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  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    everyone has their own personal preference for sure, and that's why I hope to expand the product line in the near future. I started out with this light as my own personal "best" light, essentially what would I want to use as a rider, knowing what's potentially possible as an optical design engineer.
    Always good to see a light designed by someone who is passionate about the final outcome rather than the one size fits all approach for maximum bottom line!
    Mole (backer 141)

  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRMOLE View Post
    Always good to see a light designed by someone who is passionate about the final outcome
    This is one of the aspects of this light that has me thinking so much about leaving the DIY world for a bit and buying an Outbound.

    In pretty much every other case of new lights coming to market I could kind of ignore them as I knew my DIY lights would be brighter, lighter, higher quality, more suited to my beam preference, etc. Much more costly too, but hey it's a fun "hobby". Now Outbound comes along with what appears to be a supremely engineered product that has LED and reflector technology that I can't touch with a DIY build.
    GoPro adapters for bike lights http://www.pacifier.com/~kevinb/index.html

  3. #203
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    The soft packages look awesome. Fingers crossed that works out.

  4. #204
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    Forgot to post about that here! Thanks for reminding me, haha.

    As he said, we got some custom samples of soft hardcases (oxymoron eh?) that we are thinking we may be able to include if we can hit the $28k goal. Essentially another $5000 that we would need to justify the added costs.

    Outbound Lighting Focal Series  ---- Discussion -----dsc_0009-1-.jpg

    Outbound Lighting Focal Series  ---- Discussion -----dsc_0012-1-.jpg

    Super nice feeling, tons of room to store all your other lights that you'd be bringing on a ride.

  5. #205
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    This thread has been a very professional presentation of your product. Thank you.

    I am glad you decided to take on the glare issue road riders must deal with as there are too few options for true cutoff beams in the US. I am looking forward to adding your lights to my stable.

    While I am sure that 1500lm will be plenty for 95% of my road rides, I do have steep, curvy sections of new asphalt where even my 2500lm Gloworm XS leaves a bit on the table. Do you have any plans to offer higher output version in the future? A good beam pattern is almost the whole battle, but there are places where one just needs to send a boatload of photons downrange.

    What was the resolution for KS'ing just the head unit? I thought I saw resolution on that, but did not find it by re-reading the thread.

    Thanks for the great work!
    I will suffer no butt-hurt fools!

  6. #206
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    Lazer is definitely of the sophisticated type. Just had those simple light bars in mind. Very interesting indeed and giving a hint (besides all the described technical relations) why you opted for magnesium as housing material ;-)

    Concerning the price tag I have to admit, when buying instead of building a light I was always considering expensive ones like Lupine, but then opted to build it myself as it's the same price, but I know what get and am fairly "better". If aquiring a manufacturer light as dedicated as yours and the ones to come, I'm quite painless spending hundreds of Euros or Dollars for the best of the breed. Of course there are always limitations and it's great you had in mind the modern tendency to triple check prices, but what is worth the money, well, it's worth the money...

  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flamingtaco View Post
    This thread has been a very professional presentation of your product. Thank you.

    I am glad you decided to take on the glare issue road riders must deal with as there are too few options for true cutoff beams in the US. I am looking forward to adding your lights to my stable.

    While I am sure that 1500lm will be plenty for 95% of my road rides, I do have steep, curvy sections of new asphalt where even my 2500lm Gloworm XS leaves a bit on the table. Do you have any plans to offer higher output version in the future? A good beam pattern is almost the whole battle, but there are places where one just needs to send a boatload of photons downrange.

    What was the resolution for KS'ing just the head unit? I thought I saw resolution on that, but did not find it by re-reading the thread.

    Thanks for the great work!
    We ultimately decided to go ahead and offer it as a $125 option on the KS for the lighthead/gopro adapter/bar mount. So far 9 people have taken up on it. I'll be sending out an email blast shortly after as a super-duper reminder that these do not come with a battery pack at all. My co-founder is supremely worried that someone will get it and freak out about it not having a battery, haha.

    Do I want to do a super duper lumen version in the future? Hell yea. It'd be great to do an insanity version, it can be done, and I have some great ideas for that. However it would not be a cheap endeavor, and that's why I ultimately decided to introduce myself to the market with a mid-tier option. Since if I came in with a very expensive light, I think would end up like Trail LED, just always being a boutique niche brand that produced very good stuff, just way too expensive for most riders. Have to have a good spread of price points that make sense to have a viable business, and I want to be here for the long run!

    And thanks for noticing about my efforts regarding the cutoff. It's what I had noticed as well. Pretty decent options in Europe just because it's actually a legal requirement. I think once people start to see just how bright a 1500 lumen cutoff light is for a bike, they'll completely forget about a typical spot setup. To be honest, you could ride all night on the 300-400 lumen setting, it's that well concentrated.

  8. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by fk78 View Post
    Lazer is definitely of the sophisticated type. Just had those simple light bars in mind. Very interesting indeed and giving a hint (besides all the described technical relations) why you opted for magnesium as housing material ;-)

    Concerning the price tag I have to admit, when buying instead of building a light I was always considering expensive ones like Lupine, but then opted to build it myself as it's the same price, but I know what get and am fairly "better". If aquiring a manufacturer light as dedicated as yours and the ones to come, I'm quite painless spending hundreds of Euros or Dollars for the best of the breed. Of course there are always limitations and it's great you had in mind the modern tendency to triple check prices, but what is worth the money, well, it's worth the money...
    Your thoughts on the price point is partially why I really decided to pull the trigger and dive all in on this. I have always had small business ideas and wanted to put my product development experience to use. It wasn't until I really started looking very closely at what the high end lights were made of, which components, and just drop in TIR optics or bowl optics that it made me think that I have a real chance of making a splash in this market. A lot of the expensive options in the US, but none using proper optical design to really take full advantage of the latest chips coming out.

    I appreciate the thoughts! And appreciate the trust that I hope I've developed here. This stuff isn't quite rocket science, but I think it's important for more people to understand how light works, and that's why I'm so open with the development process so that they can make their own informed decision about what lighting is going to work best for them.

    It's an uphill battle fighting all the cheap stuff from overseas with vastly overstated lumens, but I figure if the Europeans can do it, we can eventually get to that point here too. I love seeing lux comparisons and actual beam angle discussions in the euro-based forums and reviews.

  9. #209
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    Not that it really bothers me in the UK, but will you look for STVZO certification?

  10. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldstrath View Post
    Not that it really bothers me in the UK, but will you look for STVZO certification?
    From the KickStarter page: "For our European customers, we have developed the Road Edition to meet and exceed StVZO requirements for bicycle lights."

  11. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    We ultimately decided to go ahead and offer it as a $125 option on the KS for the lighthead/gopro adapter/bar mount. So far 9 people have taken up on it. I'll be sending out an email blast shortly after as a super-duper reminder that these do not come with a battery pack at all. My co-founder is supremely worried that someone will get it and freak out about it not having a battery, haha.

    Do I want to do a super duper lumen version in the future? Hell yea. It'd be great to do an insanity version, it can be done, and I have some great ideas for that. However it would not be a cheap endeavor, and that's why I ultimately decided to introduce myself to the market with a mid-tier option. Since if I came in with a very expensive light, I think would end up like Trail LED, just always being a boutique niche brand that produced very good stuff, just way too expensive for most riders. Have to have a good spread of price points that make sense to have a viable business, and I want to be here for the long run!

    And thanks for noticing about my efforts regarding the cutoff. It's what I had noticed as well. Pretty decent options in Europe just because it's actually a legal requirement. I think once people start to see just how bright a 1500 lumen cutoff light is for a bike, they'll completely forget about a typical spot setup. To be honest, you could ride all night on the 300-400 lumen setting, it's that well concentrated.
    I'll make that 10 shortly, just need another overtime paycheck as I splurged on new winter riding gear this week. Yaaa me! Don't think there will be much to worry about with only 10 possibilities for confusion. I'm impressed you're offering it with numbers that low.

    I don't think you'll need to go insane in cost, my 2500lm XS is pretty damn impressive due to the wide hotspot and mild transition to spill. More efficient utilization of that level of output would be a game changer for the 2500 club.

    I've got Hella 90mm projectors in my SHO with 2100lm H9's, about 2900lm OTF combined. Those lamps on my bike would be insane, with an output only 400lm more than my Gloworm XS.

    I think the high-low you discussed earlier is a good route to take for both a lamp the covers road and trail, and high output. Take your road design, add a second LED in the 1000lm range for the canopy, program the GUI for road and trail modes, that would be a light that ticks a lot of boxes for both road and trail users.
    I will suffer no butt-hurt fools!

  12. #212
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    Awesome project. Lovely to see some solid engineering in the mtb lighting segment.

    My day job involves a lot of colour science, optics and high brightness light for the cinema industry, it's a passion of mine. I can see a lot of hard work and attention to detail has been invested into the project. Well done.

    I cover about 2000km a year at night, all year round down here in Australia. Currently running about 3200 lumens in a huge flood off the bars in about a +/-45 degree flood with no beam cutoff and no optics, just a housing for cutoff at the 45degree edge, plus some 98% efficient Schott Amiran glass to keep the mud out, and about 2000 lumens off the helmet in a 15degree spot. I've found this most pleasing, reflected light from the flood peaks right where you need it for low speed just in front of the front wheel, but doesn't destroy the long range perception when speeds get high, my reduced field of view when focusing further in front when at speed seems to block the brighter reflected light nearer to me. Maybe I'm not the usual end user? I've yet to want for more light hitting 50-60km on fire trail.


    It's taken many interactions to get to this setup.

    Planned future improvements include playing with an rgb setup, I really don't like the spectrum of any two wavelength white leds, regardless of mixed colour temp, be it on the bike or in my workshop above the mill or lathe. I'd like to have a go at obtaining a sunlight spectrum if i can.

    Second development is a control system for intensity based on speed and slope. Would love it to be fully automatic, with a low on road setting that doesn't annoy motorists.

    Good luck with the project! Well done! So many crap lights on the market.

  13. #213
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    Ordered the trail kit. It will be my first non-cheap-china light. I think I'll get the Theia next month, for the helmet.

    Currently running BT40 on the bars and BT21 w/gloworm spots on the helmet

  14. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by mestapho View Post
    From the KickStarter page: "For our European customers, we have developed the Road Edition to meet and exceed StVZO requirements for bicycle lights."
    Saw that, but meeting requirements is not the same as getting certified.

  15. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldstrath View Post
    Saw that, but meeting requirements is not the same as getting certified.
    The plan is to get certified, but in our own self testing both in simulation and in prototype tests, it passes with flying colors. So not saying it's fully certified yet, but it meets and exceeds the requirements.

  16. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldstrath View Post
    Saw that, but meeting requirements is not the same as getting certified.
    Keep in mind that these folks are a startup. I don't know what it costs for testing to get StVZO, but where I used to work in the late 90s we had to get several different products tested for CE certification (a European standard similar to what UL listing means for products sold in the US). That cost around $20k per product back then. Probably 50 to 100% more now. If StVZO is anything similar, I can see Outbound putting that off for the time being.
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  17. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vancbiker View Post
    Keep in mind that these folks are a startup. I don't know what it costs for testing to get StVZO, but where I used to work in the late 90s we had to get several different products tested for CE certification (a European standard similar to what UL listing means for products sold in the US). That cost around $20k per product back then. Probably 50 to 100% more now. If StVZO is anything similar, I can see Outbound putting that off for the time being.
    I agree. I'm not criticising, and certainly not doubting the quality of the light, nor its compliance. Simply that for people I know in Germany, France and similar markets who care enough to look for road specific lights, the K mark matters, and having it will make selling into those markets much easier.

  18. #218
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    I would love to see some beam comparisons, preferably before Dec 22, with the only real alternative I have seen out there, the Lupine SL A. And, as a bonus, comparisons with e g B&M Ixon IQ Premium and similar lamps that people are running today.

  19. #219
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    Just poking my head in here before the Dec22 deadline to check if there are any updated beamshots and etc. for the road version. Even though it seems that a lot of light is being thrown far down the road in front, I sure hope (hint hint) that there is a moderate amount of light thrown to the sides a la fog lights.

  20. #220
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    Idea!

    Quote Originally Posted by oldstrath View Post
    I agree. I'm not criticising, and certainly not doubting the quality of the light, nor its compliance. Simply that for people I know in Germany, France and similar markets who care enough to look for road specific lights, the K mark matters, and having it will make selling into those markets much easier.
    Average buyers in germany care first for money, then for the amount of light and at least they are concerned with regulations.
    People are not that different, but they know more about certified lights. Because there are more known options.
    Also all high end StVZO light manufacturers (Lupine, Supernova) are located in germany and many of the non high end manufacturers too (Trelock, B&M, Büchel, Sigma, Out-Led, Osram, SON).

  21. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by angerdan View Post
    Average buyers in germany care first for money...
    Well, I will not disagree that I also have an eye on costs. But considering my buying mentality I'd assume not everybody is money-all-object minded...

  22. #222
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    As for updated beam patterns, not much over what I had posted earlier. Our lens supplier has not pulled through as quickly as I hoped. We were planning on having at least 20 samples to send out during the KS to influencers and reviewers to help get more third party thoughts out there.

    That combined with the retooling of the trail version means that we won't have the latest updated shots before the KS ends. However our simulations have been very accurate so far, and what is presented on the KS is what we will deliver without a doubt.

    After the KS ends we will open up pre-ordering on our website.

    I think RAKC can confirm about the amount light being thrown to the side on both the road and trail versions, as he has seen what it is like in person which is far easier to evaluate than through pictures.

  23. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    We ultimately decided to go ahead and offer it as a $125 option on the KS for the lighthead/gopro adapter/bar mount. So far 9 people have taken up on it. I'll be sending out an email blast shortly after as a super-duper reminder that these do not come with a battery pack at all. My co-founder is supremely worried that someone will get it and freak out about it not having a battery, haha.
    Not to throw another wrench into the mix... I notice the list of items for the light head only does not mention the gopro adaptor. That's going to be an essential part for me, and anyone that wants to mount these on the helmet. Was this left out by mistake, and if not, how do we acquire the gopro adaptor when it's not included?
    I will suffer no butt-hurt fools!

  24. #224
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    It's in your quote, Outbound posted in post 207 that the $125 KS lighthead only option does include the GoPro adapter.
    GoPro adapters for bike lights http://www.pacifier.com/~kevinb/index.html

  25. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vancbiker View Post
    Outbound posted in post 207 that the $125 KS lighthead only does include the GoPro adapter.
    Correct, will include the bar mount and the gopro adapter.

  26. #226
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    Outbound these are very nice, well thought lights!
    The way you use the wind to cool the housing and the kind of reflector you designed is what a lot of do-it-yourself builders probably always dreamed of - I did anyway!
    Here are my thoughts: 1500 lumens must be by far enough for the road version! I would have liked some (yellow) light to be seen from the side for the road version. Next challenge for you would of course be to offer a version of you light that works with a dynamo.
    For the trail version: Come on - your light weighs about 100 g and is so well cooled, I bet it would not have any problems with double the heat! I don't know the LEDs you are going to use, but if they are similar to the ones from cree (like the new XD16) then you can double the max recommended power pushed through them!
    For the helmet lamp to come: for me it has to be very light (Lupino Piko is 55g, 1800 lumens) that's to beat.

  27. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrradlos View Post
    Outbound these are very nice, well thought lights!
    The way you use the wind to cool the housing and the kind of reflector you designed is what a lot of do-it-yourself builders probably always dreamed of - I did anyway!
    Here are my thoughts: 1500 lumens must be by far enough for the road version! I would have liked some (yellow) light to be seen from the side for the road version. Next challenge for you would of course be to offer a version of you light that works with a dynamo.
    For the trail version: Come on - your light weighs about 100 g and is so well cooled, I bet it would not have any problems with double the heat! I don't know the LEDs you are going to use, but if they are similar to the ones from cree (like the new XD16) then you can double the max recommended power pushed through them!
    For the helmet lamp to come: for me it has to be very light (Lupino Piko is 55g, 1800 lumens) that's to beat.
    Thanks for the comments! All ideas are gladly welcomed once we start developing the next light after delivery of the Focal Series.

    Regarding the lumens, we will see what we can push, that's all part of the testing, just running off the datasheets at the moment.

    Far better to underpromise and over-deliver I believe. However there is also some tradeoffs. More lumens doesn't always mean that you'll see that much better, but it'll negatively affect the battery life. If there is an almost imperciveable difference between 1800-2000 lumens vs 1500 due to the huge field of vision, but you lose 45-60 minutes of battery life... is it really worth it? All tradeoffs that we'll be factoring in as we continue testing and refining the software.

  28. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrradlos View Post
    ............or the helmet lamp to come: for me it has to be very light (Lupino Piko is 55g, 1800 lumens) that's to beat.
    With a optimal reflector, I'd guess that 1000-1200 lumen light would provide a more usable beam than a Piko and it's optic based symmetric circular beam.
    GoPro adapters for bike lights http://www.pacifier.com/~kevinb/index.html

  29. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vancbiker View Post
    With a optimal reflector, I'd guess that 1000-1200 lumen light would provide a more usable beam than a Piko and it's optic based symmetric circular beam.
    The challenge with a helmet light with an internal battery is indeed going to be the reflector size. However I got some tricks up my sleeve regarding that.

    -------------

    As for Kickstarter stuff, we are 3 days away from completing! Thursday night around 7:30 CST we'll be doing a live Q&A and tech breakdown of the light on kickstarter live. Good chance to meet us (myself and Kyle, ZenkiS14) and find out more about the lights. Feel free to submit any questions you want us to answer, and subscribe to tune in when we go live!

    https://live.kickstarter.com/broadcast/22209/overview

  30. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    The challenge with a helmet light with an internal battery is indeed going to be the reflector size. However I got some tricks up my sleeve regarding that.
    Personally, a helmet light with an internal battery would be a miss. Unless you have something really tricky up your sleeve, it would be too heavy for high output, and long runtime.

    Things it should be IMHO.

    Small,
    lightweight,
    able to be mounted low and forward on the helmet,
    wireless remote or helmet mounted remote,
    power cable options for jersey/jacket/camelback battery placement or back of helmet battery placement,
    2 cell and 4 cell options.
    GoPro adapters for bike lights http://www.pacifier.com/~kevinb/index.html

  31. #231
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    Problem I see with trying to go insanely tiny and get bigger lumens there is always trade offs. Run hot and lack of run time are the 2 that stand out most. Makes for a "limit". Pushing 1800 lumens on a 2 cell battery pack (or 900+ on a single self contained), useable run time is cut down/lack of constant actual output.

    Not a problem for those that actually use lower modes or do shorter rides/carry spare batteries. Heat is the big one that gets my attention on small lights. Either keep stepping down or get hot as hell prior to stepping down.

    With rapidly advancing LED tech though, its becoming less and less of a problem. Simply need battery tech to catch up so more constant voltage is maintained. Lithium batteries having voltages so close to a lights requirements is keeping a choke chain on what bike lights and flash lights can do.

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    So just to be sure before ordering, the DC5521 is as I understand it the "normal" old connector used on all these chinese lights and battery packs available from gearbest et al? And those 7.4V 2/4/6/8-cell 18650-packs would work with the light head?

  33. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rolekl View Post
    So just to be sure before ordering, the DC5521 is as I understand it the "normal" old connector used on all these chinese lights and battery packs available from gearbest et al? And those 7.4V 2/4/6/8-cell 18650-packs would work with the light head?
    That is correct. HOWEVER I cannot guarantee it will have the waterproof feature that the supplied battery pack would provide, since I have no way of knowing exactly which style connector was used, as there are several DC5521 versions. Such as the screw together, the snap together, or just no connection at all, and relying on friction to hold it together.

  34. #234
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    Mine are all the snap together version. What's the one on the lamp?

  35. #235
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    Its not just chinese lamps, actually a fair majority of mid range lights from magicshine to gloworm use them. Not a bad design but like anything, you pay for quality, even on connectors.

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  36. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    Correct, will include the bar mount and the gopro adapter.
    Thanks for the confirmation. Put in my pledge, you now have 12 signed up for lighthead only. Looks like you've got a decent last minute run going on.

    Now, how do you get another sale from me?

    1) Programmable level for each power setting.
    2) Two level mode (an important feature for road)
    3) Remote switch
    3) Higher output offering (some of us compete with HID/LED automotive headlamps and LED parking lot lamps)
    4) 3 second, short pulse strobe for daytime, accessible only via a special mode. so that snot doesn't interrupt a night ride, ever.

    Question: Do you have a thermal simulation for the lamp on the go-pro mount? I suspect not having the 'scoop' isn't a significant impact on thermal transfer... there should be plenty of turbulence without it.

    Also, the simulation indicates almost no heat coming from the top of the unit. Is the LED attached to the lower part of the housing? It the upper finned piece insulated from the lower rear finned piece?
    I will suffer no butt-hurt fools!

  37. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flamingtaco View Post
    Thanks for the confirmation. Put in my pledge, you now have 12 signed up for lighthead only. Looks like you've got a decent last minute run going on.

    Now, how do you get another sale from me?

    1) Programmable level for each power setting.
    2) Two level mode (an important feature for road)
    3) Remote switch
    3) Higher output offering (some of us compete with HID/LED automotive headlamps and LED parking lot lamps)
    4) 3 second, short pulse strobe for daytime, accessible only via a special mode. so that snot doesn't interrupt a night ride, ever.

    Question: Do you have a thermal simulation for the lamp on the go-pro mount? I suspect not having the 'scoop' isn't a significant impact on thermal transfer... there should be plenty of turbulence without it.

    Also, the simulation indicates almost no heat coming from the top of the unit. Is the LED attached to the lower part of the housing? It the upper finned piece insulated from the lower rear finned piece?
    Without the scoop, it was a simulated 10-20*F drop, but that's also assuming it's sitting in free air, not against a helmet or something similar.

    There is a lot of heat coming off the top, however what the simulation was showing was lines coming from a certain section around the lower portion of the light. Wanted to show off what the air scoop was doing in terms of pushing air up and into the deep fins. When in motion the heat is wicked away so quickly from the top because it is getting hit head on that it's hard to see in simulation plots that look interesting.

    Regarding your other points:
    1. Potentially in the future for sure
    2. Guessing you mean high/low beam?
    3. Once we have a helmet light developed, that's when I want to introduce a remote switch to control an ecosystem rather than simply moving the button for a single light 15" to the left or the right.
    4. There will be a pulse/strobe for DRL stuff that is only accesible from when the light is off. Plan is that from the OFF state, have to triple tap the light to enter a DRL/flashing mode. No way did I want flashing to be selected while cycling through. HATE that.

  38. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rolekl View Post
    Mine are all the snap together version. What's the one on the lamp?
    It's the snap together version. So may work out. I just can't guarantee it.

  39. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    Without the scoop, it was a simulated 10-20*F drop, but that's also assuming it's sitting in free air, not against a helmet or something similar.


    .
    FYI, was doing a fan cooled case temp. test on a BT21 (pictured) a couple of yrs. ago and decided to move the fan from the front of the light to the rear where it would blow directly over the cooling fins behind the emitters. Resulted in a similar approx. 20 degree drop in case temp.
    Mole

    Outbound Lighting Focal Series  ---- Discussion -----005.jpg

  40. #240
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    I second the suggestion for a dynamo version.

  41. #241
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    You guys do realize a dynamo cant produce near the wattage required for a light like this. Somewhere around half or less depending on the hub and thats at fairly decent speeds.

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  42. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    The challenge with a helmet light with an internal battery is indeed going to be the reflector size. However I got some tricks up my sleeve regarding that.
    For me a helmet light has to be lighter than 50g - I ended up putting the single battery of this little helmet light in my backpack. By the way it is putting out more than 2000 lumens on high, but don't use that setting for long. High settings are only for fast downhill singletracks, which usually dont't take more than 10 minutes for me...

    Dynamo lights are quiet tricky, you have to make use of all the voltage you get ...

  43. #243
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    Idea!

    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    2. Guessing you mean high/low beam?
    I'm sure with "two levels" he means two brightness levels to switch between directly.
    Important feature for Road use, like to switch between daytime running lamp and distance light on cars.

  44. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAKC Ind View Post
    You guys do realize a dynamo cant produce near the wattage required for a light like this. Somewhere around half or less depending on the hub and thats at fairly decent speeds.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
    no kidding. when you talk dynamo, now you are talking human power to electric power, and reality will set in pretty quick. high power led's will make you wish you had those Olympic sprinter quads, lungs, and heart you've always wanted. dynamo is for low power operation. or you will get wrecked trying to power it
    "Put your seatbelt back on or get out and sit in the middle of that circle of death." - Johnny Scoot

  45. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    no kidding. when you talk dynamo, now you are talking human power to electric power, and reality will set in pretty quick. high power led's will make you wish you had those Olympic sprinter quads, lungs, and heart you've always wanted. dynamo is for low power operation. or you will get wrecked trying to power it
    What about a built in speaker that just yells "GIT GOOD! GIT GOODDDD" if voltage starts dropping.

  46. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    What about a built in speaker that just yells "GIT GOOD! GIT GOODDDD" if voltage starts dropping.
    Best idea in this post yet! lol

  47. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    Without the scoop, it was a simulated 10-20*F drop, but that's also assuming it's sitting in free air, not against a helmet or something similar..
    Was there a thermal transfer loss due to the bar inhibiting air flow?

    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    There is a lot of heat coming off the top, however what the simulation was showing was lines coming from a certain section around the lower portion of the light. Wanted to show off what the air scoop was doing in terms of pushing air up and into the deep fins. When in motion the heat is wicked away so quickly from the top because it is getting hit head on that it's hard to see in simulation plots that look interesting.


    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    2. Guessing you mean high/low beam?
    Not if that's the sole output variance.

    It's always a balancing act between battery life and adequate lighting for any condition, we will always need multiple power settings. An ideal dipped beam should employ a high and low power setting alternated with a single short press, and include a very low (moonbeam) setting via a single long press. The light should return to where is was in high/low mode with a single short press, or shut off if the long press is held very long (3-4s). Programmable level for the high/low power settings. A second mode that permits walking the output up and down 10% at a time in either direction seems to work well on the trail, where we tend to set and forget at the trailhead, but at time needs to make slight adjustments during the ride.

    I don't feel a traditional passenger vehicle style high beam pattern will be as useful for the lower speeds of bikes. In a passenger vehicle we call on the high beam to see much further down the road during much higher speeds, and ignore much of what the dipped beam illuminates. On a bike, we must retain close visibility to avoid objects that powered cages simply roll over (like the 3x5 pothole that I never spot in my truck due to the road surface being extensively cracked, but which can toss me from the bike), and don't need to extend our vision like we do in a vehicle that's can hit 80mph.

    I think a better application would be a 'multi-use' model that employs a road cutoff beam with a 'high beam' that fills in what is missing from the trail model. I'm betting this can be done while also extending the vision a bit. One lamp to rule them all! Compromises be damned.

    Whatever the outcome, if we end up with a high/low beam unit of any type, having separate programmable levels for each output setting is important. If the roadie that wants to preserve their night vision when illuminating the high beam, the downhiller that wants a blast of light from high beam regardless of the dipped beam setting, and the commuter that wants a balanced output from both beams can use the same lamp, I think you will be hitting some important checkboxes for a lot of users.
    I will suffer no butt-hurt fools!

  48. #248
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    Just ordered the road version: looking forward to an optimised cut off beam similar to the Philips Saferide 80 but updated and improved and, of course, with much superior run time.

    Roll on March 2018.

  49. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flamingtaco View Post
    Was there a thermal transfer loss due to the bar inhibiting air flow?





    Not if that's the sole output variance.

    It's always a balancing act between battery life and adequate lighting for any condition, we will always need multiple power settings. An ideal dipped beam should employ a high and low power setting alternated with a single short press, and include a very low (moonbeam) setting via a single long press. The light should return to where is was in high/low mode with a single short press, or shut off if the long press is held very long (3-4s). Programmable level for the high/low power settings. A second mode that permits walking the output up and down 10% at a time in either direction seems to work well on the trail, where we tend to set and forget at the trailhead, but at time needs to make slight adjustments during the ride.

    I don't feel a traditional passenger vehicle style high beam pattern will be as useful for the lower speeds of bikes. In a passenger vehicle we call on the high beam to see much further down the road during much higher speeds, and ignore much of what the dipped beam illuminates. On a bike, we must retain close visibility to avoid objects that powered cages simply roll over (like the 3x5 pothole that I never spot in my truck due to the road surface being extensively cracked, but which can toss me from the bike), and don't need to extend our vision like we do in a vehicle that's can hit 80mph.

    I think a better application would be a 'multi-use' model that employs a road cutoff beam with a 'high beam' that fills in what is missing from the trail model. I'm betting this can be done while also extending the vision a bit. One lamp to rule them all! Compromises be damned.

    Whatever the outcome, if we end up with a high/low beam unit of any type, having separate programmable levels for each output setting is important. If the roadie that wants to preserve their night vision when illuminating the high beam, the downhiller that wants a blast of light from high beam regardless of the dipped beam setting, and the commuter that wants a balanced output from both beams can use the same lamp, I think you will be hitting some important checkboxes for a lot of users.
    I think when we say "high beam" in the bike sense, not literally meaning a high beam like a car where the shutter is dropped or another bulb comes on and creates an entirely different pattern that takes away the width and foreground. I wouldn't be copying the high beam pattern from FMVS108 verbatim. There is far more foreground in these lights then there are on a typical vehicle headlight.

  50. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by MOBH View Post
    Just ordered the road version: looking forward to an optimised cut off beam similar to the Philips Saferide 80 but updated and improved and, of course, with much superior run time.

    Roll on March 2018.
    Thanks! I know you'll love it, especially the road version compared to the ole SafeRide. That light was actually one of the few where I was impressed that someone else "got it" but they still had pretty small reflectors given the actual size of the unit. Seemed like a lot of scattering too in photos I saw.

  51. #251
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    Okay guys, we are nearing the last 24 hours! We are going to be doing a live Q&A session and showing off the technical aspects of the light starting around 7:30pm CST. Feel free to post some questions, or tune in and we'll try our best to answer as many. This is my chance to explain things without having to just type words out, haha.

    https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...sting-bike-lig

  52. #252
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    Thanks for the Q&A. Can’t wait to try the light!

  53. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by mestapho View Post
    Thanks for the Q&A. Can’t wait to try the light!
    Thank you! I honestly didn't think it'd go on that long. I tend to ramble a bit when it comes to talking lighting. I think RAKC can also attest to that, haha. I think we stood around my truck for the better part of an hour.

  54. #254
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    I like the look of the light case (shown on the live feed) - good idea for protecting the lights.

  55. #255
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    In a few hours I'm going to watch the replay. Thanks for making that available.

    One super stupid question about the whole KS thing... Why t-shirts ONLY for people who don't buy lights? LOL

  56. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    Thank you! I honestly didn't think it'd go on that long. I tend to ramble a bit when it comes to talking lighting. I think RAKC can also attest to that, haha. I think we stood around my truck for the better part of an hour.
    I know we both got back to our wives A LOT later than we told them LOL.

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  57. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wish I Were Riding View Post
    In a few hours I'm going to watch the replay. Thanks for making that available.

    One super stupid question about the whole KS thing... Why t-shirts ONLY for people who don't buy lights? LOL
    If you want to add a t-shirt just add $30 to your pledge and I'll make a note of it.

  58. #258
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    Outbound Lighting Focal Series  ---- Discussion -----25659610_10100250100210183_6547326493143626052_n.jpg

    We did it guys! Smashed our goal of $15,000 and nearly raised $30,000 in the process.

    This is the update I posted for our backers.

    Woohoo! Nearly 200% of our original goal of $15,000! But now the real fun part starts. We will be keeping everyone informed of our progress. Starting right now, it will be 2 weeks or so before we receive the funds from Kickstarter, and then we can start making first payments to our suppliers.

    Some of the longer lead items that will be paid for first include the battery packs and the cases, because those are very large items that will spend a 3 week journey on a cargo ship before being loaded on a truck to head to St. Louis.

    All of our other suppliers have been notified that we are moving ahead with the project and are ready to start the large scale production. Because we have paid for the first half of the production tooling on almost all our parts, we will not anticipating any delays with those. The only one that we are still working out is the lens tooling itself. Although we have identified a great supplier that is ready to work fast to make our deadline.

    We of course will be keeping everyone updated on progress, and when parts start arriving! We will be ordering 500 units of everything, so as soon as all the parts are in stock it should only be a day or two of work to create the 150+ lights that all of you have pledged.

    Thank you again so much for your faith in us, and we promise we will be delivering one of the best lights you will experience!

    Thank you,

    Matthew
    ---------------------------

    We will be opening the website for pre-orders after Xmas at a 15% discount, and of course will be keeping you guys up to date on all the production status and more testing/validating we do.

    Merry Christmas and happy holidays!

  59. #259
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    Congratulations! I'm not the one of the backers, but I've found your project very interesting and gladly read all this stuff. Keep good work, one of the best project we have seen here at MTBR, imho.

  60. #260
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    Hello Outbound! Very interesting indeed!

    Is there a site with some crucial data facts? (this thread is way too long, I only skimmed thru it).

    I mean I don't understand your "wall shot" colored images. What's max, min, is colormap log/linear? (I'd also include the colorbar, btw). What was lumen output (and may be, electrical wattage) for the shot? Things like this -- fully presented. If there's such a site - could you give a link please (and include it in OP). If no, please, consider creating it.

    You probably know about Olaf Schultz database? (it's especially known among German bikers) möglichst umfassende Auswertung von Scheinwerfern . May be use his colormap (and other conventions) for easier comparison of wall shots?

    Thank you.

  61. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by abvgdee View Post
    Hello Outbound! Very interesting indeed!

    Is there a site with some crucial data facts? (this thread is way too long, I only skimmed thru it).

    I mean I don't understand your "wall shot" colored images. What's max, min, is colormap log/linear? (I'd also include the colorbar, btw). What was lumen output (and may be, electrical wattage) for the shot? Things like this -- fully presented. If there's such a site - could you give a link please (and include it in OP). If no, please, consider creating it.

    You probably know about Olaf Schultz database? (it's especially known among German bikers) möglichst umfassende Auswertung von Scheinwerfern . May be use his colormap (and other conventions) for easier comparison of wall shots?

    Thank you.
    Most of the crucial facts are buried in here, but I am currently building out our actual website that will host a fair amount of the information. I hired an outside company to develop it, and now I am going back through and updating pictures, text, information, etc. So please excuse the mess and sometimes messy language if you are checking it out as of right now, haha.

    www.outboundlighting.com

    Regarding the wall shots, it's a mix of log and linear, mostly because OPTIS tends to work in linear and lucidshape works with log typically. I prefer log since that actually mimics more of what the human eye sees.

    However because these are simply simulations, I don't like to post the numbers as many people will take it and run with it thinking that's the true real-world output. Optics are a tricky thing, especially manufacturing, and I don't like to present hard numbers like min/max until we have tested real-world parts and done real world measurements. The simulated world is great for design, not always great for accurate measurement.

    This is especially true as the product develops, I will probably have to go back and edit the main post once we are closer to release because some of the information will be outdated.

  62. #262
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    I just did a quick look at the site. Why no alternate views of the light heads themselves? What is the black thing on the light in those photos? Thanks.

  63. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wish I Were Riding View Post
    I just did a quick look at the site. Why no alternate views of the light heads themselves? What is the black thing on the light in those photos? Thanks.
    All still very much a work in progress. Will be adding more photos and details as I get them uploaded. The black thing I think you are referring to is the bar mount strap.

  64. #264
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    Oh wow, good to know. Hate to say it, but it makes them considerably less sleek looking like that. I'm looking forward to getting mine.

  65. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wish I Were Riding View Post
    Oh wow, good to know. Hate to say it, but it makes them considerably less sleek looking like that. I'm looking forward to getting mine.
    Probably doesn't help those pictures were taken on a 25mm piece of round stock, haha.

    https://www.instagram.com/p/Bb-B20il...tboundlighting

    There are a bunch of pictures of the products mounted up on a typical bike bar on our instagram page.

  66. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wish I Were Riding View Post
    .....Hate to say it, but it makes them considerably less sleek looking like that.
    Use it with the GoPro mounting feature and you will get the sleek look.
    GoPro adapters for bike lights http://www.pacifier.com/~kevinb/index.html

  67. #267
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    How is the "carpet of light" affected when head mounted? I won't be bar mounting because I almost never ride in the dark. When it's dark where I live, I cross country ski and run, roughly at about mountain bike speeds, at least at times.

    I use a Yinding (after my Gemini Duo died) on a headstrap, and am generally satisfied, but would like to see what a better beam pattern would do. I'd be interested in a trail beam comparison between your trail light and a Yinding or Gemini Duo when used on the head.

    The 100g weight of your lighthead is maybe 30 g heavier than the Duo or Yinding, but probably still fine for headmount use when running with a decent headstrap, and possibly worth the weight compromise if the beam quality is much superior. I use the Yinding/Duo with a 2-cell battery mounted on the back of the headstrap, though I have also used extension cables to put the battery in a pocket in the past (for heavier 4-cells or to keep the battery warm).

  68. #268
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    The answer is quite simple actually.

    There is actually many lights including many flashlights that have very similar/same beam pattern as the duo/yinding. All use 20mm round optic. You have slight variations but comes down to 3 beam types. Spot (for throw to see at a distance), elliptical spot (wide angle without wasting light spread vertically) or flood (no real spot, cant see very far but lights up a big area).

    A spot optic can of course have more or less spill (light spread outside of the focused beam) depending on optic design.

    Head or bar mounted does not change this at all. The change is in the angle in which the beam is pointed. You determine final position by how much you tilt the light.

    Outbound has basically designed it to where spill is all but eliminated including upwards. Keeping light forward and downward at a controlled width as well.

    Being up on your head the difference would be the exact same as any other light, you end up leaving it pointed straight to slightly down depending on how much light you want right in front of you. Play around with your light waste level then head level and see how shadows and details look different. Same effect with Outbound.

    One major point is elevation changes. Where a gain if enough will block the beam at waste level, that same elevation gain that is just enough to block a light on the bars, head mounted it would allow you to see over it.


    TL;DR

    Nothing else is going to change. Throw, beam width and pattern all remain the exact same. Just perspective changes. Like looking through the trail on your knees versus standing. Your eyes can see the same things depending on what is blocking your view if anything.

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  69. #269
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    That doesn't tell me anything I don't already know. Matt/Outbound was recommending bar mount because head/helmet mounting might affect the "carpet of light" that evenly lights the ground from the foreground to the usable distance of the light. Meaning that if mounted higher up, the downward light or spill up close that lights your foreground is weaker.

    That foreground light is important, so I'm interested in what his light actually looks like when head mounted to see if that foreground lighting is still acceptable compared to the standard optic in the Duo/Yinding. I obviously don't want to have to angle the light down too much and burn a hole in the ground and my eyes.

  70. #270
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    It would be more than acceptable.

    Trying to help as basically over thinking it. A slight downward tilt would take care of it if any tilt was need. No way would you need to "burn a hole". These have far more foreground light that a dual emitter MTB light by far.

    If you matched angles between this and a yinding, you would have more foreground light, not less. If your after more foreground light directly where your head is pointing as well as light out ahead of you, this would make your day. I have demoed these (I know Matt personally) and I have 2 Yindings and had a Duo (sold it to a friend a while back). My son uses my black yinding.

    Not sure if Matt has one of them, too bad you didnt ask this a couple days ago. I was in St Louis and had lights with me, could have taken pics.

    But in the next couple weeks, good luck getting anyone to stand outside to take pics, ITS DAMN COLD HERE AND DOWN WHERE HE IS. I couldnt get him out for a ride (I got a couple before the cold front gave us sub zero temps there and now -18 here at home)

    But what your after for your purpose, more foreground light without pointing at the ground, IMHO this is for you.

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  71. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by xcandrew View Post
    How is the "carpet of light" affected when head mounted? I won't be bar mounting because I almost never ride in the dark. When it's dark where I live, I cross country ski and run, roughly at about mountain bike speeds, at least at times.

    I use a Yinding (after my Gemini Duo died) on a headstrap, and am generally satisfied, but would like to see what a better beam pattern would do. I'd be interested in a trail beam comparison between your trail light and a Yinding or Gemini Duo when used on the head....
    My thoughts; Assuming you are thinking of buying the mountain bike version; I would think it would work. Riding in snow you don't need a lot of light directly aimed in front of you. With the lamp mounted on the head I'm sure it will change the dynamic of the beam pattern. With that in mind you can't really know how it will look ( head mounted in snow ) until you actual try one out. Whether this lamp will improve how well you can see in the snow while skiing is anyone's guess.

  72. #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by xcandrew View Post
    That doesn't tell me anything I don't already know. Matt/Outbound was recommending bar mount because head/helmet mounting might affect the "carpet of light" that evenly lights the ground from the foreground to the usable distance of the light. Meaning that if mounted higher up, the downward light or spill up close that lights your foreground is weaker.

    That foreground light is important, so I'm interested in what his light actually looks like when head mounted to see if that foreground lighting is still acceptable compared to the standard optic in the Duo/Yinding. I obviously don't want to have to angle the light down too much and burn a hole in the ground and my eyes.
    I have been at least walking around in the backyard with the trail version up above my head as RAKC said, too effin' cold for me to get on a bike, and I've found it pretty awesome actually. The latest reflectors show up Thursday, and will try and get some shots. The only downside I'd find with a helmet mounted is similar to any other light. In dusty/foggy conditions it's going to be tough to see.

    However it did get me excited for a bar mount of the trail combined with a helmet mount trail, would be the best light setup I've ever experienced.

    Only pics I'll be able to really get once it gets warmer are wall shots or backyard pictures since once the trails thaw here after a deep freeze, they get un-rideable and can easily ruin them. I don't wanna be "that guy".

  73. #273
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post

    ...However it did get me excited for a bar mount of the trail combined with a helmet mount trail, would be the best light setup I've ever experienced...
    Interesting idea. In keeping with your last statement; What was the best light setup for Mountain biking that you've ever used ? ( not included yours of course )

    Anyway, looking forward to the final versions. I know you've already been told this by others but for mountain biking at night there is heavy bias on this forum for using NW emitters. My advise is to offer the MTB version with a good 4700-5000K neutral emitter array. If not possible this year then perhaps next year.

  74. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do View Post
    Interesting idea. In keeping with your last statement; What was the best light setup for Mountain biking that you've ever used ? ( not included yours of course )

    Anyway, looking forward to the final versions. I know you've already been told this by others but for mountain biking at night there is heavy bias on this forum for using NW emitters. My advise is to offer the MTB version with a good 4700-5000K neutral emitter array. If not possible this year then perhaps next year.
    Seca 2500 Race is what forced me to go back to the drawing board and beat that. Excellent smooth wide beam of light that cleanly created a super wide FOV. Proved to me what I had theorized, that didn't need more peak distance to feel more comfortable riding on a trail, even on the super fast descents, more width (talking a LOT more than a typical spot pattern) created a much more enjoyable riding session. Decreasing the contrast ratio that your eye has to deal with makes a HUGE difference.

    However would the Seca be great for the road? Where you have a lot of ambient light from both cars, streetlights, and even the sky? Nope. For the road you definitely want a much stronger punch to overcome the ambient. But deep in the woods where most MTB'ing is happening? You really don't need distance as much as one thinks they do when comparing spot beam patterns.

    Regarding the color temperature. Until LED manufactures can make warmer tints in the package sizes I am using, will be stuck with 5000k-ish emitters. We are using the warmest Altilon chips available, which ranges between 5100-5500K.

  75. #275
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    Regarding the color temperature. Until LED manufactures can make warmer tints in the package sizes I am using, will be stuck with 5000k-ish emitters. We are using the warmest Altilon chips available, which ranges between 5100-5500K.
    How does this tint range match the C&B Seen 1900 light you got a while back? While I'm interested in hearing how your using a Trail version of you light helmet mounted for the desert trails I ride lots of throw is useful and have been considering using the C&B Seen 1900 helmet mounted (since it's tint is in-between most of my cool white and neutral white lights) with the Outbound trail on the bars.
    Mole

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    Why's the batter cable put on the right side of the lighthead?
    Will there be a future version with centered cable?

  77. #277
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    Quote Originally Posted by angerdan View Post
    Why's the batter cable put on the right side of the lighthead?
    Will there be a future version with centered cable?
    It was there because of the space needed to create an effective thermal transfer path from the LED to the lower casting, I went with several different variations during the initial designs, and ended up finding that doing a wire design similar to NiteRider and L&M did actually make more sense.

    If it proves to be an issue in the future, of course we'll fix it in upcoming versions. But for now function takes over form.

  78. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRMOLE View Post
    How does this tint range match the C&B Seen 1900 light you got a while back? While I'm interested in hearing how your using a Trail version of you light helmet mounted for the desert trails I ride lots of throw is useful and have been considering using the C&B Seen 1900 helmet mounted (since it's tint is in-between most of my cool white and neutral white lights) with the Outbound trail on the bars.
    Mole
    Ask and you shall receive!

    Outbound Lighting Focal Series  ---- Discussion -----dsc_0011.jpg

    Top is the C&B Seen 1900, bottom is the prototype Focal Trail. Keep in mind that the Focal Trail still doesn't have the lens that'll smooth things out, but it gives a good representation of the color temperature. Both taken at the same time so the white balance is identical. Can see why I am a fan of the color temperature provided by the Lumiled chips.

  79. #279
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    Ask and you shall receive!

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Top is the C&B Seen 1900, bottom is the prototype Focal Trail. Keep in mind that the Focal Trail still doesn't have the lens that'll smooth things out, but it gives a good representation of the color temperature. Both taken at the same time so the white balance is identical. Can see why I am a fan of the color temperature provided by the Lumiled chips.
    Thanks!! Also gives me a point of reference for the trails beam width. The Kit I ordered has both the trail and road lightheads so I'll probably try the road out as a helmet option along with the C&B Seen.
    Mole

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    Quote Originally Posted by MRMOLE View Post
    Thanks!! Also gives me a point of reference for the trails beam width. The Kit I ordered has both the trail and road lightheads so I'll probably try the road out as a helmet option along with the C&B Seen.
    Mole
    Keep in mind, that with the lens, it'll get even a bit wider. This is the simulation right now. The top is without the lens, and what you are seeing in the photo above. The bottom is with it. It'll soften up the edges and make it a more seamless riding environment.

    Outbound Lighting Focal Series  ---- Discussion -----26551424_10100254304639473_1981018263_n.png

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    So as I alluded to in the previous post, we got our updated trail reflector in (third revision) and we have pretty much nailed it now. I was extemely hesitant to share beam pattern and wall shots during the earlier phases because I knew they were not living up to what I had in mind, and knew we could achieve. Gotta put our best foot forward when launching a new product and a new company!

    So this is the shot of version 2 right off my iPhone. As you can see it's already vastly different than a typical spot pattern, however there were dark holes in the middle of the field of vision . Something already commonly experienced with a spot or "wide" lens, however the light carpet in front means that your eye notices the dark spots far more than with a typical spot beam pattern. If the light carpet was not there, you'd probably think it's a pretty solid wide beam pattern that already is pretty good in terms of how smooth and wide it is.

    Outbound Lighting Focal Series  ---- Discussion -----ol001.jpg

    Now enter the latest revision, which simply modified about 15mm x 5mm near the top of the optic. Very hard to photograph the reflector changes due to the reflectivity, but I think you'll notice it in person when you take a really close look at the reflector. What this does is shift about 15% of the light downwards to fill in those holes, and create that incredibly smooth even field of illumination I was shooting for. Blending the light carpet up front with the main beam pattern almost seamlessly. In person and in motion it really is something else. Super pumped for you guys to really check it out.

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    These are not great shots. Right off my phone, and not in the exact same location. It was literally 0 degrees outside, and I was just excited to get the new reflectors in and see it working in action. Ran out to the backyard, grabbed a shot of the old reflector, ran back inside, changed out reflectors and got the updated shot.

    What is next? New supplier to take over the silicone lens. First supplier did not meet my expectations and we were able to recover some money, but that was a dud. Another reason why we weren't able to get lights out to influencers and some third party reviewers during the kickstarter. We have used the kickstarter money to help pay for the new tooling and they are working in overdrive to get us updated parts as soon as possible. It tripled my unit cost on the lens going with these guys, but the quality should be top notch. It's a cost we can absorb for something that is so critical.

    The new lens will soften up the edges of the illumination field, while adding about another 15* of width for both the road and trail versions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    The new lens will soften up the edges of the illumination field, while adding about another 15* of width for both the road and trail versions.
    That is excellent news. Looking forward to further updates.

  83. #283
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    That beam shot looks great. Can’t wait to get this in my hands

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    Gotta say, the new beam pattern is simply dialed! Light works great for indoor riding too








  85. #285
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    Alrightyyyyy, we got the pre-orders going now. Right now will be 15% off until we start shipping them in 2 months!

    http://www.outboundlighting.com/store/

    Still tweaking the website quite a lot day by day. Who knew this stuff took so much work?!

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    Hello,
    Will you also offer the lighthead only versions with the 15% discount?
    What about a (wireless) remote? Something you will offer on a future version?
    Thanks

  87. #287
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    Quote Originally Posted by eTrex_FSR View Post
    Hello,
    Will you also offer the lighthead only versions with the 15% discount?
    What about a (wireless) remote? Something you will offer on a future version?
    Thanks
    I will still extend the offer for lighthead only, I don't think I'll be offering it on the website directly since I am still honestly a bit worried about the number of people who might purchase it thinking it's the cheap option and get upset when it arrives without a battery.

    Give me a few days, and I'll figure out a solution. Whether it's just a direct PM to me on here and a paypal invoice sent after, or some hidden link on the website.

    As for the wireless remote, it's definitely something I am going to be doing on a future version. I want to eventually have a full ecosystem of lights that can all be controlled off a single remote. The current version will not have the remote option.

    Thanks!

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    20 years ago I began night-riding with a TurboCat set-up. Heavy lead-acid battery, halogen bulb and glorified flashlight optics. For the past 12 years, I've been riding generic HID and LED flood lamps. The HID, while certainly not impressive by today's standards, was a huge improvement over the halogen lights of that day. The cheap LEDs I've been using the last few years have more lumens than the retired HID lamp, and longer run-time.

    These lights have been adequate (well, perhaps not the TurboCat). I've never found issue riding MTB with either the HID or cheap LED, but the crude optics were offset by lumens...lots of them. And lots of wasted light aiming at stuff I'm not looking at during the ride. Likewise, there's probably plenty of detail I'm missing by casting the hot-spot of the flood lamp far enough up-trail to give me time to anticipate the terrain, but not seeing that terrain (well enough) as it moves closer to me.

    I'm excited to finally try trail and road LEDs that have an optimized beam pattern. I don't know if this will truly be the game-changer I'm expecting, but I'm probably as giddy in anticipation as I was when my first full-suspension frame was en route in the mail (yeah, yeah, "cool story, bro"). Outbound, big thanks for the effort and time to engineer this product! I look forward to its arrival!!!

  89. #289
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    I'm super excited to get it in your hands! Third party reviews not only terrify, but also excite me. We'll have to see.


    -------------

    For everyone else who has been reading through, and would like to get the light head only. Please PM me and I can send over an invoice as soon as I understand that you are very aware of the guarantees for run-time and such cannot be upheld if not using the OL battery pack.

    I decided not to have it up on the site, but for enthuisasts like you guys, just send me a PM and I'll get you hooked up.

    Thanks!
    Last edited by Outbound; 02-12-2018 at 10:06 PM.

  90. #290
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    ...as I understand that you are very aware of the guarantees for run-time and such cannot be upheld if not using the OL battery pack.
    Understood!

    I'll be throwing the ammeter on the light once I get it to determine how much run-time I *should* be able to pull out of my packs under the different modes. I'm sticking with packs of Panasonic cells from reputable vendors, but even then I understand there's variation and loss of performance over time.

  91. #291
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    Had some freezing temps for several days, then some snow, so we went riding to test out the new reflector. This is without the lens still, so the edges are harsher than they'll actually be, and this is still at 1100 lumens or so, not the full brightness. Waiting on an updated control board to really hit full output.

    The pics turned out good though!

    Outbound Lighting Focal Series  ---- Discussion -----shot01.jpg

    Outbound Lighting Focal Series  ---- Discussion -----shot03.jpg

    Outbound Lighting Focal Series  ---- Discussion -----shot02.jpg

    Outbound Lighting Focal Series  ---- Discussion -----shot04.jpg

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    Oha, that makes we waiting for the final product to arrive on my doorsteps. Looks really even and could replace my own lights. Or inspire for an update. Good work and keep it going :-)

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    For those of us buying just the light head, can you comment on the acceptable input power requirements. Specifically a min/max voltage and estimated power draw?

  94. #294
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    Quote Originally Posted by adama31 View Post
    For those of us buying just the light head, can you comment on the acceptable input power requirements. Specifically a min/max voltage and estimated power draw?
    From my electrical engineer:

    "Designed for a 2S lithium based battery, so input range of 6-8.4V.

    That said, the hardware should support 3V to 13V, but the input has to stay below the output since it is a boost only circuit"

    So basically, we are going to test out running a 12V circuit since some recumbent bikes have a small battery in there. But it sounds like the ultra low output ranges wouldn't work. We've gotten enough questions regarding the voltage range that he is doing some hardware substitutions to make the input range a little more robust.

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    Yes it is good to support 12V input as some ebikes has such output port.

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    Outbound,

    I've been watching this subforum recently as I've been researching an upgrade light for my wife to commute to work with on the road. I finally read through this entire thread last night and have to admit that the description of your light seems impressive and has potentially changed the direction of my light search.

    Kudos for taking your work expertise and applying it to the great activity of cycling. I asked the same question a long time ago, "Why are there no reflector based bike lights with a nicely shaped beam?" I see now, after reading this thread, that the reason is that there is a whole lot more complexity involved than making a center LED spot light.

    I'm also thrilled with the prospect of a US based company designing and assembling lights in the middle price range and with decent runtimes. My father in law recently asked me to look at the light & motion offerings and choose one of the <$100 lights to help her upgrade from her current MJ808. I was sad to see that even their remote battery options have a modest runtime, and that they were way beyond my price range. Plus, I refuse to "invest" in an all-in-one light that doesn't have a replaceable battery, so their urban lights were out. And I simply can't bring myself to drop $450 on a bike light.

    So here I am, about to stretch my budget a bit and put my faith in you guys to deliver on your promise with this focal series.

    I am curious, however, about one thing. As you've seen here, there are LOTS of threads about battery packs of all types and price ranges. It seems that at times the battery packs get more discussion than lightheads here. First, I want the thank you for sticking to the standard round connector on your lights. That decision is i'm sure universally appreciated. My question is whether you and your EE are responsible for any of the battery pack circuitry/design, or are you sourcing a more stock pack to ship your lights with? There has been plenty of discussion here regarding cheap, imported pcbs and how to check their cell balancing functions and safety etc.. Should we assume that you have been equally as attentive to the battery design as you have with the lighthead? If you are packaging these with a stock pack designed and built elsewhere, what quality control measures will you be using to ensure the longevity and safety of your included battery packs as compared to, for example, the kaidomain Panasonic packs that have been reviewed here by ledoman, gemini packs, or those offered from gloworm?

    T.L.D.R.:

    You've impressed many of us with the extensive details about your lightheads. Can you tell us a little more about your battery packs?

    -Jeremy

  97. #297
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tunnelrat81 View Post
    I've been watching this subforum recently as I've been researching an upgrade light for my wife to commute to work with on the road. I finally read through this entire thread last night and have to admit that the description of your light seems impressive and has potentially changed the direction of my light search.

    Kudos for taking your work expertise and applying it to the great activity of cycling. I asked the same question a long time ago, "Why are there no reflector based bike lights with a nicely shaped beam?" I see now, after reading this thread, that the reason is that there is a whole lot more complexity involved than making a center LED spot light.

    I'm also thrilled with the prospect of a US based company designing and assembling lights in the middle price range and with decent runtimes. My father in law recently asked me to look at the light & motion offerings and choose one of the <$100 lights to help her upgrade from her current MJ808. I was sad to see that even their remote battery options have a modest runtime, and that they were way beyond my price range. Plus, I refuse to "invest" in an all-in-one light that doesn't have a replaceable battery, so their urban lights were out. And I simply can't bring myself to drop $450 on a bike light.
    Thanks for the kind words. I'm glad you asked the same questions I did! It's not easy to make these kind of lights, but it's also not exactly rocket science and shouldn't cost the same as a cheap bike for a basic reflector and some CREE's. I know I might eat my words one day when I start trying to make even higher end lights that'll really stretch the tech.

    I am curious, however, about one thing. As you've seen here, there are LOTS of threads about battery packs of all types and price ranges. It seems that at times the battery packs get more discussion than lightheads here. First, I want the thank you for sticking to the standard round connector on your lights. That decision is i'm sure universally appreciated. My question is whether you and your EE are responsible for any of the battery pack circuitry/design, or are you sourcing a more stock pack to ship your lights with? There has been plenty of discussion here regarding cheap, imported pcbs and how to check their cell balancing functions and safety etc.. Should we assume that you have been equally as attentive to the battery design as you have with the lighthead? If you are packaging these with a stock pack designed and built elsewhere, what quality control measures will you be using to ensure the longevity and safety of your included battery packs as compared to, for example, the kaidomain Panasonic packs that have been reviewed here by ledoman, gemini packs, or those offered from gloworm?
    Great questions to ask!

    The battery pack is a stock item that has been custom built for my specifications in terms of battery selection and the jacketing. The batteries are genuine LG cells that includes a protection circuit. Properly built with good quality for all the ones that I have opened up. The supplier is actually the same supplier for that brand with the $450 light you mentioned. I won't name names.

    Part of the quality control is getting a chart of testing for every battery that is sent out. They are all load tested before being packed up and shipped out and we will be able to confirm that once we receive them. Anything that doesn't pass inspection gets sent back and refunded, so it's very much worth our while to test them when we receive them as well. Far cheaper to get a refund from the supplier then to have a failure in the field and have to refund a customer!

    We ran through lots of samples when trying to locate a battery supplier. My EE did testing on all of them to ensure the claimed output would actually be correct. Those insanely cheap battery packs are often insanely cheap for a reason. Here is a chart of some discharge testing he did for a number of battery packs we had. Keep in mind these were all "rated" for the same output. But look at the vast difference in actual amp hours.

    Outbound Lighting Focal Series  ---- Discussion -----battery.png

    The cost of the lowest performing pack was 4 or 5 times cheaper than the highest. Despite the same claimed output. I think you can guess which packs I ended up deciding to go with. There was no reason to compromise the promised output and runtime, nor potential warranty returns or frustrated customers to save some money.

    My other full time job of designing automotive aftermarket lighting taught me first hand how important first time quality is not only from the manufacturing standpoint; the customer service standpoint; but especially the financial standpoint. It may cost 20-40% more to make essentially the same product with premium components, but if it results in a near zero failure rate, then the revenue saved in warranty returns, bad reviews, shipping, and just the general headaches is 110% worth it. Will always come out ahead when building a quality product, it just takes longer to build a successful revenue stream because of the initial investment needed in higher end components and the lower margins.

    TLDR; took the same approach to design as we did to the battery packs. Quality is number one, no compromises. Price might be more expensive than a KD version, but there is a reason a lot of the brand name (gloworm, L&M, etc.) battery packs are expensive, good performing batteries aren't cheap. Plus our battery pack comes with the kickass pouch.

  98. #298
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    ...since it is a boost only circuit.
    This reminded me a question I had two years ago.

    Does it make more sense in making light source shape a (rather) long rectangle, not a square, as usual? I wrote a post two years ago, so please read more explanation here. (your EE writes "boost only", so it means several LED in series, so perhaps some special non-square optimized shape, may be?)

    And another question: Does your, and "most" of contemporary lighting simulation software take into account non point-like-ness of the LED? (two years ago I looked at some software, and they assumed only point-like source, with angular dependence of course)

    Open Book, please resolve my two-year old concerns!

  99. #299
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    Quote Originally Posted by abvgdee View Post
    This reminded me a question I had two years ago.

    Does it make more sense in making light source shape a (rather) long rectangle, not a square, as usual? I wrote a post two years ago, so please read more explanation here. (your EE writes "boost only", so it means several LED in series, so probably some special non-square optimized shape, may be?)

    And another question: Does your (or "most" of contemporary lighting simulation software take into account non point-like-ness of the LED? (two years ago I looked at some software, and they assumed only point-like source, with angular dependence of course)

    Open Book, please resolve my two-year old concerns!
    You are right about long rectangular sources being better. That's precisely what the Lumiled Altilon is. It's essentially 5 tiny dies arranged in a rectangle, what I refer to as a 1x5.

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    The reason for the boost circuit is that the chip itself runs between 13-16V, so have to boost up the voltage from the battery that's running at 7.4V. Unlike a lot of single die chips that run at 3V or so, then they have buck down the voltage to run the chip.

    As for the optical software, most certainly does account for the emitting face, and not just a single point. Single point stuff is great for real fast-quick-n-dirty simulations to get in the general ballpark, or free/cheap software. If you look around at LED datasheets you'll often find a file for raytrace files hidden around somewhere. Those are supplier offered files that provide the exact distribution curve and power for a particular chip. Those are applied to the model and then simulated. A "quick" simulation uses up to 20 million raytraces to create the simulated beam pattern. A couple hour long or overnight simulation may use up to 1 trillion raytraces to get the most real-world simulation possible. There is a happy medium between speed and accuracy. Typically I run a lot of short simulations to get close to where I want and then do an hour or two long simulation to check accuracy while I work on something else.

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    Thank you so much! Awesome open book!

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    Quote Originally Posted by abvgdee View Post
    Thank you so much! Awesome open book!
    Very welcome. I'm always happy to help! I want to get more information out there on what makes quality lighting, since it's a rather.... dark.... subject. Lots of people can cite suspension geometry stuff, frame stiffness stuff, human biometrics stuff, but not a lot of people really understand how good lighting is developed except for "big lumens = bestest", and that's mostly because the world of lighting development is hidden behind some very expensive software and fairly tight lipped engineers. Lot's of information out there if you know where to look, particularly in the automotive sector.

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    Do you plan to use an Atmel AVR microcontroller in the driver? For my headlights, I came up with my own control scheme, very well tailored for my preferences, and I'd wish to be able to re-program your light (if I ever buy it). May be others feel same? That family (8-bit, atmega, attiny) is very popular among electronics hobbyists.

    Is there a chance you'll release open-source firmware for your driver? No company makes their firmwares open source -- understandable. But may be you are different...

  103. #303
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    Quote Originally Posted by abvgdee View Post
    Do you plan to use an Atmel AVR microcontroller in the driver? For my headlights, I came up with my own control scheme, very well tailored for my preferences, and I'd wish to be able to re-program your light (if I ever buy it). May be others feel same? That family (8-bit, atmega, attiny) is very popular among electronics hobbyists.

    Is there a chance you'll release open-source firmware for your driver? No company makes their firmwares open source -- understandable. But may be you are different...
    Unfortunately that part won't exactly be opensource, nor easily programmable by a user. It's not a hobby grade microcontroller, and is programmed on the assembly line at the PCB supplier (located in Kansas City, about 3 hours from us) through a unique probe connection. Allows for ultra fast production that keeps the overall costs down.

    Trying to use more commonly available hobbiest type drivers, with ways for a user to do their own programming would only increase the already high cost (to us, not the user) and add another level of complexity. Can only go so far.

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    Thanks for explanations!

    [A bunch of boring words was here -- deleted. Let's wait for wall shots. Unfortunately, can't delete post.]

    PS. I'd wish to see a wall shot (road edition) -- an image, processed from measured data, with colorbar (and numbers), in log scale, with isolines, and with angles grid (and in decent resolution). Thanks (I remember, you planned a full-scale proper headlight comparison project, so no hurry.)
    Last edited by abvgdee; 02-02-2018 at 06:23 AM.

  105. #305
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    First big ole bag of custom made overmolded wiring harnesses showed up the other day! Put into perspective just how many I'll have made once I'm all done, haha.

    We also sent out the PO for our PCBA boards to a local supplier in Kansas City. Very qualified shop that got us great pricing and are going to work super hard to try and help hit our deadline. No overseas electrical production here. No soldered power leads, everything inspected at the manufacture, and thankfully no weeks in overseas shipping.

  106. #306
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    More science time!

    https://www.outboundlighting.com/twi...right-well-no/

    Brief discussion showing the math of why a 2000 lumen light won't let you see twice as far as a 1000 lumen light, but in fact only 41% as far.

  107. #307
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    We now have live chat on the website. It isn't manned by third party people, or chat bots. Instead think of it as a direct line to myself. Always happy to answer some questions or help with an order.

    www.outboundlighting.com!

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    Another question

    In CAD programs, when they show "wall beamshot", what illuminance is shown -- (1) on the enclosing sphere of radius 10m around the light (i.e., simulating goniometer measurements), or (2) at the plane, with the pattern hotspot at 10m (i.e., simulating wall shots)? Or something else?

    Thank you!

  109. #309
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    Quote Originally Posted by abvgdee View Post
    Another question

    In CAD programs, when they show "wall beamshot", what illuminance is shown -- (1) on the enclosing sphere of radius 10m around the light (i.e., simulating goniometer measurements), or (2) at the plane, with the pattern hotspot at 10m (i.e., simulating wall shots)? Or something else?

    Thank you!
    Can be either or depending on your goal.

    With candela or intensity plots you are plotting onto a sphere because you are looking at angle requirements. This is primarily what is used when designing a beam pattern.

    However when wanting to check illumance on a wall to get an idea of lux, it's a plane at a set distance. Or can set a plane horizontally to get an idea of how it'll illuminate the ground. On some more advanced software can even setup things such as terrain or objects to get illumination maps on there. Maybe one of these days I'll be able to bring out a 3D Scanner to my local trails and make the ultimate light for a particular trail. :P

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTo7UZ4Sig8

  110. #310
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    Can you tell me how will we atach gopro adaprer to the light, with some screws or there is something setup for that?

    Sent from my SM-N910C using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrBucan View Post
    Can you tell me how will we atach gopro adaprer to the light, with some screws or there is something setup for that?

    Sent from my SM-N910C using Tapatalk
    So the GoPro adapter is exactly that, it's just a GoPro adapter that allows you to mount the light onto your exising GoPro mounts, in any way that you see fit. For helmet applications, or on bars or wherever you want to. We obviously recommend using our mount for the bars, but we wanted to give users options to other mounting solutions, and therefore included the GoPro adapter mount.

    Hope that makes sense!

    Edit: re-read your question. You will remove the existing rubber factory bar mount and air scoop with a 4mm allen screw, and attach the GoPro adapter in it's place using that same piece of hardware.

  112. #312
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    Thx for the reply, was just curious, i am prolly still use the default mount coz of faster mounting on and off the handlebars. Decided to use it also on my commute to work.

    Sent from my SM-N910C using Tapatalk

  113. #313
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrBucan View Post
    Thx for the reply, was just curious, i am prolly still use the default mount coz of faster mounting on and off the handlebars. Decided to use it also on my commute to work.

    Sent from my SM-N910C using Tapatalk
    Kyle (Zenki) is right, pretty simple and quick swap. There is a nyloc nut inside the assembly so the chances of stripping existing threads inside the diecast is pretty slim. And then if you do, it's simply a nyloc nut replacement instead of having to buy a whole new light.

  114. #314
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    350 pounds worth of batteries showing up on Thursday! UPS guy is going to hateeee me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    350 pounds worth of batteries showing up on Thursday! UPS guy is going to hateeee me.
    Thanks for the update. I know I'm not alone in my anxious wait for pre-orders to ship out. Are you guy still hoping/planning for a late March delivery?

    -Jeremy

  116. #316
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tunnelrat81 View Post
    Thanks for the update. I know I'm not alone in my anxious wait for pre-orders to ship out. Are you guy still hoping/planning for a late March delivery?

    -Jeremy
    I'm waiting on a more firm date from my local PCBA supplier that is putting together the PCB's, but to be honest, probably going to slip into early April. All the parts, lenses, reflectors, straps, batteries, cases, etc will be here in house within the next 2 weeks, but the PCB supplier has been beholden to availability from their own suppliers for various components. Some last minute Engineering Change Orders from us pushed the date back that they could deliver. Wanted to absolutely have a rock-solid product from the get go.

    Thankfully there is nothing so far that is causing us to go back and redesign an entire product or circuitry like some kickstarter projects, and be months or years past the estimated delivery date.

    I'm itching to get these out to everyone as well. Debts are starting to build up! Gotta get to selling!

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    Thank you for such a full explanation. I doubt anyone here will have a problem with you making sure things are right before shipping. Your continued transparency in the process is refreshing and adds to the anticipation for what we know will be a special product.

    -Jeremy

  118. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    Thankfully there is nothing so far that is causing us to go back and redesign an entire product or circuitry like some kickstarter projects, and be months or years past the estimated delivery date.
    That happened to Orfos, the company that provided their molds couldn't live up to their claims, and they had to start over with a new company. Great product, can't wait until I can update to the new gear.

    It's March! Update time!

    For future reference, when introducing what could be a game changing product, understate your worst case delivery timeline by 30%. Nothing sucks worse than a pushback for something you are excited about. Nothing is better than early delivery dates.
    I will suffer no butt-hurt fools!

  119. #319
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flamingtaco View Post
    That happened to Orfos, the company that provided their molds couldn't live up to their claims, and they had to start over with a new company. Great product, can't wait until I can update to the new gear.

    It's March! Update time!

    For future reference, when introducing what could be a game changing product, understate your worst case delivery timeline by 30%. Nothing sucks worse than a pushback for something you are excited about. Nothing is better than early delivery dates.
    It's funny, we had the same problem with the lens. About a week away from seeing if the new lens tooling company can live up to their claim. Previous company did a crap job, and then ghosted us.

    PCB supplier says they'll have a firm date to give me tomorrow. As soon as I know, you guys will know.

    I had actually been wanting to say we were going to deliver in February for the KS, but was urged to push it further back just in case. Well all those just in cases did come through and now used up that extra 30% timeframe. Haha. Back when I started the project in April I was shooting for a November launch date. Glad I didn't publicity state that anywhere!

    I'll have some pictures tonight of all the batteries that showed up. Will be able to start testing and putting them into the pouches in the meantime. Fair bit of work to put 500 silicone enclosed batteries into some sticky rubber pouches.

  120. #320
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    Nothing sucks worse than a pushback for something you are excited about. Nothing is better than early delivery dates.
    I would like to disagree on this. For me at least what sucks the most is getting a subquality product for the sake of getting it on time. I got burned for the same reason and dont like that mentality in anyone. So il rather even w8 some more then to compromise quality.
    And nothing is better then to get what you expected.
    So for example of Orfos, i respect the fact they didnt send subpar product just to be on time, everyone was satisfied with Flares they received, even though it was much later.

    Sent from my SM-N910C using Tapatalk

  121. #321
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrBucan View Post
    I would like to disagree on this. For me at least what sucks the most is getting a subquality product for the sake of getting it on time. I
    I think that the context of Flaming's post was to take the worst case delivery date and extend that 30%. Then you have cushion and you may be a hero for delivering a quality product ahead of, time and if worst comes to worse, you'll still have a decent chance of making the ship date.

    As a manufacturer I do this regularly. When I tell someone their custom machined parts order will take 2 weeks they sometimes groan a bit but place the order. Then after a week and a half I'm shipping/delivering parts happy faces are all over the place.
    GoPro adapters for bike lights http://www.pacifier.com/~kevinb/index.html

  122. #322
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    It's funny, we had the same problem with the lens. About a week away from seeing if the new lens tooling company can live up to their claim. Previous company did a crap job, and then ghosted us.
    So, you are saying you don't have confirmation from your lens producer NOW? Hopefully they get it right, I don't need a 3/4yr extension on another kickstarter!

    What was the deciding factor in going with a silicone lens? Reduced parts? Cheaper than UV stabile acrylic? Just cause you like to show off?
    I will suffer no butt-hurt fools!

  123. #323
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flamingtaco View Post
    So, you are saying you don't have confirmation from your lens producer NOW? Hopefully they get it right, I don't need a 3/4yr extension on another kickstarter!

    What was the deciding factor in going with a silicone lens? Reduced parts? Cheaper than UV stabile acrylic? Just cause you like to show off?
    We have shots of a cheaper material to confirm the shape and dimensions are stable, and they are now shooting with the correct material to finally dial things in.

    Went with the silicone as a parts reduction, clearer than PMMA and PC, scratch and crash resistant, lighter weight than plastics, and because it's an optical material I've been wanting to work with for a while now. Neat material that seems to blow peoples mind when they touch it and see it in person. Not sure if will still use it in future products as a straight up outer lens, since the costs are fairly high compared to PMMA, but I'm curious to hear what other reactions are to it.

  124. #324
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    Outbound,

    My priority is reliability. Scratch resistance is important. Not becoming brittle in subzero weather is important. Not becoming cloudy from UV rays is important.

    Aside from cost, is there any downside to using a silicone lens?

    Scott Novak

  125. #325
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Novak View Post
    Outbound,

    My priority is reliability. Scratch resistance is important. Not becoming brittle in subzero weather is important. Not becoming cloudy from UV rays is important.

    Aside from cost, is there any downside to using a silicone lens?

    Scott Novak
    So far not really. I guess I shouldn't say I am opposed to it in general in the future because of cost, I just need to implement it better. Smaller optical features with silicone are amazing because of the fact you can have zero draft faces and undercuts, and can have it pressed right against the LED without worries of heat affecting it. The real killer is the cost of the tooling. It is by far the most expensive tooling in the whole light because it has to be a hot-runner type tool, along with extremely polished faces since it's optical grade.

    So it hurts as a startup with limited cash, but in the future when reinvesting it won't be so bad. I've got a lot of ideas for the silicone material in the near future. Also a few tricks up my sleeve for some insane light sources. Was tipped off on some new developments that I am trying to get my hands on.

  126. #326
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    Hey Outbound,
    We had a little rain a couple of nights ago so I decided to convert some of my lux measurements to candela using the formula posted in the beginning of this thread. I remeasured my distances and to be kind to myself my sloppy testing made any previous data unusable. Using more accurate measurements and my 2017 Gloworm X2 (S/S optics) I ended up with a calculated 150 max. lux reading. That's the best thrower of any of my sub 2000 lumen lights so the 175 max. lux you got from your road lighthead looks pretty outstanding and I'm definitely going to try using that helmet mounted since I'm getting both road and mountain versions. Also since the line of sight distances are probably a lot greater on my desert trails than the forest environment you ride in I'm more comfortable that the 80 max. lux of the trail lighthead should be adequate for all but the fastest trails I ride. Patiently waiting, Thanks for doing this for us!
    Mole

  127. #327
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRMOLE View Post
    Hey Outbound,
    We had a little rain a couple of nights ago so I decided to convert some of my lux measurements to candela using the formula posted in the beginning of this thread. I remeasured my distances and to be kind to myself my sloppy testing made any previous data unusable. Using more accurate measurements and my 2017 Gloworm X2 (S/S optics) I ended up with a calculated 150 max. lux reading. That's the best thrower of any of my sub 2000 lumen lights so the 175 max. lux you got from your road lighthead looks pretty outstanding and I'm definitely going to try using that helmet mounted since I'm getting both road and mountain versions. Also since the line of sight distances are probably a lot greater on my desert trails than the forest environment you ride in I'm more comfortable that the 80 max. lux of the trail lighthead should be adequate for all but the fastest trails I ride. Patiently waiting, Thanks for doing this for us!
    Mole
    That 150 lux on a typical TIR spot optic with a 2000 lumen source sounds about right to me. I was getting some high readings like that too on even some of the cheaper chinese lights, thing is that all of that light was compressed into such a tiny area that even though it had high lux, it was nearly un-rideable. Like riding with a laser pointer compared to the Trail optic.

    Still looking forward to seeing what you think about having the massive field of vision with the trail despite a lower peak lux then what you think is acceptable. It's amazing what contrast ratio reduction will do for our eyes in terms of what "feels" brighter compared to something else when in person and in motion (in regards to just looking at pictures and numbers).

  128. #328
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    That 150 lux on a typical TIR spot optic with a 2000 lumen source sounds about right to me. I was getting some high readings like that too on even some of the cheaper chinese lights, thing is that all of that light was compressed into such a tiny area that even though it had high lux, it was nearly un-rideable. Like riding with a laser pointer compared to the Trail optic.

    Still looking forward to seeing what you think about having the massive field of vision with the trail despite a lower peak lux then what you think is acceptable. It's amazing what contrast ratio reduction will do for our eyes in terms of what "feels" brighter compared to something else when in person and in motion (in regards to just looking at pictures and numbers).
    You'll definitely get feedback on what I think + in a few months on how your lights work in 100 degree ride temps.
    Mole

  129. #329
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    That 150 lux on a typical TIR spot optic with a 2000 lumen source sounds about right to me. I was getting some high readings like that too on even some of the cheaper chinese lights, thing is that all of that light was compressed into such a tiny area that even though it had high lux, it was nearly un-rideable. Like riding with a laser pointer compared to the Trail optic.

    Still looking forward to seeing what you think about having the massive field of vision with the trail despite a lower peak lux then what you think is acceptable. It's amazing what contrast ratio reduction will do for our eyes in terms of what "feels" brighter compared to something else when in person and in motion (in regards to just looking at pictures and numbers).
    What was the distance for those lux readings?

    I'd like so see lux readings for both of these lights from centerline to 10º-15º. How well the lights fill their spill would say a lot about how ubiquitous bike light optics can't live up to the needs of cyclists, even when they are some of the best optics available.
    I will suffer no butt-hurt fools!

  130. #330
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flamingtaco View Post
    What was the distance for those lux readings?
    For german StVZO measurements 10m are standard.

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    Maybe I missed it, but how do people plan on running a helmet mount with the 6400mAh battery? Battery in a jersey pocket or pack?
    Or, how would the road/trail combo pack work with 1 battery?

    Currently I have a bar/helmet setup with smaller 3200mAh batteries so my helmet battery is on the back of my helmet.

  132. #332
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    Quote Originally Posted by farfromovin View Post
    Maybe I missed it, but how do people plan on running a helmet mount with the 6400mAh battery? Battery in a jersey pocket or pack?
    Or, how would the road/trail combo pack work with 1 battery?

    Currently I have a bar/helmet setup with smaller 3200mAh batteries so my helmet battery is on the back of my helmet.
    I certainly don't mean to speak for Matt, but the lightheads in the Road and Trail combo are intended to be used one at a time, not simultaneously. Ideally this would be for someone commuting on pavement and also riding trails. If you want to run them simultaneously, best to purchase separate road and trail packages, with 2 battery packs.

    Helmet mounted, Matt had mentioned carrying the battery in your pack (a jersey pocket would probably work as well, subject to cable length).

    At least this is what I had understood after chatting with Matt about these and numerous other questions I had the other evening.

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    Outbound Lighting Focal Series ---- Discussion ----

    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbkrmike View Post
    I certainly don't mean to speak for Matt, but the lightheads in the Road and Trail combo are intended to be used one at a time, not simultaneously. Ideally this would be for someone commuting on pavement and also riding trails. If you want to run them simultaneously, best to purchase separate road and trail packages, with 2 battery packs.

    Helmet mounted, Matt had mentioned carrying the battery in your pack (a jersey pocket would probably work as well, subject to cable length).

    At least this is what I had understood after chatting with Matt about these and numerous other questions I had the other evening.
    Thanks for confirming that.

    So for mtb use with dual lights would it be recommended to run a trail on the helmet as well or is that more of a preference? I currently have a spread beam on my bars and a spot beam on the helmet and it works pretty well for me.
    I know the design behind this is to only need 1 light, but I like redundancy and being able to see something off the side of the trail despite where my bars are pointed if need be.

  134. #334
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    Quote Originally Posted by farfromovin View Post
    Thanks for confirming that.

    So for mtb use with dual lights would it be recommended to run a trail on the helmet as well or is that more of a preference? I currently have a spread beam on my bars and a spot beam on the helmet and it works pretty well for me.
    Provided I understood his advice correctly, I believe that ideally, you would run a road on the helmet and a trail on the bar, which would be consistent with the beam pattern you are currently running. Two trails would work however, as would one trail only on the bar (which Matt seemed quite confident would work very adequately for most applications). One road on the bar might prove to be challenging on anything fast and twisty.

    Hopefully I am not mis-stating anything we discussed.

  135. #335
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    Quote Originally Posted by farfromovin View Post
    Thanks for confirming that.

    So for mtb use with dual lights would it be recommended to run a trail on the helmet as well or is that more of a preference? I currently have a spread beam on my bars and a spot beam on the helmet and it works pretty well for me.
    From what I interpret from this extensive discussion on these new lights, it sounds like the light spread on the trail edition would potentially be significantly broader (and more evenly spread) than most (or is it all?) lights on the market. So this means that if you are currently happy with a wide beam on the bars and a spot on your helmet, the light to replace may be the one on the bars, and leave your current long throw spotlight on your head. As mtnbkrmike stated above, none of us can speak for Matt, and my guess is that before too long you'll get a reply directly from the source.

    I do remember him saying somewhere that although these lights can absolutely be mounted to helmets, they were primarily designed with handlebar mount in mind.

    -Jeremy

  136. #336
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tunnelrat81 View Post
    I do remember him saying somewhere that although these lights can absolutely be mounted to helmets, they were primarily designed with handlebar mount in mind.
    Yikes. Yes. That is consistent with my discussions as well.

    I think that came up more or less when he mentioned that for most, the trail lighthead on the bar only would more than suffice. In my circumstances, he mentioned I could supplement that with my Nite Rider 750 Lumina Micro (for the 5 or so minutes that it remained bright enough, anyway, lol). Or, I could use a road (or trail) lighthead on my helmet, but a longer cable than the standard one may be required to carry the battery in a pack. And it would likely be overkill.

    I'm not going to comment anymore for fear I may be misstating something.

  137. #337
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tunnelrat81 View Post
    From what I interpret from this extensive discussion on these new lights, it sounds like the light spread on the trail edition would potentially be significantly broader (and more evenly spread) than most (or is it all?) lights on the market. So this means that if you are currently happy with a wide beam on the bars and a spot on your helmet, the light to replace may be the one on the bars, and leave your current long throw spotlight on your head. As mtnbkrmike stated above, none of us can speak for Matt, and my guess is that before too long you'll get a reply directly from the source.

    I do remember him saying somewhere that although these lights can absolutely be mounted to helmets, they were primarily designed with handlebar mount in mind.

    -Jeremy
    Well, road and trail pre-ordered anyway . I’m gonna give it a go. Love the engineering behind this project.

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    Quote Originally Posted by farfromovin View Post
    Well, road and trail pre-ordered anyway . I’m gonna give it a go. Love the engineering behind this project.
    I have a road edition on order as well, and am as anxious as anyone for it to show up. Their approach to design and execution is as encouraging to me as the product they are offering. Lots of industries have been in a race to the bottom, so seeing a company trying to do it right is like a breath of fresh air. It's worth it for me to buy a light for that reason alone, in hopes that they succeed and can bring future products to market.

    Sadly, however, the light is for my wife...which means that she'll get most of the joy out of it and I get to negotiate with her whenever I want to borrow it.

    -Jeremy

  139. #339
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    Quote Originally Posted by farfromovin View Post
    Well, road and trail pre-ordered anyway . I’m gonna give it a go. Love the engineering behind this project.
    I ordered road and trail too. I plan on trying the road version for helmet use but hard to predict how it will work because it was design specifically as a bar mounted road light so light distribution and beam shape may or may not work well for this use. Maximum lux numbers are very good for the road version (for a 1500 lumen light) so it has the potential for very good throw but will require actual ride testing to see how well it works. I have several other lights that I consider possible good matches for helmet use paired with the trail version which I'll test also but hope the road version will work since I know the tint match will be exact on it. We can all speculate but till the lights are delivered Matt is the only real reliable source of information at the moment.
    Mole

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    Quote Originally Posted by MRMOLE View Post
    I ordered road and trail too. I plan on trying the road version for helmet use but hard to predict how it will work because it was design specifically as a bar mounted road light so light distribution and beam shape may or may not work well for this use. Maximum lux numbers are very good for the road version (for a 1500 lumen light) so it has the potential for very good throw but will require actual ride testing to see how well it works. I have several other lights that I consider possible good matches for helmet use paired with the trail version which I'll test also but hope the road version will work since I know the tint match will be exact on it. We can all speculate but till the lights are delivered Matt is the only real reliable source of information at the moment.
    Mole
    Hope Matt is right and the trail version is exactly all any reasonable rider needs. If that’s the case I’m still happy just having a tint matching spot on my helmet for trailside repairs, backup light source, blinding buddies, etc...

  141. #341
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    Good job!

    Dang it, I spend the day working on the production space and thread blows up.

    For the helmet mount stuff, I have an extension cord (not on the website yet) that is about 30" long so that a battery can sit in a backpack or a hip pack for use on a helmet. Would like to have a helmet specific mount in the future, but there wasn't much demand for one right now, plus the 4 cell pack might be a little heavy up there. If sales do well, can afford a run of 2 cell helmet-specific type packs, but for now cash flow is just too tight to make another option at the moment.

    The Trail or the Road will be perfectly fine on a helmet. The road has a higher peak lux, and could be aimed up a bit higher so that the cutoff isn't as noticeable. If looking straight ahead, a road + trail on the bars would be a peak lux of around 230-250 based on prelim tests. What is cool about either version on the helmet is not only the tint matching perfectly, but the light carpet is still in effect, and really does make for a feeling of total vision as you look around combined with the bar light. I don't think anyone would be disappointed with either versions on the helmet.

    --------------------------

    The Road & Trail combo on the website is indeed meant for those who do both trail and road riding on two different bikes, want to have lights specific for each need, and want to save a bit by not having another battery. I wouldn't recommend the road version on a trail, just because the Trail edition is designed specifically for it, but you won't die, and it won't be the worst thing. It'll still be miles better than a typical cheap spot light. I just wouldn't be comparing it to a Seca 2500.

    Nor would I be recommending the trail version on the road because it's not as focused to overcome ambient light, and doesn't have the cutoff. However it too will still be better than a typical bike light.

    Hopefully this helps clear some things up!

  142. #342
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    Also forgot to mention, I am going to try and get more updated lux values for all of you. Will be setting up a little test area in my backyard shining into the woods with posts marked off at various degrees as requested in here. Was going to do it tonight but it's pouring rain right now. :/

  143. #343
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    Also forgot to mention, I am going to try and get more updated lux values for all of you. Will be setting up a little test area in my backyard shining into the woods with posts marked off at various degrees as requested in here. Was going to do it tonight but it's pouring rain right now. :/
    Rain sucks, for bike riding anyway. Definitely looking forward to more raw data on your lights. Estimating how they will work is difficult because your "carpet of light" concept is so different to what we are used to. Thanks for keeping us updated.
    Mole

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    I'm still interested, and still curious... Near field. Almost all cutoff lights have uneven near field, their "carpet" starts at around 4 meters. Could you boast about your near field efforts (for the road version)? Could you comment my nerdy understanding, why it's uneven?

    1. Design/manufacturing accuracy.

    (For Philips SR80, the bottom half of the main pattern is (seems to me) created by a relatively small upper reflector part closer to LEDs — you can notice a change in stripes slope; most of the reflector surface is for the upper pattern half — the cutoff area).

    The near field could have been created by a very thin reflector strip very close to LED. (very thin — because for the near field adjustment, very little light is needed). However, (a) because this thin strip must reflect light to larger range of angles than "far beam" reflector parts, and (b) because of the proximity to (finite-sized=big) LED, this strip (its curvatures) must be designed, manufactured and positioned — much, much more precisely than major "far beam" reflector surface. Too much troubles. Am I right here?

    Did you — unlike essentially everybody else — took the time and efforts for this tiny strip?

    2. Cars-oriented software.

    It looks to me that one should separate the simulation of near and far angles — to not wait huge time for relatively rare near-field rays, and instead, just concentrate on them, ignoring the would-be-"overexposed" cutoff area. (somehow identify LED rays angles range that will contribute to cutoff area, and specify it to ignore it).

    Does cars-oriented (where near field is not needed) software allow such a separate simulation of selected rays range? Did you use it?

    3. Narrow angles for direct-LED-visible near-field illumination.

    This is different, it's about width (not about uniformity) of illumination. Best described by a picture:

    Notice the blue angle for SR80 is larger, so better. (of course, this direct-LED-visible illumination should be further adjusted by reflector — to make it even; alas, this has not been done). How about this idea — to make these 2 "extension discontinuities", is it good?

    Many words, sorry And thanks again!
    Last edited by abvgdee; 03-20-2018 at 07:58 AM.

  145. #345
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    Quote Originally Posted by abvgdee View Post
    I'm still interested, and still curious... Near field. Almost all cutoff lights have uneven near field, their "carpet" starts at around 4 meters. Could you boast about your near field efforts (for the road version)? Could you comment my nerdy understanding, why it's uneven?

    1. Design/manufacturing accuracy.

    (For Philips SR80, the bottom half of the main pattern is (seems to me) created by a relatively small upper reflector part closer to LEDs — you can notice a change in stripes slope; most of the reflector surface is for the upper pattern half — the cutoff area).

    The near field could have been created by a very thin reflector strip very close to LED. However, (a) because this thin strip must reflect light to larger range of angles than "far beam" reflector parts, and (b) because of the proximity to (finite-sized=big) LED, this strip (its curvatures) must be designed, manufactured and positioned — much, much more precisely than major "far beam" reflector surface. Too much troubles. Am I right here?

    Did you — unlike essentially everybody else — took the time and efforts for this tiny strip?

    2. Cars-oriented software.

    It looks to me that one should separate the simulation of near and far angles — to not wait huge time for relatively rare near-field rays, and instead, just concentrate on them, ignoring the would-be-"overexposed" cutoff area. (somehow identify LED rays angles range that will contribute to cutoff area, and specify it to ignore it).

    Does cars-oriented (where near field is not needed) software allow such a separate simulation of selected rays range? Did you use it?

    3. Narrow angles for direct-LED-visible near-field illumination.

    This is different, it's about width (not about uniformity) of illumination. Best described by a picture:

    Notice the blue angle for SR80 is larger, so better. (of course, this direct-LED-visible illumination should be further adjusted by reflector — to make it even; alas, this has not been done). How about this idea — to make these 2 "extension discontinuities", is it good?

    Many words, sorry And thanks again!
    I will try and get some better visuals later tonight, but I can't speak for all other types of lights and their uneven near field, but I will say it is quite challenging to control. It is why we went through 3 different production tools.

    The reflector size makes it near impossible to get a proper prototype done since we are talking reflector facets that are 4mm x 4mm on the cutoff version, and 1.5mm x 1.5mm on the trail version. They have to be polished to a very high spec before being metalized. We attempted some 3D printed parts and then metalizing and it confirmed we were in the general ballpark, but was nowhere near as accurate as an actual tooled part coming from a mold.

    So manufacturing plays a big part in it, as well as the actual reflector facet size. You'll notice on a lot of cheaper lights the facets are actually quite large, this is because it's far easier to polish a mold when the facets are large, but then that means you only have a few faces to re-image the light source. It can get tough to try and explain just through words in layman terms, but have to consider that the primary job of the reflector facet is to project the source image in a different direction, as well as a stretch/squish the image itself to create a beam pattern. So lots of facets provide lots of opportunities to squish/stretch the source image until it is nearly seamless and hard to tell which facet is doing what. But if you only have half a dozen facets then it can be real easy to tell what facet is doing what (similar to what you figured out on the saferide). So that is a design tradeoff between beam pattern control/blending, and initial tooling costs.

    I hattttteeee artifacts, especially when it can be avoided. So there are some heavy textured sections of the reflector to make sure that there isn't hotspots. In fact here is a picture taken. The stakes pictured are at 10m and 10* interval spacing. The bike is on sort of a lean so it looks lopsided, and the camera isn't picking up the 5-10 lux that is visible at the 40* mark and the few lux visible at the 50* mark outside the view of the camera. But it shows the evenness of the trail light carpet (very similar to the road).

    Outbound Lighting Focal Series  ---- Discussion -----28939167_10100278011715303_252610032_o-1-.jpg

    As for the reflector design for nearfield/far field, I can't say there are hard and fast rules because there are thousands of different ways that a source image can get re-imaged to achieve the desired effect. That is why there are entire subsections of engineering dedicated to Optical Engineering, massive conferences every year for automotive lighting techniques, and whole books written on it. This is an example of what I mean by source image redirection:

    Outbound Lighting Focal Series  ---- Discussion -----sourceimage.jpg

    Except in that case, the source is a halogen filament, which is basically a cylinder. While in LED cases, the source is a small square (or rectangle in my case). The whole science of improving efficiency with lighting doesn't apply just to cars and bikes. Also things like streelights, office spaces, home lighting, etc. are all starting to see optical illumination engineering take hold to maximize light output. This is an example from a whitepaper I have showing the difference between a traditional street light with a spot/polar type optic (what almost every bike light is), and an engineered optic that puts light exactly where it's needed. Notice the power required difference. This means that it can use a far lower lumen light to achieve the exact same output where it's required. It's how the trail version is batting alongside the Seca 2500 despite nearly half the power.

    Outbound Lighting Focal Series  ---- Discussion -----directing.jpg

    ----------------------

    As for the software, still have to consider the whole beam pattern, though often I would focus on just a select key areas and tweak. Even by setting target beam angles and spreads by one or two degrees can drastically change the whole system, or by changing the focal length. There are a lot of cool things that can be done once really understand the software. It is like any other CAD modeling software. Can you do some basic stuff with it without much knowledge? Yep. Can you really get a high quality model that fully exploits the software within a week or two? Noooope. Took me almost 2-3 years of working with it almost everyday to feel really proficient with it to the point I'm comfortable developing all kinds of optics whether it's reflector, solid, TIR, light pipes, etc.

    -----------

    As for the direct LED visibility, it was a design tradeoff between the outer lens, light to be redirected forwards, and the light on the ground in front. The reflector itself does fill in the area that the LED isn't visible as well as the blending lens itself tosses some more light further to the side than what is directly visible. Plus if you push the LED further towards the edge of the light, that is a LOT of light energy that is going to be wasted directly on the front tire. B&M does a decent job of redirecting it with a tiny little lens that sits in front of the LED on their IQ series, but it also contributes to an uneven nearfield.

  146. #346
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    Outbound,

    I think that this is a good example of where art meets science. You need an intuitive grasp of the science to put it all into perspective.

    Scott Novak

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    Thank you!

    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    I will try and get some better visuals later tonight...
    Yes, please. This last trail-version photo looks great (it's without lens?). I'd like to see a similar shot for road version. In fact, I don't see here any road version photos. The last (third) photo from your post#189 — is it road, old mold, and tilted up?

    However, my curiosity is far from being quenched! You mention manufacturing difficulties polishing smaller facets. But this only exacerbates the near field! (for reasons I wrote above "However, (a) because..."). You didn't comment that my (I'd say — key) paragraph, and you forgot to boast how you managed to get the near field then! (especially if it's so much aggravated by manufacturing difficulties)

    Source image redirection from Optical conferences — it's not about your design? I thought your design is kind of "classic" — similar to SR80 (or most other headlights) reflector, with (modern dome-less) rectangular LED, and with horizontally-tossing front lens. Sorry if I missed something great...

    As to 2. software "select angles range" and 3. direct LED visibility — all clear, thanks!

  148. #348
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    Quote Originally Posted by abvgdee View Post
    Thank you!


    Yes, please. This last trail-version photo looks great (it's without lens?). I'd like to see a similar shot for road version. In fact, I don't see here any road version photos. The last (third) photo from your post#189 — is it road, old mold, and tilted up?

    However, my curiosity is far from being quenched! You mention manufacturing difficulties polishing smaller facets. But this only exacerbates the near field! (for reasons I wrote above "However, (a) because..."). You didn't comment that my (I'd say — key) paragraph, and you forgot to boast how you managed to get the near field then! (especially if it's so much aggravated by manufacturing difficulties)

    Source image redirection from Optical conferences — it's not about your design? I thought your design is kind of "classic" — similar to SR80 (or most other headlights) reflector, with (modern dome-less) rectangular LED, and with horizontally-tossing front lens. Sorry if I missed something great...

    As to 2. software "select angles range" and 3. direct LED visibility — all clear, thanks!
    Had been avoiding posting a more recent road reflector because the older photos were using an 1x4 chip, and the newer 1x5 chip has made it much better. However still waiting on the blending lens. We got photos of the successful shot with the correct material, but they need to modify the tool since some tolerances were out of specced range (not on the optic itself however) so yet again, another week until we have some of the lens production samples in our hands.

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    However I grabbed the camera and fired off some shots. First up is a wall shot showing the uniformity. The light bleed you see above the cutoff is 100% intentional, this is a small bleed of light that illuminates road signs, car reflectors, pedestrian reflectors and more. It is not glaring or causes glaring to oncoming traffic, but lets you ride more comfortably. This is a defacto standard in automotive lighting and required by law (this is why a lot of aftermarket HID projectors fail certification tests actually) for the purpose of sign marking. Otherwise can see why I am waiting on my blending lens. It'll soften up the outer edges and bleed the light together as shown in the simulations I've posted earlier.

    Outbound Lighting Focal Series  ---- Discussion -----road-reflector-wall.jpg

    Next up is a shot of the light aimed maybe 7-8m away towards my garage door. Shows the uniformity of the nearfield (and the width) as well as the sharp cutoff. Keen eyes can spot the small sign marking light bleed. Notice how it's not as "bright" as it seemed on the up close wall shot? And how some jagged edges on the up close shot seem to melt away at distance? This is why an up close wall shot can help give some clues to how the light is designed, but it won't tell the whole story on how it actually performs when illuminating objects in the real world.

    Outbound Lighting Focal Series  ---- Discussion -----road-reflector-actual.jpg

    Here is the other reason why I am anxiously awaiting the blending lens. The annoying darker gaps to the left and right when showing the further downrange shots I know people would jump on as not being great. But here you go. This is pointed down my driveway, the neighbors lawn is probably 20 meters away.

    Outbound Lighting Focal Series  ---- Discussion -----road-reflector-actual-downroad.jpg

    ------------------------------------

    Now for some more reflector details.

    The nearfield isn't really some super secret earth shattering new tech that is "patent pending" (like a friend of ours on here a while ago. ). It is just a culmination of designing with it in mind, as a primary goal, along with some amazing manufacturing partners who can bring my rather complex reflector to life. The complexity isn't in the shape, it's in the very well made faces that are adhering to the strict curvature that was designed. The earlier issues with the trail reflector were corrected with a small secondary reflector strip similar to what you were discussing with the Saferide I believe. Tiny change, but required a whole new tool, and a whole lot more money. But it fixed it completely.

    Outbound Lighting Focal Series  ---- Discussion -----trail-reflector.jpg

    The Road reflector was actually a bit easier to get the nearfield all blended up on the second try (vs the third on the trail), but larger facets do make it a bit easier to control vs the thousands of facets approach that I used on the trail. Here is a GIF that I put together that shows the source image (the yellow LED face) being reflected on the reflector. Can see how different reflectors are doing different work as the light is rotated through. Then once you get level with it, can't see the LED chip source image anymore.




    -----------------

    Hope this helps.
    Last edited by Outbound; 03-21-2018 at 07:43 AM.

  149. #349
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    Yes, thanks. It's not that I was trying to get you acknowledge I'm right. I just was curious (all have problems in the near, why?)

    So the trail reflector on the photo is the third version? And the strip is still made of facets? (in SR it's really a smooth (unused) strip, no facets) Is it the very top row?

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    Which variant of the A1SB is used?
    And when was this chip introduced?
    I guess 2016, since that's written on the data sheets.

  151. #351
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    Quote Originally Posted by angerdan View Post
    Which variant of the A1SB is used?
    And when was this chip introduced?
    I guess 2016, since that's written on the data sheets.
    We'll be using the 5 die H bin variant, with a target lumen of 1500 and color code 4A which is the warmest white in production right now.

    It was introduced in 2016, but couldn't even get our hands on them until mid 2017. Datasheets are always published well in advance of when production parts can even be acquired. You'll see these chips on a lot of OEM headlights in 2019-2020 cars. Most headlight designs are 3 years ahead of the car model year.

  152. #352
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    Posting over what I sent to all our Kickstarter backers regarding the current shipping status of the lights.

    Hey everyone!

    So the end of March is upon us. We were hoping to be shipping these incredible lights out to you by now, but seems we got ahead of ourselves a bit. However the good news is that we weren’t too far off. I guess I’ll start this off with the bad news, it is currently looking like we will not be shipping until the middle of May 2018. The reason for this is mostly out of our control, though our desire for quality is what also caused the slippage.

    When we were quoting the project in November prior to launch, our electrical component supplier was confident that the main LED’s had a lead time of roughly 8-10 weeks. The LED was the longest lead item, and so we felt confident that placing an order shortly after the new year would give us plenty of breathing room to meet the late March deadline we imposed. Samples of the chip were hard to come by since they are a special order item direct from the manufacture, and we finally received them near the beginning of the year. We found a few issues that needed correction and testing before we could place the order for the PCB boards. Once we completed testing and validation we placed the order near the end of January only to find out that the lead time on the LED’s had gone from a potential of 8-10 weeks, to 16 weeks.

    We mulled over the thought of changing the LED, or switching to 5 individual ones, but simulations showed nothing would perform as good as original LED combined with the reflector we had already spent a significant amount of money retooling to get just right. We arrived at the decision to just stick with the game plan, even though it will slip our shipping date by several weeks. We trust that you can understand our frustration and are okay with us putting quality over meeting the target date.

    -----------------------------------------------

    Though we have run into issues regarding the production date of our PCB’s, everything else regarding the light is humming right along! As I mentioned in a previous update, we got the batteries, pouches, input wires, and extension cords at the beginning of the month. Now we have ALL our silicone, plastic, and die cast parts. A combined total of over 10,000 individual parts waiting to be assembled. The custom carrying cases are fresh off the boat and en-route to our location as we speak. The silicone lens and reflectors are the only parts that we are waiting on. Those are just a week or two away as well.

    Outbound Lighting Focal Series  ---- Discussion -----ks01.jpg

    Outbound Lighting Focal Series  ---- Discussion -----ks02.jpg

    In the meantime, production did start with several sub-assembly steps completed. Things such as the silicone light pipe and enclosure assembled, the straps put into the bar mount scoop, and putting the batteries into the pouches. These are steps that take hours to do (especially when doing 500 of them!) but will set us up so that when the PCB’s arrive, we can very quickly assemble the last few steps and get these products out the door to you!

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    Outbound Lighting Focal Series  ---- Discussion -----ks05.jpg

    We also have placed the order for the t-shirts for our backers who ordered them. These are being done by a local shop to us and are going to be very high quality. No 1-800-Get-Tshirts.com or anything here. These are shirts that should last quite a long time, and look great to boot! We plan on having these on sale on the website as well after the orders are going out in case you have friends who want to get one too!

    Outbound Lighting Focal Series  ---- Discussion -----ks06.jpg

    I look forward to giving you a few more updates before we get to close out this Kickstarter in full, and all of you get to be riding with the lights. We are all extremely anxious to get this product launched and get business rolling, however because we are an engineering company first, quality is the number one goal. Thank you all so much for your patience, can guarantee you will not be disappointed. 😊

  153. #353
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    ...it is currently looking like we will not be shipping until the middle of May 2018. The reason for this is mostly out of our control,...
    This is an all too frequent problem in the electronics industry, especially with small startups. It's difficult to imagine all of the different problems that can occur.

    A large manufacturer can put in an order for huge quantities of the part that you need and the lead time that you were promised gets bumped way out into the future while the large company gets the parts that you were promised. Then when you do actually receive your parts they might not meet their specifications and you have to return them. Or they misread your order and made you the wrong version of the part which doesn't fit your PWB.

    Then the parts companies also have their own supply and equipment problems, not to mention possible strikes by employees.

    I can remember back in the late 1990's auto manufacturers started putting hundreds of semiconductors into autos, often performing
    unnecessary things such as auto dimming interior lights, etc. It caused a semiconductor shortage and computer power supply manufacturers were scrambling to find the semiconductors to keep their production lines running. There was the grey market where people were selling semiconductors at prices way above the manufacturers price. Basically they were scalping semiconductors.

    So have some empathy and patience for Outbound Lighting.

    Scott Novak
    Last edited by Scott Novak; 03-27-2018 at 12:30 PM.

  154. #354
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    How about an grey or even white t-shirt?

  155. #355
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Novak View Post
    This is an all too frequent problem in the electronics industry, especially with small startups. It's difficult to imagine all of the different problems that can occur.
    Certainly is. We anticipated some delays, but not this big. Was a bummer, but nothing much we can do except accept it and keep pushing forward. Can't get mad at our supplier since they are beholden to the components distributor, who are beholden to the original source, if not another layer or two of sales in between.

    However it is one of the reasons we selected a PCBA supplier that is only a few hours away rather than overseas. They are a few bucks more expensive, but the ability to meet directly with them, check out the assembly process, meet the employees, and get them excited about the product is well worth the couple thousand in savings.

    How about an grey or even white t-shirt?
    Certainly a possibility in the future. Right now just doing a run of enough shirts to go around for the Kickstarter backers who ordered it, some to sell on the site, and some for personal use. Once we are shipping and finally "open for business" we can definitely look into more colors and designs.

  156. #356
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    Got our first run of t-shirts in! These feel absolutely incredible. Kyle (ZenkiS14) refused to let me compromise on the shirts to save a few bucks. I'm glad he did! Literally the most comfortable shirt I own now. Just happy it has my company logo on there.

    Anyways, if you guys want them, they are available on the webstore now and shipping!

    AVAILABLE HERE!

    Outbound Lighting Focal Series  ---- Discussion -----tshirtfrontks.jpg

    Outbound Lighting Focal Series  ---- Discussion -----tshirtbackks.jpg
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Outbound Lighting Focal Series  ---- Discussion -----tshirtback.jpg  


  157. #357
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    Got our first run of t-shirts in! These feel absolutely incredible. Kyle (ZenkiS14) refused to let me compromise on the shirts to save a few bucks. I'm glad he did! Literally the most comfortable shirt I own now. Just happy it has my company logo on there.

    Anyways, if you guys want them, they are available on the webstore now and shipping!

    AVAILABLE HERE!

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Click image for larger version. 

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    I saw the email, hopefully yours is in the wash now after 3 days of use

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
    Life on a bike doesn't begin till the sun goes down.


  158. #358
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    hahahaha I wore mine for 3 days straight...it was glorious.

    Edit: WTF at the product pics on website! Ugh, lol FML

  159. #359
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    Got our first run of t-shirts in!
    Caps. You need caps. I need a cap. No mesh.
    I will suffer no butt-hurt fools!

  160. #360
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZenkiS14 View Post
    hahahaha I wore mine for 3 days straight...it was glorious.

    Edit: WTF at the product pics on website! Ugh, lol FML
    Um... I wouldnt have admitted that. Outbound at least has an excuse for wearing the same clothes for 3 days.

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  161. #361
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    Anticipating the arrival of my new Outbound lights I got an accessory for the road version!
    Mole

    Outbound Lighting Focal Series  ---- Discussion -----001.jpg

  162. #362
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    Not only do you have a huge assortment of lights, you have a huge selection of bikes!!
    GoPro adapters for bike lights http://www.pacifier.com/~kevinb/index.html

  163. #363
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vancbiker View Post
    Not only do you have a huge assortment of lights, you have a huge selection of bikes!!
    Are you realllllyyyyy a biker if you don't though?

  164. #364
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    Are you realllllyyyyy a biker if you don't though?
    In my case "hoarder" may be a more appropriate term!
    Mole

  165. #365
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRMOLE View Post
    In my case "hoarder" may be a more appropriate term!
    Mole
    Checkmate (3 bikes in the other room...lol)




  166. #366
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    ok thats my dream "man cave" right there lol.
    Life on a bike doesn't begin till the sun goes down.


  167. #367
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    Are you realllllyyyyy a biker if you don't though?
    True! I only have 4 and sad to say only 2 are in active rotation
    GoPro adapters for bike lights http://www.pacifier.com/~kevinb/index.html

  168. #368
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    Got myself a lightbox a week or two ago, and finally got some time to update the product photos!

    Good news is that we are on the schedule with the PCBA production facility in Kansas City for early to mid-May. Barring any issues that come up in assembly (very low risk) we are on track to have all the orders fulfilled by the end of May!


















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    Awesome news!!!

  170. #370
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    Damn the anticipation is overwhelming. I wanna light up the streets!!! Looks amazing!

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  171. #371
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    I think it's time for an email update (for those that don't hit the forum thread.

    Seriously, I just want to hear you say again that shipments will be going out SOON...
    I will suffer no butt-hurt fools!

  172. #372
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    Yea, we'll try to get an email blast out soon. We have been sending updates via Kickstarter.

  173. #373
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flamingtaco View Post
    I think it's time for an email update (for those that don't hit the forum thread.

    Seriously, I just want to hear you say again that shipments will be going out SOON...
    I agree.

    Will put something together tomorrow morning to blast both KS and email to the pre-orders.

    Overall things are still looking up. Awaiting the final production date of the PCB's which will occur within the next week or two. In the meantime all of our reflectors and lenses showed up, which means we have every single "hard" part in stock and ready to go. Literally only waiting on the PCB's.

    Our shipping boxes also arrived, custom made locally and stamped with our logo. Surprisingly after the initial logo fee, it's the same price as buying a generic box from ULine. So everything will be shipped in a perfect fitting box for the carrying case. I'm kinda proud of it. Looks killer.

    We also underwent some pretty extreme thermal and water ingress testing. Thermally handled things like a champ. In the extreme heat and no air movement, the integrated thermistor does it's job and pulls back power when it detects the LED getting too hot. Water ingress was an interesting story.

    Outbound Lighting Focal Series  ---- Discussion -----water-intrusion.jpg

    On the IP4 setting it worked great, no obvious signs of water intrustion. IP4 rating states "Water splashing against the enclosure from any direction shall have no harmful effect." However once we ramped the testing up to IP5 water was starting to get in. IP5 is powerful water jets spraying against the housing in all directions. I'll get a video of the testing up soon on the YouTube channel, but it was a pretty intense water pressure jet spraying directly onto the status light pipe section. Some teardown reveals that the water was starting to get in from that section, as well as some fogging due to the extreme humidity difference.

    Outbound Lighting Focal Series  ---- Discussion -----water-intrusion-02.jpg

    So I am REALLY glad we did this testing, I have a number of things that will be done to prevent water intrusion, and make it truly IP5 or IP6 rated for water ingress. We will be adding an automotive gore patch to the housing after machining out a small hole to allow the pressure differential to be equal between the outside and inside. This means on a rainy day or really humid day, the pressure can equalize and prevent the inside of the light fogging up.

    We will also be adding the additional step of conformal coating the driver board to add an extra layer of protection and reliability. I am not aware of any other bike lights that are currently doing this, although fairly common in the automotive space.

    There are two other things I will be doing to address water ingress around the status light to prevent it from happening period.

    Good news is that none of these things will delay production at all. They are all just steps that are being added to the production process. We don't have to redesign any parts, or tool up new parts.

    ----------------------------

    I hope this does show that when we say we are testing our lights, we aren't simply just running them under a faucet for a second or two and calling it IP69 rated, or hitting it with a garden hose like you see in almost every bike light review. Real IP rating testing is quite unforgiving. I'll get the video up soon, but you'll be surprised how intense IP4 and IP5 water intrusion testing is, it's really high pressure and high intensity streams of water blasting the housing from all sides.

    Testing like this is what we believe will really set our lights apart. When we say reliable and durable, we mean it.

  174. #374
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    Outbound,

    You don't see conformal coating very often with consumer grade or aftermarket electronics. Normally that is reserved for military, industrial, medical, or other high reliability electronics.

    About the only thing that you haven't done yet is to pot the electronics in thermally conductive potting compound. That not only drastically improves thermal transfer, but it also drastically improves vibrational resistance. But it's possible that your mount may provide enough isolation that it won't prove necessary.

    If you ever do decide to pot your electronics do NOT give in to temptation and try to cure it faster at elevated temperatures. That can cause swelling of the potting compound which can deform the case and/or put addition pressure against some components. Room temperature cure only.

    Those water tests are impressive.

    I used a gallon jug to pour water on a Serfas taillight at a distance of 1 foot. A serious amount of water ingressed around the power switch. I've had their tailights fail before due to water infiltration on the PWB, which caused a conductive layer to form across the PWB that shorted out part of the circuit and caused it to fail.

    It's refreshing to see a manufacturer that actually cares about reliability.

    Scott Novak

  175. #375
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    Your transparency is refreshing! Everything about this light looks awesome, every detail is in place. One of the rare occasions when you are buying something without that 'if they only did it like that' moments.
    Great job guys!

    Sent from my SM-N910C using Tapatalk
    Last edited by MrBucan; 05-06-2018 at 11:00 PM.

  176. #376
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    Thanks for the kind words guys. Will admit I was super bummed out for like an hour or so when it was failing the testing. Then realized well, glad I caught it now rather than after we've shipped 180 of these things! As well as the fact it was an easy fix, won't add a lot of cost, and will only increase reliability.

    I really honestly don't want any of these lights returned for failures or anything, it's just a big headache for business. I'd rather be focused on designing the NEXT great light instead of dealing with warranty and returns. So if it means a couple more bucks per light, and a few more minutes of production time... worth it.

  177. #377
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    Is there something special about the PCB's that there are component supply issues? We can get new custom ones at work for a LED project we're working on in no time.

  178. #378
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerpss View Post
    Is there something special about the PCB's that there are component supply issues? We can get new custom ones at work for a LED project we're working on in no time.
    Guess I am probably using some poorly picked terminology. The PCB's themselves showed up in no time, it's all the components that have the long lead time. Notably the actual LED chips themselves.

    Funny story that actually. I now realize why the lead time probably shot up tremendously, all the new 2019 RAM 1500 LED headlights have the Altilon chips in them. So I have a feeling Automotive Lighting bought up most of the stock!

  179. #379
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    Expected delivery date = ?

  180. #380
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    I'm curious about components back-order procedures. You place an order at a dealer (suppose the order is rather small, 500 LEDs), pay. And then what if the dealer doesn't ship the order by some date? During the order, can you demand some form of monetary warranty for not shipping the order by some date? I can imagine the dealer could "forward" any such monetary claims further to manufacturer. Or they normally explicitly disclaim any responsibilities?

  181. #381
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    You are pretty much at the mercy of the suppliers unless you are a huge company with lots of clout. They will promise you anything, but it arrives when it arrives. I would order from multiple suppliers and then when one batch arrived I would cancel the other orders that didn't arrive by the promised date. Even then the first order to arrive would be a month late. I once had to wait a year for a part that was promised a 6 week delivery time. Sometimes you have to buy on the grey market above the manufacturers wholesale price to even get any.

    At one company that I worked for we even had to change the design because we couldn't get the part in time.

    Scott A. Novak

  182. #382
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    Quote Originally Posted by abvgdee View Post
    I'm curious about components back-order procedures. You place an order at a dealer (suppose the order is rather small, 500 LEDs), pay. And then what if the dealer doesn't ship the order by some date? During the order, can you demand some form of monetary warranty for not shipping the order by some date? I can imagine the dealer could "forward" any such monetary claims further to manufacturer. Or they normally explicitly disclaim any responsibilities?
    Like what Scott said, the electrical designer releases the bill of materials (BOM), the SMT production house goes over the BOM, works with big distributors like Arrow or Future Electronics to figure out the lead time on components. Even some very random components like a small capacitor might have a lead time of 18-26 weeks. So the SMT house and the designer go back and forth trying to eliminate the long lead items, this what delayed us at first, a few capacitors and small components got redesigned, and re-tested before releasing a final BOM to the SMT house.

    Then the components are ordered, the SMT house waits until everything arrives, then puts together production kits. Basically big carts that have all the components on reels that are ready to load into the SMT machine. Currently as of 5 days ago the LED board production kit was released to production and awaiting a production schedule date. I believe our driver board is about ready to get released into production as well.

    It is surprising to a lot of people that electrical stuff is often the longest lead items out there. But like scott said, we are at the mercy of the distributor essentially, and often they focus more on the multi-million dollar contracts rather than the breadcrumbs that small run stuff like ours gives them.

    Expected delivery date = ?
    Still at the mercy of the SMT supply house. Fingers crossed still delivering in less than 2 weeks. I'm getting anxious.

  183. #383
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    The above all jives with my experiences too in getting specific electonic/electrical items. One conversation I had after finding out a timer relay had a 16 week lead time.

    Me: Why 16 weeks?
    Manufacturer: Well, not much demand.
    Me: Wanna know why you don't have much demand?
    Manufacturer: Uh, why?
    Me: Because your lead time is too long!

    Perfect Catch-22.

    And just like the above examples this required a minor board re-design because the footprint of the socket for a more easily available timer relay was larger. Delayed the project a bit and so on.

    Outbound appears to be doing as much as a small startup could be expected to do.
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  184. #384
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Novak View Post
    I once had to wait a year for a part that was promised a 6 week delivery time.
    I'm glad I don't promise to customers (or design) any electronics! May be manufacturers should really be more open about their fabrication capacities...

    Thank you guys for clarifications!

  185. #385
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    So funny we are having this discussion today. Literally just got an email from our SMT house saying that the LED board is set for production on Wednesday (7 jobs ahead of it on the schedule currently) however the main IC for the driver board was scheduled to show up on the 10th to the supplier and then immediately sent to the SMT house. However apparently it has not even left the factory yet. Just an example of the stuff that we have no control over.

    However LED boards basically done soon! I'm going to have to really clean up our assembly area more and get things in place. It's almost time to get cranking! Got 180+ orders to fulfill between the kickstarter backers and the pre-orders. I'm hoping to get at least 40-50 done a day, then allow the process improvements to kick in once we really start figuring out how to crank these things out. Target assembly time is under 10 minutes per light when done in batch construction. Part of the entire design of the light was to make it easy enough to assemble so that we'll basically never have to think about outsourcing our labor.

    Also to those of you on the fence. As soon as the first orders start going out to the kickstarter backers, the pre-ordering is over, and the discount is removed. So consider this a few week warning.

  186. #386
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    One saving grace is that circuit board quality has greatly improved. In the early 80's we would often see shorts between circuit foils because the etching wasn't complete. It was so bad that we tested EVERY single raw circuit board for shorts before sending the boards to assembly.

    Scott Novak

  187. #387
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    Hey Matt,
    Was wondering if you have parts available to put together a road and trail production sample with the 5x emitter and blending lens? Would be great if you could entertain us with some true to production beam shots and lux measurements while we wait (patiently).
    Mole

  188. #388
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    Yeeey, survey is out, so close to having the best light in my city if i only had ds500 at my back, to bad its discontinued Could you OL make something similar?
    Think i got hooked on bike lights

    Sent from my SM-N910C using Tapatalk

  189. #389
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRMOLE View Post
    Hey Matt,
    Was wondering if you have parts available to put together a road and trail production sample with the 5x emitter and blending lens? Would be great if you could entertain us with some true to production beam shots and lux measurements while we wait (patiently).
    Mole
    I did go for a walk in my backyard with the trail version to give it a shot. I'm hoping to hit a trail here soon to get some good pics with a real camera instead of my iphone. Hard to find time with a 3 month old baby! It's still maddening that I will basically never pickup the very subtle light that your eye sees off to the side on a camera.

    https://www.instagram.com/p/BizzLXuB...tboundlighting

    One neat thing about the silicone material and my curved lens design, is that it is throwing light beyond 180*. I honestly didn't really plan this in, but it's been a nice side effect. Is it enough to consider not using a helmet light if you like looking behind you to see 40' away? Nope. But it's enough that your periphery vision has light to work with and pick up objects near you, so with that combined with the large light field that fills the binocular vision really does make it so that your vision is almost tricked into thinking you are riding at sunset/low-light.

    I was feeling kinda bummed about missing our deadlines and the looming massive production schedule ahead, but getting outside and using the light that I've now spent over a year (and a lot of money) on designing and producing put a smile on my face. Really looking forward to others first impressions.

  190. #390
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrBucan View Post
    Yeeey, survey is out, so close to having the best light in my city if i only had ds500 at my back, to bad its discontinued Could you OL make something similar?
    Think i got hooked on bike lights

    Sent from my SM-N910C using Tapatalk
    I mean... if people really pay $230 for a tail light I'll have to seriously consider it!

  191. #391
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    I mean... if people really pay $230 for a tail light I'll have to seriously consider it!
    To be honest, that light was overpriced, but i like that you could make your own patterns and it was realy visible even during the day. But there is no need for programming in headlight if the lumen lvls are setup good. One could even say so for tail lights...

    Sent from my SM-N910C using Tapatalk

  192. #392
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrBucan View Post
    To be honest, that light was overpriced, ....
    Not a fair statement. Yes, the light was expensive, but not overpriced. Overpriced would imply that the manufacturer was taking excessive profit from the product and that it could sell for less. It is rare that a manufacturer ceases production of overly profitable products.

    I'm quite sure that Designshine looked at the hard costs associated with his product and the hours invested and realized that there was not enough profit in it to make it worthwhile to continue production.
    GoPro adapters for bike lights http://www.pacifier.com/~kevinb/index.html

  193. #393
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    My mistake, i guess i used wrong adjective, not my mother language so excuse me. I am sure the price was fair compared to his expenses, he made those lights in small numbers so costs must be higher compared to comercial lights. I just think something similar could be made at a lower price point. I dont make lights, so thats just my guess, but would like something similar.

    Sorry for the offtopic. There are still plenty of good tail lights, but not a lot of road lights, i dont know any at a price point of Focal Series with its features.

    Sent from my SM-N910C using Tapatalk

  194. #394
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post

    I was feeling kinda bummed about missing our deadlines and the looming massive production schedule ahead, but getting outside and using the light that I've now spent over a year (and a lot of money) on designing and producing put a smile on my face. Really looking forward to others first impressions.
    Most new lights that I've ordered (especially preorders), even from existing manufacturers end up missing initial projected release dates. Part of the game that you shouldn't feel bad about. Taking the time to post pictures and explaining the situation always helps. Appreciate you keeping us informed!
    Mole

  195. #395
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    If you want to capture a photo which shows more of the low lux light off to the edge, you are going to need to perform some photographic trickery in the form of a high dynamic range (HDR) photo. You will need to put your camera on a tripod and depending on your camera's settings you may be able to just tell it to take an HDR photo or you may have to take 3 images with different exposure settings and then combine them together in your computer. Now this is a trick, no bones about it, but if you manually adjust your exposure and computer HDR settings and use the same settings every time, you will be able to make images which can honestly allow you to compare different light outputs from your light or a competitor's light. I have one of your lights on order and I have a lot of buddies with a wide range of lights so I am hoping to do a comparison review this summer with the above methodology.

    Thank you for the hard work and frequent status updates, you are filling me with much more confidence that this will be a good product than I have had from my previous Kickstarter experiences.
    Last edited by Precision Man; 05-18-2018 at 05:24 AM.

  196. #396
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    Offtopic below.

    Quote Originally Posted by Precision Man View Post
    I have one of your lights on order and I have a lot of buddies with a wide range of lights so I am hoping to do a comparison review this summer with the above methodology.
    Sounds like you are going to make it a (rather big) comparison database project.

    This methology is *certainly* better than no HDR, and better than no comparison, and is probably great for small light comparison job. But, if you consider it as a big *project*, there is a problem here:

    With your scenery, your camera and HDR software settings fixed by *your* setup, everybody is restricted to use such photos from *only you*. If I currently have a headlight that you don't have, and I'd like to see how a new light compares with it, your photos are useless for me.

    There are few additional downsides.
    1. What if I *love* the sharp cutoff, and I'd like to see, how much thinner the new cutoff is, compared with my old light? The whole cutoff line, its sides and the center. Essentially, I want the wall beamshot here.
    2. How much brighter the hotspot (or a bit above, or some other direction) of the new light is? In numbers, like 140lux vs. 90lux of my old light. Your HDR-blended greys (from that mega-powerful professional photo software) won't tell, even if it would be a wall shot.
    3. Next month that great public scenery place that you found, will be renovated, so all appearance will change. There is a new light that you absolutely want to add to your comparison database. Will you re-shoot all your old lights with new scenery?
    4. (new=UPD; re-phrase of the main problem) I want to contribute my beamshots to your project. Or you abandon your project in a year, and I want to take over it, and add my beamshots. But I live far away, I don't have your expensive photo software, and my camera has different beautifying contrast firmware. I can't, because everything is locked on you. Wouldn't it be sweet if people could add to and reuse your efforts?

    I think I see the solution. It's not easy, it's laborious. But it seems obvious to me...
    Last edited by abvgdee; 05-19-2018 at 05:47 AM. Reason: 4th downside added

  197. #397
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    Quote Originally Posted by abvgdee View Post
    I want the wall beamshot here
    The purpose of the reflector design is to archive a great beam on the floor. Wall beamshots are useless to show the real beam shape.

  198. #398
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    Quote Originally Posted by angerdan View Post
    The purpose of the reflector design is to archive a great beam on the floor. Wall beamshots are useless to show the real beam shape.
    Another problem with the wall shots with this light in particular is the blending lens. Up close on a wall it looks like a lot of artifacts and lines, however when in actual use, it all comes together in a homogeneous beam pattern. Can often see this with newer LED headlights on cars too. They look funky up close on a garage wall, but on the road all comes together.

  199. #399
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    I saw a new Dodge Ram yesterday and thought “hey there’s my bike lights” lol

  200. #400
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    I got 500 LED boards sitting in my production area now..... butttt still missing 500 driver boards. As I mentioned earlier, the processor chip hadn't even left the factory. However got word that they are showing up today (Friday) and so that means the driver boards should be run and shipped by the mid to end of next week.

    So what does that mean? Assembly time! I hope to still meet the goal of getting the first units shipped out by the end of May, even if it's 11:50pm on the 31st!

    Meanwhile I did go for a quick ride tonight, literally the first ride I've had since.... November? Long winter, new baby, this new business, and lots of design work for other projects meant the air deflated out of my Stache and dust collected. Knocked all that off and had a great hour riding around.

    The light is meeting all my targets, it is clearly a light that won't win allocates when comparing pure numbers or distance awards because of how I directed the energy with a focus on homogeneity and smooth blend. What is extremely apparent after riding around for as little as 5 minutes, is how much I absolutely hate spot like lights. The wide width and homogeneous beam really does make it just a lot more natural to ride with than a typical spot beam pattern. This is 100% going to be a light that needs people to ride it to really SEE the massive difference a properly shaped beam pattern will do.

    Something I really pray reviewers in magazines and online publications will actually do rather than just shooting a beam shot, measuring a lux, and calling it a day.

    Anyways, onto some pics!

    Outbound Lighting Focal Series  ---- Discussion -----trailhead.jpg

    Don't mind the tree, tough to do this alone out in the woods!
    Outbound Lighting Focal Series  ---- Discussion -----wideshot.jpg

    I wanted to take a pic looking down off angle with the previous picture as a reference for how off-angle the post is in relation to where the light is aimed. This is a better representation of what your eye would actually see.
    Outbound Lighting Focal Series  ---- Discussion -----off-angle.jpg


    This is a bad picture of the road/cutoff beam pattern, didn't realize it was out of focus until I got home. Anyways, compare this to the next photo which is the Trail to get a better idea of how the intensities and compression of light energy is different. Both photos shot at locked settings (1/25, f3.5, ISO 6200)
    Outbound Lighting Focal Series  ---- Discussion -----cutoff.jpg

    Outbound Lighting Focal Series  ---- Discussion -----trail.jpg

    The road version compresses all that light that goes upward in the trail, and focuses it more on overcoming ambient light found in cities, towns, greenways, etc. while the trail relies on the fact that it doesn't have to overcome ambient, and your eyes can adjust to the dark much quicker.

    Just a reminder to those sitting on the fence. As soon as these lights start getting to the kickstarter backers, the 15% pre-order is overrrrrr.

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