New lights coming - what does this mean?- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    New lights coming - what does this mean?

    Looks like there will be a fresh crop of 1000 lumen lights coming out this summer in time for fall. Here is one from NightRider that also offers 1200 lumens:

    http://acidinmylegs.blogspot.com/200...ed-lights.html

    My guess this will be priced in the $500 or so range.

    I'm thinking that this will have several effects:

    1. The price on all current lights will come down.
    2. The price on the Lupines at the high end - who have sort of owned the high bright top end LED market with the Betty at about $900 will have to come down dramatically - into that $400-500 range.
    3. Less bright but top end lights in the $400 range - Tesla, 800L, Seca 700 etc... will drop to sub $400.

    So, I'm thinking informed procrastination might be the ticket here. For me, up in the frozen northland, where the sun doesn't set until almost 9pm for most of the summer, I *really* don't need additional light until fall. My current lights will be adequate to ride on hot summer nights (400L plus 600L). I think I want to wind up with about 1500 lumens total between helmet and bars, and I want to have a better helmet setup than I have now (400L on helmet).

    So, I'm thinking waiting a few months is the big ticket, prices will drop big and the output will be up big.

    Any holes in my thinking?

    J.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnJ80
    ...Looks like there will be a fresh crop of 1000 lumen lights coming out this summer in time for fall. Here is one from NightRider that also offers 1200 lumens:

    http://acidinmylegs.blogspot.com/200...ed-lights.html

    My guess this will be priced in the $500 or so range...
    This looks to be an interesting offering from NiteRider. ( * Nice review by James by the way ).
    I can't wait to see what the battery will look like and what it will weigh. Looks like the battery will have a quick release feature and be user programmable .. ...Interesting. Can't wait to see what the entire package will look like ( lighthead, mounting hardware, charger, battery+mount ) and what it will co$t. I'm glad to see NiteRider has decided to compete in the Bike Lighting Industry again..

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do
    I can't wait to see what the battery will look like and what it will weigh. Looks like the battery will have a quick release feature and be user programmable

    I love the concept of a fixed wire to head unit system with a battery pack that just swaps out. This will fix the problem of having to route cables and zip-tie/velcro when you change batteries which has always been a bit of a PITA when doing laps in 24-hour and 12-hour races. Will allow a light weight race system.

    I also think that being able to custom program the UI on your PC will be must have. I can't stand having to cycle through modes when often all I use are one or two.

    All that said my experience with Niterider is that they are expensive and under powered relative to others as well as sometimes bulky. I wonder if these new lights will follow the same formula?

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    I agree, this NightRider offering looks really cool.

    Looking at the bigger picture - until recently, only Lupine with the Betty was in the 1200+ lumen category and there really wasn't much else until their 920 lumen Wilma.

    Now, in the 1000+ lumens are this NightRider one (1200 lumens), the Photon max extreme (1350 lumens) (both at ~$500 price point). Now the Asian knockoffs/same-as-excepts are starting to show up close to this with Airbikes 900 lumen offering at ~$250 or so!

    That means Lupine's price is going to have to come down a lot or their sales will.

    I too really like the idea of the snap out battery mount with the proviso that it adds very little weight. part of the hassle of riding at night is getting all the other stuff ready to go (cold weather gear usually, batteries on the bike, mounting the lights etc....).

    Exciting times.

    J.

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    The red flag for me is the complicated electronics in the battery, instead of the lighthead. That indicates some expensive battery replacements and expensive spares as well. Sometimes the best advice is to KISS.

  6. #6
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    Nice stuff from nightrider. I hope with the dual head you can independently select wide or narrow.
    200l is a nice bump for the minewt, a good entry level light for roadies.
    The battery indicator on the USB was needed too, though it still needs a low battery warning.
    Wonder if there will be some sales soon?

  7. #7
    BBW
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    There are many factors involved in the price. Saying this, I don't expect Lupine's price to go down since they don't only sell "lumens", they are WAY more than that as far as CS, quality, craftmanship, light pattern, bling, etc

    I don't care if NR comes with a 3000 lumen light, I will still be riding (and trusting) my Lupines. And that's MY opinion for what is worth.

    It is good that LEDs keep evolving and that is good for all of us

  8. #8
    GeoMan
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    Quote Originally Posted by BBW
    There are many factors involved in the price. Saying this, I don't expect Lupine's price to go down since they don't only sell "lumens", they are WAY more than that as far as CS, quality, craftmanship, light pattern, bling, etc

    I don't care if NR comes with a 3000 lumen light, I will still be riding (and trusting) my Lupines. And that's MY opinion for what is worth.

    It is good that LEDs keep evolving and that is good for all of us
    Agreed!
    GeoMan
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    It's going to have to go down - there really is no way around it. There are some things that will allow them to get a premium, but they can't be 2X as much. That's simply ridiculous. Their choices are to amp up the lumens even more (big up), to keep the lumens the same and be smaller and lighter than everyone else, or to reduce the price.

    I would think that at 1500 lumens and up, there are diminishing returns from more lumens.

    This is not particularly difficult or complex technology. Batteries are being pushed harder in many other applications than this in a BIG way so it will be hard to have an advantage there. Lighting is well understood in terms of the optics etc... The new wrinkle is LED technology which is maturing at a rapid pace. All those things argue for the leveling out of the inverted bathtub curve and it will become much more a battle of price (because there is little differentiation any more) and service.

    I understand brand loyalty (i.e. fanboy etc..) but it is going to have limited impact on pricing where there is a field with so many competent competitors - Nightflux, Night Rider, Lupine, Dinotte, etc...

    I'm thinking procrastination is a very good strategy at this point.

    J.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by BBW
    There are many factors involved in the price. Saying this, I don't expect Lupine's price to go down since they don't only sell "lumens", they are WAY more than that as far as CS, quality, craftmanship, light pattern, bling, etc

    I don't care if NR comes with a 3000 lumen light, I will still be riding (and trusting) my Lupines. And that's MY opinion for what is worth.

    It is good that LEDs keep evolving and that is good for all of us
    First, I have nothing against Lupine. I'm glad you like your lights. I like mine as well and have no plan on buying any others for the moment. The commercial bike light industry sells to a select and limited market place. With quality and lumen output getting better every year and with other companies selling comparable bike lights, I feel that Lupine will eventually have to lower their prices if they want to continue selling light systems in such a limited market place. That goes for other companies as well. It might take several more years but it will happen. This new offering from NiteRider is just the first letter in, "The writing on the wall". Personally I can't wait to see what Dinotte comes ups with in response. I like the twin P-7 setup that NR is offering as 1200lm is quite the "Cat's meow" when it comes to bar lamps. Add to that the ability to customize the output any way you want and you have a product that will catch the attention of the riders willing to spend big $$$ on a fancy bike light. With all this said I don't think I will be buying another bar system until someone makes a duel MC-E setup or product similar to the NR. Bells and whistles I'd like to see on a bar system: 1200 to 1500lm for boost. Choice of battery size. Optional plug in remote bar switch. A quick release "over-the-stem"tilting bar mount. A choice of user menus, either preprogrammed or user programmed. Added plus for user programing. Oh yeah, all electronics still need to be kept within the light-engine ( or kept separate from the battery ).

  11. #11
    BBW
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do
    First, I have nothing against Lupine. I'm glad you like your lights. I like mine as well and have no plan on buying any others for the moment. The commercial bike light industry sells to a select and limited market place. With quality and lumen output getting better every year and with other companies selling comparable bike lights, I feel that Lupine will eventually have to lower their prices if they want to continue selling light systems in such a limited market place. That goes for other companies as well. It might take several more years but it will happen. This new offering from NiteRider is just the first letter in, "The writing on the wall". Personally I can't wait to see what Dinotte comes ups with in response. I like the twin P-7 setup that NR is offering as 1200lm is quite the "Cat's meow" when it comes to bar lamps. Add to that the ability to customize the output any way you want and you have a product that will catch the attention of the riders willing to spend big $$$ on a fancy bike light. With all this said I don't think I will be buying another bar system until someone makes a duel MC-E setup or product similar to the NR. Bells and whistles I'd like to see on a bar system: 1200 to 1500lm for boost. Choice of battery size. Optional plug in remote bar switch. A quick release "over-the-stem"tilting bar mount. A choice of user menus, either preprogrammed or user programmed. Added plus for user programing. Oh yeah, all electronics still need to be kept within the light-engine ( or kept separate from the battery ).
    Yeah I understand what you say, good things will come as time goes by. 2 days ago I was riding at night, Wilma with 18 degree lens on the bars (dimmed to 60%) and the Tesla on the helmet dimmed to 15%? I really don't need more when riding with other people and I can tell you that I ride as fast at night that during the day and I do the same technical stuff. I was amazed (again); the Tesla last for 24h on the low setting!!!!!
    Yes, there are so many good lights out there that my head spin if I think about the options but I'm so happy that I will not be buying lights in years.

    Anyway, they will get more powerful, affordable, small, better light pattern, etc. It's a win-win for all!!!!!!
    Keep having fun

  12. #12
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    This is going to be interesting. 900+ lumen lights out now (or announced) from 5+ manufacturers. I wonder what Dinotte is going to offer. I'm out of the country right now, but when I get back, I may give them a call.

    J.

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    So for less than $400 i can get 1800 lumens from 2 Airbikes p7 900 lumens = it's a no brainer for me

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by wheeler26
    So for less than $400 i can get 1800 lumens from 2 Airbikes p7 900 lumens = it's a no brainer for me
    I doubt that they are really 900 lumens (this would mean they have a high bin P7 and are driven at max I think)- you might need three?

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cino
    The red flag for me is the complicated electronics in the battery, instead of the lighthead. That indicates some expensive battery replacements and expensive spares as well. Sometimes the best advice is to KISS.
    Going over the review for the second time I noticed that James has put an update at the end of the original review. It now seems that NiteRider is going to put the driver electronics within the light-heads. It also seems that there are going to be several battery sizes that will work with either the 600 or 1200 Pro. According to James only the electronics that charge the battery will be in the docking station. The battery will just be a battery. That means for those of us that wish to buy batteries elsewhere, there should be no big problem adapting the light to a generic Li-ion once you know the voltage range of the driver. Also ( according to James ) The 600 Pro will come with a 6-cell and the 1200 Pro comes with an 8-cell. There will also be a 4-cell. Supposedly all three batteries will work with either light...if true this is good news. Can't wait to see one of these ( 1200 Pro ) when they come out. Hopefully NiteRider will offer the 600 Pro with choice of reflector ( spot vs. flood ) for those who wish to helmet vs. bar mounting. So far NiteRider seems to be making some good choices. Let's hope they continue.

  16. #16
    GeoMan
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldass
    I doubt that they are really 900 lumens (this would mean they have a high bin P7 and are driven at max I think)- you might need three?
    I've been through this with Airbike several times and they assure me that these lights are fully 900 lumens.
    GeoMan
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by GEOMAN
    I've been through this with Airbike several times and they assure me that these lights are fully 900 lumens.
    The SSC website states P7 lumens is 700 typical and 900 max:
    http://www.seoulsemicon.com/en/produ...powerLEDp7.asp

    My understanding (and read of the SSC data sheet) is the D bin P7 has a max of 900 lumens (range of 800-900) and only E bin goes beyond this (900-1100lm). Most P7's lights about seem to be C bin (700-800lm).

    But to claim 900 lumens I would expect the Airbikes to be D bin or E bin. If D it is likely they are less than 900 lm. If E they could then claim higher (I didn't think E-bin was shipping and read somewhere they only produce bottom of the D bin so I doubt they are E).

    Therefore Airbike would have to provide D bin P7 Led's all from the D bin at max (where as they are likely somewhere between 800 to 900) and Airbike drive them to their potential, and only select leds at the max of the bin range, to achieve 900 lumens and this would be at the Led and not out the front.

    Or they could spec and get E bin and then in some cases the customer might actually get 1100lm if they were lucky and the driver was capable.

    Are you confident of this? What bin P7 leds do they install C, D, E? What range of the bin? How have they justified - technically their claims of 900lm? Am I reading the SSC specs wrong?

    Forgive me for being a skeptic....

    Heck of a good value bike light though.


    Edit: I guess what I was saying is that there is doubt in my mind, and I think with good reason, that Airbike SL2 lights are even close to 900lm. Be great if you could publish the actual Airbike lumens and technical facts behind it GEOMAN.
    Last edited by Coldass; 05-21-2009 at 02:09 AM.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldass
    Are you confident of this? What bin P7 leds do they install C, D, E? What range of the bin? How have they justified - technically their claims of 900lm? Am I reading the SSC specs wrong?
    SSC make ludicrously large bins. The V bin P4 (which has been due any day now, for a year) is 118 to 154lm (@350mA)... 30%.

    900 is merely the top limit of the bin here, but its the number most often quoted, most of the DX P7s. Typical would be better for the consumer, but as long as everyone is quoting max its not so bad.
    Here is a test for a 900lm P7. Oh dear, 740lm.
    http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...&postcount=229

    Niterider quote measured lumens so thats typical led + optics losses... so 800lm quoted may be 1000lm at the led. Likely noticeably brighter than a single P7 but its really hard to compare with different optics.

  19. #19
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    It means somebody over on the DIY forum has already done it

  20. #20
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    Another new 1000+ Lumen light - Jet Lites, although this one is HID.

    http://reviews.mtbr.com/blog/jet-lit...00-hid-review/

    I think you will see EVERY significant supplier of lights have one by the fall riding season.
    J.

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