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  1. #1
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    Outbound Lighting Hangover --- Discussion ---



    We heard you.

    We know you wanted a self-contained helmet light for a long time.

    We know we can improve on whatís out there. We can be lighter, charge faster, and maintain the output more consistently.

    So we set out to develop a light, and like the Trail and Road Edition, we thought about a helmet light from the ground up rather than adapting an existing light to fit the role.
    Outbound Lighting Hangover --- Discussion ----hangover-helmet-side-view.jpg



    This is how we did it:

    For starters, we developed the optic in-house, from the ground up. You canít have a great light without a great optic, so we put hundreds of hours into simulation and prototypes to develop a beam pattern that fills your entire field of view with the light you need, not just a spot down the trail.

    The silicone TIR optic uses microfacets to finely tune the beam shape, eliminating the typical ďround hotspotĒ edges by redirecting portions of the beam to where you need it most, creating a dramatically smoother beam. Creating a Light Carpet around your periphery allows you to see and react to the whole trail and not get ďtunnel visionĒ with harsh edges. The smoother the beam, the less strain on your eyes, the better you can see and the more comfortable your night ride is.





    Then we focused on packaging. We absolutely wanted this to be the slimmest and lightest light on the market. So light you don't even notice it on your head. So we put the battery sideways, used lightweight magnesium for the heat sink, lightweight optical silicone for the lens, and an over-molded poly-carbonate shell to form the top half.

    The result is an incredible 100 grams total weight. Absolutely unheard of for a high powered light.

    Combine that featherweight with the fact that we can run this light at 2 hours of runtime and you start to wonder what else you could possibly need.



    No excuses anymore: Full charge in 1 hour

    Think for a second, how many times have you or a friend said ďI canít ride tonight, I forgot to charge my lights.Ē Typical bike lights take 3 hours to charge IF you paid for the ďfast chargeĒ feature, 6 hours if you didnít.

    With the Hangover, you can get an hour of runtime in just 30 minutes, and a full charge in an hour thanks to standard USB-C charging. That means you can plug it in while youíre getting ready, or driving to the trail, and be ready to go.




    American Made Quality.

    Like the Trail and Road Edition, these lights are built in our Chicago workshop. We put a massive amount of engineering work into making sure we can assemble our lights quickly, accurately, and with the highest quality to ensure that we keep production stateside for years to come. Backed with a no-questions-asked warranty and amazing customer service. We want you to be a customer, a friend, and an Outbound rider for life.



    What is included?


    • Hangover Light
    • USB-C charging cable
    • GoPro Helmet Mount


    Outbound Lighting Hangover --- Discussion ----hangover-iso-view.jpg
    Prototype shown:




    Much like the Kickstarter we ran a year and a half ago to start Outbound Lighting, we are running a limited pre-order with the greatest savings to be had if you pre-order before June 25th.

    We are running our pre-order for $99 with free shipping. MSRP will be $140 when we are shipping in the fall. Like Kickstarter we will be sending out updates as they arise for production and launching.

    https://www.outboundlighting.com/hangover/

    This light definitely represents an evolution in our product design. We've learned a lot since the first launch of the Focal Series last year. This is designed to be the perfect compliment to the Trail Edition.

    The beam pattern is not as wide as the trail, but provides the extra punch that many have wanted. We are not resorting to crazy output charts to try and have peak numbers that look great for marketing, instead relying on what made the Trail and Road Edition great, the beam pattern, simple UI, and great runtimes.

    The USB-C charging is the another massively great feature. Can get 1 hour of runtime with 30 minutes of charging, a full charge in 60 minutes. The battery is a high quality LG Chem 18650 that is paired well with our driver to provide not only a quick charge, but also a good, steady and predictable discharge.

    The part assembly was reduced a lot compared to the Focal Edition, which helps us bring the cost down (also going from 4 batteries to 1), we can make these much quicker as we intend for this to be a better product than the Lumina, Urban, and other self-contained battery options out there.

    The feel of the light is amazing. The TPU overmold that not only helps waterproof the light entirely, also feels extremely high quality, won't slip in your hands, and is easy to work with. Super proud of how nice this light feels.

    The mounting allows for this to tuck closely to the helmet, keeping weight close to your head as well as out of harms way from branches and foliage. The total weight is 100g, for reference a GoPro Hero5 with the frame to mount things is 140g.

    Want to get in on the pre-order? Here's a direct link:

    https://www.outboundlighting.com/product/hangover/

    Let me know any questions you may have!
    OutboundLighting.com
    Professionally Engineered LED Bike Lights
    Assembled in Chicago, IL


  2. #2
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    Sounds great! Is the battery user replaceable/swappable? Inaccessible & sealed inside? Proprietary? Beamshots available?

    -Garry

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    Quote Originally Posted by garrybunk View Post
    Sounds great! Is the battery user replaceable/swappable? Inaccessible & sealed inside? Proprietary? Beamshots available?

    -Garry
    Battery will be replaceable. Not field replaceable or hot swappable but easy enough to do on a kitchen table with the right tools (M2 Hex bit). The connector is an actual connector, not soldered joints.

    That reminds me of another point. You'll be able to use the light while charging. Aka run a battery pack on your helmet and have it feed this light to really have some crazy runtimes.
    OutboundLighting.com
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    Battery will be replaceable. Not field replaceable or hot swappable but easy enough to do on a kitchen table with the right tools (M2 Hex bit). The connector is an actual connector, not soldered joints.

    That reminds me of another point. You'll be able to use the light while charging. Aka run a battery pack on your helmet and have it feed this light to really have some crazy runtimes.
    Use while charging..... now that is super cool.

    Awesome. Ok, now redesign the trial and the road to be self contained with the same option to be used while charging. . That would be icing on the cake to have all the lights self contented and the user can Make the decision if they need super long times then they can connect a charging battery pack like Anker etc.

  5. #5
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    Any beam shots? I want throw with a helmet light, can you compare this to say an X2 w/spot optics?

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    Quote Originally Posted by cue003 View Post
    Use while charging..... now that is super cool.

    Awesome. Ok, now redesign the trial and the road to be self contained with the same option to be used while charging. . That would be icing on the cake to have all the lights self contented and the user can Make the decision if they need super long times then they can connect a charging battery pack like Anker etc.
    Thumbs up for this, that would be realy awesome! Even though i already have road light! What i realy expect from Matt in the future is a road light with a high and low beam and a remote. And with something like mentioned above ofc.
    Great job being in the 100g weight
    Light looks great, i have no doubts in the quality.
    I dont do mtb right now but this light looks so nice and i am a big fan of your work so i just might get it anyway

    Sent from my SM-N910C using Tapatalk

  7. #7
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    What is the estimated date these will be available/shipping?

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    I see the mode button is top mounted which is perfect . I may have missed it but am interested in what the IU program is, 3 or 4 mode levels @ what output levels? Light must be very efficient to get 2 hrs. @ 850 lumens from a single 3350 18650 battery which should also squeeze bonus time out of whatever power source was being used for the USB charging while in operation feature making for some super long runtimes! Curious if you think the beam pattern will also work well if the light is bar mounted? I'm impressed! Transferring money to my paypal account. Just need to decide if one of these will be enough.
    Mole

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    Standard USB charging meaning USB-PD?

    I think you nailed the price, looks great! Charging while running and using USB is a great feature

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    Outbound Lighting Hangover --- Discussion ---

    It looks great and I will be ordering one at least. But will you offer any package deals? With your other lights or maybe buy two get better pricing? Before I order just wanna get the best deal I can. not that the pre-order deal isnít great just like to know options. Thanks.
    Last edited by jeremy_burke; 05-26-2019 at 02:07 AM.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRMOLE View Post
    I see the mode button is top mounted which is perfect . I may have missed it but am interested in what the IU program is, 3 or 4 mode levels @ what output levels? Light must be very efficient to get 2 hrs. @ 850 lumens from a single 3350 18650 battery . . .
    Mole
    Hmm . . . I missed the 850 lumens spec. I know lumens aren't everything (and Matt has proven this), BUT I am wondering if the 850 max is going to be enough, coupled with the fact that this 850 lumens is being spread out to create that "light carpet" and not all focused down the trail? I'm 'wondering how this will compare to a dual XM-L2 light with spot optics pushing 1200 to 1500 lumens.

    Field replaceable/swappable battery would have been great, but I'll accept the ability to run from a USB power bank.

    -Garry
    "My Bike Lights" Thread on BLF teardowns, measurements, and beamshots. Moving my photos, PM or post up if you can't see them.

  12. #12
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    I'll try to get all the answers here in a bit. But please keep in mind that the design target for this light was to compete with the typical self contained lights on the market. A light head with 1500 lumens and an external battery will be better than this, no doubt. That's why the Road Edition is still a great light to have on the head for maximum performance.

    We had dozens, if not hundreds of people saying they wanted a light without an external battery pack. So this is our first answer, as well as hitting a lower price point. We didn't comprise on the driver setup or LEDs. The savings comes from less batteries, no wall charger, no case, cheaper shipping, better part consolidation and insanely fast assembly time.

    We also aren't resulting to the typical "start blindingly high and pull power fast" tactics that many manufacturers do to get high lumen numbers. All our numbers are calculated with steady state burn or very close to it. So when you turn on the light you aren't going to lose 50% of that claimed lumens in 10 minutes. That's why I hate the FL1 standard.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    I'll try to get all the answers here in a bit. But please keep in mind that the design target for this light was to compete with the typical self contained lights on the market. A light head with 1500 lumens and an external battery will be better than this, no doubt.
    Nice work, Matt. I ordered mine already, based on my experience with being a backer and user of the Trail Edition light. I like the less is more philosophy of maximizing performance with better engineering. That said, I am happy with the performance of my current Gloworm X2 helmet light and I have never been a fan of self contained lights for off-road use. But for only 10g more than the X2 lighthead, I am looking forward to seeing how the Hangover compares and what it's limitations are. Even if it doesn't supplant the X2 as my primary helmet light I will definitely have a use for it. It may become my usual first choice, or an option for certain trails and conditions, or for urban rides. Choices are good, and the correct number of lights to choose from is always n+1.

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    Seems like a nice work Matt! Looking forward to see some beam shots! What is the color temperature of the CREE's, cool white or more towards neutral white? How does the color temperature compare to the focal series? Do you plan to offer a warm or neutral white and cold white version? Furthermore, is your new light airtight or similar to the focal series equipped with a membrane? I am tempted to order the light although i do not have the need for it..

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    How does the mount affix to the helmet?

    I may have missed it in the description.

    The photos on the website make it appear as if the mount attaches with sticky tape.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    ........We also aren't resulting to the typical "start blindingly high and pull power fast" tactics that many manufacturers do to get high lumen numbers. All our numbers are calculated with steady state burn or very close to it. So when you turn on the light you aren't going to lose 50% of that claimed lumens in 10 minutes. That's why I hate the FL1 standard.
    Thank you for that!!!!

    One of my pet peeves is that some big name light manufacturers pull that stunt. Deceptive at best, IMO, dishonest.
    GoPro adapters for bike lights http://www.pacifier.com/~kevinb/index.html

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by phalkon30 View Post
    Standard USB charging meaning USB-PD?

    I think you nailed the price, looks great! Charging while running and using USB is a great feature
    Here's a response from the EE on the USB charging side:

    "We're not using USB PD (Power Delivery), we're using USB QC (Quick Charge) protocol. QC enables 5V/3A charging from a large range of chargers without any weirdness in the communication, so if you have a USB charger than can put out 15W, you'll get full power no matter what. PD would be great to reduce charge times even further, but the protocol is much more inconsistent depending on brand, which would reduce the number of chargers that would be truly compatible with our fast charging rate. Meanwhile, any PD-capable charger should also work at 5V/3A with the Hangover. We wanted to make it easy for anyone to find a charger and have it work as advertised, so QC is a better path for the majority of users."
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  18. #18
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    Alright, Q&A time since now have a few minutes to spare:

    Any beam shots? I want throw with a helmet light, can you compare this to say an X2 w/spot optics?
    Once we have the final optic nailed down we'll be doing beam shots. On version 3 right now. An X2 with spot optics will still be more powerful given that it's an external battery, and narrow punch, not really in the same class. Our optic is more like a Lumina 1200 in terms of peak power, but it's a gradient falloff with the light carpet so much like the Trail, your eye can pick up a lot more without that tunnel effect that narrow high power spot lights give you

    We are targeting the Lumina, Urban, Buster, and those single cell internal battery lights on the market with this price point and functionality. This is what the majority of the feedback has been, "love your lights, but hate external batteries".

    What is the estimated date these will be available/shipping?
    Targeting early fall. I am extremely hesitant to give our an exact date or week since shit happens. However definitely learned from last year and we'll have plenty on hand for the fall rush! But think around September.

    Curious if you think the beam pattern will also work well if the light is bar mounted?
    If people are already happy with a Lumina or Urban on the bars (which I've seen a ton of at night races) then this will be a great step up. One of these on the bars and one on the helmet will be a great setup for sure.

    t looks great and I will be ordering one at least. But will you offer any package deals? With your other lights or maybe buy two get better pricing? Before I order just wanna get the best deal I can. not that the pre-order deal isnít great just like to know options. Thanks.
    When we get closer we will probably offer some package deals. Right now just trying to keep things simple. In all honesty the package deal will probably still be similar to buying a Trail/Road at normal price now, and the pre-ordered light, so around $300 total vs when we launch the two together would be around $340 if bought individually.

    I know lumens aren't everything (and Matt has proven this), BUT I am wondering if the 850 max is going to be enough, coupled with the fact that this 850 lumens is being spread out to create that "light carpet" and not all focused down the trail? I'm 'wondering how this will compare to a dual XM-L2 light with spot optics pushing 1200 to 1500 lumens.
    The major difference is all about the lighting quality. As many have experienced with our current lights, having the smooth falloff makes a massive difference vs the sharp dropoff that a typical bowl reflector light from NR, L&M, MS, etc. provide. The Trail is a very broad and wide even illumination, while this optic is designed with a peaky punch, but very smooth gradient falloff. Here is a picture of it in simulation. For reference... the peak intensity is similar to the NR Boost 1200, except won't see any rings, and a wider falloff.

    Outbound Lighting Hangover --- Discussion ----beam-pattern1.jpg

    Can also notice the trapezodial shape that forms the light carpet down below. When the light is mounted on the helmet generally can't see more than 15* above the horizion line, so can see how shifted the light energy around to give some width, but shift the less intense parts of the light from stuff that'd just go into the trees, and putting it more on the ground in front of you.

    The whole image was designed around the light following your head in a fixed position, while the Trail was designed so as your handlebars moved you wouldn't lose sight of what you were looking at, so the peak intensity of the Trail is much lower for the tradeoff of very wide illumination.

    Another challenge when looking at false image renderings of beam patterns like above is that you might think that you'd still see a really peaky circular spot since the red is so dominant, but that's why we also look at the cross-sectional curves of log intensity because that's how our eyes perceive lighting. So when I design the optic I tweak things so that we have a smooth cross-sectional profile in all ranges. This is the stuff that takes hours of tweaking and simulating, if not days. Combined I'd say I spent about 100-150 hours of design, simulation, and tweaking to get this optic where I felt comfortable.

    What is the color temperature of the CREE's, cool white or more towards neutral white? How does the color temperature compare to the focal series? Do you plan to offer a warm or neutral white and cold white version? Furthermore, is your new light airtight or similar to the focal series equipped with a membrane?
    The temperature will be looking to match the Focal, so more on the neutral to warm side of the lights. No plans to offer different colors as that is such a minor part of the market (you guys, who want different temperature options) that it'd be a big ask for us to stock various PCB inventory and SKU's, as well as different assembly tracking to try and meet that desire. This is the light that I hope to scale and eventually find in every bike shop in the country, so assembly speed, costs, packaging, etc are extremely crucial if we are going to keep production in house.

    The housing is airtight, have learned from Focal and figured out how to improve it even better. Paying a lot upfront for better tooling and processes. The entire upper housing is going to be overmolded TPU on a PC frame, this lets us integrate the button, status light, seal, frame, and give a great GoPro-like soft-touch feel into one part that is completely waterproof.

    One of my pet peeves is that some big name light manufacturers pull that stunt. Deceptive at best, IMO, dishonest.
    Indeed. It's literally one of the most frustrating things to explain to customers. Some people notice it right away, and others don't because their eyes adjust to the light quickly. The other "runtime" standard of FL1 is also stupid IMO since it's the whole "within 10% of original output". When we say 2 hours of runtime we are calculating that we'll have around 75% of original output before it conks out. So more than likely we'll have 2 hours and then do the typical drop-down-to-get-home sort of like the current Focal.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post

    One of my pet peeves is that some big name light manufacturers pull that stunt. Deceptive at best, IMO, dishonest.
    Indeed. It's literally one of the most frustrating things to explain to customers. Some people notice it right away, and others don't because their eyes adjust to the light quickly. The other "runtime" standard of FL1 is also stupid IMO since it's the whole "within 10% of original output". When we say 2 hours of runtime we are calculating that we'll have around 75% of original output before it conks out. So more than likely we'll have 2 hours and then do the typical drop-down-to-get-home sort of like the current Focal.
    I appreciate that your standards are higher than those of the FL1. I understand that a lot of the larger manufacturers feel they have to "play the game" for maximum marketing advantage but loose FL1 standards allow for output/runtime claims that are extremely inflated from actual usable performance at the expense of the unsuspecting customer. Surprisingly some people don't seem to care at all but I think they're probably more interested in lighting from a utility point of view (price/reliability/adequate illumination) rather than its performance capabilities. I fall into the later category so again, appreciate your honest output and runtime claims. Ordered 2 "Hangovers" this morning!
    Mole

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRMOLE View Post
    I appreciate that your standards are higher than those of the FL1. I understand that a lot of the larger manufacturers feel they have to "play the game" for maximum marketing advantage but loose FL1 standards allow for output/runtime claims that are extremely inflated from actual usable performance at the expense of the unsuspecting customer. Surprisingly some people don't seem to care at all but I think they're probably more interested in lighting from a utility point of view (price/reliability/adequate illumination) rather than its performance capabilities. I fall into the later category so again, appreciate your honest output and runtime claims. Ordered 2 "Hangovers" this morning!
    Mole
    Yep, I agree with you. I think more customers are going off of word-of-mouth and recommendations rather than just straight stat comparisons these days. In the automotive side of things it used to be lumen dominated, then more education came out about why Lumens didn't really matter and examples of how bad some claims were exaggerated, and now more people focus on light quality and such. I feel like the biking side of things is starting to get around to that, though we aren't totally there yet.

    Plus, honestly, from the customer service side of things I've always been one to underpromise and overdeliver when I can. Creates a happy customer, and makes my job easier. Same thing for reliablity. Thankfully I hardly spend anytime on customer returns or dealing with frustrated customers because we set a standard fairly high for our lights to be reliable and trouble-free. Sure it costs us about 10-15% more in component costs, but if it means my time dedicated for customer service is only about 1-2 hours a week then I'll take that cost increase any day of the week. Shipping returns, new product, troubleshooting, etc all costs a lot of money. Not to mention the time suck.

    Was another one of those lessons learned from working with a company that valued part cost over reliability and stuff. Saw how much waste there was when the owner only valued how much he was paying for parts at the beginning of the life-cycle. Was maddening!

    Appreciate the order!
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    Is this light helmet mount only? I thought you mentioned that a bar mount would be included as well and it could be used on helmet and bar?

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    Quote Originally Posted by cue003 View Post
    Is this light helmet mount only? I thought you mentioned that a bar mount would be included as well and it could be used on helmet and bar?
    It is designed with helmet mounting primarily, and will come with a gopro helmet mount. We have a bar mount that is in design that we may be able to include, however since it's just a typical GoPro mounting tab, any kind of bar mount available for GoPro's will work perfectly with this.
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  23. #23
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    Nice looking light. Reminds me of the Specialized Flux 900/1200, but from what you've written, better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfTheHill View Post
    Nice looking light. Reminds me of the Specialized Flux 900/1200, but from what you've written, better.
    I would say the Flux is more in line with the Road Edition, except the Road edition obliterates the Flux. I was shocked at how poor the cutoff line was when I got one to take apart. It is mostly due to the combination of small optic and big LED die, which makes light harder to control.

    -----------

    As for Hangover, we've been amazed at the pre-order volume. Little over 200 preorders in less than a week. Blows away what we did for the Kickstarter on Focal. Still running the 30% off until June 25th, then will be 20%, then 10% then full MSRP once we are shipping. So earlier the better!
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  25. #25
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    Maybe I missed this, but are there variable settings, so, for example, you can run at middle or low power settings to extend battery life?

    My application is 24-hour solo racing, and needing to manage my lights and batteries/charge through the night.

    I currently run a L&M Seca 2000 on the bars (middle setting) and a Gemini Xera on my helmet (middle setting), and that combo gives me ~6 and 3+ hours of battery life, respectively.

    TIA...your lights sound pretty cool.


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  26. #26
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    Thanks for answering all these questions!
    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    Alright, Q&A time since now have a few minutes to spare[...]
    The temperature will be looking to match the Focal, so more on the neutral to warm side of the lights. No plans to offer different colors as that is such a minor part of the market (you guys, who want different temperature options)[....]
    From my point of view, the warmer the better, at least if you want to get more details i.e. in the woods. Most lights (car lights as well) are too much on the cold white side for my liking.
    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    [....]The housing is airtight, have learned from Focal and figured out how to improve it even better[...]
    This is good to hear!
    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    [....]the other "runtime" standard of FL1 is also stupid IMO since it's the whole "within 10% of original output". When we say 2 hours of runtime we are calculating that we'll have around 75% of original output before it conks out. So more than likely we'll have 2 hours and then do the typical drop-down-to-get-home sort of like the current Focal.[....]
    IMHo the only viable thing is to give the power drain of each mode and the battery capacity. Then one can do simply math to get the runtimes. I do not understand why so many companies do not give the power consumption of ther UI modes. Probably because the "cheat"
    Based on the battery and runtime the hangover on full power should use 5 to 6 W?
    Regarding the drop down: You might consider a mode to override the drop down mode completely (i.e. press the button very long). It is a very good feature, but i personally find it annoying that one cannot override the get home mode in the focal series, if wanted. You could also implement a short flashing sequence of the light once the battery drops below i.e. 15% capacity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    I would say the Flux is more in line with the Road Edition, except the Road edition obliterates the Flux. I was shocked at how poor the cutoff line was when I got one to take apart. It is mostly due to the combination of small optic and big LED die, which makes light harder to control.
    Ha, this piece of information explains why the STVZO version of the flux has only ~300 lm, as they probably had to change the die...

    Quote Originally Posted by waltaz View Post
    Maybe I missed this, but are there variable settings, so, for example, you can run at middle or low power settings to extend battery life?[....]
    in the specs on the outbound webpage runtimes are given 2...16 hr. However not given how many modes will be available.

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    Quote Originally Posted by waltaz View Post
    Maybe I missed this, but are there variable settings, so, for example, you can run at middle or low power settings to extend battery life?

    My application is 24-hour solo racing, and needing to manage my lights and batteries/charge through the night.

    I currently run a L&M Seca 2000 on the bars (middle setting) and a Gemini Xera on my helmet (middle setting), and that combo gives me ~6 and 3+ hours of battery life, respectively.

    TIA...your lights sound pretty cool.


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    Yep, we'll have the standard High-Medium-Low. Right now the High 2 hour target was the design intent, and then we'll figure out the Low setting based on what's comfortable during climbing and then figure the medium setting to be what's visually in between high and low.

    With the way our beam patterns are designed, it's often not as simple as pointing at the datasheet and saying "50% power". For example, on the Trail Edition there is a medium-high mode that is actually 20% less power draw than the high, butttttt it's nearly impossible to tell the mode changed because of the way our eyes perceive light, especially wide broad even lighting.

    So with that in mind, it's going to be real-world testing that'll determine the best balance of brightness and runtime.
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    Quote Originally Posted by biking_tg View Post
    IMHo the only viable thing is to give the power drain of each mode and the battery capacity. Then one can do simply math to get the runtimes. I do not understand why so many companies do not give the power consumption of ther UI modes. Probably because the "cheat"
    Based on the battery and runtime the hangover on full power should use 5 to 6 W?

    Regarding the drop down: You might consider a mode to override the drop down mode completely (i.e. press the button very long). It is a very good feature, but i personally find it annoying that one cannot override the get home mode in the focal series, if wanted. You could also implement a short flashing sequence of the light once the battery drops below i.e. 15% capacity.


    Ha, this piece of information explains why the STVZO version of the flux has only ~300 lm, as they probably had to change the die...
    Well, runtime is a tricky bitch. Lots of variables including battery age, temperature, cycles and more. Then the fact that the power draw is not always constant (this is where a well designed driver with quality components becomes crucial) means that approximating runtime is always a kind of moving target. Best solution for it is obviously an LCD readout, which is something I hope to be able to work in one of these days.

    We'll definitely take into account the override, that's something we got a lot of feedback on from our first lights.

    ---------

    One of the great things to happen recently was getting Tom "Danger" Place onboard with Outbound. He's a former CREE R&D labs manager and certified bike light nut. You might have seen his name on some articles such as this: https://www.pinkbike.com/news/ridden...ke-lights.html

    Because he's super knowledgeable with the LED and driver side of things, as well as having his hands on almost every bike light out there, he's been able to help elevate the electrical and programming side of OL. Prior to him I paid a contractor an hourly rate to do the development. So it was often done to my specs and not much chance to try out new things, or implement cool features.

    With Tom onboard he's got a lot of great ideas for Hangover as well as our future products. It's been great collaboration! He's been continually pushing myself (and himself) to make the best damn light we can, not because of the money, but because he uses these lights on a nearly daily basis out in AZ and wants to address all the shortfalls of lights he's used (and built) in the past.

    ----------

    Regarding the StVZO lumen levels, I doubt they changed the die, what they probably ended up having to do was to reduce the brightness to just pass the certification because there is a maximum amount of light above the "cutoff" that is allowed. And if they have a crap blurry cutoff then need to pull the brightness to meet that requirement. The minimum brightness for the hotspot is laughably easy to hit even with 100 lumens.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    Yep, we'll have the standard High-Medium-Low. Right now the High 2 hour target was the design intent, and then we'll figure out the Low setting based on what's comfortable during climbing and then figure the medium setting to be what's visually in between high and low.

    With the way our beam patterns are designed, it's often not as simple as pointing at the datasheet and saying "50% power". For example, on the Trail Edition there is a medium-high mode that is actually 20% less power draw than the high, butttttt it's nearly impossible to tell the mode changed because of the way our eyes perceive light, especially wide broad even lighting.

    So with that in mind, it's going to be real-world testing that'll determine the best balance of brightness and runtime.
    Thanks for the response! I need to try these out...


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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    Yep, we'll have the standard High-Medium-Low. Right now the High 2 hour target was the design intent, and then we'll figure out the Low setting based on what's comfortable during climbing and then figure the medium setting to be what's visually in between high and low.

    With the way our beam patterns are designed, it's often not as simple as pointing at the datasheet and saying "50% power". For example, on the Trail Edition there is a medium-high mode that is actually 20% less power draw than the high, butttttt it's nearly impossible to tell the mode changed because of the way our eyes perceive light, especially wide broad even lighting.

    So with that in mind, it's going to be real-world testing that'll determine the best balance of brightness and runtime.
    Matt,
    That sounds fine for light output levels. My suggestion for possible UI program would be to match the pattern used on the Sigma Buster 700. Simple 4 level hi/med/low/flash program that starts out in high and single clicks to the next lowest level ending in the flash mode with another single click to return to high. Additionally double clicking in high takes it to low and double clicking in med and low returns the light to high. End result is the flash mode can be isolated from main program by using the double click option when in low, high is a double click away when in med or low, and when in high a double click will take you to low to deal with oncoming traffic. Very simple easy to use program that covers the needs of both road and mtn. biking and my favorite UI of all the 40 or so lights I currently have. Don't know if you have access to this light to try it out but currently pretty cheap on Amazon ($53). Curious what you think!
    Mole

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    Quote Originally Posted by MRMOLE View Post
    Matt,
    That sounds fine for light output levels. My suggestion for possible UI program would be to match the pattern used on the Sigma Buster 700. Simple 4 level hi/med/low/flash program that starts out in high and single clicks to the next lowest level ending in the flash mode with another single click to return to high. Additionally double clicking in high takes it to low and double clicking in med and low returns the light to high. End result is the flash mode can be isolated from main program by using the double click option when in low, high is a double click away when in med or low, and when in high a double click will take you to low to deal with oncoming traffic. Very simple easy to use program that covers the needs of both road and mtn. biking and my favorite UI of all the 40 or so lights I currently have. Don't know if you have access to this light to try it out but currently pretty cheap on Amazon ($53). Curious what you think!
    Mole
    I did grab a Sigma to have in the arsenal of lights to test against. It's an alright light. Compared directly with a Lumina or an urban it's a better deal (can't stand how plasticy it feels though, they really should radii the tool to avoid the sharp edges). However we (myself and Tom) literally cannot stand any light that cycles through a flashing mode. Like the Trail & Road, there will be some flash modes that are separate from the main lighting mode. A triple-click or something similar will get into a flashing mode.

    Now that I have sold all my cars and relying solely on my bike for delivering lights to the Post Office, road lighting and use has become pretty important to me. I'll definitely be using my Road light obviously, but also want to use the Hangover flash modes for DRL stuff.
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  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    I did grab a Sigma to have in the arsenal of lights to test against. It's an alright light. Compared directly with a Lumina or an urban it's a better deal (can't stand how plasticy it feels though, they really should radii the tool to avoid the sharp edges). However we (myself and Tom) literally cannot stand any light that cycles through a flashing mode.
    Light is definitely different looking, I happen to like it but can see personal taste would factor in on this light. I also hate having to cycle through the flash mode but you don't have to with the Buster unless you choose to do so. When in low you get to flash with a single click but a double click in low will skip over flash and take you to high. My first ride with the Buster I was excited to get out to try the light and didn't really get the UI (not complicated I was just lazy about reading instructions). After actually using the double click feature(s) on a ride I find it works great. Want a 3 level trail program, single click from high to med and med to low and double click back to high (or return to high from med if low is not usable for your trail). Want a hi/low road/path program just double click from high to low and back to high with another double click.
    Mole

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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    For example, on the Trail Edition there is a medium-high mode that is actually 20% less power draw than the high, butttttt it's nearly impossible to tell the mode changed because of the way our eyes perceive light, especially wide broad even lighting.

    So with that in mind, it's going to be real-world testing that'll determine the best balance of brightness and runtime.
    Agree with you. IMHO the medium-high mode on the focal road edition in the current programming is not needed, as there is barely a perceivable difference. I find the drop between medium-high to medium a bit to much, i miss a mode in between, i.e. one which directly switches to the (constant output) of the adaptive mode, and the medium mode could then be a bit lower.

    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    Well, runtime is a tricky bitch. Lots of variables including battery age, temperature, cycles and more.
    Of course, but with the massive spread of mobile phones each kiddo knows batteries deterioate with time, so a run time is of course only valid with a fresh battery and at ambient temperature (although this is not so well known....) But then being a trained electrochemist, i might be too optimistic about battery knowledge of "normal" folks.

    Any chances for a real beam shot before June 25th?
    Last edited by biking_tg; 06-10-2019 at 02:45 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by biking_tg View Post
    Agree with you. IMHO the medium-high mode on the focal road edition in the current programming is not needed, as there is barely a perceivable difference. I find the drop between medium-high to medium a bit to much, i miss a mode which also directly to set the (constant output) of the adaptive mode, and the medium mode could be a bit lower.


    Of course, but with the massive spread of mobile phones each kiddo knows batteries deterioate with time, so a run time is of course only valid with a fresh battery and at ambient temperature (although this is not so well known....) But then being a trained electrochemist, i might be too optimistic about battery knowledge of "normal" folks.

    Any chances for a real beam shot before June 25th?
    Hoping to have the production lens within a few weeks. So a hard.... maybe? As soon as I get some and are happy with it we'll definitely post up. We got the production started on the lens early on just in case we do need to make some changes. The other hard parts won't effect the actual output
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    I have ordered 2 of these lights. Just had a thought. Is this helmet light more designed to compliment the road light or the trail light? I want more trail night riding with secondary street use and donít want to get smacked in the head by branches etc on the trail due to ďroadĒ style hard cutoff. The description mentions trail but I just want some clarity.

    If I wanted to run one on the helmet and one on the bars is that doable?

    Lastly if mounted on bars using appropriate go pro mount will light performance suffer significantly if mounted upside down (under a Garmin bike computer)??

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    I hate to be the kill-joy in this discussion but I have my doubts on just how useful this type of light is going to be. However I do like the idea that it is self contained, can run / charge USB-C at the same time AND has the potential for battery switch-out. The reason for my skepticism is because this light is suppose to be designed as a helmet lamp. Now if you are using this for mountain biking and like to ride fast on the downhills then this lamp is not going to give you the throw needed or desired by most. It should however be the absolute "Bee's knee's"* if you are the type of person who just uses a typical single cell torch on the helmet. Most of my 18650 type torches typically work very well on the helmet when MTB'n but most of the ones I have that are very bright ( over 900 lm ) will over-heat if left on high or power down automatically by design after a set short number of minutes ( two minutes or less ). Assuming that that Hangover can maintain it's highest output full time over most of it's est. runtime I find this design feature very refreshing and should make for a great selling point if it actually does what it claims to do.

    For road, although I do use a very good thrower torch on helmet I only use it for moments at a time and the ONLY reason I still carry it along is because it has absolutely KILLER throw ( over 300-400 ft. depending on conditions ) This degree of throw comes in very handy when riding at high speeds. Most people ( IMO ) aren't going to use a helmet light full time on the road so as I see it this should attract the person who is likely using a bright light on the bars but just wants something more to compliment the bar light when MTB'n. As I've said before I take the opposite approach; bright bar lamp but a much brighter helmet lamp.

    Now with all this said if I was the type of MTBer who started rides in the early evening while it was still enough daylight to see by but wanted something to help me get back after if got dark ( or just did two hour night rides ), this new helmet light would be perfect; particularly if say you are running something like a Raveman PR-1200 or new 1600 ( both self contained lamps ) on the bars and then the Outbound Hangover on the helmet. Of course if you ran the MTB version of the original Outbound lamp on the bars the beam tints would likely be very similar ( or so I would like to think ) and output with the original Outbound lamps should be brighter than the Raveman's.

    I am surprised that many are pulling the trigger on this new lamp so fast so obviously not everyone thinks the way that I do. I'm more the "wait and see" type of guy unless I'm really convinced that the the lamp will do what the manufacturer claims it will do. With newer designs I tend to be more, "wait and see".
    Last edited by Cat-man-do; 06-09-2019 at 07:20 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cue003 View Post
    I have ordered 2 of these lights. Just had a thought. Is this helmet light more designed to compliment the road light or the trail light? I want more trail night riding with secondary street use and donít want to get smacked in the head by branches etc on the trail due to ďroadĒ style hard cutoff. The description mentions trail but I just want some clarity.

    If I wanted to run one on the helmet and one on the bars is that doable?

    Lastly if mounted on bars using appropriate go pro mount will light performance suffer significantly if mounted upside down (under a Garmin bike computer)??
    This is definitely designed around the Trail Edition on the handlebars. Though I certainly intend to use the light on my head while I commute in Chicago on low or flashing DRL to act as a "see me" light in addition to the Road on the handlebars.

    Definitely doable. I know lots of people often run two of the same lamps both on the head and helmet.

    The performance hit won't be as drastic as the Trail or Road mounted upside down, since this is certainly far more spotty, but more of a trapezodial pattern as you can see in some of the pictures posted earlier in this thread. Testing will determine whether it really is a bad idea or not.
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  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do View Post
    I hate to be the kill-joy in this discussion but I have my doubts on just how useful this type of light is going to be. However I do like the idea that it is self contained, can run / charge USB-C at the same time AND has the potential for battery switch-out. The reason for my skepticism is because this light is suppose to be designed as a helmet lamp. Now if you are using this for mountain biking and like to ride fast on the downhills then this lamp is not going to give you the throw needed or desired by most. It should however be the absolute "Bee's knee's"* if you are the type of person who just uses a typical single cell torch on the helmet. Most of my 18650 type torches typically work very well on the helmet when MTB'n but most of the ones I have that are very bright ( over 900 lm ) will over-heat if left on high or power down automatically by design after a set short number of minutes ( two minutes or less ). Assuming that that Hanover can maintain it's highest output full time over most of it's est. runtime I find this design feature very refreshing and should make for a great selling point if it actually does what it claims to do.
    You bring up a good point about the thermals. This is where almost every single self-contained high power light on the market falls short. Why? Because they are putting an incredibly intense heat source deep inside a poorly designed housing that can't take the heat or shed it fast enough.

    Notice how we have 6 LED's? This isn't an aesthetic design choice. It started out as a thermal requirement. We are able to get the 800-900 lumen target by deliberately under-driving the CREE XQ-E HI LED's so that they run cooler and more efficiently. Then by spreading that heat load out across the entire face of the light (along with a direct thermal path to the large magnesium outer shell) means that the thermals are actually able to maintain the output easily compared to a high power single die LED that's being overdriven past it's nominal ratings and can only last 2 minutes to meet that magical FL1 spec, and then pull power and crap out fast in order to have any kind of usable runtime.

    So once you look past the "only 800-900" lumens and realize that we are serious about how to maintain that output even in hot climates (Tom the EE rides regularly in Sedona, AZ and is out every night in the desert) along with getting rid of the marketing B.S. numbers and focusing solely on how to make a great light, then can probably start to see why people are excited about this.

    I'll share what Tom had posted on his social media when we launched the pre-order. It is why we both get along very well and agree on many things when it comes to quality and getting through the B.S. We are both engineers more focused on making a product we are proud of, and will use everyday then we are on making large amount of profit. If we wanted to make a quick buck would make another single-die internal LED flashlight, call it the greatest thing ever, put cheap batteries in it, and delete any negative comments that came our way.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Outbound Lighting Hangover --- Discussion ----tom1.png  

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  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    You bring up a good point about the thermals. This is where almost every single self-contained high power light on the market falls short. Why? Because they are putting an incredibly intense heat source deep inside a poorly designed housing that can't take the heat or shed it fast enough.

    Notice how we have 6 LED's? This isn't an aesthetic design choice. It started out as a thermal requirement. We are able to get the 800-900 lumen target by deliberately under-driving the CREE XQ-E HI LED's so that they run cooler and more efficiently. Then by spreading that heat load out across the entire face of the light (along with a direct thermal path to the large magnesium outer shell) means that the thermals are actually able to maintain the output easily compared to a high power single die LED that's being overdriven past it's nominal ratings and can only last 2 minutes to meet that magical FL1 spec, and then pull power and crap out fast in order to have any kind of usable runtime.

    So once you look past the "only 800-900" lumens and realize that we are serious about how to maintain that output even in hot climates (Tom the EE rides regularly in Sedona, AZ and is out every night in the desert) along with getting rid of the marketing B.S. numbers and focusing solely on how to make a great light, then can probably start to see why people are excited about this.

    I'll share what Tom had posted on his social media when we launched the pre-order. It is why we both get along very well and agree on many things when it comes to quality and getting through the B.S. We are both engineers more focused on making a product we are proud of, and will use everyday then we are on making large amount of profit. If we wanted to make a quick buck would make another single-die internal LED flashlight, call it the greatest thing ever, put cheap batteries in it, and delete any negative comments that came our way.
    Great Post! Important for me since I ride in the desert (and anyone else who rides in a warm climate). To meet your output/runtimes/consistency claims Hangover must be significantly more efficient than its competition @ max output. Looking forward to testing the light out for myself. Also happy to hear you'll getting input from Tom in the future since his riding environment is more similar to mine than the forested areas you ride in.
    Mole

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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    .....The performance hit won't be as drastic as the Trail or Road mounted upside down, since this is certainly far more spotty, but more of a trapezodial pattern as you can see in some of the pictures posted earlier in this thread. Testing will determine whether it really is a bad idea or not.
    There really would be no need to mount one upside down under a computer. Plastic mount extensions are available. Something like this....

    https://www.amazon.com/Rec-mounts-Ex.../dp/B00G4UV9JG

    If there was concern about strength of a plastic extension, I make an aluminum adapter for StVZO dyno lights to mount in the correct orientation under computers. Would not take much to tweak the design to work with this light. Then you would also keep the operating button on top for better access too.
    GoPro adapters for bike lights http://www.pacifier.com/~kevinb/index.html

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    ...Notice how we have 6 LED's? This isn't an aesthetic design choice. It started out as a thermal requirement. We are able to get the 800-900 lumen target by deliberately under-driving the CREE XQ-E HI LED's so that they run cooler and more efficiently. Then by spreading that heat load out across the entire face of the light (along with a direct thermal path to the large magnesium outer shell) means that the thermals are actually able to maintain the output easily compared to a high power single die LED that's being overdriven past it's nominal ratings and can only last 2 minutes to meet that magical FL1 spec, and then pull power and crap out fast in order to have any kind of usable runtime.

    So once you look past the "only 800-900" lumens and realize that we are serious about how to maintain that output even in hot climates (Tom the EE rides regularly in Sedona, AZ and is out every night in the desert) along with getting rid of the marketing B.S. numbers and focusing solely on how to make a great light, then can probably start to see why people are excited about this.
    Hmmm...very interesting. You are beginning to convince me ( and doing it without Jedi mind tricks...of which I am immune ) After looking at the specs on the Cree XQE-Hi I think this lamp could indeed be very successful. A lot though depends on what CCT range you chose to work with and how well you manage to get the optics to intermingle so to create that 850-900 lumen cumulative effect.

    If you are under powering the emitters I'm figuring your trying to get each to output a max of about 142-150 lumen. Should be able to do this by running each emitter @~500-600ma. Since that's almost half of the maximum recommended current I would think managing the heat should be quite doable, even in a warmer climate.

    The real question though is, "How good are you Master Jedi of the Optics at making this into a usable beam pattern that will facilitate a viable helmet lamp.

    I know I said some time ago that I probably wasn't going to buy another helmet lamp. What I failed to say then was that I didn't need a brighter lamp. This lamp is sort of a horse of a different color so to speak. I might be interested in buying one of these myself if the price is not too steep and I like the beam pattern. Of course beam tint is important too so I'd like to know ASAP what CCT or Kevin range you are aiming at using.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do View Post
    ....Of course beam tint is important too so I'd like to know ASAP what CCT or Kevin range you are aiming at using.
    Outbound wrote in Post #18 that he plans to mach the focal series in color temp, so "more on neutral to warm side", but didn't give a number.
    However in the focal series discussion he mentioned the color code of the Altilon chip (4A, datasheet says 5680 K). In a different post there (post #809) he mentioned that the light gets a bit warmer after passing the reflector and silicon lens and has in the end "mid 4000 K". He uploaded a comparison of a cold white b&m ixon with the focal.
    Can only speak for the focal road, but this light is notably warmer in direct comparison to a standard lupine (with rated 6000K LED). Haven't had the chance to compare it to a officially rated 4000K or 5000K lamp, though
    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    [...] Notice how we have 6 LED's? This isn't an aesthetic design choice. It started out as a thermal requirement. We are able to get the 800-900 lumen target by deliberately under-driving the CREE XQ-E HI LED's so that they run cooler and more efficiently.[...]
    Definitely a well designed product, accepting the penalties on weight and dimension of the bigger lamp housing (compared to a two or single die lamp) for having a more useful steady output.
    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    Hoping to have the production lens within a few weeks. So a hard.... maybe? As soon as I get some and are happy with it we'll definitely post up.[...]
    Beam shots might convince me to get one, although i am not doing much trail riding. But might come handy for smaller, more straight trails which i ride with my cyclocross bike in the woods as a supplement to my SL-F in high beam mode.
    Last edited by biking_tg; 06-10-2019 at 05:38 AM.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by biking_tg View Post
    Definitely a well designed product, accepting the penalties on weight and dimension of the bigger lamp housing (compared to a two or single die lamp) for having a more useful steady output.
    My design process started out by looking at a Jeep JL wrangler and the new Cherokee LED headlight. Now you won't notice what's really going on inside of it unless you look straight into the lens (while off.... please). Automotive Lighting (name of the company, will refer to it as AL) came up with a pretty unique method of projecting the light. It has 12 LED's (7 for low, 5 for high) that are focused onto the cutoff shield via TIR lenses, then the image is flipped via the large outer lens. Now this exact style of light control wasn't going to work for bikes because the focal length is too big. However in the technical papers it was mentioned about how this was an exercise in thermal control.

    Automotive headlights have one of the toughest thermal situations... It sits inside a hot engine bay, it needs to last for dozens of years, so ideally no fans or anything, yet it needs to be lightweight, cheap, dead reliable, absolutely waterproof, and yet still shed about 15-30W of heat.

    So there is a lot of analysis and tech put into how to disperse the heat and if you go searching deep enough can often find the technical whitepapers. Along with some really novel ways of doing image projection. It is why I find the field so fascinating. There is no other field of lighting that is so constrained by technical and performance regulations, yet requires innovative solutions to reach cost and styling requirements, so there is a lot of cool stuff that comes out of it.

    I had actually posted a picture of this headlight way back in October on our Instagram when I was doing the initial designs and validating my ideas. Was my source of inspiration putting this weird optic next to a single 18650 battery and having that "aha" moment of how to make this work.

    Outbound Lighting Hangover --- Discussion ----jlheadlight.png

    Before playing with the optic and that battery I was starting to go down the path of a 3 die light like the Knog, or a single die light with an innovative beam shaping single TIR optic but wasn't really happy with any of those potential avenues so I kept just sketching and thinking about it. In fact the "idea" of doing a self contained 18650 was started pretty much right after the kickstarter where I had gotten a lot of the comments of "well I would buy, but I hate external battery packs", but could never land on anything that felt unique enough to actually stand out in the sea of flashlights that I'd actually feel proud to sell.

    I didn't want to just make a Lumina, Urban, Buster clone and call it a day, I want to shake things up.
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    I like what I am seeing here. For riding in the woods at night, I think the mega-lumen lights are overkill. I don't run my lights on the highest settings, partially to preserve the batteries, but also because it kills my night vision, which at some point offsets the benefit of the extra brightness. Public road with street lights and car lights is a different scenario, but I don't ride road.

    I run a flood on the bars, and a spot on my helmet. Both beam patterns are terrible out of the box. I always thought it was a dumb way of doing things. I don't need to light up the trees or my front tire, but I do want a wider beam. I was able to swap to a wide-beam lens on my MJ helmet light, which helped greatly. The flood on the bars still stinks, so I run it on the lowest setting, and rely mostly on the helmet light.

    Looking at the illustration of the beam pattern, I think I would want it even wider and flatter, but I can't really tell without seeing it on the trail. It's definitely better than a round pattern.

    Having the option to ride with a separate battery backup for longer rides / emergencies is a big deal; good thinking there.

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    I guess it would have been too big or heavy to make it a 2x battery light and thereby increase the size of the heat sink and possibly double the output while maintaining runtime? I know it isnít that simple hence why you are doing the designing and I am doing the armchair engineering/asking.

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    2nd time I've asked the question in this thread.

    How does the mount attach to the helmet?

    Strap? Sticky tape? Velcro?


    -Tim-

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    Quote Originally Posted by TimothyH View Post
    2nd time I've asked the question in this thread.

    How does the mount attach to the helmet?

    Strap? Sticky tape? Velcro?


    -Tim-
    Its an integrated GoPro mount. So any GoPro mount will work including Strap based helmet mounts, stick on mounts (I use these, mine has been attached to my helmet for ~2 years), etc.

    Outbound Lighting Hangover --- Discussion ----img_20190611_095505.jpg

    Outbound Lighting Hangover --- Discussion ----img_20190611_095414.jpg

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by TimothyH View Post
    2nd time I've asked the question in this thread.

    How does the mount attach to the helmet?

    Strap? Sticky tape? Velcro?


    -Tim-
    It depends on your helmet and perhaps your choice of adhesive.

    Personally, my helmet came has an integrated GoPro mount. So no to a strap, no to sticky tape and no to Velcro.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by TimothyH View Post
    2nd time I've asked the question in this thread.

    How does the mount attach to the helmet?

    Strap? Sticky tape? Velcro?


    -Tim-
    Sorry, thought I had mentioned it before. It'll come with a standard GoPro helmet mount like what infinityzak just posted. We already include these in our Downhill Package. Given that the GoPro style mount is about as much of a standard as we can get in biking, that is why decided to just fully integrate it into the housing itself. No weird adapters or anything.
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  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by cue003 View Post
    I guess it would have been too big or heavy to make it a 2x battery light and thereby increase the size of the heat sink and possibly double the output while maintaining runtime? I know it isnít that simple hence why you are doing the designing and I am doing the armchair engineering/asking.
    Now you are starting to talk about future product lines. Overall goal is to eventually move all the lights to this architecture of design. We've taken all the profit from Focal and put it straight into the design, prototyping and tooling startup of this new light, and then we'll take the profit from this light and re-invest it into the next light, and so on. Our goal isn't crazy rapid growth, or could have tried to get some investor to put in $300k and maybe we could have 4-6 products going on right now.

    Taking it as it comes, learning from our mistakes, honing the budget, marketing, etc. to get lean and just focus on making a quality product.
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  51. #51
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    Hi Matt,

    I'm just catching up on this thread following your product announcement email a couple weeks ago. My wife has been happily using the Road Edition as her primary commuting/early morning light since shortly after launch, so I'm excited to see this fresh discussion for an exciting new light.

    I have a question. Being that you are space/weight limiting this light to run from a single internal cell, would you mind sharing your reasons for using an 18650 instead of the slightly larger 21700? I don't know what the weight comparison is, so maybe that alone would answer my question, but it seems like it would be simpler to fit the slightly larger single cell 21700 than it would to design enough room for a second 18650. Wouldn't the run time increase be fairly significant?

    I've occasionally seen reference around this forum to the larger 21700 *(or maybe it was the 20700), suggesting that it is only a matter of time before they are developed into a bike light. It seems to me that a self contained, USB chargeable light would be the perfect way to implement such a change (not having to worry about compatibility with existing chargers/battery packs etc..).

    *edited to add

    -Jeremy

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by TimothyH View Post
    2nd time I've asked the question in this thread.

    How does the mount attach to the helmet?

    Strap? Sticky tape? Velcro?


    -Tim-
    Some awesome helmets (like Bontrager) have detachable magnetic GoPro mounts!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    Sorry, thought I had mentioned it before. It'll come with a standard GoPro helmet mount like what infinityzak just posted. We already include these in our Downhill Package. Given that the GoPro style mount is about as much of a standard as we can get in biking, that is why decided to just fully integrate it into the housing itself. No weird adapters or anything.

    Thank you.

    Does it come with the portion of the mount that attached to the helmet or does that have to be purchased separately?


    -Tim-

  54. #54
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    I like the built in mounts some helmets have for mounting traditional shaped self-contained lights but for something like the Hangover their universal top mounting negates the advantage of being able to mount the Hanover lower and mote out of the way on the front of the helmet. Strap mounts offer a little more flexibility in mounting positions and will work for multiple helmets. The stick on ones may be permanent but for most helmets offer the most flexibility of mounting positions for ideal placement of your light. Pick your poison!
    Mole

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by TimothyH View Post
    Does it (Bontrager helmet mount) come with the portion of the mount that attached to the helmet or does that have to be purchased separately?...-
    The mount comes with helmets that accept it. It's in the box, not attached. I have one and like it.
    What, me worry?

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    Quote Originally Posted by TimothyH View Post
    Thank you.
    Does it come with the portion of the mount that attached to the helmet or does that have to be purchased separately?
    -Tim-
    It seems with all the "mounting" stuff things get confusing. I will use the term "go pro mount" for the item which is fixed on the helmet and where the lamp (or a goPro) is fixed. The lamp has the fitting "adapter" included in the housing, as can be seen on the picture in post 1.

    And as far as i understood all those posts from outbound here, the "go pro mount" for the helmet is included with the hangover lamp and you do not need to buy another one (unless you do not like the provided model). See therefore post#1 "what's included" plus this post:
    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    It is designed with helmet mounting primarily, and will come with a gopro helmet mount.[...]
    and this post
    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    Sorry, thought I had mentioned it before. It'll come with a standard GoPro helmet mount like what infinityzak just posted. We already include these in our Downhill Package.[...]
    So if you check outbound's website, section shop/downhill package you see in the description in what's included "GoPro Helmet Mount Kit" together with a picture of it. Seems like sticky tape

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRMOLE View Post
    I like the built in mounts some helmets have for mounting traditional shaped self-contained lights but for something like the Hangover their universal top mounting negates the advantage of being able to mount the Hanover lower and mote out of the way on the front of the helmet. Strap mounts offer a little more flexibility in mounting positions and will work for multiple helmets. The stick on ones may be permanent but for most helmets offer the most flexibility of mounting positions for ideal placement of your light. Pick your poison!
    Mole
    Agreed. That is why I like the stick on mounts, if your particular helmets allows a decent surface area to adhere to at the front.

    Mine is a bit higher then i would like, I've been toying with the idea of some sort of extension like below.

    Name:  extender.jpg
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    https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3296...AbTest=ae803_5

    Hopefully it would allow me to mount further forward and lower.

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    It is designed with helmet mounting primarily, and will come with a gopro helmet mount. We have a bar mount that is in design that we may be able to include, however since it's just a typical GoPro mounting tab, any kind of bar mount available for GoPro's will work perfectly with this.
    Have you tried this on a headstrap yet? I don't wear a helmet when trail running, cross country skiing, or even most easy biking - assuming this would have a good beam pattern for those activities. It seems like the balance might not be good on a headstrap with the weight sticking out the front, mount in the back.

    Maybe one of the GoPro extenders sticking up and back so the lamp is balanced over the headstrap would work?

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tunnelrat81 View Post
    Hi Matt,

    I'm just catching up on this thread following your product announcement email a couple weeks ago. My wife has been happily using the Road Edition as her primary commuting/early morning light since shortly after launch, so I'm excited to see this fresh discussion for an exciting new light.

    I have a question. Being that you are space/weight limiting this light to run from a single internal cell, would you mind sharing your reasons for using an 18650 instead of the slightly larger 21700? I don't know what the weight comparison is, so maybe that alone would answer my question, but it seems like it would be simpler to fit the slightly larger single cell 21700 than it would to design enough room for a second 18650. Wouldn't the run time increase be fairly significant?

    I've occasionally seen reference around this forum to the larger 21700 *(or maybe it was the 20700), suggesting that it is only a matter of time before they are developed into a bike light. It seems to me that a self contained, USB chargeable light would be the perfect way to implement such a change (not having to worry about compatibility with existing chargers/battery packs etc..).

    *edited to add

    -Jeremy
    Forgot to address this.

    Main reason, weight. Second reason, cost. Third reason, didn't really gain much.

    The 21700 cell adds an additional 30g or so. Doesn't sound like a lot, but I was dead set determined to get under 100g total weight for the light itself.

    They are also still quite expensive compared to the 18650 at this current time. Next year might be totally different. Plus supply is somewhat tough and not super reliable with my suppliers. Surprise surprise, almost every major OEM is sucking up all the batteries worldwide. While 18650's in varying power densities and quality can purchased easily and be ready to go with custom protection circuits and wiring quickly.

    Then the whole tradeoff of weight, cost, and actual performance gain. With the quick-charge and pass-through charging that this light allows, we collectively agreed that getting an extra 20-30 minutes of runtime on a single light that is already pushing 2 hours of solid runtime on high wasn't really worth all the tradeoff's. Now if we were still working with microUSB, or didn't have passthrough charging then it might be a different discussion since that then could be a key differentiation to those on the market besides the weight and optics. Plus the cost offset of USB-C vs Micro USB probably would have covered the increased cost of 21700 vs 18650.
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  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    Forgot to address this.

    Main reason, weight. Second reason, cost. Third reason, didn't really gain much.

    The 21700 cell adds an additional 30g or so. Doesn't sound like a lot, but I was dead set determined to get under 100g total weight for the light itself.

    They are also still quite expensive compared to the 18650 at this current time. Next year might be totally different. Plus supply is somewhat tough and not super reliable with my suppliers. Surprise surprise, almost every major OEM is sucking up all the batteries worldwide. While 18650's in varying power densities and quality can purchased easily and be ready to go with custom protection circuits and wiring quickly.

    Then the whole tradeoff of weight, cost, and actual performance gain. With the quick-charge and pass-through charging that this light allows, we collectively agreed that getting an extra 20-30 minutes of runtime on a single light that is already pushing 2 hours of solid runtime on high wasn't really worth all the tradeoff's. Now if we were still working with microUSB, or didn't have passthrough charging then it might be a different discussion since that then could be a key differentiation to those on the market besides the weight and optics. Plus the cost offset of USB-C vs Micro USB probably would have covered the increased cost of 21700 vs 18650.
    My guess is unless you find a way to mass market to all the riders in the LBS's (and increase your production accordingly) or one of the major manufacturers figures out a way to make their lights as efficient as yours the 21700 batteries will be the cheap easy way for them to match your runtimes with their current single emitter designs. They will be slightly more expensive, larger and heavier but better lights because of their increased battery capacity but also should be more easily recognizable why the Hangover is a better light design.
    Mole

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    Yep, always the risk of competition coming in and swooping things up. Currently the lightest of the lights is 135g or so, going to 21700 adds another 35g right off the bat with the battery, not to mention the larger case and such, so can probably estimate that they'd be sitting at almost 180g unless they completely restructured the lights all together. We are right at the limit of potential weight reduction for a high power light. I could probably squeeze another 10g of weight out using some different design approaches, but even thermally conductive plastics are about the same density of die cast magnesium so even different materials won't change things much.

    And quite frankly, I'm not too worried. If they come out with a new 21700 then okay their runtimes might be close to what we can offer, but their beam patterns will still be circular spots.

    Now if they come out with 21700, with USB-C, and a really nice properly engineered beam pattern at a cheaper price point and feels as nice as ours.... okay maybe I'll be worried, but at that point I'm going to let our customer service, dealer programs, and ability to pivot and make changes fast be the key differentiator. And if it got to that point it'd be awesome. Means that more people are taking night riding seriously, enjoying it, and the ability to compare lights is going to come down more to how well one can judge a lamp by runtime, constant output, beam pattern width, depth, peak intensitys, color, etc. instead of just reported FL1 lumens and runtime, which we all know suck.
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    Ordered mine a few days ago. Hope they make it out before October. Fingers crossed it all goes well for you and us.

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    Got mine on order as well to replace my aging Exposure Diablo. Coming from the Diablo I'd like to put in one request. A 1 hour bright mode. I get a ton of rides in early fall or late spring that require less than an hour of light. It'd be nice to max it out for those rides. I also using it splitboarding at night, which also require less than an hour.
    Come stay and play at da Kingdom Trails! - http://www.homeaway.com/vacation-rental/p3486813

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    Damn, Instagram really doesn't want us to see those beamshots!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Velodonata View Post
    Damn, Instagram really doesn't want us to see those beamshots!
    I've been itching to post on here all day. Finally got a chance to get to the desktop.

    So here are some of the near production-quality prototype optics. We are already going to tighten things up a hair to bump up the peak lux on the hotspot, but we are about 80% where we want to be in terms of the beam quality and intentions.

    Remember, this is with around 800 lumens, being pushed through hand-polished optics rather than production grade PMMA so the quality will only get better from here. The light being compared starts with an N, ends with an A, rhymes with Lumens, and is the similar price point model. So using around 1000-1100 lumens depending on who you believe.

    Can see a similar philosphy that I like to follow. Little wider and smoother hotspot, but more mid-range fall-off and lots of foreground illumination to make the surrounding areas appear more well lit and allow your eye to take in more information. We are able to get a lot of the ambient lighting due to the blended TIR approach. It's mostly uncontrolled scatter but it's even enough that it's not an issue in terms of strong artifacts.

    Outbound Lighting Hangover --- Discussion ----65443964_458649701581010_2516820740620156928_n.jpg

    Outbound Lighting Hangover --- Discussion ----65749977_1311328252363988_7991170628579229696_n.jpg

    Outbound Lighting Hangover --- Discussion ----66204475_625454924531766_671846860641533952_n.jpg

    Outbound Lighting Hangover --- Discussion ----65911508_418623018735844_4099128138900963328_n.jpg

    Note this last one. That's JUST hangover, that's not the Trail Edition turned on (you can tell since the status lights are off). I think helps show that the light on it's own will actually be a decent bar light too.

    So yea. We are pretty amped about this. We know what to improve on as production starts up. Tooling has been getting cut, and we are finalizing the SMT schedule. Working on business financing to get over 2000 (potentially 3000) units to start so that we won't run out again in the fall.

    In the last 5 weeks we have had over 400 pre-orders. Initially I was planning on maybe 1000 units to start, never thought the demand would be this strong!
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  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    I've been itching to post on here all day.

    So here are some of the near production-quality prototype optics. We are already going to tighten things up a hair to bump up the peak lux on the hotspot, but we are about 80% where we want to be in terms of the beam quality and intentions.
    Are you still shooting for a 80 lux max. or something higher? Beamshots look good. Thanks!!!
    Mole

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    Wow...Are those beam shots of the comparison light correct? Is there really just dead black space with what looks like no light bleed/scatter to form a perfect circle of tunnel vision type light? I am assuming that the light Iím looking at is the same one that starts with a N and ends with an A 1200 lumen light running on boost mode.

    The Hangover is coming together nicely and is looking to be able to stand proudly on its own legs.

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    Here's the thing about trying to take photos of lamps that you are trying to display to show throw; No photo is ever going to be able to display what the eye sees in real life. Particularly true if the lamp also has a great deal of spill ( Which ) this ones does without a doubt. That's because the camera will react to the close in spill and effect the display of the distance throw.

    In the last photo can you tell us the distance from the bike to the last skinny little tree on the right (?) From the last photo I can detect a semblance of a central hot spot although it is blended very well with the rest of the beam pattern ( very well done if I do say ).

    Although I know that the Hangover lamp is not in it's finally stage of design I can't help but think that a little extra power ( maybe 1000-1200 lumen ) might be the better way to go. 800 is not bad but on those fast MTB down-hills I'd feel better having a bit more power to increase the distance throw. With the lamp I currently use on the helmet ( Wiz XP-3 ) I usually cruise with the lamp in my medium mode programmed somewhere around 600-800 lumen although I have no way to measure that so that is my ball park est. Most of the time I'm quite happy with that. I only turn on the boost mode when on the most technical of fast-moving downhills.

    A couple more comments; With the limited battery size / capacity a wireless remote would come in real handy with a lamp like the Hangover. That's because when you use a lamp that is using a self-contained battery you want to be sure to only use the amount of light ( power ) that you actually need for the moment ( so you don't run out of power prematurely ). To do that without a wireless remote means you will be reaching up to the helmet on a regular basis. I do this with my XP-3 because it doesn't use a wireless remote but since I use an external battery it's not a big deal to use the mid-mode as much as I want. Also in keeping with the same thought ( being conservative with the battery ) would be a nice touch if you could program the modes for the output that you ( the user ) find the most useful.

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by cue003 View Post
    Wow...Are those beam shots of the comparison light correct? Is there really just dead black space with what looks like no light bleed/scatter to form a perfect circle of tunnel vision type light? I am assuming that the light Iím looking at is the same one that starts with a N and ends with an A 1200 lumen light running on boost mode.

    The Hangover is coming together nicely and is looking to be able to stand proudly on its own legs.
    Yep, circle beam patterns tend to do that. However the iPhone being used does have the limitations that it can't pickup the low-light scatter that occurs from bounces off trees, or even the lenses itself. So it's not quite "pitch black" in person, but it's very very dark and has that sharp cutoff.

    Prettyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy close on that guess of which light it is. However this can also extend to really any bowl-type reflector since by the inherent nature of the design, you'll end up with a sharp ring unless you put some heavy filters on the outside of the lens.

    That is where the blended TIR approach comes in handy, it allows for a mix of concentrated directed light, but also provides some scatter to fill the surroundings.

    We have already made some larger design changes to the lens, should have legit production samples in 3 weeks or so, and once we green-light that we'll have 3000 units about 4-5 weeks after that. Main change is that we are severely reducing the amount of facets on the front, potentially going to a smooth face. Tweaked the actual TIR design a bunch based on the feedback that Tom provided to get a smoother beam with a little more punch. Actually pulled the overall beam pattern in about 5* on each side and changed the distribution a bit.
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    In on the preorder, excited to try, looks like a great light.

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    Would this converter work for my current battery packs to use with this light head, should I need the extra run time? (My packs have the standard magicshine connectors)

    https://www.newegg.com/p/2VH-001M-00...E&gclsrc=aw.ds

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    Mestapho, it might, I can't guarantee anything given I haven't tested it.

    Status update with the Hangover.

    We have all the suppliers lined up. Hard part samples are arriving next week and we'll have about 30 units floating around getting tested and reviewed. We are doing all the SMT, PCBA, and final assembly at mHub in downtown Chicago. Awesome small startup accelerator that caters to hardware, been invaluable so far in helping to scale the business.

    We are still on target for early-fall delivery. I don't want to promise a specific date until we have the hard part samples in hand and approved. Since any small changes might set things back a few weeks.

    With that in mind, once we approve the hard parts we are going to drop the Pre-Order pricing from 30% off to 15%. So only another week or so to save the most!
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    Awesome update. Thank you for that. Will this light also have the ďlimpĒ home feature where it cuts light output and is not user controlled to enable/disable that feature? I know there was discussion in the road/trail thread of your other lights and you said you will have to further investigate possible changes etc. Will those changes also be incorporated here? Any chances for user upgradeable firmware for changes/feature enhancements so we donít have to send the light back to you?

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by cue003 View Post
    Awesome update. Thank you for that. Will this light also have the ďlimpĒ home feature where it cuts light output and is not user controlled to enable/disable that feature? I know there was discussion in the road/trail thread of your other lights and you said you will have to further investigate possible changes etc. Will those changes also be incorporated here? Any chances for user upgradeable firmware for changes/feature enhancements so we donít have to send the light back to you?
    We'll definitely be improving the software to make sure there is a true override. This won't be nearly as aggressive.

    As for future software updates. Solid.... maybe? Since there is a USB plug it certainly opens up the door to that, however we are still programming the boards via pins on the PCB itself. So I would have to check if we even have traces going to the USB to allow for future updates.
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    I just placed my order for a Hangover!

    This will be my very first bike light. I've written MTBs for a couple decades and dirtbikes even longer. Although I've taken my dirtbikes out at night (w/ stock headlights) and had some fun, I've never been out at night with a MTB. So, I recently decided this winter it was time and began researching.

    Since it was my first light, I wanted to keep the cost low to learn if I like riding at night and what I wanted from my lights. So I set my price point for a system around $100 and around a 2 hr runtime. Pretty quickly I homed in on a system of 2 NR Lumina Micro 850s. For $95, I could have 1 for the bars and 1 for the helmet. But, I'd need to add $15 for a GoPro mount for the helmet application. Doing further searches I stumbled across a YouTube video posted the Outbound Road and Trail lights. I was really impressed with the Trail and Trail/Road combo, so I looked up this company I had not heard of yet. That's how I found the Hangover.

    As a product development engineer, I appreciate the information and detailed design discussion on the website and in this thread. Also, I totally followed the logic behind the decisions made to arrive at the design (Must Haves, Trade Offs, etc.). My experience riding dirtbikes at night also told me that the light carpet and brightness gradient vs round w/ hot center approach was much more effective.

    So, I placed my order while the 30% off price was still available.

    The Hangover may not be my final solution, but I'm pretty certain it will be part of it. It will certainly be a great start point and I doubt I'll be disappointed.

    Thanks everyone, especially Outbound Lighting, for having the discussion. It was a big help in my decision process.

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    Hi Matt,

    How does the Hangover beam pattern compare with the Seca 2500?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    Yep, always the risk of competition coming in and swooping things up. Currently the lightest of the lights is 135g or so,
    I am using now ~7 Years Zerbas H600 on my Helmets.
    They are ~39 grams with 18650 cell what is 45 gram you have a total of 84 grams.

    A empy cell is to change with a handle.
    The beam looks similar to your beamshots what you have posted.

    Zebras a offerd in 6000K, 5000K and 4000K high CRI options.

    Zerba always update there lights to actual LED generations.

    At moment XHP50 Series what give you in compare to your light 2 Hours in 800 Lumen coz the LED drains only 1,5 Amps do deliver that Output.

    there are a lot of other Helmets lights like the Zebras on the market.

    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post

    Now if they come out with 21700, with USB-C,
    Also long time Existing,
    Acebeam H30 what ist 80 grams, wit 21700 cell 144 grams.
    about the XHP70 the real runtimes and outputs.

    1150 Lumen for 3 Hours.
    or 2200 Lumen for 1,5 Hours.

    And now the Question coz i dont understand what you write.

    You put into this light 6x XQ-E HI LEDs right?
    i have measured this LED on the highes bins some years ago an never reach at ~300-350ma current 100 Lumens output in a light sphere.

    or if it is easyer,
    This LED not Reach 100 lumens/1 Watt Power.
    6 of them together need more then 8 Watt on Power to Reach 600 LED Lumens.

    if you try now,
    to reach an Real Output of 800 Lumens in Front of your Light it will cost you ~ 3 Amps or~10-11 Watts energy.

    a single 18650 have ~10 Wh capacity.
    the other sad think, 6 of this LEDs have in total a lower eff then a Single XM-L2 LED.


    On your Website i read that You say your light with this LED types gives 800 Lumen for 2 Hours with a single 18650?????

    can you explain how you get over 20 Wh from a 10 Wh cell?

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    Quote Originally Posted by stu06 View Post
    Hi Matt,

    How does the Hangover beam pattern compare with the Seca 2500?
    The Seca 2500 will definitely outpunch this thing on lumens alone. However the beam pattern should be fairly similar. Seca is good in that it has a nicely diffused yet punchy pattern. I would wager that Hangover will be a little bit tighter since I have designed this with fixed helmet mounting in mind, so the beam pattern doesn't have to be as wide as something mounted for the handlebars.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lostplaces View Post
    I am using now ~7 Years Zerbas H600 on my Helmets.
    They are ~39 grams with 18650 cell what is 45 gram you have a total of 84 grams.

    A empy cell is to change with a handle.
    The beam looks similar to your beamshots what you have posted.

    Zebras a offerd in 6000K, 5000K and 4000K high CRI options.

    Zerba always update there lights to actual LED generations.

    At moment XHP50 Series what give you in compare to your light 2 Hours in 800 Lumen coz the LED drains only 1,5 Amps do deliver that Output.

    there are a lot of other Helmets lights like the Zebras on the market.



    Also long time Existing,
    Acebeam H30 what ist 80 grams, wit 21700 cell 144 grams.
    about the XHP70 the real runtimes and outputs.

    1150 Lumen for 3 Hours.
    or 2200 Lumen for 1,5 Hours.

    And now the Question coz i dont understand what you write.

    You put into this light 6x XQ-E HI LEDs right?
    i have measured this LED on the highes bins some years ago an never reach at ~300-350ma current 100 Lumens output in a light sphere.

    or if it is easyer,
    This LED not Reach 100 lumens/1 Watt Power.
    6 of them together need more then 8 Watt on Power to Reach 600 LED Lumens.

    if you try now,
    to reach an Real Output of 800 Lumens in Front of your Light it will cost you ~ 3 Amps or~10-11 Watts energy.

    a single 18650 have ~10 Wh capacity.
    the other sad think, 6 of this LEDs have in total a lower eff then a Single XM-L2 LED.


    On your Website i read that You say your light with this LED types gives 800 Lumen for 2 Hours with a single 18650?????

    can you explain how you get over 20 Wh from a 10 Wh cell?
    Hi!

    Seems odd that this is your first post on this forum, plugging a bunch of products that no one really recommends around here because they aren't designed for biking, and trying to say my numbers are illegit, but I'll go through them anyways.

    Weight: We are right at 100g with the 45g cell battery inside, along with a magnesium die cast housing so that it can actually dissipate the heat. So an actual housing/lens/electronics weight of 55g. The nearest competitor is the NR Lumina and the L&M Urban that are around 135g, so it's significant.

    In our market research we found that most people don't want to be carrying extra 18650 cells, have a separate cell charger, and would rather have high speed USB-C charging. Also part of why that Zebra light is probably 16g lighter (nevermind the mass needed to have the built in gopro mount on hangover).

    The zebra light looks like a nice running light or something, not sure how you would securely attach that to a bike helmet.

    Also the beam pattern is not similar. The Zebra light and all those other lights you are mentioning are using bowl reflectors. By their very nature (and because they are off the shelf) they will form a harsh cutoff on the edge of the beam and be circular in nature. Only way to escape that is a lot of secondary light shaping via lenses and stuff.

    We are indeed using the XQ-E Hi chips and they do perform to their datasheet. The engineer helping me on the electrical is a former CREE labs R&D manager. He knows his shit, is anal about making sure the specs are right and meeting his targets.

    Perhaps you were testing knockoff chips, or testing with a bad heatsink and not doing the proper steps to really ensure that you can actually get full efficiency out of the lights. We aren't running this at the full 320 lumens because the efficiency would fall off way too quickly since the heatsink would overheat.

    Needless to say, we have already tested with the chips running at the proper current/voltage to hit 800-900 lumens and it has lasted for the claimed 2 hour runtime with very little droop. This method of using lots of low power LED's to boost efficiency and improve the beam pattern is proving to be good.

    We are invested in a high quality LG Chem battery that matches the power consumption of the light. Not cheap at all, in fact the second most expensive part in the light behind the PCBA but a high quality battery is absolutely essential in this type of product.

    We are looking like we SHOULD start being able to assemble and ship product by the end of September. Things are well underway.
    OutboundLighting.com
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    We are looking like we SHOULD start being able to assemble and ship product by the end of September. Things are well underway.

    Very exciting! Some friends and I are looking forward to trying them out!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    Hi!

    Seems odd that this is your first post on this forum, plugging a bunch of products that no one really recommends around here because they aren't designed for biking,


    The zebra light looks like a nice running light or something, not sure how you would securely attach that to a bike helmet.
    Sorry but its not your decision for what a light ist design for.
    This lights can be used for anything, Running, Skiing, Caving or like i used it and others use them for bikiing.

    and fixing is much more easy then Gopro stuff, put it in the basic silikonholter and with a strab on the helmet.


    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    The nearest competitor is the NR Lumina and the L&M Urban that are around 135g, so it's significant.
    sound funny, take overpriced XM-L chrap light what fits you best and decide that is your competitor....
    serious?

    You want 100$ for your light , then Prefesionall 100$ helmet lights are the competitors.


    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    In our market research we found that most people don't want to be carrying extra 18650 cells, have a separate cell charger, and would rather have high speed USB-C charging
    you think really an Ready to use 18650 what weights 45 gram ist more a Problem then a Powerbank 150 grams cabels and other stuff?

    and if the battery is empty in the woods and i stay in the dark i have to put out the powerbank and start charging.....wait Hours to get home?

    a Lightweight Replacement Battery is a stock equip for Longtime Rides.


    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post

    Also the beam pattern is not similar. The Zebra light and all those other lights you are mentioning are using bowl reflectors.
    all those other Lights?
    you dont know one of them right?

    for example Olight H2R oder Armytek wizard Pro have TIR opticle Lensen with a smoother beam then your light.

    We are talking about Professionell 100$ Helmet lights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    We are indeed using the XQ-E Hi chips and they do perform to their datasheet.
    most times they far away from theoreticly stuff, real time conditions and somethink on the paper different worlds.
    check out LED measurments in BLF an you see it.

    But also ehat you say here can not be.
    in the Datasheet is the highes Flux R3 reach on 350ma 122 Lumens.
    That says 120 Lumens per Watt
    if you Power 6 of them on this Current you need 2100ma=2,1 Amps to reach in theory 120x6= 720 and after Driver and Optics you have in the best situation ~600 Lumens.

    in Real world Test i measurd much lower Outputthen on paper on ~300ma and mounted the LED on 500grams Pure Copper.

    if you only take the Datasheet your are also far Away from that what you write.
    IF you take only take Datasheeet for Promotion you Calculate also Wrong, if you take this you need a minimum of 2,5 Amps to reach ner 800 Lumens.

    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post

    Needless to say, we have already tested with the chips running at the proper current/voltage to hit 800-900 lumens and it has lasted for the claimed 2 hour runtime with very little droop.
    What is a very little drop?
    5 seconds 800 Lumend then drop to 450 Lumens and run at this point 2 Hours?
    Thats possible coz it hits the Specs from Datasheet.

    So i still not know what ist the Current from the Battery to the Driver?
    What binning you are Using?

    What type of Light Sphere are u using?

    Pkease post a Light Sphere measurment from the Complete runtime in this threat, thx.

    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    , along with a magnesium die cast housing so that it can actually dissipate the heat.
    That i am not understand to, why Magnesium?
    coz it sound nice?

    this material is in all aspekts of handling Heat a Wrong chose vs Aluminium.
    For that reason you 50 gram magnesium housing handle Heat like a 30 gram Aluminium Housing.

    Or if i Try with Magnesium to reach the abilitys from Alu i need much more Material!!

    Magnesium ist a very bad material, thats why nobody use it, for Heatsink applications.

    Your Light will have heavy Tempertaur Problems.

    Do you think Professional Helmet Lights are just for fun, all of them Full Aluminium Body with copper Cores for The LED or DTP MCPCB boards?

    I can say certainly only one think, 800 Lumens for 2 Hours with this LEDs is on the paper and i real world absolutly impossible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    Hi!

    Seems odd that this is your first post on this forum, plugging a bunch of products that no one really recommends around here because they aren't designed for biking, and trying to say my numbers are illegit, but I'll go through them anyways.
    Outbound, as i wrote in the Acebeam thread: arguments with this user are most probably useless, i think i know him from a different forum, his arguments are suspiciously similar to the ones in the other forum. He only reads what is useful to him, arguments which don't fit to his opinion are ignored and he thinks he knows everything, albeit not having the proper knowledge or understanding. (He has knowledge in some fields, but in less than he writes about)

    I think it's a hopeless case, so be warned...

    Quote Originally Posted by lostplaces View Post
    take overpriced XM-L chrap light
    That's one of his favorite (and telltale) arguments and therefore he goes on about any lamp with that LED die incorporated... (or more common: any lamp which does not use an XHP die)

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    Quote Originally Posted by biking_tg View Post
    Outbound, as i wrote in the Acebeam thread: arguments with this user are most probably useless, i think i know him from a different forum, his arguments are suspiciously similar to the other forum.
    The fact he's saying that magneisum is a bad material tells me about all I need to know. Looking at datasheets and not applying it to real world examples. Anyone who actually engineers heat sinks will know that it's not the thermal conductivity of the heat sink that matters, it's how fast you can remove the heat. Since we aren't cooling lights in water or in speeds in excess of 60mph, the main chokepoint is the convection of air wicking heat away from the surface.

    Because it's all about surface area, we can maximize the surface area, but keep the weight low with magnesium since the lower thermal conductivity of aluminum isn't the thermal chokepoint in the lamp.

    Everyone sticks with aluminum mostly because A: it's cheap, B: they look at the thermal conductivity number and think nothing else, and C: easier to do things like anodize, etch, and has better corrosion resistance. That is why our housings are powdercoated. Can't really anodize (which I'd prefer), plating is far too expensive, and paint looks like crap. So powdercoat it is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    The fact he's saying that magneisum is a bad material tells me about all I need to know. Looking at datasheets and not applying it to real world examples. Anyone who actually engineers heat sinks will know that it's not the thermal conductivity of the heat sink that matters, it's how fast you can remove the heat. Since we aren't cooling lights in water or in speeds in excess of 60mph, the main chokepoint is the convection of air wicking heat away from the surface.

    Because it's all about surface area, we can maximize the surface area, but keep the weight low with magnesium since the lower thermal conductivity of aluminum isn't the thermal chokepoint in the lamp.

    Everyone sticks with aluminum mostly because A: it's cheap, B: they look at the thermal conductivity number and think nothing else, and C: easier to do things like anodize, etch, and has better corrosion resistance. That is why our housings are powdercoated. Can't really anodize (which I'd prefer), plating is far too expensive, and paint looks like crap. So powdercoat it is.
    I think anyone who has been following this thread or the OG Outbound thread knows you know your stuff. Don't feed the troll.

    The fact that he compares that flashlight beam to yours as similar was enough to see he's FOS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    Everyone sticks with aluminum mostly because A: it's cheap, B: they look at the thermal conductivity number and think nothing else, and C: easier to do things like anodize, etch, and has better corrosion resistance.
    Another advantage of aluminum is the fact hat you can cnc machine it from a block to almost any desirable form without requiring a specialized tool (besides the cnc machine) (actually it comes with your point "A: it's cheap"). For casting of magnesium you need a mold, which makes it probably more expensive in the beginning, but cheaper on the long run. The Lupine CEO wrote in their forum that a cnc machine runs nearly 60 mins for one lamp housing....

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    Quote Originally Posted by biking_tg View Post
    Outbound, as i wrote in the Acebeam thread: arguments with this user are most probably useless, i think i know him from a different forum, his arguments are suspiciously similar to the other forum. He only reads what is useful to him, arguments which don't fit to his opinion are ignored, and he thinks he knows everything, albeit not having the knowledge or understanding in a certain area.

    I think it's a hopeless case, so be warned...


    That's one of his favorite (and telltale) arguments and therefore he goes on about any lamp with that LED die incorporated... (or more common: any lamp which does not use an XHP die)
    Pretty obvious he has ideas of what suits him and what suits him is the only choice. I've played with XHP35, XHP50, and XHP70 emitters and one thing is for certain you are not going to get a decent beam for biking without, at the minimum, a 35mm diameter reflector. The die size is just too darn large to work with smaller reflectors or TIR optics.
    GoPro adapters for bike lights http://www.pacifier.com/~kevinb/index.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by biking_tg View Post
    Another advantage of aluminum is the fact hat you can cnc machine it from a block to almost any desirable form without requiring a specialized tool (besides the cnc machine) (actually it comes with your point "A: it's cheap"). For casting of magnesium you need a mold, which makes it probably more expensive in the beginning, but cheaper on the long run. The Lupine CEO wrote in their forum that a cnc machine runs nearly 60 mins for one lamp housing....
    To be fair, can do that with a block of magnesium too. We CNC our prototypes out of magnesium blocks while developing new ones.

    I remember reading the same thing about the CNC time. Which I found nuts. Either they have their own machines and the 60 minutes is for early prototypes, or they really do run that inefficiently, and part of why they have such high prices, ha.
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    Unless Lupine are using some really doodly CNCs, there is nothing about their housings that should require an hour of CNC runtime to machine. Looking at an Alpha I see 3 or 4 operations on a 3 axis CNC like mine and about 20 minutes total runtime in a production mode.
    GoPro adapters for bike lights http://www.pacifier.com/~kevinb/index.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vancbiker View Post
    Unless Lupine are using some really doodly CNCs, there is nothing about their housings that should require an hour of CNC runtime to machine. Looking at an Alpha I see 3 or 4 operations on a 3 axis CNC like mine and about 20 minutes total runtime in a production mode.
    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    To be fair, can do that with a block of magnesium too. We CNC our prototypes out of magnesium blocks while developing new ones.

    I remember reading the same thing about the CNC time. Which I found nuts. Either they have their own machines and the 60 minutes is for early prototypes, or they really do run that inefficiently, and part of why they have such high prices, ha.
    Out of interest, why do you cast the housings then? cheaper? faster? more sustainable as you use less raw material? allows finer details and structures?

    Regarding CNC runtimes: here (https://forum.lupine.de/viewtopic.ph...&t=6702#p39224) the CEO says 68 mins for the new piko housing with a 5 axis cnc machine. I have no clue about machining alumina, so i can't add anything to this point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vancbiker View Post
    P I've played with XHP35, XHP50, and XHP70 emitters and one thing is for certain you are not going to get a decent beam for biking without, at the minimum, a 35mm diameter reflector.
    Most bike Lights come with XM-L2 LEDs an simple 20mm Lenses or Reflektors, This LED have a ~double Size from an XHP35 Hi, so i see you have Played alot.

    And i have a Questions on Outbound not on You, its absolutly not interessting what LEDs who uses.

    But i have a big Problem with wrong advertising, what i see here!

    And excuses dont bring more infos.

    If Outbound decide to make a Light with LED what deliver on the Datasheet and in Real world conditions under <100 Lumen per Watt so it is more then wrong to promise here ~180 Lumen per Watt.

    And i mention only one of a LED types what abel to do this promise from Outbound.

    Other LEDs can reach ~200 lumens per Watt easy to.

    for example an Samsung LH351D performes on 0,25A with 220 Lumen per Watt or 0,5A with 200 Lumens per Watt.
    And there are alot other LEDs at this Level, but thats not the point.

    The Point is.
    the XQ-E HI is a <100 Lumen per Watt type, and that caused naturally alot Questions!!

    To give a Anwer on simple questions is a Live Task for you Outbound?

    Again,

    What Current is drawed into your Boost driver and after it into the LEDs on your ~850 LED or out of the Front Lumen what you promise?

    What type of Light Sphere you have used for your measurment DIY or Industrial?

    pls post a Graph with Current and Lightsphere Lumens from the complete Runtime to clear here alot of thinks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lostplaces View Post
    Most bike Lights come with XM-L2 LEDs an simple 20mm Lenses or Reflektors, This LED have a ~double Size from an XHP35 Hi, so i see you have Played alot.....
    If you had reasonable reading ability you would note that I did not include XHP35 Hi in the emitters I have tried on my test rig. Also my preference for XML is a 35mm reflector or optic as 20mm is also not good with that emitter.
    GoPro adapters for bike lights http://www.pacifier.com/~kevinb/index.html

  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by biking_tg View Post
    Out of interest, why do you cast the housings then? cheaper? faster? more sustainable as you use less raw material? allows finer details and structures?
    Muuuucccchhhh cheaper at scale. One expensive tool can make 10,000 units, vs machining. Plus can get better surfaces and such.

    Any machined housing worth it's salt being used in a high scale enviroment will have rounded corners, straight lines, etc. to maximize the CNC runtime. All the machined housings for cheap lights are often from extruded aluminum stock, so only a few operations are needed for tapping, holes, etc.

    While in order to have a more organic look, shaped fins, etc. have to go to die casting for it to be affordable. We can prototype for a few hundred bucks and a week of time, while a die casting tool takes 5 weeks to make, but can then churn out housings at a buck or two each. The real cost of the lights comes from the battery and electronics.

    Regarding the integrating sphere, we have access to pro level stuff (3m wide spheres at CREE and a few other companies we are connected with) but haven't bothered yet because as many of you know, I don't care about lumen levels.

    I care more about beam pattern and perceived brightness. I don't know why flashlight guys care SO much about the tiny little lumen differences. Our eyes literally cannot tell a 10-15% difference in brightness, and the testing procedures are so easily gamed that lumen levels in a sphere unless testing multiple lights at the same time under the same conditions under the same sphere don't matter.

    The automotive industry rate their lights based on lux at distances, design lamps with candela targets set out both internally and due to external regulations. We set out with design targets to hit for the actual lighting profile, and trying to hit it with the minimum lumens possible. If I could hit the targets with 500 lumens I would be and would be proud to show it.

    As I mentioned before we could very easily make this current light hit 2000 lumens by overdriving the XQ-E chips for a few minutes, then rapidly fall off to 1000 lumens and drop to 500 to claim 2 hours. Basically what a lot of current lights do. Except I don't care to try and do that. We are developing this light to produce a solid amount of light designed to mount to the helmet for MTB riding, with a solid runtime that doesn't diminish much over time, while making it light as possible.

    Also don't forget the USB-C charging, can fully charge from zero to 100% in an hour. Or have an external battery pack hooked up via the USB-C and keep feeding it while you are riding, so no need to swap out batteries. Hell top it off when you take a 15 minute break and you'll get an extra 30 minutes of runtime.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post

    As I mentioned before we could very easily make this current light hit 2000 lumens by overdriving the XQ-E chips for a few minutes......
    To get 2000 Out of the Fronrt Lumens, need to pump in over 14 Amps/45 Watt into 6 XQ-E to reach near this Value but the bigger problem ist they Burn down in under <3 Secounds.

    better Heat dissipation from a copper/aluminium konstruction, a ~50 gram aluminium Body will be heated up with 40 Watts in ~25 secound to over 80įC= LEDs burn down.

    over 40 Watt Heat from LEDs in a 50 gram Magnesium case for minutes?

    Sorry for the Question but you have any idea about LEDs?
    And any idea of the LEDs what are in your Projekt?

    Your professional knowledge about LEDs are really more the low what i read here, only this post shows is more then clear.


    If you are only the Advertising department for someone ask the technician befor you write that typ of stuff pls.

    Again the most imported Question for your Technician!!!

    You Put into your Light LEDs types what can deliver in best Datasheet situations ~100 Lumens per Watt!
    what says simply over 8,5 Watt, 9-10 Watts are realistic Power after Driver and Optics to reach 850 lumens out of the Front.

    That says your Light need 10 Watts per Hour or 1 18650 cell will be burned down in 1 Hour!

    And Promise here potantial byers the Double Runtime from Datasheet specs is simply a visible Lie.

    To reach 2 Hours on Runtime with 850 Lumens from 1x 18650 cell need LEDs what are able to deliver 180 lumen per watt on this Output!!!

    Can you answer this question!

    Then i see a big safty Problem here 1 Hour Charge time with a single Li-ion cell?

    Some Li-ion basic for your technician:

    it is not allowed to charge Li-ion cells faster then 1C, coz risk of thermal runaway.
    Li-ion batterys must charged with the CC-CV method.
    that means 90% with a Constant current and the last 10% in CV mode to 4,2 Volt.

    so the fastest possible an nearly save charge speed or time is 1 Hour and 30 minutes for every li-ion cell, to not risk burn down my house.

    it will help to explain in all details your C Rating of your charge and at what Voltage point your CV phase switch on, what is the end Voltage of CV?

    The Standard charge rate is 0,5 C what all Cell Producers Samsung/LG/Sony request to use for safty and Lifetime reasons.

    A Li-ion Cell will be charge in 2,5 Hours with 0,5C and a correct CC-CV method, 0,5C is 100% save and last long Lifetime of a cell, no risk of Thermal runaway.

    And thats de simply reason why Serious Producers with build in Li-ion Cells and uSB plugs for charge have all ~3 hours charge time.
    ~0,5C its a savety reason for users.
    Last edited by lostplaces; 08-25-2019 at 12:14 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    Muuuucccchhhh cheaper at scale. One expensive tool can make 10,000 units, vs machining. Plus can get better surfaces and such.
    ...
    While in order to have a more organic look, shaped fins, etc. have to go to die casting for it to be affordable.
    ...
    Regarding the integrating sphere, we have access to pro level stuff (3m wide spheres at CREE and a few other companies we are connected with) but haven't bothered yet because as many of you know, I don't care about lumen levels.
    I care more about beam pattern and perceived brightness....
    Thanks for that explanation with the advantages of casting.

    Regarding Lumens: i understand your argumentation why they are not important, i am just curious what amount of light is lost in the reflector and the silicon lense in the focal series vs the output of the LEDs naked on the PCBA. Since the color changes, this must be connected with a slight loss in output. (Still, the lights have enough output ) My scientific education kicks in here..

    However, if you loose too much light in the reflector and the lens/front cover, how could you guarantuee you still reach your set lux targets/light distribution with certain lux targets? Do they measure the lux values of the lamp at the targeted positions in automotive industry?

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    This is the last post from me to feed the troll, i promise...

    Quote Originally Posted by lostplaces View Post
    [1]You Put into your Light LEDs types what can deliver in best Datasheet situations ~100 Lumens per Watt!

    [2] a ~50 gram aluminium Body will be heated up with 40 Watts in ~25 secound to over 80įC= LEDs burn down.
    over 40 Watt Heat from LEDs in a 50 gram Magnesium case for minutes?
    regarding [1]:
    Oh Jesus, it were so helpful could you read data sheets. It were even more helpful would you understand them and could you combine the information given there.
    On the cree webpage the XQ-E Hi is rated with "Maximum Efficacy at Binning Conditions: 128 lm/W" Binning conditions according to data sheet are 85 įC (junction temperature) and 350 mA current.
    Now if you consider that the output increases with lower junction temperature (page 12 of the XQ-E data sheet), you can get at 50-60 įC a 10-12% increase in efficiency. The LED temperature during operation is shown here: https://www.instagram.com/p/ByqCplynlmf/. Since the luminous flux is given as minium, and the best binnining gives 122-130 lm/W, one obtains 134-143 lm/W at lower temperatures and currents around 330-350 mA. This sums up for 6 LEDs to in 800-860 lm, when they a re properly cooled (where we come to [2]).

    regarding [2]
    You lack the basic understanding of heat transport, so please stop arguing in this field. You just did a calculation using only the heat capacity and ignoring any effect of heat transport by air flow/forced convection. The idea of a lamp housing is not to heat up (that's the idea behind a water boiler or behind a melting furnace) but to dissipate the heat into the environment.
    We are talking about bike lamps - not multi purpose flashlights - which are intended and designed to use while riding. While riding there is an air flow around the lamp, which of course is not present without movement. This air flow takes up heat from the lamp body. Since the body has fins and a reasonable surface area, it can dissipate the heat.

    It would help if you read Outbounds Post where he explains why heat capacity and slightly lower thermal conductivity are not the limiting factors. It would further help to think about this and to try to understand it before posting a derisive reply lacking the understanding. Understanding can be a slow process and might take some time, even weeks, if you do not have the basic knowledge so far.


    And:
    Stop explaining things to (professional) people, when they haven't asked, they most probably know it a lot better than you. You just present yourself as an idiot. You don't sell/produce lights for sale, Outbound does, and contrary to you he is smart enough to get help from experts in relevant fields which are out of his expertise.
    i.e.: your 1C rate rule for charging Li-ion is bogus, otherwise all fast charge options in cars would overly endanger the battery life, which no car maker would even risk (i.e. 155 kW fast charging with a 95kWh battery, filling it up to 80% in 30 mins -->more than 1.5C)
    Last edited by biking_tg; 08-29-2019 at 11:34 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by biking_tg View Post

    regarding [1]:
    Oh Jesus, it were so helpful could you read data sheets.
    This LED draws only if i take the datasheet:
    1 Amp for ~270 LED Lumen."<90 Lumen per Watt"
    in real world conditions its much lower.

    The main Problem with this LED was.
    we try test 3 Year ago it for a graph in BLF for a there done LED performance review, the lack of DTP"direct thermal Path" Board and that this LEDs burn down at near This Point it was not Postet.

    If i Pump now into 6 of this LEDs 6 Amps i get theoreticly 1620 LED Lumen, and that is only Paper stuff.

    Now if i try to geht 2000 Real lumen from a light, like the guy from the marketing says, so i need ~2400 LED lumens"driver and optics eat alot"

    That says calculated 400 Lumens from ever of the LEDs.
    about the heavy thermal Problems of this LED it will need ~2 Amps pump into each and about the totaly overheading the eff drops down to ~50 Lumen per Watt.

    But coz i dont find a DTP board thats impossible.

    now next calculation 6x2 Amps per LED= 12 Amps in total to Reach 2000 Real lumen out of the Front.
    to take realitic 90% eff from a driver you end wit ~14 Amps drawn from a 18650 battery.

    That for any Heatsink says 40 Watt pure Heat power.

    Same like to create a boost driver who can handle 14 Amps is a life task.

    fell free to measure yourself that out , XQ-E HI i buy 3 years ago on arrow.com for 1,5$ per LED.
    That we can check your measurment.

    I burn down all what i have orderd 3 Years ago, so never post a full LED review with a realworld performancce table.

    I remeber only that it was horrible, and much lower than on the Paper.

    Thats why i wondering someone use it in a product, and thats wha i asking here how Outbound can promise here 180 Lumen per Watt on a Outputlevel from 850 lumens.

    So if they promise this there must be done a Runtimegrapgh, and that thing i will see coz its 100% away from that what XQ-E HI can do.

    If i promise you 100% more from something that it is able to do you will not ask about that?

    Can i ask you about your expirience of measuring LEDs?
    how many of them you have measured?

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    Quote Originally Posted by lostplaces View Post
    This LED draws only if i take the datasheet:
    1 Amp for ~270 LED Lumen."<90 Lumen per Watt"
    in real world conditions its much lower.

    Can i ask you about your expirience of measuring LEDs?
    how many of them you have measured?
    Can i ask about your ability to read, understand arguments and to combine given information and transfer knowledge?

    I never talked about real measurement values. There probably will be a difference between datasheet values and measured values. Outbound is talking about chip lumens (i.e. data sheet lumens). It is fair to critize this, however since Outbound gave solid reasons why lumen numbers are not important to him, just accept it.
    You claimed initially the LEDs have around 100 lm/W datasheet efficiency at best conditions. I only corrected that point and gave a reasoning and a source for my arguments.
    You just ignore all information available fo far in this thread and pick conditions which do not apply to hangover. The LED's in Hangover are not operated at 1 A, that is not possible at 2 hr runtime from a 12 Wh battery with nearly constant output. The lamp must consume around 6 W in total. With the given efficiency of the driver (96%), one ends up with 0.96 W/LED. This is very close to binning conditions with respect to drawn current, but the die stays most probably a lot cooler while riding. And here we come again to the calculation i did in my previous post... (the data of the lamp can be found on the product homepage)

    We honestly can't help you if you can't combine the information from the XQ-E HI datasheet and don't listen to us if we do this for you. Relevant graphs for my conclusions and calculations are on page 12, 15 and 17 in the datasheet.

    And further:
    You cannot compare a LED board/driver PCB board - available to an end user/customer - to a specifically custom designed PCB/LED Board . Since the lamp is produced in the first run for at least 3000 units, a properly designed custom LED board becomes affordable, which can then be designed for proper heat transfer...

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    Quote Originally Posted by biking_tg View Post
    that is not possible at 2 hr runtime from a 12 Wh battery with nearly constant output. The lamp consumes close to 6 W in total. ...
    Yes the Lamp have to Comsume ~5 Watt or easyer to understand for you for a easy Calculation example 1,5A per Hour to drain a 3000mah"3Ah battery empty"

    and no a very easy math calculation for you.
    6 LED ea take same current from the 1,5A input=250ma current ea LED.

    at 250ma or if you like it more 0,25A current can this Type of LEDs ~80 Lumens

    if you take this 6x80=~480 only LED output not from the Light itself.

    now to understand?
    we are 100% away from the 850 Lumens for 2 Hours.

    on a boost driver:
    3,2V*6=19,2Volt

    19,2 Volt LEDs/3,7Volt batterie=multiplier 5

    1,5A drawed by batterie /5=300ma into LEDs

    so a boost driver what will power 6x XQ-E HI in series for exactly 2 Hours gives:
    19,2Volt on a fixed current of 300ma= ~500 Lumens Output.

    to drive 6 XQ-E HI in series or parallel make no differenz.
    it will always end in ~500 LED lumen.

    thats not what the light will put out, i ignore Optic losses and Driver losses!


    Thats why i asked Outbound to show here the Runtime graph what have be done.

    If will check different lights for yourself.
    the easyest way to make a fast check of lights.
    to compare current from a Battery to the Driver , an the Lumen want you get with it.

    for single Cells:
    3A current=1 Hour Runtime.
    1,5A current= 2 Hours Runtime
    1A current=3 Hours of runtime.
    from a ~3000mah cell.

    and the compare that to the Real output if both mach, Lumen and the Possible runtime on the current.
    for example my Helmet light:

    if i measure the current from the battery its, 1,1 Amps.
    If i measure at this value the output in a Lightsphere i get 600 Lumens.
    so 2,8 Hours runtime on 600 Lumen matches.

    The used LED have at this current an eff of 200 lumen per Watt.
    so anythink in range.

    The next higher option is Temp regulater but for a fast check no Problem.
    Current 1,4-1,5A goes in.
    Lightsphere says 800 Lumens out.

    And the eff of the LED have in the list 186 Lumen per Watt.
    so again anythink in range.


    this typ of fast check need 3 minutes of your time on any light.

    and ~180 Lumen per Watt needet to bring exactly 800 Lumens for 2 Hours with a Single ~3000mah Battery!

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    Quote Originally Posted by lostplaces View Post
    Yes the Lamp have to Comsume ~5 Watt
    No, the battery capacity is 3.3 Ah (or 12.2 Wh at 3.7 V nominal voltage), therefore the lamp consumes 12.2 Wh/2 h = 6W or 1W per LED, which equals to a current/voltage of 343 mA * 2.9V forward voltage for the LED (p15 datasheet)

    Quote Originally Posted by lostplaces View Post
    to compare current from a Battery to the Driver
    You can't do this. Since a battery is not a constant voltage source (during operation voltage varies depending on state of charge and on drawn current), the drawn current at constant power requirement must vary (Power = Voltage x Current). Furthermore the voltage at the LED (after the driver) is not the same as the voltage on the battery side (before the driver). Therefore you cannot assume the battery current is the same as the LED current. You have to calculate with power draw..
    The LED driver is a constant current power source, which is fed with a varying voltage - depending on the state of charge of the battery and the required power draw. It transforms the supplied powerd to a constant current. As the forward voltage of the LED depends on the applied current, one can only calculate with power draw (in W) from the battery if we are talking about efficiency and if we want to relate the power draw to a lumious flux.

    Quote Originally Posted by lostplaces View Post
    at 250 mA current this type of LEDs ~80 Lumens... 6x80=~480
    I am sorry, but even this value is wrong, when we look at data sheet values and it does therefore not apply to hangover:
    Acording to data sheet (p17) the efficiency increases with decreasing current:
    1) Looking on p17 of the data sheet, one reads out 75% relative luminous flux at 250 mA from the graph.
    2) 350 mA (which equals to 1W, as calculated above) are set to 100 %, as it represents binning conditions. During operation at cooler temperatures these 100 % equal to 134-143 lm per 1W power consumption per LED, as calculated in my earlier post.
    3) So 75% of this output gives you 100-107 lm per LED. (Remember: binning conditions of 350 mA require 2.85-2.9 V, which multiplies to 1W.) This sums up to 600-642 lm. However the LEDs only require 2.8-2.85 V at 250 mA, which gives a power consumption of only 0.7-0.71 W/LED or in sum 4.2-4.3 W for 6 LEDs. (Forward voltage vs current is shown on p15 in the data sheet)

    Conclusion: obviously your calculation does not fit to hangover and your statement
    Quote Originally Posted by lostplaces View Post
    we are 100% away from the 850 Lumens for 2 Hours.
    is wrong.

    Of course all these calculations from data sheet values assume that we have no loss of light in the lens and the LEDs behave as the data sheet tells us and the temperature of the LED is below 85įC. But we are still and only talking about calculated values, not measured.

    Since i haven't won the lottery and proper integrating spheres and calibration sources are expensive, i won't buy a sphere and therefore i can't do a measurement that i would trust...

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    Quote Originally Posted by biking_tg View Post
    No, the battery capacity is 3.3 Ah (or 12.2 Wh at 3.7 V nominal voltage)
    No 18650 Battery have in real use 12 Wh, Samsung,LG,Sony,Panasonic, all the same 10Wh.

    and sorry i find only a 3200mah one
    but 3500mah 18650 can checked to.
    LG INR18650MH1 Akkutest in der Dampfakkus.de AkkuDB
    Samsung SDI INR18650-35E Akkutest in der Dampfakkus.de AkkuDB

    3.0 V 3014mAh 10.685Wh
    3.1 V 2951mAh 10.496Wh
    3.2 V 2830mAh 10.118Wh
    The usable Capacity dependet on Cut-off, Current, thermal conditions.......

    In Real world use All of this Cells have ~10Wh.

    In winter conditions a High Drain 3000mA Cell outperformce a 3500mA high capacity cell by 20-30%, for example.

    Thats why i use in Summer other cells then in Winter.

    But its no battery discussion.

    I hope we get a Runtimegraph soon from Outbound.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    The Seca 2500 will definitely outpunch this thing on lumens alone. However the beam pattern should be fairly similar. Seca is good in that it has a nicely diffused yet punchy pattern. I would wager that Hangover will be a little bit tighter since I have designed this with fixed helmet mounting in mind, so the beam pattern doesn't have to be as wide as something mounted for the handlebars.
    Hi Matt,

    Thanks for your reply. I'm going to mount two of the Hangovers on the bar and rotate each to either side to create a wider beam pattern. (That's what I'm doing currently with two Secas with great success; I like the idea, however, of having a warmer light tint and not dealing with separate batteries.)

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    Became a recent customer of a Hangover light and thought I'd see what other posts were around. I initially liked the idea of charging while in use but the location of the charge port is not great and then noticed an animation of the green LEDs when charging. If that was showing while riding, I would find it particularly distracting. Maybe Outbound could confirm whether this behaviour occurs when both light is on and simultaneously charging.

    Since there now is a possibility of a rear light, a dedicated thread giving people the opportunity to offer their opinions for a 'best rear light' may be worthwhile.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hibo3 View Post
    If that was showing while riding, I would find it particularly distracting. Maybe Outbound could confirm whether this behaviour occurs when both light is on and simultaneously charging.
    And I would find this feature useful. I guess that's the problem with asking the market for opinions

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    Quote Originally Posted by VegasSingleSpeed View Post
    And I would find this feature useful. I guess that's the problem with asking the market for opinions
    I would agree if the LEDs indicated state of charge as in one,two or three on but not if they continually ramp up and down.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hibo3 View Post
    I would agree if the LEDs indicated state of charge as in one,two or three on but not if they continually ramp up and down.
    That's a pretty universal mode on most electronics, it's nice to know it's in a charging state to know its actually taking a charge

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    Quote Originally Posted by phalkon30 View Post
    That's a pretty universal mode on most electronics, it's nice to know it's in a charging state to know its actually taking a charge
    Yes, charging the Shimano bike battery, I noticed the blinking but then I take it off the bike to charge and when on the bike, the lights are concealed by the top tube so never a distraction.

  108. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by hibo3 View Post
    I would agree if the LEDs indicated state of charge as in one,two or three on but not if they continually ramp up and down.
    Agree, I hope that if itís is being used while plugged in it doesnít flash. That would be annoying.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VegasSingleSpeed View Post
    And I would find this feature useful. I guess that's the problem with asking the market for opinions
    Yes, I would rather have the indication than not have it. And for those that are opposed to it, it is about the simplest problem there is to solve.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Velodonata View Post
    Yes, I would rather have the indication than not have it. And for those that are opposed to it, it is about the simplest problem there is to solve.
    Cover with a piece of opaque sticky tape? Looking good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Velodonata View Post
    Yes, I would rather have the indication than not have it. And for those that are opposed to it, it is about the simplest problem there is to solve.
    Solution: Electrical tape over ramping leds. I too might find it distracting if on the bars. Can't say for sure because I don't own one. No worries on the helmet.

  112. #112
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    Add 3 more to the Hangover 'pre-order' list. I just bought one and talked a couple of riding buddies into it as well. We are all long time Niterider users and have gotten by fine with them but this light looks to be an upgrade.

    Any updates from Outbound regarding ship date for Hangover?
    12 Santa Cruz Heckler
    18 Kona Process 153 AL/DL (27.5)...:thumbsup:

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    I am excited to see the final outcome of this light. I too have been a NiteRider user but also have owned and used Lupine, Light and Motion and Exposure lights but settled on self contained Light and Motion Taz 1200. I am eager to compare the Hangover to the Taz.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sturge View Post
    Add 3 more to the Hangover 'pre-order' list. I just bought one and talked a couple of riding buddies into it as well. We are all long time Niterider users and have gotten by fine with them but this light looks to be an upgrade.

    Any updates from Outbound regarding ship date for Hangover?
    Got an email from Outbound on the 9th updating progress. They have needed to tweak some aspects of the Hangover they weren't happy with, delaying production to mid/late October.

  115. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by hibo3 View Post
    Got an email from Outbound on the 9th updating progress. They have needed to tweak some aspects of the Hangover they weren't happy with, delaying production to mid/late October.
    Thanks!
    12 Santa Cruz Heckler
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    Yep, got it right. Pushed things back a bit to get things just right. Thankfully nowhere close the delays we had with the original light (4 months past the planned date, was a little too optimistic there!).

    This is a copy of what I sent everyone:

    Soooo, here we are! The days are getting shorter and I am sure you are wondering where the heckin' heck the Hangover light is that you bought.

    First off, wow, what an incredible response we've had from amazing customers like you. I was going to be thrilled if we got something like 150-180 pre-orders. As of today.... we have over 700! 😲

    We do have good news, and we do have mediocre news (wouldn't really call it bad). So let's start with the good news.

    - We started production several weeks ago on all the PCB's and electronics. This was a large worry of mine because lead times for electronics can be all over the map depending on what supplier you talk to. A small business in Arizona is doing the work for us. These will arrive with plenty of time to spare.

    - All the tooling and first article parts showed up about two weeks ago as you can see in the pictures.

    - Batteries are already complete and awaiting some parts for the Trail/Road batteries to arrive before shipping (same supplier). No delays there.

    - Customized GoPro Helmet mount is underway and will arrive in the next few weeks.

    - Packaging! Looks awesome, and will arrive soon as well.

    - Customized USB-C fast charging cable was designed and tooling started. This is a 90-degree design that will work well with light on the helmet when in use so you can attach any kind of battery pack, toss it in your backpack and keep on riding for as long as you need.

    - Software is wrapped up, and just minor tweaks being made as the prototype is played with more and more.


    So what's the mediocre news?

    - We discovered some minor issues on the hard parts that needed addressing. This is normal and usually only takes about a week or so to correct, shoot new parts, and approve.

    - Howeverrrrrr, we weren't too thrilled with the production sample optics, aka, the most important part in our eyes; and so went back to the simulations, identified the issues, corrected them, and tweaked the output a little bit. But this results in about a 2 week delay since the tool has to be modified extensively.

    So what does all this mean? Means that we were initially hoping to have parts start arriving mid-sept and start building/shipping shortly after. The delays we had with initial tooling then started to push that to the end of September, and now with the decision to tweak the optical lens will potentially push us as far out as early-to-mid October.

    All in all, the delays aren't too bad, and it's part of why I was very hesitant to ever suggest an exact shipping date. As you know, we want to give you one hell of a good light, and so in our eyes pushing things back a few weeks to get you a light that will last for years to come is always worth it.

    For those of you who want a light right away, we do have the Trail Edition shipping, and it will pair amazingly well with Hangover when it arrives!

    I can't wait to share this light with you, and see what amazing adventures you guys and gals go on! Your patience and understanding is always very humbling to me.



    Thanks!

    Matt Conte
    Owner & Engineer
    Just a little update, now that pre-order number is now 860 lights on preorder (as of 10:30pm 9-23-19).

    Also some of the updates:

    - Packaging approved and on it's way. Nice simple slim box along with a recyclable paper pulp insert.
    Outbound Lighting Hangover --- Discussion ----capture.jpg

    - Batteries are in the air and should arrive at the end of this week.
    - First batch of boards went through production to be tested, programming setup dialed in, and any kinks worked out before we go full speed on the full production.
    - Updated optics should arrive in a day or two for us to test and approve. The supplier has already promised that they will work as fast as they can in production since the tool update has taken far longer than they anticipated.
    - Looking to hire some part-time help now in the Chicago area with assembly and logistics stuff.

    Also now looking at searching for an actual commercial space in the Chicago area to setup permanent shop so that I can begin hiring some help. Outbound has been growing quite fast and what used to be a thing that'd take me maybe half a day to build all the lights for the week, is now taking up a majority of my time. The next step for this business is to try and hire some help to assist me in the day-to-day stuff so that I can continue to focus on product development, fine tuning, and the marketing/business side of things.

    It's been incredibly exciting since we launched Hangover as it has really helped give OL the leg up we needed.

    Next update should be a final shipping date in a few weeks.
    OutboundLighting.com
    Professionally Engineered LED Bike Lights
    Assembled in Chicago, IL


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    Excellent! I just got mine on pre order along with the trail kit, very excited! I must say my main reason for ordering is your diligence and passion to engineer the perfect lights so Iím happy with delays until youíre finished and signed off on your products!

    Itís really cool to see youíre company grow and I hope to see you rise through the ranks as the authority in premium lights!

    All the best!

    Richard


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  118. #118
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    2 preordered. One for me, on for my son.
    2020 Turbo Levo Comp
    2019 Strive CF 8
    2018 Farley EX 8

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    Add me to the list of pre-orders. Thanks!

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    Officially closing out the pre-order this weekend guys. Last chance!
    OutboundLighting.com
    Professionally Engineered LED Bike Lights
    Assembled in Chicago, IL


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    @Outbound...Anyway you can take the lamp out of the box and place it next to a couple common items so we can judge the size ( perhaps some loose 18650 cells, TV remote or perhaps mount on a helmet )

    It looks long/big but that might just be the lack of perspective in the photo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do View Post
    @Outbound...Anyway you can take the lamp out of the box and place it next to a couple common items so we can judge the size
    Why not compare to a Pro Helmet light like Olight H2R with TIR optic to an more power, more runtime.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do View Post
    @Outbound...Anyway you can take the lamp out of the box and place it next to a couple common items so we can judge the size ( perhaps some loose 18650 cells, TV remote or perhaps mount on a helmet )

    It looks long/big but that might just be the lack of perspective in the photo.
    Guys I hate being this guy but literally the first image in this thread is the light mounted on a helmet. Just scroll up and donít ask the OP to do the work for you. Let him spend his time building us our lights.

  124. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy_burke View Post
    Guys I hate being this guy but literally the first image in this thread is the light mounted on a helmet. Just scroll up and donít ask the OP to do the work for you. Let him spend his time building us our lights.
    Dimensions are also on the website

    Dimensions 82 x 32 x 48mm (3.2 x 1.25 x 1.9 inches)

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    Hey - would love to buy this if I knew what the brightness (lumens?) was at the lowest setting. I like to use my bike light for hanging around camp, cooking in the dark, etc on multi-day rides, and it's really nice to have a fairly dim setting for this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ryderjo View Post
    Hey - would love to buy this if I knew what the brightness (lumens?) was at the lowest setting. I like to use my bike light for hanging around camp, cooking in the dark, etc on multi-day rides, and it's really nice to have a fairly dim setting for this.
    calculating with the max. runtime (16h) and battery data (12 Wh) from the website, one gets 0.75 W Power consumption on lowest setting. Since the LEDs are run then at max. efficiency and are kept very cool, the chip lumens (without losses due to optics) will (according to the calculation in post 95) be around 100-115 lms

  127. #127
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    Since the pre order is over and you still are not shipping for 3 weeks I guess I'll just order later. I don't see an incentive to placing an order now.

  128. #128
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    Alright, update time. Once again going to be pushing the ship date back a bit. Found a few more issues in the casting that needs to be rectified before we can commit to having 2000+ of these made. One of the issues is our fault for not catching it, the other is the suppliers. Frustrating, but we are committed to delivering a seriously quality product. Hoping late October or first week of Nov.

    The optics are dialed in, and Tom has been using it nearly every night the last week or two doing charge/discharge tests and programming tweaks.

    Except for the die castings, almost all the items have arrived. Batteries show up monday, the packaging monday as well, USB cables are already here, GoPro mounts are going to arrive with the castings already pre-assembled to save more time on our end.

    Here's a few shots of the Hangover vs some common lights. First one is the Niterider Lumina 1200 Boost on top, and Hangover on bottom:

    Outbound Lighting Hangover --- Discussion ----72673235_2513533365403290_7292399966578802688_n.jpg

    And then this one is the Sigma Buster thingy vs the Hangover:

    Outbound Lighting Hangover --- Discussion ----72301732_393779018203634_4782045007164997632_n.jpg

    I did buy that O-Light H2R, and not even worth sending to Tom to compare because it's so crappy. The lighthead got so hot on the 45 second "2300 lumen" mode that it literally left a burn mark on my wooden office desk surface. I'm sure it's a great light to use around the house or on a slow stroll around the neighborhood.... but not as a bike light.

    Other exciting news, is that next week moving into our own 1200 sqft commercial space in Lincolnwood, IL so that can expand the amount of inventory on hand, hire an employee or two to help with the day-to-day work, annnnd make my wife happy because she was NOT liking the fact that I had boxes and boxes and boxes of parts, packaging, prototypes, 3d printing stuff, etc. in our spare bedroom, hallways, kitchen and more. We've been running Outbound out of our home for the last 2 years, and now grown big enough that absolutely need to get into a larger space to help keep the company growing.

    This also means that if you are in the area, would be happy to have you stop by! We are right off the North Shore River Trail near the Lincolnwood Town Center. Will post some pics once we are moved in!
    OutboundLighting.com
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  129. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post

    I did buy that O-Light H2R, and not even worth sending to Tom to compare because it's so crappy.
    Your beamshots only show that your light can not challange the 20$ range from professional helmet lights.

    if i compare the beamshots from your light and the SP40.......
    Review: Sofirn SP40 | BudgetLightForum.com


    and the SP40 is near 3 times smaller then your light and i can easy change in 5 secounds a empty to a full battery.

    Your screenshot from your light looks very similar to the beam from the thrunite TH10 v2.
    pure spot near no flood.



    You still not show a runtimegraph from your light?
    some weeks passed thats not enouth to make a 30$ DIY lightsphere an show here the real Output and runtime from your light?

    you promised here 100% more then i measured with the LED type so i asked you to show a runtimegraph, and still nothing.

    i think Light output vs runrime your light will be a good challanger ~80 lumen / Watt for the SP40.


    and i still wait on a explain how you will charge a basic 18650 Li-ion with over 1C charge current that not end in heavy lithium plating that end in very fast destroyed battery, and heavy rist of burn down my house?

    if i not burned down my house with ~50x 0-100% 1,3C charge cycles enought to send a 18650 battery to heaven.


    next what i wonder.
    how much CRI have your light, its a cool white 7000K 50 CRI ?

    i dont understand how you will challange pro helmet light companys.

    i i what great Flood i take the Olight H2R
    if i what heavy throw i take a Thrunite H10 v2
    if i what a grat allround beam i take the SP40 or my Zebralight H600 series

    in all peo helmet lights switch fast empty to full batterys is a basic.
    and they are all 2 times smaller then your light......

    you call your light the smallest on the market? not really
    you promise 900 lumen for 2 Hours but will not prove it?
    and your charging style still not explained.

  130. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by lostplaces View Post
    Your beamshots only show that your light can not challange the 20$ range from professional helmet lights.

    if i compare the beamshots from your light and the SP40.......
    Review: Sofirn SP40 | BudgetLightForum.com


    and the SP40 is near 3 times smaller then your light and i can easy change in 5 secounds a empty to a full battery.

    Your screenshot from your light looks very similar to the beam from the thrunite TH10 v2.
    pure spot near no flood.



    You still not show a runtimegraph from your light?
    some weeks passed thats not enouth to make a 30$ DIY lightsphere an show here the real Output and runtime from your light?

    you promised here 100% more then i measured with the LED type so i asked you to show a runtimegraph, and still nothing.

    i think Light output vs runrime your light will be a good challanger ~80 lumen / Watt for the SP40.


    and i still wait on a explain how you will charge a basic 18650 Li-ion with over 1C charge current that not end in heavy lithium plating that end in very fast destroyed battery, and heavy rist of burn down my house?

    if i not burned down my house with ~50x 0-100% 1,3C charge cycles enought to send a 18650 battery to heaven.


    next what i wonder.
    how much CRI have your light, its a cool white 7000K 50 CRI ?

    i dont understand how you will challange pro helmet light companys.

    i i what great Flood i take the Olight H2R
    if i what heavy throw i take a Thrunite H10 v2
    if i what a grat allround beam i take the SP40 or my Zebralight H600 series

    in all peo helmet lights switch fast empty to full batterys is a basic.
    and they are all 2 times smaller then your light......

    you call your light the smallest on the market? not really
    you promise 900 lumen for 2 Hours but will not prove it?
    and your charging style still not explained.
    Go ahead and buy one of our lights when it comes out and take it apart to do all the testing you want. You don't even believe the incredibly detailed datasheets from CREE, why are you going to believe anything we put out?

    It's very. VERY clear that you have zero interest in actually purchasing a light beyond trying to slam it as "overpriced" and that it can't compare to a cheap light. Awesome. Glad that the bar is set that low for you.

    I set out to start this company because I felt that the cheap stuff was underwhelming, and the name brand stuff was overpriced for what amounted to chips in reflector bowls. I take a lot of pride in the actual beam pattern design, and spend a fortune in the software and training to develop just that instead of pulling off-the-shelf optics like every cheap amazon light does.

    I was going to ramble on a bit more about how we literally put quality over anything else, but it's obvious that will never sway you. Feel free to trash us on the other forums because I won't give you full schematics of our boards or detailed charts or even waste time trying to argue LED characteristics when I literally have the former R&D manager for CREE labs helping me develop these things.

    His obsession over detail and quality is why I love working with him, we both share the same vision, build a company founded on quality products, and let that speak for itself. If I really was in this for the money I wouldn't be on this forum providing details and answering stuff, I'd be trying to resell cheap stuff from Alibaba on Amazon backed with a flashy website and social media ads.

    Anyways... Hangover is shaping up to be a great light. If you want to use a cheap light, awesome. There are a few threads specifically for that.
    OutboundLighting.com
    Professionally Engineered LED Bike Lights
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  131. #131
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    Beam shot look great!. Outbound lights usually have a bit wider spread than I prefer so more focused beam is a welcome surprise since that's my preference for a helmet light. Sigma Buster 700 is currently my favorite self-contained helmet light so appreciate that it was used compared to the new Hangover. Would have preferred the mode/battery life button didn't show green on the Buster (31-70% charge) but from my output testing that still falls in the 700-900 lumen range so not too much harm in this if any (Desert surroundings indicate you probably didn't shoot these Matt so "bad Tom"). I have one of those Sofirn SP40 P-style flashlights and will be comparing it to the Hangover when I get my preorder.
    Mole

  132. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    Go ahead and buy one of our lights when it comes out and take it apart to do all the testing you want. You don't even believe the incredibly detailed datasheets from CREE......
    Is it possible to get any technically competent answer from you?

    all what i read to this point ist marketingtalk without any serious info.
    first you show screens from a flooder now you show your real screens and the beam from a Thrunite TH10 v2 is to see.

    not very suprisind for a 2 times bigger light.

    but now the important things!!
    i asked you show here a runtimegraph of that what you promise from your light !!!

    i know 100% what is possible thats why i ask you to show how you came on the fantasy numbers.

    and the other very important question?
    to destroy 18650 battery with heavy overcurrent charging ist no big deal!!!!!

    i have destroy last week 3 LG batterys only for you.

    The only possible way to get charged a 18650 battery from 0 to 100% capacity in ~60 minutes ist to heavy overcurrent it far above the safe level!!!!

    CC/CV 90/10 with 1,2C , cut-off 2,8V to 4,2 Volt as chargeprofile for example 3 batterys and what happend aftter i let this charge/ dischargeprofile cycle.

    1. LG INR18650MH1
    after 52 of this cycles done the battery have lose 40% of here capacity and i dont want do more, coz fire risk.
    battery after ~50 is for Garbage can!!!!

    2. LG INR18650-MJ1
    at the chargecycle 34 the Battery internal short, it start to vent, no fire.
    lucky to not end in full thermal runaway with fire....

    3. LG INR18650-F1L
    after 43 cycles the capacity of the battery have loose >40% and i desicde for safty reason to make more cycles, fire risk.
    this batttery ist at ~40 charge cycles for Garbage can.

    i destroy 15$ in batterys for you.

    no explain here how you will charge a LG 18650 basic battery on a save way in 1 Hour that will not end after some charge cycles in a lithium thermal runaway situation?

    i have done dthis 18650 battery destruction in a fire and explosion prof container with a Junsi charger.

    so i have to place now your light every time i want to charge it in this container to be save not burn down my home?

    Save 18650 Li-ion battery charging ist <0,5C with CC/CV 80/20!!!!!!

  133. #133
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    So..... now you are going to claim I'm using an entirely different light in our comparison photos? You can CLEARLY see the niterider blue button, and overall square shape. I don't even know what this "Thrunite v102.4494 whatever" is. I don't shop Banggood all day or buy those dirt cheap lights because I know exactly what's in them and based on the reflector or TIR I can tell how they'll perform.

    I'm not worried about whatever you are rambling on about because I have incredibly talented electrical engineers with lots of experience in quick charge protocols and how to do the proper charging profiles to safely and reliably quickly charge these batteries.

    I'm not an electrical engineer by trade, I'm a mechanical and optical engineer. That's why I hire out the work to competent and trustworthy engineers who test this stuff.

    But again, why would you believe me. You don't seem to otherwise. Buy one of the lights, take it apart, criticize every component, tell me it's shit, and that I should close my business and go back to buying junk from China and rebrand it since apparently that's the best way to go. Either that or I should sell these things with zero margin for local shops, distributors, or reinvestment in new products which is what these suppliers do on places like Aliexpress and Banggood. They take advantage of the shipping subsidies that exist for China only, combined with subsidies they get from the government to offer those lights at ridiculously cheap prices in order to flood the market.
    OutboundLighting.com
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  134. #134
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    It's time to step in here and try and calm this thread down.

    @Lostplaces : Your contributions to other lighting threads (from what I have read) are quite constructive but in this thread it's derailing a startup who is trying to put a product to market.

    If @Outbound has his engineering as wrong as you claim he'll crash and burn (pun intended) in no time.

    Respectfully @Lostplaces it's unreasonable to ask for full technical specs and drawings of a proprietary product and to dissect everything @Outbound posts in minutiae. Asking for a runtime graph, I consider reasonable and if @Outbound has that I'm sure they'll post it.

    Understanding and cooperation with my request from all parties is appreciated.

  135. #135
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    @Outbound don't feed the troll. Better spend your time on producing the new light. I have ordered one.
    I would be interested how the gopro helmet mount looks like. Can you show us a picture? And I would like to mount it below my bars with a gopro spacer mount like this one:
    https://www.lupine-shop.com/en/acces...o-mount-spacer

  136. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by 6feet10 View Post
    @Outbound don't feed the troll. Better spend your time on producing the new light. I have ordered one.
    I would be interested how the gopro helmet mount looks like. Can you show us a picture? And I would like to mount it below my bars with a gopro spacer mount like this one:
    https://www.lupine-shop.com/en/acces...o-mount-spacer
    The tabs for it are literally built into the housing itself. The Gopro helmet mount that will come with it is the typical standard mount that GoPro provides. Otherwise the housing will mount onto any mount that uses the standard action camera tabs.

    Here is a picture of an early production sample prototype on Tom's bike. No silkscreen logos or anything on there yet.

    Outbound Lighting Hangover --- Discussion ----72155937_461478347912095_6567777492696825856_n.jpg

    Outbound Lighting Hangover --- Discussion ----71550619_519018832234139_3922768397951041536_n.jpg
    OutboundLighting.com
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  137. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    The tabs for it are literally built into the housing itself. The Gopro helmet mount that will come with it is the typical standard mount that GoPro provides. Otherwise the housing will mount onto any mount that uses the standard action camera tabs.

    Here is a picture of an early production sample prototype on Tom's bike. No silkscreen logos or anything on there yet.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Click image for larger version. 

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    That is exactly how I would like my light mounted. Unfortunately I donít own and have never owned any action cams and I am completely unfamiliar with the mounts etc. could you possibly get Tom to post a link to where to purchase the mount he used to get the light on his bike like that? Please and thank you. That would make my search much easier.

    I know you said you have competent engineers etc but have they tested the charging at the 50+ cycles to see if there is any degradation in capacity etc vs 3-4-5-10 times bench testing? Iím not feeding the troll but safety (longevity... not day 1 but more like 3-6 months down the road) is a concern.

    A runtime graph would be nice too if you happen to have one.

    Has the manual been completed yet? Can we a peak at it so I can read up before my 2 lights arrive?

    Thanks
    Last edited by cue003; 11-05-2019 at 11:54 AM.

  138. #138
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    Thanks @outbound, I'm also interested in Tom's mount options. I want to use the hangover for two scenarios: (1) night rides, hangover on the helmet, bigger light on the bar with external batteries. (2) backup light on the bar, when I don't make it home before dawn.

  139. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by 6feet10 View Post
    ......And I would like to mount it below my bars with a gopro spacer mount like this one:
    https://www.lupine-shop.com/en/acces...o-mount-spacer
    Mounting below the bars often requires re-routing shifter cables and brake hoses so they don't interfere with the beam. Also you will want to watch out that the mount won't hit the top tube if the bars get spun around in a crash.

    This pic shows an under bar setup one of my sons used a bit. Tidy, but shows the potential for cables getting in the beam. Especially when the cable flop up and down some on rough trail.

    Outbound Lighting Hangover --- Discussion ----micro1.jpg

    I use a stem faceplate with GoPro mount built-in for my bar light. Best mount I have used. I made mine,

    Outbound Lighting Hangover --- Discussion ----dscn2183.jpg

    but alternatives can be bought.

    https://www.worldwidecyclery.com/pro...iABEgIEefD_BwE

    https://www.amazon.com/Gub-Handlebar...a-573055326412

    I have never bought or used either of the above so no idea about the quality. Links are just for reference.
    GoPro adapters for bike lights http://www.pacifier.com/~kevinb/index.html

  140. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by 6feet10 View Post
    I would be interested how the gopro helmet mount looks like. Can you show us a picture? And I would like to mount it below my bars with a gopro spacer mount like this one:
    https://www.lupine-shop.com/en/acces...o-mount-spacer
    If you look at the Outbound Store Webpage, there is a nice picture which shows the GoPro Mount of the lamp housing. Edit: In the last picture of that instagram post the GoPro mount incl. a helmet mount is shown as well
    Since you're according to your profile able to read german, keep in mind that in the lupine forum one user complained that the gopro counter part (the male one?) to the lupine spacer (with the female one?) is thicker than the standard gopro mounts. So using the hangover you might need adjusting washers (Pass-scheiben) in combination with the lupine spacer...


    Edit: Here some arguments to show that lostplaces rambling (post #132) on the charging issue is completely useless:

    • We don't know what charging profile Outbound is using in his Hangover and Outbound is not forced to disclose this. A proper charging profile with varying or even pulsing charge rate (depending on the state of charge (SOC) of the battery cell) can do the job. I know (from people working there) that car manufacturers do research with charging profiles where in certain SOC rates up to 4 C are used.
    • for those that don't know what a C-Rate is: it relates the (dis)charge current to the cells capacity. I.e. for a 3300 mAh cell 1 C represents a (dis)charge current of 3300 mA, 0.5 C 1650 mA, 1.5 C 4950 mA
    • Most probably the used charger does not have a varying charge rate in the constant current (CC) phase of the charging. Since he showed no information on the charging profile of that charger and we don't know the charge profile for the hangover lamp, the whole test itself is useless.
    • Moreover he charged the stated cells with charging rates beyond the specified maximum: LG INR18650 F1L has max charge rate of 0.5 C / 1600 mA, the other two have max charge rates of 1 C. He could have i.e. used a LG ICR 18650 HG2 cell, which is specified to 1.5 C charging rate. That would have made his test at least a bit useful, but this way it was just a waste of time and batteries.
    • We don't know what cell outbund is using and again he is not obliged to disclose that information.


    The only proper way to investigate whether the hangover charge profile is safe (of which i am sure) would be to buy the light, and do i.e. 100 charge/discharge cycles using the lamp to quick charge the battery, then take out the battery and discharge it while recording the current/voltage to get the remaining capacity. Again, i am pretty sure Outbound (or his electrical engineer) did something like this.

    I personally strongly think that we can trust Outbound that he only uses cells that survive the applied charging protocoll. He has proved his trustworthiness and competence over time, while lostplaces has proved his incompetence in some fields a bit too often.
    Last edited by biking_tg; 11-10-2019 at 06:21 AM.

  141. #141
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    On an endurance ride where weight is a big factor what are your thoughts on running the Hangover light on both the helmet and bars? Heck you could even carry a third one as backup in case batteries die without much weight penalty. And itís obviously a cheaper solution. Thoughts?

  142. #142
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    A third light as a back up may be excessive. The light can be charged while running by USB C from a suitable battery pack.

  143. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    Alright, update time...we are committed to delivering a seriously quality product. Hoping late October or first week of Nov.
    Not to be antsy, but the time change is this weekend and night riding becomes mandatory for us working stiffs. Any ETA on the product? My son and I are itching!
    2020 Turbo Levo Comp
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  144. #144
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    Hopefully soon...I'm also looking forward to getting this light! Luckily I have my trusty NiteRider Lumina 900 and have gotten 8-10 night rides in.
    12 Santa Cruz Heckler
    18 Kona Process 153 AL/DL (27.5)...:thumbsup:

  145. #145
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    here how top tech helmet lights looks like.
    ~100 grams.
    up to 2000 real lumens.

    free decision on 3 different state of the art LED techs.

    for throw new Osrams.
    for great power and great beam profile state of the art Samsung LED.
    for users what prefer High CRI on the trail Nichia option.

    H50 HEADLIGHT|AceBeam¬ģ-Official Site

  146. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by lostplaces View Post
    here how top tech helmet lights looks like.
    ~100 grams.
    up to 2000 real lumens.

    free decision on 3 different state of the art LED techs.

    for throw new Osrams.
    for great power and great beam profile state of the art Samsung LED.
    for users what prefer High CRI on the trail Nichia option.

    H50 HEADLIGHT|AceBeam¬-Official Site
    Lol no this is what a spam comment looks like... looks like every other fake stats Chinese knock off but quadruple the price because they made a website


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  147. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by richard1hammond View Post
    Lol no this is what a spam comment looks like... looks like every other fake stats Chinese knock off but quadruple the price because they made a website


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Nope. I will stand up and say an AceBeam product is certainly not at all like any other Chinese knock-off brand and this light is in fact offering some very good LED options. However, I do not agree with lostplaces and his seemingly "spamming" posts and constantly bad talking Outbound's products.

    -Garry
    "My Bike Lights" Thread on BLF teardowns, measurements, and beamshots. Moving my photos, PM or post up if you can't see them.

  148. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by garrybunk View Post
    Nope. I will stand up and say an AceBeam product is certainly not at all like any other Chinese knock-off brand and this light is in fact offering some very good LED options. However, I do not agree with lostplaces and his seemingly "spamming" posts and constantly bad talking Outbound's products.

    -Garry
    Whatís the topic of this tread buddy? Itís not a generic light discussion so if itís not outbound lighting itís off topic aka spamming! Honestly didnít look into is as itís not related to the topic of the tread. Thereís many other treads for other brands of lights


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  149. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by richard1hammond View Post
    Whatís the topic of this tread buddy? Itís not a generic light discussion so if itís not outbound lighting itís off topic aka spamming! Honestly didnít look into is as itís not related to the topic of the tread. Thereís many other treads for other brands of lights


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Absolutely correct! That's the main reason I disagree with lostplaces posting his content in places it doesn't belong. (I don't mind him posting this stuff in the "recommendation" threads or the "Cheap Chinese Lights" threads and do think he sometimes shares decent information.) This type of posting by him certainly makes him look like a spammer (which I really don't believe he is). He is going to get himself banned if he doesn't knock it off.

    -Garry
    "My Bike Lights" Thread on BLF teardowns, measurements, and beamshots. Moving my photos, PM or post up if you can't see them.

  150. #150
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    @Outbound, I see you're claiming a 2 hour runtime for this light but I couldn't help but notice you've done your testing Sedona, AZ.

    As someone who lives in Michigan I'd be curious to hear if you've done any real world cold weather (sub 30 degrees F) testing on battery life?

    Thanks.

  151. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by lostplaces View Post
    free decision on 3 different state of the art LED techs.
    But absolutely zero tech in the optics.

  152. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by driver bob View Post
    It's time to step in here and try and calm this thread down.

    @Lostplaces : Your contributions to other lighting threads (from what I have read) are quite constructive but in this thread it's derailing a startup who is trying to put a product to market.
    I have yet to see anything constructive from one of his posts. 78 posts on a MOUNTAIN BIKING forum, ALL in the lighting forum and EVERY ONE shilling for his lights or bad-mouthing any light that isn't one of these lights.

    Every time I look at a light post I have to wade through posts filled with his crap to find something meaningful.
    AreBee

  153. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stahr_Nut View Post
    @Outbound, I see you're claiming a 2 hour runtime for this light but I couldn't help but notice you've done your testing Sedona, AZ.

    As someone who lives in Michigan I'd be curious to hear if you've done any real world cold weather (sub 30 degrees F) testing on battery life?

    Thanks.
    Volunteering as a guinea pig for cold weather testing in New England! 36 degrees on my night ride last night!
    AreBee

  154. #154
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    A little bummed that this is dragging out and there hasn't been an update. I spent $150 last night on two night riders for my son and I since not sure when the Hangover is going to be shipped
    2020 Turbo Levo Comp
    2019 Strive CF 8
    2018 Farley EX 8

  155. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arebee View Post
    I have yet to see anything constructive from one of his posts. 78 posts on a MOUNTAIN BIKING forum, ALL in the lighting forum and EVERY ONE shilling for his lights or bad-mouthing any light that isn't one of these lights.

    Every time I look at a light post I have to wade through posts filled with his crap to find something meaningful.
    This guy is only here for his own ego and agenda. I get wanting to know more about a light that is curious, but disagree with his tones and methods 110%. His approach to this screams to me, "tell me how you are doing this in implicit detail so that I can cheaply copy and undercut you via whatever non-us manufacturing methods I can find."

    So following this thread now, in a much mellower method... Thank you MTBR for having this lovely feature in the forums.


  156. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by roughster View Post
    A little bummed that this is dragging out and there hasn't been an update. I spent $150 last night on two night riders for my son and I since not sure when the Hangover is going to be shipped
    Yeah, the delays are a bummer but not unexpected, I'd definitely be more bummed if I didn't have plenty of other lights. To his credit Matt is much more open about the process than most vendors and his Kickstarter, while late, was significantly less late than any other similar one I am aware of and much better communicated throughout.

    For the current Hangover project, he sent out a detailed email update on October 15th: "...The result of this is probably obvious at this point, we are still delayed and wonít meet the goal that we set out last month of shipping by now. Realistically we are looking at another 3-4 weeks as production has now been green-lit and all we can do is play the waiting game with our suppliers..."

    and posted this a couple of days ago on IG: "Production is in full swing with #hangover! Hope to receive all our parts within two weeks or so."

    So hopefully it won't be too much longer.

  157. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stahr_Nut View Post
    @Outbound, I see you're claiming a 2 hour runtime for this light but I couldn't help but notice you've done your testing Sedona, AZ.

    As someone who lives in Michigan I'd be curious to hear if you've done any real world cold weather (sub 30 degrees F) testing on battery life?

    Thanks.
    runtime testing was most probably done at standard conditions (20 įC/ 68 įF). Below freezing point i would substract up to 30% of runtime, just to be on the safe side. It is still a LiIon cell, and has the same issues with cold temperature that batteries in electric vehicles have as well...

  158. #158
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    Hey guys, sorry for not checking in here as often as I used to. It's been a wild few weeks.

    We are indeed finally getting to the light at the end of the tunnel regarding Hangover. The delays sucked, a lot, but were nessecary to have a quality product. I could have easily tried to ship a month ago to get the enormous revenue that happens right now, but it would have been a bad move with a rushed product. We probably lost out on easily $30-40k of revenue by delaying things but I'm focused on the long term.

    One exciting thing was moving out of the spare bedroom I've been operating the company out of and into a new commercial lease space. It's taken a while to get all setup but now getting humming along. It doesn't look like much now, but imagine all this stuff crammed into a 200 sqft bedroom and closet.

    Outbound Lighting Hangover --- Discussion ----img_4558.jpg

    Outbound Lighting Hangover --- Discussion ----img_4587.jpg

    This is already allowing me to better plan inventory, order more to try and prevent stockouts, and eventually can be more confident hiring part time help.

    Speaking of, if anyone is in the Chicago area and wants to make some money on the side by coming in for a few hours or a day or two a week to help build lights, get in touch with me. Willing to pay well for someone who's reliable and can work fast. Unfortunately no full-time positions yet.

    As for hangover, hopefully all our hard parts will arrive in the next week or so and can start the full production. The Pinkbike review on the Trail Edition caused my inventory to explode on the Trail/Road side, so it's going to be a really busy couple of weeks trying to keep up.

    Going to be working on pre-stuffing 1500 boxes so that when all the parts arrive, we drop the PCB and battery in, align the optic, screw it together, toss it in the box, and then right into the padded mailer and out the door. Now around 1100 of these that we need to make.

    Really appriciate everyone's patience, it's been a wild ride so far with lots of ups and downs (more ups lately!) working to get this business rolling and new products rolling out. Hopefully any new products from here on out will not need a big pre-order this early, if at all.
    OutboundLighting.com
    Professionally Engineered LED Bike Lights
    Assembled in Chicago, IL


  159. #159
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    awesome, can't wait for my hangover to ship!
    2020 yeti sb165 t2

  160. #160
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    Since you're anyway out of stock of PCBs and LED boards for the Focal Series again (congrats to that review and your business development!), there is a good chance you can focus on producing those 1100 hangovers first

  161. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by abomofo View Post
    This guy is only here for his own ego and agenda.

    i am only here coz i have some technical questions to hangover and never get serious answers on them.

    simple look on the first post here.
    you make here the agenda what is alowed to ask?

    he call by himself this product the lightest/smallest helmet light.
    the truth is there are alot of 100g lights on the market, what are smaller and better performing.
    i own by myself some of them.

    thats why i was wondering why hew call this bulky looking thing the lightest and smallest.

    i asked him how he comes on the idea to get from 6 very bad performing LED more then the double of runtime out that i get from exact the same LED that i have measured.


    to clear that question i asked him to show a runtimegraph what is no big deal.
    to this day nothing comes, that says more than alot.
    mr outbound by himself gives the proof that he never measure whatever.

    the truth about the possible output from a 6x of this LEDs with a 3000mah battery is ~450 lumen for 2 Hours."the half promise"

    the truth we will see in a runtimegraph, but not from outbound.

    and the last question was also bound to the first post.
    he declar all other companys to be nerds coz they use save Battery charge currents on build in batterys, what result in ~2,5 Hours of charge time or more for an Li-Ion round batterys.
    thats why fast switsch empty to full battery is an importend part of pro helmet lights.

    Only outbound can pump into a Li-Ion battery up to 4 Amps and charge it in 1 Hour.
    the truth is what i write before about that, and that is possible that it ends in a thermal runaway.

    To heavy overcurrent in charge round Li-ion batterys what ends in fast destruction use for pro marketing i never have seen befor, and call that a good feature.
    t
    he other confusing part from that is that mr outbound write in post 17 that he will charge a 3350mah? battery with 3A current with CC/CV this will end in 1 hour and 20 minutes charge time.
    or the light have build in a buck converter charge circuit?

    you see no clear tech infos on any way.

    and 5 bil people and all companys in the world are in wrong to use full 6061 up to 7075 Aluminium bodys as the main cooling solution for lights about there best ratio in weight, strengh and thermal resistance,.

    noooo, magnesium is the big ruler in all therms but that only knows Outbound.
    and thats why only the lower part ist this metal, the upper part is plastic?......

    That all is more then cunfusing and if you think its not right to talk about all of that.

  162. #162
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    Regarding lostplaces' questions I did some calculations - just based on datasheets from Cree and Outbound.

    850lm out of 6 led = 140lm/led
    Cree XQ-E high: about 130lm/W (depending on version and binning... 130 is more on the positive side)
    => about 6.5W needed @2.9V
    => about 2.25A

    LG Battery (Outbound Specs): 3300mAh
    Drawing around 2A current usually batteries can deliver 90% of their nominal capacity before they reach 3.0V
    So let's assume 3000mAh
    ų2.25A
    =1h20min runtime.

    This makes me curious,too: how does this light gain 2h runtime @850lm?

    Just found the answer above: decreasing output to 75% = 640lm.
    Even if the light would start on 640lm, a 2h runtime can't be calculated:
    as above: 640 lm => 1.8A
    3000mAhų1.8A= 1h40min.

    So this is of course just a calculation and I'm pretty sure that you will deliver what you promise, but a runtime chart would be very convincing.

  163. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slipway View Post
    Regarding lostplaces' questions I did some calculations - just based on datasheets from Cree and Outbound.

    850lm out of 6 led = 140lm/led
    Cree XQ-E high: about 130lm/W (depending on version and binning... this is a more on the positive side)
    => about 6.5W needed @2.9V
    => about 2.25A

    LG Battery (Outbound Specs): 3300mAh
    Drawing around 2A current usually batteries can deliver 90% of their nominal capacity before they reach 3.0V
    So let's assume 3000mAh
    ų2.25A
    =1h20min runtime.

    This makes me curious,too: how does this light gain 2h runtime @850lm?

    Just found the answer above: decreading output to 75% = 640lm.
    Even if the light would start with only 640lm the calculation will not reach 2 hours runtime:
    as above: 640 lm => 1.8A
    3000mAhų1.8A= 1h40min.

    So this is of course just a calculation and I'm pretty sure that you will deliver what you promise, but a runtime chart would be very convincing.
    I'm not an electronics guy so I can't comment on your calcs but I have been night riding for almost 20 years now and have owned over a dozen different lighting systems from all kinds of companies big and small. The unfortunate reality is not a single one of those systems has ever delivered on their advertised run time. For what ever reason having to deal with advertised run times vs actual run times is a game we MTBers have learned we need to play.

  164. #164
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    Old arguments again

    Just saw on the homepage, the new light has a CE marking on the housing Good for european customers in case of picky customs officers


    Here we go again, lostplaces remains unaffected by any arguments. It seems he wants the technical questions only answered, if those answers support his beliefs. Is this not the case, his questions are not answered. Except for the runtime graph all his "questions" were answered and these calculation and explanations were never countered by him with any reasonable and substantial arguments...

    tl;dr: check the old posts #18, #83,#92,#95,#98,#100,#140 for answers. MrMole most probably will provide a runtime graph once has the light in his hands


    • on his "problems" with the charging time and safety and his fast charging "experiments", see the reply in post #140
    • that argument regarding the weight is ridiculous, Outbound had stated that he compares to specifically designed bike helmet light, not to (multi-porpose) flashlights as lostplaces does.
    • Regarding lumen output: outbound clearly stated in post #92 he doesn't care about lumen level, he focuses on proper light distribution (which is measured in lux). And lux meters are fairly cheap (compared to a integrating sphere to measure lumens) and the measurements are quickly done with a quickly selfmade measurement screen, where a few points are defined.
      lostplaces interprets every single datasheet of LEDs worse than they are, except for the XHP leds, for those he adds another 50% on top on the data sheet value. His reasoning for that (discussing xml-2 and xhp leds, both from cree, in a german forum): Cree as a manufacturer has no clue what to put in a datasheet....
    • Quote Originally Posted by Slipway View Post
      Regarding lostplaces' questions I did some calculations - just based on datasheets from Cree and Outbound.
      [...] This makes me curious,too: how does this light gain 2h runtime @850lm?
      i made a more detailed calculation and one can obtain 850 lm @ 6 W (chiplumens, not out the front). One needs to consider the lower operating (compared to binning) temperature. Admittedly, that a calculation is a bit on the positive edge, but not unrealistic. see post#95, #98, #100
    • runtime: see outbounds post #79, keep in mind that he talks about chiplumens, not out-the front lumens. In post #18 (last paragraph) he gives a runtime definition: light delivers at least 75% of the original output during that time.
    • regarding "bad" properties of magnesium, see outbound's answer in post #83, and check post #95.
      LEDs in the Hangover produce a thermal load of ~4 W. For that amount it is plenty sufficient to have only the one half of the housing made from magnesium alloy: A quick back-on-the-envelope calculation (Edit: finally one without stupid mistakes) gives a thermal conductivity of at least 41 - 62 W/K (considering the dimensions of the Mg alloy housing part). So the limiting factor is the heat transfer to the air (which depends on air flow, turbulences and exposed surface area, but not on the properties of Mg), as stated by Outbound. lostplaces is still so lost in the field of thermal conductivity and heat transfer, that he still thinks the idea of a bike lamp body/housing is to store heat (in this case alumina or copper might be more useful...). No argument or calculation can convince him, since most (handheld) flashlights are made of copper or alumina this must be the only truth. The fact that the boundary conditions for heat transfer from a metal body to the air are in case of a bike light quite different is beyond his knowledge and understanding.
    Last edited by biking_tg; 11-10-2019 at 11:58 PM. Reason: mistake in calculation

  165. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slipway View Post
    LG Battery (Outbound Specs): 3300mAh
    Drawing around 2A current usually batteries can deliver 90% of their nominal capacity before they reach 3.0V
    So let's assume 3000mAh
    ų2.25A
    =1h20min runtime.

    This makes me curious,too: how does this light gain 2h runtime @850lm?
    The CREE's current draw is rated at ~3v forward voltage; the 18650's capacity is rated at over 3.5v.

    Does anybody here actually know watt they're talking about?

  166. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by VegasSingleSpeed View Post
    The CREE's current draw is rated at ~3v forward voltage; the 18650's capacity is rated at over 3.5v.

    Does anybody here actually know watt they're talking about?
    What is unclear? Maybe I can help.

  167. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slipway View Post
    What is unclear? Maybe I can help.
    Watts. This has been extensively discussed already in this thread. So, no...you're not helping the discussion.

  168. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by VegasSingleSpeed View Post
    ...Does anybody here actually know watt they're talking about?...
    Good one.
    What, me worry?

  169. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by VegasSingleSpeed View Post
    Watts. This has been extensively discussed already in this thread. So, no...you're not helping the discussion.
    Sorry that you find this unhelpful but it's my question in this discussion thread - and as far as I've read, it's unanswered.

  170. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by biking_tg View Post
    Just saw on the homepage, the new light has a CE marking on the housing Good for european customers in case of picky customs officers ...
    . [/SIZE] [/LIST]
    I Missed your calculation - would have saved some writing. And in reality it doesn't matter if 6W or 6.5W are needed. But nevertheless for me the runtime topic is still unanswered,would be great to have a statement from outbound.

  171. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by lostplaces View Post
    i am only here coz i have some technical questions to hangover......
    It actually seems you are here to try and persuade everyone that a silly cheap flashlight is the ultimate light system for Mt bike use. We all understand by now that those satisfy your needs. What satisfies you is not going to satisfy everyone.

    Look back at post #134 and do as the moderator requested. As he said, if Outbound has messed up this light design as you say, it will crash and burn on its own.
    GoPro adapters for bike lights http://www.pacifier.com/~kevinb/index.html

  172. #172
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    So many experts here (not me). Maybe time better spent experiencing the light before posting opinions. I'm eagerly waiting in anticipation.

    Martin.

  173. #173
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    If you Preordered check your email. Matt sent out an update for shipping and he is estimating we should have them before turkey day. Fingers crossed

  174. #174
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    I had pretty much forced myself to not repeatedly check for status, but I searched my overflowing inbox and did find the same status email. Sweet!

    I'm really looking forward to no wires on the bars and helmet.
    baker

  175. #175
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    I have no mail in my inbox. Hope I get the next batch. First come, first serve. ab

  176. #176
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    Yes! I got the email a couple of days ago. #wringing hands

  177. #177
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    Anybody get their lights yet?
    Come stay and play at da Kingdom Trails! - http://www.homeaway.com/vacation-rental/p3486813

  178. #178
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    Check your email folks, the lights will be shipping out next week.

  179. #179
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    Just got the email too! Excited to get out on the trails with my Outbound Trail and Headlight combo!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  180. #180
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    Yup, me too. Can't wait to get on the trails with it.

  181. #181
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    Happy to see the email!!! Rain and colder temps. in the forecast so good chance I wouldn't have gotten to use the light for a few days anyway. Excitement about the 100 lux @ 10m far overshadows having to wait a little longer for the light. That's almost as good a reading as the OB road, more than I expected, and very good for a sub 1000 lumen self-contained light.
    Mole

  182. #182
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    How would the Road Edition perform on the trail and how would the Trail Edition perform on the road? You know...if I was only going to purchase one for the bars. I'm going to order the Hangover to supplement. Most of my riding is on trails but I am looking to start doing some more road/gravel riding.

  183. #183
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    Either would perform reasonably well. If you're going to ride off-road, I prefer not having the cut-off of the Road lamp limit the vertical illumination (especially on trails with lots of elevation change). I use the Road lamp for commuting, and on one local mixed-surface route because half of the route is busy streets/highways and the other half is flat FSR. I run the Trail for all other mixed-surface events/rides.

  184. #184
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    Agree with Vegas--if the trails you ride have ups & downs, you will want the vertical range of the Trail if running it on the bar.

  185. #185
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    Has anyone received a shipping notice yet?

  186. #186
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    No, but I took "Friday" to mean they would be shipped *this* Friday, not the one during a major holiday.

  187. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by wschruba View Post
    No, but I took "Friday" to mean they would be shipped *this* Friday, not the one during a major holiday.
    My read of it was that the parts were in customs, should arrive by last Friday, and the builds would be shipping out this week as they were done.

  188. #188
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    On his instagram account outbound posted that all parts have arrived and he startet assembling them this morning. So there should pop up some shipping notes by tonight or tomorrow...

  189. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by biking_tg View Post
    On his instagram account outbound posted that all parts have arrived and he startet assembling them this morning. So there should pop up some shipping notes by tonight or tomorrow...

  190. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris49582 View Post
    Has anyone received a shipping notice yet?
    YES! About 30 minutes ago!

  191. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velodonata View Post
    YES! About 30 minutes ago!
    Damnit man!! Whereís mine?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  192. #192
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    I got a notice this afternoon. Was hoping to have it for a ride tomorrow night.

  193. #193
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    Outbound Lighting Hangover --- Discussion ----screenshot_2019-12-07-outbound-lighting.jpg

    Mole

  194. #194
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    I just placed and order for one for me and one for my wife.

  195. #195
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    I ordered mine a couple months ago towards the end of the pre-order. Still no shipping notification.

  196. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by sptimmy43 View Post
    I ordered mine a couple months ago towards the end of the pre-order. Still no shipping notification.
    I know of at least one other person who didn't order right away and still hasn't received a shipping notification yet so your not alone. Order date was noted on my shipping notification so quite possible they are shipping first come first serve. I ordered my lights in May and USPS still says I should get my lights by the end of today (Ya!).
    Mole

  197. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by sptimmy43 View Post
    I ordered mine a couple months ago towards the end of the pre-order. Still no shipping notification.
    Same. But I got the status update emails, so I assume theyíre fulfilling orders sequentially.

  198. #198
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    I ordered mine at the end of September and haven't received a notice yet.

  199. #199
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    Outbound Lighting Hangover --- Discussion ----001.jpg Outbound Lighting Hangover --- Discussion ----002.jpg

    They came early!!! Figured a picture was called for. Units look pretty nice. 100 grams on my non-digital food scale. Both lights need charging so that's all I've got for now.
    Mole

  200. #200
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    Mine has arrived (I ordered it back in May)! Fit and finish looks great; can't wait to get it out in the dark to evaluate the beam-pattern. I'm sure somebody is gonna throw a fit about the *ahem* 1.9-hr run-time on high (stated on the product info card...can't fault them for their ambition); but, I bought this lamp 1) for the 9-hr run-time on low, and 2) to use with my dynamo hub in pass-thru, so my lighting needs are at the other end of the spectrum as compared to other OL customers.

    If the shake-down with the dynamo goes well this week (i.e. I can generate enough current through my dynamo+charging circuit), my Hangover should see 24-30+ hours of burn-time as my primary light this weekend. I'll report back with my ride-impressions.

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