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  1. #801
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vancbiker View Post
    Low mounting must not be a concern for most folks though. I sell way, way more standard GoPro adapters than the LoPro version. I also did the LoPro adapter for Ituo lights in a flip/flop style so it could be low or extra low. Most pics I've seen of folks using them do not have them in the extra low position.
    Does this look better? Do you have the lopro option for all lights?

    Outbound Lighting Focal Series  ---- Discussion -----006.jpg

  2. #802
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRMOLE View Post
    Does this look better? Do you have the lopro option for all lights?

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    Yep. Was gonna ask you if the extra low position worked with that Ituo mount.

    The LoPro adapter is available for....

    all the Ituo XP series
    Gemini Duo
    Yinding
    Solarstorm X2 and X3

    There has not been enough demand for me to design and build LoPro versions for any other lights. I have sold a small number of undrilled LoPro adapters so the buyers could modify as needed to fit their particular light.

    This kind of circles back to Outbound's thread and why I posted earlier that while some users would appreciate a lower profile mounting, I don't see it being anywhere near a majority. I think the mounting design Outbound posted earlier for his new self-contained light will satisfy most potential buyers.
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  3. #803
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    @ Outbound : I'm still waiting for that mountain bike light of yours to offer a more NW beam tint. That said gotta have a remote, wired or otherwise as well. If the Raveman lights were offered in NW I might not have posted this comment but than again I tend to favor bar lamps with separate battery packs over self contained lamps when I MTB.

  4. #804
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    Anyone interested in an OB Trail Edition with a bit of scuffing on the top from the bike being flipped over? Probably 30h of use. I ride desert and a lot of its beam is being lost, so I got the road edition on the bars and a traditional spot beam on the helmet to get the throw I need for trail riding. Figure someone who rides in dense canopy will enjoy riding terrain in which things are possibly brighter than it is during the day, with this OB Trail Ed.

    I also got a L&M Taz 2000 still fresh in package, which I chose the OB Road over (for run time). Doubt anyone would want it though, cause it's 290 MSRP. More of a pocketable commuter light.

  5. #805
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vancbiker View Post
    I'm with these comments. Early in my night riding days, I caught a high mounted light on a tree branch. No fun. I like and use very low mounting for my helmet lights.

    Low mounting must not be a concern for most folks though. I sell way, way more standard GoPro adapters than the LoPro version. I also did the LoPro adapter for Ituo lights in a flip/flop style so it could be low or extra low. Most pics I've seen of folks using them do not have them in the extra low position.

    Having a low option on this new Outbound light would appeal to some users, but I'd guess not enough to warrant the extra work to provide it. Low mounting makes a light not work with some helmets that have integral GoPro mounts. They typically are at the very top of the helmet and won't allow some lights with low mounting to be aimed down far enough.

    There may be some issue with tool design for casting the housing that makes a low mounting less manufacturable. On my GoPro adapters there is extra machining with a smallish tool that must be done to make it work. That adds time which is why they cost more despite using a smaller piece of raw material.

    Outbound has some lofty specification and performance goals for this new light. Even with it's somewhat high profile (not as high as many other helmet lights though) if it hits most of the performance and specification goals, it will be a very nice light.
    You almost hit the nail on the head. It's a challenge for manufacturing with the way the case is developed, plus for those that have mounts right on the top of the helmet it is tougher to aim. However I will see what we can do to get it a little lower profile. It's an enormous difference over the primary target competitor, the NR Lumina and L&M Urban. This is why I like leaking some info and get some feedback quick before we commit to tooling.

    I've got some ideas now on how to keep the form factor yet get that lower profile. This light also has the goal of being extremely high quality feeling and durable. Overmolded features to make it IP67 rated, as well as feeling like a GoPro Hero 7 in terms of quality, just not as heavy.

  6. #806
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do View Post
    @ Outbound : I'm still waiting for that mountain bike light of yours to offer a more NW beam tint. That said gotta have a remote, wired or otherwise as well. If the Raveman lights were offered in NW I might not have posted this comment but than again I tend to favor bar lamps with separate battery packs over self contained lamps when I MTB.
    Unfortunately won't be able to offer a whiter light anytime soon. A remote is something that we are also looking into. Something a little different from what others are doing too, but that's still early on.

  7. #807
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    Unfortunately won't be able to offer a whiter light anytime soon. A remote is something that we are also looking into. Something a little different from what others are doing too, but that's still early on.
    Uh...that wasn't what I was asking about. NW or Neutral White is less white than what you are using. Not sure if the LED array you use comes in any other tint but if it did there is a market for NW MTB lights. Specifically, something in the 4500K range would be awesome. Got to have remotes.

  8. #808
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    Outbound Lighting Focal Series  ---- Discussion -----0124191852.jpg
    - Road edition's cutoff

    Outbound Lighting Focal Series  ---- Discussion -----chrome_tlscsu9xwm.jpg
    - I'm the one fooling around in the back

    Outbound Lighting Focal Series  ---- Discussion -----190404nightride.jpg
    - my personal light carpet (XP3 is giving me that little circle beyond the OB Road Ed)

    Itou's tint is a bit yellower's than OB's, but seems to mix well for my needs. Looks like OB's personal promise that they gave me in their chat, that it would be the last light I buy, fell through. Feeling better about this newer setup, compared to the DH package.

    Honestly, the XP3 would probably be close to enough by itself, but I'm comparing ~1200 lumen lights to a 2300 lumen one:

    Outbound Lighting Focal Series  ---- Discussion -----190404nightride2.jpg

  9. #809
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do View Post
    Uh...that wasn't what I was asking about. NW or Neutral White is less white than what you are using. Not sure if the LED array you use comes in any other tint but if it did there is a market for NW MTB lights. Specifically, something in the 4500K range would be awesome. Got to have remotes.
    Reason I thought was wanting whiter is that these are warmer than lights from L&M, B&M, and the typical cheaper stuff. For example this is the B&M Ixon at the same distance from the wall as the road edition:

    Outbound Lighting Focal Series  ---- Discussion -----b-m.png
    Attachment 1245998

    The Altilon starts out on the lower end of the 5000k spectrum (closer to cool white), and then when it passes the reflector and through the lens it gets knocked down to the mid 4000's (closer to warm white). But the Altilon chip itself doesn't get any warmer since it's automotive qualified, so won't be able to go any warmer either.

    Changing up chips for the new light, so will have a wider spread of stuff to choose frome, but will still be looking to match the tint of the Trail so that it's seamless with existing lights.

  10. #810
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    Subscribing to this thread for the self-contained light data. Been a big fan of the Exposure Diablo but their QA has been falling behind a bit with the past few lights and the pricing is no longer competitive.
    Come stay and play at da Kingdom Trails! - http://www.homeaway.com/vacation-rental/p3486813

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    Quote Originally Posted by woodyak View Post
    Subscribing to this thread for the self-contained light data. Been a big fan of the Exposure Diablo but their QA has been falling behind a bit with the past few lights and the pricing is no longer competitive.
    I agree on the Exposure lights. The other big dawg is the Lupine lights. They are outstanding as well but sickly expensive.

  12. #812
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodyak View Post
    Subscribing to this thread for the self-contained light data. Been a big fan of the Exposure Diablo but their QA has been falling behind a bit with the past few lights and the pricing is no longer competitive.
    It sounds like OL is going in the right direction but I'll put in some wishlist items:
    - Keep it simple. No tap crap, no auto-dimming, no crazy programmable crap. No crazy button sequence to make it turn on or off.
    - Optimized for 2+ hour burn time.
    - 2 settings. High and Low w/o low being as low as mechanically possible.
    - Some sort of battery meter
    - Ability to plug in an external battery as a just in case.
    Come stay and play at da Kingdom Trails! - http://www.homeaway.com/vacation-rental/p3486813

  13. #813
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    Outbound Lighting Focal Series ---- Discussion ----

    Quote Originally Posted by woodyak View Post
    It sounds like OL is going in the right direction but I'll put in some wishlist items:
    - Keep it simple. No tap crap, no auto-dimming, no crazy programmable crap. No crazy button sequence to make it turn on or off.
    - Optimized for 2+ hour burn time.
    - 2 settings. High and Low w/o low being as low as mechanically possible.
    - Some sort of battery meter
    - Ability to plug in an external battery as a just in case.
    My wish list is even simpler
    I want good high and low beam like a car with a simple switch or remote next to my hand grips to accomplish this. Why do I have to cycle through 97 modes to get to $&@?! Modes that are actually useful. High low just like a car it isnít hard.

    Edit: this isnít a complaint with your light (I donít own one yet) itís just with every light I have tried.
    Last edited by jeremy_burke; 04-09-2019 at 12:43 AM.

  14. #814
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post

    The Altilon starts out on the lower end of the 5000k spectrum (closer to cool white), and then when it passes the reflector and through the lens it gets knocked down to the mid 4000's (closer to warm white). But the Altilon chip itself doesn't get any warmer since it's automotive qualified, so won't be able to go any warmer either.

    Changing up chips for the new light, so will have a wider spread of stuff to choose frome, but will still be looking to match the tint of the Trail so that it's seamless with existing lights.
    For me the smooth/even beam coverage you get with the OB lights improves overall visibility as does using a warmer tint but in a different way. I do really like NW tint for solo off-road riding but for riding in groups and anything paved I think the tint of your current lights is a better compromise. That said think the new light should as close as possible match the emitter tint of your other lights. Thanks for the updates. New light design looking good so far!
    Mole

  15. #815
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    Alright took your advice and modified the mount location a bit. Doesn't look too bad!

    Outbound Lighting Focal Series  ---- Discussion -----57104048_592573751242176_7663438746716471296_n.png

    The prototypes that will be used for functional testing will be of the older design. They have been machined from magnesium to test for thermal loads to best simulate the actual die cast material. Those should be arriving in a few days.

    Might notice another feature, the hood. This was requested from some people based on some feedback of the previous lights. Not really necessary for helmet mounting, but if people mount it on their handlebars, it will be nice to keep the light out of their eyes when climbing.

  16. #816
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy_burke View Post
    My wish list is even simpler
    I want good high and low beam like a car with a simple switch or remote next to my hand grips to accomplish this. Why do I have to cycle through 97 modes to get to $&@?! Modes that are actually useful. High low just like a car it isnít hard.

    Edit: this isnít a complaint with your light (I donít own one yet) itís just with every light I have tried.
    I agree with this. I pretty much want full output or low output. I generally don't use the mid-brightness modes.

    I have had mixed opinions on a remote. This past fall/winter was my first real night riding season and now I get it. I think a wireless remote that can control the bar light and helmet light simultaneously would be pretty useful.

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    Has it been a week and a half yet? I wanna see that light.


  18. #818
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    Fo a helmet light, I like 3 levels. Low and High for riding, and an extra low that requires some extra action to enable, in other words, not part of the normal switching from low to high and back to low. The extra low level is useful for light to fix a mechanical or flat or read the map. IME, a low level that is good for riding is too bright for fixing or map reading.
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  19. #819
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy_burke View Post
    My wish list is even simpler
    I want good high and low beam like a car with a simple switch or remote next to my hand grips to accomplish this. Why do I have to cycle through 97 modes to get to $&@?! Modes that are actually useful. High low just like a car it isnít hard.

    Edit: this isnít a complaint with your light (I donít own one yet) itís just with every light I have tried.
    Even better ( for a road version ) would be just two modes as you suggest but that the two modes be user programmable so you have the exact output you want for both modes. The advantage of this is that ( for longer rides ) you can choose to use outputs that can extend run time.

  20. #820
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do View Post
    Even better ( for a road version ) would be just two modes as you suggest but that the two modes be user programmable so you have the exact output you want for both modes. The advantage of this is that ( for longer rides ) you can choose to use outputs that can extend run time.
    I like this idea. Although to be honest I really only need one programmable and one high beam (so bright it melts the road). Couple that with a good easy to operate helmet light for when I hit the gravel/double track, which I do as mush as possible. Crunchy roads are the best roads.

  21. #821
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy_burke View Post
    I like this idea. Although to be honest I really only need one programmable and one high beam (so bright it melts the road). Couple that with a good easy to operate helmet light for when I hit the gravel/double track, which I do as mush as possible. Crunchy roads are the best roads.
    Your not going to get that (so bright it melts the road) from any of the current OB lights and doubtful from the new (lower powered) self-contained light they're currently working on. Beam pattern and best visibility from the light they produce is more what these light are about. Cat-man-do proposed UI works for me too.
    Mole

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    Quote Originally Posted by MRMOLE View Post
    Your not going to get that (so bright it melts the road) from any of the current OB lights and doubtful from the new (lower powered) self-contained light they're currently working on. Beam pattern and best visibility from the light they produce is more what these light are about. Cat-man-do proposed UI works for me too.
    Mole
    I know, please donít ever take me too seriously. Iím prone to hyperbole.

  23. #823
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    Alrighty guys, got all our prototype lenses, machined magneisum lower, and overmolded printed uppers in today. I'm not terribly thrilled with the overmold print quality, but I knew it wasn't going to be production spec. However very happy with the prototype optics and it's going to be great to be able to really test the optics quick (10 day turnaround) and make any tweaks before we commit to tooling.

    Going to give one more teaser of the optic before I start a new thread for the new light once we have some pictures of the light lit up and powered on next week!

    The optic on the top is printed in "clear" on my 3d printer, can tell what a different a proper prototype can make.

    Outbound Lighting Focal Series  ---- Discussion -----56666860_870898783302073_6724943518722162688_n.jpg

    Outbound Lighting Focal Series  ---- Discussion -----56635077_1244589652362499_2524407388031680512_n.jpg

  24. #824
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    So Iím guessing youíre using a different led than the bar lights.

  25. #825
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    Quote Originally Posted by mestapho View Post
    So Iím guessing youíre using a different led than the bar lights.
    Yep, the Trail and Road Edition use an Altilon 1x5 chip which is very lumen dense, in this light we are going with 6 individual LED's that will either be Lumiled FX Plus chips or CREE XQ-E High Intensity. I'll explain why in more detail in the new thread.

  26. #826
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    I like the "joined" optics. I did a "joined" reflector light several years ago with 20mm reflectors and Cree XPG emitters. It made a really nice beam and was my goto helmet light for ~3 years.

    Outbound Lighting Focal Series  ---- Discussion -----new-microlight-16.jpg

    Is the texturing (presumably for beam smoothing) on your optic on the face side? I have found that texture on the face can collect mud that is hard to clean out mid-ride. Prefer a smooth face.
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  27. #827
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vancbiker View Post
    I like the "joined" optics. I did a "joined" reflector light several years ago with 20mm reflectors and Cree XPG emitters. It made a really nice beam and was my goto helmet light for ~3 years.

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    Is the texturing (presumably for beam smoothing) on your optic on the face side? I have found that texture on the face can collect mud that is hard to clean out mid-ride. Prefer a smooth face.
    Yep, joined in this particular case was mostly to improve the asthetic and get it a bit more compact. The actual TIR's are shaped slightly different on each individual one to shape the beam pattern so that it has the stronger hotspot, soft falloff to the side, and the light carpet that we are known for.

    The facets on the front are indeed for further beam shaping both in a horizontal and a vertical fashion. They are quite small and short, but radiiused so that getting mud off is no problem, that was something I had factored into the design. Silicone optics again since these are similar to the Focal lights where the lens forms the seal.

  28. #828
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    Man if this has the throw and spot of my BT-20 with spots youíll be taking my money again.

  29. #829
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    .....The actual TIR's are shaped slightly different on each individual one to shape the beam pattern so that it has the stronger hotspot, soft falloff to the side, and the light carpet that we are known for.
    That is awesome. So cool that you have design tools and experience that allows you do this!

    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    The facets on the front are indeed for further beam shaping both in a horizontal and a vertical fashion. They are quite small and short, but radiiused so that getting mud off is no problem, that was something I had factored into the design. Silicone optics again since these are similar to the Focal lights where the lens forms the seal.
    Again, a really nice touch. The optic I had with texture on the front basically had numerous "bumps" that met the front surface at a sharp vertex. After wiping with a glove, a little ring of mud would sit in that vertex much to the detriment of the beam throw and output.
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  30. #830
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    Okay, 2nd major night ride for new setup:

    Helmet: Itou Wiz XP3
    Bar: OB Road Ed

    Compared to old setup

    Helmet: OB Road Ed
    Bar: OB Trail Ed

    Running with that thought that I believed the Itou was good enough for desert conditions to be the only light I need, I relied on it a bit more tonight. I discovered its primary setback: when it runs out of juice, it just suddenly cuts out. OB has legendary run time in comparison. I do a 5 PM to 10 PM ride every Thursday, so I really need that run time. With battery conservation habits, such as turning it off at stops, low on climbs, and only high on fast descents, it cut out on me about 15 minutes before the end of my ride today.

    Outbound Lighting Focal Series  ---- Discussion -----gopr1584a.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    Alrighty guys, got all our prototype lenses, machined magneisum lower, and overmolded printed uppers in today. I'm not terribly thrilled with the overmold print quality, but I knew it wasn't going to be production spec. However very happy with the prototype optics and it's going to be great to be able to really test the optics quick (10 day turnaround) and make any tweaks before we commit to tooling.

    Going to give one more teaser of the optic before I start a new thread for the new light once we have some pictures of the light lit up and powered on next week!

    The optic on the top is printed in "clear" on my 3d printer, can tell what a different a proper prototype can make.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Will we be seeing a prototype in action at the Quail Ridge Rampage this Saturday?

  32. #832
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_stoke View Post
    Will we be seeing a prototype in action at the Quail Ridge Rampage this Saturday?
    Unfortunately no. The initial prototype is heading to AZ for my electrical engineer to play with and get the driver testing started. There will be lots of demos of the Trail Edition however at Quail!

  33. #833
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post
    Okay, 2nd major night ride for new setup:

    Helmet: Itou Wiz XP3
    Bar: OB Road Ed

    Running with that thought that I believed the Itou was good enough for desert conditions to be the only light I need, I relied on it a bit more tonight. I discovered its primary setback: when it runs out of juice, it just suddenly cuts out. OB has legendary run time in comparison. I do a 5 PM to 10 PM ride every Thursday, so I really need that run time. With battery conservation habits, such as turning it off at stops, low on climbs, and only high on fast descents, it cut out on me about 15 minutes before the end of my ride today.
    Ninjichor,

    What size battery pack are you using for the XP3 on your helmet? Somehow Iím imagining youíve got a two cell on the back, in any case I doubt you have it attached in any way to the original 4-cell Ituo pack? Because I found the run time on mine was only 90 minutes of mixed use despite the manufacturers claim of over two hours on High alone. In any case, if you can stand running the cable to your jersey or jacket chest pocket, Kaidomanís 4-cell flat pack might be an acceptable solution for you.

    http://kaidomain.com/bike-lights-and...n-Battery-Pack

    I was amazed when I first slipped mine into my Dockerís flap pocket and didnít feel the weight at all.

    My own personal fantasy right now is a 4-cell self contained light with dual mounts that could fasten to a handlebar stem and whose angle could be adjusted by some kind of locking ratchet mechanism in the rear. Since the Outbound Trail/Road reflector lens is so huge am guessing thereíd be room for four cells ó or maybe even six? ó behind its footprint.

  34. #834
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    @andychrist

    I'm using the original 4-cell Itou pack. I estimate 2.5h* of mixed used. I used to run the OB with an extension to my pack, but I strap the Itou's battery to the back of my helmet (TLD Stage). My neck doesn't mind the extra weight and the helmet doesn't shift its fit around with it there.

    * this is assuming I started using it at 7 PM, it cut out just before 10 PM (finished ride at 10:19 to be exact), and I had it off maybe 30 minutes worth in between.

    I wasn't so stingy with the OB's use, knowing it has that 1-h reserve function programmed in. I just needed more throw and I rarely ever use "high" on the OB (usually just set-and-forget with its "Adaptive" slowly-dimming mode).

  35. #835
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    Quote Originally Posted by andychrist View Post
    My own personal fantasy right now is a 4-cell self contained light with dual mounts that could fasten to a handlebar stem and whose angle could be adjusted by some kind of locking ratchet mechanism in the rear. Since the Outbound Trail/Road reflector lens is so huge am guessing thereíd be room for four cells ó or maybe even six? ó behind its footprint.
    Could be, might be. With the upcoming 21700 cells starting to become more mainstream certainly hope to start incorporating those in the future. But any changes to the Trail or Road edition like that would still easily be a year or more away. Currently all focus is on the smaller self contained light to compete with the Lumina and Urban.

  36. #836
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    Wow that would be great, OB! Because in my decade and a half of night riding, have found connector cables to be the weakest link in any setupó experienced countless problems/failures. Magicshine style waterproof ďpopĒ connectors tend to freeze in the cold and become impossible to separate at the end of a ride ó not to mention they can break electrical contact even during the course of the event while still remaining stuck together, necessitating the user to twist the sockets back and forth until the lampís charge indicator comes back on. Screw connectors IIRC are not so bad in that regard but like the Magicshines their internal wiring can often sever at the junction with the molded sockets or where soldered either to the batteries or even lamp if there is not proper stress relief (two out of three of my KD six-cell packs have died that way and the third hasnít far to go) plus over time the electrical contacts themselves can wear down to nubbins. Have recently received a bike lamp that came with a faulty battery cable fresh out of the box and the replacementís cell pack only had about a third of the run time it was supposed to have. Then again the self contained light ordered from the same company immediately self drained its internal cells and then would not recharge over the built in Micro USB. But at least that was just a problem with the manufacture of the circuit board, and doesnít represent the same kind of common vulnerability as with connector cables... or so I hope.

    Anyway, looking forward to seeing your new model upon completion.

  37. #837
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    With the upcoming 21700 cells starting to become more mainstream certainly hope to start incorporating those in the future. .
    Are 21700's a possible power source for the new self-contained light?

    Currently all focus is on the smaller self contained light to compete with the Lumina and Urban
    I don't see much of a problem with you making a better light than your Lumina/Urban target competition but rather overcoming their brand name recognition as your major hurdle. Even tougher if either of those lights do a 21700 upgrade.
    Mole

  38. #838
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRMOLE View Post
    Are 21700's a possible power source for the new self-contained light?



    I don't see much of a problem with you making a better light than your Lumina/Urban target competition but rather overcoming their brand name recognition as your major hurdle. Even tougher if either of those lights do a 21700 upgrade.
    Mole
    21700 is indeed a potential power source, although we've been moving down the road towards 18650 mostly because it's lighter and cheaper to get high quality cells. To get a high quality 21700 would cost twice as much and add an extra 20g or so in weight.

    The dimensional change isn't too bad, can be fit in the current design with a little massaging, but my main concern has usually been weight. We'll be able to exceed the runtime of the name brands with the current optic and LED design without having to resort to the heavy throttling that self contained lights are known for.

    Though you do bring up a good point, that it's only a matter of time before the others jump on the 21700 bandwagon, which then they might be able to match the runtime of the new light... But it'll still be 50-80g heavier than ours.

    My main design goals were: lightweight, great optics, lower price point, and at least two hours solid burn time with minimal throttling over time, could extend it even further with a similar adaptive strategy as the focal. 21700 is an easy way to hit that burn time, but at the expense of weight and cost... Tradeoffs....

  39. #839
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    Is it time yet? Can I pre-order now?

  40. #840
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy_burke View Post
    Is it time yet? Can I pre-order now?
    Glad you are getting amped.

    However I decided to push back the pre-order a few weeks. We got the prototypes, the optics look amazing and perform as simulated, but decided to tweak it, get a little more punch, pull in the width a bit and massaged the optic a little more. So another round of protos required.

    Also getting more production-looking prototypes of the overmolded parts with the screen printed logos so that it will be more clear what you are getting. Only get one chance to really impress, so I want to make sure we impress.

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    As a quality manager that deals with post production engineering changes constantly, good for you!

  42. #842
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    Glad you are getting amped.

    However I decided to push back the pre-order a few weeks. We got the prototypes, the optics look amazing and perform as simulated, but decided to tweak it, get a little more punch, pull in the width a bit and massaged the optic a little more. So another round of protos required....
    This entire design process is fascinating.
    Who is able to provide quick optical prototypes?
    Do you do the optic design/simulation yourself?

    Thanks,
    -F
    It's never easier - you just go faster.

  43. #843
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fleas View Post
    This entire design process is fascinating.
    Who is able to provide quick optical prototypes?
    Do you do the optic design/simulation yourself?

    Thanks,
    -F
    There is a prototyping company overseas that specializes in optical design work. They machine pieces of solid acrylic, polish them to the specs required, then create a silicone mold to create the silicone versions of the optic. The index of refraction is slightly different, but close enough that can judge the production optic off of it.

    I do indeed do all the optical design and simulation myself. I use a software package called Lucidshape which is used in automotive lighting design. One of those really niche pieces of software that costs a fortune, but with it combined with my years of optical design experience in the automotive space, is our technological advantage over other lights in this space.

    Seeing that no one else in the industry was taking lighting seriously beyond more lumens in off-the-shelf reflectors was why I decided to take the leap and start this company.

  44. #844
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    There is a prototyping company overseas that specializes in optical design work. They machine pieces of solid acrylic, polish them to the specs required, then create a silicone mold to create the silicone versions of the optic. The index of refraction is slightly different, but close enough that can judge the production optic off of it.

    I do indeed do all the optical design and simulation myself. I use a software package called Lucidshape which is used in automotive lighting design. One of those really niche pieces of software that costs a fortune, but with it combined with my years of optical design experience in the automotive space, is our technological advantage over other lights in this space.

    Seeing that no one else in the industry was taking lighting seriously beyond more lumens in off-the-shelf reflectors was why I decided to take the leap and start this company.
    Wow. You are the real deal. Thanks!

    -F
    It's never easier - you just go faster.

  45. #845
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    Alrighty, not the update you guys probably reallllyyyy wanted. But it's related to the current Focal Series, namely the Road Edition.

    I was answering at least 1-2 questions a week about how to mount the Road edition underneath a computer mount. I often would point to some GoPro C-extensions, or some people got clever with other GoPro accessories.

    I did some designing, and came up with this part. Surprisingly cheap enough to 3d print in mass to sell at a reasonable price. Not going to make any money on this mount, but an item to sell at cost in order to help convince more buyers to mount properly to their bike.

    Printed using SLS in a very durable Nylon material, this is not your typical FDM print. Instead this is very strong and will last in even the hardest of crashes. Because 3D printing isn't bound by the laws of plastic production, such as slides, drafts, etc. can have a little more design freedom, which I did.

    First production run of 30 prints will arrive in about 2 weeks and be live on the site to purchase soon for around $20.

    Outbound Lighting Focal Series  ---- Discussion -----58933195_356273391680831_5856231802661765120_n.jpg
    Outbound Lighting Focal Series  ---- Discussion -----58589388_832907263749166_8537016918421274624_n.jpg
    Outbound Lighting Focal Series  ---- Discussion -----58673870_2155122861261267_6506503900114190336_n.jpg
    Outbound Lighting Focal Series  ---- Discussion -----58812182_283409892612901_8296492320279232512_n.jpg

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    Yep, that's awesome! Nice work Matt!

    Love the extra detail in the machining to save weight. This is a well designed piece!

  47. #847
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    .......I did some designing, and came up with this part. ......
    We should have talked before you did those......
    GoPro adapters for bike lights http://www.pacifier.com/~kevinb/index.html

  48. #848
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    This is a random observation, but as an owner of 2 trail edition lights with the original larger cases, I would absolutely buy a new foam insert that would let me keep my trail edition lamp and the upcoming headlamp in the same case.

  49. #849
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

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    An excellent idea but....You really think the Garmin mount is sturdy enough to handle the extra weight? Really, I mean also the fact that the Garmin mount is off-set and the weight of the lamp head is quite heavy I would think the lamp head would be bobbing up and down all over the place. Add to that the extra extension toward the front holding more weight I would tend to think would be problematic. Of course if this works forget everything I just said.

  50. #850
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do View Post
    An excellent idea but....You really think the Garmin mount is sturdy enough to handle the extra weight? Really, I mean also the fact that the Garmin mount is off-set and the weight of the lamp head is quite heavy I would think the lamp head would be bobbing up and down all over the place. Add to that the extra extension toward the front holding more weight I would tend to think would be problematic. Of course if this works forget everything I just said.
    The lamphead is only 100g. For reference a GoPro Hero is 160g with the frame, a Lumina is 140g with the gopro mount, an L&M urban is almost as much too. So as long as it's tightened down good I don't think it should be too much of a problem even though it's cantilevered out a bit.

  51. #851
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do View Post
    An excellent idea but....You really think the Garmin mount is sturdy enough to handle the extra weight?.....
    If it isn't, the K-Edge out front style would be. It's aluminum and very nicely designed and manufactured.
    GoPro adapters for bike lights http://www.pacifier.com/~kevinb/index.html

  52. #852
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    @Outbound is Nate Hills running your lights? I just saw a screenshot of his latest Follow Cam Friday and it looks like a pair of your lights on the bars. Are you promoting this? Seems like it could get you some good exposure.

  53. #853
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    Yep! He's running the downhill kit and had an amazing time on the Hangover trail. Some of those sections are intense and even I was impressed the bar mount stayed rock solid!

    https://youtu.be/28HbGpL5EIY

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    He posted a bit on the blog on his website about it with a link to Outbounds site: https://www.natehills.com/blog

    -Garry

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    Watching that video reminded me of how much I miss riding at Sedona. Been about 7 years since I was last there. Too long!

    On Topic.. The video did a nice job capturing the beam characteristic of the Outbound light.
    GoPro adapters for bike lights http://www.pacifier.com/~kevinb/index.html

  56. #856
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vancbiker View Post
    If it isn't, the K-Edge out front style would be. It's aluminum and very nicely designed and manufactured.
    Yeah but even the K-Edge I don't think was designed to support that much weight. Keep in mind that if you add the additional extension for the OB lamp that it's going to extend out even farther and add more leverage for more ( possible) movement. Not saying it wouldn't work but I tend to be skeptical about such things.

    Now about that video; Scared the hell out of me just to watch it. One little slip up on some of those sections and you end up rolling down the side of a mountain butte that is entirely rock. I actually had something like that happen once and it wasn't fun. I wouldn't even try something like that now without a good deal of body armor. ( knee/shins, forearms/elbows and shoulders if I can find something not too uncomfortable ).
    I did find it odd that the guy with the video was using two lights and no one seemed to be using a helmet lamp .

    The guy in front must of been very familiar with the trail because he seem to know all the best lines. Has to be weird riding something like that at night because much of the trail is just riding through terrain that is purely rock with very little vegetation. At times it would be hard to tell what direction the trail is going. I did notice though that I thought I saw white painted lines on some of the rock that likely indicated just where the trail was going. Got to be hard to see those lines though at night so would be very helpful if you knew the trail very well before hand. I always wanted to ride in Arizona but obviously much of that stuff would be beyond my physical ability health wise / age wise now.

  57. #857
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    Gotta remember these are professional riders who live and breathe that area.

    Nate did tell me that he felt comfortable with only one light, but the camera was happier with two, and given that his videos are his livelihood he chose to go with what looks best on camera.

    He has two of the downhill packages, I believe that the rider in front wanted a helmet light without the cord going into the backpack so used what he already had, but had a trail edition on the bars. Nate had the trail on the bars and a road on the helmet, then put the extra road light next to the trail to help with the camera lighting.

  58. #858
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do View Post
    Yeah but even the K-Edge I don't think was designed to support that much weight. Keep in mind that if you add the additional extension for the OB lamp that it's going to extend out even farther and add more leverage for more ( possible) movement. Not saying it wouldn't work but I tend to be skeptical about such things.
    I understand being a bit skeptical, but having worked with some of the K-Edge stuff with GPS and dynamo light below, I can assure that it will hold the weigh and do it with minimal to no movement. The extended mount that Outbound is having printed may add some flex though. An aluminum extension like in the picture works really well. I have a few customers with this setup on their gravel bikes and very favorable reports.

    Outbound Lighting Focal Series  ---- Discussion -----edelux-adapter.jpg



    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do View Post
    Now about that video; Scared the hell out of me just to watch it. One little slip up on some of those sections and you end up rolling down the side of a mountain butte that is entirely rock.....

    ...I did notice though that I thought I saw white painted lines on some of the rock that likely indicated just where the trail was going. Got to be hard to see those lines though at night so would be very helpful if you knew the trail very well before hand. I always wanted to ride in Arizona but obviously much of that stuff would be beyond my physical ability health wise / age wise now.
    There are areas with some crazy exposure for sure. On the plus side though, the traction is incredible. One can ride some angles with perfect grip that you would just slide off in any other surface. I've ridden a few of the spots they showed in the video, and I'm not ashamed to say there were some I walked.

    The painted trail marks are pretty common on the rock surface trails in Arizona and Utah. In that wide open country I would give up my preference for a narrow spot type beam and go with a wider beam. Easier to spot those paint marks where the trail turns with a wide beam. I really liked seeing how the Outbound light performed on that terrain. Perfect application.
    GoPro adapters for bike lights http://www.pacifier.com/~kevinb/index.html

  59. #859
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vancbiker View Post
    I understand being a bit skeptical, but having worked with some of the K-Edge stuff with GPS and dynamo light below, I can assure that it will hold the weigh and do it with minimal to no movement. The extended mount that Outbound is having printed may add some flex though. An aluminum extension like in the picture works really well. I have a few customers with this setup on their gravel bikes and very favorable reports.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    .
    Even using these plastic Gloworm mounts has provided a stable/reliable mounting system for my OB lights. I think my main concern using one of those Garmin/K-edge style mounts would be how it would affect access to the control button of the light.

    Outbound Lighting Focal Series  ---- Discussion -----003-6-.jpg


    There are areas with some crazy exposure for sure. On the plus side though, the traction is incredible. One can ride some angles with perfect grip that you would just slide off in any other surface. I've ridden a few of the spots they showed in the video, and I'm not ashamed to say there were some I walked.

    The painted trail marks are pretty common on the rock surface trails in Arizona and Utah. In that wide open country I would give up my preference for a narrow spot type beam and go with a wider beam. Easier to spot those paint marks where the trail turns with a wide beam. I really liked seeing how the Outbound light performed on that terrain. Perfect application
    Loved the video and how it showed off the beam pattern of the light in an environment where it was very useful. As the primary custodian single parent most of my adult life my trail choices tended to be a bit more conservative. Lots of nice/fun trails at the bottom of those rock formations. Painted trail marking lines usually meant those were the trails I explored in hiking boots. Traction is definitely awesome on the rock though.
    Mole

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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    Gotta remember these are professional riders who live and breathe that area.

    Nate did tell me that he felt comfortable with only one light, but the camera was happier with two, and given that his videos are his livelihood he chose to go with what looks best on camera.

    He has two of the downhill packages, I believe that the rider in front wanted a helmet light without the cord going into the backpack so used what he already had, but had a trail edition on the bars. Nate had the trail on the bars and a road on the helmet, then put the extra road light next to the trail to help with the camera lighting.
    Good job pairing up with Nate, help grow your business. Get some more youtubers on your lights and youíre gonna need to start hiring staff!

  61. #861
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    Cool video, Nate is the real deal. Love watching his videos when he is on our local trails in the Denver Front Range. Really makes you feel not worthy.

    Trying to provide another point of view but probably just me, but no thanks on the cut off beam pattern for trail riding. Street/Road, yeah sure. Reminds of watching a video when the camera is pointed down to far and you try to keep looking up to pull the camera angle up. This was a trail that was pretty much void of overhanging trees/obstacles and overhanging obstacles but I still felt like something was going to jump out of the darkness above the first riders rear wheel any moment. I need a beam pattern that lights up the entire riding area including above me a bit.

    Outbound Lighting Focal Series  ---- Discussion -----amoeba-xp_g-beamshot.jpg



    ****

  62. #862
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    When the road version is used on the head you aim it up so the cutoff line isn't noticeable in your field of view. Since it's mounted firmly on the head it's interesting how then your brain doesn't even notice it after a few minutes, but you aren't wasting light in the trees.

    I wouldn't have suggested to put a road light on the bars in a place like Hangover, but for the camera more light was better.

  63. #863
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    Here is another recent night riding video from another popular Youtuber -





    *****

  64. #864
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vancbiker View Post
    I understand being a bit skeptical, but having worked with some of the K-Edge stuff with GPS and dynamo light below, I can assure that it will hold the weigh and do it with minimal to no movement. The extended mount that Outbound is having printed may add some flex though. An aluminum extension like in the picture works really well. I have a few customers with this setup on their gravel bikes and very favorable reports.

    There are areas with some crazy exposure for sure. On the plus side though, the traction is incredible. One can ride some angles with perfect grip that you would just slide off in any other surface. I've ridden a few of the spots they showed in the video, and I'm not ashamed to say there were some I walked.

    The painted trail marks are pretty common on the rock surface trails in Arizona and Utah. In that wide open country I would give up my preference for a narrow spot type beam and go with a wider beam. Easier to spot those paint marks where the trail turns with a wide beam. I really liked seeing how the Outbound light performed on that terrain. Perfect application.
    Cool. Glad to hear this is working. I'm also glad you mentioned about the terrain being super grippy. I did have to wonder when I saw some of those guys riding on angles that otherwise would be impossible on normal dirt terrain. That said, like you I would be one of the ones to walk anything that just looked too dangerous. I learned a long time ago not to venture beyond my perceived skill level. One of my most favorite quotes comes from an old "Dirty Harry" movie ( Clint Eastwood )...In the movie, said to a villain Harry is about to take out, "A man's got to know his limitations". ( Can't remember the exact scene but I remember the quote ) Anyway, I found that statement to have a lot of REAL LIFE application.

    edit; Youtube clip of the movie scene

  65. #865
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    Is it time to share new things yet?

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    i do have a question regarding the "getting home" mode: Is this mode voltage controlled? So could i "switch off" this mode by using a 11.1 V (3s configuration) li-ion battery instead of 7.4V (2s configuration), since the lamp can manage up to 14 V input?

  68. #868
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    What's it mean when the light's intensity is going from high to med repeatedly (ramps the intensity up and down between intensity settings over 1-2 secs) and it shows 3 green bars in the middle? I had this mode pop up after having the light in storage for over a month, but it went away after restarting the light.

    I'm guessing it's the slow pulse daytime running light mode? Maybe it was clumsy with turning it on and did a triple tap to access it? Honestly didn't know about it until I did a ctrl-F for pulse on this thread.

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    Edit: understand former post wrongly. Post could be deleted

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    Nah, I mean the light's intensity dimmed and brightened rhythmically after turning it on, without touching it to change settings. It was gradually increasing and decreasing brightness at a rate similar to breathing at rest.

    Never knew there was a Go Home mode. Thought it just aggressively enforced lower brightness modes at low battery life to get long run time.

  71. #871
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post
    Nah, I mean the light's intensity dimmed and brightened rhythmically after turning it on, without touching it to change settings. It was gradually increasing and decreasing brightness at a rate similar to breathing at rest.

    Never knew there was a Go Home mode. Thought it just aggressively enforced lower brightness modes at low battery life to get long run time.
    Ok, never had this. only accidentally switched to flashing mode. there are as well 3 bars in the middle. but that mode is on/off. maybe you found an easter egg?

    I think this enforcement of lower brightness mode is a part of the get home mode (i think that reduction in brightness happens once you reach 25% runtime left in the choosen mode). Never managed to override it completely, it is pretty insistent.

    Therefore i asked whether a 3s/11.1 V Battery might in fact deactivate this mode?

  72. #872
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRMOLE View Post

    I haven't seen anyone elso mention this but on some of my longer rides I'm not able to access the higher modes for the last portion of the ride. Once battery level goes down to 3 lights the second to the lowest mode is as high as the light will stay at and once down to 2 lights the lowest mode. Is this the way it's supposed to work? Not an issue when using the road version since I normally run it at the second to lowest mode anyway but it does limit the trail as I prefer using the higher modes. I'd been using older Ituo batteries for mounting reasons and had just assumed they were getting weaker and causing this but finally got around to meter testing using the newer OB battery and a fairly new 8400 M-tiger 6 cell battery I have. Running in the highest mode with the OB battery fan cooled in my kitchen the light lasted 70 min. till it stepped down to the second from lowest mode and 2:20 down to the lowest mode. Same test with the 6 cell battery netted 1:50 running at the highest level and continues at the second to lowest mode till approx 3:30. I'm thinking this must have something to do with the emergency power reserve settings cause at the end of the last test I plugged the battery into a BT40 that was sitting nearby and it powered up to its normal max lux readings. Whatever the cause I'd say if you do long rides and like to use the higher settings on your light getting a higher capacity battery is probably a good idea.
    Mole
    Figured I'd just quote this rather reference back to the post. Runtime information may be of interest to you guys.
    Mole

  73. #873
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post
    Nah, I mean the light's intensity dimmed and brightened rhythmically after turning it on, without touching it to change settings. It was gradually increasing and decreasing brightness at a rate similar to breathing at rest.

    Never knew there was a Go Home mode. Thought it just aggressively enforced lower brightness modes at low battery life to get long run time.
    Sounds like it is just going into a thermal protection mode. It's a fairly rough PID control that's designed to be fast responding. Rather than pull power and veryyy slowly add it back. It pulls power quick, then once it reaches the temperature set point, tries to add some back until it reaches the threshold again, etc. etc. That is what can cause the rhythmic pulsing when it just sits on a bench for a few minutes.

    Once you start moving and get some air flowing over it, it should go away.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    Sounds like it is just going into a thermal protection mode. It's a fairly rough PID control that's designed to be fast responding. Rather than pull power and veryyy slowly add it back. It pulls power quick, then once it reaches the temperature set point, tries to add some back until it reaches the threshold again, etc. etc. That is what can cause the rhythmic pulsing when it just sits on a bench for a few minutes.

    Once you start moving and get some air flowing over it, it should go away.
    I actually did an entire ride with it doing that. Didn't restart it until I got back home, which got it working like expected.

    Here's an 18 sec clip of what it looked like on the smoothest bit I could find, to show how it was pulsing despite airflow: https://youtu.be/Hy1zu2jyU1w

  75. #875
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    That is really odd. Shoot me an email [email protected] and we'll get you a new light head out and I'll get that one back so I can see if can figure out what causes that.

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    Thanks Mole for bringing up your post, i am aware of this issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by biking_tg View Post
    I think this enforcement of lower brightness mode is a part of the get home mode (i think that reduction in brightness happens once you reach 25% runtime left in the choosen mode). Never managed to override it completely, it is pretty insistent.

    Therefore i asked whether a 3s/11.1 V Battery might in fact deactivate this mode?
    @outbound: Is that brightness reduction battery voltage controlled, i.e can i avoid this by using a different voltage input (max 14V)? Do you plan at some point a software update which would allow to force off that mode if wanted by the user (i.e. by tapping 4 times on the button...)

    Also, here https://www.bikeforums.net/20028128-post21.html you mentioned a future lamp with dipped and high beam:
    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound
    Also in the future I do want to do a whole low/high beam lamp that's a little bigger than the current one, but that'll also be fairly pricey just because now have to double up on the chips and tooling sizes. The chips are one of the biggest cost driving factors (along with the battery). But if the kickstarter goes well, and specific optic type lamps like the Focal series can help us bring in revenue, can buy chips in larger quantities to help bring price down
    If i support hangover, is this then your next project ?

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    Starting from MRM's post #842, I find some of the discussion concerning "sudden drops in output" worrisome. If indeed the light is powering down from high to a much lower level after only 70 minutes ( assuming thermal regulation not the causal issue ) than all I can say is, "That kind'a sucks. If this is due to just normal voltage drop on the 4-cell battery than I think someone screwed the pooch. If the light head is using a decent 4-cell battery I'm of the opinion that the output shouldn't suddenly drop just because 70 minutes of high mode usage just went past. Of course most people probably wouldn't run a lamp continuously on it's highest mode for 70 minutes because ( typically ) it might overheat the lamp and waste a lot of run time. That said, if the lamp has a very good thermal regulation circuit I would only expect a gradual reduction in output ( and usually barely noticeable ) as this is how most bike lights control the over-heating problem ( assuming also normal air flow as one is riding to help cool the lamp ).

    What I found most disturbing was the video that ninjichor posted showing the lamp rapidly varying from bright to dim. Hopefully this is just a bad component / anomaly within the lamp and something not normal or a programmed part of the design. Personally I hate pre-programmed auto-dimming stuff unless there is less than 20 minutes of run time left ( on high ). Still, I'd rather have the notification of impending "shut down" just be something as simple as a single red warning light flashing, perhaps a couple quick pulsing bursts from the front lamp and then let the user decide what output he wants to continue to use. Definitely wouldn't want the lamp to suddenly drop down 600 lumen as I'm railing down a technical descent at high speed.

    Just now I looked at the Outbound Trail Edition on the Outbound website. ( Sorry, never really looked at it before ) I couldn't help but notice that there is nothing on the website that I saw that indicated the output of the lamp or what output the other modes were when it comes to "lumen output". ( the only mentioning anything having to do with output was a mention of the lamp providing "60 lux" ). This isn't Germany. This side of the pond we are used to comparing bike lights in "Lumen". Just the fact that one of the most important features ( of any lamp ) is not really mentioned ( output of all modes in the U.I. in lumen )...I tend to find that unacceptable. If I buy a lamp like this I want to know how bright it is on every single mode.

    ( *Please note: This is the kind of post i do when I'm on vacation and it's too hot to ride. If I can't ride I just sit around and read or bang my head on the walls. )

  78. #878
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do View Post
    Starting from MRM's post #842, I find some of the discussion concerning "sudden drops in output" worrisome. If indeed the light is powering down from high to a much lower level after only 70 minutes ( assuming thermal regulation not the causal issue ) than all I can say is, "That kind'a sucks. If this is due to just normal voltage drop on the 4-cell battery than I think someone screwed the pooch. If the light head is using a decent 4-cell battery I'm of the opinion that the output shouldn't suddenly drop just because 70 minutes of high mode usage just went past. Of course most people probably wouldn't run a lamp continuously on it's highest mode for 70 minutes because ( typically ) it might overheat the lamp and waste a lot of run time. That said, if the lamp has a very good thermal regulation circuit I would only expect a gradual reduction in output ( and usually barely noticeable ) as this is how most bike lights control the over-heating problem ( assuming also normal air flow as one is riding to help cool the lamp ).
    By design it is not a "sudden" drop, it is a gradual reduction in adaptive mode, and in a steady high mode it will start to reduce when there is less than 30 minutes of runtime left on the lowest mode. Note.... not 30 minutes left in the mode it's in. So if you were still running on high, you'd have at most like 5-6 minutes left. This get-back-home-mode is meant to leave a reserve of fuel left to be able to still .... get back home. I think a lot of people get confused thinking that I'm stealing 30 minutes of runtime in high from them, when it's 30 minutes of runtime in the lowest mode which is significantly longer than if it was left in the mode they were in.

    The only time thermal protection comes in is when it's just left sitting on a bench, or really really really hot ambient temps and hardly any movement.

    What I found most disturbing was the video that ninjichor posted showing the lamp rapidly varying from bright to dim. Hopefully this is just a bad component / anomaly within the lamp and something not normal or a programmed part of the design. Personally I hate pre-programmed auto-dimming stuff unless there is less than 20 minutes of run time left ( on high ). Still, I'd rather have the notification of impending "shut down" just be something as simple as a single red warning light flashing, perhaps a couple quick pulsing bursts from the front lamp and then let the user decide what output he wants to continue to use. Definitely wouldn't want the lamp to suddenly drop down 600 lumen as I'm railing down a technical descent at high speed.
    His lamp did appear to be malfunctioning, what he posted is not normal. I have not heard back from him on what his order # was, or where I can send a new lighthead.


    Just now I looked at the Outbound Trail Edition on the Outbound website. ( Sorry, never really looked at it before ) I couldn't help but notice that there is nothing on the website that I saw that indicated the output of the lamp or what output the other modes were when it comes to "lumen output". ( the only mentioning anything having to do with output was a mention of the lamp providing "60 lux" ). This isn't Germany. This side of the pond we are used to comparing bike lights in "Lumen". Just the fact that one of the most important features ( of any lamp ) is not really mentioned ( output of all modes in the U.I. in lumen )...I tend to find that unacceptable. If I buy a lamp like this I want to know how bright it is on every single mode.
    The omission of lumens is very intentional. This light is not intended to be compared via lumens with other lamps because the beam pattern is so radically different. Even comparing peak lux doesn't account for the beam pattern comparison.

    Comparing lumens for flashlights and other lights using the same reflector bowl pattern, and same circular beam pattern is fine because there is only so much that can be changed between lights. This is what emboldens companies to start lying or manipulating numbers and perverted the lumen numbers to the point that you can't really trust what almost anyone is saying unless you start doing integrating sphere testing.

    In the automotive OEM sector, it is the goal of a lighting designer to have high performance lighting with as little lumens as possible. Most of these single headlights are running 1100-1200 lumens with LED's, so a combined 2200-2400 lumens. However they are always trying to reduce that number as low as possible because that means can reduce the thermal mass, power draw, and weight. I took that approach to lighting to bikes and that's continued to be the main focus.

    Outbound Lighting Focal Series  ---- Discussion -----trail-edition-compare.jpg

    Outbound Lighting Focal Series  ---- Discussion -----trail-edition-compare01.jpg

    This is a Trail Edition vs a NR Lumina 1200 Boost. Similar optic used in the NR Pro 1800, so just expect a light that is little brighter, however the beam pattern is still very similar to most any reflector bowl style light no matter the manufacture. The lumens used in the Trail falls halfway between the two. Would you be able to accurately say that the Trail Edition is "accurately" lumens wise 25% brighter than the Lumina in this comparison? If you compared peak lux the Lumina would actually be brighter by almost 75%.

    However start moving the handlebars, get real world trail time, and the wide even illumination starts to make sense. We could measure at different points across the horizontal like road.cc does and then plot on the exponential scale to properly infer brightness as our eyes do, but then you are missing out on the vertical component of our lights and the light carpet that fills the foreground.... As you can see it's pretty frustrating to try and compare our beam patterns to others via lumens or lux.

    That's why I focus on video, I try pictures but that's still tough.... Nowadays most of our sales are through word of mouth. People see others using the lights on the trail or at races, and they have to have them. Experiencing it in person is still the best way to compare, and that is why I have the 30-day guarantee. If you don't think it's worth the $200 and isn't one of the better lights out there, send it back and I'll refund you in full and pay for shipping.

    To this date have had nearly 1,500 customers and I can recall only one or two guys taking me up on that.

  79. #879
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    By design it is not a "sudden" drop, it is a gradual reduction in adaptive mode, and in a steady high mode it will start to reduce when there is less than 30 minutes of runtime left on the lowest mode. Note.... not 30 minutes left in the mode it's in. So if you were still running on high, you'd have at most like 5-6 minutes left. This get-back-home-mode is meant to leave a reserve of fuel left to be able to still .... get back home. I think a lot of people get confused thinking that I'm stealing 30 minutes of runtime in high from them, when it's 30 minutes of runtime in the lowest mode which is significantly longer than if it was left in the mode they were in.
    .
    This doesn't seem to match the 70 min. I was getting in manual Hi mode so am I safe to assume that this is the way the newest lights are set up?
    Mole

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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    By design it is not a "sudden" drop, it is a gradual reduction in adaptive mode, and in a steady high mode it will start to reduce when there is less than 30 minutes of runtime left on the lowest mode. Note.... not 30 minutes left in the mode it's in. So if you were still running on high, you'd have at most like 5-6 minutes left. This get-back-home-mode is meant to leave a reserve of fuel left to be able to still .... get back home. I think a lot of people get confused thinking that I'm stealing 30 minutes of runtime in high from them, when it's 30 minutes of runtime in the lowest mode which is significantly longer than if it was left in the mode they were in....
    Thanks for the clarification. MrM, does your lamp operate this way?

    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    ...The omission of lumens is very intentional. This light is not intended to be compared via lumens with other lamps because the beam pattern is so radically different. Even comparing peak lux doesn't account for the beam pattern comparison.
    I don't own any German road lamps so I have no way to compare anything listed only in Lux. My CAt gut is telling me likely that most North Americans have no idea how much lux makes for a decent Bike light. ( unless they own a variety of German made lamps that ARE rated in lux. )

    Now about the Lumen issue; Not a good idea from a marketing stand point ( IMO ) not to at least include the lumen rating of the emitter chip you are using. People need information if they want to make an informed decision. When I purchase a lamp I consider not just lumen output but basic thermal design, LED type, beam pattern, type of User Interface and a bunch of other stuff I'll not go on to mention.

    Looking at this issue from another perspective; When I go to Target to buy light bulbs for my home lights I always read all the specs on the boxes. Now what if some manufacturer decided it wasn't important for the people buying their bulbs to know how bright the bulb was. ARE YOU GOING TO BUY THEIR BULBS? I think not. You're going to buy a brand that not only tells you whether or not it's an LED bulb or halogen, it's also going to tell you ( if the bulb happens to be an LED ) that the LED output ( listed in lumen ) is equivalent to a such or such watt halogen bulb. That my friend is useful information.

    Anyway, since I was curious about the LED's you used I reread the first few posts in this thread. Seems early on you were considering either the Osram Oslon Black Flat S series or the LUXEON Altilon SMD chip. Both offer choice of # of die's and so the outputs are similar. The Altilon SMD chip being perhaps 80 lumen less than the Olson Black Flat ( @1000ma ) when using all five dies. Of course no one but you knows how hard you are driving the emitter array or what bin is being used. That said we can only guess by what is on the data sheets and what the actual output might be. My guess, somewhere around 1600 lumen Meh, If I'm wrong please correct me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    ..Comparing lumens for flashlights and other lights using the same reflector bowl pattern, and same circular beam pattern is fine because there is only so much that can be changed between lights. This is what emboldens companies to start lying or manipulating numbers and perverted the lumen numbers to the point that you can't really trust what almost anyone is saying unless you start doing integrating sphere testing.
    .
    ...And yet you yourself compared your Trail Edition to a single emitter self-contained lamp with a mostly circular beam pattern ( and using a single optic ). Why not compare to another lamp with a wider beam pattern and using more emitters?

    Look, I'm not trying to bust your ****, I'm just trying to get a better understanding of the "Usability" of the lamps that you are selling. Might be a good idea ( your's ) to have it tested in an Integrating Sphere and then publish the results. If people like the results of that test my bet is you are going to be selling a lot more light sets......BUT HEY! what the hell do I know.

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    I'm with Cat, I think the lumen output(s) should be published. I would though suggest that there be information alongside the lumen number explaining "lumens aren't everything" or "less is more", etc. . . But I agree, there will certainly be those looking for the spec of lumen output. I would say that usually if a major spec isn't published it's because the manufacturer is hiding it, and likely because it sucks (we know it's not the case here, but what about the general public?).

    -Garry

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    I still think that Outbound lights should be compared to lights like the Light and Motion Seca and/or Taz family which has been said by many to have superb beams that arenít just circular hotspots. These lights have broad beam patterns with ceiling cutoff etc.

  83. #883
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do View Post
    Thanks for the clarification. MrM, does your lamp operate this way?
    I've never run my light in the adaptive mode so I can't confirm how it performs set that way. The 70 min. time in high mode (to stepdown) I listed was done indoors cooled by a fan and only meant to test how long the light would continue to run in its highest mode so not sure how the light would have performed from that point. Battery fuel gauge still showed 3 of 5 lights which seems correct considering the usage at that point for high mode so I would guess it had considerably more than 30 min. of runtime left used in the lowest mode. So quite different from Matt's description which is why I'm wondering if he was explaining how the programming is set now.
    Mole













    .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ....... *

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    Regardings lumen and specs:
    Quote Originally Posted by garrybunk View Post
    I'm with Cat, I think the lumen output(s) should be published. I would though suggest that there be information alongside the lumen number explaining "lumens aren't everything" or "less is more", etc. . .
    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do View Post
    [...] Anyway, since I was curious about the LED's you used I reread the first few posts in this thread.[...] Of course no one but you knows how hard you are driving the emitter array or what bin is being used. That said we can only guess by what is on the data sheets and what the actual output might be. [...] Might be a good idea ( your's ) to have it tested in an Integrating Sphere and then publish the results.[...]
    Well CAt, you need to relax a bit and go biking to vent off He gave nearly all the informations (during this rather lengthy discussion/thread) on the LEDs. Since i had kept notes while reading this whole discussion, i'll provide some details i know off (but i haven't noted the post numbers):
    Chip lumen values (still and only) given on the kickstarter page, scroll down to modes and runtimes https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...sting-bike-lig
    (won't post the graph here, as i don't want to be a spoilsport for Outbound, although i don't get it why it#s not given by him)
    H binning, so it's rated 1500 lm @1 A (~16W, which fits roughly the given run times on high for the supplied battery) and a color code 4A, i.e. 5680 K. He also gave twice an estimate on the light temperature after passing the reflector and lens:
    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    The Altilon starts out on the lower end of the 5000k spectrum (closer to cool white), and then when it passes the reflector and through the lens it gets knocked down to the mid 4000's (closer to warm white
    Probably Matt never wanted to spend money on a integrated sphere measurement, maybe the guys at wetestlights would be willing...
    In high mode the Road puts maybe a tad more (observed by eye) lumens on the road than my Lupine SL-F (at 16W max. power) in dipped mode. This one provides (FL-1) sphere measured 1000 lm.

    Regarding the step down
    Quote Originally Posted by MRMOLE View Post
    I've never run my light in the adaptive mode so I can't confirm how it performs set that way. The 70 min. time in high mode (to stepdown) I listed was done indoors cooled by a fan and only meant to test how long the light would continue to run in its highest mode so not sure how the light would have performed from that point. Battery fuel gauge still showed 3 of 5 lights which seems correct considering the usage at that point for high mode so I would guess it had considerably more than 30 min. of runtime left used in the lowest mode. So quite different from Matt's description which is why I'm wondering if he was explaining how the programming is set now.
    Mole
    In manual high i observe the same behaviour as MrM. However you can manually still switch after the stepdown from high to med back again to Med-high for a while, before it again steps down. With my lamp this initial step down also happens at 50% runtime left (3 leds), so the 2.6/2.8 hr runtime promise on high is not possible due to this step down.
    When i ordered my light in January 2019 i explicitely asked Matt whether i would get the new software version. Matt affirmed this, but it still behaves the same as Mole's, and he got the lamp i think during the Kickstarter campagain.... Matt wrote in a earlier post last year about this issue:
    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    The forcing of the lower modes is something that is going to be fixed in a programming change. Basically there as a safeguard to make sure never going to be left in the dark unexpectedly, but got too aggressive on the programming, and should have put in the function to allow an override once selected again. [...] Will be trying to figure out a way to get people who want the new programming update to get updated.
    Maybe the most recent lamps do really only this and do not have forced power reduction: (mine doesn't work that way)
    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    [...] in a steady high mode it will start to reduce when there is less than 30 minutes of runtime left on the lowest mode. Note.... not 30 minutes left in the mode it's in.[...]


    Possible solutions (besides humongous big batteries...)
    Quote Originally Posted by RAKC Ind View Post
    [...]
    Now I am wondering if I need to put a pack together specifically for this light that will keep voltage high enough for the majority of the run time. [...]
    RAKC did you ever try to run it on a 3S (11,1V Li-ion) battery? Does it there show the same behaviour? Outbound doesn't want to tell us yet whether this could be a work-around (and i don't want to buy a battery and a suitable charger to find out it doesn't work) to trick the software

    Adaptive mode
    A never answered question, where an answer would be really pretty useful:
    Quote Originally Posted by jham65 View Post
    I really like the idea of Adaptive Mode but if the power is cycled, I assume you reset the adaptive mode "timer." Is that correct? If so, would your recommend leaving the light on during, say a 15 minute a rest stop or turn off the light?
    Furthermore, is the timer reset once the lamp is switched off or does it "memorize" the state of the adaptive mode for a certain time as long as the battery is not disconnected? Would be handy...

  85. #885
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    Quote Originally Posted by biking_tg View Post
    Regardings lumen and specs:


    Well CAt, you need to relax a bit and go biking to vent off He gave nearly all the informations (during this rather lengthy discussion/thread) on the LEDs. Since i had kept notes while reading this whole discussion, i'll provide some details i know off (but i haven't noted the post numbers):
    Chip lumen values (still and only) given on the kickstarter page, scroll down to modes and runtimes https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...sting-bike-lig
    (won't post the graph here, as i don't want to be a spoilsport for Outbound, although i don't get it why it#s not given by him)
    H binning, so it's rated 1500 lm @1 A (~16W, which fits roughly the given run times on high for the supplied battery) and a color code 4A, i.e. 5680 K. He also gave twice an estimate on the light temperature after passing the reflector and lens:
    Yes, I figured as much but didn't feel like reading through the entire thread which is quite lengthy. This thread has been going on for a long time. I kind of followed the thread for a while and then decided to just let it go till an actual product was being sold. I do recall him mentioning the beam tint but not the lumen output. Never was interested in investing in one before an actual product was made so I never ventured to look at Kickstarter. BTW, I also looked at the Outbound website and it was not mentioned there either. Nice to know I was pretty close in estimating the output

    Quote Originally Posted by biking_tg View Post
    ....[B]Regarding the step down[/B
    In manual high i observe the same behaviour as MrM. However you can manually still switch after the stepdown from high to med back again to Med-high for a while, before it again steps down. With my lamp this initial step down also happens at 50% runtime left (3 leds), so the 2.6/2.8 hr runtime promise on high is not possible due to this step down.
    When i ordered my light in January 2019 i explicitely asked Matt whether i would get the new software version. Matt affirmed this, but it still behaves the same as Mole's, and he got the lamp i think during the Kickstarter campagain.... Matt wrote in a earlier post last year about this issue:

    Maybe the most recent lamps do really only this and do not have forced power reduction: (mine doesn't work that way)
    Well now, from what you have said here there seems to be more evidence of a problem with the step down circuitry that is designed to control run time. Should not be stepping down with 50% of the battery capacity left ( or so Outbound has led me to believe ).

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    Quote Originally Posted by garrybunk View Post
    I'm with Cat, I think the lumen output(s) should be published. I would though suggest that there be information alongside the lumen number explaining "lumens aren't everything" or "less is more", etc. . . ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do View Post
    ... Now about the Lumen issue; Not a good idea from a marketing stand point ( IMO ) not to at least include the lumen rating of the emitter chip you are using. People need information if they want to make an informed decision.
    You're critizism was heard, lumen values are again listed in the shop (see specs), and in a recent the blog entry Matt explaines what he means with "equivalent lumen"

    @Outbound: don't forget to answer our question regarding forcing of lower modes and regarding the functionality of the adaptive mode

  87. #887
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    Quote Originally Posted by biking_tg View Post
    You're critizism was heard, lumen values are again listed in the shop (see specs), and in a recent the blog entry Matt explaines what he means with "equivalent lumen"

    @Outbound: don't forget to answer our question regarding forcing of lower modes and regarding the functionality of the adaptive mode
    Just FYI, the lumens spec has always been there, and that blog post is over a year old.

    I don't mind having the lumen number, I just intentionally don't make it a focus in the advertising and marketing because I feel it only tells part of the story. While competing lights make it their main focus because it's the only thing that lets them stand out.

    I am investigating the power override a bit more. It was supposed to be fixed in the latest programming revision that I rolled out in January, and to be honest except for a few complaints on the forums here I haven't gotten any complaints from customers except for the few that power it on right out of the box and don't charge the battery up fully. Once they are instructed to charge the battery fully and let me know if still auto-overrides then to get back in touch, I never hear from them again, ha.

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    That reminds of me of David Pogueís camera reviews from ~10 years ago. He never missed an opportunity to complain about manufacturers using megapixel numbers to sell cameras rather than sensor size.

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    Here comes some feedback on the light distribution of the road edition. My initial impression is confirmed, after using the lamp more and more.
    1) i like that the Focal Road has not such a hard cutoff at the side (like i.e. the lupine does due to the lenses), it fades out a bit more. I also like the warmer color the Focal lights. The 5300 K binning might be even better, if you could get your hands on these.

    2) Now for my taste there is too much light in front off the bike, i'll try to show this by some pictures.
    At first two pics taken playing with the lamp adjustment, taken at the same spot.

    Cut-off adjusted as it should be (very slightly inclined downwards), where I marked the spot which is too bright:


    Cut-off line inclined slightly upwards, such that the trees in the distance were illuminated up to 4-5 m height:

    In the "high beam mode" the brightness is much more homogenous and it's better to drive with, but it countermands the cut-off line... (albeit nice as high beam function ). It could be still a bit less light infront of the bike, but it comes very close to what i would like in brightness distribution when the lamp is correctly adjusted.

    Next two pictures of another spot, left the outbound, right lupine sl-f(dipped mode)


    now the lupine (lower image) doesn't have a perfect light carpet (bright spot in the middle, followed by a darker area, but it is certainly better when it comes to the brightness in front of the bike.
    The excess light in front of the bike makes it harder to see better in the distance. From all the image i've seen so far, the trail edition also has a better brightness distribution in front of the bike compared to the distance.
    FYI: All images were taken only to illustrate my point, both lamps perform in the real world better than shown in these pictures

    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    Just FYI, the lumens spec has always been there, and that blog post is over a year old. ...
    Well, i got confused with the date, after reading your most recent blog entry (seen in the newsletter), i just thought: oh, the other one's new as well, but the year was different . So maybe CAt "had tomatoes on his eyes" (a german idiom, literally translated, used if some doesn't see things which are relatively easy to see)

    Btw the blog is not really linked on the outbound website (or i didn't see it although i used). I only could access it by knowing the adress or using your link from the newsletter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    I am investigating the power override a bit more. It was supposed to be fixed in the latest programming revision that I rolled out in January.... Once they are instructed to charge the battery fully
    Thanks, please keep us (or at least me) updated. I ordered Jan 15th, and unfortunately you can be assured the override didn't go away after charging the battery fully. Probably many people don't notice it much and just enjoy the long run time, but i like to control the power, depending on the situation (i.e. fast descent...). The aggressive override might be ok if the runtime at the chosen mode is less than 20%, but not 50%.

    Another suggestion regarding programming: Include a function, which indicates the battery charge status (not rel. runtime!). This could be shown i.e. after connecting the battery or after switching on/off the light (i.e. status lights blink a few times with the respective number of LEDs depending on the charge).
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Outbound Lighting Focal Series  ---- Discussion -----ol_low-beam_2.jpg  

    Outbound Lighting Focal Series  ---- Discussion -----ol_high-beam.jpg  

    Outbound Lighting Focal Series  ---- Discussion -----outbound.jpg  

    Outbound Lighting Focal Series  ---- Discussion -----lupine-sl-f.jpg  


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    @ biking_tg....FWIW I like the beam pattern and brightness of the OB road lamp ( judging from your photos ). The bright spot you complained about would likely not bother me as I typically ride roads that are dark asphalt so would likely not even show as a "bright spot".

    Now if OB can get this auto-power down thing figured out and come up with a remote control switch I might buy one of these lamps.

    Now about that "tomato's on his eye's" comment........ ( or to put another way, one should not have to scour the internet to find very pertinent information on a new product. It should be listed on the manufacturer's website "where all other manufacturers list their specifications". )

  91. #891
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do View Post
    @ biking_tg....FWIW I like the beam pattern and brightness of the OB road lamp ( judging from your photos ). The bright spot you complained about would likely not bother me as I typically ride roads that are dark asphalt so would likely not even show as a "bright spot".
    Well, i don't understand why i would even want on dark asphalt that much light in front of the bike. Might not be so disturbing on dark asphalt compared to brighter gravel, but there is no use to it. That light is better used for the distance. And even on asphalt it is for my liking and for my eyes still to bright. Admittely we at the other side of the pond do not so many dark asphalt roads (the only dark asphalt here is available when a road is freshly prepared/the asphalt deposited (or whatever the correct word is), it usually changes more towards gray quickly. The last two images i showed show the typical asphalt color in this place of the world.
    The issue is, the brighter area is more distracting on (med-)high mode, especially on bright gravel roads (and we have some of them). Since Outbound recommends in his latest Update/blog the road for a gravel bike, i see this as a problem.

    However as it's always useful to have a backup light, i usually have two lights on the bike and can, with respect to my needs, switch between the Focal road and the remote controlled SL-F . Both of them together produce a nice light

    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do View Post
    Now about that "tomato's on his eye's" comment........ ( or to put another way, one should not have to scour the internet to find very pertinent information on a new product. It should be listed on the manufacturer's website "where all other manufacturers list their specifications". )
    Well it is (and obviously was) listed once you go the shop section, right there at the "specs" . Admittedly it might not have been listed on the page which appeared earlier once you clicked on the respective lights and that were probably the sites you looked at. However the webpage has been again changed and these older product description pages have been removed and the respective shop section is now directly linked.
    Last edited by biking_tg; 08-01-2019 at 08:57 AM.

  92. #892
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    Quote Originally Posted by biking_tg View Post
    Well, i don't understand why i would even want on dark asphalt that much light in front of the bike. Might not be so disturbing on dark asphalt compared to brighter gravel, but there is no use to it. That light is better used for the distance. And even on asphalt it is for my liking and for my eyes still to bright. Admittely we at the other side of the pond do not so many dark asphalt roads (the only dark asphalt here is available when a road is freshly prepared/the asphalt deposited (or whatever the correct word is), it usually changes more towards gray quickly. The last two images i showed show the typical asphalt color in this place of the world.
    The issue is, the brighter area is more distracting on (med-)high mode, especially on bright gravel roads (and we have some of them). Since Outbound recommends in his latest Update/blog the road for a gravel bike, i see this as a problem.

    However as it's always useful to have a backup light, i usually have two lights on the bike and can, with respect to my needs, switch between the Focal road and the remote controlled SL-F . Both of them together produce a nice light


    Well it is (and obviously was) listed once you go the shop section, right there at the "specs" . Admittedly it might not have been listed on the page which appeared earlier once you clicked on the respective lights and that were probably the sites you looked at. However the webpage has been again changed and these older product description pages have been removed and the respective shop section is now directly linked.
    I can relate to what you are saying in regard to illumination ( distance and near the bike ). However I think the issue here might be in how you prefer to aim the OB lamp. If you aim it too low you will of course get more light in the forefront ( closer to the bike ). The other photo where you aimed the lamp a bit higher seemed to provide a more evenly spread beam pattern. Much more to my liking to say the least.

    Now about what you said about the asphalt roads where you live; Yes, I see what you mean. New asphalt is much darker. Where I live I don't see much newer asphalt but yes the asphalt does get grayer ( or lighter to put another way ) as it gets older. Not as gray as the roads you ride on but like all things, depends on where you choose to ride or where you live I suppose. I went back and looked at some of my old road photos and though some of those roads are grayish they don't look near as light colored as the roads in your neck of the woods.

    Like you I use a two lamp system when riding on the road. My low beam lamp is one of the Raveman lamps ( with a cut-off type lens ) while the lamp I use for high beam is the Gemini Duo with dual spot optics. Both lamps operate via remote control so I always have the amount of light I need at any given moment. My interest in the Outbound light systems is because one; it is affordable and two, It has the potential to be a "one lamp system" that can provide a usable low and high beam. I'd probably own one if it offered a remote control but if I did I'd likely aim it a little higher than you do.

    The Outbound website now lists the lumen output ( as it should ). It was not there before as Mr. OB said when he first responded to my earlier post. I guess he considered what I had to say made for a valid point and therefore updated the website.

    Like you I have a two lamp system on my bike that works. I don't really need another lamp. Of course the "Light Junkie" in me is always interested in the new innovating products and so I love reading about and testing new types of bike lights. ( one of my few weaknesses....buying bike lights I really don't need... )

  93. #893
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do View Post
    I can relate to what you are saying in regard to illumination ( distance and near the bike ). However I think the issue here might be in how you prefer to aim the OB lamp. If you aim it too low you will of course get more light in the forefront ( closer to the bike ). The other photo where you aimed the lamp a bit higher seemed to provide a more evenly spread beam pattern. Much more to my liking to say the least. [....]
    I did I'd likely aim it a little higher than you do.
    Ah Cat, now you're even agreeing with my judgement Even though i had the lamps (OB and SL) in "dipped mode" aimed to max "non-blinding" reach (, i.e. 0.1 - 1į degree aimed down, like a car headlight), the outbound has still that bright spot in front off the bike. If you aim it higher, it gets much better but you get essentially a high beam lamp. So the elsewise excellent cut-off design becomes totally useless on road with oncoming traffic as you then blind them. That is my point of critizism. If i buy a cut-off lamp i hope to get the perfect light carpet when i aim the cut-off in a legally correct way ( as described abov)

    The images in post 889 do not show the proper reach of the lights, the camera settings were less than ideal for this (in reality you could see much further than on the pictures), but good for showing the bright spot

    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do View Post
    ...Of course the "Light Junkie" in me is always interested in the new innovating products and so I love reading about and testing new types of bike lights. ( one of my few weaknesses....buying bike lights I really don't need... )
    Ha, i have an inner light junkie as well... this junkie is expensive...
    btw the OB does not really need a remote, that is imho only needed if you have a integrated high beam function by switching on additional LEDs. No other of the expensive cut-off lamps (without high-beam function!) like the supernova M99 pures or the Lupine SL (without F) have a remote, because you do not really need it.

  94. #894
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do View Post
    The Outbound website now lists the lumen output ( as it should ). It was not there before as Mr. OB said when he first responded to my earlier post. I guess he considered what I had to say made for a valid point and therefore updated the website.
    Just to re-iterate. We've always had chip lumen output under the specs area since I launched the light over a year ago. I just don't care to make it a main point of marketing so it's not posted right up front, first line, like a lot of competitor lights. I'm sure we lose a few potential customers who are just shopping by lumen numbers but it doesn't worry me. Our sales are still very strong and have a pretty high conversion rate on the site.

    Speaking of, just placed the reorders for this fall, so we won't have a repeat of last year where we were out of stock from October till Xmas. Got plenty of inventory this year!

  95. #895
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    Quote Originally Posted by biking_tg View Post
    Ah Cat, now you're even agreeing with my judgement Even though i had the lamps (OB and SL) in "dipped mode" aimed to max "non-blinding" reach (, i.e. 0.1 - 1į degree aimed down, like a car headlight), the outbound has still that bright spot in front off the bike. If you aim it higher, it gets much better but you get essentially a high beam lamp. So the elsewise excellent cut-off design becomes totally useless on road with oncoming traffic as you then blind them. That is my point of critizism. If i buy a cut-off lamp i hope to get the perfect light carpet when i aim the cut-off in a legally correct way ( as described abov)

    The images in post 889 do not show the proper reach of the lights, the camera settings were less than ideal for this (in reality you could see much further than on the pictures), but good for showing the bright spot
    Yes, hard to judge from photos of beam patterns simply because almost all cameras tend to over-compensate to light in the foreground.

    For what it's worth my Raveman lights also tend to have a brighter light closer to the bike if I'm using the higher output levels. Since I tend to use the lower power levels most of the time and the fact that I usually focus my eyesight toward the far end of the beam pattern I don't find the closer light to be a major distraction. Besides, sometimes I need to see the smaller debris in the road and that's not going to happen at distance. More than likely I see that stuff when it gets real close to the bike so in that sense it makes sense to have a lamp that provides enough light up close to the bike as well.

    About the aiming of the cut-off; If you truly have a lamp with a defined cut-off, aiming it slightly up ( so you can see farther ) should not overly blind vehicles approaching from the front since most of the light is still directed to the road surface. Besides if the cut-off is directed too close to the bike you then you can't see as far as you need to see. I do understand your argument that it would be better if more light was directed to the distance cut-off portion of the beam pattern and then tapered to less when closer to the bike. The thing is once you design something like that if you start to use lower output levels then suddenly you could find yourself not able to see things up closer to the bike when using less output. Personally I think I could deal with a little brighter light closer to the bike but since I don't own the OB I can't really say for sure.

  96. #896
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    @OUTBOUND:
    What is your opinion on this bright spot matter? Do you disagree with my judgement and never considered this as a problem or do you just prefer it this way?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do View Post
    [...]About the aiming of the cut-off; If you truly have a lamp with a defined cut-off, aiming it slightly up ( so you can see farther ) should not overly blind vehicles approaching from the front since most of the light is still directed to the road surface.
    I disagree here, many cut-off lamps have bright hotspot just below the cut-off. This applies to the OB Focal as well. Just think about how many car lights blind because the car is loaded heavily and people do not manually adjust the head beam with that little wheel in the dashbord (at least here in germany this happens all the time)
    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do View Post
    Besides if the cut-off is directed too close to the bike you then you can't see as far as you need to see.
    That's clear, but as i wrote, i adjusted as high as possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do View Post
    I do understand your argument that it would be better if more light was directed to the distance cut-off portion of the beam pattern and then tapered to less when closer to the bike. The thing is once you design something like that if you start to use lower output levels then suddenly you could find yourself not able to see things up closer to the bike when using less output.
    I disagree here as well, the Lupine has such a beam pattern and it gives me no trouble on lower power modes (the lowest mode there is comparable to the lowest of the OB, and the lupine is substantially more useful on low as you can see much better to the distance, without having problems seeing enough in front of you bike). Lights like the B&M Ixon IQ Premium have a bright spot in the distance and less in front of the bike and were at their time very good lights with only about 100-200 lm, or take the Philips Saferide 80, excellent homogenous beam (albeit a bit narrow) and only 250 lm (or close to that +- 30lm)

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    Does anyone know the polarity of the power cord? I just bought the light head and need to know the polarity to get it wired correctly. Thanks in advance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by motorider78 View Post
    Does anyone know the polarity of the power cord? I just bought the light head and need to know the polarity to get it wired correctly. Thanks in advance.
    If the cords are red and black: red: +/power, black - /ground
    Source: OL on the question of the wire polarity of his extension cables.
    To be sure, sent OL an email or call and you know it.

    In case you havent cut the connector plug away already: you might consider getting an extension cable and cut it, so you won't loose the 5521 plug.

  99. #899
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    Quote Originally Posted by motorider78 View Post
    Does anyone know the polarity of the power cord? I just bought the light head and need to know the polarity to get it wired correctly. Thanks in advance.
    Just dug through some old emails when I helped a customer figure this out last year. The outer jacket is ground, and the inner prong is power. Hope this helps

  100. #900
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    Focal got some major love from Pinkbike in their new light comparison, congrats.

  101. #901
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velodonata View Post
    Focal got some major love from Pinkbike in their new light comparison, congrats.
    Thanks for posting this! Excellent article. Outbound Trail, "Best light in test" .
    Mole

    https://www.pinkbike.com/news/10-bes...den-rated.html

  102. #902
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    Congrats on the review, well deserved!

  103. #903
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    I thought the last part was cute:

    "Some extra special testing was done by the local after school mountain biking program. We lent out the test lights to elementary school kids and their instructors to spend their last day of the program experiencing night riding. They all loved the night riding adventure - and each thought that their light was by far the best of the bunch."

  104. #904
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    i have two of the flat adhesive gopro mounts on my helmet, one on the top side, and one on the back of the head. i can mount the light to the top side mount via gopro mount, would it be possible to mount the battery pack to my rear gopro mount on the helmet? i'm just trying to avoid running a cable down my back.

    as a helmet light, is the hangover light better than the trail edition light?
    2017 yeti sb6c turq x01 eagle

  105. #905
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    Quote Originally Posted by useport80 View Post
    as a helmet light, is the hangover light better than the trail edition light?
    Depends what you expect from a helmet light. The trail edition was never intended as helmet light, from the focal series the road edition was intended as helmet light in addition to the the Trail on the bars.

    If you look at the OL webpage/shop, you can see that the Hangover has more "punch" at the center of the beam (more lux) than the trail edition, but the trail edition has a much wider beam with less reach. Outbound stated the hangover can be well used on the helmet with a trail on the bars.
    You can find in the OL Shop at the hangover product page a graph of the light simulation for the hangover, the same thing for the Trail edition at Instagram (i guess an earlier prototype, but sufficient to point out the difference).

  106. #906
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    So the question I have is...will the Hangover (helmet) with the Trail (bars) be a better MTB combo than the Road (helmet) and Trail (bars)?

  107. #907
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    Quote Originally Posted by RipleyV4 View Post
    So the question I have is...will the Hangover (helmet) with the Trail (bars) be a better MTB combo than the Road (helmet) and Trail (bars)?
    For me it will in that the Hangover doesnít have a detached battery. I donít mind it on the frame, but itís irritating to take my helmet off and have it cabled to my bag.

  108. #908
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    I hear you and I feel the same way, but if the Road outperforms the Hangover as a helmet light then I could deal with being tethered. I usually have a backpack when night riding just cause I don't want to get stuck in the dark without necessities. So tucking a battery in the pack wouldn't be the end all.

  109. #909
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    @Outbound:
    Tom writes in his IG Post about using an "updated focal trail" on the bars. Spill the beans, what does "updated" mean?


    Quote Originally Posted by RipleyV4 View Post
    but if the Road outperforms the Hangover as a helmet light then I could deal with being tethered.
    Since the road has more lux (at the brightest spot 110) and more lumens, it will in a way outperform the hangover. The biggest difference is that the road has a cut-off reflector, while the hangover doesn't have it. However with the lamp on the head, you can just move your head and the cut-off is not a limiting factor anymore.
    Advantage of the road edition: you'll have a pretty good light for road use as well (actually it is one of the best, and i have seen/used in real life all of the high price cut-off lamps which are available up to now)!

  110. #910
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    Quote Originally Posted by evasive View Post
    ...itís irritating to take my helmet off and have it cabled to my bag.
    Ouch!
    Do the math.

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    Battery life?

    Iíve sent e-mails to Outboundlighting, but I havenít received any reply, so letís try this way.
    Excerpt from my e-mail:
    ĒWhen the battery goes to 50%(three leds) after around one hour of running time, power is cut to medium... It can be manually adjusted to medium-high, but not to high. Therefore mentioned 2,6 hrs running time on high is very doubtful. Actually I got only total of 3 hrs of running time on high, then it was dropped to med-high after approx one hour and then first led started to blink. Could the battery be faulty?
    Please can you comment this?Ē



  112. #912
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    Focal Series Power drop down

    Quote Originally Posted by ohahonen View Post
    When the battery goes to 50%(three leds) after around one hour of running time, power is cut to medium... It can be manually adjusted to medium-high, but not to high. Therefore mentioned 2,6 hrs running time on high is very doubtful. Actually I got only total of 3 hrs of running time on high, then it was dropped to med-high after approx one hour and then first led started to blink. Could the battery be faulty?
    Please can you comment this?Ē
    A quick calculation: The battery has a capacity of ~50 Wh, and the light on high is driven by ~17W. So in theory 2.6 hr is a possible running time. BUT:
    the lights have that battery saving mode to avoid that your runtime is too low. We had this in the thread before. It is a feature of the lights software (which were nice, if it could be overriden, but it can't), so not a battery issue.
    I assume it's cold at your place right now as well? So in cold conditions, the capacity of any battery is lowered, and the cell voltage is lower than in warmer conditions, especially if higher currents are taken from the battery. So yes, in colder conditions: shorter runtimes on totally realistic. In theory you should have 01:20 hr runtime on high, before the power drop down kicks in.

    And actually: The LEDs do not show the remaining capacity, they indicate the remaining runtime in the choosen mode (at least my focal road does it). If the lights steps down to med and you go to low, you have again 5 LEDs lit up. (only in high mode it is more or less equivalent to the capacity)

    A.t.m I think Matt (a.k.a Outbound) is drowning in work with the hangover production, so i'd try to call him instead of waiting on a email reply. But as said, and as discussed before (i mentioned this, MrMole as well): software feature, not battery issue. He recognized that issue in the hangover thread, where he said that the hangover either doesn't have this feature or it would allow an override of that feature.

    I assume (haven't tried yet, will probably try within the next few weeks) that a battery with 3 cells in series (and a voltage of 11V) would trick the lights software, since that feature must be voltage controlled. The light itself works with input voltages of max 14V.


    One can hope that, once the hangover production is rolling and the massive pre-orders are shipped out, Matt spents some time on a software update and offers a then a software update to existing customers (he said earlier in the thread he'd do it)

    Hope this helps

  113. #913
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    Focal Series Output step down

    My focal road (bought Jan 2019) was tested with a (non calibrated) lab dc source to check for step down voltages:

    Stepdown from high to med occurs below 7.3V, below 6.3V a step down from medium occurs.

    This means a 3S battery (11V) will prevent the light from stepping down, allowing full usage of the light modes at any state of charge!


    In Post #702 Outbound addresses that issue of the forcing of lower modes, the only thing is: the supposedly new software still does ist

    In Post #754 MrMole reported some runtime tests with different batteries where he checked when the step down happens.
    Last edited by biking_tg; 2 Weeks Ago at 12:01 PM.

  114. #914
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    Quote Originally Posted by ohahonen View Post
    Iíve sent e-mails to Outboundlighting, but I havenít received any reply, so letís try this way.
    Excerpt from my e-mail:
    ĒWhen the battery goes to 50%(three leds) after around one hour of running time, power is cut to medium... It can be manually adjusted to medium-high, but not to high. Therefore mentioned 2,6 hrs running time on high is very doubtful. Actually I got only total of 3 hrs of running time on high, then it was dropped to med-high after approx one hour and then first led started to blink. Could the battery be faulty?
    Please can you comment this?Ē


    Is the battery new? If not, how old is the battery? Also, what ambient temps are you experiencing?

  115. #915
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    Thanks @biking_tg, This helped me a lot, since I've been trying to understand what's going on with the software with step down and battery gauge but haven't had time yet to wade through this whole thread to figure it out. Still wouldn't trade this light for any other!

    Quote Originally Posted by biking_tg View Post
    A quick calculation: The battery has a capacity of ~50 Wh, and the light on high is driven by ~17W. So in theory 2.6 hr is a possible running time. BUT:
    the lights have that battery saving mode to avoid that your runtime is too low. We had this in the thread before. It is a feature of the lights software (which were nice, if it could be overriden, but it can't), so not a battery issue.
    I assume it's cold at your place right now as well? So in cold conditions, the capacity of any battery is lowered, and the cell voltage is lower than in warmer conditions, especially if higher currents are taken from the battery. So yes, in colder conditions: shorter runtimes on totally realistic. In theory you should have 01:20 hr runtime on high, before the power drop down kicks in.

    And actually: The LEDs do not show the remaining capacity, they indicate the remaining runtime in the choosen mode (at least my focal road does it). If the lights steps down to med and you go to low, you have again 5 LEDs lit up. (only in high mode it is more or less equivalent to the capacity)

    A.t.m I think Matt (a.k.a Outbound) is drowning in work with the hangover production, so i'd try to call him instead of waiting on a email reply. But as said, and as discussed before (i mentioned this, MrMole as well): software feature, not battery issue. He recognized that issue in the hangover thread, where he said that the hangover either doesn't have this feature or it would allow an override of that feature.

    I assume (haven't tried yet, will probably try within the next few weeks) that a battery with 3 cells in series (and a voltage of 11V) would trick the lights software, since that feature must be voltage controlled. The light itself works with input voltages of max 14V.


    One can hope that, once the hangover production is rolling and the massive pre-orders are shipped out, Matt spents some time on a software update and offers a then a software update to existing customers (he said earlier in the thread he'd do it)

    Hope this helps

  116. #916
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    Quote Originally Posted by icycle View Post
    Thanks @biking_tg, This helped me a lot, since I've been trying to understand what's going on with the software with step down and battery gauge but haven't had time yet to wade through this whole thread to figure it out. Still wouldn't trade this light for any other!
    Just curious has anyone compared this light to something higher end, gemeni titan or a lupine wilma seems its been compared to some of the smaller flashlight type lights. I got one and doesn't seem very bright or have much throw, just curious thanks

  117. #917
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    Quote Originally Posted by JIMSLICK View Post
    Just curious has anyone compared this light to something higher end, gemeni titan or a lupine wilma seems its been compared to some of the smaller flashlight type lights. I got one and doesn't seem very bright or have much throw, just curious thanks
    Background: I use it only on the bar and am awaiting their Hangover light for the helmet.

    Here's how I look at it: this light has the best beam pattern I've seen coupled with very efficient electronics. Using only this light on the bars, I can ride nearly full speed on my local trails, including very technical downhills. There are few times I'm needing more or different light: very tight corners and sharp ups or downs and for all of this it's because it's bar mounted. For everything else, including most corners, the wide beam reaches nicely. And if you aim it up a little higher for wide open or fast riding then it's even better.

    About the efficient electronics, the thing can stay on high at a stop for several minutes at 40F and not even be warm to the touch. In fact, I've never felt the top of this light warm in all the cooler weather riding I've done with it so far. Now I don't claim to understand the programming yet but I can basically throw this on high (not adaptive, but high) and run it for nearly 4 hours and still have 3 on the battery meter. It had stepped down to med high and then med by the end of this time (behavior I want to understand better), so it's kinda set it and forget it and think about the ride.

    Long story short is yeah, it doesn't punch like the lights you're talking about, but it puts plenty of light in all the right places and does so efficiently. Totally the right choice for me. When I get the punchier Hangover in, I expect the few downsides I mentioned to be solved, all for < $350 for both lights.

  118. #918
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    Re-edit...

  119. #919
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    Quote Originally Posted by VegasSingleSpeed View Post
    Is the battery new? If not, how old is the battery? Also, what ambient temps are you experiencing?
    Got this issue sorted. Matt offered excellent solution, great service! The battery is a bit over one month old, came with the set I bought. And just ordered a road edition to complement it as a helmet light.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ohahonen View Post
    Got this issue sorted. Matt offered excellent solution, great service.
    Would you mind sharing that solution?

    Quote Originally Posted by icycle View Post
    but I can basically throw this on high (not adaptive, but high) and run it for nearly 4 hours and still have 3 on the battery meter. It had stepped down to med high and then med by the end of this time (behavior I want to understand better), so it's kinda set it and forget it and think about the ride.
    4 hours on high and still having 3 diodes on the meter left is physically not possible, if you use the original OL 4cell battery.
    Could it be that you don't notice the drop-down from high to med after 1:20 hr, because you're so busy riding?

  121. #921
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    I just picked up a gopro hero 8 and made a video of my Outbound Lights downhill package. The stabilization didn't work to well at night but it gives you a good idea of the lights.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqulJvDcXQY

  122. #922
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    My thoughts on the downhill package: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqulJvDcXQY

  123. #923
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    Quote Originally Posted by biking_tg View Post
    4 hours on high and still having 3 diodes on the meter left is physically not possible, if you use the original OL 4cell battery.
    Could it be that you don't notice the drop-down from high to med after 1:20 hr, because you're so busy riding?
    Sorry for the confusion, what I meant by:

    Quote Originally Posted by icycle View Post
    I can basically throw this on high (not adaptive, but high) and run it for nearly 4 hours and still have 3 on the battery meter. It had stepped down to med high and then med by the end of this time (behavior I want to understand better), so it's kinda set it and forget it and think about the ride.
    is that it starts on high and stepped down to med high and then medium but was able to keep the ride going without worrying much about the battery level. Now, that's great for long rides but I would like to be able to override that when I want 2-2.5h on high.

  124. #924
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    one more time anyone compare this light to something high end like a gemeni titan or lupine wilma, i have one and it just doesn't seem very bright or have much throw but hey im 59 and ptobably half blind

  125. #925
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    Quote Originally Posted by JIMSLICK View Post
    one more time anyone compare this light to something high end like a gemeni titan or lupine wilma, i have one and it just doesn't seem very bright or have much throw but hey im 59 and ptobably half blind
    I'm 53 with poor night vision and I agree with you about the Trail model. The best bar light I've ever used without a doubt is the Magicshine Monteer 6500. Other lights I've used: Lupine Betty/Wilma R; Gloworm XS/X2; Light and Motion Seca 2500; Cateye Volt 6000; Outbound Road/Trail.

  126. #926
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    Quote Originally Posted by JIMSLICK View Post
    one more time anyone compare this light to something high end like a gemeni titan or lupine wilma, i have one and it just doesn't seem very bright or have much throw but hey im 59 and ptobably half blind
    Outbound Lighting Focal Series  ---- Discussion -----002.jpg

    I don't own or have access to a 6 LED Gemini Titan or a Lupine Wilma but own all the above pictured lights that have outputs from 2000 to just under 3000 measured lumens + have both the road and trail version of the OB lights. Claiming 1500ish lumens with a very wide beam the OB trail definitely has a less intense beam and limited throw compared to any of the other lights pictured but that's to be expected. The OB trail was designed for forest use where the lines of sight are relative short and used in that invironment is the best light of ones pictured. If the trails you ride require more intensity and throw then I'd say you've got the wrong light. It's great at what it was designed for but its beam is not tuneable so not quite as flexible as some of the lights with changeable optics.
    Mole

  127. #927
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    Thanks for your reply, interesting that the magicshine beat out the other high end lights you listed especially the Lupine lights, might have to put that one on my Christmas list. Think its gonna come down to the Magicshine or the Gemeni titan thanks again

  128. #928
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    Just watched the video of that Magicshine Monteer and was unimpressed. Emittersí color temperature is cool so the lamp bleaches out all the dry leaves and other organic matter you see on the trail for a really lifeless effect. You could get just as much coverage and a lot better illumination from a couple cheap lamps in Neutral White 4000K, IMHO.

  129. #929
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    How is the cutoff achieved in the Road edition? Can it be modded so you get the same beam height as the Trail edition, but with more throw?

  130. #930
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zayphod View Post
    How is the cutoff achieved in the Road edition? Can it be modded so you get the same beam height as the Trail edition, but with more throw?
    It's designed into the reflector, there is no way to change it other than maybe putting some sort of diffuser on the outside of the lens, but that is very much a crude hack with no guarantee of decent results.

  131. #931
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    Quote Originally Posted by JIMSLICK View Post
    Thanks for your reply, interesting that the magicshine beat out the other high end lights you listed especially the Lupine lights, might have to put that one on my Christmas list. Think its gonna come down to the Magicshine or the Gemeni titan thanks again
    The Magicshine has a great, soft flood up-close in addition to having sufficient throw. I'm guessing--from the beam shots available online--that the Titan is more of a thrower with less peripheral and up-close illumination.

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