Gemini Lights OLYMPIA LED (2012)- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Gemini Lights OLYMPIA LED (2012)

    Our new Gemini OLYMPIA is just about ready to launch, beginning of February 2012.

    Gemini OLYMPIA
    • • LED: 3x CREE XM-L
    • • Brightness: 1700 Lumens
    • • Weight: 76g (Light Head)
    • • Beam Angle: 19°
    • • Run Time on Maximum: 2 hours (4-cell), 3.5 hours (6-cell)
    • • 4 modes: High, Med, Low, Flash (All modes are user programmable between 10-100%)
    • • Hard Anodized T6 Aluminum
    • • Battery Overcharge and Overheat Protection
    • • LED Overheat Protection
    • • IP65 Weatherproof


    Included in the box:
    • Gemini OLYMPIA LED Light
    • High-Capacity 4-Cell Battery Pack (Hard case)
    • Lithium Ion Smart Charger
    • Helmet and Bar Mount
    • Pro Head Belt
    • Silicone O-Rings
    • Extension Cable

    Retail Prices: $229.99 (4-cell), $249.99 (6-cell)

    And here is a sneak peak of the Olympia and Xera sitting together...




    Last edited by Gemini Lights; 01-16-2012 at 10:20 PM.

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    Good to see that each of the modes can be individually set to user preferences.

  3. #3
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    Sweet!

    How is the size in comparison with the Titan?

    Is the 2hr runtime based on the 5.2 amp hour 4 cell? If so, then I'm thinking it draws about 2.6 amp total on High. This will be nice for me to be able to run both the Olympia and the Xera on my homemade 5.8 amp hour battery pack.

    BTW, it's good to see that you kept each mode programable.

  4. #4
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    Any presales or introductory offers on this new light (similar to what gloworm is doing on their X2)? Is geomangear going to offer it and will they also carry the same time its released?

    Any changes to the battery packs or chargers or are they standard (ie works with current Magicshine, Geomangear, and Gemini batteries?)

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    Looking good!!! Not much bigger than the Xera and at 76 grams would also be plenty light enough for helmet use as well. One one the bars and one one the helmet as an honest 3400 lumens set-up WOW!!! Are you doing any pre sale orders and if so can you disclose a price yet? Cheers!!!

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    what will be the price point for this light?

  7. #7
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    Since this lamp is listed @ 1700 lumen, that would mean each emitter is outputting about 567 lumen. Basically that should put the amp draw about ( or ~ ) 1300ma per emitter ( going by standard Cree chart for XML T-6 max luminous output ). It really would be nice to have a gander at the front of the lamp. At a 19° beam spread this lamp should have lots of flood. The real question though is what kind of distance throw is this lamp going to have. There are already lots of bike lamps giving great flood patterns. Hopefully the people who are waiting for this will not be disappointed. To stave off those questions/fears it would a good idea to show some beam shots ...like real soon.

    Now for people who think the beam pattern too wide and not enough throw...will there be offered a tighter optic?
    Last edited by Cat-man-do; 01-21-2012 at 03:31 PM. Reason: correction on current draw est.

  8. #8
    Gemini Lights
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    Hi Colleen, I've updated my first post to show size comparisons. The 2 hour run time is based on the 5200mAh Samsung cells.

    A presale offer will be available soon at a discounted rate.

    And lastly, beam shots for you Cat.





    The first lamp post is approximately 25m.
    Last edited by Gemini Lights; 01-16-2012 at 10:54 PM.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini Lights View Post
    Hi Colleen, I've updated my first post to show size comparisons. The 2 hour run time is based on the 5200mAh Samsung cells.

    A presale offer will be available soon at a discounted rate.

    And lastly, beam shots for you Cat....
    Oh no, please...not just for me!

    After staring at the GIF's for about 30 minutes...my take.....pretty much what I expected. ( Noah, get the ark ready, the flood's a'coming! ) ...but seriously, a very big/bright beam pattern. Absolutely put the 872 to shame. The 880 on the other hand looked pretty good and compares well against the triple ( although not quite as bright ). In the 880 comparison I held my hands to the monitor to block out the sides while looking at the center area to judge distance throw. For the most part I really didn't see much of a difference. The shadowed area does move back a tinge when the Olympia is on but not much. Then again quite possible that the camera can't really show us what it will look like at that distance ( due to the bright foreground ). For the moment I'll give the Olympia a slight advantage in throw. ( geez, I would of killed for a couple real distance markers )

    Now I don't know if this is true or not but in the gif with the 880, the lamp head of the 880 doesn't look as though it's pointing in the same direction as the Olympia. It just looks like it's pointing down a bit. ( am I right?... ) Anyway if so, the 880 might have better throw if aimed a bit more upright.

    My first impression, I think the Olympia is going to be the lamp of choice for people who want a stellar bar lamp with a bright close in beam pattern with lots of bright spill. It could be that it's throwing better than I think but without markers it's just hard to tell.

    Regardless, if the Olympia can provide "usable throw" over 100 ft. ( 30.4m ) ( which I may add it appears to do ) it will make an excellent bar lamp. Add to that the ability to adjust all the modes and this becomes a total "win, win".

    ( Side note: Ya know I was just thinking....If I was a Lupine Dealer I might really start to worry about how well my inventory is going to sell in the next coming months. )

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do View Post
    ... Then again quite possible that the camera can't really show us what it will look like at that distance ( due to the bright foreground )
    You hit it right on the head. My experience has been that if I put a lot of light in the near field, then I can significantly effect my ability to see at distance because the reflected light is causing my pupils to close down.

    Although the beam shots and camera allow you the advantage of seeing a little further down the path with the "Olympia," in practice, overpowering in that 10' to 15' range can be really detrimental to distance vision. I find this type of beam pattern to be a bit frustrating. You'll end up wanting to aim it a bit higher to avoid being "blinded" by the near field light, but then you lose a lot of the other light that you need. Very hard to get an ideal beam from a single lens type. Would probably be better run at lower power in combo with a separate dedicated spot. Looks to be the same basic setup as the Dinotte XML triple but with considerably less cooling surface area. I realize they just scaled up the "Xera" case, which looks nice and all, but the lack of cooling is concerning. That's going to need to be one aggressive over temp protection circuit.

    Double check just a bit on those "by the spec" current estimates....
    XM-L T6 at 700mA, min luminous flux = 280

    3x280 = 840

    Assuming 1700 theoretical output we have a "gain" factor of:
    1700/840 = 2.02

    Look on the XML spec sheet figure titled "Relative Flux vs. Current (TJ = 25°C)" and read off the current at 200% and you have just over 1.5 amps, which equates to 14 watts in the LEDs alone. Add another 1.5 watts at least for the controller. That's a truckload of heat to get out of that case. Of course, all just my opinion.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by pethelman View Post
    You hit it right on the head. My experience has been that if I put a lot of light in the near field, then I can significantly effect my ability to see at distance because the reflected light is causing my pupils to close down.

    Although the beam shots and camera allow you the advantage of seeing a little further down the path with the "Olympia," in practice, overpowering in that 10' to 15' range can be really detrimental to distance vision. I find this type of beam pattern to be a bit frustrating. You'll end up wanting to aim it a bit higher to avoid being "blinded" by the near field light, but then you lose a lot of the other light that you need. Very hard to get an ideal beam from a single lens type. Would probably be better run at lower power in combo with a separate dedicated spot. Looks to be the same basic setup as the Dinotte XML triple but with considerably less cooling surface area. I realize they just scaled up the "Xera" case, which looks nice and all, but the lack of cooling is concerning. That's going to need to be one aggressive over temp protection circuit.

    Double check just a bit on those "by the spec" current estimates....
    XM-L T6 at 700mA, min luminous flux = 280

    3x280 = 840

    Assuming 1700 theoretical output we have a "gain" factor of:
    1700/840 = 2.02

    Look on the XML spec sheet figure titled "Relative Flux vs. Current (TJ = 25°C)" and read off the current at 200% and you have just over 1.5 amps, which equates to 14 watts in the LEDs alone. Add another 1.5 watts at least for the controller. That's a truckload of heat to get out of that case. Of course, all just my opinion.
    Assmumig you know the theoretical efficiency of a controller/optics, Cree have a great tool that calculates lumens/watts etc based on these facts.
    Last edited by Gloworm Manufacture; 01-17-2012 at 12:39 PM.
    Gloworm Lights - 'Create Your Escape'
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gloworm Manufacture View Post
    Assmumig you know the theoretical efficiency of a controller/optics, Cree have a great tool Cree LED Tool that calculates lumens/watts etc based on these facts.
    The link you provided doesn't work.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gloworm Manufacture View Post
    Assmumig you know the theoretical efficiency of a controller/optics, Cree have a great tool that calculates lumens/watts etc based on these facts.
    Fixed
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by pethelman View Post
    Double check just a bit on those "by the spec" current estimates....
    XM-L T6 at 700mA, min luminous flux = 280

    3x280 = 840
    Looks like my figures were wrong but to be fair I'm using the max luminous flux figures ( use data sheet for binning and labeling ). For T6=300 lm and U bin is 320 lm. So perhaps 1300ma to each emitter. This is not accounting for losses though. Maybe 1400ma ( ea.) would get you the claimed output.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do View Post
    Looks like my figures were wrong but to be fair I'm using the max luminous flux figures ( use data sheet for binning and labeling ). For T6=300 lm and U bin is 320 lm. So perhaps 1300ma to each emitter. This is not accounting for losses though. Maybe 1400ma ( ea.) would get you the claimed output.
    I figured it was probably something like that... give-or-take, plus-or-minus, etc. Either way, it's a lot of power to get out... Obviously the thermal resistance of the XML junction is respectably low, but still, for a bar light, I'd want to see more cooling capability. For a helmet mount, I can understand the desire to go uber minimalistic on the housing. Hope they got it right on the thermal cut-back, because it's not going to be able to burn more than about 6 watts continuously with no air-flow. I don't really buy into the light building philosophy of "if you don't provide air-flow to the light, damage will occur." I'd much rather ensure that the light can't be accidentally damaged under any circumstance. On the flip side, it's possible for an undersized housing to work just fine, provided the user is acutely in-tune with it's modes of operation. As usual, it boils down to the needs of the rider.
    Last edited by pethelman; 01-17-2012 at 06:36 PM.

  16. #16
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    Will be any lights only (I mean everything minus charger and battery) option?

  17. #17
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    Hi wriggle, we will be selling Olympia light heads as well.

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    Good! Waiting for the further pre-sale instructions.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by wriggle View Post
    Good! Waiting for the further pre-sale instructions.
    Hi Wriggle,

    Pre-sales for the Gemini Olympia is now available.

    Cheers!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini Lights View Post
    How do we preorder the 6-cell version? Not looking for it, but someone will likely ask do you sell a lighthead only version?

  21. #21
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    The Olympia's beam is very impressive - kudos. The MJ-872 runs very hot on average ambient temperature with it's slightly larger surface area heatsink shell. The MJ-880 runs hot too with 2 x XM-L T6s. Just wondering how hot running 3 x XM-Ls on a similar sized shell(maybe a little smaller if my eyes are correct) with less surface area? If Gemini has that addressed and runs relatively cooler than the MS, you've got yourself a true winner.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini Lights View Post
    Hi, I saw it last weekend but what I need is the light only version.

  23. #23
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    What is the pre-sale price for the Olympia?

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iwanttorideatnight View Post
    What is the pre-sale price for the Olympia?
    After looking at the link I think it is going to be over $300 with shipping. I don't see a "light head only" option yet or a 6 cell battery option but I think maybe the website is a work in progress. Ummm....$300 is quite a bit of money. At that price I'm wondering what they will charge for the "Light head only".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do View Post
    After looking at the link I think it is going to be over $300 with shipping. I don't see a "light head only" option yet or a 6 cell battery option but I think maybe the website is a work in progress. Ummm....$300 is quite a bit of money. At that price I'm wondering what they will charge for the "Light head only".
    The presale price was $200 with 4-cell before something happened to the website. I don't recall what the shipping was.

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    Quote Originally Posted by syadasti View Post
    The presale price was $200 with 4-cell before something happened to the website. I don't recall what the shipping was.
    US$200 sounds about right. Pre-sale or otherwise. Definitely couldn't be US$300. Dinotte's XML-3 as is goes for $259. I believe there is a typo on the Gemini website.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chromagftw View Post
    US$200 sounds about right. Pre-sale or otherwise. Definitely couldn't be US$300. Dinotte's XML-3 as is goes for $259. I believe there is a typo on the Gemini website.
    Yes they changed their webstore too. Yesterday the site was down for hours so they could add the Olympia and I guess now they are making more changes but not taking the whole site down in the meantime.

    I noticed If you click add to cart on their full products listing the presale price comes up at $199.99:

    Products | Gemini Lights

    They still need to add a 6-cell option and people will be interested in the lighthead only option too.
    Last edited by syadasti; 01-25-2012 at 11:19 AM.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by syadasti View Post
    The presale price was $200 with 4-cell before something happened to the website. I don't recall what the shipping was.
    Yep, looks like you're right syadasti. Looks like the website updated since last night and has the better price ( $199.99 ) listed now.

  29. #29
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    I was wondering if the pre-sale is over. The price is already 299.99.

  30. #30
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    We are limiting the Olympia pre-sale offering to a small number of people. We've since removed the pre-sale pricing and applied a discount code instead. The pre-sale discount code is PRESALE10 and is $100 off from retail for OLYM-4 and OLYM-6.

    Enjoy!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini Lights View Post
    We are limiting the Olympia pre-sale offering to a small number of people. We've since removed the pre-sale pricing and applied a discount code instead. The pre-sale discount code is PRESALE10 and is $100 off from retail for OLYM-4 and OLYM-6.

    Enjoy!
    Thanks for the info. By the way, does the 6 cell battery come with a pouch since its a soft version?

  32. #32
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    The 6-cell only comes in the soft case version, which is the velcro pouch. It saves weight this way. I will have to get back to you on exact weight measurements.

  33. #33
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    Ramble-ramble-self-mumblings.

    I'm going to ramble on about this for a while so apologies in advance.

    Back to the beamshots, I didn't think I would from the spec, but I think I prefer the 880 for the scene shown in the photo here. Things would be very different in a severe, off road technical setting.

    The 880 seems to have a slightly narrower beam pattern which is clearly evident in the vertical sense (proximate ground and canopy).

    Even though it does look as if the 880 is pointed ever so slightly lower than the Olympia, most notably, the close foreground from the 880 is not as overbearingly bright and the foliage is less well illuminated.

    That being said, the throws of the two beams appear to be almost equal, with a slight edge to the Olympia.

    In terms of brute power, then, the Olympia is the clear winner with most of the difference being a much brighter, fuller, smoother and wider flood.

    However, after watching the two beamshots one after the other, I get the impression that (due relative distances) the Olympia is projecting a doughnut shaped light field, which, although clearly not true, is what I perceive. i.e. a ring of overly bright light reflected from the ground, the bushes and the canopy from the bright with a darkened centre.

    This is especially evident if one focusses on the area just between and beyond the two benches, which as a path/road rider is where my eyes naturally went. One can see the 880 projecting an even, vertically-elongated, centrally-brightened "blob" (to use a technical lighting term) of light whereas the Olympia is projecting a kind of a "smile" (to be similarly technical) with the brightest central "bit" being nearer than the brightest "bits" on the sides of the path.

    The problem is that eyes, as many have pointed out, adjust to brightness by either or both lowering their regional sensitivity and contracting the pupil in extreme light, meaning that perceived throw might actually be less than with the 880, with more distractions from the periphery to reduce focus on what lies ahead.

    In this respect, the Olympia appears to be a Bigga-badda version of the 872 floodlight with the much-asked-for improved throw, whereas the 880 appears to be the successor to the well regarded 808E.

    *** Camera note:

    Some people have stated here that the relative brightness of the near ground might "reduce the ability of the camera to see the darker regions."

    While this is in essence true, it may not be for the reasons one might think.

    Assuming the camera employs a fixed gain on its sensor (ISO) with a fixed shutter speed and aperture and was set correctly, overly bright light WILL NOT cause it to "step down" and make the darker bits even darker except perhaps in extreme sunlight (sunburn protection circuit for example).

    On the contrary, bright light naturally reflects within the lens and camera housings and in the glass itself to produce false images such as halos, ghosting or haze in all but the most expensive cameras with prime (non-zoom) lenses. Thus, the fixed sensitivity of the sensor causes the dark bits to actually appear brighter and "washed out" rather than black. It is this lack of contrast that reduces the resolving power of most camera/lens combinations, not the "stepping down" of the sensitivity/aperture.
    Last edited by GraXXoR; 01-26-2012 at 02:59 AM. Reason: mistake

  34. #34
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    Thanks for sharing your observations. They're certainly not self ramblings, we're all keen to hear everyone's thoughts and opinions.

    Quote Originally Posted by GraXXoR View Post
    In this respect, the Olympia appears to be a Bigga-badda version of the 872 floodlight with the much-asked-for improved throw, whereas the 880 appears to be the successor to the well regarded 808E.
    You're pretty much correct on this. We looked at the popular MJ-872 flood light and studied it's shortcomings. We like the light very much but it really lacked the throw in speedy situations. So we designed Olympia to have a similar beam pattern with more throwing power. The Olympia and MJ-880 are in similar output range and we wanted to show a comparison to people since we had both Magicshine lights. The MJ-880 is essentially two 808E's put together, hence the pronounced spot pattern. I'm not sure if it's ideal as a bar light as it seems most of it's power is placed in the hotspot, leaving a dark donut around it. As Olympia is intended for a bar light, we created an optics to suit the job.

    We're a fan of riding in nicely spread, even light so we went with optics much like XERA. The even spread just seems more natural to us and we didn't want the beam stop harshly around the edges. For the XERA and Olympia, we cover enough trail width and throw the rest forwards where it's put to good use.

    The XERA reflector was produced for those accustomed the MJ-808 reflector pattern, but again we made the edges around the hotspot a little softer.

    Shortly I will post pictures of the Olympia and XERA combined. It's spectacular.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by GraXXoR View Post
    Assuming the camera employs a fixed gain on its sensor (ISO) with a fixed shutter speed and aperture and was set correctly, overly bright light WILL NOT cause it to "step down" and make the darker bits even darker except perhaps in extreme sunlight (sunburn protection circuit for example).
    Camera settings were MTBR standards (ISO 100, Daylight, F4, 6 seconds), for all photos shown.

    Here is a beam shot for the people curious for the XERA, OLYMPIA combo. Right there is 2500 lumens.


  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini Lights View Post
    Thanks for sharing your observations. They're certainly not self ramblings, we're all keen to hear everyone's thoughts and opinions.



    You're pretty much correct on this. We looked at the popular MJ-872 flood light and studied it's shortcomings. We like the light very much but it really lacked the throw in speedy situations. So we designed Olympia to have a similar beam pattern with more throwing power. The Olympia and MJ-880 are in similar output range and we wanted to show a comparison to people since we had both Magicshine lights. The MJ-880 is essentially two 808E's put together, hence the pronounced spot pattern. I'm not sure if it's ideal as a bar light as it seems most of it's power is placed in the hotspot, leaving a dark donut around it. As Olympia is intended for a bar light, we created an optics to suit the job.

    We're a fan of riding in nicely spread, even light so we went with optics much like XERA. The even spread just seems more natural to us and we didn't want the beam stop harshly around the edges. For the XERA and Olympia, we cover enough trail width and throw the rest forwards where it's put to good use.

    The XERA reflector was produced for those accustomed the MJ-808 reflector pattern, but again we made the edges around the hotspot a little softer.

    Shortly I will post pictures of the Olympia and XERA combined. It's spectacular.
    If this has more throw and its brighter than the 872 than its the light for me Right now I'm running the 872 and 808e on the bars to get maximum flood and throw but the negative in having to run two battery's, I have ran double 808Es on the bars with one of them in a flood pattern and found it lacking so the 880 isn't even being considered. It will be nice getting max flood and good throw out of a single light.
    Get the lighthead only option up. so I can buy one
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  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rakuman View Post
    Get the lighthead only option up. so I can buy one
    And me too!

  38. #38
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    @Rakuman

    The 872 was a big hit for Magicshine. Very popular. But practically everyone commented on the ultimate lack of throw, even with the clear optics. I think the Gemini is going to be a very popular upgrade.

    The price is right, the size is right and the power is outstanding.

  39. #39
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    We will be posting the Olympia Light Head only option soon on our website. You can also head over to Action LED Lights and purchase the pre-sale deals there. They are very a reputable seller of Gemini Lights.

    Cheers!

  40. #40
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    I just ordered the olympia lighthead from action. $99.99 + less than 2 dollars to ship USPS. It didn't say how long till they come in but I'm in no hurry. I see Gemini posted
    the lighthead option while I was ordering it but I knew everyone was interested in the price.

  41. #41
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    if it's $99 for the light head and $199 for the set with a battery, am I right in assuming the battery is $99, too?

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by GraXXoR View Post
    if it's $99 for the light head and $199 for the set with a battery, am I right in assuming the battery is $99, too?
    The set includes not just the light head and battery, but also the charger, extension cable, helmet mount, head belt, and O-rings.

    I'll be selling the 6 cell battery for $94.99. I'll get that listing up as soon as I confirm the details.
    Jim Harger
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    Price is rightBut just got back from a ride and my 872 reminded me how hot a small light that was driven hard can get,
    Now take a even smaller light and add even more heat leads me to wonder how well this guy will take it. I think I will let you guys be the guinea pigs and I will get one after they have been run thru the ringer...
    I always type in bold cuz I'm blind as a bat
    For the Rich there is therapy!!!! for the rest of us we have Mountain Biking


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    Quote Originally Posted by Rakuman View Post
    Price is rightBut just got back from a ride and my 872 reminded me how hot a small light that was driven hard can get,
    Now take a even smaller light and add even more heat leads me to wonder how well this guy will take it. I think I will let you guys be the guinea pigs and I will get one after they have been run thru the ringer...
    That was the first thing I thought. Unless there are some spare ribs out of site at the back of the light, it looks like it's got even less ribbing on the case that the 872.

    "Rib master general" Pethelman, if he hasn't already, might have something to say on the matter. I believe his own brew lights have something like 2 square inches PER WATT of surface area!!!! These lights look like they might have about 10 square inches.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rakuman
    Now take a even smaller light and add even more heat leads me to wonder how well this guy will take it. I think I will let you guys be the guinea pigs and I will get one after they have been run thru the ringer...
    I have gone as low as ~1 sq in area per Watt on my microlights. They get quite hot if stopped. A moderate airflow in coolish weather does keep them at comfortable temps. The Olympia appears to be ~.5 sq in area per Watt. I'd be concerned. LED output decreases as the temperature goes up. Reliability of electronics is reduced at high temps.

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    OLYMPIA LED Light Head now available with limited pre-sale discount $60 off retail. Enjoy!

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    I don't know how I forgot to mention the pre-sale discount code ($60 off): PRESALE11

    This is only for the OLYMPIA LED Light Head.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GraXXoR View Post
    That was the first thing I thought. Unless there are some spare ribs out of site at the back of the light, it looks like it's got even less ribbing on the case that the 872.

    "Rib master general" Pethelman, if he hasn't already, might have something to say on the matter. I believe his own brew lights have something like 2 square inches PER WATT of surface area!!!! These lights look like they might have about 10 square inches.
    You're exactly right my friend...with low mass and low surface area enclosures, you need some exquisitely tightly coupled temperature feedback from the LEDs to the temperature monitoring device and subsequent controller logic in order to adequately protect the LEDs. The less an enclosure is able to "cool itself" under little to no air-flow, the faster and steeper the thermal gradient will be, between the LEDs and the monitoring device.

    The LEDs can essentially "overshoot" a safe temperature before protection can kick in. The only way to alleviate this is to: 1) provide a low enough thermal resistance to the outside world (i.e. much more surface area), or 2) crank the temperature monitoring threshold WAY down. However, no.2 has the undesirable consequence of not allowing the case to come up to a healthy steady-state temperature under modest air-flow and the possibility of auto-cutback during reasonable motion. Given that you can SEE this happen and you can't SEE the LEDs overheating... well, I probably don't need to spell it out.

    Having spent a good part of my career studying the effects of temperature on electronics, it was really important to me to provide adequate cooling and protection under hot ambient conditions with no airflow, which is why an abundance of well oriented fins is so important. However, there's a direct correlation to machining cost, which is why you rarely see it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pethelman View Post
    ....Having spent a good part of my career studying the effects of temperature on electronics, it was really important to me to provide adequate cooling and protection under hot ambient conditions with no airflow, which is why an abundance of well oriented fins is so important. However, there's a direct correlation to machining cost, which is why you rarely see it.
    You know the more I hear you talk about this issue the more I believe you know what you're talking about.

    I can only hope that the Olympia does a good job of handling the heat. However if I was one of those people living in a warmer climate I would be very hesitate before buying one. I'm sure as soon as the first shipments go out that we'll know more about how well the heating/thermal controls of the light work.

    Like some others I would of rather liked to have seen a design more horizontal ( like the Gloworm only a three up ). It would have to be bigger but that would help with the thermal issues.

    Still others have built lights using the cluster configurations. Just think of all of those 7-up and nine-up XPG lights out there.

    ...and while on the subject of thermal conductivity, have you ever considered integrating a copper finned heat sink into your own design for increased heat transferal?

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    Since XML are more efficient when they aren't driven as hard maybe the Olympia might not be worse off than the Xera? The Olympia could run its high setting at a lower/more efficient level for each XML vs. Xera's single XML which I assume is driven harder. It would also make sense it wouldn't need as much heatsinking as the Baja Designs Double Stryk which has a similar number for claimed lumens via dual XMLs.

    I wonder what the real world OTF is going to be, optimistically maybe 400-450 lumens/LED?

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by pethelman View Post
    You're exactly right my friend...with low mass and low surface area enclosures, you need some exquisitely tightly coupled temperature feedback from the LEDs to the temperature monitoring device and subsequent controller logic in order to adequately protect the LEDs. The less an enclosure is able to "cool itself" under little to no air-flow, the faster and steeper the thermal gradient will be, between the LEDs and the monitoring device.

    The LEDs can essentially "overshoot" a safe temperature before protection can kick in. The only way to alleviate this is to: 1) provide a low enough thermal resistance to the outside world (i.e. much more surface area), or 2) crank the temperature monitoring threshold WAY down. However, no.2 has the undesirable consequence of not allowing the case to come up to a healthy steady-state temperature under modest air-flow and the possibility of auto-cutback during reasonable motion. Given that you can SEE this happen and you can't SEE the LEDs overheating... well, I probably don't need to spell it out.

    Having spent a good part of my career studying the effects of temperature on electronics, it was really important to me to provide adequate cooling and protection under hot ambient conditions with no airflow, which is why an abundance of well oriented fins is so important. However, there's a direct correlation to machining cost, which is why you rarely see it.
    I understand your concern about heat and electronics, but from what I have seen with the Xera and heard about what went into the design of the Olympia, Gemini has put some effort into making sure this is not a problem. According to CREE the Junction temperature at the LED is safe up to 150˚C (302˚F) though the life span would be shortened at that temperature. The 50,000 hour life rating is at a temperature of 85˚C.
    The Xera and Olympia are designed to provide a wide path for the heat to get quickly away from the LED and into the housing where just a slight amount of air flow can carry it away. If I remember right they have the temperature sensor set to reduce power at 78˚C. It may have no more surface than the 872 but MS does not give heat flow as much attention. Their LED holder is thin, the contact area between it and the housing is small and they are stingy with the thermal paste. Sometimes there's only a couple of little dots between the two.
    The amount of thermal mass in the LED holder and driver circuit board where the temperature sensing occurs is small so it can react fairly quickly if things start to get too hot. It then cuts the power down to low (20% I think) until things cool off. They have put this thing threw the ringer running it on the bench to assure everything works as intended.
    Jim Harger
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    Quote Originally Posted by syadasti View Post
    Since XML are more efficient when they aren't driven as hard maybe the Olympia might not be worse off than the Xera? The Olympia could run its high setting at a lower/more efficient level for each XML vs. Xera's single XML which I assume is driven harder. It would also make sense it wouldn't need as much heatsinking as the Baja Designs Double Stryk which has a similar number for claimed lumens via dual XMLs.

    I wonder what the real world OTF is going to be, optimistically maybe 400-450 lumens/LED?
    syadasti, You are right in that using 3 XM-L's driven at a lower current is more efficient. The lumens vs current curve is not linear. For 567 lumens per LED (1700/3), you would only need about 1.55A through each one. 800 lumens from a single LED would need 2.5A.
    Remember, Gemini's claim of 1700 lumens is measured in a test lab.
    Jim Harger
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do View Post
    You know the more I hear you talk about this issue the more I believe you know what you're talking about.

    I can only hope that the Olympia does a good job of handling the heat. However if I was one of those people living in a warmer climate I would be very hesitate before buying one. I'm sure as soon as the first shipments go out that we'll know more about how well the heating/thermal controls of the light work.

    Like some others I would of rather liked to have seen a design more horizontal ( like the Gloworm only a three up ). It would have to be bigger but that would help with the thermal issues.

    Still others have built lights using the cluster configurations. Just think of all of those 7-up and nine-up XPG lights out there.

    ...and while on the subject of thermal conductivity, have you ever considered integrating a copper finned heat sink into your own design for increased heat transferal?
    You know, the reality is that the LEDs can reasonably survive marginal short duration overtemp scenarios, it's just that this has the tendency to prematurely "age" the device. And with age comes a decay of the relative luminous flux of the device at best, and at worst, device failure. So at the end of the day, if a manufacturer can shed expenses with a less complicated housing, but still produce several years of reasonably good output, it's probably a smart call from a business perspective.

    Consumer electronics in general, conform to the rules of obsolescence. It's just bad business to spend more than you have to on materials and engineering to make a product last beyond its expected usefulness to the consumer. As an aside, I used to work at an R&D facility for a reputable television manufacturer back in the 90s (who shall remain nameless) and there were times when our group manager would come along through the lab with a pair of cutters in his pocket just to observe how things were coming on some power supply designs. He'd take a look at a sprawling circuit board on the bench then randomly pick a resistor to cut out of the circuit. If nothing immediately detrimental happened, he'd say, "There, you can re-move that resistor from the design." Never mind that he just removed a component of a fail-safe circuit. Drove the engineers absolutely insane that they were not allowed to engineer the "best" circuit, but only the cheapest one that would work for X-years and no longer.

    I say all that just to admit that I'm probably jaded when it comes to assessing the long-term reliability of high-power bike lights. If it's a consumable, then fine, it's a consumable, I can live with that. If a light really needs to have air-flow 100% of the time, to achieve it's best performance over time, then that's probably OK as well. I think all of these lights have their own place in the market, and thanks to the advances in LEDs, they're all pretty dang good, compared to even a few years ago.

    Though not a large part of the market, I think there will always be those (like myself) who will gravitate more toward the "over-engineered" products and can appreciate their value.

    Sorry for the rant...

    On copper vs. aluminum... even though copper does have a higher coefficient of thermal conductivity, aluminum is still sufficiently high for this application, and all of it's other properties make it better suited for the job.

    Per Jim's post:
    "The amount of thermal mass in the LED holder and driver circuit board where the temperature sensing occurs is small so it can react fairly quickly if things start to get too hot. It then cuts the power down to low (20% I think) until things cool off."

    Clearly, you guys are doing your best to take heat seriously... Kudos.

  54. #54
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    While we have the attention of some people with solid technical kinowledge and the subject of light efficiency has coime up I have some questions. My experence is that Magicshine lights maybe less efficient than other brands (power consumption wise). My 808e will drain the same battery more quickly than my BikeRay IV will on high and I noticed that on Geoman's website that the estimated runtime on a xera is almost an hour longer than an 808e even though the BR IV and Xera produce more llight. I also notice that all Magicshire seem to run hot. Since the Magicshire lights are using more power to produce less light is it possible the wasted energy is just producing more heat?
    I should be getting my Olympia lighthead in a couple of weeks and I live in Phoenix so in a few months I'll be able to let everyone know it reacts to heat. I'll let you know my thoughts on the light (especially if I have any problems).

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    Quote Originally Posted by MRMOLE View Post
    While we have the attention of some people with solid technical kinowledge and the subject of light efficiency has coime up I have some questions. My experence is that Magicshine lights maybe less efficient than other brands (power consumption wise). My 808e will drain the same battery more quickly than my BikeRay IV will on high and I noticed that on Geoman's website that the estimated runtime on a xera is almost an hour longer than an 808e even though the BR IV and Xera produce more llight. I also notice that all Magicshire seem to run hot. Since the Magicshire lights are using more power to produce less light is it possible the wasted energy is just producing more heat?
    I should be getting my Olympia lighthead in a couple of weeks and I live in Phoenix so in a few months I'll be able to let everyone know it reacts to heat. I'll let you know my thoughts on the light (especially if I have any problems).
    That's exactly what's happening. As a general rule, all inefficiencies in a bike light end up as extra heat. That's true for driver, optics and LED inefficiencies. Pretty much electrical energy goes in and two things come out, light and heat. Any energy that doesn't end up as OTF light, ends up as heat.

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRMOLE View Post
    While we have the attention of some people with solid technical knowledge and the subject of light efficiency has come up I have some questions. My experience is that Magicshine lights maybe less efficient than other brands (power consumption wise). My 808e will drain the same battery more quickly than my BikeRay IV will on high and I noticed that on Geoman's website that the estimated runtime on a xera is almost an hour longer than an 808e even though the BR IV and Xera produce more light. I also noticed that all Magicshine's seem to run hot. Since the Magicshine lights are using more power to produce less light is it possible the wasted energy is just producing more heat?
    To quantify the difference between the Xera and 808E I checked the current draw on both of them.
    With 7.4v input the 808E draws 1.48A and the Xera draws 1.17A (both on high of course)
    That's more than I expected and would certainly explain the difference in run time and heat.
    And as noted above, what goes in must come out, either as light or heat.
    Jim Harger
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    Thanks for your opinions and data. The reason I brought this up is I think it's a little unfair that the Olympia is compaired so closely to the second most thermally challanged light I know of (L&M Urban 500, your my #1). I know the size and basic layout is similar to the 872 but there are other factors to consider. I consider the Xera the best light in its class (inexpensive single xml) and I don't see any reason why the Olympia won't be the same.

  58. #58
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    I was doing a little number crunching in another thread but thought the result would also fit in here.
    The Xera draws 1.17A at 7.4V.
    V x A = Watts so that equals 8.66 watts going into the driver board of the light.
    Going off CREE's specs for the XM-L T6, it needs 2.5A at 3.25V to produce 800 lumens or 8.125 watts. If we divide power out by power in (8.125/8.66) it tells us that the driver is 94% efficient. That's about as good as they get.
    Jim Harger
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    Quote Originally Posted by Action LED Lights View Post
    To quantify the difference between the Xera and 808E I checked the current draw on both of them.
    With 7.4v input the 808E draws 1.48A and the Xera draws 1.17A (both on high of course)
    That's more than I expected and would certainly explain the difference in run time and heat.
    And as noted above, what goes in must come out, either as light or heat.
    Jim, could I get you to post the power draw on the Olympia when it comes in. I'd also like to see the readings off the 872 and 880 MS lights. Thanks!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Action LED Lights View Post
    I was doing a little number crunching in another thread but thought the result would also fit in here.
    The Xera draws 1.17A at 7.4V.
    V x A = Watts so that equals 8.66 watts going into the driver board of the light.
    Going off CREE's specs for the XM-L T6, it needs 2.5A at 3.25V to produce 800 lumens or 8.125 watts. If we divide power out by power in (8.125/8.66) it tells us that the driver is 94% efficient. That's about as good as they get.
    That's fine for "back of the envelope," but to find the real number you need to actually put a current meter in series with LED and measure the power at the LED. Efficiency is directly related to the delta between input voltage and the drive voltage to the LED. It's also dependent on the drive current. So the worst case efficiency here is actually with a fully charged battery with the light on high and will likely be less than 94%. Efficiency will go up as the battery drains in the case of the Xera. Still, anything in the 88 to 94% range for a switching converter is decent, and at these lower wattage levels it's not a major contributor to heat and battery drain. Start moving up to the 15 to 20 watt range and controller efficiency can become a MUCH bigger deal.

  61. #61
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    Update on the Olympia

    Everything is on track for the Olympia to ship by Feb. 15th if not before. One more week for the pre-order special.
    Jim Harger
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    So Olympia is not suited for a helmet light?

    I own two MJ-808(P7 and XM-L), and plan to use Olympia as a helmet light (and 808s as bar light). Would this not be a good configuration?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini Lights View Post

    You're pretty much correct on this. We looked at the popular MJ-872 flood light and studied it's shortcomings. We like the light very much but it really lacked the throw in speedy situations. So we designed Olympia to have a similar beam pattern with more throwing power. The Olympia and MJ-880 are in similar output range and we wanted to show a comparison to people since we had both Magicshine lights. The MJ-880 is essentially two 808E's put together, hence the pronounced spot pattern. I'm not sure if it's ideal as a bar light as it seems most of it's power is placed in the hotspot, leaving a dark donut around it. As Olympia is intended for a bar light, we created an optics to suit the job.
    .
    Last edited by butasan; 02-10-2012 at 02:37 PM.

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by butasan View Post
    So Olympia is not suited for a helmet light?

    I own two MJ-808(P7 and XM-L), and plan to use Olympia as a helmet light. Would this not be a good configuration?
    I would say that is a matter of personal preference. At 18˚ it is between the MJ-880 and MJ-872 and would do pretty well in either bar or helmet use, particularly if it was your only light.
    Jim Harger
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini Lights View Post
    The MJ-880 is essentially two 808E's put together, hence the pronounced spot pattern. I'm not sure if it's ideal as a bar light as it seems most of it's power is placed in the hotspot, leaving a dark donut around it. As Olympia is intended for a bar light, we created an optics to suit the job.
    Have to disagree the MJ-880 is essentially two 808Es. 880 beam pattern is optics dependent while the 808E is two orange peel reflector cups with no optics. The 880 is best compared to the Gloworm X2 since both uses the T6 and both are optical lens. There are no donuts in 880s beam pattern in any of our beamshots of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by MRMOLE View Post
    My experence is that Magicshine lights maybe less efficient than other brands (power consumption wise). My 808e will drain the same battery more quickly than my BikeRay IV will on high
    The 808 is powered by a 7.4-8.4V 4 x 18650 4400mAh battery. Bikeray IV is 11.6?(help me out, Cat)-12.6V 6 x 18650 6600mAh battery. In our burntime/runtime test the 808E runs for 3 hours 17 mins while the Bikeray IV, 4 hours 7 mins. Average over 3 runs each, 21C or 69.8F constant headwind speed 15km/h. Considering the Bikeray 4 has 30% more battery capacity, the 808E actually has a longer burntime/runtime.

    An observation on using floodlight like the 872 as a helmet light. Maybe everyone's different, but in my personal experience, and I've tested lights quite a bit on the trails, I found having a flood light on max power on helmet can cause a mild disorientation - almost an uncomfortable feeling. Its probably because too much flood light flooding right in front of the face instead of sending it to a distance where your eyes are focused on. Need someone to tell me if I am wrong about this and need my head checked.

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magicshine Australia View Post
    Have to disagree the MJ-880 is essentially two 808Es. 880 beam pattern is optics dependent while the 808E is two orange peel reflector cups with no optics. The 880 is best compared to the Gloworm X2 since both uses the T6 and both are optical lens. There are no donuts in 880s beam pattern in any of our beamshots of it.



    The 808 is powered by a 7.4-8.4V 4 x 18650 4400mAh battery. Bikeray IV is 11.6?(help me out, Cat)-12.6V 6 x 18650 6600mAh battery. In our burntime/runtime test the 808E runs for 3 hours 17 mins while the Bikeray IV, 4 hours 7 mins. Average over 3 runs each, 21C or 69.8F constant headwind speed 15km/h. Considering the Bikeray 4 has 30% more battery capacity, the 808E actually has a longer burntime/runtime.

    An observation on using floodlight like the 872 as a helmet light. Maybe everyone's different, but in my personal experience, and I've tested lights quite a bit on the trails, I found having a flood light on max power on helmet can cause a mild disorientation - almost an uncomfortable feeling. Its probably because too much flood light flooding right in front of the face instead of sending it to a distance where your eyes are focused on. Need someone to tell me if I am wrong about this and need my head checked.




    I agree completely The only thing that should be on your helmet should be a spot!!! a flood would wash way to much trail details and imagine a flood on your head when your behind a bunch of riders eating dust you would be blind also.
    I always type in bold cuz I'm blind as a bat
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  66. #66
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    AH OH ! Double post to many Newcastles
    I always type in bold cuz I'm blind as a bat
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    Thanks Rakuman, I will cancel the doctor's appointment now.

  68. #68
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    There are a couple of misconceptions here that need to be cleaned up.

    Quote Originally Posted by [I
    Magicshine Australia;8993098]Have to disagree the MJ-880 is essentially two 808Es. 880 beam pattern is optics dependent while the 808E is two orange peel reflector cups with no optics. The 880 is best compared to the Gloworm X2 since both uses the T6 and both are optical lens. There are no donuts in 880s beam pattern in any of our beamshots of it.[/I]
    What has been loosely referred to hear as optics is a TIR or Total Internal Reflection lens. It is in fact a different type of reflector that relies on the index of refraction of the acrylic material it is made of to reflect nearly 100% of the light that hits the side walls. (see: Total internal reflection - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia if you want to more fully understand the psychics of it) This type of reflector can produce most any angle beam just like a conventional reflector. I believe the "donut" Chris is referring to comes from the fact that there is so much light concentrated into a small area that your eyes adjust to this level and you are blinded to anything in the surrounding area.

    Quote Originally Posted by [I
    The 808 is powered by a 7.4-8.4V 4 x 18650 4400mAh battery. Bikeray IV is 11.6?(help me out, Cat)-12.6V 6 x 18650 6600mAh battery. In our burntime/runtime test the 808E runs for 3 hours 17 mins while the Bikeray IV, 4 hours 7 mins. Average over 3 runs each, 21C or 69.8F constant headwind speed 15km/h. Considering the Bikeray 4 has 30% more battery capacity, the 808E actually has a longer burntime/runtime.[/I]
    The 808 is powered by 4 - 3.7v cells in a 2p2s configuration (2 pair in parallel and then 2 of those in series) for 7.6V nominal and 4400mAh
    The 6 cell packs are 3p2s or 3 cells in parallel and 2 of those sets in series. This is still 7.4V but 50% more capacity or 6600mAh


    [/QUOTE]
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    [


    The 808 is powered by a 7.4-8.4V 4 x 18650 4400mAh battery. Bikeray IV is 11.6?(help me out, Cat)-12.6V 6 x 18650 6600mAh battery. In our burntime/runtime test the 808E runs for 3 hours 17 mins while the Bikeray IV, 4 hours 7 mins. Average over 3 runs each, 21C or 69.8F constant headwind speed 15km/h. Considering the Bikeray 4 has 30% more battery capacity, the 808E actually has a longer burntime/runtime.

    QUOTE]

    My BikeRay IV is an older model (sorry I left this information out) and I'm looking at the battery now which says "Output Voltage 7.4V". The runtime test I did was using this BikeRay battery at full charge and timing how long each lighthead ran till it shut off. The Bikeray IV ran 10 minutes longer than the 808e head.

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Action LED Lights View Post
    There are a couple of misconceptions here that need to be cleaned up.



    What has been loosely referred to hear as optics is a TIR or Total Internal Reflection lens. It is in fact a different type of reflector that relies on the index of refraction of the acrylic material it is made of to reflect nearly 100% of the light that hits the side walls.

    I believe the "donut" Chris is referring to comes from the fact that there is so much light concentrated into a small area that your eyes adjust to this level and you are blinded to anything in the surrounding area.


    The 808 is powered by 4 - 3.7v cells in a 2p2s configuration (2 pair in parallel and then 2 of those in series) for 7.6V nominal and 4400mAh
    The 6 cell packs are 3p2s or 3 cells in parallel and 2 of those sets in series. This is still 7.4V but 50% more capacity or 6600mAh

    [/QUOTE]
    Hey Jim, what I was referring to was, the 808E has reflector cups of 32mm in diameter. The 880 and X2 does not have this and hence will suffer with distance spot. Whether it TIR or something else, we can't compare reflector cup lights to TIRs. That's what I was saying.

    As for donut, TIRs or your 808 diffuser lens will smooth out donuts. The 880 will be no different. In fact I am surprised how far the 880 goes considering it's optics and not reflector cup.

    The Bikeray 4 is a 12V system - it comes with a 12.6V charger instead of the 8.4V - different from the Bikeray 2 or 3 which are fully compatible with MS and Open Light Systems.
    Last edited by Magicshine Australia; 02-10-2012 at 09:52 PM.

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRMOLE View Post
    [


    My BikeRay IV is an older model (sorry I left this information out) and I'm looking at the battery now which says "Output Voltage 7.4V". The runtime test I did was using this BikeRay battery at full charge and timing how long each lighthead ran till it shut off. The Bikeray IV ran 10 minutes longer than the 808e head.
    Hey MrMole, oddly Bikeray send us wrong chargers and batteries for the BR4 the last time. We have been checking the light sets with 7.4-8.4V chargers and batteries they wrongly supplied and didn't realise there and then they were mis-packed.

    Seeing the brightness was actually no different from the larger 12V battery, it took us a while to realise the battery pack was smaller! It worked fine but we got about 3 hours out of the "wrong" 4400mAh battery - it may be longer after 3-5 charges.

    You are most probably right about the BR4 running longer than the 808E with the same 4400mAh battery. I found in the burntime test we did, BR4 ran cooler and was the most consistent of all lights we had. MS does have an issue with heat but like most high powered lights in small packages, turn it on for 5 mins on full without ventilation then get ready for a sunny side up egg on it.

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Action LED Lights View Post
    Everything is on track for the Olympia to ship by Feb. 15th if not before. One more week for the pre-order special.
    Ordered my Olympia today, with a 6-cell battery!

    And also just ordered a Xera from Action, and Jim sent it out immediately and I got it in two days! Thanks Jim!
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  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Action LED Lights View Post
    Everything is on track for the Olympia to ship by Feb. 15th if not before. One more week for the pre-order special.
    Hi Jim, We still good on the ship date?

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRMOLE View Post
    Hi Jim, We still good on the ship date?
    I just got off the phone with Gemini and they have been delayed a few days by one of their suppliers so we are now looking at shipping on Monday the 20th.
    I appreciate the fact that they are taking the time to make sure everything is perfect.
    I'm not sure if it wouldn't be better to estimate the date with lots of padding and then surprise everyone when it comes in early.
    In any case we're very close. I'll keep the pre-order price up until they ship.
    Jim Harger
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  75. #75
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    Thanks Jim for the updates on the light delivery times. It looks like Action will start shipping lights out this Tuesday, so I should have my lighthead by the wqeekend (I hope). I lack a camera to do beam shots but I'll happily share my impressions on how it campares to my various forms of 808 magicshines and my bikeray IV. It's still too cool to test how it will fare in the heat but I can see how quickly it will activate the heat safety circuit compared to one of my 808e's (They survived a Phoenix summer and only kicked down once on a 105+ degree night). Also I'm going t be using Geoman batteries, so I'll let you know how they work with this light. I hope all I have is good news to share but one way or another I'll post it.

  76. #76
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    Just got my Olympia lighthead in and WOW! This thing is insanely bright! I won't get to ride with it until wed or thurs this week. But I took it into the backyard and pointed it straight forward. It lit up the woods for a REALLY wide span and way deeper than I cared to see. I heard a neighbor come outside to see what it was ha. Amazing light! I'll report back more after I ride with it.

  77. #77
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    Did you get your from Action LED lights?
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  78. #78
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    w00t! - got an email from Jim earlier this evening stating that mine has been shipped via USPS International to the UK, so from previous experience of this particular service I estimate it should arrive in a couple of weeks, or so.

    Am really looking forward to trying out this little beast, so not long to go now.

    Thanks Jim, will buy from you again in the future no doubt.

  79. #79
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    Thank you and everyone else who took a leap of faith and ordered an Olympia sight unseen. (a pretty safe bet based on the Xera)

    All Pre-orders are now shipped
    and the pre-order price is now gone
    Jim Harger
    Action LED Lights
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    Thanks Jim, this little monster should be awesome
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  81. #81
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    Would be great to see how the Gemini OLYMPIA compares to the Dinotte XML-3.

    I am surprised that the Chinese made light cost almost as much as the Dinotte.

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    Took my Olympia out on the rail trail and some single track tonight. Also took the 2nd gen Xera w/optic and Titan XM-L. I tried various combos of head and bar lights between the 3. The Olympia blows away the Titan and the Xera. I was trying to decide between using the Olympia on the bar or helmet and kept swapping back and forth. I ended up liking the Olympia on the helmet the best, it did just as well on the bar but a matter of preference. With the Olympia on the helmet, I kept trying a combo with the Xera or Titan on the bars. I decided I really didn't even need a light on the bars with the Olympia on the helmet. If anything I liked having the Titan reflector (would have preferred the Xera w/ reflector for size) on the bars with the Olympia on the helmet. It was easily ride-able with the Olympia on medium and no bar light. If I had one criticism (and it doesn't really count since you can change what the high/med/low settings are) it is that the Olympia is set really low on the low setting. I think I am going to change low/med/high to be more like 50%/75%/100%.

    Had no problem using the Olympia alone on the helmet on the singletrack I tried tonight.

    The spread of light is great! I didn't notice hot spot(s). It is like having a giant/super bright Xera. Which is why I liked it on the helmet.

    As far as heat goes. It was ~47 deg F outside tonight. I left the Olympia on high and the Xera on high and rode for about 15 minutes down the straight section of the rail trail (on the mtn bike). It was a slower than usual ride since the trail was wet and a bit mushy. The xera was warm but fine, the Olympia was warmer than the Xera, but not hot. I could hold onto the Olympia without it feeling too hot to continuously hold onto. Most of the way back I left the Olympia on medium and it stayed nice and cool. I would say they did a very good job with heat management in this size/power light based on this first ride!

  83. #83
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    @adamjt...thanks for the review. I can't wait to get mine
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  84. #84
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    Not knowing there was a US retailer for these lights, I pre-ordered mine a while back kfrom Gemini's website. Apparently it's just leaving Hong Kong now, but I'm bummed I didn't realize I could order through Action LED, I probably would have had it this week.
    pete

  85. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRMOLE View Post
    Jim, could I get you to post the power draw on the Olympia when it comes in. I'd also like to see the readings off the 872 and 880 MS lights. Thanks!
    Now that we have the Olympia's in hand,
    All these readings are taken with a input voltage of 7.4V after about 1 minute of running on high.
    Olympia - 1.92A
    MJ-880 - 2.75A
    MJ-872 - 2.19A
    MJ-816 - 1.82A

    Seeing as the Olympia puts outs as much or more light than the MJ-880 the electronics driving it are obviously much more efficient. Good job Gemini.
    Most buyers should be getting theirs today or tomorrow. I anxious to get some feedback.
    Jim Harger
    Action LED Lights
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  86. #86
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    Why not take the readings with a fully charged battery?



    ***

  87. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by scar View Post
    Why not take the readings with a fully charged battery?



    ***
    7.4V is the nominal or average voltage of the battery. About half the capacity is above this and half is below. If you divide the capacity of the battery by these readings you should get a good approximation of the run time.
    i.e. 5200mAh or 5.2Ah/1.92A = 2.7hours
    Jim Harger
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  88. #88
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    Just checking to see where you were coming from


    ***

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    Is there a problem?

    I ordered a Gemini light 18 days ago and I am still waiting for delivery? I contacted the company via email (as phone numbers do not exist in the US) and after a week or so was told that their delivery process was "cost effective?" Is this standard procedure with this company? Should I be getting nervous????
    Charlie

  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharlieFarrow View Post
    I ordered a Gemini light 18 days ago and I am still waiting for delivery? I contacted the company via email (as phone numbers do not exist in the US) and after a week or so was told that their delivery process was "cost effective?" Is this standard procedure with this company? Should I be getting nervous????
    Charlie
    See pahearn's post above, re shipping direct from Gemini..

    Action-LED has already shipped theirs out...I expect mine today!
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  91. #91
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    USPS says I should get my light today! Unfortunately I'm getting on a plane in an hour for an out of town funeral (Grandma died on her 100th birthday). You guys have fun with your new lights and I'll get to play with mine Sunday when I return. I look foreward to reading all the new posts. Thanks Jim for posting the current draw information. Everything looks fantastic so far.

  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by pahearn View Post
    Not knowing there was a US retailer for these lights, I pre-ordered mine a while back kfrom Gemini's website. Apparently it's just leaving Hong Kong now, but I'm bummed I didn't realize I could order through Action LED, I probably would have had it this week.
    You may yet get your light today. I've had DHL packages arrive in less than 24 hours after leaving HK.
    Jim Harger
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  93. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharlieFarrow View Post
    I ordered a Gemini light 18 days ago and I am still waiting for delivery? I contacted the company via email (as phone numbers do not exist in the US) and after a week or so was told that their delivery process was "cost effective?" Is this standard procedure with this company? Should I be getting nervous????
    Charlie
    Charlie:

    Did you receive an order update from them ever? I received two, one on Feb 17th saying my light was shipped to me, and then another (identical subject line) on Monday with a DHL shipping link. Apparently as of today mine is out for delivery.

    Hope this helps,

    -p
    pete

  94. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Action LED Lights View Post
    You may yet get your light today. I've had DHL packages arrive in less than 24 hours after leaving HK.
    Yes you're right -- I was shocked to see it in HK a few days ago and in my city today.

    Thanks for the info.
    pete

  95. #95
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    After introducing the Registered Airmail service in January, we have now decided to cancel that service for our web store. We will now only be offering one method of delivery, which is our subsidized rate with DHL. We hope to have all packages delivered promptly within 4 business days.

    Best regards,

    Gemini

  96. #96
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    Had a shipping issue with my Olympia from Action LED. It was not Action LED's fault but they made it ALL GOOD! Great customer service and Super fast shipping. A+

  97. #97
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    Got mine a few days ago. Test ride it for an hour over the weekend. This little thing is a beast. I really like what i see.
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  98. #98
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    I got a chance to try out my Olympia last night, I'm using it as a helmet lamp with no supplemental lighting. It is definitely really bright with nice, fairly even spill -- but I'm not sure yet if it has enough throw for my tastes. If I wasn't hammering it was really great, but I began to feel a little less comfortable at high speed. It might be that I just have to get used to not having the throw or tighter beam my previous lamp did (original Magicshine), for all I know I might have become used to a tighter spot that wasn't even beneficial to me anyway. Need more time with it.

    Anyone else have opinions yet?

    Also, are there lenses that will fit to tighen the light pattern up a bit? I wouldn't mind experimenting. I have a feeling I might prefer something just a tad tighter if I got some extra distance.

    All said this is a great lamp, I do love it.
    pete

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    I too tried my Olympia last night as a helmet light. Although I was pleased with the amount of light, I too felt that I could use a little more throw, but I understand that Olympia was designed as a bar light so I should probably not complain about the throw.

    Majority of people complained about MJ-808E's tighter beam, but I liked it lot. If you go fast enough you would be able to appreciate its throw. The one thing I didn't like about the magicshine was that it was very heavy as a helmet light, enough to cause helmet to move around.

    I am now considering getting Xera as my helmet light, but I am not sure about the throw. I've read somewhere that a lighthead needs to have a large&deep reflector to attain a long throw so Xera's small body leave me a concern.

    As for the lenses, I am not sure yet, but these might fit Olympia?

    Quote Originally Posted by pahearn View Post
    I got a chance to try out my Olympia last night, I'm using it as a helmet lamp with no supplemental lighting. It is definitely really bright with nice, fairly even spill -- but I'm not sure yet if it has enough throw for my tastes. If I wasn't hammering it was really great, but I began to feel a little less comfortable at high speed. It might be that I just have to get used to not having the throw or tighter beam my previous lamp did (original Magicshine), for all I know I might have become used to a tighter spot that wasn't even beneficial to me anyway. Need more time with it.

    Anyone else have opinions yet?

    Also, are there lenses that will fit to tighen the light pattern up a bit? I wouldn't mind experimenting. I have a feeling I might prefer something just a tad tighter if I got some extra distance.

    All said this is a great lamp, I do love it.

  100. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by butasan View Post
    As for the lenses, I am not sure yet, but these might fit Olympia?
    I am pretty sure that is what the Olympia already uses.

  101. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by butasan View Post
    I too tried my Olympia last night as a helmet light. Although I was pleased with the amount of light, I too felt that I could use a little more throw, but I understand that Olympia was designed as a bar light so I should probably not complain about the throw.
    I am now considering getting Xera as my helmet light, but I am not sure about the throw. I've read somewhere that a lighthead needs to have a large&deep reflector to attain a long throw so Xera's small body leave me a concern.
    The stock Xera optics have a fairly narrow spot that smoothly transitions to the spill. If you want a tighter spot the Xera reflector turns it into a very tight beam with minimal spill so you really get a lot of throw. It is plenty large enough to control the beam. It's when you start getting below 3/4" that control starts getting harder. It's also more of a problem with old incandescent lights because the light comes from a larger area. The XML is such a small spot source that it's easier to control.
    Jim Harger
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  102. #102
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    – So you are saying that Xera has more throw compared to Olympia? If it does, I will definitely get it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Action LED Lights View Post
    The stock Xera optics have a fairly narrow spot that smoothly transitions to the spill. If you want a tighter spot the Xera reflector turns it into a very tight beam with minimal spill so you really get a lot of throw.

  103. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by butasan View Post
    – So you are saying that Xera has more throw compared to Olympia? If it does, I will definitely get it.
    I'll let others with more experience give there opinion but I would say the 2 complement each other quite well.
    Last edited by Action LED Lights; 02-29-2012 at 12:26 PM.
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  104. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by butasan View Post
    – So you are saying that Xera has more throw compared to Olympia? If it does, I will definitely get it.
    there is a thread down the page titled "thrower wanted" that might help answer your question.

  105. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vancbiker View Post
    I am pretty sure that is what the Olympia already uses.
    That would be a good thing, since it looks like they come in three angles, 9.5, 12.5 and 20 degrees. Gemini's site claims a beam angle of 19 degrees, so maybe it's using the 20 degree lense.

    Could someone from Gemini comment on this?
    pete

  106. #106
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    Olympia (on the bars) feedback vs/in conjunction with the Xera

    I got the Xera a couple weeks ago, to use as my helmet light, and have run it for one 24-hour race. Love it...I posted up about that in the Xera thread.

    I ordered the Olympia for my bars, but it was not ready for that race, so I cobbled together another bar light in the interim.

    I got the Olympia last week (thanks Jim/Action LED!), and ran the Xera helmet/Olympia bars combo for the first time this morning. I loved the combo...here are some initial observations (I am not overly technical about all the lighting stuff and specs, just an experienced night rider, etc):
    - I have the stock reflectors of each light
    - Xera is definitely more of a tighter spot; Olympia more of a "spread." I could see the Xera's spot-beam in the spread of the Olympia beam. And that Xera beam goes out a ways...that light is bad-ass.
    - Xera is definitely better on the helmet, and Olympia is definitely better on the bars. The Xera's spot, and the Olympia's spread complemented each other perfectly.
    - I ran both lights on Medium...that was all I needed with the two of them together, plus it conserves battery power. I was hammering fast, on moderately tech terrain, and it was awesome...I can't imagine running both on High.
    - The Olympia stayed nice and snug and in-place on the bars with the larger O-ring (I run 29'er bars that are thicker in the middle). Love the pivot feature so I can aim it properly. I previously ran a Magicshine on the bars, and it bounced all over the place, always ended up pointed down, and could never be aimed properly.
    - The Xera + 2.4Ah battery is light as hell on the helmet...does't cause any helmet bounce/shifting at all. Love how clean and light it is.

    I am totally pleased with my choice of these lights, and love the setup and the light combo/spread.

    BTW, Jim at Action LED rocks!!

    Walt in AZ
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  107. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by butasan View Post
    – So you are saying that Xera has more throw compared to Olympia? If it does, I will definitely get it.
    Perhaps I can provide a little detail here. I have a Olympia and a Xera with an optic and just received a xera with a reflector. The Xera with the reflector do provide a tight spot in comparison to the optic.

    When using the xera along with the Olympia, the xera optic does not do much in helping with the throw. It just lights up everything in front of your path brighter. However xera with a reflector does help with the throw when used with the Olympia.

    Here is the interesting thing. If you have an object 100ft away and had both the xera with reflector and Olympia on high pointing at the object, the object with appear very bright. If you cover either the xera or Olympia with your palm, you will notice that the amount if brightness of that 100ft object will appears to have the same amount of brightness from either light by itself. However in real life, my eyes get to used to the close proximity wash out effect from the Olympia such that I don't see much of an throw although when bench testing at still motion show the same as the xrea with reflector. When I am out riding, the tight spot from the Xera with relector gives it the throw since it is concentrated at the same spot of what the Olympia can throw. Now the throw is twice as bright while the close proximity range remains about the same yeilding in a better definition of distant perpective. The tight spot of the xera with reflector allows for better throw without additional close range wash out effect.

    Edit: I used the Olympia for three days now and I found the Xera reflector and Olympia combo to be a pretty good combo. Olympia with Xera/optic gets too bright at close range making distant object appears darker. Olympia alone does a pretty good job alone but still need a little tad more on the throw, while the Xera/reflector and olympia combo just about fill that gap.
    Last edited by colleen c; 02-29-2012 at 04:02 PM. Reason: Some pretty bad spelling.

  108. #108
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    Any thoughts on Olympia with 12.5° optics?

    The price difference between Xera and Olympia lightheads is not too significant so I would rather get a more powerful one.

  109. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by butasan View Post
    Any thoughts on Olympia with 12.5° optics?
    You will end up with a wider beam than stock with the optic linked. Note in the Cutter page that the beam angle number has +/- in front of it. A 12.5 degree optic really has a 25 degree spread.

  110. #110
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    Oops. Glad I asked!

    Quote Originally Posted by Vancbiker View Post
    You will end up with a wider beam than stock with the optic linked. Note in the Cutter page that the beam angle number has +/- in front of it. A 12.5 degree optic really has a 25 degree spread.

  111. #111
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    Son of a *****. I didn't notice that, and ordered both the 9.5 and the 12.5. I guess that's why the Gemini site says the angle is 19 degress. Looks like i just wasted ~$25.00.

    On the plus side, i briefly read on candle power forums about someone who polished their cute-3 lens to get a tighter beam. Now that i will have two, i guess i will be able to experiment. :/
    pete

  112. #112
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    You can sand and fire polish. try only polishing the top optic and leave the bottom diffused to get flood
    I always type in bold cuz I'm blind as a bat
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  113. #113
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    I was thinking that would make sense too, i've never done anything like this before though. Do you happen to have any informational links on how to best do this, or can you offer advice? I'm confident in my ability if i have some direction.

    Thanks!
    pete

  114. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by pahearn View Post
    I was thinking that would make sense too, i've never done anything like this before though. Do you happen to have any informational links on how to best do this, or can you offer advice? I'm confident in my ability if i have some direction.

    Thanks!
    I just sand the area smooth were you want to fire polish and hit it with a pencil torch hold the flame away from the plastic and wait till it starts to bubble slightly then pull the flame further away at that point , it takes a little practice to find the sweet spot on how far to hold the flame.
    I always type in bold cuz I'm blind as a bat
    For the Rich there is therapy!!!! for the rest of us we have Mountain Biking


  115. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by pahearn View Post
    Son of a *****. I didn't notice that, and ordered both the 9.5 and the 12.5. I guess that's why the Gemini site says the angle is 19 degress. Looks like i just wasted ~$25.00.

    On the plus side, i briefly read on candle power forums about someone who polished their cute-3 lens to get a tighter beam. Now that i will have two, i guess i will be able to experiment. :/
    Sorry I didn't mention the angle specification in my first post about this optic. It is a bit confusing in how optics manufacturers vary in how they report beam distribution.

    Taking the "bobbles" off the Cute SS optic seems to narrow it up, but I don't think it adds throw. I recently did this on the last new design I built on the advice of one of the posters on the DIY lights forum. I wet sanded the optic with 320 grit paper. Do tthe sanding with the paper laying on a flat suface and sweep the optic in a figure 8 pattern. After the bumps are removed, start working through finer grits of paper keeping it well wetted. I finished at 1000 grit. Then I polished with a car polish and then finished it off with plastic polish. I didn't feel like trying the flame polish though it would likely be a bit faster. While all this sounds like a lot of work, it only took about 30 minutes.

  116. #116
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    It's my bad, I wasn't paying attention and was hasty in placing my order. Not the first time I've done that!

    Thanks for the tips. I may try despite the possibility of not getting any more throw, just to experiment.
    pete

  117. #117
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    Wow...you guys (and gals?) are something else...that level of detail and fussiness would kill me...

    I just opened the box, charged the batteries, strapped on the lights, and rode...both the Xera and the Olympia are bomber OOTB, for me...YMMV...
    Ride more; post less...

  118. #118
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    I've been out the last few nights comparing the olympia with my other lights (BikeRay IV, MS 808 & 808e with and without action wide angle lens) and thought I'd figured their comparative strengths and weaknesses untill Wednesday night. I'd been riding on unlit canal banks (25+ yards wide 1 mile long sections) until Wed. where I was riding on a bike path (unlit) that has a 1/4 mile section with a 5%+ grade. While climbing where I could look up slightly to see the full throw instead of having to look through the glare of the hot spot it definately had more throw than was appearent riding along the flat canal. The previous night I'd taken one of the wide angle lenses out of one of my MS lights to see what it would do if I just held it over the front of the olympia. I wasn't sure what to expect holding one optic over another but it worked excellent. It eliminated the hot spot, slightly widened the beam (mostly around the wheel), and didn't seem to shorten the throw much (this was on the canal bank so it' just how I visually preceived it). Jim (Action) have you had time to experiment with the olympia yet? I'm not trying to make any point here, just sharing my observations. Love the light so far!

  119. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRMOLE View Post
    The previous night I'd taken one of the wide angle lenses out of one of my MS lights to see what it would do if I just held it over the front of the olympia. I wasn't sure what to expect holding one optic over another but it worked excellent. It eliminated the hot spot, slightly widened the beam (mostly around the wheel), and didn't seem to shorten the throw much (this was on the canal bank so it' just how I visually preceived it). Jim (Action) have you had time to experiment with the olympia yet?
    I'm looking into a wide angle lens for the Olympia and Xera. For those enterprising DIY types, I have taken the current wide angle lens and cut it down to fit under the glass lens on a Xera equipped with a reflector. (I used a drum sander attachment in my drill press)
    The result is much like the lens in a Titan or 808, turning the spot into a wide oval. I also tried attaching it to the front of a Xera that had a stock lens and had good results. (You can use a thin strip of double stick tape on the front edge of the bezel to attach it.)
    This will work on the Olympia too but the effect is much less pronounced. It would take a customized solution to do any real beam shaping on it.
    The problem with a permanent solution for either of these is the tooling cost. I have to have enough volume to pay for the mold.
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  120. #120
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    I took my Olympia for a first ride last night. Tons of light output. I'd describe it as a big xera in every way. It's obviously a slightly larger housing. The beam is tight with very little spill just like the xera, but has a slightly larger beam angle. Just as advertised. The throw is about equal, so just imagine a xera that covers slightly more area. I was actually hoping for a little bit of spill for the peripheral vision while mounted on the bars. I really like the bikeray 3 pattern on the bars - for reference. I set my middle custom level on the olympia to 80% and it seems to equal the output of the bikeray 3 on high. I'm pretty happy overall.

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    I run Gemini Olympia on bars and MagicShine 880 on helmet. Colors dont match up perfectly with Olympia being a little more white. MJ880 has more throw and I would say more overall lumens.I find this combo sufficient for Cat1 XC speeds.
    I took my MJ880 with me to purchase a "night" helmet and found a Bell (top of the line model?) that the 880 fit to perfectly without the lame plastic mount.
    Purchased from Action LED, I highly reccomend
    Last edited by sevencycle; 03-03-2012 at 08:29 PM.

  122. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Action LED Lights View Post
    I'm looking into a wide angle lens for the Olympia
    The Cute SS appears to me to be the optic used in the Olympia. That series has medium and wide versions.

    Cutter Electronics

  123. #123
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    Edit

    Please disregard this post.

    I had lots of beamshot of the Olympia and Xera in comparison with other light I had but then noticed the camera setting was wrong on the shutter speed.
    Last edited by colleen c; 03-04-2012 at 03:48 PM.

  124. #124
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    Ok here is the correct beamshot I took again since my last post had the wrong setting.

    All setting are MTBR standard but since my camera in manual cannot do ISO 100 but ISO 200 instead, I compensate that using a shutter speed of 2sec instead of 4sec.

    There is one 2 litter bottle and two 1 litter bottle at 100ft. The second tree in the background is 150ft while the farthest tree is 200ft.

    More beamshot including MS, Bikeray, Gloworm and the control shot can be seen here:
    Gemini Olympia and Xera beamshot comparison pictures by Colleenlc - Photobucket


    Olympia



    Olympia with Xera using Optic


    Olympia with Xera using Reflector



    Interesting is that the Olympia alone can throw as good as the MS 808E xml

  125. #125
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    [COLOR="Red"][I][ I really like the bikeray 3 pattern on the bars - for reference. I set my middle custom level on the olympia to 80% and it seems to equal the output of the bikeray 3 on high. I'm pretty happy overall.[/QUOTE]

    I'm curious how you had your light aimed? When I saw your post It didn't seem to match what I had observed. I reset my olympia presets to 50-80-100 and took my BikeRay IV along to see what I'd get. If I had the Olympia aimed up high enough I cold aproximate the brightness of the BR IV but the Olympia covered a much bigger area. If I aimed the Olympia to approximate the same lit area it was pretty close to the 50% setting (60% would be generous).
    I also found I prefer the Olympia set @ 80% better than 100%. It softens the hot spot a little.
    Last but not least, It was 70 degrees-F and I got a chance to ride both lights on high for about 4 miles and they were only warm to the touch when I stopped. No heat problems so far.

  126. #126
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    EXCELLENT job!

    It looks to me that Xera's reflector is not really helping with the throw, but the wider spill.

    Quote Originally Posted by colleen c View Post
    Ok here is the correct beamshot I took again since my last post had the wrong setting.

    All setting are MTBR standard but since my camera in manual cannot do ISO 100 but ISO 200 instead, I compensate that using a shutter speed of 2sec instead of 4sec.

    There is one 2 litter bottle and two 1 litter bottle at 100ft. The second tree in the background is 150ft while the farthest tree is 200ft.

  127. #127
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    It seems the reflector is less efficient than the optic. It just restricts the output to a narrower beam without increasing the overall brightness significantly. However, it does make the foreground light less blinding.
    Click the thumbs up button if you have a thumb...

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    A quick thank you for everyones advice. I am using the Gemini on my helmet and Olympia on the bars, I have nothing to compare to but, I can tell you this combination has greatly helped extend my biking season and allowed me to stay in condition. The winter season has been a blast.

  129. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by GraXXoR View Post
    It seems the reflector is less efficient than the optic. It just restricts the output to a narrower beam without increasing the overall brightness significantly. However, it does make the foreground light less blinding.
    Quote Originally Posted by butasan View Post
    EXCELLENT job!

    It looks to me that Xera's reflector is not really helping with the throw, but the wider spill.
    Yes, I too notice there is not too much difference in throw between the optic and reflector for the Xera. If anything, it is slightly more with the reflector if I point them straight at the tree instead of the bottle. The reflector does provide some side spill but not so much in the immediate foreground for the first 50ft or so.

    Effect wise, when using the xera/reflector along with the Olympia, it helps to cut down on the foreground glare while still helping with some extra throw. OTOH, Xera/reflector is not as useful when used alone. The optic is better. I run two Xera ony drop bar commuting bike. Two Xera/optic had too much spill and I cannot see the throw, but two Xera/reflector makes a nice combo light offering a balance of spill and throw.

    Depending on the setu, the reflector does have some advantage and disadvantage.

  130. #130
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    my Magicshine 880 has Way more throw then my Olympia. MS880 for helmet and Olympia for bars is my best combo to date. Comparing the 2 the 880 is a v8 and Olympia is a turbo4

  131. #131
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    I think I'm going this route.

    I like the Xera's light weight, but it seems to me just the weaker version of Olympia so I don't think I will get a good throw regardless of the use of the reflector.

    Quote Originally Posted by sevencycle View Post
    I run Gemini Olympia on bars and MagicShine 880 on helmet. Colors dont match up perfectly with Olympia being a little more white. MJ880 has more throw and I would say more overall lumens.I find this combo sufficient for Cat1 XC speeds.
    I took my MJ880 with me to purchase a "night" helmet and found a Bell (top of the line model?) that the 880 fit to perfectly without the lame plastic mount.
    Purchased from Action LED, I highly reccomend
    Quote Originally Posted by sevencycle View Post
    my Magicshine 880 has Way more throw then my Olympia. MS880 for helmet and Olympia for bars is my best combo to date. Comparing the 2 the 880 is a v8 and Olympia is a turbo4

  132. #132
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    Cool. Action LED will ship out the day you order. I have no connection with them other than a purchase.
    I rode last night and took my standard t6 magicshine (spot) to compare.TheMS8?? helmet spot did work ok with the Olympia. But when I went back to the MS880 I didnt realize how much spill it added plus the size of the spot was times 2 and whiter.
    I feel I have a good opinion on lights being, Old with bad eyesight, Kinda fast usually top 3 Cat1, Experienced, Raced the very first 24hr race in Slatey Fork WV... 1992?? and many after that.

  133. #133
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    I just did a review on the Olympia at another forum. I will post the review here for all to see. There is some notes with looking at like the 6cell runtime and lux reading for the User Intuitive programing. Here is the Review I wrote:


    Gemini manufacture introduced their line of bicycle lights with the introduction of the Titan P7, since that time, they have now introduced the Gemini Xera and Olympia in which both of these fine lights uses the Cree XML. I purchase both of these lights and was impress by the features and performance of these light. A little over a year ago, I did a review of the Titan P7 and I feel that the Gemini Olympia is worthy of an review. The Olympia light uses 3 XML led to provide a manufacture rated 1700 lumens using an optic that is 19-degree beam. The runtime from their 5200 mah pack is 2hrs as listed. They also offer an optional 6 cells 8400 mah pack, which allows for a 3.5 hrs of runtime. The listed weight of the Olympia light is listed at 78g which is consider pretty light enough to be mounted on the helmet. It has a user intuitive programming for the brightness in all of the three mode plus strobe mode. One can be overwhelm with these listed feature and is curious how well the Gemini Olympia will perform the claimed listing. I bought one of the Olympia light package which had all their accessories including the 6 cell battery, and after several weeks of using this light, I found the Olympia was worthy of a review.

    The package with the 6 cells battery arrived a little later than I was hoping for. The DHL tracking showed the package was sitting at Hong Kong for several days and I figure there might have been a problem. Not long after that, I received a notice that Gemini has sent what seem like another package and sent me a notification. I was not home at the time of the delivery and Gemini sends me an email notifying me that the package did not get deliver. It was nice to have some assurance of customer support when there is problem with delivery and Gemini did just that. My package arrived safety and undamaged. The content in the box included the following:

    Light
    Battery
    Charger
    Helmet mount
    Pro Head belt
    O-ring
    Extension cable









    Physical size
    The size of the Olympia is smaller than the Magicshine P7. I took a weight measurement of the light head with my scale and the scale showed 82 gram. The difference in the listed 79g vs. my 82g might be in the scale itself. Here are some pictures of the light head along with it in comparison with the Magicshine 808 P7

















    The weight of the 6 cell battery was weighted at 322 gram including the nylon pouch.. The 6 cells battery was shipped charged at 7.61v. I charged it but notice that the charger did not terminated at 8.4 volt. The charger had 8.7 volt written on it and I figure that was intentional. After emailing Gemini, they assure me that was Ok for the 6 cells battery. I charged the battery and the termination voltage read 8.76 volt. As soon as I unplug the charger from the battery and check the SOC of the battery, the battery volt read 8.42 volt. After charging, I plugged in the light to the battery and notice how bright this light was putting out. I have a lux meter and did a 5ft ceiling bounce test in my 10x8 room to see how many lux this little light head was putting out. I got a reading of 162.5 lux. Not bad for a little light.



    Programming
    One of the neat features of the Olympia light is the User Intuitive programming . It allows for adjustment for the brightness of the light in any mode. It has three modes and a strobe mode. You can access any of the three modes without having to go through the strobe mode. In each mode, you can program the level of brightness in any increment of 10 steps. This feature allow the user to be able to program each mode to anyway they want such that the unit can be program for sequence instead of being stuck in the OEM setting of H-M-L or L-M-H. This feature goes for the same in the strobe mode. What nice about that is that now you don’t have to put up with a strobe that is strobe at 100% brightness. The programming of the setting is very easy and can be set out in the field. I took a lux reading of each of the 10 increments step for the programming and here what I measured.

    1- 6. lux
    2- 11 lux
    3- 24 lux
    4- 40 lux
    5- 57 lux
    6- 74 lux
    7- 92 lux
    8- 111 lux
    9- 130 lux
    10- 162 lux


    Battery Runtime
    The performance from the 6 cells battery is promise as claim and more. I started with the battery fully charged with a SOC of 8.4v and the battery indicator showing green. Here is what I got:

    After 2 ½ hours of total runtime: the indicator turned yellow and the battery read 7.09v.
    After 3hrs 10 min of total runtime: the indicator was red and battery read 7.01v.
    After 4hrs 5min of total runtime: the indicator was blinking red and battery read 6.64v.

    Afterward the unit went into low mode and I stop the runtime test. I was please to find that the Olympia runtime was better than what the runtime was suppose to be. I took a Lux reading with a ceiling bounce test at the last ½ hours of runtime and the Lux meter read 150 lux. This tells me the regulation was pretty close to flat line.



    Beam shot
    The Olympia is very bright for use in the trail or road. The beam pattern has more flood than throw, however the throw is not really bad at all. It can provide enough throw to be used as a stand alone light, but adding an additional throw light such as the MS 808E xml or a thrower flashlight will spice thing up quite a bit. Gemini offers the Xera light with a throw reflector optic, which I am using currently and gosh does the combination with the Olympia, really lights everything up in front of me. Recently they are testing a different reflector for their Xera line for even a more throw pattern. Here is a picture of the Olympia beam. There is two 1 litter bottle and one 2 litter bottle on the grass at 100ft. The tree behind that is 150ft and the last tree is 200ft. The picture was taken at F4.0, 2sec, ISO200, daylight, and manual focus.



    I have much more pictures with comparison of the Olympia beam shot along with many other lights I have in my collection like the MS P7, MS XML, Bikeray IV, Gloworm etc. This album also contain the control shot and daytime shot showing the setting. They can be found here:

    Gemini Olympia and Xera beamshot comparison pictures by Colleenlc - Photobucket


    Other mounts
    In my helmet setup, I had mounted the Olympia along with the Xera on my helmet. I decide to use a different mount than what came with the Olympia. The Oring mount is OK for most but I prefer the mount offered by Cateye although the tilt adjustment is not as fine as using an Oring mount. On the other hand, the Cateye does offer easier removal and somewhat a lower profile. There some mod that has to be done to fit besides just removing the screw. The screw of the Olympia is a large head and the Cateye spacer had to be drill for clearance so that the screw sit flush and slide over the helmet mount with ease after filing the side of the mount. It is easy process and takes a few minute to adapt. The Cateye helmet mount is #534-1831 while the space is #533-8730 model H-27. Here are some picture of the Olympia at the top of my helmet and a Xera in front using Cateye mount.





    conclusion
    I’m please with this light so far. The price is higher than some lights but yet lower than some others. I think it is a good upgrade for those who are consider a single brighter light for their lighting system. The small size and User Intuitive programming features will helps with those who seeks a light that is user selectable which is one of the best feature I found with this light.

  134. #134
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    Nice review... try one more thing if you get a chance.
    Take the light indoors and turn it on the highest power output in steady burn mode and just let it run and see what happens...
    If you have access to a "laser" thermometer, take some readings at various places around the case and note when/if thermal cutback occurs. If the temperature of the case gets above 140F before any thermal cutback occurs, probably best to abort and shut it off.
    Inquiring minds want to know...

  135. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by pethelman View Post
    Nice review... try one more thing if you get a chance.
    Take the light indoors and turn it on the highest power output in steady burn mode and just let it run and see what happens...
    If you have access to a "laser" thermometer, take some readings at various places around the case and note when/if thermal cutback occurs. If the temperature of the case gets above 140F before any thermal cutback occurs, probably best to abort and shut it off.
    Inquiring minds want to know...
    Done! (I work in an industry shop and just happen to have a thermo gun)

    I took some reading. The hot spot is dead center top near the bezel. It was only about 2 degree difference elsewhere on the body. I am not sure what the Emissivity should be set at on the thermo gun. I know it is different on Aluminium and not really sure what it is on silver anodized AL. I just left it at the turn on default of 0.93

    The unit did not cut back at 140 F.

    Ambient = 63
    1 min = 83
    2 min = 96
    3 min = 113
    4 min = 123
    5 min = 136
    5 1/2 min = 140
    6 min = 143
    Last edited by colleen c; 03-12-2012 at 10:35 AM. Reason: Corrected ambient and added 1 min reading.

  136. #136
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    Nice!
    The conclusion from this is that you should probably avoid running the light at full power under conditions of little to no convective cooling, not only to prevent burning yourself but also damaging the LEDs.

    EDIT (3/15): Pure conjecture on my part with limited data... Gemini states below in a later post that they have tested repeatedly that cutback occurs at a 63-ish degC case temperature (hopefully under these same circumstances), which is roughly 145 degF. So hopefully just a few seconds more, and colleen would have seen a reduction in power. Please take any analysis below as a "what if" scenario, and realize that turning on ANY high power LED light, STARTING from ambient temeratures with no air-flow is an absolute worst case scenario, and should normally not occur.

    So lets assume a 14 watt power draw just in the LEDs. We want to estimate the LED junction temperature based on the measured external case temperature. We know, based on CREE's datasheet that the XML die itself has a thermal resistance of 2.5 degC/watt. So the problem now becomes, "what is the total remaining thermal resistance to the outside world that would be required to keep the junction temp below 150C when the case temperature is at 143F (62C)?" (Obviously the temperature rise was not going to stop at 143, but just for sake of argument). This thermal path includes:

    Die-to-substrate junction (usually low),
    Substrate-to-mount junction (probably low but dependent on quality of thermal compound),
    Mount-to-housing junction (dependent on method of assembly and/or thermal compound),
    Housing-to-ambient (dependent on the design of the case, total exposed surface area, and presence/lack of forced convection).

    Or simply stated (at 6 minutes):
    150C = 14watts * (2.5 degC/W + ? degC/W) + 62C

    Solving for ? = 3.78 degC per Watt
    This would be VERY difficult under static ambient conditions. As a designer with a conservate bent, I would have liked to have seen the thermal protection kick in around minute 3. Just my preference, NOT a necessity.

    It'd also be interesting to see similar test results over a longer time period with simulated air-flow, comparable to climbing speeds.
    Last edited by pethelman; 03-15-2012 at 09:14 AM.

  137. #137
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    Colleen, just out of curiosity is there any way you can do one of those thermal scans on the Gloworm X2....pretty please!

  138. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by pethelman View Post
    Nice!
    The conclusion from this is that you should probably avoid running the light at full power under conditions of little to no convective cooling, not only to prevent burning yourself but also damaging the LEDs.....

    ...... At a minimum, there should be some verbiage in the instructions telling the user to be-ware these scenarios. As usual though, completely just my opinion.
    I would think by now that most people would know this about "any" LED lamp. Seeing that there are more and more lamps now using multiple LED's it is real important to power down when stopped or slow climbing for periods longer than ten minutes.

  139. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do View Post
    I would think by now that most people would know this about "any" LED lamp. Seeing that there are more and more lamps now using multiple LED's it is real important to power down when stopped or slow climbing for periods longer than ten minutes.
    I'm not so sure I'd go that far and say "most" in general, but definitely most of the folks that frequent the boards here have a keen sense of how to handle the high power lights. Hopefully this conversation will increase awareness to some degree.
    Last edited by pethelman; 03-15-2012 at 09:03 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do View Post
    Colleen, just out of curiosity is there any way you can do one of those thermal scans on the Gloworm X2....pretty please!
    No problem, I was a little curious myself to see how the Gloworm X2 compare. The number was almost identical in term of temperature and time. The mode was at 1200 lumens. Here they are:

    Ambient temp = 67.7 F
    1 min = 86 F
    2 min = 100 F
    3 min = 114 F
    4 min =125 F
    5 min = 135 F
    5 min 44 sec = 140 F
    6 min = 142 F
    6 min 30 sec = 147 F

    No cutback even at 147 F

    This was the 1200 lumen mode. I can only imagine it will rise faster in the 1300 lumen mode. The temperature rises for the X2 at 1200 lumens mode using two LED is almost the same as the Olympia at the 1700 lumens mode using three LED. Interesting huh?

  141. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by colleen c View Post
    No problem, I was a little curious myself to see how the Gloworm X2 compare. The number was almost identical in term of temperature and time. The mode was at 1200 lumens. Here they are:

    Ambient temp = 67.7 F
    1 min = 86 F
    2 min = 100 F
    3 min = 114 F
    4 min =125 F
    5 min = 135 F
    5 min 44 sec = 140 F
    6 min = 142 F
    6 min 30 sec = 147 F

    No cutback even at 147 F

    This was the 1200 lumen mode. I can only imagine it will rise faster in the 1300 lumen mode. The temperature rises for the X2 at 1200 lumens mode using two LED is almost the same as the Olympia at the 1700 lumens mode using three LED. Interesting huh?
    Hi Guys,

    Just to shed a little light on the situation (couldn't resist) - the thermal cutback at the board is set at 70deg C (158F). We will be reducing this to 60deg (140F) for V2.

    I can only suggest that the Watts produced by the X2 are the same or similar to that of the Olympia hence the temp increase similarities. The thermal/surface area characteristics of the cases also seem to be similar. We're looking at 14W max for the X2 at 1200 lumens.

    Hope this stimulates or helps the conversation.

    Cheers

    Bruce
    Gloworm
    NZ
    Gloworm Lights - 'Create Your Escape'
    High End LED Light Designer - New Zealand

  142. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by colleen c View Post
    Done! (I work in an industry shop and just happen to have a thermo gun)

    I took some reading. The hot spot is dead center top near the bezel. It was only about 2 degree difference elsewhere on the body. I am not sure what the Emissivity should be set at on the thermo gun. I know it is different on Aluminium and not really sure what it is on silver anodized AL. I just left it at the turn on default of 0.93

    The unit did not cut back at 140 F.

    Ambient = 63
    1 min = 83
    2 min = 96
    3 min = 113
    4 min = 123
    5 min = 136
    5 1/2 min = 140
    6 min = 143
    OK, I just couldn't resist... per Jim's comment in post #51, bold emphasis mine:
    Quote Originally Posted by Action LED Lights View Post
    I understand your concern about heat and electronics, but from what I have seen with the Xera and heard about what went into the design of the Olympia, Gemini has put some effort into making sure this is not a problem. According to CREE the Junction temperature at the LED is safe up to 150˚C (302˚F) though the life span would be shortened at that temperature. The 50,000 hour life rating is at a temperature of 85˚C.
    The Xera and Olympia are designed to provide a wide path for the heat to get quickly away from the LED and into the housing where just a slight amount of air flow can carry it away. If I remember right they have the temperature sensor set to reduce power at 78˚C. It may have no more surface than the 872 but MS does not give heat flow as much attention. Their LED holder is thin, the contact area between it and the housing is small and they are stingy with the thermal paste. Sometimes there's only a couple of little dots between the two.
    The amount of thermal mass in the LED holder and driver circuit board where the temperature sensing occurs is small so it can react fairly quickly if things start to get too hot. It then cuts the power down to low (20% I think) until things cool off. They have put this thing threw the ringer running it on the bench to assure everything works as intended.
    It should be pointed out that the model equation that I proposed earlier is a very simple "steady-state" equation and does not take into account the thermal mass and temperature gradients that exist in the system as the unit is heating up. By virtue of the fact that the shape of the temperature ramp was still fairly linear when colleen pulled the plug, it tells us that the system still had a good ways to go before hitting "steady-state." In other words, it's "possible" that the LED temperature was already actually "higher" than the 150C limit that the model equation predicts at 6 min, but again this is just a rough prediction during a worst case scenario.

    The trip point temperature that Jim pointed out (78C) refers to the location of the temperature monitoring sensor, NOT the LEDs themselves. This temperature monitoring point, as he states, is ON the controller board itself. So the issue here is very likely that the thermal coupling (resistance) between the LEDs themselves and the controller circuit is not sufficiently low to enable adequately fast (for my liking) thermal cutback during the transient "heating up" phase of operation as demonstrated here. There are three ways to address this problem:
    1. Dramatically lower the thermal resistance between the LEDs and the temperature sensor.
    2. Significantly lower the temperature trip point (down from 78C).
    3. Make it very clear to the user that this scenario really should be avoided.

    #1 can be expensive to implement with a remote temperature sensor. #2 is feasible, but due to the overall low surface area of the case, it's likely that they had to choose this "high" value to sustain operation at steady state in the presence of moderate to low air-flow without the like cutting back pre-maturely. Since addressing #1 or #2 requires extra cost and/or design change, #3 is the only option, and to Gemini's credit, they have put some warning in the literature. Could it be a little more strongly worded? Perhaps, but that's just a matter of opinion. I'm totally OK with a design that is, by nature, capable of operating outside of safe limits, both to the electronics and to the user, as long as adequate warning is given.

    Begin Edit (3/15)
    My sincere hope for this design and overall preference would be that it could truly protect itself, even from any incremental thermal damage under any circumstance. And it may indeed do that. I can't say definitively one way or the other. Clearly there has been enough testing from the manufacturer to determine that the light will not self-destruct or become an immenent burning hazzard, even under a worst case scenario.

    As has been pointed out below, and again, purerly just my opinion, but I do like to take a conservative approach to heat management and stay as far away from the limits as possible without hampering the functionality of the light. Can a more aggressive approach work? Absolutely, and as the manufacturer has pointed out, they have at least included some necessary warning to the user.

    Upon further reflection, it was completely unfair for me to make any claims of fact on the safety features of these lights without firsthand empirical data. So I'll leave the technical interpretation of colleen's test as an interesting aside, but no hard conclusions can be drawn from it. END EDIT
    Last edited by pethelman; 03-15-2012 at 09:26 AM.

  143. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gloworm Manufacture View Post
    We will be reducing this to 60deg (140F) for V2.

    I can only suggest that the Watts produced by the X2 are the same or similar to that of the Olympia hence the temp increase similarities. The thermal/surface area characteristics of the cases also seem to be similar. We're looking at 14W max for the X2 at 1200 lumens.
    Realizing that this should really be it's own thread... total cross-pollination here.
    60C is definitely more appropriate, but you still better have a darn good thermal path to the temperature sensor at 14W. Considerations for heat-sinking the controller board involve MUCH more than just using a good layer of thermal grease. JFWIW

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    Quote Originally Posted by pethelman View Post
    Realizing that this should really be it's own thread... total cross-pollination here.
    60C is definitely more appropriate, but you still better have a darn good thermal path to the temperature sensor at 14W. Considerations for heat-sinking the controller board involve MUCH more than just using a good layer of thermal grease. JFWIW
    +1

    I suspect that most of the drivers are using either a thermister on the board as an input to the MCU or an embedded thermister in the MCU. PCB material will present a poor thermal path between the the housing and thermister. Yes, eventually it will lower the drive current, but only after the emitters have overshot the temperature setting. A low thermal mass housing exacerbates this scenario.

  145. #145
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    Pethelman,

    The thermal resistance between the LED and temperature is very low. We have the LED Aluminum MCPCB mounted onto the same piece of aluminum as the Driver PCB. The PCB is multi-layered with heatsinking and has many thermal vias transferring this heat to the outside retainer. The thermal vias have lots of soldering contact with the aluminum retainer. That's as close as you can get without building a light engine on one PCB.

    As for thermal protection, it is indeed built in. The threshold is set a little higher than 140F. As Cat has mentioned, it's quite common knowledge that LEDs get hot, especially with such high output these days. Yet, the trend is to fit more power into lighter and smaller products.

    We have safety warnings in our user manual. They are located on the very first page under "Safety Precautions". We do inform our users about the extreme brightness (potential eye damage when in direct vision) and heat.

    Here it is:

    Safety Precautions:
    1. When turned on, do not look directly into the light. The OLYMPIA is extremely bright and can damage the eye.
    2. The OLYMPIA is intended for outdoor use. The LED emitter can generate a lot of heat is used without airflow to the aluminum casing. Please be careful.
    3. Use only the supplied Gemini charger to charge the battery pack. Do not use any other chargers, as it may cause damage to the battery.

    With that said, we do expect some people to go without reading through the manual which is why we implement our overheat protection. The protection feature kicks way before any chance of damaging the LEDs.

  146. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by pethelman View Post
    Why not go ahead and tell the whole story... i.e. The built in thermal protection will NOT protect the light if it's initially turned on at the highest power levels and denied air flow. It will become hot enough to burn you and the LEDs will suffer permanent damage. If I were Gemini, I'd be posting it in big RED letters. But then again, that's just my opinion.
    You are entitled to your opinion, however what you have just said is entirely not true.

  147. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini Lights View Post
    You are entitled to your opinion, however what you have just said is entirely not true.
    EDIT (3/15) You know, I don't mind admitting when I'm wrong, and I must say, I have to agree with you here. It was completely unfair of me to make such an emphatic static as if it were fact, based on so many assumptions, so please do accept my apologies for making that insinuation. End EDIT

    We have Jim's (Action LED) comment originally stating a "threshold" of 78C (or thereabouts). This is equivalent to 172.4F. So when you say that the "threshold is set a little higher than 140F", what exactly does this mean? Did the design change at some point from Jim's original comment, or was he just wrong to begin with? It's just confusing.

    (Nitpicking here for sure) To the extent that we now have empirical data showing the case temperature going above 140F with no cutback, and this is the generally accepted temperature at which skin begins to burn, I don't believe it's a "completely" false statement to say that the light will become hot enough to burn the skin. Granted, I doubt anyone would actually touch the light long enough at this temperature to get burned, but still, there's at least some rationale. I'm sure if colleen were to continue to let the light run, we'd eventually see the thermal protection kick in, and hopefully, under these conditions, it would not get so hot that it would "instantly" burn when touched. Would colleen be willing to run the test again to the point where we see thermal cutback occur? Hmmm.

    It's not my intent to spread misinformation, so I agree with you, I cannot state with certainty that damage WILL occur to the LED under the test conditions that colleen performed. We have limited test data, so all we have to fill in the gaps is best engineering judgement. I've made a couple of "critical" assumptions in the process that could certainly stand to be corrected if need be.

    Assumption 1: Max power draw on high = 14 watts
    Assumption 2: LED case-to-outside world thermal resistance = 3.78 degC per Watt

    I made assumption no. 2 by giving the light the benefit of the doubt at 14 watts, and assuming that the steady state output had been reached at the recommended LED die limit of 150C or 302F. My experience says that this number for thermal resistance for this link in the chain is at least VERY conservative.

    It's reasonable to assume (based on the good design technique that you highlighted) that the thermal resistance to the on-board temperature sensor is indeed lower than the composite value to the outside world. This means that the temp sensor should be higher than the value measured at the outside of the case during the 6 minute test.

    Lets assume a LED-case-to-temp-sensor thermal resistance of 2.5 degC per watt (for a total of 5 degC per watt, when including the LED die itself). In this case, using either assumption (140F or 172F) for the temperature threshold for cutback, we should have seen the light cut back during the test. If the thermal resistance was lower than this, then we should have seen the light cut back even sooner.

    Can you explain why the light didn't cut back during colleen's 6 minute test? And perhaps more importantly where I've made any gross mistakes in my assumptions? The chart attached here is reflective of those assumptions. Again, I have to re-iterate that these are estimates based on assumptions, so my apologies for making it sound like confirmed facts. Would love to see some actual test data confirming your statement that the "protection feature kicks *way* before any chance of damaging the LEDs" under the conditions of starting from ambient and turning the light on full power with no air-flow.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Gemini Lights OLYMPIA LED (2012)-gem_thermal_estimate_plot.jpg  

    Last edited by pethelman; 03-15-2012 at 09:41 AM.

  148. #148
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    Pethelmen,

    The cutoff point normally occurs at 63°C ± 1°C (temperature of the outside case). We have tested and retested our lights to ensure the safe handling for our customers. Whilst we appreciate your concern for safety, you can be rest assured that it is perfectly safe to use our light. We don't appreciate your spreading of false claims, saying that the light will in fact burn people and permanently damage the LEDs. We would not release a product if this was the case.

    As for Action LED Lights statement of 78°C, I feel that it was perhaps a miscommunication and the 78°C was referring to the cutoff point of the temperature sensor on board.

    Now put this all aside, there is never the case where the use of a high powered LED light (i.e. Olympia) must strictly be used on the highest mode, indoors and without ventilation. We say this because low mode is all that is ever required to see things indoors and without moving. We will leave the other reasoning up to you because we don't feel it is necessary to state such obvious facts. Normal common sense tells you that if you feel the light heating up, reduce the power. If by chance, you can't do this for whatever reason, the overheat protection kicks in.

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    Much ado about nothing?

    Guys, I'm feeling conflicted about this discussion. On the one hand, I'm running 2 Xeras and and Olympia and I love the way they light up the road for me, especially at the price point. On the other hand, I have a Designshine DS500 on order and I know it will be a kick-a** rear light. You both have slightly different philosophies - Gemini may be a little on the edge of pushing the specs, Designshine a bit more conservative. I believe there is room for both points of view in the marketplace. I understand that my Gemini lights may overheat if I am not attentive. I hope other users also understand this. What it comes down to is buyers doing adequate research and making informed decisions that fit their riding style. While your back-and-forth is interesting and helps keep us informed of the technical issues accompanying every design decision, at some point, methinks you protest too much. While I fully expect to enjoy my Gemini lights for the next couple of years, I realize that the technology is moving so fast that I will probably lust after some new hottie before my Geminis give up the ghost. The DS500 should serve forever, because I don't think more than 500 lumens will ever be needed off the back. So let's not argue the fine points too aggressively- you both are great companies with a proven record of listening to the customer and providing superior customer service.

  150. #150
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    Thank you jgmarcotte. I very much agree.

    We do try to push the performance to the very edge to give you the maximum you can get out of your equipment. We have never put down other products, in fact we feel the DesignShine makes a great set of tail lights. We strongly promote healthy competition, where it only drives product development further than it is today. In the end, with more competition around, only the consumers win.

  151. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini Lights View Post
    The cutoff point normally occurs at 63°C ± 1°C (temperature of the outside case). We have tested and retested our lights to ensure the safe handling for our customers. Whilst we appreciate your concern for safety, you can be rest assured that it is perfectly safe to use our light. We don't appreciate your spreading of false claims, saying that the light will in fact burn people and permanently damage the LEDs. We would not release a product if this was the case.

    As for Action LED Lights statement of 78°C, I feel that it was perhaps a miscommunication and the 78°C was referring to the cutoff point of the temperature sensor on board.

    Now put this all aside, there is never the case where the use of a high powered LED light (i.e. Olympia) must strictly be used on the highest mode, indoors and without ventilation. We say this because low mode is all that is ever required to see things indoors and without moving. We will leave the other reasoning up to you because we don't feel it is necessary to state such obvious facts. Normal common sense tells you that if you feel the light heating up, reduce the power. If by chance, you can't do this for whatever reason, the overheat protection kicks in.
    Thanks Gemini for your clarifications here, and again let me re-iterate that I appologize for all commentary that was/is disparaging of the lights. I clearly let my "soapbox" cloud my better judgement, and I have, to whatever degree possible gone back through previous posts, to make corrections reflecting as much, so as not to mislead any readers.

    I do, in fact, take a very conservative approach to light building and suscribe to the philosophy that the rider should never have to worry about heat while they're riding. This means that regardless of the power level, or temperature of the day, or speed that they're riding, they should just be able to set the light and "forget it." And I have no reason to suspect otherwise for these lights.

    The worst case scenario that was presented here (power on high, indoors, no air-flow), I agree is absurd. But as we know, weird things happen, and perhaps of utmost concern is if children get the light in their hands (probably not a bad idea to add this to the list of warnings... keep out of reach of children). Believe it or not, one of the first things I tell my customers to do is set the light on a hard surface indoors and turn it on full power and just watch it for about 5 to 6 minutes till the thermal protection kicks in. At this point the surface of the case is around 125F to 130F, and I suggest that they touch and handle the light at this point to get a "feel" of what the maximum case temperature should be. Then if at some point in the future the light is ever found to be much hotter, it'll be obvious that there's a problem, and it needs to be shut off.

    More consumer awareness can only be a good thing. More consideration on my part to not make "accusations"... even better.

  152. #152
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    Ok, I'm hoping this temp thing is behind us now. The only reason why I did the test is because there was a dark cloud hanging over us in the begining of this thread on page one concerning with the temp and package size. I'm hoping the finding is informitive for owners of the Olympia or future customers. Based on the data, for me, it is comforting to know that I can leave the light on for X amount of minute with no airflow. I'm thinking about 5 minutes or less if the light was cold or less if the ambient temp of the light is warmer. On top of that, the info Gemini provided here about their safety hi temp system is good info to know the work they put into their design for this light.

    On to other things. It's been raining 4 days in a row here and I was able to run the Olympia and Xera using the prototype optic on high that are mounted on my helmet. I can attest the combo worked well in finding deep pot holes that are almost filled with water. I have this stretch of road where 18 wheelers travel to get to the freeway and potholes are never in the same place as the city patches them and new one are created just as fast. The pothole get fill with water and becomes hard to find but the combo was able to pick them out

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    De nada

    Speaking of pushing the performance edge, I'm very much looking forward to the new Xera spot optic. I trust you will post to the Xera thread when they are available for purchase. Any chance to create a narrower optic for Olympia?

  154. #154
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    Potential issue with my Olympia...

    Quick question to see if I might have an issue with my Olympia: I've run it 4 or 5 times thus far, in conjunction with a Xera on my helmet. It's been great; ran Medium the first few times, then High for a ride. My second-to-last ride, I turned it on to High, and started riding...it immediately started going back and forth from bright to dim to bright to dim, etc. I don't recall if it was in response to bumps in the trail, or a consistent cycling through the brightness settings. In any event, on my last ride, I fired it up, cycled from Low to Medium to High...and it was weirdly dim. I turned it off and started again...still dim...way dimmer than it had been, and way, way dimmer (on High) than my Xera (also on High).

    I didn't bump it at all, and it was fully charged each time.

    Any thoughts?

    Thanks!
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  155. #155
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    Walt, Contact me and we'll get the problem resolved.
    Jim Harger
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  156. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Action LED Lights View Post
    Walt, Contact me and we'll get the problem resolved.
    Will do, Jim...thanks!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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    Can someone with the 6 cell battery post a pic of the battery without the case and take some measurements of the battery pack itself? I want to see where I can build a mount for it and if one will fit in the open pouch in my pack.

  158. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by waltaz View Post
    Quick question to see if I might have an issue with my Olympia: I've run it 4 or 5 times thus far, in conjunction with a Xera on my helmet. It's been great; ran Medium the first few times, then High for a ride. My second-to-last ride, I turned it on to High, and started riding...it immediately started going back and forth from bright to dim to bright to dim, etc. I don't recall if it was in response to bumps in the trail, or a consistent cycling through the brightness settings. In any event, on my last ride, I fired it up, cycled from Low to Medium to High...and it was weirdly dim. I turned it off and started again...still dim...way dimmer than it had been, and way, way dimmer (on High) than my Xera (also on High).

    I didn't bump it at all, and it was fully charged each time.

    Any thoughts?

    Thanks!
    What was the frequency at which it was changing modes?
    pete

  159. #159
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    72.5mm x 55.0mm x 37.1mm
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  160. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by pahearn View Post
    What was the frequency at which it was changing modes?
    Every 5-10 seconds or so...

    The ride after that, it didn't do any changing, but all three modes were much "dimmer" than they should have been.

    I took it out again this morning to see if I was losing my mind, and it was the same as above...much "dimmer" than it should be...

    Jim from ActionLED is all over this for me!
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  161. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by waltaz View Post
    Quick question to see if I might have an issue with my Olympia: I've run it 4 or 5 times thus far, in conjunction with a Xera on my helmet. It's been great; ran Medium the first few times, then High for a ride. My second-to-last ride, I turned it on to High, and started riding...it immediately started going back and forth from bright to dim to bright to dim, etc. I don't recall if it was in response to bumps in the trail, or a consistent cycling through the brightness settings. In any event, on my last ride, I fired it up, cycled from Low to Medium to High...and it was weirdly dim. I turned it off and started again...still dim...way dimmer than it had been, and way, way dimmer (on High) than my Xera (also on High).

    I didn't bump it at all, and it was fully charged each time.

    Any thoughts?

    Thanks!
    Question: Are both the Olympia and Xera on your helmet were power from one battery split with a Y-Cable? If so, was the battery a 4cell battery?

  162. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by colleen c View Post
    Question: Are both the Olympia and Xera on your helmet were power from one battery split with a Y-Cable? If so, was the battery a 4cell battery?
    Nope...Xera is powered by the 2-cell battery mounted on my helmet; Olympia by the 6-cell mounted on my stem. Both fully charged...
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  163. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by colleen c View Post
    Question: Are both the Olympia and Xera on your helmet were power from one battery split with a Y-Cable? If so, was the battery a 4cell battery?
    I tried to run 2x xeras from a single 4 cell and it went into "low battery mode" after about 45 minutes. Bummer even though there was lots o' charge left.
    "It looks flexy"

  164. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by gticlay View Post
    I tried to run 2x xeras from a single 4 cell and it went into "low battery mode" after about 45 minutes. Bummer even though there was lots o' charge left.
    Gclay, In your case that shouldn't be a problem. Your Xeras are sensing the two voltage drops ( instead of just one ). Unless the lights automatically go into a lower mode when this happens you should be fine. Just keep in mind your run time will be cut in two when running two lights from one battery.

  165. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by waltaz View Post
    Nope...Xera is powered by the 2-cell battery mounted on my helmet; Olympia by the 6-cell mounted on my stem. Both fully charged...
    Oh ok. You got something else then. When I tried to use a Y-cable to both Olympia and Xera from one pack, the voltage sag caused premature shutdown and one or the other will blink most likely caused by the Y cable. It sound like something else. Not to worry, you'll in good hands with Gemini and Action Led.

  166. #166
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    I took a picture of the Olympia and Xera with Prototype 14 degree Optics combo. The Olympia is aimed at the bottle at 100ft and the Xera Optics is aimed between the two tree at 150 and 200ft.


    Control shot can be seen at this album

  167. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do View Post
    Gclay, In your case that shouldn't be a problem. Your Xeras are sensing the two voltage drops ( instead of just one ). Unless the lights automatically go into a lower mode when this happens you should be fine. Just keep in mind your run time will be cut in two when running two lights from one battery.
    Cat, well duh! Xera seems to have a higher than normal cutoff.
    "It looks flexy"

  168. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by gticlay View Post
    Cat, well duh! Xera seems to have a higher than normal cutoff.
    Duh indeed!...That is strange though. The Xera is designed to run off of a 2-cell battery. If you are using a 4-cell you wouldn't expect to have a problem running two Xera's from one 4-cell battery. This is another reason I tend not to like the built in electronic sensing of bike lights. Sometimes it can cause problems if you're not using an "out of the box" set up or riding in cold weather.

  169. #169
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    Heat tolerance report - so far so good. I just go back from a 10 mile mountain ride with the termps. in the 90's and no overheating problems (the light was run on high the whole time). The lighthead was quite warm but not to the point where you could burn yourself on it (maybe if you left your hand on it on for awhile). I figured these temps. are warmer than most of you will ever see at night. I'll do an update when our night temps. get into the 100's.
    Has anyone else tried the Olympia as a helmet light? I planned on using it as a bar light and one of my 808e's on the helmet but after trying it on the helmt I think I'll just order another Olympia. Love the light ! Thanks Gemini.

  170. #170
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    For helmet use I find the throw a little too short if you're really hammering. If I could trade a little bit of flood for a little more throw I'd be really happy with it.
    pete

  171. #171
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    OK now these have been out for a while I'm almost ready to bite bullet whats the consensuses on this light, anyone having overheating issues or short run times I plan on using Geomans 6.0 batteries anyone pair one of these up to one of those and have any issues?
    I always type in bold cuz I'm blind as a bat
    For the Rich there is therapy!!!! for the rest of us we have Mountain Biking


  172. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rakuman View Post
    OK now these have been out for a while I'm almost ready to bite bullet whats the consensuses on this light, anyone having overheating issues or short run times I plan on using Geomans 6.0 batteries anyone pair one of these up to one of those and have any issues?
    Mr. Mole ( post #169 ) had a good report. This threads been quiet for a while. I take that as a good sign.

  173. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rakuman View Post
    OK now these have been out for a while I'm almost ready to bite bullet whats the consensuses on this light, anyone having overheating issues or short run times I plan on using Geomans 6.0 batteries anyone pair one of these up to one of those and have any issues?

    I hate to say this, but the Geoman pack does not perform too well with the Olympia. I have the 6.0 and the 4.4 Geoman pack from the recall and tested those on the olympia. I only got 1hr15m for the 4.4 pack on high and 1hr35min for the 6.0 pack. In both cases, the shutdown volt was 6.54v. During the first 1/2hour of runtime, the voltage drop from the 4.4 and 6.0 pack was at 7.1v and 7.23v. The red indicator light was already red at 45 minutes for the 4.4 pack and 1hour for the 6.0 pack.

    Dunno why the Geoman pack sag so much when the Gemini 4cell pack has a much better runtime listing for the Olympia. I don't think it is the cell quality in the geoman pack but the protection circuit might be making it sag more in voltage under that load.

  174. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by colleen c View Post
    I hate to say this, but the Geoman pack does not perform too well with the Olympia. I have the 6.0 and the 4.4 Geoman pack from the recall and tested those on the olympia. I only got 1hr15m for the 4.4 pack on high and 1hr35min for the 6.0 pack. In both cases, the shutdown volt was 6.54v. During the first 1/2hour of runtime, the voltage drop from the 4.4 and 6.0 pack was at 7.1v and 7.23v. The red indicator light was already red at 45 minutes for the 4.4 pack and 1hour for the 6.0 pack.

    Dunno why the Geoman pack sag so much when the Gemini 4cell pack has a much better runtime listing for the Olympia. I don't think it is the cell quality in the geoman pack but the protection circuit might be making it sag more in voltage under that load.

    Thanks Colleen that's good to know I will make sure to bring a extra battery for longer runtimes I bit the bullet last night its hard to turn down 25% off right now
    I always type in bold cuz I'm blind as a bat
    For the Rich there is therapy!!!! for the rest of us we have Mountain Biking


  175. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rakuman View Post

    Thanks Colleen that's good to know I will make sure to bring a extra battery for longer runtimes I bit the bullet last night its hard to turn down 25% off right now
    One very important thing worth mentioning. At the 1hr35m mark for the 6 amphr battery, the Olympia went into a lower setting mode. If you allow the battery to recover for a little while, you can still go into the medium mode and use whatever reserve is left in the Geoman pack. I think the battery is not completly discharge, but just not useable at the high setting. This will give you some extra runtime in a lower output. You do have the programming intuitive option to adjust the brightness to get the maxium possible output while not overloading the pack after it has changed to the lower setting.

  176. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by colleen c View Post
    One very important thing worth mentioning. At the 1hr35m mark for the 6 amphr battery, the Olympia went into a lower setting mode. If you allow the battery to recover for a little while, you can still go into the medium mode and use whatever reserve is left in the Geoman pack. I think the battery is not completly discharge, but just not useable at the high setting. This will give you some extra runtime in a lower output. You do have the programming intuitive option to adjust the brightness to get the maxium possible output while not overloading the pack after it has changed to the lower setting.
    Thanks Colleen 80% of most of my local ridetime is climbing UP so for the first hr I usually run in medium and then crank it up to full for a short 20 min downhill. also when I'm in tight singletrack I usually have my lights at lower settings so not to wash everything out, so for me it sounds like the 6.0 should work fine
    I always type in bold cuz I'm blind as a bat
    For the Rich there is therapy!!!! for the rest of us we have Mountain Biking


  177. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by colleen c View Post
    One very important thing worth mentioning. At the 1hr35m mark for the 6 amphr battery, the Olympia went into a lower setting mode. If you allow the battery to recover for a little while, you can still go into the medium mode and use whatever reserve is left in the Geoman pack. I think the battery is not completly discharge, but just not useable at the high setting. This will give you some extra runtime in a lower output. You do have the programming intuitive option to adjust the brightness to get the maxium possible output while not overloading the pack after it has changed to the lower setting.
    The last three nights I've been doing rundown tests with the olympia lighthead and the three batteries I own (2- 6.0 Geoman and a 5.2ah bikeray). The two Geoman batteries mirrored your results, the bikeray did better at 2 hrs 10 min to flashing red (about what Gemini claims for their 4 cell battery). Something else I did on the Geoman test was to hookup a 808e to the same battery that was on the (powereed down, flashing red) olympia and it happily ran another 1 hr 40 min to flashing red. Looks to me like there's still about half the charge left, so if we can find the sweetspot (power setting) we should get considerable extra runtime. If not, It looks like I'll be looking for a more compatible battery. How do you like your Gemini 6 cell? Is it heavy?

  178. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRMOLE View Post
    The last three nights I've been doing rundown tests with the olympia lighthead and the three batteries I own (2- 6.0 Geoman and a 5.2ah bikeray). The two Geoman batteries mirrored your results, the bikeray did better at 2 hrs 10 min to flashing red (about what Gemini claims for their 4 cell battery). Something else I did on the Geoman test was to hookup a 808e to the same battery that was on the (powereed down, flashing red) olympia and it happily ran another 1 hr 40 min to flashing red. Looks to me like there's still about half the charge left, so if we can find the sweetspot (power setting) we should get considerable extra runtime. If not, It looks like I'll be looking for a more compatible battery. How do you like your Gemini 6 cell? Is it heavy?
    The six cell is no problem when mounted on the bike frame. It is another story off the bike. There is no way that pack is going on my helmet. The extra 2cell does make it a challenge to carry in your clothing because of the shape, bulkiness, and weight. Also try to find any pocket to slip it in on days where I dress casual is a real challenge.

    The solution was simple. I bought one of those photographer vest with gazillion pocket and D-rings. Place the battery in one of the pocket and ran the extension to the mid ring and looping into another ring near the top of the vest and to the back of the helmet where the Olympia connector sits. Problem solved. not only can I carry the battery on my clothing and keep the cord out of the way, but now I can wear whatever clothing I want without worrying about the pack.

  179. #179
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    I did some additional runtime tests on the Olympia light paired with a Geoman 6.0ah battey. Here's what I got (full charge to flashing red).

    100% - 1hr 30 min
    80% - 2hr
    70% - 2hr 20 min
    60% - 4hr 10 min

    I stopped at 60% because the runtime went up so much I figured the voltage drain had dropped to the point where the light head no longer interpreted the battery was fully discharged. Recharging the battery took alot longer when I got to the 60% level also.

    Next interesting characteristic - When to power level got to the end of the blue cycle it started alternating between blue and red avery few seconds, then yellow to red, then just red till the light dimmed and it flashed red. Is this a power fluxuation and could this be potentially damaging to the light head? I'm interested in hearing any opinions.

    I think for now I'll use my BikeRay battery for this light and look into getting a 6 cell Gemini battery or maybe on OpenLight.

  180. #180
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    I found a Geomangear 4.5Ah battery in one of the lights I got from them so I thought I'd do a little testing to see how it behaved under load.



    It tested at full capacity with a 1.5 amp load (black line) which is about what a MJ-808E draws on high.
    At 2 amps (red line) it dropped off to about 4.3Ah. Not bad but other batteries I have tested stay about the same with loads under .5C
    At 2.25A (blue line) things really change. At about 3Ah the battery switches off. Something in the electronic protection say it's working too hard or getting a little hot.
    At 2.5A (green line) it's really pronounced, cutting off at 1.65Ah.
    At 2.7 and above it shuts off after only a few minutes.
    In any case this confirms what people are seeing when running the Olympia on high.
    These batteries are perhaps a bit over protected as 1C is usually considered a safe current draw. (4.5A)
    Jim Harger
    Action LED Lights
    www.action-led-lights.com

  181. #181
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    After using my original Olympia lighthead for a couple of months I relized how much I liked it as a helmet light so I ordered a second unit. I've posted several times on how happy I've been that the light did so well in 100+ degree nights but the second unit proved much more temp. sensitive. I sent the second unit back to be looked at and I wanted to relay the response as to what they found.

    "Gemini made an unanounced change to the Olympia with the older one having the wire exit more to the rear, and the new one on the side. The older one had LEDs and driver mounted on a carrier that was inserted into the housing from the front. Heat had to transfer from this carrier to the housing. The newer one is machined from the front and rear with a web between the 2 cavities. The LEDs are mounted directly to this web. Heat is transfered directly to the housing. There is actually a cap threaded onto the rear where the driver circuit is mounted. It is so well done you can't even see the seam. At the same time they adjusted down the threshold temp. for switching to low. The older one I tested went to 213 degees F before switching. I tested yours and another one like it and they switched @ 175 degrees F (IR thermometer on the side of the housing). So your lighthead is normal, the two are just different generations."

    It sounds like Gemini actually made the light more temperature efficient but decided to be more conservative with the threshold temp. I'm OK with this since 100% power is too much for me on the bars and set @ the 80% setting I've never had a problem. I never had any problems unless it was over 100 degrees but this is information that someone is a warmer climate might want to know before choosing a new light so I thought I would post it.
    Mole

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