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  1. #1
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    Custom light people, the time is now!

    Hey Everyone,

    Many of you may recall that we tried to take the Yinding design, which had some great features, improve on it and take it to the next level. To create a quality budget light that is better than anything out there now and is built with the features that we, the riders, want and need.

    Last attempt was hampered by the need to reach a presale amount that was lofty and not worth the effort.

    Well, Good news! Gearbest finally has the green light to build a custom light without needing a presale commitment. They asked me to write the forum and start the conversation on what to build. Of course the standards like neutral LEDs, programmable drivers and thermal transfer are must.

    So what do you think? Where should we start?

  2. #2
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    Good heat management! Reliability! Compact! Few functions, high "install and forget" level.

  3. #3
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    sounds great !

    I'd like a gopro mount

    nice to have if it's not too much trouble :
    wireless button

    is this a 2 emitter or 3 emitter light ?

  4. #4
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    Assuming we're talking about a helmet light, I think something like what a few of us ended up with by modding the Yinding.

    1) XPL-HI NW LEDs and 10 degree optics.
    2) Driver with programmable levels and off removed from the pattern - KD driver
    3) Gopro style mount.
    4) Wired or wireless remote control.

  5. #5
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    Good to see you back at it, GJHS
    Here's the list of wishes I compiled from last time we had this discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by varider View Post
    At the bare minimum we should go for a very bright triple with lots of heatsinking.

    I'll read the thread again later today but if I recall correctly the most requested things were
    1) programmable driver
    2) different optics as a kit
    3) better mounts (gopro or cam-lever)
    4) solarstorm type of mode switch (can they do it?). The button on the Yinding can be hard to press
    5) possibly NW emitters or a choice emitters with high heat conduction mounting base.
    6) thick wiring to reduce resistive power loss
    7) removable wired remote
    8) relatively inexpensive ($40-$60 ?)

    There were also some ideas about pointing one of the leds downward to provide a near field effect.
    Who's manufacturing this light, is it Yinding?

    For those that don't remember, we also challenged the folks at ITUO to build us the type of light (LINK). They agreed and made a prototype which they sent to Skyraider59.
    http://forums.mtbr.com/lights-night-...t-1002379.html
    They are still working on their final version, but it was supposed to be released in the next few months.

    So this is perhaps the second manufacturer to take up our challenge.

    I should probably mention that there were a couple of people who were burned/cheated in their dealing with Gearbest with the Nitefighter orders. So Gearbest may have lost some good will there. They have been good to me however, so I would trust them going forward.

  6. #6
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    triple neutral emitter. Quality mount, no rubber bands. Wired remote, that can be unplugged (wireless would be ideal) quality top button. Optics changes easily. Drive it hard to 2800-3000lm! Price: $29.95 lighthead only. Add $5 for a Nitefighter bt21 case!
    I need another one!!

  7. #7
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    Ok a bit more info, this will not be built on any preexisting case, nor are there any plans, shapes or designs, so post your ideas and drawings.

    I would like to see a triple myself, maybe with a combo spot/flood setup like the Nitenumen. That light had an amazing beam pattern, best of both worlds in a small light. I think light head only and a strong focus on thermal transfer and cooling which is lacking in all Chinese lights.

    There is no info on who will build it, they only promised that it won't be a _____fire company. And as last time, the light head will be sent out to 2 or more testers before being built.

    Varider: Gearbest knows the problems of Nitefighter (now Revtech) all too well. I asked about them getting the new BT21S and its confirmed that Revtech will start production and build it for us. However Gearbest asked me to skip that project for now because of all the quality issues that Nitefighter sent out.

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    I really like the functions of the KD driver, even if the modulation could be better and the LEDs harder driven.

  9. #9
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    This is pretty much my list too.
    Programmable levels like KD, and I would like to see less PWM flicker at lower power levels.
    GoPro mount
    One narrow and one medium optic
    Neutral white
    Button on top is easier than on back. I don't care about remote.

    If I really had a fantasy list, I would like to see the ability to go up or down a level rather than having to go low-med-high-low.
    It would be nice to be able to go med-high-med while riding, and scroll down to low while in transition or non-biking use.
    My preference is the way lights like Glowworm and Mobydrv do it, with a short click to go up and a longer press to go down a level.



    Quote Originally Posted by kwarwick View Post
    Assuming we're talking about a helmet light, I think something like what a few of us ended up with by modding the Yinding.

    1) XPL-HI NW LEDs and 10 degree optics.
    2) Driver with programmable levels and off removed from the pattern - KD driver
    3) Gopro style mount.
    4) Wired or wireless remote control.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by GJHS View Post
    I think light head only and a strong focus on thermal transfer and cooling which is lacking in all Chinese lights.
    Yes, there has to be a thick wall behind the leds with only a small hole to pass the wires through. Not the led board resting on a small lip construction of the Solarstorm lights.

    So are Gearbest designing this light in-house? Someone needs to do some actual thermal engineering and not just throwing things together. That's the part that's always skipped in cheap Chinese light manufacturing.

  11. #11
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    Looks like we all have a bit different ideas of what works best for us.

    Personally I don't need mind blowing lumens on the lid but more prefer a spot and dual emitter. Maybe like 1000 lumens of spot that will have good throw.

    And most impt to me is very very small and maybe a 2 cell battery that can be attached to the back of the helmet so everything is on the helmet. And a good mount, GoPro, etc.

    MB

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ofroad'bent View Post
    If I really had a fantasy list, I would like to see the ability to go up or down a level rather than having to go low-med-high-low.
    It would be nice to be able to go med-high-med while riding, and scroll down to low while in transition or non-biking use.
    My preference is the way lights like Glowworm and Mobydrv do it, with a short click to go up and a longer press to go down a level.
    I also like very much how the TaskLED drivers work in what is called "Threemode". Basically you have 3 levels (low, medium, high)... it will start up from low and with each click go to medium and then high. From that point when you click it will toggle between high and medium... only if you click longer (called press I believe) then the light will go down to low and then one more press will turn the light off. I find this ideal for mountain biking where you really want to minimize the amount of time your hands are off the handlebar.

  13. #13
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    Nice to see you back in the game! I "pulled out" of it myself. Too many headaches.

    As for this build. Think the guys have covered it pretty well. Proper thermal path, enough surface area to be useful, remote, and not another dual emitter or simple round style light.

    I do have several reservations though being vender that's handling it with keeping some form of descent and consistent quality after the group buy projects I've purchased on BLF. And I've been "corrupted" by branded lights (and now making my own as I have time)

    Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk

  14. #14
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    Yep, 1+ on compact dual emitter with a nice spot for helmet.

    Quote Originally Posted by mb323323 View Post
    Looks like we all have a bit different ideas of what works best for us.

    Personally I don't need mind blowing lumens on the lid but more prefer a spot and dual emitter. Maybe like 1000 lumens of spot that will have good throw.

    And most impt to me is very very small and maybe a 2 cell battery that can be attached to the back of the helmet so everything is on the helmet. And a good mount, GoPro, etc.

    MB

  15. #15
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    Thing is we have a bunch of dual emitter lights already. Need something different in my opinion. All the add ons were talking already exist for barely above the price point this would be. Gemini duo, gloworm x2.

    But besides remote and programming, you guys are asking for a Yinding. Can't make them any smaller or lighter than that and still get 1000 lumens output.



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    Personally I vote for a triple, since I already have 4 or 5 cheap doubles. I thought the whole point was to build something that's way better than a Yinding.

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    Yep I'm with ya, triple. A double? Yawn....

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwarwick View Post
    Assuming we're talking about a helmet light, I think something like what a few of us ended up with by modding the Yinding.

    1) XPL-HI NW LEDs and 10 degree optics.
    2) Driver with programmable levels and off removed from the pattern - KD driver
    3) Gopro style mount.
    4) Wired or wireless remote control.
    ...^^^...what he said.. A triple of course. A wireless remote would be nice but I'll not push for that. User switchable optics a must. Definitely needs to be programmable ( similar to the Gemini's ). Anything that can be done to improve heat management would be a big plus.

    Of course if this turns out to be just a cheap Chinese lamp with typical stuff ( three steady modes and flash ) it might still be worth having if the LED's are Cree ( neutral white ...4700K ) and it uses typical optics that can be user switchable. I'm not going to be expecting Gloworm or ITUO quality ( although, that would be a nice surprise if it were to happen. ).

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirt Road View Post
    Yep I'm with ya, triple. A double? Yawn....
    Triples are hard because you either need a boost driver or multiple buck drivers.
    I want a wireless double that will pair one remote with two lights.

  20. #20
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    I'd like to see the nightfighter void filled, with something that addresses the Yinding/Gemini shortcomings.
    More heat sink, better software, best emitters and optics...
    I need more lights like a hole in the head, but my friends are always asking.
    1500 real lumens should be feasible in a double too, if not 2000 with monster heat sinking.

    Quote Originally Posted by tigris99 View Post
    Thing is we have a bunch of dual emitter lights already. Need something different in my opinion. All the add ons were talking already exist for barely above the price point this would be. Gemini duo, gloworm x2.

    But besides remote and programming, you guys are asking for a Yinding. Can't make them any smaller or lighter than that and still get 1000 lumens output.



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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ofroad'bent View Post
    I'd like to see the nightfighter void filled, with something that addresses the Yinding/Gemini shortcomings.
    More heat sink, better software, best emitters and optics...
    I need more lights like a hole in the head, but my friends are always asking.
    1500 real lumens should be feasible in a double too, if not 2000 with monster heat sinking.
    For my needs I tend to agree. I have high hopes that the soon to be released Ituo XP-2 will satisfy all the requirements you described. In fact my wiz20 would give you what you asked for with the exception of only producing approx. 1400 lumens which is probably a compromise to give it good runtime considering it is self contained. If it's anything like my Wiz20 the jump in quality would more than justify the fact that the XP-2 will cost more than your typical Chinese light. Potential is there.

    A triple seems to be what most on this thread want and what I hope they end up producing. I'm surprised little has been said about price range. I assume it will need to in the "budget range" to be a sales success for Gearbest. That being said I'm hoping more for a simple triple with good performance, heat management and reasonable quality as opposed to one with a bunch of features that ends up being of lesser quality and unreliable. I'd also like to see Gearbest persue an improved BT21s. With better/more consistent quality the BT21s would be by far the best inexpensive performance light and I'm sure they could sell a ton of them.
    Mole.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by znomit View Post
    Triples are hard because you either need a boost driver or multiple buck drivers.
    I want a wireless double that will pair one remote with two lights.
    Triples aren't hard at all:

    Boost driver is commonly used on existing triples. Nothing difficult about it.

    And I don't know anything about multiple buck drivers. Doesn't exist and those of us that mod flashlights have tripples that run on a single 18650. No boost driver. It's a standard buck driver no different than anything else. Instead 3 emitters ran in parallel. No different than running 1 emitter.

    So nothing about triples are difficult at all and they are done all the time just fine.


    As for lights on wireless remotes that allow you to run multiple lights off one remote already exist. Gemini, Xeccon, and others make them. I dont think were going to save much money on the cost of these lights being done that way versus just buying what already exists.

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  23. #23
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    Boost drivers are hard on batteries and give shorter than expected runtimes IME. As the battery voltage drops, the driver draws more current from the battery in an attempt to maintain output. The battery's ability to provide that increased current drops during the discharge of the battery. Often the battery protection circuit shuts off the discharge prematurely since the voltage sag of the battery under the high current demand goes below the low voltage threshold of the protection circuit.

    Parallel emitters often end up being under driven due to current limitations of the driver. A parallel configured triple XM-L2 can easily use 9A with good heatsinking. Not many 9A capable drivers out there, particularly in a compact size.
    GoPro adapters for bike lights http://www.pacifier.com/~kevinb/index.html

  24. #24
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    Good points but realistically no need to push emitters to 3A.

    The size of the head to deal with the heat kills any idea of a compact light. I have found that at 2A each, things are much easier to deal with. 6A drivers still are pushing limits for compact size.

    I'm personally not seeing any issues with a boost driver done right. The 2 lights I have that use them though the current draw does increase a bit once voltage drops enough, doesn't mess with runtime enough to really matter if using good cells.

    Cheap cells in either application are going to have issues. But my Panasonic cells have 0 issues running my XS. And my xs produces far more total lumens versus Watts drawn from pack than any dual emitter light I own. XS, yinding, bt21, Duo. XS is using over 500mA less current to match lumen output.

    I wasn't a fan of boost drivers either till I put my XS on my Fenix case with NCR18650GA cells. Made all my dual emitter lights look bad for how much of my pack was left after a ride. What would be max on X2, duo, etc is around 2.25A current draw. My XS does the 1500 lumens at 1.5-1.6A current draw. So I would run at 1500 all the time, go all out on the decents and after a 45min ride(I did turn down for longer climb, break at the top), only used about 1000mah from the ~3500mah I have.

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  25. #25
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    We had all this worked out a year ago, after discussing it for nearly a month. I'm not sure we need to rehash everything.
    http://forums.mtbr.com/lights-night-...ht-959005.html

    I don't get the sudden need for the dual led lights. Don't you guys already have enough of these? The refurbished glowwom x2 were on sale for around $60-$70 a couple of months ago. That didn't satisfy your needs?

    Let's just get this done while the iron is still hot. Just getting something that isn't complete garbage is going to be hard enough, nevermind our extensive list of wishes.
    Gearbest has a pretty short attention span, and their employees seem to rotate frequently leaving us back at square one.

  26. #26
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    **^^...Yep!..

    Eventually someone will remake the BT21, just a matter of time. The plans are out there. Someone just has to buy the rights to the product or just produce their own clone. If the BT21 is eventually reintroduced it should only have 3 steady modes that are programmable and include a GoPro mount.

    I'm looking for a cheap triple from Gearbest. I'm thinking a Yinding but with an extra emitter and a slightly larger overall size for better heat management. Six amp driver should be enough. Gopro mount would be a big plus. I'm getting tired of dealing with cheap O-ring mounts when it comes to heavier lamps.

    In the meantime I'm still waiting for ITUO to release a triple. If they do it will probably end up being one of their biggest sellers since there aren't many triples already being sold.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ofroad'bent View Post

    If I really had a fantasy list, I would like to see the ability to go up or down a level rather than having to go low-med-high-low.
    It would be nice to be able to go med-high-med while riding, and scroll down to low while in transition or non-biking use.
    My preference is the way lights like Glowworm and Mobydrv do it, with a short click to go up and a longer press to go down a level.
    I finally got round to writing a bit of code into one of the freely available ATTiny13 firmwares to do this and flashed it into a 2.1A Nanjg I had lying around. Put it into my single cell rechargeable commuter light and it works wonderfully. Also goes straight to high from off with a long press, but I'd have to dig in to find out how it does that. Also have some thermistors to enable overtemp response, but that and a on-and-flashing mom switch firmware are on the to do list.

    Still haven't gotten round to building that 2 up light I had planned about 3 years ago, too busy working on my tools!

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    A good simple triple is prolly a slam-dunk in the sales dept. No funky pyramids or bat wings! 3 across with a top button. I seriously wonder who Gearbest has in mind to mfg this light.....

  29. #29
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    So are there any NW or WW emitters out there now on 20 or 16mm stars with 90+CRI?

    Reason I ask, have recently converted entire house to LED and found the Hyperikon bulbs with high CRI really beat the completion to heck. As some of you might recall, I'd been temporarily repurposing some NW bike lamps as spot lighting in the kitchen and while the narrow beam patterns worked great for task lighting, have to admit that the color spectrum was pretty piss poor. Made wood surfaces look like cardboard and food unappetizing. But Hyperikon's 3000K and even better their 2700K (as well as Philips' 2700K, though the latter is only 85CRI) give beautiful light at high efficacy (and Philips is over 100 Lumens per Watt.) Am so spoiled now, won't consider buying another bike lamp until it's offered over 90CRI, and preferably 3000K. Sacrilege I know but even the cheapo Utilitech LED security lamps I have outside my house throw better light than any of my many NW bike lamps.

  30. #30
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    Your spoiled on CRI more than color temp. There are emitters that you'd like but output is rather low compared to NW and CW bins.

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    I would be up for a high CRI emitter, although it's not an absolute necessity for me.

    According to the data sheet make the cree xm-l2 in 70, 80,85, and 90 cri version.
    http://www.cree.com/~/media/Files/Cr.../XLampXML2.pdf

    There's a line in the data sheet (page 3) that typical neutral white CRI is 75 versus a CRI of 65 for cool white. I think this may contributing factor in why some people prefer a neutral white emitter over a cool white.

    The high CRI lights do sacrifice a lot in lumen output over a similar NW. For example, according to the chart.
    NW - U2 (XMLBWT-00-0000-000LU20E4) puts out 728 lumens at 2 amps. Compared to
    90 CRI - T2 (XMLBWT-00-0000-000UT20E7) puts out only 485 lumens.

    That's a big difference. I don't know how much the high CRI aspect of the emitter compensates for the reductions in lumen output.

    I think it would also be tough to get a budget manufacturer to put in the specific emitter we want, they are likely to just to swap in the cheapest available option.

    I think it was Yinding that put in a weird tint in their early NW lights and that created a huge rift between them and Gearbest, as Yinding didn't want to fix the problem. Gearbest ended up sucking up the cost of switching the boards to a better tint (instead of Yinding) and this killed off the last years attempt at an improved triple led light.

    For me the priority is just getting a light made.

    Maybe we could just swap out the emitter ourselves. Perhaps we can get them to make a light in which the emitters are mounted on stars instead of those one-piece boards.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do View Post
    **^^...Yep!..

    Eventually someone will remake the BT21, just a matter of time. The plans are out there. Someone just has to buy the rights to the product or just produce their own clone. If the BT21 is eventually reintroduced it should only have 3 steady modes that are programmable and include a GoPro mount.
    As mentioned, GB can get the BT21S made, already negotiated. Problem is Nitefighter/Revtech quality issues that keep that project risky to sellers who have to eat the costs. Once bitten, twice shy.

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    Well I suspect the high CRI emitters out there now in consumer LEDs are not Cree. Because their own line of bulbs are really behind the times (heavy, full of exposed heat sinking, low output, early failures) and don't get the best reviews. Hypericon's spot lights are all single emitter and while perhaps not quite as efficacious as their domed bulbs, are still pretty decent. They have a 93CRI 14W 2700K PAR38 which supposedly puts out 1200 Lumens, their otherwise identical 4000K "Daylight" throws 1260. And new improved models keep coming out. That's why I figure it is just a matter of time until high CRI emitters at or above 100 Lumens per Watt should become available on stars for bike lamps, though perhaps not from Cree. I can wait.

  34. #34
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    For the high CRI matter, the best way to get it and keep decent output is nichia 219c. 2A drive current is over 600 lumens. Don't remember how much though. 80+ Cree. I have some in a flashlight. Best CRI and tint I've got.

    The sacrificing of lumens for CRI isn't going to be offset on a gap that large. 1-2 bins is about the gap CRI can make up for in actual real world use. But NW emitters are usually at or no more than 1 bin below the highest output cool white bin. So less than 100 lumens difference.

    CRI isn't the only factor for cool white versus neutral white though. Cool white due to its overall tint reflects badly off every little thing in the air (and it's almost blinding in very moist air) where as neutral white takes a lot more lumens to create anywhere near the glare you get.

    Neutral down to warm white on the other hand the change isn't as significant, not even close. The CRI you can definitely see the difference but it doesn't make up for the steep lumens loss.

    Balance of the 2 is hard to achieve to say the least. Partially because each person is different, so their eyes and perception will be different. Then simply having or not having a strong hot spot changes the perception of the CRI. Strong hot spot, the higher the CRI needed to compensate. More wide spread and less intense the light, the less the CRI difference is noticed and lumens/tint takes over.

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  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by varider View Post
    I would be up for a high CRI emitter, although it's not an absolute necessity for me.

    According to the data sheet make the cree xm-l2 in 70, 80,85, and 90 cri version.
    http://www.cree.com/~/media/Files/Cr.../XLampXML2.pdf

    There's a line in the data sheet (page 3) that typical neutral white CRI is 75 versus a CRI of 65 for cool white. I think this may contributing factor in why some people prefer a neutral white emitter over a cool white.

    The high CRI lights do sacrifice a lot in lumen output over a similar NW....
    Yes, the problem with using "neutral white" LED's over cool white has always been finding the best compromise between output over CRI. Every time there is a change in bin ( T-6, U2, U3..etc. ) there will be ( or won't be ) an emitter with the desired CRI/tint. Not to mention that sometimes you really don't know what you're getting until you can actual see what it looks like with your own eyes.

    I wish I knew what CRI my eyes like the best or what CRI gave the best compromise when it came to output vs. tint. If I could figure that out it would make shopping for emitters so much easier. Once again though, the people selling the emitters don't always list CRI for the products that they sell.

    Anyway, in keeping with what you first said; I noticed right away that the neutral white emitters used by Gloworm in my refurb'd X2 are nowhere near as bright at the one I have using cool white. For me this is no problem but others might not like the loss in throw. Nevertheless, GW did their homework and chose the right neutral white tint. The Chinese on the other hand who might make us another cheap lamp aren't going to necessarily do that....although I will say that Gearbest got it right when they did the neutral white Solarstorms so there is hope.

  36. #36
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    Thing with tint is that like the X2, the lumen output is identical, so one is actually not brighter than the other. Cool white appears brighter because the eyes are sensitive to it, which is why you see less,not more. Plus the low CRI adds to the issue.

    Part of the reason cool white and high CRI don't exist is because they can't. The 2 don't work together because of the way our eyes are. Plus again, the human eye doesn't like blueish light. The cones for that color are towards the outside. So it severly hinders being able to see in the dark. Making it much more difficult to see anywhere the light is not pointed.

    CRI is only par of the equation, the actual color of the light produced is the other part and how the eye responds to it. Those that prefer cool white is either do to some form of eye damage or mentally "stuck" on it because it appears brighter.

    If you watch my review video on the nitecore light. It does a really good job of showing exactly how much more difficult it is to see clearly with cool white versus neutral white.

    Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk

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    Would any of you guys be up for designing one, or several, in house using off the shelf parts like those available at Mtn Electronics or Illumn? If we can do that, I'd be up for machining the prototypes for some of us to test, and then someone else can run production with it. I only have access to a 3 axis cnc mill right now, but am working on getting a 4 axis mill operational.

    I've been wanting to try something like this for a while, but with my focus on making chips these days, I don't have time to find some of the components, for example, the seal on the opening for the battery wire, or lighted switches and the drivers they'd work with. I'm hoping we can combine are strengths and get the light we want.

    All I know is that I want it to be bright, and if heat and weight is an issue, then I want to see about trying to transfer that heat into the handlebar or stem.

  38. #38
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    I have designs, I have the parts but no way I could be paid enough to give then to places like Gearbest and their suppliers.

    Only because I don't want to see my ideas turned into cheap Chinese crap.

    I wish I had a nice milling set up to do the machining, my way works but takes a lot of finishing work and many limitations.

    This would be where DIY just comes in. Only because WHY let these random companies that have no connection to Cycling make a bunch of money off all our work. No issues giving them ideas but no way I would hand over a project like that for them to turn into another cheap light.

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  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by tigris99 View Post
    I have designs, I have the parts but no way I could be paid enough to give then to places like Gearbest and their suppliers.

    Only because I don't want to see my ideas turned into cheap Chinese crap.
    +1 on this!

    Quite nice of leaftye to offer to machine prototype housing to suit a bunch of high end components. Some really cool lights could be built. Those designs and components would never fully make it into a "budget priced" Chinese light. They have to cut corners on construction details and use low quality components to hit low price points.
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    I'd suggested this at BLF (having been through the Yinding thing here)

    Get RMM [MtnElectronics] to build you the driver, with components up to spec — avoid the “some of them work fine” problem from having corners cut here and there on parts, production moved to cheaper suppliers midstream, and so on.

    Just take it for granted China is China and get what they do well and not the rest.

    Get some of the production made as a host — so people can get emitters and driver that will be higher reliability.

    [but, even better, get the folks who've offered here to do the bodywork too]

    Search on “temperature sensor” [at BLF] and consider some of the problems described implementing them so far — there are suggestions of components recently becoming cheap enough to incorporate that haven’t made it into production yet, somewhere in those discussions.

    If the light will overheat sitting still, as a good bike light probably should do:
    — make it shut down or shut off when it’s not moving
    — if it’s ramped down, let it ramp back up as you get moving again and move faster

  41. #41
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    A great idea to build a prototype! Im not sure about Gearbest keeping the mfg in line with original specs. but hey, ya never know.

  42. #42
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    RMM building a driver.....

    We're kind of already working on that, been testing the prototypes, going to be going in the heads I'm machining.

    Not designs I'm going to share though for a budget Chinese light, sorry.


    But they don't need any help with that over in China, the drivers and firmware already exist. For the price point you guys want the driver is still going to be cheap. The components needed to build at the quality RMM does bring the driver price way up.

    Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirt Road View Post
    .......Im not sure about Gearbest keeping the mfg in line with original specs. but hey, ya never know.
    So far, the Chinese light builders/sellers have not been able to do that. This forum is full of light reviews that started out with great reviews of the early production and then end with quality and/or delivery problems.
    GoPro adapters for bike lights http://www.pacifier.com/~kevinb/index.html

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vancbiker View Post
    So far, the Chinese light builders/sellers have not been able to do that. This forum is full of light reviews that started out with great reviews of the early production and then end with quality and/or delivery problems.
    To be fair we've even seen complete crap sent out for review too.

    I really just want a yinding with the KD10 UI and the option for XPG. Deeper heat fins is a bonus, bigger screws that don't strip when you look at them would be nice too I guess.

  45. #45
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    Why would you want xpg emitters, xpg is extremely outdated.

    Xp-l hi is better in every way and has the same beam pattern and throw as xpg/xpg2 except more efficient over 1A current and much higher output

    Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk

  46. #46
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    New nichia's 90+ cri. That mite work!

  47. #47
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    Output is lacking on that high of CRI. I'd good with it myself as I don't need ridiculous lumens too ride but too many people think lumens are what matters

    219c is really nice though. Good mid point of CRI vs output imo

    Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk

  48. #48
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    I can understand why some of you guys are concerned about chinese resellers taking all the hard work. That bugs me a bit too, but I've accepted that I'm not at a spot where I'm able to develop and produce my own light right now, so I'd rather contribute to an open source type project even though the risk of open source is that someone else will profit off it. Fwiw, there's nothing stopping one of you guys from getting it produced in the USA if you have enough money. Unfortunately I don't think I could afford that type of light unless I make it myself and don't value my time.

  49. #49
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    Not so much about someone making money off the effort, but taking something good and reducing it to a POS by cost cutting.
    GoPro adapters for bike lights http://www.pacifier.com/~kevinb/index.html

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    My personal experience is my Nitefighter bt21 won't get turbo when the temps drop like last freakin night. Luckily my Ituo is unfazed by such trivialities. I'm glad there's another player in the mid price point. Budget lights are fun but something inevitably gets fubared.

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by leaftye View Post
    Would any of you guys be up for designing one, or several, in house using off the shelf parts like those available at Mtn Electronics or Illumn? If we can do that, I'd be up for machining the prototypes for some of us to test, and then someone else can run production with it. I only have access to a 3 axis cnc mill right now, but am working on getting a 4 axis mill operational.
    As others have said, I would hate it if others profited from your/our hard work.

    By the time you are done making a prototype and testing it properly you are basically half way to creating your own light company. Some of the light companies get a substantial part of the manufacturing done in China. Imagine if you placed an big order for the machined parts and drivers and then you all you had to assemble and test the parts. You could turn $100 worth of parts into a $300 light no problem.

    I think that there is a chance that we could have a community designed light in the future. The thing that will make it possible will be inexpensive 3D printed metals. I made a rough estimate of the cost last year and it was over $100 for a very small lighthead. The 3D printing process for metals is more complicated than the typical plastic printers you see at Best Buy, hence it is more expensive. A lighthead of the size we need would probably be too expensive.

    Anyway these companies need to do their own work. I had faith that Yinding would be able to come up with a good triple, but they messed up their relationship with Gearbest. Solarstorm doesn't understand that there needs to be solid wall behind their led board. Ituo seems to get it but their lights are going to come in at a higher price point.

    I think that anything that's even half way decent is going to end up at the higher Gemini/Glowworm/Magicshine price point. Quality manufacturing, reliable parts and quality control are always going to cost more. There's just no way around it.

  52. #52
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    @leaftye thanks for the offer, very cool. Case design is top on my list, since most Chinese light do it so poorly. Very few cases have any real thermal transfer nor cooling built in.

    I know this project can only go so far on high end specs and keep the price in $50 buck range. I think we should aim for a great case design above all, so at least higher end components and upgrades can be added after if the user wanted. Not saying it will have garbage parts from the factory.

    We need to come up with a design with great cooling, thermal transfer, allows for easy swapping of optics and maybe a remote. Running through light designs, I found one that I liked a lot from Candlepowertech.
    Custom light people, the time is now!-tt3000_black.jpg

    I like the fins, simple design, easy to remove front cover, not to mention the led design. I'm not saying copy it exact, rather use it as a baseline. What do you guys think?

    What design ideas do you have?

  53. #53
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    not bad baseline for doing a simple triple emitter. I am partial to the rounded heads. Not ROUND like a flashlight, but like yinding, x2/xs, etc. Having fins in the direction of airflow is definitely a plus though. the normal way works but in direction of travel is just much more efficient.

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    I like it. Unique and functional. Heat will not be an issue. But if it doesn't get a top button, it should get a wired remote. Those back switches (bt40) are a pain.

  55. #55
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    That looks like some expensive machining to me.

    I do like the looks of the Yinding and actually like the looks of the Solarstorm triples. I may be only one. If the solarstorm had some fins on top it would probably have more than enough surface area to provide good cooling. It would still need a solid wall behind the leds though.

    Can something like this be cast instead of machined? That might the cheapest option.

  56. #56
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    Actually the machining really isn't any more expensive than making a yinding, besides the increased size and time to do the extra machining for the increased size. Making fins like that light is extremely simple.

    I actually don't mind the looks of the solarstorm x3 either. But your right, needs more surface area to handle 2k+ lumens. However tbh it isn't a gloworm xs but it handles the heat of 1900+ lumens without much issue for me (I have one I modded to use optics and machined a plate that presses in to give emitters a solid surface to mount to)

    Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk

  57. #57
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    This is the kind of stuff many of us did to stock Yindings-
    Driver change, Gopro mount with heatsink fins, optic change.
    I would have gone with XP-L Hi on copper too, especially if they made a drop-in board.
    Custom wish list is to have all these already in a kit or assembled light.


    Quote Originally Posted by tigris99 View Post
    Why would you want xpg emitters, xpg is extremely outdated.

    Xp-l hi is better in every way and has the same beam pattern and throw as xpg/xpg2 except more efficient over 1A current and much higher output

    Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk

  58. #58
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    Any of these lights you gave to be able to solder, can have anything "drop in" but putting xp-l hi in a yinding is pretty close to drop in.

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  59. #59
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    Whoa, I refrain from checking for new posts a few weeks and look what I miss! Glad to see this coming around again.

    I do really like my Nichia 219C's in my BT40S (modded to 2A per emitter). Very good color rendering. Still love my favorite 5B1 tint (in the XM-L2) for color rendering too.

    I too feel we should pursue a triple. I feel like I have enough doubles and there are many doubles out there. I like the idea of trying to combine flood & throw mixing optics or however.

    -Garry
    "My Bike Lights" Thread on BLF teardowns, measurements, and beamshots. Moving my photos, PM or post up if you can't see them.

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by tigris99 View Post
    Any of these lights you gave to be able to solder, can have anything "drop in" but putting xp-l hi in a yinding is pretty close to drop in.

    Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk
    Weren't there clearance issues and difficulty centering the LEDs on individual round copper boards? I'm thinking MTNElectronics could make a dogbone-shaped copper board with XPL-Hi already on that fits Yinding.

  61. #61
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    16mm noctigons fit perfectly fine. And ya centering takes a bit of attention. Still only took a few minutes to do it.

    Mtnelectronics isn't going to make a board like that for the 10 people that will actually pay for it (and know how to change in). Just won't be able to do it and it not be expensive in relation to the light.

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  62. #62
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    I'll second that the XP-L HI's into the Yinding is not hard at all; centering wasn't that bad. Need to use the XP-G to XM-L (2) centering adapters (Mtn Elec sells) and those make it pretty easy.

    -Garry

    (EDIT - Removed "need to reflow" as it was in error. My bad!)
    Last edited by garrybunk; 05-19-2016 at 09:24 AM.
    "My Bike Lights" Thread on BLF teardowns, measurements, and beamshots. Moving my photos, PM or post up if you can't see them.

  63. #63
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    Don't need to reflow anything, just buy xp-l hi on 16mm noctigons (Mtnelectronics) and 15 mins of work.

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  64. #64
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    Oh yeah, Duh! Not sure what I was thinking. Brain checked out a moment I guess. Think I even posted pics in the Yinding thread.

    -Garry
    "My Bike Lights" Thread on BLF teardowns, measurements, and beamshots. Moving my photos, PM or post up if you can't see them.

  65. #65
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    ya same here I think.

    Thats why im not too concerned what emitters are used here, as long as they make the inside similar to the yinding so we can fit 16mm mcbs in there if we want to change emitters.

    TBH, Ill probably buy one of these when they happen (help with testing samples if needed since i have the sphere and such) just to add to the collection. Plus been thinking of doing an ACTUAL AND REAL LIGHTS SHOOT OUT. Where there is an actual laid out "competition" (video) so this would be moved into it based on what we end up with in the end of this.

  66. #66
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    What about the knewbies like me? I ain't reflowing nothing cept a post ride Corona! Let's get some nichias and quality mcb's inside this tripple!

  67. #67
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    Nothing wrong with nichia except output will be a lot lower. Some of us would enjoy it but most want lumens. So too specialized is going to kill sales for GB and the manufacturer. Gotta keep it worth it to them.

    No need to reflow anything if you can or know someone that can use a soldering iron. Just change the mcpcbs and done.

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    One thing that I don't understand is this craze for gopro mounts. They build like 10000meters on the hight!!! I like the lupine/gloworm style mounts that is screwed into the side of the light much more.

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Appel View Post
    One thing that I don't understand is this craze for gopro mounts. They build like 10000meters on the hight!!! I like the lupine/gloworm style mounts that is screwed into the side of the light much more.
    The GoPro thing is more in contrast to the piddly tube-and-o-ring system many of the chinese lights come with. Just as tall and more dorky. There are some really nicely made gopro accessories, and a ton of choice.
    I showed a way to mount the light almost flush with a metal gopro connector.

    I agree, the side bolt Glowworm solution is nicer, and similar to what I do with my DIY lights.

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by tigris99 View Post
    Don't need to reflow anything, just buy xp-l hi on 16mm noctigons (Mtnelectronics) and 15 mins of work.

    Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk
    If we don't come up with a dream double here I'll pimp another Yinding with xp-l hi, custom optics and heat sink mount just for fun. Which xp-l hi is the current favourite- there are several on 16mm noctigons at mtnelectronics?

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by garrybunk View Post
    I'll second that the XP-L HI's into the Yinding is not hard at all. You do need to reflow (I did a YouTube video on Reflowing on the BT40s' quad board), but centering wasn't that bad. Need to use the XP-G to XM-L (2) centering adapters (Mtn Elec sells) and those make it pretty easy.

    -Garry
    I didn't think it was possible to reflow XPL onto a board designed for XML. Aren't die and pads different sizes on those two emitters?

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwarwick View Post
    I didn't think it was possible to reflow XPL onto a board designed for XML. Aren't die and pads different sizes on those two emitters?
    I was mistaken in my post above and after I corrected in post#64 I forgot to mention that you can't reflow XP emitters onto an XM-L board. You're right, the pads are different sizes. Sorry if I've confused anyone. I'll edit that post above too.

    -Garry
    "My Bike Lights" Thread on BLF teardowns, measurements, and beamshots. Moving my photos, PM or post up if you can't see them.

  73. #73
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    The only difference in the xp-l emitters is the bin (higher the letter/number the higher the output). And then the tint. So depends on what tint you want. 1A, 2C, 3C....which ever you want.

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  74. #74
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    I have three specs that I need clarification on.

    Output? How bright, LOTF?

    Desrcribe the programmable driver more, how you want it to behave.

    Connectors

  75. #75
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    Here is what I sent to Gearbest as a list to get a sample made.

    Case Design:
    1. A small triple LED light, with good cooling and thermal transfer. Deep fins around the case for cooling and a thick shelf to attach the LED plate to. An easy to remove front cover with strong screws and thick square threads on the screws to ensure the screws won’t strip or come loose.
    2. Case should easily accept optics of different degrees from spot to flood. Specifications to follow.
    3. A minimal amount of material should be removed from case to allow thermal transfer from the LEDS to the case for cooling and providing a solid backing for the LED plate.

    Custom light people, the time is now!-case-design.jpg

    Emitters:
    1. Neutral LED 4700K & Cool White
    2. Real Cree LEDs not copies
    3. User switchable optics, no reflectors.
    4. XPL-HI NW LEDs and 10 degree optics

    Programmable Driver:
    1. Thick gauge wire to reduce power loss.
    2. Little or no PWM flicker at lower power levels
    3. Short click to go up and a longer press to go down a level.
    4. Raised Button on top, easily pressed with gloves.

    Remote:
    1. Wired or Wireless (preferred), removable.

    Mount
    1. Gopro style mount or solid screw mount. No rubber band mount


    Please correct or add anything. GB hopes to have a sample next month for review. Keep in mind that they hope this light appeals to all bikers, not just mountain bikers.

    No one has a case design that they would like?
    Last edited by GJHS; 05-19-2016 at 10:10 PM.

  76. #76
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    I just added two things to the list:

    1. Waterproof with good slilicone seals on front cover

    2. Waterproof connectors

  77. #77
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    Yes, that's a good list.

    For the mount I would say gopro mount or a cam lever design such as
    Hope Universal Handlebar Mount | Chain Reaction Cycles
    Also the option for a regular rubber band mount? Do we want that?

    I didn't understand your picture at all.

    I would say put the button on the back so we can get more heat sink fins on top. On the driver, I don't want to cycle through off during the mode rotation. I don't know about the "hold to go down down" UI. It can't hurt though. I'm used to clicking through high to get to the lower levels. Is is better to have two button like the Magicshine 880?

  78. #78
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    Nice list. Run with it! I'd like to see 1800-2000lm otf. Case design? Stretch a bt21 clone out to a triple config. Simple and cost effective.

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by varider View Post
    I didn't understand your picture at all.
    Ok ok I'm no artist

    I sent GearBest these too
    Name:  0_b6ee2_92c395be_L.jpg
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    and this (Thanks to GarryBunk) to show the difference

    Custom light people, the time is now!-p1020038_zpsfe305e22.jpg

    Those, plus a good amount of explaining and they now understand.

  80. #80
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    User interface Light should be usable for commutters too, as I've understand GJHS (in order GB to sell more). If so, we need to include strobe somehow. We have two options:

    1. Hidden strobe
    2. Two group of modes

    In case of 1. we can simply copy user interface of KD2 driver and have it all (not the best for commuters, though, but can be modified). In case 2. we need to define modes for each gropup, how to switch between them, etc...
    Not very simple and hard to agree on all points.

    Anyway (my opinion) for MTB usage there should NOT be Off mode in the mode cycle in any way. While short/long press to change modes up/down could be nice you need two more signals. One for Off and one for programming mode, all in all three different long presses. Things starts to complicate. In tipical 3 mode cycles we are used to you are always only max. 2 press away from desired mode. This is simple and we are already used to. Long press means Off. And you still have plenty room to define how to enter strobe mode (two short presses for example - good for commuters and MTB while on the road).

    About mount. Don't forget a lot of people already use rubber band mount on the helmet and won't be willing to change it just for this light cause they can't use old ones any more. So keep in mind that rubber band should be an option too. At least to have possibility to mount it instead of Gopro style. And for commuters, they need quick release mount. Either Alu clamp or rubber band works for that. OK tripple light is more for bar usage than for helmet. Nevertheless just think of backward compatibility.

    The rest we already spoked a lot in the past and we more or less agree. Make it good heatsinked, 20AWG cable and modular (lenses, led PCBS, mounts, programable driver) and you are good. Remote is good add on for mtb, of course, but it will raise the cost pretty much I think.

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    I think a wired remote ought to be cheap enough to add (probably only a $1 to $2 of parts / fabrication for the manufacturer). Probably is best as ledoman says to only have "normal" forward mode changes and not try to add "long press to go backwards" as it will become more complicated with having strobe & programming modes as presses as well. Would be great to have though and might make the light standout from most others. Double-click to enter strobe should work. Long press to off, but continue holding for about 8 seconds to enter programming mode for programming level you last selected?

    -Garry
    "My Bike Lights" Thread on BLF teardowns, measurements, and beamshots. Moving my photos, PM or post up if you can't see them.

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    By the way, I see where there are more and more custom lights for Group Buys (at Banggood) where they are using drivers flashed with custom firmware created by BLF users (& perhaps other forums too). Example here & here & here.

    I'm just starting to flash my own drivers (using/modifying output levels of freely available firmware designed by others), but I am nowhere near capable of coding a custom firmware. We could perhaps get one of the BLF users to assist us with the firmware, or we could see if GB can get it right. (One nice thing about a BLF firmware would be that it would be based on an mcu that some of use could reprogram in the future should we decide to change it.)

    -Garry
    "My Bike Lights" Thread on BLF teardowns, measurements, and beamshots. Moving my photos, PM or post up if you can't see them.

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    I received word overnight from GearBest that builder said he will be able to do everything on the list and still keep it budget.

    Now for me to work with them to ensure that the quality is there. We should have a sample next month that will go out to at least two people besides myself for review and testing.

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    I'll signup to be a tester. I can't commit to do a lot (like a full-blown review), but I can do measurements and post some pics. Should be able to include beamshots. I can take lumen measurements in my DIY sphere, though I can't guarantee my numbers.

    -Garry
    "My Bike Lights" Thread on BLF teardowns, measurements, and beamshots. Moving my photos, PM or post up if you can't see them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by garrybunk View Post
    I'll signup to be a tester. I can't commit to do a lot (like a full-blown review), but I can do measurements and post some pics. Should be able to include beamshots. I can take lumen measurements in my DIY sphere, though I can't guarantee my numbers.

    -Garry
    Thank Garry. Quality checks, testing and taking this thing apart is what's needed. Someone like yourself who, knows lights, drivers, optics and the like.

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    I'd like to see mole on the list and Garybunk as testers. Looks like this is coming together nicely!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirt Road View Post
    I'd like to see mole on the list and Garybunk as testers. Looks like this is coming together nicely!
    Ya the senior guys will make the best testers, they have seen enough lights to know quality from a cheaply made light.

    Let me know who's interested. Some of us have been at this project for a while.

  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by GJHS View Post
    I received word overnight from GearBest that builder said he will be able to do everything on the list and still keep it budget.

    Now for me to work with them to ensure that the quality is there. We should have a sample next month that will go out to at least two people besides myself for review and testing.
    Nice to hear that this is really going to happen. I hope to see a photo of the actual proto-type as soon as it is available. Great work GJ,

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    That's great news GJHS!

    It should probably be a wired remote as the wireless stuff will add too much cost.

    I would like to nominate Cat-man-do and and tigris as testers also, in addition to Garry, if they want to do it.

  90. #90
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    I'm game. Give me a purpose to tweak with a light beyond just doing it for my own entertainment. ;P

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  91. #91
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    If it's a double, I'm game to both test and buy one.

    If you're going triple, it's more than I need and the Wiz XP2 is probably looking like my next light.

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    If it's a quad, u shud verify it off-road bent. A lot of folks r here, why not try it and report? You have something to add I'm sure!

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    Oh, I'll be glad to try anythingb and report back. Just unlikely to buy a triple or quad at this time.

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    + + +

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    a few questions being asked by GearBest:

    Will a triple be a light that appeals to most or just a few people? (Important so please comment) GB boss asking why a double?

    How Bright?

    Optic size that is easily found/swapped?

    Driver functions and UI

  96. #96
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    Triple of course, there's a ton of doubles already.

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    Man, we do not need any more doubles. First everyone bought the solarstorm x2, then they bought the yindings (and their bad clones) and then a few bought the Nitefighter BT21. Plus there was the very bad d99, and Kaidoman had their own double or two.

    We definitely need the triple, that put outs over 2000 real lumens. It's easier to drive three 3 leds to that brightness than a double. Plus it's a little bit bigger and therefore has more room for heat sinking. The heat sinking is the part that all the cheap triples leave out. They all end up cooking themselves to death because they aren't designed correctly.

    I can't speak about the optics. Someone should be able to tell how tall they are are. I think they are all about 19 mm tall. Don't quote me on that.

    As ledoman posted the UI should be something like
    low-medium-high and the next click goes back to low (not OFF). Hold the button for a few seconds to turn the light off (or use a separate switch). A blink mode would be hidden even further.

    It would be nice if the levels (low medium high) would be programmable. Even nicer would be to have multiple mode groups (one with three modes and another with two modes (race) for example) or being able to set the number of levels in the rotation (2,3, or 4).

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    If we are talking about UI with different groups (2 mode, 3 mode) and programable levels then I would suggest 3 and 4 mode groups rather than 2 and 3.

    The reason is simple. You can cover more wishies with 3 and 4 mode. Those who wants only two modes they just program 4 modes as Low, Hi, Low, Hi and they essentialy have 2 modes only. Long press in any mode should turn the light off. The only difference would be you have to program all 4 modes. But this you do very seldom or only at beginning. With this you have also covered the people who wants more modes.

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    me, im good with 2 main modes and a hidden low. But thats me. I only use 2 modes while riding, the low mode for when I stop for whatever reason. I have like a quick mode cycle back and forth based on trail section, but thats me. Some may like the longer list of options, but cycling through more modes for me would just get annoying lol. AKA Nightfighter lights. Great except dealing with 4 modes.

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    But as I said if you program 4 modes in the sequence Low, Hi, Low, Hi you always have only two modes to operate. You will never know there are 4 modes behind (except when program to change levels). That way you get more versalite driver appealing to more people. Othewise I agree 2 or 3 modes are sufficient for MTB use.

    Since GB wants to sell lights also to other audience, you know, more people, more wishies. This is what I wanted to point out. Of course we need programable levels in order to do that.

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    i vote triple 2200lm. Nw of course. A simple ui seems like less chance of messing up mfg?
    Low med hi turbo is not good. Low med high is better. Maybe a few strobe modes hidden to boost sales with the roadies? I'm with Garybunk on wired remote too. Should be a cheap feature to add on.

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    Optics

    Design the optics and silicone seal in a way that the user can swap optics so that the basic triple can serve both as a bar and a helmet light.
    As an example there is a choice of various collimators/lenses available on LEDDNA (and elsewhere), would be great if these could be fitted without modifications.
    Alternatively Gearbest could offer various optic options stock on their website if that proves to be economical.
    I'm also happy with low, medium and high levels without off in the programmeable sequence (long press = off).
    Goatman
    - It's not the destination that counts but how you get there -

  103. #103
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    Here's a link to the LEDDNA 10º optic we all like. According to LEDDNA it's 21mm wide x 12.5mm tall but that seems like it's with the white holder (which they could keep in use, it's just other lights we take the white holders off).

    I like Ledoman's idea of 2 mode groups, 4 modes & 3 modes (with the 4 mode having ability to setup ti mimmick a 2 mode - something I think is more useable since I hardly ever use low). If they won't do mode groups, than I'm not sure whether it should be a 3 mode or a 4 mode - I'm leaning toward 4.

    I still think in stock form the center LED should have a 10º optic for "throw" and the outer two have maybe the 25º optics to favor flood (maybe even a little wider, but definitely not 60º as that's way too wide). Users can modify optics after receiving the light if they wish, but at least in stock form it's setup for flood and throw (kinda universal as a selling point).

    Wired remote, simple to plug/unplug and not mandatory to use. 2A per LED may be tough (6A driver), but we should try for it. 2000 lumens max OTF is probably about the upper reach of what we can expect (due to the need for such a high current driver).

    Anyone interested in trying to push for an XHP50 based light (see output graphs here)? It would be more unique, but it is a 6V emitter so runtime would be less and it's probably better doing a double than a triple in XHP50. The XHP50 uses the same optics as the XM-L, but because it has 4 dies it's beam is not as uniform and smooth. Just a thought, but I think it's better suited for another day another custom light.

    -Garry
    "My Bike Lights" Thread on BLF teardowns, measurements, and beamshots. Moving my photos, PM or post up if you can't see them.

  104. #104
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    I checked the thread on blf. The requests there were kind of dumb tbh. Half of them I question if they even know how to ride a bicycle, much less actually do it.

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    Which thread? Oh, nevermind, I see the custom thread over there now; I didn't even post in the BLF thread, though it's kind of redundant if I'm posting here where there is more relevant discussion.

    -Garry
    "My Bike Lights" Thread on BLF teardowns, measurements, and beamshots. Moving my photos, PM or post up if you can't see them.

  106. #106
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    Xhp50 on xm-l2 20mm optics looks like poop. Needs at least 26mm imo

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  107. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by tigris99 View Post
    Xhp50 on xm-l2 20mm optics looks like poop. Needs at least 26mm imo
    I've not actually used XHP50's or XHP70's myself, though I have plans to revise my D.I.Y. lawnmower headlights to XHP50's (due to working with XM-L2 optics). I was going to test different optics, including 26mm ones, but don't count on that anytime soon (this mod has been ongoing for over 4 years - just don't get much time to mess with it).

    With a dual emitter XHP50 setup we could probably get over 3,000 lumens driven at 2.0A each, or 4,500 lumens at 3.0A each. Not sure how realistic it is driving those emitters that hard for any length of time in a small light body, but I do hear they run cooler than MT-G2 emitters.

    -Garry
    "My Bike Lights" Thread on BLF teardowns, measurements, and beamshots. Moving my photos, PM or post up if you can't see them.

  108. #108
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    xhp50 is the equivalent of 4 xp-g2. So figure the heat based off that. Going to be more than 2 XM-L2 driven at the same current.

    XHP50 Light would be cool but people will be expecting an helmet light as most dont have a clue what the differences are or whats needed for a light with throw. And going into territory the places this will be dealing with have NO CLUE about. They cant do anything original, only copy existing.

  109. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by ledoman View Post
    The reason is simple. You can cover more wishies with 3 and 4 mode. Those who wants only two modes they just program 4 modes as Low, Hi, Low, Hi and they essentialy have 2 modes only. Long press in any mode should turn the light off. The only difference would be you have to program all 4 modes. But this you do very seldom or only at beginning. With this you have also covered the people who wants more modes.
    That's a great idea, I would have never thought of that.

    I could see someone wanting a fourth mode (extra high or turbo) for a light that puts out over 2000 lumens. Most of the time would be spent in mode 2 (medium) and mode 3 (high) and then kick it into mode 4 for the really fast sections.

    With four modes it's almost better to have two buttons, one to go down in level and one to go up. I have that cheap light with 4 xpg and that's how it's set up. You can't click from the highest mode (4) to the lowest mode by clicking the up button, you have to click the down button three times.

    One thing with having four modes is that I was constantly forgetting which mode I was in. So if this same light had only one button and you had to click through mode 4 to get back to 1, then I would be constantly clicking myself to death trying to get the mode that I wanted. I could see that being a very frustrating experience.

    But with a three mode light I don't lose my place as much and one button is fine.

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    I say we push for two buttons - mode level up and mode level down. This could also help with programming & strobe modes. Press & hold one button enters hidden strobe, single click from strobe goes to a hidden "low" mode (essentially entering a second mode group); press & hold other button for programming mode.

    -Garry
    "My Bike Lights" Thread on BLF teardowns, measurements, and beamshots. Moving my photos, PM or post up if you can't see them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by garrybunk View Post
    I say we push for two buttons - mode level up and mode level down. This could also help with programming & strobe modes. Press & hold one button enters hidden strobe, single click from strobe goes to a hidden "low" mode (essentially entering a second mode group); press & hold other button for programming mode.

    -Garry

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    Two button is good as long as it's on the top. Maybe a 2 button remote? I hate to see the "budget" shot to heck! There's too many well priced good lights without making another. I say simple and reliable. But with a great beam pattern like an xs gloworm.

  113. #113
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    If 2 button is prohibitive, 1 button can achieve the same thing - quick click for up, longer press for down. TaskLED and MobyDrv do this.

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    Basically I should stfu and see where this triple, top button, 2200 otf goes. There's a lot of smart folks here and Tig mole GB ledoman cat man do etc etc and the fearless leader kno what can be accomplished with the new light! I'm pumped cause I need another light like I need another bike.... And I want several!

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    I would rather have the button/buttons on the back of the light and heat sink fins on the top of the light where they are the most effective.

  116. #116
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    Top button truely won't hurt anything in this case design. Surface area is surface area due to the thermal conductivity of aluminum the small percentage lost for a top button on the top of the light isnt going to negatively effect performance. Still the wall behind the emitter transfering heat to the outer case and then spread around from there.

    The only way to improve that is the bt21 design. Fins directly behind the emitter wall. Top button or back button, performance will remain basically the same. At VERY Worst We'd see is a few seconds less before thermal step down in extreme temps and low speed airflow. Basically Mole at walking speed on one of his 100deg nights leaving the light on high. The rest of us, never notice it.

    No airflow the performance difference would literally be only detected on test equipment.

    And I have production proof of this sitting in front of me running ATM

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    I want big fins on the top, half an inch tall. All the way from the front of the light to the back. Fu$% it. It's much easier to manufacture that without sticking the button on top also, and wind can easily flow throw the heat fins. I don't want another light that supposed to be cheap but ends up being over $100 for the lighthead because we make it too complicated.

    I want a $35-$50 lighthead that won't cook itself to death in three months.

    The solarstorm was the ideal cheap build expect that there was no solid wall behind the emitter. Plus the driver wasn't in direct contact with the same board the leds were mounted on. It was mounted on the rear wall. I think that separation is critical in not roasting the driver. It's also been in production for two years.

    The BT21, the supposedly better light, is no longer in production. It was either too expensive to produce, or had a high failure rate. If they were making a huge profit then they wouldn't have stopped production.

    I want something that's cheap, but I want something that they guy can produce easily and make a ton of profit from. Something that's sustainable. That way we can a large influence on the design and the light will still be made six months from now.

  118. #118
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    Just FYI, a cheap light head has a good chance of cooking itself. It's not a heat problem with the head. Though it doesn't help, it's the electronics used. Low grade, can't take the heat and shocks of bouncing around on a bike.

    As for a light with huge fins, count me out of that, no way.

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    I was exaggerating a little bit.

  120. #120
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    Ok lol. Me I don't even care about a button on the light head if I have a remote. I modded my Chinese light to have remotes cause not having them in annoying.

    For me, I have no problems paying for good lights now or just make my own (when I have time). Loving Ituo right now cause only upgrade I'd like to see is a wireless remote system that works like Gemini lights remotes. Perfect syncing so I can control both lights at the same time.
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  121. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by varider View Post

    With four modes it's almost better to have two buttons, one to go down in level and one to go up. I have that cheap light with 4 xpg and that's how it's set up. You can't click from the highest mode (4) to the lowest mode by clicking the up button, you have to click the down button three times.

    One thing with having four modes is that I was constantly forgetting which mode I was in. So if this same light had only one button and you had to click through mode 4 to get back to 1, then I would be constantly clicking myself to death trying to get the mode that I wanted. I could see that being a very frustrating experience.

    But with a three mode light I don't lose my place as much and one button is fine.
    What Ledoman said makes a lot of sense and what you are saying makes a lot of sense and yes at times we forget what mode we are in. When I was using the BT40S ( 4-modes/up/down switch ) I regularly forgot what mode I was in. When you forget with a 4-mode up/down switch and don't have a remote it can be frustrating. While the same is true with a 3-mode UI ultilizing a circular UI, having one less mode to click through is less annoying than figuring out to switch up or down if you don't know which mode you are in.

    I do like Ledoman's idea though about having a 4-mode set-up as two modes. I never thought of that before. Therefore perhaps we need to consider the possibility that we might be able to get both 4 and 3 modes in one package. If the lamp is going to be programmable I can't see why there can't be an option on the UI that includes a menu option to be able to switch from 3 ( circular ) to 4 ( up/down ) mode and then just go with a two button remote. In 3 ( circular ) mode the extra button would just be the same as the other.

    Now as to forgetting what mode you are in; at times this is frustrating as I said before. This problem could be virtually eliminated though if it were possible to include a series of micro leds ( colors? ) on the remote ( or the lamp head ). I would prefer them being on the remote though because sometimes the lamp head is not visible to the rider depending on how it is mounted. Real important that they not be too bright or too big. I don't want something looking like a Magicshine remote. Anyway three micro leds would do the trick. No led for low, yellow for #2, blue for #3, red for #4. For 3 mode menu you would just use yellow and blue. If you're not color blind this could work.

    ( edit: rethink; Ledo's idea of 4 mode programmed as 2 is really best if the UI is circular ( L-H-L-H-L-H..etc ). If the UI was up/down you might forget when you are at the 1st or last mode. ) I vote circular if it comes down to a choice. ) Now if there are micro-led indicators ...Meh...I could handle up/down as the UI.
    Last edited by Cat-man-do; 05-28-2016 at 02:40 PM.

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    Commenting on UI, the only one I dislike is the gloworm x2/xs. I am used to it as I'm what my lbs calls an adopter... bt40 ok bt21 better Ituo wiz20 best.

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    If we had a UI with two mode groups (3 mode and 4 mode) and a circular mode rotation with one button, I would probably just stick with with the 3-mode group to avoid confusing myself. But I'm fine with either a two button for level change or just one.

    I do like the idea of an indicator. I do, however, associate the battery level with different colors leds. We could also use those small rear facing leds like the solarstorm X2 has to indicate what level you are in. In addition there would be an indicator for the battery level.

    I have a Magishine light with the remote. I would also like something smaller than that also. It also has the circuitry to indicate the battery level. This is too complicated in my opinion. I want the remote to be as dumb as possible. This makes it cheap to replace and opens up the possibility of being able to make your own.

    The thing with the UI is that's just a program running on a microchip. It's easily programmable with the right tools. It would be nice if we could do it ourselves. Then we could just share the programs here and you could install whatever you wanted. The guys on BLF seems to have this figured out, I briefly looked through the thread where they were doing this.

    The one thing we really need to avoid is the double click to enter programming. That's just ridiculous. Even if we have just one button to change levels, it might be helpful to have second micro sized button on the light head to assist with the programming and mode group selection. You could also use it to turn the light on and off and perhaps to enter a flashing mode (or flashing mode group) or a moon-mode.

    I just wonder how much of this the builder can actually accomplish, I hope we aren't reaching too high. We probably need one or two iterations with prototypes before we get all this right.

  124. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by varider View Post
    If we had a UI with two mode groups (3 mode and 4 mode) and a circular mode rotation with one button, I would probably just stick with with the 3-mode group to avoid confusing myself. But I'm fine with either a two button for level change or just one.

    I do like the idea of an indicator. I do, however, associate the battery level with different colors leds. We could also use those small rear facing leds like the solarstorm X2 has to indicate what level you are in. In addition there would be an indicator for the battery level.....


    .....The one thing we really need to avoid is the double click to enter programming. That's just ridiculous. Even if we have just one button to change levels, it might be helpful to have second micro sized button on the light head to assist with the programming and mode group selection. You could also use it to turn the light on and off and perhaps to enter a flashing mode (or flashing mode group) or a moon-mode.

    I just wonder how much of this the builder can actually accomplish, I hope we aren't reaching too high. We probably need one or two iterations with prototypes before we get all this right.
    I've thought over the options again and after thinking this through a bit more I've come to the conclusion that a circular ( one button ) remote is likely the better way to go. My reasoning behind this is because I feel that if there are two buttons ( very close together ), there is going to be a very good chance that when you start trying to change modes ( when the bike is moving ) you might indeed accidentally hit the wrong button. It's hard enough to remember where the remote is mounted when you start stretching your thumb out with just one button. At times I'm lucky if I hit it once ( GW remote ) when going over rough terrain. Thankfully I currently don't have to get lucky with two buttons right next to each other. While the Gemini remote does have two buttons, only one button changes modes. Since I only have to really use just one I can position the remote so I don't hit the other button by accident ( which if I did wouldn't change modes anyway ).

    The only way I see a two button ( up/down ) remote is going to work is if the two buttons themselves have mini led indicators built in so you can see the buttons. Forget what I said about indicators for the modes, seeing the buttons themselves would take priority. A four up/down I could get used to but only if the remote is lit with the mini leds I mentioned before. A single button 3 or 4-circular doesn't need to be lit.

    The mini leds I'm talking about are the really small ones. Where I work we use these wireless hand held devices that have some really small buttons on it. Button size is about 3mm. Some of those buttons have a really small led inside to indicate function mode. That's the size I'm talking about. I don't want something that is too bright. Perhaps something that is "back-lit" would be another option for up/down. Anyway, up/down sounds nice but if you can't see the remote chances are you will hit the wrong button from time to time.

    Yep, Gloworm screwed up with the "double-click-enter-program mode" problem. On almost every ride I will enter program mode on my X2 at least once and once is enough to piss you off since you need to stop to fix it. It's kinda like hitting the wrong button on your shifter only in this case "it's not your fault". If we go 4-mode ( two buttons ) once again the peeps will be fussing when they start hitting the wrong button.

  125. #125
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    Bike computers etc have a small reset button you push with a paperclip. Maybe something like that to program?
    Mobydrv needed something like 7 presses to enter program mode.

  126. #126
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    I do find double click for programming works fine EXCEPT IN GLOWORM LIGHTS. The problem is that the timing of the clicks is too far apart in the firmware. Which is what makes it a nightmare as the spacing is that of an attempt to rapidly cycle modes.

    Try doing that with Ituo lights,. Double click for programming but good luck activating it. It's a VERY RAPID double click needed to do it. I have enough trouble trying to hit the button that fast while intentionally trying to do it. Forget even trying to do it while its on my helmet or bars. On the bike it's practically impossible to hit the button that fast while riding unless your The Flash lol.

    It's not the double click to programming mode that's the problem, but the only common reference is Gloworm, who seriously screwed it up. That function works just as good as anything else if the guy programming the firmware has a clue about programming portable lights.

    Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk

  127. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by tigris99 View Post
    I do find double click for programming works fine EXCEPT IN GLOWORM LIGHTS. The problem is that the timing of the clicks is too far apart in the firmware. Which is what makes it a nightmare as the spacing is that of an attempt to rapidly cycle modes.

    Try doing that with Ituo lights,. Double click for programming but good luck activating it. It's a VERY RAPID double click needed to do it. I have enough trouble trying to hit the button that fast while intentionally trying to do it. Forget even trying to do it while its on my helmet or bars. On the bike it's practically impossible to hit the button that fast while riding unless your The Flash lol.

    It's not the double click to programming mode that's the problem, but the only common reference is Gloworm, who seriously screwed it up. That function works just as good as anything else if the guy programming the firmware has a clue about programming portable lights.

    Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk
    Gloworm should switch to a "rapid 5" for programming. Should only require a minor revision of the firmware. Very unlikely that I would do 5 rapid button presses while riding. If ITUO has "two rapid" for programming but is hard to activate I would still think that there is the possibility of activating the programming mode by accident. Kinda depends on the person and how fast their fingers are. I've seen people with some really fast *digital reflexes. ( *A guy I work with can type out a paragraph before I can type out a sentence. Simply amazing to watch ). Glad to hear though that you aren't having any problems with the ITUO lamps.

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    Good job!

    It's a deliberate act to enter prog on Ituo. Gloworm is an every ride occurrence. I'd assume skip the prog and get sensibly spaced modes with hidden flash/strobe for on road use. We all have dream builds. Gearbest needs to sell these as varider said. Without the huge fins...

  129. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirt Road View Post
    It's a deliberate act to enter prog on Ituo. Gloworm is an every ride occurrence.
    Gloworm just need to lock out programming 60s after turn on. Otherwise its a good system. They could add more special modes and the low would be better at 1% rather than 10%.
    Most of all... Mode steps need to be logarithmic.

  130. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ofroad'bent View Post
    Bike computers etc have a small reset button you push with a paperclip. Maybe something like that to program?
    Mobydrv needed something like 7 presses to enter program mode.
    I was thinking of something more substantial but still small. I always think that I'm going to break those reset buttons.

    Cat, can you easily take a picture of the types of button you are talking about?

  131. #131
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    Most lights have a reset command built into the firmware. Usually a long press from off or a series of clicks from off for a master reset.

    As for this remote thing, I'm trying to figure out the demand for all this fancy stuff. Dual buttons for up and down is good, but illuminated and all that??? If the buttons are bigger it's a quick matter of feel. Muscle memory will take over for button location before the first ride is over. Doesn't matter the style of remote button I use, put it in the same place every time and that's all I need.

    I guess though I'm on the younger half of this group and don't like fancy . Just gotta work, be able to feel it through my soft shell gloves and I'm good.

    Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk

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    As much as I did not take to the mj906 I briefly had, the wireless remote was quite excellent and never acted up for the week I had the light. I thought it was up/down but the remote controlled the tail light with the small button....

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    Backlit buttons are really, really bad for a bar light. Even a really small amount of light in the wrong direction (up in your face) will damage the dark vision. It is like putting the light on MID even if it is on HIGH. It is easy to test. Just hold the hand over any backlit button or similar and you will notice the difference directly.
    So, backlit buttons are bad and probably more expensive. Same goes for battery indication leds. They can go on the side or bottom of the light.
    This is also the reason why a small "cap" is good. Specially when going steep uphill some lights tends to spill light up in your face.
    Last edited by Appel; 05-31-2016 at 02:09 AM.

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    By "cap" I guess you mean a "hood" like the HD-016 uses. Good idea; add that to the specs listing.

    I agree with tig on the remote. I don't want lights on the remote. A well designed remote should be easy enough to operate.

    -Garry
    "My Bike Lights" Thread on BLF teardowns, measurements, and beamshots. Moving my photos, PM or post up if you can't see them.

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    Forgive the lack of posts on my side, it's been busy here with a lot of behind the scenes stuff. I have seen and been talking about the design to get it just right, so this is going to happen.

    Thanks for all the feedback, UI is next. I'm trying to introduce a few cool ideas while still keeping it simple and functional. Gearbest is working to keep it quality and functional, adding a few very nice touches to show that they are listening. As you know the challenge comes in making it for all types of riders.

    Keep the input coming. I have still have a question about the optics and ensuring that we use an easy to find optic size. GB has ensured they will be easily swapped and I am making sure they can be swapped more than once.

    Soon it will be time to add a tester to the conversation and then when the prototypes are built send the third to another tester. Of course confidentiality is important.

  136. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Appel View Post
    Backlit buttons are really, really bad for a bar light. Even a really small amount of light in the wrong direction (up in your face) will damage the dark vision. It is like putting the light on MID even if it is on HIGH. It is easy to test. Just hold the hand over any backlit button or similar and you will notice the difference directly.
    So, backlit buttons are bad and probably more expensive. Same goes for battery indication leds. They can go on the side or bottom of the light.
    This is also the reason why a small "cap" is good. Specially when going steep uphill some lights tends to spill light up in your face.
    About the back-lit buttons, yes I agree with you. Done wrong an excess about of light coming off the bars into your face is a big negative. Almost every lamp I own ( except for the Gloworm's ) have battery indicators that are too damn bright. This is true even for the usual small indicators used on the Solarstorms. Whenever I use one of those lamps I almost always use some black electrical tape to cover the indicators. I drive vehicles at work that I have to cover the center dashboard video/display panel because the damn things can't be dimmed ( as far as I know ). I can dim the basic dashboard but not that damn panel.

    Of course the idea I had for remote indicators was that, "It be done right". Just a minute amount of light. My home computer screen has a very small green indicator, maybe just 1mm wide. It's yellow when in sleep mode and green when on. It's so small/dim you almost forget it's there.

    Anyway, if it couldn't be done right then it would be best "not to have them". Believe me, if it were done right, it would make having an up/down remote much more usable. Personally though, I'm good with just the single button with circular UI.

  137. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by znomit View Post
    Gloworm just need to lock out programming 60s after turn on. Otherwise its a good system. They could add more special modes and the low would be better at 1% rather than 10%.
    Most of all... Mode steps need to be logarithmic.
    I agree with all that you wrote. It's an excellent idea to lock out the programming mode a minute after turning on.

    Tim

  138. #138
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    Not to rain on anyone's parade but:

    Reality check here ppl. The more options that try to get crammed into this light, the far more expensive it's going to become. WE'RE TALKING BASICALLY A CHEAP CHINESE LIGHT CUSTOM MADE. So gotta sacrifice some things if you want it cheap or to last very long.

    Everyone wants all this stuff on a $50 or less light head. At that point it'll be so cheaply made it won't survive a season. This is why quality light heads get far more expensive. The costs of making something reliable with the desired features.

    A lot of cool ideas for stuff Wed like to see, but gotta come back to reality if you want it cheap.

    A 3 emitter Yinding (with a bit more surface area to the head, aka deeper fin machining), programmable driver (which already exists for a dual emitter, the KD2) AND A basic wireless remote with a button big enough to feel through gloves. That can be done at the price point we want. Even the firmware program modifications are difficult cause most these cheap light companies don't have an actual decent engineer. So adding/changing the firmware is going to add to costs.

    Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk

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    Are we going to see rubber band mounting? Not a deal breaker specially with a wireless remote! But I'd like a good mounting system.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirt Road View Post
    Are we going to see rubber band mounting? Not a deal breaker specially with a wireless remote! But I'd like a good mounting system.
    We asked for a gopro adapter option (or a cam-style mount) as well as the regular rubber band mount.

  141. #141
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    Ok Guys, here's an update. The design is almost finalized and it will be a small triple with a good focus on heat dissipation. Right now we are working on the case design primarily and a case sample will be sent out to me and one other tester soon (Garry Bunk, Varider, Tigris, OffRoadbent?) Hit me up on PM and I will let GB choose. They are, of course, worried about someone leaking their ideas to other companies.

    We have been working hard to keep the quality high while keeping the price around $50, so wireless remotes are out, though the rest of our list is happening so far. Oh and it will definitely have a GoPro adapter. We are on a one button design with a lighted ring around it though that could change if they adopt my trick idea to make it work for all genres of riding. As i said at this point basic design, how it will look has been battling with making sure its super functional. So far they are adopting change and listening while still keeping it good to look at. There will be no hidden surprises since they are allowing us to see the samples before final build.

    UI, Driver and Optics are next. What I need from you now, is what optics would you like to see. Be specific, including links so I can forward them to GB. I was thinking the center optic be spot with flood optics on the sides. Share your ideas, please.

    Sorry I haven't been on here a lot, except to read, I've been talking with GearBest almost daily to ensure all is as it should be. Nefertari is really working hard to make this perfect even though this isn't her department anymore A big thanks to her for pushing to get this built. GearBest set up a few deals and coupons for the forum while we wait, including the Yinding Sale and a sweet deal on the Garmin Edge 520 GPS bike computer. Suggestions welcome

  142. #142
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    Sounds great!

    What do you want to know about the UI? Or is it more about just picking the final design? How hard is it for them to make it programmable, the user being able to program the light levels? Is that a huge increase in cost? That's the most requested feature.

    I haven't played around with the optics on my lights too much, put I see the others mentioning the ones from leddna.

    As far as what should come with the light one spot and two wide would be fine with me. Of course they come in degrees such as 5 degree, 10 degree, etc. So one 5 degree and two 10's. I'm not sure though.

    As far as the driver goes we want something that does 2-2.5 amps per led. Right? We want a driver that stays stable as the light gets hot. No weird things like the turbo lag on the BT21.

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    I like the KD driver functions. A driver like that but with less flickerering on low currents and better battery management would be perfect!

  144. #144
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    What are you referring to for battery management? Really no such thing with a driver besides a simple indicator telling you when battery is getting low.

    The flickering is PWM, and ya KD drivers suck for that. Didnt even think about that one.

    Not totally obsurb, low frequency pwm.

    Varider, the narrowest beam pattern you can get in smaller optics like we're used to is 10deg. Something like 1 10 and 2 20deg optics I guess would be ok. As long as I can fit my own optics to sort out my personal beam pattern for a triple.

    Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk

  145. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by tigris99 View Post
    What are you referring to for battery management? Really no such thing with a driver besides a simple indicator telling you when battery is getting low.
    Sorry if I use the wrong terms (my english is not the best). What I meant was that I experienced the batteries to last shorter time after I switched the driver in my Yinding to the KD driver (and I did not notice a remarkabel increase of light output). But I have no test data that supports this, it is just my subjective feeling.

    But I do like the KD UI and I don't like the low frequency pwm.

  146. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Appel View Post
    I like the KD driver functions. A driver like that but with less flickerering on low currents and better battery management would be perfect!
    Agreed! The pwm is most noticable on the lower settigns. I use the light for trail running and skiing as well as biking, so I use it at various power settings more than most.

  147. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by tigris99 View Post
    Varider, the narrowest beam pattern you can get in smaller optics like we're used to is 10deg. Something like 1 10 and 2 20deg optics I guess would be ok. As long as I can fit my own optics to sort out my personal beam pattern for a triple.

    Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk
    I think he is asking what are favorite brand of optics is. Are the leddna the best ones or is it carlco? The manufacturer needs the size of the optics so that he can get the fit right.

  148. #148
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    Go with the leddna optics that we've been recommending (ones with white holders) - here is a link to the 10degree one. These are the easiest to find to purchase for us to replace ourselves. As far as recommended combinations of optics I'm not sure. Wish I had a triple optic light (& time) to run some tests and take some beamshots. Wonder what would happen if we put two 10º's on the outside with a floodier (25º?) on the inside? I know we're kind of shooting for a universal combination light (i.e. suitable for bar or helmet), but I think we should favor throw. Again though, I have nothing to experiment with right now to see how this would turn out.

    -Garry
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  149. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by varider View Post
    ....Are the leddna the best ones or is it carlco?
    Everything I've built with Carclo optics kind of sucked. Even their tightest spec still ends up a wide flood. LEDDNA are really good as far as optics go.
    GoPro adapters for bike lights http://www.pacifier.com/~kevinb/index.html

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    Ok, so no carclo optics then.

    On the leddna optics do you need the holder, or can you use the optics without it? Is there a slight difference in height?

    Is there anyone making a 5 degree optic that is actually narrower than the 10 degree leddna? I remember reading that you need a tall reflector to get that narrow, or perhaps an aspheric lens setup.

  151. #151
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    OPTICS: The current Leddna white sleeved optics work very well for very little cost so they get my vote. Using them also would provide many optic options allowing users to customize the beam pattern to best suit a wide variety of usage needs. 10° spots would be a good place to start but I suggest sending some wider options to the testers with the lights to better show the range of beam patterns the light can provide. It would be nice to get some extra optics with the light but at the very least Gearbest needs to have optional optics in stock to be purchased with the light.

    UI: Mode button on the top please. Every light I've owned that was configured this way was a more pleasant/easier to use experience. Easier to access bar or helmet and more accurate mode changes too. Ease of use trumps any thermal advantage a back mounted button may have since it's easy to put a Vancbiker heat-sink mount on but an ackward to use mode button your stuck with. A wired remote would make the button position less critical though. If affordable a programmable mode driver would also be a big plus.
    Mole

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    Great to see this light progressing! I recently changed optics in one of my lights and it's pretty awesome stuff to get the beam pattern dialed in to my preferences. I'd say 2 spot 1 flood in the middle. I'm good with a simple UI. Wired remote??

  153. #153
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    Most all the lights I've seen using the LEDDNA optics do not use the white holders. Using the holders should help more light cone out through the optic though.

    -Garry
    "My Bike Lights" Thread on BLF teardowns, measurements, and beamshots. Moving my photos, PM or post up if you can't see them.

  154. #154
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    LEDDNA lenses

    Here is a link for 15,45 and 60 degree LEDDNA lenses, without the white cupped holders:

    http://http://www.leddna.com/15-45-6...-xml-xm-l-led/
    Goatman
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  155. #155
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    The guys meant those:

    10 Degree 21mm Reflector Collimator LED Lens For Cree XML XM-L LED - LEDDNA
    25 Degree 21mm Reflector Collimator LED Lens For Cree XML XM-L LED - LEDDNA
    60 Degree 21mm Reflector Collimator LED Lens For Cree XML XM-L LED - LEDDNA

    10 and 25 degrees are most usable. To get more narrow beam we might use XP-L HI leds. With that led and 10 degree optics (measured with XM-L) you should get about 7 degrees.

    So with different leds and those LED-DNA optics anyone should get his perfect combination.

  156. #156
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    25 deg isnt much different than the 10 deg, the 25 deg optic seems to have a bit more spill but that's about it. I use the 45 and 60 mote myself. I hate a hot spot on my bar light. Like a smooth, even beam. Save the hot spot for the helmet

    Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk

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    Ledoman's links

    Thanks ledoman!
    Combinations of those 3 cupped collimator lenses as per your links would be ideal!
    As long as the faceplate and silicone o-ring seal are easily removable and the fixing hardware (bolts must be long enough) have decent matching threaded bolt holes machined into the body.
    That way the user can adapt the lenses to suit bar or head use, and of course personal preference!
    Goatman
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  158. #158
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    So far combination of 10 and 25 degrees with XM-L leds in a twin light suited me well for bar usage (mostly tested in MJ-880 clone), but that's me.

    In a tripple light finding best combination should be even easier as you have more choices. All the combination of 10,10,10 to 25,25,25 if we talking about only two. For more demanding users you can include some combination with XP-L HI as an DIY option. Since those lenses are very cheap anyone can easily order some spares and find out their own best beam.
    Last edited by ledoman; 06-14-2016 at 08:45 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GJHS View Post
    ...

    Sorry I haven't been on here a lot, except to read, I've been talking with GearBest almost daily to ensure all is as it should be. Nefertari is really working hard to make this perfect even though this isn't her department anymore A big thanks to her for pushing to get this built. GearBest set up a few deals and coupons for the forum while we wait, including the Yinding Sale and a sweet deal on the Garmin Edge 520 GPS bike computer. Suggestions welcome
    What are these deals you mentioned?

  160. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by shogan View Post
    What are these deals you mentioned?
    The latest two from Gearbest.com are for the Garmin Edge bike computers. I've been using the edge 520 and I'm really liking the features. Haven't taken it out in the woods yet, so far though this computer is sweet. I've even used it in my car! Wrong thread, so I'll post more about it another day in the proper forum section.

    The coupon ("garmin520") makes the Edge 520 - $264.99
    and the coupon ("garmin1000") which make the Edge 1000 - $479.99

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    OK, update from GB: A working sample should be ready by the end of June and then sent to us for testing.

    I have confirmed what it has and minus the remote, the list+ is there.

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    Good news, thx for update! Any specs thrown around yet?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirt Road View Post
    Good news, thx for update! Any specs thrown around yet?
    XPL LEDs, high power, driven hard and crazy bright!

    Oh and let's not forget: programmable

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    It will be very interesting to see what comes out of this initiative.

    Just a stupid question. Doesn't the choice of leds have impact on what optics that could be used??

  165. #165
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    Glad to hear!

    -Garry
    "My Bike Lights" Thread on BLF teardowns, measurements, and beamshots. Moving my photos, PM or post up if you can't see them.

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    Looking forward to this. Hopefully it stays relatively cheap!

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    Are the LEDs neutral white? What's the deal with the remote? Not sure I understood what the last comment about that meant. Will it have a remote (?) Wireless or wired?

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    There won't be a remote on the initial release of version 1 at this moment. In future revisions, if the light does well, they will add a remote. Main focus is a quality light around $50usd.

    I just asked about Neutral LEDs and the answer was undecided. Which is more desirable?

  169. #169
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    Not worth my time if it's not neutral as will cost another $15 in emitters to make the light usable. Dont want to be a pain but I cant ride with cool white unless the humidity/particulates in the air is insanely low otherwise I get a massive headache.

    Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk

  170. #170
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    Cool white is a deal breaker. Won't buy. Neutral all the way. Offer both?

  171. #171
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    Neutral white was one the most requested features of the new light.

    I also won't be buying a cool white version.

  172. #172
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    I won't bother buying a cool white version either.
    Neutral White please!
    Goatman
    - It's not the destination that counts but how you get there -

  173. #173
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    neutral white

  174. #174
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    Wink Its me

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirt Road View Post
    Cool white is a deal breaker. Won't buy. Neutral all the way. Offer both?
    Both.

  175. #175
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    Post up a teaser pict!

  176. #176
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    Successful BT21 and Yinding were both NW, I think the choice is obvious

  177. #177
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    As i expected and Nefertari also figured out: Neutral for the win. 3C I know. I just wanted to give you guys the choice.

    I agree 100%, after riding with neutral lights, I'm not sure I can go back. They are so much easier on the eyes over a long ride.

  178. #178
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    And when they start selling this, we definitely need a lighthead only option (without batteries and charger)

  179. #179
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    This will be a light head only. A good quality battery pack is easy to find.

  180. #180
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    Nice! Any additional info on this beast?

  181. #181
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    We just finalized the design! Now one last question:

    How deep should the fins be? GB thinks 3mm, I think deeper

    What do you think?

  182. #182
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    You should give us some more data about design. Not knowing anything about it (besides it has 3 leds), the fins are just the guessing. At least fins thicknes, orientation, length, number, etc....

  183. #183
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    Way too much info not being given.

    Like ledoman said, his list plus the fact of the drive current.

    You cant push 2A per emitter through 3 emitters in something that's basically a 3 emitter Yinding. Talk about thermal problems from hell, even with xp-l emitters.

    You said driven hard which means pushing at least 2.5A per emitter.

    And depth means little compared to thickness, spacing, and orientation of the fins.

    Based on how your talking I'm going to guess that the fins are cut just like that of a yinding or most other lights. Perpendicular to the air flow. In that case anything more than 3mm is totally pointless, moving air will never reach it.

    Just way to many variables to answer your question.

    Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk

  184. #184
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    The fins run front to back and cover most of the light with no sharp edges. I am trying to get the info on the driver. What i know is they plan to run the LEDs to their fullest and cooling is a priority.

    Sorry if there isn't enough information, I am sharing what I have. We have been focusing on design and features. What hasn't been discussed is driver information.

    What I can say is a prototype is coming in the next two weeks and I'm trying to get them to release the photo of the design.

  185. #185
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    Your talking a total of 9A push from that driver, don't even try it. The requirements of a head to push what would be 3600 lumens roughly prior to losses makes the head size required too large with the fact their using a more basic and old school head design and trying to keep it small. Driver isnt going to hold up for long and emitters are going to run grossly hot.

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  186. #186
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    Maybe you could tell them to maximize surface area for the given design. This could mean fins that are closer together, deeper fins or more fins. Fins deeper than 3 mm would probably be better, but maybe if they have enough of them it wouldn't make that much difference.

    Plus we are getting a prototype so hopefully they can make adjustments if it's not working properly.

    Keep up the the good work GJHS!

  187. #187
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    Sounds a lil iffy pushing specs to the extreme. Let's hope GB has a handle on reliability
    and good heat mgmt, especially for MRMOLE!

  188. #188
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    Pushing leds to 3A is contraproductive as the heat can't be taken away unless you have quite big and rather heavy shell. If you stay around 2.4-2.5A margin the heat would be manageable. When the leds heat they are less efficient (produce less light and more heat) and more and more current goes into heat until you get into thermal runaway.

    Pushing leds to 3A should be used only for short "turbo" mode and you have to have thermal protection. This much of power might be used as a last level in the programable driver.
    Don't forget to properly cool driver too. And if possible no PWM (but then it would be probably to expensive). If PWM is used it should have rather high fequency.

  189. #189
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    I don't recall GJHS saying that there would be 3A per emitter. I think most people here would be happy with 2A to 2.5A per emitter. This would result in less heat generated and perhaps better reliability.

  190. #190
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    "run the LEDs to their fullest". Aka 3A per emitter

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  191. #191
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    I agree, 2.0 to 2.5A per emitter is plenty good enough.

    -Garry
    "My Bike Lights" Thread on BLF teardowns, measurements, and beamshots. Moving my photos, PM or post up if you can't see them.

  192. #192
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    I'm sure that Gearbest wants this light reliable. I would assume they would only drive these Xpl emitters on the safe side if anything. They don't want unhappy customers. Look at their reluctance to carrying the bt21. And there's a demand for the 21...

  193. #193
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    All the optics that we posted on the previous page are for xm-l. Do we need different optics for XP-L? I've been reading that it's a successor to XP-G which is much smaller.

  194. #194
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    Xp-l isn't a successor. It's an xm-l2 phosphor crammed into a xpg2. Xp-l hi(yes hi is something completely different than xp-l) is a xp-l without the dome. Factory issue dedomed xm-l2 basically. So same optics will work just tighter beam or allows xp-l hi to function well with xpg2 optics.

    The successor to xp-g2 is the new xp-g3.

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  195. #195
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    Yes, not a direct successor, but a replacement for the XP-G. I got that from the product page


    The XLamp® XP-L LED is the first commercially available single-die LED to deliver breakthrough efficacy of up to 200 lm/w at 350 mA. The game-changing Cree® XLamp XP-L LED delivers an immediate performance increase of 50% or more as a drop-in upgrade for lighting designs based on Cree’s market-leading XLamp XP-G LEDs. As the brightest member of the industry’s only family of high-density-class discrete LEDs, the new XP-L LED redefines system performance, cost and size of LED lighting.
    The point is that's it's a different size, 3.45 mm versus 5 mm of the XM-L2.

    So would this be the correct optic?
    10°, 30°, 60°, 80° degree Lens for CREE XP-L, XP-G2, XT-E, XP-G, XP-E

  196. #196
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    This optics have corect dimension for leds with 3.45mm base, but is the phosphor dye size which counts in optics and with XP-L (HI) dye size is same as XM-L (2). So we need to use XM-L type optics.

    Of couse I can't say the optics you linked would not work, but they were designed for smaller dye (regardless there is XP-L in title, they fit sizewise) and should be tested. The problem is in the beam which should be even and not ringy (which might happen).
    Last edited by ledoman; 06-26-2016 at 11:36 AM.

  197. #197
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    Ok, I get it now.

  198. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by varider View Post
    Ok, I get it now.
    Thanks for asking all the questions related to the XP-L emitters. This is one area I'm not to sure about on this light. I've read comments on the XP-LHI but have yet to read anything on the XP-L so I'm not sure what to expect. Will be a learning experience, but that's always fun!
    Mole

  199. #199
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    The only advantage to them is that they run slightly cooler than xm-l2. And that requires being mounted on DTP copper boards too have any noticeable effect. Even then it's not something that would make a big difference in thermal performance of a bike light in high temp usage. Many because of thermal resistance from emitter to external area of the case.

    DTP copper mcpcbs, actually screwed down with higher end thermal paste (the normal stuff used is just zinc oxide cream) then you'd be getting somewhere for a boost in performance.



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  200. #200
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    The more I ride at night, the warmer tints are becoming even more appealing. I'd like to see a light done at the 3500-4000k personally. A high cri nichia or an xhp50 double would be sweet...

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