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  1. #1
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    lights with 3000 plus lumens and wide beam pattern question

    With these new crop of lights such as the magicshine mj 906 which offer a 3000 lumen real world lumen count, is this enough light to run it on a helmet mount or bar mount alone? I currently have a 700 lumen nightrider on my helmet and a 900 lumen mj 872 which offers a very wide beam. After five years of service the 872 battery crapped out and I am ready for a brightness upgrade.

    I ride twisty singletrack in the Sonoran desert around Tucson AZ

    THX.

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    Oh yeah that's plenty of light to ride in either location you choose. BUT,,,, IMO much better option as an example,,,, would be two 1500 lumen lights. One on your lid , the other on your bars. As I have had a light fail on me mid ride and was saved by my second light I cant recommend enough for riders to use a two lamp set up. Also benefits are the bar light will cast shadows on uneven ground giving better perspective while the helmet light will light up where you are looking such as twisty single track. Most will have a flood light on the bars while having something with more punch on your helmet.

    Is it the MS 906 that you are interested in,,, just asking that anything in the 3000 lumen range will out power your NR 700 lumen light and you would need a little more output to have a beam that doesn't get lost in you bar lamp? What is your max budget?

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by indebt View Post
    ....Is it the MS 906 that you are interested in,,, just asking that anything in the 3000 lumen range will out power your NR 700 lumen light and you would need a little more output to have a beam that doesn't get lost in you bar lamp? What is your max budget?
    Adding what indebt said; I'm not sure yet if the 906 is actually putting out a "Real" 3000 lumen but with that said I'm sure it will be very bright and very cold white.

    I think the beam pattern on the 906 is designed for bar use. Once again using a lamp with that output off the bars has some negative effects which I'll mention.

    If the beam pattern is too wide there will be a lot of close in glare ( depending on how you aim it ). If true, your helmet lamp will lose some of it's usefulness as the brighter lamp will lessen your distance vision by constricting your pupils.

    The key to any good bike light combo is a balanced output coupled with the right optic patterns. My personal opinion is that a bar lamp with a maximum output of 1200-1500 lumen ( medium flood with at least 125ft of throw on high ) is all you need off of the bars. For a helmet lamp I believe that something at least 20% brighter with a medium spot pattern ( not a narrow spot ) can produce the most usable set-up. Of course a brighter helmet lamp could be even more useful depending on the set-up of the optics. Once again though with brighter output comes some potential problems so it is really important that the super bright lamps have some extra features like mode programmability, remote access ( wireless preferred ) and most importantly, the right optic pattern...a spot pattern that is confined but not a narrow spot.

    ggnarl, I think the set-up you had should of worked real well. The 872 has some nice flood and some decent throw for off the bars. I think if you wanted to improve your night riding perhaps a lamp like the new Gemini Duo-R ( with wireless remote...~1500 lumen ) mounted on your helmet would add a new dimension to your night riding. Then just buy a new battery for your 872 and you should be good.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do View Post



    ggnarl, I think the set-up you had should of worked real well. The 872 has some nice flood and some decent throw for off the bars. I think if you wanted to improve your night riding perhaps a lamp like the new Gemini Duo-R ( with wireless remote...~1500 lumen ) mounted on your helmet would add a new dimension to your night riding. Then just buy a new battery for your 872 and you should be good.
    Cat - Love the rest of your post but living in a similar climate (Phoenix) as the OP would recommend looking elsewhere for a light (Gemini Duo). Duo's are great lights but run hot and are prone to thermal step-down on summer night rides even with my vancbiker finned heat-sink mount. While mine is an older model the few reports I've seen on the 2016's have indicated they show this characteristic even in very cold temps.
    Mole
    Last edited by MRMOLE; 01-28-2016 at 05:02 PM.

  5. #5
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    I'd go glowworm x2 before duo for warm climate. Active thermal management is a lot better than Gemini's huge step down. As mole pointed out one of vanc bikers mounts will help a light handle the higher temps better.

    Problem is im seeing this more and more. People demand the impossible for lights. Small/ feather weight, high output lights that can handle any temps. It I literally impossible. You have to choose 2. Weight/size, output, or ability to handle the heat they generate. Plus manufacturers even with newest release lights dont get the xm-l2 emitters have been surpassed on output vs thermal efficiency.

    Even a light like the yinding, aftermarket battery, and finned gopro adapter will do well if budget is tight. A MJ 906 is way to big/heavy for helmet use and good helmet lamp as Cat said is key.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tigris99 View Post
    I'd go glowworm x2 before duo for warm climate. Active thermal management is a lot better than Gemini's huge step down. As mole pointed out one of vanc bikers mounts will help a light handle the higher temps better.

    Problem is im seeing this more and more. People demand the impossible for lights. Small/ feather weight, high output lights that can handle any temps. It I literally impossible. You have to choose 2. Weight/size, output, or ability to handle the heat they generate. Plus manufacturers even with newest release lights dont get the xm-l2 emitters have been surpassed on output vs thermal efficiency.

    Even a light like the yinding, aftermarket battery, and finned gopro adapter will do well if budget is tight. A MJ 906 is way to big/heavy for helmet use and good helmet lamp as Cat said is key.
    Yeah, I guess i missed the part about him riding in the desert. Perhaps a DiNotte XML-3 on the helmet would add some boost. Still, if it were me I'd be willing to give the Duo R a test run even if I was riding in the desert. Like was said you could add the vanc GoPro mount for some added heat management. Also keep in mind that not everyone is going to run the lamp at full power the whole time. Heck, if it doesn't work you should be able to return it without too much problem ( I would think ). ActionLED has always been a reliable vendor.

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    Im surprised the new duo is having heat issues that bad (as long as your moving). The lumens my yinding pushes on xp-l HI I just have to be cruising at 5-6mph in 60-70 deg weather and never an issue with vancs mount. Xp-l only run about 10-15% cooler, at just under 2000 lumens mine should be cooking. Its hot dont get me wrong, but stays below step down threshold no problem. Almost sounds like there is an internal thermal path issue or driver is set too low/not good thermal path for it if there is a cold temp step down problem.

  8. #8
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    I have the 906. it pulls ~24 W at high, so factor in losses (90% efficiency ? ) , that should put you somewhere about the 3 k Lumen range give or take a bit ( XmL2 are 140 L/W ? )
    It is a decent white - not blue, warm enuf.

    At high it washes out my 1000-1500 Lumen spot. Is it more than enough. But a brighter spot on the head would be nice too...

  9. #9
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    The actual output of the MJ-906 is 3200 lumens and the light head weight is 3.6oz. It should have very good cooling. It has a lot of surface area with the design they are using and it definitely has a wide beam pattern. At $160 with a wireless remote and tail light it's not a bad value.
    Jim Harger
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  10. #10
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    I use a candle power TT3000, huge beam pattern, very bright and so far has survived a few good crashes

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    Quote Originally Posted by heatstroke View Post
    I have the 906. it pulls ~24 W at high, so factor in losses (90% efficiency ? ) , that should put you somewhere about the 3 k Lumen range give or take a bit ( XmL2 are 140 L/W ? )
    It is a decent white - not blue, warm enuf.

    At high it washes out my 1000-1500 Lumen spot. Is it more than enough. But a brighter spot on the head would be nice too...
    Okay, so the 906 is able to output ~ 3K lumen...too bad they didn't offer a NW version.

    Quote Originally Posted by heatstroke View Post
    ...At high it washes out my 1000-1500 Lumen spot. Is it more than enough. But a brighter spot on the head would be nice too...
    That's exactly the problem that I've mentioned before; Too much output off the bars means you need even more output off the helmet.."If"..you still want to use a helmet lamp and have it be usable at distance. This is why I really don't need a brighter bar lamp. The ones I use have enough output to supply my needs when used on the bars.

    I'm still searching for an affordable ( higher quality) high-output helmet lamp with a "confined medium spot". I'd like something that can output at least 2.2K lumen. The Gloworm XS is in the ballpark but I'm waiting to see the wireless remote version ( when it comes out ). The new ITUO "Wiz XP3" should also be in the ball park ( when it comes out as well ). Should be some interesting options for high output / NW / affordable / wireless remote / triple emitter lamps by this summer.

  12. #12
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    NW version ?

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by heatstroke View Post
    NW version ?
    Neutral White

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do View Post
    Okay, so the 906 is able to output ~ 3K lumen...too bad they didn't offer a NW version.



    That's exactly the problem that I've mentioned before; Too much output off the bars means you need even more output off the helmet.."If"..you still want to use a helmet lamp and have it be usable at distance. This is why I really don't need a brighter bar lamp. The ones I use have enough output to supply my needs when used on the bars.

    I'm still searching for an affordable ( higher quality) high-output helmet lamp with a "confined medium spot". I'd like something that can output at least 2.2K lumen. The Gloworm XS is in the ballpark but I'm waiting to see the wireless remote version ( when it comes out ). The new ITUO "Wiz XP3" should also be in the ball park ( when it comes out as well ). Should be some interesting options for high output / NW / affordable / wireless remote / triple emitter lamps by this summer.
    Hey Cat,, I just received an email from Gemini a couple days ago. They said their going to start assembly on all their products line with neutral tint leds starting around March. The Olympia is supposed to be an honest 2100 lumens this year,(maybe less with neutral tint??) I'm also not a 100% sure if it will have the punch your looking for although it seems pretty good based on the beam shots I've seen. Wireless remote, and only $199. Anyway, just wanted to give you a heads up.

    Sorry,,, didn't mean to hijack your post with heatstroke..

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    Quote Originally Posted by indebt View Post
    Hey Cat,, I just received an email from Gemini a couple days ago. They said their going to start assembly on all their products line with neutral tint leds starting around March. The Olympia is supposed to be an honest 2100 lumens this year,(maybe less with neutral tint??) I'm also not a 100% sure if it will have the punch your looking for although it seems pretty good based on the beam shots I've seen. Wireless remote, and only $199. Anyway, just wanted to give you a heads up.

    Sorry,,, didn't mean to hijack your post with heatstroke..
    Thanks indebt. Yeah, I found out a couple days ago that Gemini intends to provide the option for "neutral white" emitters. I didn't know however that they were going to include their entire line of lamps.

    I was asked to try / review the new NW version of the Duo. I agreed so I suppose if the person sending me the email is "real" I should receive the Duo sometime this week.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do View Post
    Thanks indebt. Yeah, I found out a couple days ago that Gemini intends to provide the option for "neutral white" emitters. I didn't know however that they were going to include their entire line of lamps.

    I was asked to try / review the new NW version of the Duo. I agreed so I suppose if the person sending me the email is "real" I should receive the Duo sometime this week.
    The email I got was from Chris himself and that production wasn't going to start for at least another month,,, Hmmm?? He said they were not going to use cool white any more in their line up. Who is sending you this NW Duo?

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    Quote Originally Posted by indebt View Post
    The email I got was from Chris himself and that production wasn't going to start for at least another month,,, Hmmm?? He said they were not going to use cool white any more in their line up. Who is sending you this NW Duo?
    I really don't know. The person contacted me saying that knew the people who worked for Gemini and that he wanted to know if I was interested. I'm assuming it's a proto-type but really it's just suppose to be the same lamp only with NW emitter.

    I assumed that they were going to still be offering cool white but perhaps I'm wrong about that.

  18. #18
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    Understood. I think it is neutral, not a nice warm yellow, nor is it a harsh cold white. Considerably warmer than my ~5000k XPGs

  19. #19
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    I used to run dual lights but have switched to a single helmet mount.

    I have a TrailLED DS and typically only need to use the medium mode which is around 1500 lumens. I only have to switch up to high (3200 lumens) on fast downhills. In slower group rides, I don't like to use more than a few hundred lumens because of the shadows it creates for the rider in front of me.

    I also have a Gloworm X2 with NW emitters. Love the tint of this light and very happy with it so far. Prefer the button on the TrailLed over the remote button on this light. Beam pattern is good but slightly narrower with a tighter hotspot than the trailed.

    I like the simplicity of only have 1 light but there's always the risk of it failing and leaving you in the dark. I typically carry a small flashlight as a backup to get me home if needed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ggnarl View Post
    With these new crop of lights such as the magicshine mj 906 which offer a 3000 lumen real world lumen count, is this enough light to run it on a helmet mount or bar mount alone? I currently have a 700 lumen nightrider on my helmet and a 900 lumen mj 872 which offers a very wide beam. After five years of service the 872 battery crapped out and I am ready for a brightness upgrade.

    I ride twisty singletrack in the Sonoran desert around Tucson AZ

    THX.
    Have you figured out what your going to do?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ducman View Post
    I use a candle power TT3000, huge beam pattern, very bright and so far has survived a few good crashes
    I agree with the TT3000! It's a wall of light, and the flat battery pack is very easy to secure to your bike.

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    If you are looking for a 3000 lumens head lamp, take a gander at the Trail LED DS.

    I have the lower model, XXX,and like it. They are made in the USA, light weight, and have fast charge times.

    Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk

  23. #23
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    Sorry, I wasn't getting notifications about this thread and forgot about it! I ended up just getting a 6 cell magicshine battery for my MJ 872 and promptly came down with the flu.

    I realized my current set up was fine and spending another 300$ for a decent replacement was a waste. Thanks for all the input, that is a good point that if your bar light is too bright relative to your helmet light it will be counter productive due to your irises dilating, and things in the fore ground will reflect too much light making your long distance vision less effective.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by tigris99 View Post
    Im surprised the new duo is having heat issues that bad (as long as your moving). The lumens my yinding pushes on xp-l HI I just have to be cruising at 5-6mph in 60-70 deg weather and never an issue with vancs mount. Xp-l only run about 10-15% cooler, at just under 2000 lumens mine should be cooking. Its hot dont get me wrong, but stays below step down threshold no problem. Almost sounds like there is an internal thermal path issue or driver is set too low/not good thermal path for it if there is a cold temp step down problem.
    I have the old gemini olympia 2015 model, and it clocks down even when its -20C outside and not moving. I'd say the thermal cutoff is too agressive on all geminis. Or theres not enough meat to handle the juice. And mine is only 1500 real lumens. I'd like to reprogram my olympia if possible.
    Rule #9 // If you are out riding in bad weather, it means you are a badass. Period.

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    I just bought a Trail Led DS from a friend. I'll be comparing that to my Trail LED XXX soon enough. At first glance, it has the same throw, and wider beam patern. Now I have a light for friends to ride with me!

    = sent on the go =

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    I learned don't chase lumens. Chase beam pattern. Or beam tint. The 906 is ok but don't get caught in numbers.

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    People will get caught on lumens no matter what we try to explain. High lumens is only good when you need alot of light riding downhill courses at night. Beyond that chances are you don't need more light, you need neutral tint so you can see.

    Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by tigris99 View Post
    People will get caught on lumens no matter what we try to explain. High lumens is only good when you need alot of light riding downhill courses at night. Beyond that chances are you don't need more light, you need neutral tint so you can see.

    Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk
    Very true. Here in NC, it's a tad technical so 900-1300lm is what I like for output. But i feel i need more spread and a bar and head lamp would help this scenerio.

    but there's something to be said about, hey guys...watch this!"

    = sent on the go =

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