Outbound Lighting Hangover --- Discussion ---- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Outbound Lighting Hangover --- Discussion ---



    We heard you.

    We know you wanted a self-contained helmet light for a long time.

    We know we can improve on what’s out there. We can be lighter, charge faster, and maintain the output more consistently.

    So we set out to develop a light, and like the Trail and Road Edition, we thought about a helmet light from the ground up rather than adapting an existing light to fit the role.
    Outbound Lighting Hangover --- Discussion ----hangover-helmet-side-view.jpg



    This is how we did it:

    For starters, we developed the optic in-house, from the ground up. You can’t have a great light without a great optic, so we put hundreds of hours into simulation and prototypes to develop a beam pattern that fills your entire field of view with the light you need, not just a spot down the trail.

    The silicone TIR optic uses microfacets to finely tune the beam shape, eliminating the typical “round hotspot” edges by redirecting portions of the beam to where you need it most, creating a dramatically smoother beam. Creating a Light Carpet around your periphery allows you to see and react to the whole trail and not get “tunnel vision” with harsh edges. The smoother the beam, the less strain on your eyes, the better you can see and the more comfortable your night ride is.





    Then we focused on packaging. We absolutely wanted this to be the slimmest and lightest light on the market. So light you don't even notice it on your head. So we put the battery sideways, used lightweight magnesium for the heat sink, lightweight optical silicone for the lens, and an over-molded poly-carbonate shell to form the top half.

    The result is an incredible 100 grams total weight. Absolutely unheard of for a high powered light.

    Combine that featherweight with the fact that we can run this light at 2 hours of runtime and you start to wonder what else you could possibly need.



    No excuses anymore: Full charge in 1 hour

    Think for a second, how many times have you or a friend said “I can’t ride tonight, I forgot to charge my lights.” Typical bike lights take 3 hours to charge IF you paid for the “fast charge” feature, 6 hours if you didn’t.

    With the Hangover, you can get an hour of runtime in just 30 minutes, and a full charge in an hour thanks to standard USB-C charging. That means you can plug it in while you’re getting ready, or driving to the trail, and be ready to go.




    American Made Quality.

    Like the Trail and Road Edition, these lights are built in our Chicago workshop. We put a massive amount of engineering work into making sure we can assemble our lights quickly, accurately, and with the highest quality to ensure that we keep production stateside for years to come. Backed with a no-questions-asked warranty and amazing customer service. We want you to be a customer, a friend, and an Outbound rider for life.



    What is included?


    • Hangover Light
    • USB-C charging cable
    • GoPro Helmet Mount


    Outbound Lighting Hangover --- Discussion ----hangover-iso-view.jpg
    Prototype shown:




    Much like the Kickstarter we ran a year and a half ago to start Outbound Lighting, we are running a limited pre-order with the greatest savings to be had if you pre-order before June 25th.

    We are running our pre-order for $99 with free shipping. MSRP will be $140 when we are shipping in the fall. Like Kickstarter we will be sending out updates as they arise for production and launching.

    https://www.outboundlighting.com/hangover/

    This light definitely represents an evolution in our product design. We've learned a lot since the first launch of the Focal Series last year. This is designed to be the perfect compliment to the Trail Edition.

    The beam pattern is not as wide as the trail, but provides the extra punch that many have wanted. We are not resorting to crazy output charts to try and have peak numbers that look great for marketing, instead relying on what made the Trail and Road Edition great, the beam pattern, simple UI, and great runtimes.

    The USB-C charging is the another massively great feature. Can get 1 hour of runtime with 30 minutes of charging, a full charge in 60 minutes. The battery is a high quality LG Chem 18650 that is paired well with our driver to provide not only a quick charge, but also a good, steady and predictable discharge.

    The part assembly was reduced a lot compared to the Focal Edition, which helps us bring the cost down (also going from 4 batteries to 1), we can make these much quicker as we intend for this to be a better product than the Lumina, Urban, and other self-contained battery options out there.

    The feel of the light is amazing. The TPU overmold that not only helps waterproof the light entirely, also feels extremely high quality, won't slip in your hands, and is easy to work with. Super proud of how nice this light feels.

    The mounting allows for this to tuck closely to the helmet, keeping weight close to your head as well as out of harms way from branches and foliage. The total weight is 100g, for reference a GoPro Hero5 with the frame to mount things is 140g.

    Want to get in on the pre-order? Here's a direct link:

    https://www.outboundlighting.com/product/hangover/

    Let me know any questions you may have!

  2. #2
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    Sounds great! Is the battery user replaceable/swappable? Inaccessible & sealed inside? Proprietary? Beamshots available?

    -Garry

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    Quote Originally Posted by garrybunk View Post
    Sounds great! Is the battery user replaceable/swappable? Inaccessible & sealed inside? Proprietary? Beamshots available?

    -Garry
    Battery will be replaceable. Not field replaceable or hot swappable but easy enough to do on a kitchen table with the right tools (M2 Hex bit). The connector is an actual connector, not soldered joints.

    That reminds me of another point. You'll be able to use the light while charging. Aka run a battery pack on your helmet and have it feed this light to really have some crazy runtimes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    Battery will be replaceable. Not field replaceable or hot swappable but easy enough to do on a kitchen table with the right tools (M2 Hex bit). The connector is an actual connector, not soldered joints.

    That reminds me of another point. You'll be able to use the light while charging. Aka run a battery pack on your helmet and have it feed this light to really have some crazy runtimes.
    Use while charging..... now that is super cool.

    Awesome. Ok, now redesign the trial and the road to be self contained with the same option to be used while charging. . That would be icing on the cake to have all the lights self contented and the user can Make the decision if they need super long times then they can connect a charging battery pack like Anker etc.

  5. #5
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    Any beam shots? I want throw with a helmet light, can you compare this to say an X2 w/spot optics?

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    Quote Originally Posted by cue003 View Post
    Use while charging..... now that is super cool.

    Awesome. Ok, now redesign the trial and the road to be self contained with the same option to be used while charging. . That would be icing on the cake to have all the lights self contented and the user can Make the decision if they need super long times then they can connect a charging battery pack like Anker etc.
    Thumbs up for this, that would be realy awesome! Even though i already have road light! What i realy expect from Matt in the future is a road light with a high and low beam and a remote. And with something like mentioned above ofc.
    Great job being in the 100g weight
    Light looks great, i have no doubts in the quality.
    I dont do mtb right now but this light looks so nice and i am a big fan of your work so i just might get it anyway

    Sent from my SM-N910C using Tapatalk

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    What is the estimated date these will be available/shipping?

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    I see the mode button is top mounted which is perfect . I may have missed it but am interested in what the IU program is, 3 or 4 mode levels @ what output levels? Light must be very efficient to get 2 hrs. @ 850 lumens from a single 3350 18650 battery which should also squeeze bonus time out of whatever power source was being used for the USB charging while in operation feature making for some super long runtimes! Curious if you think the beam pattern will also work well if the light is bar mounted? I'm impressed! Transferring money to my paypal account. Just need to decide if one of these will be enough.
    Mole

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    Standard USB charging meaning USB-PD?

    I think you nailed the price, looks great! Charging while running and using USB is a great feature

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    Outbound Lighting Hangover --- Discussion ---

    It looks great and I will be ordering one at least. But will you offer any package deals? With your other lights or maybe buy two get better pricing? Before I order just wanna get the best deal I can. not that the pre-order deal isn’t great just like to know options. Thanks.
    Last edited by jeremy_burke; 4 Weeks Ago at 02:07 AM.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRMOLE View Post
    I see the mode button is top mounted which is perfect . I may have missed it but am interested in what the IU program is, 3 or 4 mode levels @ what output levels? Light must be very efficient to get 2 hrs. @ 850 lumens from a single 3350 18650 battery . . .
    Mole
    Hmm . . . I missed the 850 lumens spec. I know lumens aren't everything (and Matt has proven this), BUT I am wondering if the 850 max is going to be enough, coupled with the fact that this 850 lumens is being spread out to create that "light carpet" and not all focused down the trail? I'm 'wondering how this will compare to a dual XM-L2 light with spot optics pushing 1200 to 1500 lumens.

    Field replaceable/swappable battery would have been great, but I'll accept the ability to run from a USB power bank.

    -Garry
    "My Bike Lights" Thread on BLF teardowns, measurements, and beamshots. Moving my photos, PM or post up if you can't see them.

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    I'll try to get all the answers here in a bit. But please keep in mind that the design target for this light was to compete with the typical self contained lights on the market. A light head with 1500 lumens and an external battery will be better than this, no doubt. That's why the Road Edition is still a great light to have on the head for maximum performance.

    We had dozens, if not hundreds of people saying they wanted a light without an external battery pack. So this is our first answer, as well as hitting a lower price point. We didn't comprise on the driver setup or LEDs. The savings comes from less batteries, no wall charger, no case, cheaper shipping, better part consolidation and insanely fast assembly time.

    We also aren't resulting to the typical "start blindingly high and pull power fast" tactics that many manufacturers do to get high lumen numbers. All our numbers are calculated with steady state burn or very close to it. So when you turn on the light you aren't going to lose 50% of that claimed lumens in 10 minutes. That's why I hate the FL1 standard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    I'll try to get all the answers here in a bit. But please keep in mind that the design target for this light was to compete with the typical self contained lights on the market. A light head with 1500 lumens and an external battery will be better than this, no doubt.
    Nice work, Matt. I ordered mine already, based on my experience with being a backer and user of the Trail Edition light. I like the less is more philosophy of maximizing performance with better engineering. That said, I am happy with the performance of my current Gloworm X2 helmet light and I have never been a fan of self contained lights for off-road use. But for only 10g more than the X2 lighthead, I am looking forward to seeing how the Hangover compares and what it's limitations are. Even if it doesn't supplant the X2 as my primary helmet light I will definitely have a use for it. It may become my usual first choice, or an option for certain trails and conditions, or for urban rides. Choices are good, and the correct number of lights to choose from is always n+1.

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    Seems like a nice work Matt! Looking forward to see some beam shots! What is the color temperature of the CREE's, cool white or more towards neutral white? How does the color temperature compare to the focal series? Do you plan to offer a warm or neutral white and cold white version? Furthermore, is your new light airtight or similar to the focal series equipped with a membrane? I am tempted to order the light although i do not have the need for it..

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    How does the mount affix to the helmet?

    I may have missed it in the description.

    The photos on the website make it appear as if the mount attaches with sticky tape.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    ........We also aren't resulting to the typical "start blindingly high and pull power fast" tactics that many manufacturers do to get high lumen numbers. All our numbers are calculated with steady state burn or very close to it. So when you turn on the light you aren't going to lose 50% of that claimed lumens in 10 minutes. That's why I hate the FL1 standard.
    Thank you for that!!!!

    One of my pet peeves is that some big name light manufacturers pull that stunt. Deceptive at best, IMO, dishonest.
    GoPro adapters for bike lights http://www.pacifier.com/~kevinb/index.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by phalkon30 View Post
    Standard USB charging meaning USB-PD?

    I think you nailed the price, looks great! Charging while running and using USB is a great feature
    Here's a response from the EE on the USB charging side:

    "We're not using USB PD (Power Delivery), we're using USB QC (Quick Charge) protocol. QC enables 5V/3A charging from a large range of chargers without any weirdness in the communication, so if you have a USB charger than can put out 15W, you'll get full power no matter what. PD would be great to reduce charge times even further, but the protocol is much more inconsistent depending on brand, which would reduce the number of chargers that would be truly compatible with our fast charging rate. Meanwhile, any PD-capable charger should also work at 5V/3A with the Hangover. We wanted to make it easy for anyone to find a charger and have it work as advertised, so QC is a better path for the majority of users."

  18. #18
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    Alright, Q&A time since now have a few minutes to spare:

    Any beam shots? I want throw with a helmet light, can you compare this to say an X2 w/spot optics?
    Once we have the final optic nailed down we'll be doing beam shots. On version 3 right now. An X2 with spot optics will still be more powerful given that it's an external battery, and narrow punch, not really in the same class. Our optic is more like a Lumina 1200 in terms of peak power, but it's a gradient falloff with the light carpet so much like the Trail, your eye can pick up a lot more without that tunnel effect that narrow high power spot lights give you

    We are targeting the Lumina, Urban, Buster, and those single cell internal battery lights on the market with this price point and functionality. This is what the majority of the feedback has been, "love your lights, but hate external batteries".

    What is the estimated date these will be available/shipping?
    Targeting early fall. I am extremely hesitant to give our an exact date or week since shit happens. However definitely learned from last year and we'll have plenty on hand for the fall rush! But think around September.

    Curious if you think the beam pattern will also work well if the light is bar mounted?
    If people are already happy with a Lumina or Urban on the bars (which I've seen a ton of at night races) then this will be a great step up. One of these on the bars and one on the helmet will be a great setup for sure.

    t looks great and I will be ordering one at least. But will you offer any package deals? With your other lights or maybe buy two get better pricing? Before I order just wanna get the best deal I can. not that the pre-order deal isn’t great just like to know options. Thanks.
    When we get closer we will probably offer some package deals. Right now just trying to keep things simple. In all honesty the package deal will probably still be similar to buying a Trail/Road at normal price now, and the pre-ordered light, so around $300 total vs when we launch the two together would be around $340 if bought individually.

    I know lumens aren't everything (and Matt has proven this), BUT I am wondering if the 850 max is going to be enough, coupled with the fact that this 850 lumens is being spread out to create that "light carpet" and not all focused down the trail? I'm 'wondering how this will compare to a dual XM-L2 light with spot optics pushing 1200 to 1500 lumens.
    The major difference is all about the lighting quality. As many have experienced with our current lights, having the smooth falloff makes a massive difference vs the sharp dropoff that a typical bowl reflector light from NR, L&M, MS, etc. provide. The Trail is a very broad and wide even illumination, while this optic is designed with a peaky punch, but very smooth gradient falloff. Here is a picture of it in simulation. For reference... the peak intensity is similar to the NR Boost 1200, except won't see any rings, and a wider falloff.

    Outbound Lighting Hangover --- Discussion ----beam-pattern1.jpg

    Can also notice the trapezodial shape that forms the light carpet down below. When the light is mounted on the helmet generally can't see more than 15* above the horizion line, so can see how shifted the light energy around to give some width, but shift the less intense parts of the light from stuff that'd just go into the trees, and putting it more on the ground in front of you.

    The whole image was designed around the light following your head in a fixed position, while the Trail was designed so as your handlebars moved you wouldn't lose sight of what you were looking at, so the peak intensity of the Trail is much lower for the tradeoff of very wide illumination.

    Another challenge when looking at false image renderings of beam patterns like above is that you might think that you'd still see a really peaky circular spot since the red is so dominant, but that's why we also look at the cross-sectional curves of log intensity because that's how our eyes perceive lighting. So when I design the optic I tweak things so that we have a smooth cross-sectional profile in all ranges. This is the stuff that takes hours of tweaking and simulating, if not days. Combined I'd say I spent about 100-150 hours of design, simulation, and tweaking to get this optic where I felt comfortable.

    What is the color temperature of the CREE's, cool white or more towards neutral white? How does the color temperature compare to the focal series? Do you plan to offer a warm or neutral white and cold white version? Furthermore, is your new light airtight or similar to the focal series equipped with a membrane?
    The temperature will be looking to match the Focal, so more on the neutral to warm side of the lights. No plans to offer different colors as that is such a minor part of the market (you guys, who want different temperature options) that it'd be a big ask for us to stock various PCB inventory and SKU's, as well as different assembly tracking to try and meet that desire. This is the light that I hope to scale and eventually find in every bike shop in the country, so assembly speed, costs, packaging, etc are extremely crucial if we are going to keep production in house.

    The housing is airtight, have learned from Focal and figured out how to improve it even better. Paying a lot upfront for better tooling and processes. The entire upper housing is going to be overmolded TPU on a PC frame, this lets us integrate the button, status light, seal, frame, and give a great GoPro-like soft-touch feel into one part that is completely waterproof.

    One of my pet peeves is that some big name light manufacturers pull that stunt. Deceptive at best, IMO, dishonest.
    Indeed. It's literally one of the most frustrating things to explain to customers. Some people notice it right away, and others don't because their eyes adjust to the light quickly. The other "runtime" standard of FL1 is also stupid IMO since it's the whole "within 10% of original output". When we say 2 hours of runtime we are calculating that we'll have around 75% of original output before it conks out. So more than likely we'll have 2 hours and then do the typical drop-down-to-get-home sort of like the current Focal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post

    One of my pet peeves is that some big name light manufacturers pull that stunt. Deceptive at best, IMO, dishonest.
    Indeed. It's literally one of the most frustrating things to explain to customers. Some people notice it right away, and others don't because their eyes adjust to the light quickly. The other "runtime" standard of FL1 is also stupid IMO since it's the whole "within 10% of original output". When we say 2 hours of runtime we are calculating that we'll have around 75% of original output before it conks out. So more than likely we'll have 2 hours and then do the typical drop-down-to-get-home sort of like the current Focal.
    I appreciate that your standards are higher than those of the FL1. I understand that a lot of the larger manufacturers feel they have to "play the game" for maximum marketing advantage but loose FL1 standards allow for output/runtime claims that are extremely inflated from actual usable performance at the expense of the unsuspecting customer. Surprisingly some people don't seem to care at all but I think they're probably more interested in lighting from a utility point of view (price/reliability/adequate illumination) rather than its performance capabilities. I fall into the later category so again, appreciate your honest output and runtime claims. Ordered 2 "Hangovers" this morning!
    Mole

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    Quote Originally Posted by MRMOLE View Post
    I appreciate that your standards are higher than those of the FL1. I understand that a lot of the larger manufacturers feel they have to "play the game" for maximum marketing advantage but loose FL1 standards allow for output/runtime claims that are extremely inflated from actual usable performance at the expense of the unsuspecting customer. Surprisingly some people don't seem to care at all but I think they're probably more interested in lighting from a utility point of view (price/reliability/adequate illumination) rather than its performance capabilities. I fall into the later category so again, appreciate your honest output and runtime claims. Ordered 2 "Hangovers" this morning!
    Mole
    Yep, I agree with you. I think more customers are going off of word-of-mouth and recommendations rather than just straight stat comparisons these days. In the automotive side of things it used to be lumen dominated, then more education came out about why Lumens didn't really matter and examples of how bad some claims were exaggerated, and now more people focus on light quality and such. I feel like the biking side of things is starting to get around to that, though we aren't totally there yet.

    Plus, honestly, from the customer service side of things I've always been one to underpromise and overdeliver when I can. Creates a happy customer, and makes my job easier. Same thing for reliablity. Thankfully I hardly spend anytime on customer returns or dealing with frustrated customers because we set a standard fairly high for our lights to be reliable and trouble-free. Sure it costs us about 10-15% more in component costs, but if it means my time dedicated for customer service is only about 1-2 hours a week then I'll take that cost increase any day of the week. Shipping returns, new product, troubleshooting, etc all costs a lot of money. Not to mention the time suck.

    Was another one of those lessons learned from working with a company that valued part cost over reliability and stuff. Saw how much waste there was when the owner only valued how much he was paying for parts at the beginning of the life-cycle. Was maddening!

    Appreciate the order!

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    Is this light helmet mount only? I thought you mentioned that a bar mount would be included as well and it could be used on helmet and bar?

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    Quote Originally Posted by cue003 View Post
    Is this light helmet mount only? I thought you mentioned that a bar mount would be included as well and it could be used on helmet and bar?
    It is designed with helmet mounting primarily, and will come with a gopro helmet mount. We have a bar mount that is in design that we may be able to include, however since it's just a typical GoPro mounting tab, any kind of bar mount available for GoPro's will work perfectly with this.

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    Nice looking light. Reminds me of the Specialized Flux 900/1200, but from what you've written, better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfTheHill View Post
    Nice looking light. Reminds me of the Specialized Flux 900/1200, but from what you've written, better.
    I would say the Flux is more in line with the Road Edition, except the Road edition obliterates the Flux. I was shocked at how poor the cutoff line was when I got one to take apart. It is mostly due to the combination of small optic and big LED die, which makes light harder to control.

    -----------

    As for Hangover, we've been amazed at the pre-order volume. Little over 200 preorders in less than a week. Blows away what we did for the Kickstarter on Focal. Still running the 30% off until June 25th, then will be 20%, then 10% then full MSRP once we are shipping. So earlier the better!

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    Maybe I missed this, but are there variable settings, so, for example, you can run at middle or low power settings to extend battery life?

    My application is 24-hour solo racing, and needing to manage my lights and batteries/charge through the night.

    I currently run a L&M Seca 2000 on the bars (middle setting) and a Gemini Xera on my helmet (middle setting), and that combo gives me ~6 and 3+ hours of battery life, respectively.

    TIA...your lights sound pretty cool.


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    Thanks for answering all these questions!
    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    Alright, Q&A time since now have a few minutes to spare[...]
    The temperature will be looking to match the Focal, so more on the neutral to warm side of the lights. No plans to offer different colors as that is such a minor part of the market (you guys, who want different temperature options)[....]
    From my point of view, the warmer the better, at least if you want to get more details i.e. in the woods. Most lights (car lights as well) are too much on the cold white side for my liking.
    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    [....]The housing is airtight, have learned from Focal and figured out how to improve it even better[...]
    This is good to hear!
    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    [....]the other "runtime" standard of FL1 is also stupid IMO since it's the whole "within 10% of original output". When we say 2 hours of runtime we are calculating that we'll have around 75% of original output before it conks out. So more than likely we'll have 2 hours and then do the typical drop-down-to-get-home sort of like the current Focal.[....]
    IMHo the only viable thing is to give the power drain of each mode and the battery capacity. Then one can do simply math to get the runtimes. I do not understand why so many companies do not give the power consumption of ther UI modes. Probably because the "cheat"
    Based on the battery and runtime the hangover on full power should use 5 to 6 W?
    Regarding the drop down: You might consider a mode to override the drop down mode completely (i.e. press the button very long). It is a very good feature, but i personally find it annoying that one cannot override the get home mode in the focal series, if wanted. You could also implement a short flashing sequence of the light once the battery drops below i.e. 15% capacity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    I would say the Flux is more in line with the Road Edition, except the Road edition obliterates the Flux. I was shocked at how poor the cutoff line was when I got one to take apart. It is mostly due to the combination of small optic and big LED die, which makes light harder to control.
    Ha, this piece of information explains why the STVZO version of the flux has only ~300 lm, as they probably had to change the die...

    Quote Originally Posted by waltaz View Post
    Maybe I missed this, but are there variable settings, so, for example, you can run at middle or low power settings to extend battery life?[....]
    in the specs on the outbound webpage runtimes are given 2...16 hr. However not given how many modes will be available.

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    Quote Originally Posted by waltaz View Post
    Maybe I missed this, but are there variable settings, so, for example, you can run at middle or low power settings to extend battery life?

    My application is 24-hour solo racing, and needing to manage my lights and batteries/charge through the night.

    I currently run a L&M Seca 2000 on the bars (middle setting) and a Gemini Xera on my helmet (middle setting), and that combo gives me ~6 and 3+ hours of battery life, respectively.

    TIA...your lights sound pretty cool.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    Yep, we'll have the standard High-Medium-Low. Right now the High 2 hour target was the design intent, and then we'll figure out the Low setting based on what's comfortable during climbing and then figure the medium setting to be what's visually in between high and low.

    With the way our beam patterns are designed, it's often not as simple as pointing at the datasheet and saying "50% power". For example, on the Trail Edition there is a medium-high mode that is actually 20% less power draw than the high, butttttt it's nearly impossible to tell the mode changed because of the way our eyes perceive light, especially wide broad even lighting.

    So with that in mind, it's going to be real-world testing that'll determine the best balance of brightness and runtime.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by biking_tg View Post
    IMHo the only viable thing is to give the power drain of each mode and the battery capacity. Then one can do simply math to get the runtimes. I do not understand why so many companies do not give the power consumption of ther UI modes. Probably because the "cheat"
    Based on the battery and runtime the hangover on full power should use 5 to 6 W?

    Regarding the drop down: You might consider a mode to override the drop down mode completely (i.e. press the button very long). It is a very good feature, but i personally find it annoying that one cannot override the get home mode in the focal series, if wanted. You could also implement a short flashing sequence of the light once the battery drops below i.e. 15% capacity.


    Ha, this piece of information explains why the STVZO version of the flux has only ~300 lm, as they probably had to change the die...
    Well, runtime is a tricky bitch. Lots of variables including battery age, temperature, cycles and more. Then the fact that the power draw is not always constant (this is where a well designed driver with quality components becomes crucial) means that approximating runtime is always a kind of moving target. Best solution for it is obviously an LCD readout, which is something I hope to be able to work in one of these days.

    We'll definitely take into account the override, that's something we got a lot of feedback on from our first lights.

    ---------

    One of the great things to happen recently was getting Tom "Danger" Place onboard with Outbound. He's a former CREE R&D labs manager and certified bike light nut. You might have seen his name on some articles such as this: https://www.pinkbike.com/news/ridden...ke-lights.html

    Because he's super knowledgeable with the LED and driver side of things, as well as having his hands on almost every bike light out there, he's been able to help elevate the electrical and programming side of OL. Prior to him I paid a contractor an hourly rate to do the development. So it was often done to my specs and not much chance to try out new things, or implement cool features.

    With Tom onboard he's got a lot of great ideas for Hangover as well as our future products. It's been great collaboration! He's been continually pushing myself (and himself) to make the best damn light we can, not because of the money, but because he uses these lights on a nearly daily basis out in AZ and wants to address all the shortfalls of lights he's used (and built) in the past.

    ----------

    Regarding the StVZO lumen levels, I doubt they changed the die, what they probably ended up having to do was to reduce the brightness to just pass the certification because there is a maximum amount of light above the "cutoff" that is allowed. And if they have a crap blurry cutoff then need to pull the brightness to meet that requirement. The minimum brightness for the hotspot is laughably easy to hit even with 100 lumens.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    Yep, we'll have the standard High-Medium-Low. Right now the High 2 hour target was the design intent, and then we'll figure out the Low setting based on what's comfortable during climbing and then figure the medium setting to be what's visually in between high and low.

    With the way our beam patterns are designed, it's often not as simple as pointing at the datasheet and saying "50% power". For example, on the Trail Edition there is a medium-high mode that is actually 20% less power draw than the high, butttttt it's nearly impossible to tell the mode changed because of the way our eyes perceive light, especially wide broad even lighting.

    So with that in mind, it's going to be real-world testing that'll determine the best balance of brightness and runtime.
    Thanks for the response! I need to try these out...


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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    Yep, we'll have the standard High-Medium-Low. Right now the High 2 hour target was the design intent, and then we'll figure out the Low setting based on what's comfortable during climbing and then figure the medium setting to be what's visually in between high and low.

    With the way our beam patterns are designed, it's often not as simple as pointing at the datasheet and saying "50% power". For example, on the Trail Edition there is a medium-high mode that is actually 20% less power draw than the high, butttttt it's nearly impossible to tell the mode changed because of the way our eyes perceive light, especially wide broad even lighting.

    So with that in mind, it's going to be real-world testing that'll determine the best balance of brightness and runtime.
    Matt,
    That sounds fine for light output levels. My suggestion for possible UI program would be to match the pattern used on the Sigma Buster 700. Simple 4 level hi/med/low/flash program that starts out in high and single clicks to the next lowest level ending in the flash mode with another single click to return to high. Additionally double clicking in high takes it to low and double clicking in med and low returns the light to high. End result is the flash mode can be isolated from main program by using the double click option when in low, high is a double click away when in med or low, and when in high a double click will take you to low to deal with oncoming traffic. Very simple easy to use program that covers the needs of both road and mtn. biking and my favorite UI of all the 40 or so lights I currently have. Don't know if you have access to this light to try it out but currently pretty cheap on Amazon ($53). Curious what you think!
    Mole

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRMOLE View Post
    Matt,
    That sounds fine for light output levels. My suggestion for possible UI program would be to match the pattern used on the Sigma Buster 700. Simple 4 level hi/med/low/flash program that starts out in high and single clicks to the next lowest level ending in the flash mode with another single click to return to high. Additionally double clicking in high takes it to low and double clicking in med and low returns the light to high. End result is the flash mode can be isolated from main program by using the double click option when in low, high is a double click away when in med or low, and when in high a double click will take you to low to deal with oncoming traffic. Very simple easy to use program that covers the needs of both road and mtn. biking and my favorite UI of all the 40 or so lights I currently have. Don't know if you have access to this light to try it out but currently pretty cheap on Amazon ($53). Curious what you think!
    Mole
    I did grab a Sigma to have in the arsenal of lights to test against. It's an alright light. Compared directly with a Lumina or an urban it's a better deal (can't stand how plasticy it feels though, they really should radii the tool to avoid the sharp edges). However we (myself and Tom) literally cannot stand any light that cycles through a flashing mode. Like the Trail & Road, there will be some flash modes that are separate from the main lighting mode. A triple-click or something similar will get into a flashing mode.

    Now that I have sold all my cars and relying solely on my bike for delivering lights to the Post Office, road lighting and use has become pretty important to me. I'll definitely be using my Road light obviously, but also want to use the Hangover flash modes for DRL stuff.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    I did grab a Sigma to have in the arsenal of lights to test against. It's an alright light. Compared directly with a Lumina or an urban it's a better deal (can't stand how plasticy it feels though, they really should radii the tool to avoid the sharp edges). However we (myself and Tom) literally cannot stand any light that cycles through a flashing mode.
    Light is definitely different looking, I happen to like it but can see personal taste would factor in on this light. I also hate having to cycle through the flash mode but you don't have to with the Buster unless you choose to do so. When in low you get to flash with a single click but a double click in low will skip over flash and take you to high. My first ride with the Buster I was excited to get out to try the light and didn't really get the UI (not complicated I was just lazy about reading instructions). After actually using the double click feature(s) on a ride I find it works great. Want a 3 level trail program, single click from high to med and med to low and double click back to high (or return to high from med if low is not usable for your trail). Want a hi/low road/path program just double click from high to low and back to high with another double click.
    Mole

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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    For example, on the Trail Edition there is a medium-high mode that is actually 20% less power draw than the high, butttttt it's nearly impossible to tell the mode changed because of the way our eyes perceive light, especially wide broad even lighting.

    So with that in mind, it's going to be real-world testing that'll determine the best balance of brightness and runtime.
    Agree with you. IMHO the medium-high mode on the focal road edition in the current programming is not needed, as there is barely a perceivable difference. I find the drop between medium-high to medium a bit to much, i miss a mode in between, i.e. one which directly switches to the (constant output) of the adaptive mode, and the medium mode could then be a bit lower.

    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    Well, runtime is a tricky bitch. Lots of variables including battery age, temperature, cycles and more.
    Of course, but with the massive spread of mobile phones each kiddo knows batteries deterioate with time, so a run time is of course only valid with a fresh battery and at ambient temperature (although this is not so well known....) But then being a trained electrochemist, i might be too optimistic about battery knowledge of "normal" folks.

    Any chances for a real beam shot before June 25th?
    Last edited by biking_tg; 2 Weeks Ago at 02:45 AM.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by biking_tg View Post
    Agree with you. IMHO the medium-high mode on the focal road edition in the current programming is not needed, as there is barely a perceivable difference. I find the drop between medium-high to medium a bit to much, i miss a mode which also directly to set the (constant output) of the adaptive mode, and the medium mode could be a bit lower.


    Of course, but with the massive spread of mobile phones each kiddo knows batteries deterioate with time, so a run time is of course only valid with a fresh battery and at ambient temperature (although this is not so well known....) But then being a trained electrochemist, i might be too optimistic about battery knowledge of "normal" folks.

    Any chances for a real beam shot before June 25th?
    Hoping to have the production lens within a few weeks. So a hard.... maybe? As soon as I get some and are happy with it we'll definitely post up. We got the production started on the lens early on just in case we do need to make some changes. The other hard parts won't effect the actual output

  35. #35
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    I have ordered 2 of these lights. Just had a thought. Is this helmet light more designed to compliment the road light or the trail light? I want more trail night riding with secondary street use and don’t want to get smacked in the head by branches etc on the trail due to “road” style hard cutoff. The description mentions trail but I just want some clarity.

    If I wanted to run one on the helmet and one on the bars is that doable?

    Lastly if mounted on bars using appropriate go pro mount will light performance suffer significantly if mounted upside down (under a Garmin bike computer)??

  36. #36
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    I hate to be the kill-joy in this discussion but I have my doubts on just how useful this type of light is going to be. However I do like the idea that it is self contained, can run / charge USB-C at the same time AND has the potential for battery switch-out. The reason for my skepticism is because this light is suppose to be designed as a helmet lamp. Now if you are using this for mountain biking and like to ride fast on the downhills then this lamp is not going to give you the throw needed or desired by most. It should however be the absolute "Bee's knee's"* if you are the type of person who just uses a typical single cell torch on the helmet. Most of my 18650 type torches typically work very well on the helmet when MTB'n but most of the ones I have that are very bright ( over 900 lm ) will over-heat if left on high or power down automatically by design after a set short number of minutes ( two minutes or less ). Assuming that that Hangover can maintain it's highest output full time over most of it's est. runtime I find this design feature very refreshing and should make for a great selling point if it actually does what it claims to do.

    For road, although I do use a very good thrower torch on helmet I only use it for moments at a time and the ONLY reason I still carry it along is because it has absolutely KILLER throw ( over 300-400 ft. depending on conditions ) This degree of throw comes in very handy when riding at high speeds. Most people ( IMO ) aren't going to use a helmet light full time on the road so as I see it this should attract the person who is likely using a bright light on the bars but just wants something more to compliment the bar light when MTB'n. As I've said before I take the opposite approach; bright bar lamp but a much brighter helmet lamp.

    Now with all this said if I was the type of MTBer who started rides in the early evening while it was still enough daylight to see by but wanted something to help me get back after if got dark ( or just did two hour night rides ), this new helmet light would be perfect; particularly if say you are running something like a Raveman PR-1200 or new 1600 ( both self contained lamps ) on the bars and then the Outbound Hangover on the helmet. Of course if you ran the MTB version of the original Outbound lamp on the bars the beam tints would likely be very similar ( or so I would like to think ) and output with the original Outbound lamps should be brighter than the Raveman's.

    I am surprised that many are pulling the trigger on this new lamp so fast so obviously not everyone thinks the way that I do. I'm more the "wait and see" type of guy unless I'm really convinced that the the lamp will do what the manufacturer claims it will do. With newer designs I tend to be more, "wait and see".
    Last edited by Cat-man-do; 2 Weeks Ago at 07:20 PM.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by cue003 View Post
    I have ordered 2 of these lights. Just had a thought. Is this helmet light more designed to compliment the road light or the trail light? I want more trail night riding with secondary street use and don’t want to get smacked in the head by branches etc on the trail due to “road” style hard cutoff. The description mentions trail but I just want some clarity.

    If I wanted to run one on the helmet and one on the bars is that doable?

    Lastly if mounted on bars using appropriate go pro mount will light performance suffer significantly if mounted upside down (under a Garmin bike computer)??
    This is definitely designed around the Trail Edition on the handlebars. Though I certainly intend to use the light on my head while I commute in Chicago on low or flashing DRL to act as a "see me" light in addition to the Road on the handlebars.

    Definitely doable. I know lots of people often run two of the same lamps both on the head and helmet.

    The performance hit won't be as drastic as the Trail or Road mounted upside down, since this is certainly far more spotty, but more of a trapezodial pattern as you can see in some of the pictures posted earlier in this thread. Testing will determine whether it really is a bad idea or not.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do View Post
    I hate to be the kill-joy in this discussion but I have my doubts on just how useful this type of light is going to be. However I do like the idea that it is self contained, can run / charge USB-C at the same time AND has the potential for battery switch-out. The reason for my skepticism is because this light is suppose to be designed as a helmet lamp. Now if you are using this for mountain biking and like to ride fast on the downhills then this lamp is not going to give you the throw needed or desired by most. It should however be the absolute "Bee's knee's"* if you are the type of person who just uses a typical single cell torch on the helmet. Most of my 18650 type torches typically work very well on the helmet when MTB'n but most of the ones I have that are very bright ( over 900 lm ) will over-heat if left on high or power down automatically by design after a set short number of minutes ( two minutes or less ). Assuming that that Hanover can maintain it's highest output full time over most of it's est. runtime I find this design feature very refreshing and should make for a great selling point if it actually does what it claims to do.
    You bring up a good point about the thermals. This is where almost every single self-contained high power light on the market falls short. Why? Because they are putting an incredibly intense heat source deep inside a poorly designed housing that can't take the heat or shed it fast enough.

    Notice how we have 6 LED's? This isn't an aesthetic design choice. It started out as a thermal requirement. We are able to get the 800-900 lumen target by deliberately under-driving the CREE XQ-E HI LED's so that they run cooler and more efficiently. Then by spreading that heat load out across the entire face of the light (along with a direct thermal path to the large magnesium outer shell) means that the thermals are actually able to maintain the output easily compared to a high power single die LED that's being overdriven past it's nominal ratings and can only last 2 minutes to meet that magical FL1 spec, and then pull power and crap out fast in order to have any kind of usable runtime.

    So once you look past the "only 800-900" lumens and realize that we are serious about how to maintain that output even in hot climates (Tom the EE rides regularly in Sedona, AZ and is out every night in the desert) along with getting rid of the marketing B.S. numbers and focusing solely on how to make a great light, then can probably start to see why people are excited about this.

    I'll share what Tom had posted on his social media when we launched the pre-order. It is why we both get along very well and agree on many things when it comes to quality and getting through the B.S. We are both engineers more focused on making a product we are proud of, and will use everyday then we are on making large amount of profit. If we wanted to make a quick buck would make another single-die internal LED flashlight, call it the greatest thing ever, put cheap batteries in it, and delete any negative comments that came our way.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Outbound Lighting Hangover --- Discussion ----tom1.png  


  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    You bring up a good point about the thermals. This is where almost every single self-contained high power light on the market falls short. Why? Because they are putting an incredibly intense heat source deep inside a poorly designed housing that can't take the heat or shed it fast enough.

    Notice how we have 6 LED's? This isn't an aesthetic design choice. It started out as a thermal requirement. We are able to get the 800-900 lumen target by deliberately under-driving the CREE XQ-E HI LED's so that they run cooler and more efficiently. Then by spreading that heat load out across the entire face of the light (along with a direct thermal path to the large magnesium outer shell) means that the thermals are actually able to maintain the output easily compared to a high power single die LED that's being overdriven past it's nominal ratings and can only last 2 minutes to meet that magical FL1 spec, and then pull power and crap out fast in order to have any kind of usable runtime.

    So once you look past the "only 800-900" lumens and realize that we are serious about how to maintain that output even in hot climates (Tom the EE rides regularly in Sedona, AZ and is out every night in the desert) along with getting rid of the marketing B.S. numbers and focusing solely on how to make a great light, then can probably start to see why people are excited about this.

    I'll share what Tom had posted on his social media when we launched the pre-order. It is why we both get along very well and agree on many things when it comes to quality and getting through the B.S. We are both engineers more focused on making a product we are proud of, and will use everyday then we are on making large amount of profit. If we wanted to make a quick buck would make another single-die internal LED flashlight, call it the greatest thing ever, put cheap batteries in it, and delete any negative comments that came our way.
    Great Post! Important for me since I ride in the desert (and anyone else who rides in a warm climate). To meet your output/runtimes/consistency claims Hangover must be significantly more efficient than its competition @ max output. Looking forward to testing the light out for myself. Also happy to hear you'll getting input from Tom in the future since his riding environment is more similar to mine than the forested areas you ride in.
    Mole

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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    .....The performance hit won't be as drastic as the Trail or Road mounted upside down, since this is certainly far more spotty, but more of a trapezodial pattern as you can see in some of the pictures posted earlier in this thread. Testing will determine whether it really is a bad idea or not.
    There really would be no need to mount one upside down under a computer. Plastic mount extensions are available. Something like this....

    https://www.amazon.com/Rec-mounts-Ex.../dp/B00G4UV9JG

    If there was concern about strength of a plastic extension, I make an aluminum adapter for StVZO dyno lights to mount in the correct orientation under computers. Would not take much to tweak the design to work with this light. Then you would also keep the operating button on top for better access too.
    GoPro adapters for bike lights http://www.pacifier.com/~kevinb/index.html

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    ...Notice how we have 6 LED's? This isn't an aesthetic design choice. It started out as a thermal requirement. We are able to get the 800-900 lumen target by deliberately under-driving the CREE XQ-E HI LED's so that they run cooler and more efficiently. Then by spreading that heat load out across the entire face of the light (along with a direct thermal path to the large magnesium outer shell) means that the thermals are actually able to maintain the output easily compared to a high power single die LED that's being overdriven past it's nominal ratings and can only last 2 minutes to meet that magical FL1 spec, and then pull power and crap out fast in order to have any kind of usable runtime.

    So once you look past the "only 800-900" lumens and realize that we are serious about how to maintain that output even in hot climates (Tom the EE rides regularly in Sedona, AZ and is out every night in the desert) along with getting rid of the marketing B.S. numbers and focusing solely on how to make a great light, then can probably start to see why people are excited about this.
    Hmmm...very interesting. You are beginning to convince me ( and doing it without Jedi mind tricks...of which I am immune ) After looking at the specs on the Cree XQE-Hi I think this lamp could indeed be very successful. A lot though depends on what CCT range you chose to work with and how well you manage to get the optics to intermingle so to create that 850-900 lumen cumulative effect.

    If you are under powering the emitters I'm figuring your trying to get each to output a max of about 142-150 lumen. Should be able to do this by running each emitter @~500-600ma. Since that's almost half of the maximum recommended current I would think managing the heat should be quite doable, even in a warmer climate.

    The real question though is, "How good are you Master Jedi of the Optics at making this into a usable beam pattern that will facilitate a viable helmet lamp.

    I know I said some time ago that I probably wasn't going to buy another helmet lamp. What I failed to say then was that I didn't need a brighter lamp. This lamp is sort of a horse of a different color so to speak. I might be interested in buying one of these myself if the price is not too steep and I like the beam pattern. Of course beam tint is important too so I'd like to know ASAP what CCT or Kevin range you are aiming at using.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do View Post
    ....Of course beam tint is important too so I'd like to know ASAP what CCT or Kevin range you are aiming at using.
    Outbound wrote in Post #18 that he plans to mach the focal series in color temp, so "more on neutral to warm side", but didn't give a number.
    However in the focal series discussion he mentioned the color code of the Altilon chip (4A, datasheet says 5680 K). In a different post there (post #809) he mentioned that the light gets a bit warmer after passing the reflector and silicon lens and has in the end "mid 4000 K". He uploaded a comparison of a cold white b&m ixon with the focal.
    Can only speak for the focal road, but this light is notably warmer in direct comparison to a standard lupine (with rated 6000K LED). Haven't had the chance to compare it to a officially rated 4000K or 5000K lamp, though
    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    [...] Notice how we have 6 LED's? This isn't an aesthetic design choice. It started out as a thermal requirement. We are able to get the 800-900 lumen target by deliberately under-driving the CREE XQ-E HI LED's so that they run cooler and more efficiently.[...]
    Definitely a well designed product, accepting the penalties on weight and dimension of the bigger lamp housing (compared to a two or single die lamp) for having a more useful steady output.
    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    Hoping to have the production lens within a few weeks. So a hard.... maybe? As soon as I get some and are happy with it we'll definitely post up.[...]
    Beam shots might convince me to get one, although i am not doing much trail riding. But might come handy for smaller, more straight trails which i ride with my cyclocross bike in the woods as a supplement to my SL-F in high beam mode.
    Last edited by biking_tg; 2 Weeks Ago at 05:38 AM.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by biking_tg View Post
    Definitely a well designed product, accepting the penalties on weight and dimension of the bigger lamp housing (compared to a two or single die lamp) for having a more useful steady output.
    My design process started out by looking at a Jeep JL wrangler and the new Cherokee LED headlight. Now you won't notice what's really going on inside of it unless you look straight into the lens (while off.... please). Automotive Lighting (name of the company, will refer to it as AL) came up with a pretty unique method of projecting the light. It has 12 LED's (7 for low, 5 for high) that are focused onto the cutoff shield via TIR lenses, then the image is flipped via the large outer lens. Now this exact style of light control wasn't going to work for bikes because the focal length is too big. However in the technical papers it was mentioned about how this was an exercise in thermal control.

    Automotive headlights have one of the toughest thermal situations... It sits inside a hot engine bay, it needs to last for dozens of years, so ideally no fans or anything, yet it needs to be lightweight, cheap, dead reliable, absolutely waterproof, and yet still shed about 15-30W of heat.

    So there is a lot of analysis and tech put into how to disperse the heat and if you go searching deep enough can often find the technical whitepapers. Along with some really novel ways of doing image projection. It is why I find the field so fascinating. There is no other field of lighting that is so constrained by technical and performance regulations, yet requires innovative solutions to reach cost and styling requirements, so there is a lot of cool stuff that comes out of it.

    I had actually posted a picture of this headlight way back in October on our Instagram when I was doing the initial designs and validating my ideas. Was my source of inspiration putting this weird optic next to a single 18650 battery and having that "aha" moment of how to make this work.

    Outbound Lighting Hangover --- Discussion ----jlheadlight.png

    Before playing with the optic and that battery I was starting to go down the path of a 3 die light like the Knog, or a single die light with an innovative beam shaping single TIR optic but wasn't really happy with any of those potential avenues so I kept just sketching and thinking about it. In fact the "idea" of doing a self contained 18650 was started pretty much right after the kickstarter where I had gotten a lot of the comments of "well I would buy, but I hate external battery packs", but could never land on anything that felt unique enough to actually stand out in the sea of flashlights that I'd actually feel proud to sell.

    I didn't want to just make a Lumina, Urban, Buster clone and call it a day, I want to shake things up.

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    I like what I am seeing here. For riding in the woods at night, I think the mega-lumen lights are overkill. I don't run my lights on the highest settings, partially to preserve the batteries, but also because it kills my night vision, which at some point offsets the benefit of the extra brightness. Public road with street lights and car lights is a different scenario, but I don't ride road.

    I run a flood on the bars, and a spot on my helmet. Both beam patterns are terrible out of the box. I always thought it was a dumb way of doing things. I don't need to light up the trees or my front tire, but I do want a wider beam. I was able to swap to a wide-beam lens on my MJ helmet light, which helped greatly. The flood on the bars still stinks, so I run it on the lowest setting, and rely mostly on the helmet light.

    Looking at the illustration of the beam pattern, I think I would want it even wider and flatter, but I can't really tell without seeing it on the trail. It's definitely better than a round pattern.

    Having the option to ride with a separate battery backup for longer rides / emergencies is a big deal; good thinking there.

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    I guess it would have been too big or heavy to make it a 2x battery light and thereby increase the size of the heat sink and possibly double the output while maintaining runtime? I know it isn’t that simple hence why you are doing the designing and I am doing the armchair engineering/asking.

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    2nd time I've asked the question in this thread.

    How does the mount attach to the helmet?

    Strap? Sticky tape? Velcro?


    -Tim-

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by TimothyH View Post
    2nd time I've asked the question in this thread.

    How does the mount attach to the helmet?

    Strap? Sticky tape? Velcro?


    -Tim-
    Its an integrated GoPro mount. So any GoPro mount will work including Strap based helmet mounts, stick on mounts (I use these, mine has been attached to my helmet for ~2 years), etc.

    Outbound Lighting Hangover --- Discussion ----img_20190611_095505.jpg

    Outbound Lighting Hangover --- Discussion ----img_20190611_095414.jpg

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by TimothyH View Post
    2nd time I've asked the question in this thread.

    How does the mount attach to the helmet?

    Strap? Sticky tape? Velcro?


    -Tim-
    It depends on your helmet and perhaps your choice of adhesive.

    Personally, my helmet came has an integrated GoPro mount. So no to a strap, no to sticky tape and no to Velcro.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by TimothyH View Post
    2nd time I've asked the question in this thread.

    How does the mount attach to the helmet?

    Strap? Sticky tape? Velcro?


    -Tim-
    Sorry, thought I had mentioned it before. It'll come with a standard GoPro helmet mount like what infinityzak just posted. We already include these in our Downhill Package. Given that the GoPro style mount is about as much of a standard as we can get in biking, that is why decided to just fully integrate it into the housing itself. No weird adapters or anything.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by cue003 View Post
    I guess it would have been too big or heavy to make it a 2x battery light and thereby increase the size of the heat sink and possibly double the output while maintaining runtime? I know it isn’t that simple hence why you are doing the designing and I am doing the armchair engineering/asking.
    Now you are starting to talk about future product lines. Overall goal is to eventually move all the lights to this architecture of design. We've taken all the profit from Focal and put it straight into the design, prototyping and tooling startup of this new light, and then we'll take the profit from this light and re-invest it into the next light, and so on. Our goal isn't crazy rapid growth, or could have tried to get some investor to put in $300k and maybe we could have 4-6 products going on right now.

    Taking it as it comes, learning from our mistakes, honing the budget, marketing, etc. to get lean and just focus on making a quality product.

  51. #51
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    Hi Matt,

    I'm just catching up on this thread following your product announcement email a couple weeks ago. My wife has been happily using the Road Edition as her primary commuting/early morning light since shortly after launch, so I'm excited to see this fresh discussion for an exciting new light.

    I have a question. Being that you are space/weight limiting this light to run from a single internal cell, would you mind sharing your reasons for using an 18650 instead of the slightly larger 21700? I don't know what the weight comparison is, so maybe that alone would answer my question, but it seems like it would be simpler to fit the slightly larger single cell 21700 than it would to design enough room for a second 18650. Wouldn't the run time increase be fairly significant?

    I've occasionally seen reference around this forum to the larger 21700 *(or maybe it was the 20700), suggesting that it is only a matter of time before they are developed into a bike light. It seems to me that a self contained, USB chargeable light would be the perfect way to implement such a change (not having to worry about compatibility with existing chargers/battery packs etc..).

    *edited to add

    -Jeremy

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by TimothyH View Post
    2nd time I've asked the question in this thread.

    How does the mount attach to the helmet?

    Strap? Sticky tape? Velcro?


    -Tim-
    Some awesome helmets (like Bontrager) have detachable magnetic GoPro mounts!

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    Sorry, thought I had mentioned it before. It'll come with a standard GoPro helmet mount like what infinityzak just posted. We already include these in our Downhill Package. Given that the GoPro style mount is about as much of a standard as we can get in biking, that is why decided to just fully integrate it into the housing itself. No weird adapters or anything.

    Thank you.

    Does it come with the portion of the mount that attached to the helmet or does that have to be purchased separately?


    -Tim-

  54. #54
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    I like the built in mounts some helmets have for mounting traditional shaped self-contained lights but for something like the Hangover their universal top mounting negates the advantage of being able to mount the Hanover lower and mote out of the way on the front of the helmet. Strap mounts offer a little more flexibility in mounting positions and will work for multiple helmets. The stick on ones may be permanent but for most helmets offer the most flexibility of mounting positions for ideal placement of your light. Pick your poison!
    Mole

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by TimothyH View Post
    Does it (Bontrager helmet mount) come with the portion of the mount that attached to the helmet or does that have to be purchased separately?...-
    The mount comes with helmets that accept it. It's in the box, not attached. I have one and like it.
    Do the math.

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by TimothyH View Post
    Thank you.
    Does it come with the portion of the mount that attached to the helmet or does that have to be purchased separately?
    -Tim-
    It seems with all the "mounting" stuff things get confusing. I will use the term "go pro mount" for the item which is fixed on the helmet and where the lamp (or a goPro) is fixed. The lamp has the fitting "adapter" included in the housing, as can be seen on the picture in post 1.

    And as far as i understood all those posts from outbound here, the "go pro mount" for the helmet is included with the hangover lamp and you do not need to buy another one (unless you do not like the provided model). See therefore post#1 "what's included" plus this post:
    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    It is designed with helmet mounting primarily, and will come with a gopro helmet mount.[...]
    and this post
    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    Sorry, thought I had mentioned it before. It'll come with a standard GoPro helmet mount like what infinityzak just posted. We already include these in our Downhill Package.[...]
    So if you check outbound's website, section shop/downhill package you see in the description in what's included "GoPro Helmet Mount Kit" together with a picture of it. Seems like sticky tape

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRMOLE View Post
    I like the built in mounts some helmets have for mounting traditional shaped self-contained lights but for something like the Hangover their universal top mounting negates the advantage of being able to mount the Hanover lower and mote out of the way on the front of the helmet. Strap mounts offer a little more flexibility in mounting positions and will work for multiple helmets. The stick on ones may be permanent but for most helmets offer the most flexibility of mounting positions for ideal placement of your light. Pick your poison!
    Mole
    Agreed. That is why I like the stick on mounts, if your particular helmets allows a decent surface area to adhere to at the front.

    Mine is a bit higher then i would like, I've been toying with the idea of some sort of extension like below.

    Name:  extender.jpg
Views: 242
Size:  56.2 KB

    https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3296...AbTest=ae803_5

    Hopefully it would allow me to mount further forward and lower.

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    It is designed with helmet mounting primarily, and will come with a gopro helmet mount. We have a bar mount that is in design that we may be able to include, however since it's just a typical GoPro mounting tab, any kind of bar mount available for GoPro's will work perfectly with this.
    Have you tried this on a headstrap yet? I don't wear a helmet when trail running, cross country skiing, or even most easy biking - assuming this would have a good beam pattern for those activities. It seems like the balance might not be good on a headstrap with the weight sticking out the front, mount in the back.

    Maybe one of the GoPro extenders sticking up and back so the lamp is balanced over the headstrap would work?

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tunnelrat81 View Post
    Hi Matt,

    I'm just catching up on this thread following your product announcement email a couple weeks ago. My wife has been happily using the Road Edition as her primary commuting/early morning light since shortly after launch, so I'm excited to see this fresh discussion for an exciting new light.

    I have a question. Being that you are space/weight limiting this light to run from a single internal cell, would you mind sharing your reasons for using an 18650 instead of the slightly larger 21700? I don't know what the weight comparison is, so maybe that alone would answer my question, but it seems like it would be simpler to fit the slightly larger single cell 21700 than it would to design enough room for a second 18650. Wouldn't the run time increase be fairly significant?

    I've occasionally seen reference around this forum to the larger 21700 *(or maybe it was the 20700), suggesting that it is only a matter of time before they are developed into a bike light. It seems to me that a self contained, USB chargeable light would be the perfect way to implement such a change (not having to worry about compatibility with existing chargers/battery packs etc..).

    *edited to add

    -Jeremy
    Forgot to address this.

    Main reason, weight. Second reason, cost. Third reason, didn't really gain much.

    The 21700 cell adds an additional 30g or so. Doesn't sound like a lot, but I was dead set determined to get under 100g total weight for the light itself.

    They are also still quite expensive compared to the 18650 at this current time. Next year might be totally different. Plus supply is somewhat tough and not super reliable with my suppliers. Surprise surprise, almost every major OEM is sucking up all the batteries worldwide. While 18650's in varying power densities and quality can purchased easily and be ready to go with custom protection circuits and wiring quickly.

    Then the whole tradeoff of weight, cost, and actual performance gain. With the quick-charge and pass-through charging that this light allows, we collectively agreed that getting an extra 20-30 minutes of runtime on a single light that is already pushing 2 hours of solid runtime on high wasn't really worth all the tradeoff's. Now if we were still working with microUSB, or didn't have passthrough charging then it might be a different discussion since that then could be a key differentiation to those on the market besides the weight and optics. Plus the cost offset of USB-C vs Micro USB probably would have covered the increased cost of 21700 vs 18650.

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    Forgot to address this.

    Main reason, weight. Second reason, cost. Third reason, didn't really gain much.

    The 21700 cell adds an additional 30g or so. Doesn't sound like a lot, but I was dead set determined to get under 100g total weight for the light itself.

    They are also still quite expensive compared to the 18650 at this current time. Next year might be totally different. Plus supply is somewhat tough and not super reliable with my suppliers. Surprise surprise, almost every major OEM is sucking up all the batteries worldwide. While 18650's in varying power densities and quality can purchased easily and be ready to go with custom protection circuits and wiring quickly.

    Then the whole tradeoff of weight, cost, and actual performance gain. With the quick-charge and pass-through charging that this light allows, we collectively agreed that getting an extra 20-30 minutes of runtime on a single light that is already pushing 2 hours of solid runtime on high wasn't really worth all the tradeoff's. Now if we were still working with microUSB, or didn't have passthrough charging then it might be a different discussion since that then could be a key differentiation to those on the market besides the weight and optics. Plus the cost offset of USB-C vs Micro USB probably would have covered the increased cost of 21700 vs 18650.
    My guess is unless you find a way to mass market to all the riders in the LBS's (and increase your production accordingly) or one of the major manufacturers figures out a way to make their lights as efficient as yours the 21700 batteries will be the cheap easy way for them to match your runtimes with their current single emitter designs. They will be slightly more expensive, larger and heavier but better lights because of their increased battery capacity but also should be more easily recognizable why the Hangover is a better light design.
    Mole

  61. #61
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    Yep, always the risk of competition coming in and swooping things up. Currently the lightest of the lights is 135g or so, going to 21700 adds another 35g right off the bat with the battery, not to mention the larger case and such, so can probably estimate that they'd be sitting at almost 180g unless they completely restructured the lights all together. We are right at the limit of potential weight reduction for a high power light. I could probably squeeze another 10g of weight out using some different design approaches, but even thermally conductive plastics are about the same density of die cast magnesium so even different materials won't change things much.

    And quite frankly, I'm not too worried. If they come out with a new 21700 then okay their runtimes might be close to what we can offer, but their beam patterns will still be circular spots.

    Now if they come out with 21700, with USB-C, and a really nice properly engineered beam pattern at a cheaper price point and feels as nice as ours.... okay maybe I'll be worried, but at that point I'm going to let our customer service, dealer programs, and ability to pivot and make changes fast be the key differentiator. And if it got to that point it'd be awesome. Means that more people are taking night riding seriously, enjoying it, and the ability to compare lights is going to come down more to how well one can judge a lamp by runtime, constant output, beam pattern width, depth, peak intensitys, color, etc. instead of just reported FL1 lumens and runtime, which we all know suck.

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