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  1. #1
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    The Battery Thread 2016 and Beyond

    Since the old thread about batteries goes back into 2013 it is time to start new one (thanks Cat). I'm going to structure it a bit differently and try to keep all important things in the first two posts.

    This thread should be used as a guide how/where to get good battery packs and all their technical characteristics. Please avoid endless discussions about nonrelated stuff and try to keep this thread clean and on topic.

    If anyone wants me to update or add something important to all readers, specialy the begginers, write it down and/or send me a PM, will try to act promptly.

    In the post #2 I'm going to list links and reviews about batteries. Don't expect to be all there right away. If you miss one, tell me.

    Also important thing, we are members from all over the world, not just the USA. So when giving advices or some comments think of members not living in the USA. So some things can be good for someone but not for all. On the other hand someone asking for advice should tell where (aprox.) is comming from so the answers might be more directed not just some general or not relevant. Thank you.

  2. #2
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    Reserved

    Reserved for links, etc...
    * Disclaimer: Ordering from any of the sources below is at your own risk. There might be some mistakes and outdated links.

    Old 2013 thread:
    http://forums.mtbr.com/lights-night-...-a-834295.html

    China sources:


    US sources:


    Reviews:


    Educational stuff:



    Edit 4th, Mar.2018: Added ROCKBROS 4-Cell review to the list above

    More to be added..... tell me what to add.

    PS. If you find my work of some value there is star below to be used
    Last edited by ledoman; 10-17-2018 at 12:48 PM.

  3. #3
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    Good show ledoman! I like how you structured this. Going forward this should be the place people go for battery information. I know you wanted to keep most information in the first two posts but as you go along this might become a problem. When I started the first Battery thread that was kind of my intent as well but unfortunately I found out after about two weeks or so that I was not able to edit the OP. Seems MTBR puts a time limit on how long you can edit a post. In order to edit after two weeks you have to become a moderator or get a moderator to do the editing. ( unless they have changed things since then )...just a heads up.

  4. #4
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    Thanks Cat! Will see what happens. Mostly I'm going to edit post #2 not the OP so this might work out. If getting into truouble I will contact admin otherwise I can always start new thread and use copy/paste. And maybe I just need more reputation points

  5. #5
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    I'm still unable to add more +rep's to you, but sure others will do that.

    BTW, is it really necessary to list 11 links to the Battery University? IMHO, single one is quite enough...

  6. #6
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    Well, it is not necessary but there is a lot of reading and people tends to get scared with all that stuff so I've choosen topics they should read. It is easier for them seeing relevant topics. And not all know what to look for.

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    Ok.

  8. #8
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    Ok, transporting my question from the old thread to this one:

    "Anyone tried using Sub C batteries with bike lights? if so, how big of mAh they can go?" Is something like this could work?
    Panasonic Battery Sub C 1 2V 3000mAh Soldering Lug Z Shape Aku Battery | eBay
    I'm considering stacking them up inside the Steerer tube of my bike, but I would need to figure it out how the create the connections. "


    Reply from ledoman:


    OK. Let stay for a moment here, regardless there is new battery thread. I should post it here.

    Yes I think it is possible to use those cells stacked, but there are few things to tell/ask.

    1. If the chemistry (don't want Li-Ion) is of main concern then good Ni-Mh can be used
    2. Energy wise Li-Ion are much better. For example same 3000mAh Li-Ion cell has 3.7V nominal and weigts 45gr while this Ni-Mh has 1.2V and weights 58gr. So the ratio is higher than 3/1.
    3. You would need to stack from 3 to 6 Ni-Mh cells (depends on light and driver) which would be long from 135 to 270mm while Li-ion would be from 70-140mm.
    4. To stack them I would use capton tape to isolate wiring and nickel or copper stripes and solder to the tabs.

    Hope it helps.


    My answer:

    Quote Originally Posted by ledoman View Post
    Energy wise Li-Ion are much better. For example same 3000mAh Li-Ion cell has 3.7V nominal and weigts 45gr while this Ni-Mh has 1.2V and weights 58gr. So the ratio is higher than 3/1.
    Very good point

    3. You would need to stack from 3 to 6 Ni-Mh cells (depends on light and driver) which would be long from 135 to 270mm while Li-ion would be from 70-140mm.
    go it!
    Ok let me forget about Sub C then. Going back to the best of best 18650 3400 MAh Panasonic's, I can fit 3 of them inside the Steerer tube, not the ideal 4x.
    3x of 3400MAh would be enough to power a 8x LED Head unit?

  9. #9
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    You should tell us much more about your light or send a link. In general there you need 1 battery cell per led to get somewhat decent runtime. Of course it really much depends on the power you need/want.

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    So I purchased these...suppose to be 3400 mAh...but this is what the display shows me a full charge. Something is wrong right?


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    Quote Originally Posted by andrepsz View Post
    So I purchased these...suppose to be 3400 mAh...but this is what the display shows me a full charge. Something is wrong right?

    The display on that charger is showing how much was put into the battery to bring them up to full charge, so assuming those were brand new batteries which usually come with a 50% charge, that looks about right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwarwick View Post
    The display on that charger is showing how much was put into the battery to bring them up to full charge, so assuming those were brand new batteries which usually come with a 50% charge, that looks about right.
    That is very helpful! I was about to complain to the seller, thanks

  13. #13
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    You should use TEST feature on this charger to get capacity readings. BTW, BT-C3100 would show you a bit more than it is real. I would say about 5-10%, depends on resistors used in particular sample.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ledoman View Post
    You should use TEST feature on this charger to get capacity readings. BTW, BT-C3100 would show you a bit more than it is real. I would say about 5-10%, depends on resistors used in particular sample.

    This is the test reading from the original batteries coming with my light (not Panasonic). By weighting the batteries some where around 30g and I mistrust the real capacity on them (suppose to be 3400 mAh).

  15. #15
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    Doesn't look like the test is done in that photo. Looks to be in progress.

    -Garry
    "My Bike Lights" Thread on BLF teardowns, measurements, and beamshots. Moving my photos, PM or post up if you can't see them.

  16. #16
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    I'm new to batteries...figure of get this charger to learn faster! Any input from you guys is much appreciated...thanks!

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    OK, to put it in the right way. My protected Panasonic cell weights about 49-53g, I guess the protection can't do the 23g. You can post the link where you get yours from. Might be helpful for others. And I post another useful link for cells and chargers reviews. Yes, it was posted many times here on forum:

    Battery test-review 18650 summary

  18. #18
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    I am seriously considering the new battery packs that Ledoman and Kaidomain have been working on. I was wondering what are people's preference for a SAFE charger for them? Thanks!

    BTW, the battery packs are for my two Designshine lights.

  19. #19
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    I'm not aware of any cheap and safe charger that works at higher currents (ie.2-3A). Maybe some of the guys here would direct you to some sources. It also depends where on the planet you live. Maybe you can find something here: http://forums.mtbr.com/lights-night-...ks-944978.html

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    Thanks for the quick reply ledoman! I know that I can order chargers from the Chinese firms such as Hunk Lee (sp?) but am not sure about the quality. An alternative would be from Gemini Lights but the shipping from Victoria, BC to Singapore where I now reside would be crazy in relation to the value of the charger. I might as well order their batteries at the same time too! hehehe

  21. #21
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    The charger of Hunk Lee looks pretty much the same as the one I've tested. Of course I can't say internals are the same, but price wise it better to be good.
    I'm going to try to arrange some charger at Kaidomain, but it might take quite some time.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by MK96 View Post
    OK, to put it in the right way. My protected Panasonic cell weights about 49-53g, I guess the protection can't do the 23g. You can post the link where you get yours from. Might be helpful for others. And I post another useful link for cells and chargers reviews. Yes, it was posted many times here on forum:

    Battery test-review 18650 summary

    Charger was purchased from here:
    http://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/390881839694

    And Panasonic batteries from here:
    http://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/111845715744

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    The Battery Thread 2016 and Beyond

    Ok so here is an 'case study': left these batteries on 'discharge refresh' mode for a long time, I understand this mode suppose to discharge and charge 3 times to fix any memory issues on the cells...correct? This is the reading a got at the end of the process.

    Status NULL wasn't showing in the beginning and I started all 4 at the same time.

    What interpretation should I have from this process?


    Batteries on charger:

  24. #24
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    ..that ultrafire are crap? Like you should already know this. Search around and you'll see that those batteries tend to contain a very small cell and rest is filled with flour or something :|

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    Quote Originally Posted by nathan89 View Post
    ..that ultrafire are crap? Like you should already know this. Search around and you'll see that those batteries tend to contain a very small cell and rest is filled with flour or something :|
    Yes I Know. I got some Panasonic 3400 mAh to replace these. Aware of the poor quality on ultrafires I'm running them on this charger to understand how to identify those issues...any help is appreciated! I'm new to batteries.

  26. #26
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    OK, it US seller. Do the full test with panasonics, charger seems to be working and xxx-fire cells are usually crap (400-800mAh is normal to get from it) The full discharge refresh should read around 2800-3000mAh with Pana cells.


  27. #27
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    Just running "Test" mode at 500mA current (or 1000mA if you are pretty sure they are quality batteries) should be sufficient. Even a 500mA test will identify Ultrafires or fake batteries. Don't get concerned if a 3,400mAh claimed battery tests at say 3,000mAh; you're looking for drastically lower capacities. You can also compare to user HKJ's tests/reviews here: Flashlight information .

    -Garry
    "My Bike Lights" Thread on BLF teardowns, measurements, and beamshots. Moving my photos, PM or post up if you can't see them.

  28. #28
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    andrepsz, I just don't get it. You are running all but TEST feature which will only get you information you are looking for. Refresh feature is worthless with Li-Ion batteries. It is meant for Ni-Mh type of cells. On the pictures I don't seen any result from the first attempt. To bad this charger shows results after full discharge at recharging stage. TEST mode consists of charge/discharge/charge cycle.

    I would advise you to test only two cells at a time. Use 2 outer bays and set them to 2000mAh. This will make TEST at 1000mAh. You will shorten process very much and you'll faster get results. From two you'll already aprox. know for the others.

  29. #29
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    Thanks Ledoman ...I don't get it...that's why I'm here! Have a lot on my plate right now with family, two kids under 3 to raise, work and projects...don't really have time to dig deep the Internet to master the knowledge on batteries. I will appreciate a lot any feedback from this thread that can speed up my understanding in this field.

    Ok...I will run the next test using your advice thanks.

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    Stick around and don't miss figures after discharge part. It should happen around 3 hours after discharge part starts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by garrybunk View Post
    Just running "Test" mode at 500mA current (or 1000mA if you are pretty sure they are quality batteries) should be sufficient. Even a 500mA test will identify Ultrafires or fake batteries. Don't get concerned if a 3,400mAh claimed battery tests at say 3,000mAh; you're looking for drastically lower capacities. You can also compare to user HKJ's tests/reviews here: Flashlight information .

    -Garry

    Thanks Garry!

  32. #32
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    I am still wondering why your cells weigh 30g. Do the test and let us know the result if you have a bit of time. I know 3yo kids need a lot of time ;-)

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    ..because they're the "fake" ultrafire, that contain a small lithium cell and the rest is filled with flour, watch here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOshOXcSkDA&t=120

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    Naaah, I've lost a bit in this and thought Pana cells were about 30g. Sure, the xxx-fire cells that weigh less are fake and low capacity.

  35. #35
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    Added review of a 2S1P pack from Kaidomain:
    http://forums.mtbr.com/lights-night-...in-999743.html

    Edit:
    Added to the list of reviews also: http://forums.mtbr.com/lights-night-...ck-999562.html
    Last edited by ledoman; 01-06-2016 at 07:04 AM.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by MK96 View Post
    Naaah, I've lost a bit in this and thought Pana cells were about 30g. Sure, the xxx-fire cells that weigh less are fake and low capacity.
    Panasonic cells are 46-47grams each, just weighed ncr18650b and ncr18650ga on my scale to be sure.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by MK96 View Post
    I am still wondering why your cells weigh 30g. Do the test and let us know the result if you have a bit of time. I know 3yo kids need a lot of time ;-)
    They do! 30g was on the ultrafire's.

  38. #38
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    Left these brand new pana cells on my bike light all day long to let it discharge then full charge to see the numbers, quite happy to see that even exceeded the claimed 3400mAh.
    I'm just wondering why the last cell had such a different discharge rate than the others?

  39. #39
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    Its because they were unbalanced. What is very concerning is it seems you well over discharged them. The cells shouldn't have exceeded capacity, they actually should come up a bit short.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by tigris99 View Post
    Its because they were unbalanced. What is very concerning is it seems you well over discharged them. The cells shouldn't have exceeded capacity, they actually should come up a bit short.
    The light was actually still going on but low when I took the batteries out. It wasn't fully discharged.

  41. #41
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    Are they protected cells?

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by tigris99 View Post
    Are they protected cells?
    Good question, those green pana cells all should be protected right? here is the link from where I got them:
    Brand New "4" Panasonic NCR18650B 3 7V 3400mAh Battery 18650 w Case | eBay

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    No, these are unprotected.

  44. #44
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    Omg.....



    You just trashed your cells. You can't just use these like any other battery. They have a minimum discharge voltage and such, just because they still power a light doesn't mean their not dead. CANNOT EVER GO BELOW 2.5V PER CELL. Preferably for safety not below 3v per cell at rest (2.5V under load)



    Need to have those cells properly disposed of before they start leaking gel.

    What you just did is exactly how people burn half their houses down or end up with poisoning from the gel, BY MAKING ASSUMPTIONS and messing with things (thus doing it wrong) they haven't taken the time to learn how to use.

  45. #45
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    Ledman , can I use this charger of hunk lee to charge my 6 pack batery from Kaidoman?
    Quote Originally Posted by ledoman View Post
    The charger of Hunk Lee looks pretty much the same as the one I've tested. Of course I can't say internals are the same, but price wise it better to be good.
    I'm going to try to arrange some charger at Kaidomain, but it might take quite some time.

  46. #46
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    Yes you can. If you are going to buy this one, please report it back what is it's actual output voltage. It would be valuable information to the other users. Please use some Digital Multimeter to measure voltage.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by tigris99 View Post
    Omg.....
    You just trashed your cells. You can't just use these like any other battery. They have a minimum discharge voltage and such, just because they still power a light doesn't mean their not dead. CANNOT EVER GO BELOW 2.5V PER CELL. Preferably for safety not below 3v per cell at rest (2.5V under load)

    Need to have those cells properly disposed of before they start leaking gel.

    What you just did is exactly how people burn half their houses down or end up with poisoning from the gel, BY MAKING ASSUMPTIONS and messing with things (thus doing it wrong) they haven't taken the time to learn how to use.
    Tig, I don't think there was some big problem. Maybe you missed my note that BT-C3100 chargers has somewhat to high readings. Also charging part has some looses.

    And we don't know what was happening there for shure. Only andrepsz could tell some details and what was their voltage. It is also unknow if they were at rest for some time or went immediately to the charger. Voltage raise to some degree when cells are left to rest for some time.
    The forth cell can be still good. It might be there was bad contact or something and it wasn't fully discharged.
    andrepsz should also tell what is his battery pack setup and/or what lights he is using. We don't know nothing about them.

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    The Battery Thread 2016 and Beyond

    Quote Originally Posted by ledoman View Post
    Tig, I don't think there was some big problem. Maybe you missed my note that BT-C3100 chargers has somewhat to high readings. Also charging part has some looses.

    And we don't know what was happening there for shure. Only andrepsz could tell some details and what was their voltage. It is also unknow if they were at rest for some time or went immediately to the charger. Voltage raise to some degree when cells are left to rest for some time.
    The forth cell can be still good. It might be there was bad contact or something and it wasn't fully discharged.
    andrepsz should also tell what is his battery pack setup and/or what lights he is using. We don't know nothing about them.

    Skyray King 8xcree , with pana batteries in it.

    Cells went straight from the light to charger with no rest, they are new. Like I said before they were still holding up some decent light right before putting in the charger...I'm quite surprised by the number as well, shouldn't be that high.

  49. #49
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    I had li-ion cells from a failed laptop pc battery, they are about 8 years now. Heavily discharged Sanyos to anything around 0-1 Volts unloaded. I've put them in the charger to test and charge with a very low current and saved 3 from 6. The 0V were dead the other with higher voltage are just fine and sit at 2200mAh now with no signs of damage and good discharge curve. Suspicious might be the cell on the right side of the photo that got actually only 2500mAh charge. You might test that one - do a chage/discharge/charge to see what is left in it. If the 3400 Pana has only 2500mAh left, it might be slightly damaged.

  50. #50
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    If the King uses cells in parallel at least the current was distributed between the 4 cells equally. Just test the cells properly (do charge test and quick test to get capacity and internal resistance) in the Opus charger if they have some sign of damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by andrepsz View Post
    Skyray King 8xcree , with pana batteries in it.

    Cells went straight from the light to charger with no rest, they are new. Like I said before they were still holding up some decent light right before putting in the charger...I'm quite surprised by the number as well, shouldn't be that high.

  51. #51
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    andrepsz, now you only need to show us how your light looks inside. Does it have battery holder and in what setup the cells are put in. Are in series or in parallel.

    I can speculate all cells are in parallel and the forth one had bad contact.

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by ledoman View Post
    andrepsz, now you only need to show us how your light looks inside. Does it have battery holder and in what setup the cells are put in. Are in seriaes or in parallel.

    I can speculate all cells are in parallel and the forth one had bad contact.
    Look above, Skyray King.

  53. #53
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    There is so many Skyray kings out there and they are Chinese so you never know....

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by ledoman View Post
    There is so many Skyray kings out there and they are Chinese so you never know....
    full tittle on the light was: 'Skyray King 9800 Lumens 8x CREE XM-L XML T6 LED Flashlight Spotlight Hunting Lamp Tactical Torch Light Aluminum Alloy Searchlight Lantern For Outdoor'

    I know it can't be 9800 Lumens but after some research looks like each Led can generate 1000...so this one is 8000 for sure...right? please say yes!

  55. #55
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    It is really little more difficult than you think. Chinese light specs vary from batch to batch and there exist a bunch of their clones where they go as cheap as they can. Cree XM-L LEDs are capable to output 1000lm but at [email protected] and that means 10W of power needed. If you have 8 LEDs then math do 80W of total consumed power and there is some overhead for the electronic circuit that drives these LEDs and you can end up with 100W. I would guess King might be 30W.

  56. #56
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    OK, here is battery thread. Andrepsz again, why can't you tell what I'm asking. Open your light and see how the battery container is constructed. If you don't know, make some pictures so we could find out. This is essential to uderstand how things are working.

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by ledoman View Post
    OK, here is battery thread. Andrepsz again, why can't you tell what I'm asking. Open your light and see how the battery container is constructed. If you don't know, make some pictures so we could find out. This is essential to uderstand how things are working.

    taken from the internet: https://i00.i.aliimg.com/img/pb/676/...146676_134.jpg.

    Sorry I don't have the light with me right now

  58. #58
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    My thing is knowing what he did and having torture tested cells just to see how Panasonic cells handled being pushed too hard, they can and the worst one(s) probably will start leaking gel being over discharged then charged. The gel being toxic and highly corrosive its not even worth the risk to try and save them.



    he may have managed to only hit the bottom limit of the cells and they may be ok, but the next person who reads this thread not knowing what hes doing (like andre) could turn around and do it with cheap cells and burn their house down. That's part of why I make such a big deal because its extremely high risk and for every 1 of us that know what we are doing, there is 1000 people that don't and read these threads to learn. Hate reading about people getting chemical burns from leaking cells or like the latest thread, almost burning their house to the ground.

    Which is why I may sound rude and I apologize if so, but trying to be very stern. If you don't know fully how do use li-ion cells, then ONLY USE PROTECTED CELLS AND AVOID CHEAP CHINESE BATTERY PACKS.

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    To bad. This picture doesn't tell us for sure, but can you recall if the all cells had same orientation - posititive (button) side on top? If yes, then all cells are in paralell.

    Tig I understand your concerns, but here is not the tipical battery pack in question as you can see from the link above. And I AGREE with you. In this situation for Andre protected cells would be better. Since bare cells has flat top the contact to the driver might be bad and I suspect this is the reason why one cell has been discharged less than the others.

  60. #60
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    Thanks tigris99...I'm glad I'm here to post any possible stupidity I might do...and learn from it. Wish everyone did that instead of burning their houses!

    Ledoman...positive up on all of them. I'm disappointed that my cells aren't 'protected'...I assumed that all panasonic's were. what "protected" really means anyhow? and how to easily identify them when shopping for it? is it visible? can we see just my looking at a photo?

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    Thanks a lot! should have gotten the protected one. It seems like this Skyray King works better with a longer battery. I had some issues with connectivity since the positive head side is very shallow...comparing with the protected version. Fixed the problem already. thanks!

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    You should tell as more at the begining. Hope we have solved your issues and we can finish this discussion now.

  64. #64
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    I know this is suppose to be 'battery only' thread...but just for information...I just left my Skyray King turned ON for 5h30min straight without any noticeable drop in light...left at mid power. I would assume that it was throwing around 4000 lumens all this time since its a 8 x cree model.

    Thoughts? Good stuff...normal? Bad? I don't really have an ideia

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    I would assume that it was throwing around 4000 lumens all this time since its a 8 x cree model.
    If that light did 4000 lumen on the highest setting, I would be surprised. Your 4 cells combined have ~50 Whr of usable power. IF you ran the light for 5 hours on the middle setting and the batteries were discharged to ~2,5V, then you had ~10W of output at the middle setting. 10W is going to be more like 1500 lumen at best and most likely lower. Since your test ran longer than 5 hours and your batteries apparently are not discharged to ~2.5V then your mid setting must be less than 10W
    GoPro adapters for bike lights http://www.pacifier.com/~kevinb/index.html

  66. #66
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    The Battery Thread 2016 and Beyond

    Full power should be 9000, but I found somewhere that's each led might be producing 1000 in this Skyray...so that would be 8000 real Throw at full power. Don't believe it's dropping all the way to 1500 at mid position( there is only 3; Off, mid and high).

    I need to remember...and learn how to check the cells usage after taking them off the light. I'm intrigued now!

  67. #67
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    That light maybe produces 4000 lumens on high.

    Just because the emitters CAN produce 1000 lumens each DOES NOT MEAN THEY ARE IN A GIVEN LIGHT. Its determined by the driver. And there is NO WAY IN HE** that light is pushing 3 amps per emitter on high, you would be able to cook your breakfast on it easily.

    What's vanc said especially looking at your picture is about right. 1200-1500 lumens mid level at best.

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by andrepsz View Post
    Full power should be 9000, but I found somewhere that's each led might be producing 1000 in this Skyray...so that would be 8000 real Throw at full power.
    Not trying to piss in your Cheerios, but not a chance. Like I said earlier 4000 lumen would be surprising. If it was driven hard enough to crank out 8000 lumen it would be drawing >24A and would burn through the batteries in about a half hour.

    Start a new thread about your light and some of the more experienced members here can guide you to better estimate the output at each setting.

    Apologies to the OP for dragging his thread further off-topic.
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    I SINCERLY HOPE YOU WOULD MOVE DISCUSSION TO SOME OTHER PLACE.

    I'm eaching to answer about it, but BudgetLightForum.com is THE right place to discuss it, so PLEASE move there. There is also much more users who deals with flashlights.

  70. #70
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    How this is not on topic? Understanding how 4x panasonic 3400 can light up for 5h30min at X amount of Lumens ? its a case to be analyzed to say the least. Now yes...If I want to start talking about this specific Skyray King Light..yes that's off topic and I'll look for other threads. I don't have to apologize to the OP, I do have to say again thank you for explaining to me the basics and providing resources for me to read when I have some time.

    Cheers...getting lost now.

  71. #71
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    Well tho is just supposed to be batteries only, lumen output is way off topic.

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by andrepsz View Post
    How this is not on topic? Understanding how 4x panasonic 3400 can light up for 5h30min at X amount of Lumens ? its a case to be analyzed to say the least. Now yes...If I want to start talking about this specific Skyray King Light..yes that's off topic and I'll look for other threads. I don't have to apologize to the OP, I do have to say again thank you for explaining to me the basics and providing resources for me to read when I have some time.

    Cheers...getting lost now.
    Before you get too excited you need to look at the exchange rate for Chinese lumens to actual lumens. I think they are about the same as the Mexican peso to the US dollar.

  73. #73
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    Updated first post with new breif review:

    http://forums.mtbr.com/lights-night-...n-1000490.html

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    Do you have a specific charger thread? I can't seem to find it, so I'll post this here, and see what happens

    Other than the low quality build, ( which can be worked on if needed), those chinese chargers are unsafe because they give varying voltage outputs.

    But what if we use this?Name:  Izrezak.PNG
Views: 2124
Size:  9.2 KB

    Its very easy to make, quite cheap, and you can adjust the output voltage to desired 8,4V, and then either use a fixed value resistor, or just leave the variable, but don't touch it.

    Since the input/output voltage difference is less than 10V, the LM is good for up to 4,5A, which is a overkill. Just need a heat sink and it's good to go...

  75. #75
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    We do have chargers thread http://forums.mtbr.com/lights-night-...ks-944978.html and hopefuly we will have new one this year. Maybe we should move discussion there. Would you make a copy of your post and I'll answer there.

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by ledoman View Post
    I SINCERLY HOPE YOU WOULD MOVE DISCUSSION TO SOME OTHER PLACE.

    I'm eaching to answer about it, but BudgetLightForum.com is THE right place to discuss it, so PLEASE move there. There is also much more users who deals with flashlights.
    I agree. At this point the discussion is more about the lamp ( torch ) and what output it has. Move it to the "Cheap-O Chinese lamp" thread. FWIW, the seller/manufacturer of the torch claims it can output 9600 lumen ( that's almost too funny ). My bet you might get an actual 1500-2000 on high if lucky. Low is likely about 300-400 lumen, which helps explain the long run time.

  77. #77
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    So, as mentioned, I got my chinese crap pack. Before I order the ledoman pack, what can and should I do with this one? I would like to add a balancing plug. I suppose I have to open up the pack, and solder the wires to b+/- and add a wire from ++/-- connection to BM point on the PCB. What if there isn't any? Should I do a discharge/charge cycle? I know the pack is bad, but I would like to make the best of it for now.

  78. #78
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    First tear down the pack and measure the voltages of each cells pair. Make some pictures of the bare pack with wireing and post it here. If you can, make good macro picture of PCM to show electronic elements (it is not called PCB).
    Then we will tell you for further steps.

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by ledoman View Post
    If you can, make good macro picture of PCM to show electronic elements (it is not called PCB).
    PCB generally stands for 'printed circuit board', and is pretty valid name here.

  80. #80
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    Ok, but I've mostly seen it as PCM (Protection Circuit Module) which is probably aimed to tell you what it is used for. PCB is also used for boards where leds are mounted, though, so very generic.

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    thnx archie for stepping up olready copied the wiki link for PCB. PCM is pulse code modulation

    But the main thing is we understand each other. ... I'm going to dissasemble it ASAP

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    Ok.. here it is. I have a problem, and that problem is easily solved, but requires soldering. Not sure how much heat can the battery take and not get damaged. I believe it wont heat up much, but.. opinions? I have to cut the BM contact in order to turn the protection circuit around.

    The cells are pink. are they samsung.. LG or some chinese knockoff?

    The voltages are pretty consistent, one 2P is 4.10V, the other 4.14V

    The Battery Thread 2016 and Beyond-cdedacaf97f93ba9680cf4e3d2bf06cf4f282d60d11425836493ac370a9bc5cc.jpgThe Battery Thread 2016 and Beyond-4ace17744cab18baa3bd43cb736276f482a7166d853e36f31a77616012af849a.jpgThe Battery Thread 2016 and Beyond-e3c9db6333d69536ae5eb897e2d444d5edad248839183262d8de448c00091ae9.jpg

  83. #83
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    f... it..


    I broke it of, solder it later...

    can't make a better macro. my camera is crappy, and phone hasn't got a macro...The Battery Thread 2016 and Beyond-zoom-pcm.jpg

    now I have to make some kind of a glove...from a surgical glove

    blah, no macro option on my phone, but a magnifier app on the phone so good it would make awesome macros

    the smallest IC says 2120 CB, and two other are marked 8205A 1545

  84. #84
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    Looks like corrosion on one pair of cells???

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    Dunno. I packed them away. I think it was some kind of soldering paste..

    edit:

    Yup, 'twas corrosion. Cleaned up most of it, and repacked the batteries.

  86. #86
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    Get rid of those batteries, they are already leaking.

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    hmmmmm I wouldn't be so sure. The only corroded part was the top of the battery ( it looks like a metal dome on 4 "legs" atop of the battery. The flat part on which it resides is nice and shiney. I would sooner say that the corrosion occurred due to the glue with which the top foil was glued

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    https://g02.s.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1ewHH...ttery-3-7V.jpg

    this is what I'm talking about.. the 4 point "dome". Underneath it, the metal is absolutely clean without signs of corrosion

  89. #89
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    The cells are Chinese estimating based on previously seen at about 1100-1200mAh each so up to 2400mAh for the pack at best.

    Voltage would be consistent if the difference was 0.01V or less.

    Since there are no markings on the cells I can only guess but those cells behaves quite well at very low current. At the higger currents around 1A and above they have prety low capacity. Take a look at http://forums.mtbr.com/lights-night-...gb-982688.html

    I would use this pack for very short rides and with weak lights only. They are also good for limited testing purposes.

  90. #90
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    ok, so I have to charge them at about 0,75-1A max. even at the lowest setting the light is pretty bright for my kind of riding...

    the seller refunded me half the price, so at 9,5$ the light and the pack is awesome

  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChILd_ReBoRn View Post
    hmmmmm I wouldn't be so sure. The only corroded part was the top of the battery ( it looks like a metal dome on 4 "legs" atop of the battery. The flat part on which it resides is nice and shiney. I would sooner say that the corrosion occurred due to the glue with which the top foil was glued

    You'll find out soon enough that the battery pack needs to be disposed of and its already leaking. That corrosion is either due leaking cells, not the adhesive used to assemble them.

    Just a heads up cause the crap they leak is toxic.

  92. #92
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    k.. wont lick them

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    From time to time, ultra-cheap Chinese batteries and chargers could be really dangerous:
    http://forums.mtbr.com/lights-night-...se-997922.html

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    listen guys, let's not get overly excited. I'm not some economics graduate who hasn't got a clue about anything other than numbers. No offense to economists. I'm an electrician, and I'm well aware of LiION dangers. I was charging my battery by my side, in a metal pot, covered with a metal lid. I was by her side all the time, constantly checking the battery/charger temperature. I will change the pack first chance I got, but I'm no Gates, and I don't have any excess money. Momenterally.. 30$ is as much as 3000$. After my paycheck, IF there's anything left after my mortgage, and gas/electricity/garbage disposal/phone/ineternet/mobile phone/water/all kind of crap bills, I'll get the better pack.. OK? then.. the spring will come, longer days, and I won't need the light until next winter...

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    Ok.

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    Good, I did my first controlled discharge using the turnigy charger. The Voltage shown on the LCD was 6.xxV. Forgot was it .37 or .73V. Besides the point, anyway. Why can't I measure any voltage with my voltmeter? Could it be that the PCM cuts off any voltage drain as to prevent battery damage? I tried to plug the pack in the lamp, and all three leds are turned off. If the lack of voltage isn't PCM's doing, what has happened?

  97. #97
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    What LCD is showing that voltage because if it cut off and your reading that high, the pack is way outta balance?

  98. #98
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    the charger LCD. I was doing a discontinued discharge, since I was fiddling with the settings. But the longest one ( from somwhere around 7,8V to the end) was the one that was the final one. So the discharge went on 0,6A ( although I set up a 1A, but the charger went to 0,6A and stopped), and when I woke up 6 hrs later, the LCD was shoving as follows:
    blinking END 2S, voltage (aforementioned 6,37 or ,73 I forgott ), discharged capacity ( around 1580 mAh, plus around 900mAh discharged at the first attempt), and discharge time.

    I could buy the balance plug, solder it on the battery connectors and plug it into the charger, and see what happens. Does the plug have some kind of a code name? I knoe I need a male 3 pin connector, but don't know the size...

  99. #99
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    I never use a balance plug, but just get one for a 2s lipo battery set up. I use the clips that I have for my charger with the pack open, charge the low side till its voltage (resting, tested on a DMM, not charger) matches that of the side that was higher. THen finish charging pack normally, check each bank again to make sure their in balance and done.

    You should set your charger to discharge to 3.0per cell (6V in this case), discharge then fully recharge. Will give you a better idea of the actual capacity.

  100. #100
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    He has his sharger set to 3.0V. Charger has only 5W of discharge power so 0.6A is the best it can do.

    I agree, one more full charge/discharge cycle would be good. But anyway I can predict you'll get around 2400mAh out of crapy chinese battery pack with unlabeled pinky cells.

    ChILd_ReBoR, after 1st charge phase, you can run few short charges with 0.5A to top up the pack. Then you should measure voltage of the pack. If it is still below 4.35V then it is very likely unbalanced. Disassemble pack and charge each pair separately as 1S (single cell). Be careful when making contacts not to make a short.

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    Ok, If it comes to that, that I have to charge 1S by 1S individually, why is this better than using a normal balance plug? I know that the once balanced pack doesn't need to be balanced so often, so the plug could get in the way, but since I can solder it on, wouldn't it speed up the charge proces? plug it in, and let it charge/balance automatically. It takes ages to charge it up, and I don't want to spend the entire day staring and the charger so the battery doesn't fire up

  102. #102
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    Balancing charge takes more time than ordinary. This is because it cycle charge full pack/discharge higher voltage cells. It can't be better implemented - longer story....

    All in all do it how you wish. Adding balance port is good, but only needed if/when cells are unbalanced, so first prove that then we can talk further. And all about this stuff is well explained on some RC forum. I'm out now....

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    1950mAh, after a full charge (1,2A). I'm discharging her now, and will recharge her tomorrow, and see what I get. That'll be it.

  104. #104
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    Dont full discharge then not charge right away, not good to do that as cell self discharge can drop pack too low and damage cells. Just good habit to never leave cells "dead"

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    full discharge complete. result: 2175 mAh, at 6,31V.

  106. #106
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    I discharged it after a charge, but charged it more than 12hrs after a discharge

  107. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChILd_ReBoRn View Post
    full discharge complete. result: 2175 mAh, at 6,31V.
    As predicted, crappy capacity out of crappy cells. Still, you didn't report what was the voltage after full topped charge so we can't say the pack is balanced or not.

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    Oh..damn. The charger said 8,40V. I will charge it up again today, measure it, discharge it on my bike, and see if I need to balance it

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    Don't look for the charger, use DMM instead. Charger is charging up to 8.40V anyway unless protection circuit on the battery pack kicks in.
    As I can recall from other packs I've seen before those pinky cells are quite good regarding being balanced. They are pretty even quality but just very low on capacity.

  110. #110
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    Ok, the charging is complete. Total capacity: 2088 mAh

    Cell 1: 4,22V
    Cell 2: 4,10V

    So the cell needs to be balanced.

    Now, what to do, should I just connect the cell 2 and add up the charge, or should I discharge it using my lamp, and just charge one, then another cell pack? The plug I bought for balanced charging isn't good. Too thick.

  111. #111
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    Yes, just connect cell2 pair and charge it up. Since your hobby charger won't charge to the 4.22V you might also discharge a bit cell1 pair. You may need to do it few times to get it equal.

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    4,17/4,19

    I think this is the best i can get. Added 185 mAh more to the cell

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    As you wish, but you can do it exactly equal if you like by repeating or (temporary at least) attach balancing connector and use balancing feature of your charger.

    Depending on cells quality you may get it unabalanced after one or just few discharge/charge cycles again. In that case I would advise you to solder balancing port permanently.

    Very likely you won't use this pack anymore (or very seldom) if you going to buy Panasonic based pack I've reviewed.

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    I cant find an adequate balance connector at my local electronic shop, and I don't want to wait 30 days for ebay shipping. I plan to use this pack as an emergency spare, since I plan to order the panny 2S1P set you recomended. For a helmet mount, it will take off some weight, and based on my google-ing, I should get about 2+ hrs on a 3500 mAh set (medium setting). SInce I don't do epic night rides, panny 2 cell and the spare chinese crappy pack.. should be just fine for a 3 hr ride

    update:

    ordered the ballance cable... I can't help myself

    update:

    will test my crappy pack, in real time. before ordering anything

  115. #115

  116. #116
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    Hello!

    Im looking for bicycle light. I may be buying one of these without battery: http://forums.mtbr.com/lights-night-...ns-971067.html

    And im asking you, is there better battery for that light? Im noob with lights and this is my first one. ~50 would be good if possible. It can be pretty big, but it has to run that light long. Thanks and sorry for my english.

  117. #117
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    None of the links works in that thread you have pointed out (at least not for me). It is hard to see connector and there is no data what is the running voltage. So who knows.

    But if the connector is 5.5x2.1mm and voltage 8.4V then packs I've reviewed and/or linked should work. It is just onyou to choose capacity. I would suggest 6 or 8 cells packs. You can find links to the suppliers in the 1st page of this thread.

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    Im not really good with batteries or electricity so, how i should choose the capacity? I want my light to be bright for long time. What are pros and cons for high capacity? What about low? What is the difference between 6 and 8 cells?

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    This is the stock battery i guess: http://www.kaidomain.com/product/Details.S021637
    Bigger is always better so more cells=better battery, or?

    Im thinking this: http://www.kaidomain.com/product/details.S021636
    Should work like stock but battery would last longer, right?

    Or should i change to li-ion? http://www.kaidomain.com/product/Details.S024616
    What charger would work with that? Do i have modify something if i change to li-ion?

    Why would anyone choose 4 cells over 8 cells? Less cells is lighter but what else?

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    I tried to post three times but my posts didnt show up so sorry if i tripleposted.

    This is the stock battery i guess: http://www.kaidomain.com/product/Details.S021637
    Bigger is always better so more cells=better battery, or?

    Im thinking this: http://www.kaidomain.com/product/details.S021636
    Should work like stock but battery would last longer, right?

    Or should i change to li-ion? http://www.kaidomain.com/product/Details.S024616
    What charger would work with that? Do i have modify something if i change to li-ion?

    Why would anyone choose 4 cells over 8 cells? Less cells is lighter but what else?

  121. #121
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    Difference is REAL capacity. Bigger is not always better. Cheapo packs doesn't have real capacity listed, very likely real is 2-3 times less.
    Go with packs I've reviewed and you won't fail. All Panasonic NCR18650x packs at Kaidomain are good. Use links from the post #2 or look the front page of http://www.kaidomain.com/ all packs listed as KBP - http://www.kaidomain.com/Search/SearchResult.NCR/348


    BTW, all you have listed are Li-Ion.

  122. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Topsi View Post
    Why would anyone choose 4 cells over 8 cells? Less cells is lighter but what else?
    Less weight and bulk... 8 cell packs are BIG.

    Heck, I even bought a bunch of the two cell packs. They meet my required battery life for certain situations and are much smaller and lighter (I can even mount one directly to my helmet).
    baker

  123. #123
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    That's why those giant and cheap junk/dangerous packs sell. Most people dont bother asking. They think the same thing then get mad when they realize they got screwed.

    NEVER EVER BUY CHEAP BATTERY PACKS THAT DONT USE BRAND NAME CELLS IN THEM.

    Sanyo, BAK, Samsung, LG, Panasonic.

    If the pack doesn't say one of those brand names in the name of the pack, its cheap crap. Lying on the capacity and possibly dangerous to use (cause fires).

  124. #124
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    Hi there

    I have a question. I was trying to balance out my crap pack today. I soldered the balancing plug (red on end +, black on end -, and the yellow one on the ++/-- connection). The plug is wired red/black/yellow. I asked the service at hobby king for the pin layout on my turnigy charger, and they say it doesn't matter. Most plugs I see online have red/yellow/black layout. When I plug in the balance plug, the charger starts to scream high voltage warning. It's set up correctly, balance at 0,8V, 7,4V (2S)

    What's the problem?

    I plugged the pack to my lamp, and after 90 minutes of medium intensity work, I measured the cells. They were around 3,8V. Still the charger screams to high voltage. why?

  125. #125
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    Did you solder on the input or output of the protection circuit?

    Also sounds like you balance plug is pinned wrong. Should be red yellow black.

    Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk

  126. #126
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    You wired like so?:


    Close-up of PCM:


    -Garry
    "My Bike Lights" Thread on BLF teardowns, measurements, and beamshots. Moving my photos, PM or post up if you can't see them.

  127. #127
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    yes, exactly like that, but I soldered it directly to the cells (well, the little tin foil connecting the cells).

    I thought it might be wired wrong...

  128. #128
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    ok, I changed the black and yellow wire, and no error. It's balance charging. Stupid hobby king operaters...

  129. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChILd_ReBoRn View Post
    Hi there

    I asked the service at hobby king for the pin layout on my turnigy charger, and they say it doesn't matter.
    How could it not matter?

    -Garry
    "My Bike Lights" Thread on BLF teardowns, measurements, and beamshots. Moving my photos, PM or post up if you can't see them.

  130. #130
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    I should have looked at your pics more closely before, ya you had that wired wrong lol. Freaking idiots at big name hobby stores. Dumb teenagers usually that don't know anything beyond plug and play.

    Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk

  131. #131
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    right.. and he was so confident about it.. I was like... riiiight.. if you say so.....

  132. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChILd_ReBoRn View Post
    right.. and he was so confident about it.. I was like... riiiight.. if you say so.....
    At least you had enough common sense to know something was wrong. Someone else might not of been so lucky. Looks like you came to the right place to get your questions answered. Kudos to the knowledgeable people posting on the new battery thread.

  133. #133
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    thumbs up!

  134. #134
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    If he would stick with his own thread http://forums.mtbr.com/lights-diy-do...s-1000307.html he would know how to connect the whole thing

  135. #135
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    I connected it right. As I mentioned, but my balance plugs came with different color order than my gut told me should be right. I blame the whole thing on the hobby king customer service

  136. #136
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    Yeah, we have already talked about it here http://forums.mtbr.com/lights-night-...l#post12098316

  137. #137
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    HI Guys

    2 weeks ago i wrote to Kaidomain why they don't sell good quality chargers that serve their nice panasonic batterys instead of those crappy standard ones.
    A friendly guy answered very fast and told me that they soon will get some test samples of a new charger.
    Some days ago he told me they are tested good and so i ordered one.
    In order i havent read anything about it in this Forum, i thought it might be worth posting it.
    They are offered wit US and EU plugs as well:

    --> http://kaidomain.com/Product/Details.S025061

    I've read that the charging current should be somewhere between 0.5C to 0.7C for those Panasonic/Sanyo Cells, so the 3A output is quite high. Does anyone know if it is still ok for the 2S1P battery?

    thanks in advance,
    BerndSon

  138. #138
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    A 4 cell 2s1p panasonic pack can be charged at 3A but that's about Max that it can be charged at.

    As you already said 0.5C charge rate, pack is well over 6000mah (6800mah rated). Which is 6.8 Ah. So .5C would be 3.4A.

    Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk

  139. #139
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    Hi tigris99,

    thanks for the quick reply!

    Quote Originally Posted by tigris99 View Post
    A 4 cell 2s1p panasonic pack can be charged at 3A but that's about Max that it can be charged at.

    As you already said 0.5C charge rate, pack is well over 6000mah (6800mah rated). Which is 6.8 Ah. So .5C would be 3.4A.
    Well, thats the point, the 2SP1 ist the one with only two cells and a capacity of 3500mah. (http://www.kaidomain.com/product/details.S024751)
    So 3A would be C=~0.9, which is quite high.

    I read in another Thread, that even a C=1 is ok for some good quality cells and will mostly just affect the amount of possible charging cycles.

    The reason why i initially posted the question was that i would like to know if this configuration (C= 0.9) seriously harms the cells (danger of overheating/explosion) or just drops the possible charging cycles by some percent.

  140. #140
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    We have already talked about it. NCR18650GA cells are rated for 10A discharge. This means they have lower internal resistance and thus can stand also higher current charge. I don't see problem charging this pack with 3A.

    But in general (valid for all Lithium based cells) you are right, charging with higher currents degrades cells life to some degree. Still if you take into account cells can stand 500 cycles and let take for example we degrade them to 365 cycles (for easy calculation) this would be still 1 cycle per day in one year. I'm shure no one is using them every day. Moderate usage would still give you 5 year lifetime with charging once every 5 days. In 5 years I'm shure you would buy another pack anyway. The other thing is degradation of capacity which also happens even if you don't use the cells (in very small amount).

    You may want to read:
    How to Prolong Lithium-based Batteries - Battery University

  141. #141
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    Ledoman is 100% right. I wont charge a 2 cell pack at 0.9C, I wont charge any pack that high. Highest I charge those cells in 2s1p config (I have a fenix case I use those cells in) is 2A. But thats partially because of charger cutoff is usually 10% of rated output current. So when charger reduces output down to 200mA then it thinks the pack is full (whether it actually is or not). I can usually squeeze in another 100-200mah into a pack by first charging it at .5-.75C for the speed of charging. Then if I want to make sure its full, put it on to charge at 1A. Little extra capacity (battery truly full).

    If it was me, I would not charge anything under 6000mah for capacity as high as 3A, but thats me. Yes quality cells you can push them harder but if you dont have a nice charger doing it (so its well monitored and regulated) you risk serious problems.

  142. #142
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    Yes depends on charger. If the charger is reliable and knowing Panasonic quality I think the one might go safe enough with 3A charger (if it really deliver that current). Of course it is better for the cells if you run them bit lower. Me personaly I would dare to do it, but don't have such need as I have hobby charger where I can set the current I want.

    BTW it might happen HKJ (Flashlight information) and me would get that charger from KD to test.

    Need to ask if you people are generaly interested in using such charger? It would significaly reduce charge time of tipical 4-8 cell packs (I mean the quality ones, not safe for cheapo chinese packs).

  143. #143
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    So no answer from anyone. Well, anyway, charger is on it's way to be tested.

  144. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by ledoman View Post
    Yes depends on charger. If the charger is reliable and knowing Panasonic quality I think the one might go safe enough with 3A charger (if it really deliver that current). Of course it is better for the cells if you run them bit lower. Me personaly I would dare to do it, but don't have such need as I have hobby charger where I can set the current I want.

    BTW it might happen HKJ (Flashlight information) and me would get that charger from KD to test.

    Need to ask if you people are generaly interested in using such charger? It would significaly reduce charge time of tipical 4-8 cell packs (I mean the quality ones, not safe for cheapo chinese packs).
    Sorry, I wasn't paying attention before. That 3A KD charger ( with U.S. plug ) looks interesting. Like you mentioned, very good for 6-8 cell batteries. Next time I order from KD I might get me one.

    On a side note having one of these might enable a DIY user to modify an old single or double LED lamp for "wired" in home use. I heard of people doing that although I personally just buy the typical screw-in LED Bulbs for my home lamps.

  145. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by ledoman View Post
    So no answer from anyone. Well, anyway, charger is on it's way to be tested.
    Actually, I would be very interested. Sorry, but have not been keeping up with the forum. If you have the review up already and can link to it that would be great. Thanks!!!

  146. #146
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    Charger is in the waiting queue to be tested at Flashlight information I don't have any info when it get its time slot. He has a lot of things to test all the time.

    Edit:
    Sorry, haven't been informed about test which have been already done:
    Review of Charger UT-6026C 2S 3A LiIon
    Last edited by ledoman; 07-24-2016 at 02:00 AM.

  147. #147
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    Hmm, seems that charger was an "almost, but not quite". Is the manufacturer interested in fixing the issues?

    -Garry
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  148. #148
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    Thanks ledoman! So, as with garry, "almost, but not quite"? Or is it more like no dealbreaker, might as well get it because nothing is better sort of deal? I am most likely going to pick up some of those Kaidomain batteries so might as well get the charger.

  149. #149
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    KD is informed about voltage being to high and the had some contact with manufacturer, but the result is still unknown to me. I doubt they would implement cut-off easily as there should be some additional logic added.

    Anyone buying this charger should check voltage unloaded. Mine sample has 8.51V so bit better. Still to high, but just on the edge of battery limits 4.25V per cell. This would just shorten cells lifetime a bit.

    Of course if you watch and remove battery pack when green turns on voltage of the pack might came out just perfectly.

  150. #150
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    Thanks ledoman, guess I can wait just a bit longer then...not crazy about that but what the hey.

  151. #151
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    Suggestion Needed; RCR123a / 16340's batteries

    I have a couple mini-torches that use the RCR123a size batteries ( 16340 ). I've got two 650mAh Olight batteries and they seem to do okay but I'm wondering if there is a cell out there with more capacity. I have a new torch on order that should be here in about 7 days. I was thinking about buying a couple of the efest IMR 850's but when it comes to 16340 cells almost all are vastly over-rated. Anyone have the low-down on which one at the moment is rated the best? I don't see any rechargeable made by Panasonic.

  152. #152
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    Google search under budgetlightforum. Those guys stop at nothing to get every little detail out of about every use able battery made.

    Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk

  153. #153
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    Cat, see this list: Battery test-review small individual tests and comparator Battery test-review 18650 comparator

    Probably the most comprehensive list out there. At that size of battery there can't be much energy stored and the differencies even for better brands are not so big.

  154. #154
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    Yep 18650 seems like the sweet spot but I do like the smaller pocketable cr123/14500/18350 torches. I use the Olight rcr123 as well but it's on the charger a lot.

  155. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by ledoman View Post
    Cat, see this list: Battery test-review small individual tests and comparator Battery test-review 18650 comparator

    Probably the most comprehensive list out there. At that size of battery there can't be much energy stored and the differencies even for better brands are not so big.
    Thanks ledo. Took a while for me to go through the list to find something better than the Olight's. Really though, when it comes to 16340's there is not a lot of differences so you really have to look at several different parameters.

    Basically I was judging by the discharge times between 0.5 and 1A. With cells this small you really don't want to use too much current or else the batteries will poop real quick. Almost all of the 16340's are Chinese made. The best of the lot I saw in the 16340 category were the Windfire ( IMR ) and the Trustfire TF16340 "black with fire ", ( note; 18350's were in the review mix as well but those won't fit my 16340 torch unfortunately ) Anyway the Trustfires look to get about 8 more minutes of runtime in my target current range. I figure that's worth paying a couple extra dollars for.

    Damn.......just got thinking...the new torch on order is slightly larger than my Olight S1 torch. I'm now wondering if it might actually be able to use an 18350. ...Well, if it can, good for me...I'll order some of those too. When it comes I'll look at it to see if it has some extra room. The Olight S1 is tight as a drum, no extra room on the sides.
    Last edited by Cat-man-do; 08-15-2016 at 04:10 AM.

  156. #156
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    Yes 18350 can give you noticeably more juice than 16340. 2mm more diameter would make difference.
    Actualy I own TF16340 and they are pretty good. I use them very seldom, but it always sits in my backpack as 2nd backup Romisen RC6-II NW zoomie even on daytime trips.
    Just warning: those batteries might be very old stock. I doubt they are still in production.

  157. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by ledoman View Post
    Yes 18350 can give you noticeably more juice than 16340. 2mm more diameter would make difference.
    Actualy I own TF16340 and they are pretty good. I use them very seldom, but it always sits in my backpack as 2nd backup Romisen RC6-II NW zoomie even on daytime trips.
    Just warning: those batteries might be very old stock. I doubt they are still in production.
    Oh they're still out there. I placed an order for a couple just before my last post. Actually I already have a couple of them kicking around somewhere but they have to at be 5-6 yrs old.

    The new 16340 torch is an Olight S1 clone that I'm buying from Gearbest. Its slightly bigger than the S1. I ordered it with the highest rated driver but it has several useable modes. One of those modes is about 150 lumen and that should work well for back-up purposes. Supposedly it has an 800 mode but ( lol ) if I use that the battery will be done in 10 minutes. I also ordered another 18650 Convoy torch. This one with a warmer emitter than my previous one. Yeps...I's a torch junkie too.

  158. #158
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    I'm in need of a new charger?
    Any recommendations am i missing anything?
    Presently i'm thinking of the below.
    Key requirement is I want something to tell me Battery Voltage and Capacity quickly and save using the volt meter.

    NiteCore: Digicharger D4
    Opus: BT-C3100
    XTAR: VP4
    or wait for XTAR DRAGON VP4 Plus (although can't find much info on this)

    Or even a cheap hobby charger
    Accucell 6

  159. #159
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    If you are talking about charging single cells I can tell only for BT-C3100 from your list. I'm pretty satisfied with it and I'm using it very often. Not the best accuracy on discharge capacity (readings are bit to high) and you need to take care about fans bearings (keep noise down). Otherwise it is very good. I've got version 2.2. There is also 2.3 out there. Have few other chargers, but use BT most of the time.

    Hobby chargers are even better (not all of them!) and more versalite, but you need to have separate charging bay and/or some DIY cabling setup in order to charge/discharge single cells.

  160. #160
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    Either Gearbest or BANGGOOD has a really good sale on chargers. $21 for an Xtar vc4. Xtar is prolly one of the best chargers. I have an Opus like ledoman and that fan is freakin
    Annoying. I just recieved a multimeter so I will be cheching accuracy of my chargers. I have a few single cell chargers which is very convenient when traveling.

  161. #161
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    Yes that Opus fan is loud but you can lubricate the shaft and it become acceptable. There is thread at BLF how to do it. I've used oil for sewing machines and it is Ok now.

  162. #162
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    Well I have purchased a Xtar vc4.

    However i since been looking at hobby chargers and found that you can flash firmware on a Imax B6 which are cheap and parallel charge. I really don't need it but i like the idea.
    https://github.com/stawel/cheali-charger

  163. #163
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    I got a note from Hunk Lee that they are now shipping orders in Canada from their Mississauga warehouse, so 7 days on batteries instead of slow boat from China.

  164. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do View Post
    Thanks ledo. Took a while for me to go through the list to find something better than the Olight's. Really though, when it comes to 16340's there is not a lot of differences so you really have to look at several different parameters.

    Basically I was judging by the discharge times between 0.5 and 1A. With cells this small you really don't want to use too much current or else the batteries will poop real quick. Almost all of the 16340's are Chinese made. The best of the lot I saw in the 16340 category were the Windfire ( IMR ) and the Trustfire TF16340 "black with fire ", ( note; 18350's were in the review mix as well but those won't fit my 16340 torch unfortunately ) Anyway the Trustfires look to get about 8 more minutes of runtime in my target current range. I figure that's worth paying a couple extra dollars for.

    Damn.......just got thinking...the new torch on order is slightly larger than my Olight S1 torch. I'm now wondering if it might actually be able to use an 18350. ...Well, if it can, good for me...I'll order some of those too. When it comes I'll look at it to see if it has some extra room. The Olight S1 is tight as a drum, no extra room on the sides.
    Just some feedback on what I said above ^.. Well I've had the Gearbest S1 clone a couple weeks now. When I got my order in for the Trustfire "Black with fire" 16340's I couldn't wait to try them out in the S1 clone. To my utter surprise, the TF's won't work inside the S1 clone.
    They fit inside the torch, no problem. They just don't work and I have no idea why. I can put them inside my Olight S1 and while they are a tight fit, they work fine. The slightly smaller Olight batteries work fine in the S1 clone, go figure. Sometimes stuff like this makes you want to > .

  165. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do View Post
    To my utter surprise, the TF's won't work inside the S1 clone.
    They fit inside the torch, no problem. They just don't work and I have no idea why.
    What current is consumed by your light? There was old story with TrustFire cells, when (after initial good batch) manufacturer decided to cut the cost, and started to put protection PCB with part of components missed. Result was, the battery charged & seemed fine, but attempt to use it with high-current load (e.g., powerful flashlight) triggered the protection...

  166. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Archie- View Post
    What current is consumed by your light? There was old story with TrustFire cells, when (after initial good batch) manufacturer decided to cut the cost, and started to put protection PCB with part of components missed. Result was, the battery charged & seemed fine, but attempt to use it with high-current load (e.g., powerful flashlight) triggered the protection...
    I would of thought the same thing but when I put the TF's into the real S1 and use the highest mode ( 500 lumen ) it works fine. It might have something to do with the driver inside the clone and how it senses voltage. Perhaps it is sensing a higher voltage with the TF's and shutting down...(?)...just don't know at this point. I'll partially drain one of the TF's to test that theory again because I remember putting a TF into the clone and having seem to work when on the lowest mode. When I changed modes to the upper levels it turned off. Possible both issues are in play. The clone I know draws more power that the original because it is using brighter modes. At least I can be glad the clone works with the Olight cells but the TF's have a slighter larger capacity.

    ( edit : hmmm....could be the circuit in the clone is not controlling current surge and tripping the protection in the TF's. Possible the protection in the TF's themselves are using shoddy parts and are too sensitive to surge. ) I might try removing protection from a TF cell to test the theory. )

  167. #167
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    I've seen this before, it's the protection tripping. That's why I never buy a battery with fire in the name. Always suck.

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  168. #168
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    Cat, try the battery in the flashlight without rear cap and make contact with some metal.
    Actualy I don't know how your S1 clone looks. I'm speculating the springs in the torch might bent and make short or close driver cicuit.
    And have you have ever seen your S1 clone worrking? Just asking to evaluate all possibilities.

  169. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by ledoman View Post
    Cat, try the battery in the flashlight without rear cap and make contact with some metal.
    Actualy I don't know how your S1 clone looks. I'm speculating the springs in the torch might bent and make short or close driver cicuit.
    And have you have ever seen your S1 clone working? Just asking to evaluate all possibilities.
    No, I tried all that. The Clone works just not with the SF batteries. The SF batteries work, just not in the clone..very strange. My guess is that the Clone driver is producing a surge current ( spike ) that the protection on the SF cells can't handle.

    I've a link for some "unprotected" Surefire cells. I might buy a couple of those and see what happens.

    Yeah, I tried taking the back off and making contact with just metal. Works for the Olight battery, not the TF's. Since the TF's DO work in the Olight S1 and the Olight batteries work in the S1 clone....it is quite baffling.

  170. #170
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    Try both lights with multimeter inline when back is off. You might spot the current spike if it is there. If your DMM has MAX function it might capture it.

    Another thing, I would try to simulate connection with thinner wires if you have space to do it and/or have access to the driver spring. Very thin/long wires should reduce current and thus starting spike. Or put some resistor inline.

    Also, do you need to reset battery circuit with the charger each time you put it into clone S1? With many protection circuits this is the case.

  171. #171
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    I'm trying to source some compatible leads for my battery pack Solarstorm BC-04
    I can find Y splitters
    But no extension cables with the screw connectors.

  172. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by steviemidnight View Post
    I'm trying to source some compatible leads for my battery pack Solarstorm BC-04
    I can find Y splitters
    But no extension cables with the screw connectors.
    While I have no problem using the solarstorm connectors with a standard MS type connector it is obviously not the perfect solution. In your case I would recommend either converting the SStorm lamps to MS connectors..OR...find an old Sstorm connector, DIY connect it with a MS type connector and make your own adapter. After you have the adapter you can use whatever MS type battery or MS "Y" cable/extension cable you want. ( Real shame someone doesn't market an adapter for the Sstorm plugs )

  173. #173
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    Where can i get good chargers for 8.4v battery packs? Some chargers output are 10v. Rating on sticker is 8.4v but puts out 9-10v. This will surely shorten batt life.

  174. #174
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    9-10V can be dangerous, not only shorten battery life. It depends if the battery pack has good protection. Anway, it is not goot to use such charger unless you have some monitoring equipment.

    I'm working with KD to provide good charger with cut-off feature, but process is pretty slow. I've tried to arrange 2.5A charger but the last solution is only (but real) 1.8A. No cut-off feature jet. I got feeling not many manufacturers can provide good quality for reasonable price (acceptable by the market). And the quantities they demand are pretty high ie. in thousands. :/

    If you need charger soon and you are in the US then some other guy might give you good advise.

  175. #175
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    You can get good 2A chargers from www.ituolights.com. not sure if there are any other companies that make 2A chargers.

    Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk

  176. #176
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    Thank you sir tigris99. Here is what kd offered for the charger.

    http://www.kaidomain.com/p/S024352.L...V-240V-US-Plug

  177. #177
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    Thank you for the reply sir. i purchased the battery from kd 6,800mah panasonic cells. They also offered this charger but i havent purchased it yet. I dont know if its good.

    http://www.kaidomain.com/p/S024352.L...V-240V-US-Plug

  178. #178
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    I have that KD charger on the way to me and will report on it. Expect it to be awhile before I get it though.

    -Garry
    "My Bike Lights" Thread on BLF teardowns, measurements, and beamshots. Moving my photos, PM or post up if you can't see them.

  179. #179
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    Thank you sir Garry. Ill look forward to your charger report. if its a good one then ill be ordering also. Thanks again.

  180. #180
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    I have the identical charger which came with my Nightfighter BT21. It works so far and hasn't burnt the house down (YET!)

  181. #181
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    You mean identical look or it is same under the hood?

    What is the output voltage unloaded? It can be important info. Do you possibly know if it has cut-off feature or it charges (almost) endlesly like most other chargers. Status light would not telling that. You would need to watch current at very last stage of the charging process.

  182. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by ledoman View Post
    You mean identical look or it is same under the hood?

    What is the output voltage unloaded? It can be important info. Do you possibly know if it has cut-off feature or it charges (almost) endlesly like most other chargers. Status light would not telling that. You would need to watch current at very last stage of the charging process.
    Yes, looks identical. I've got a battery pack on charge at the moment but I'll check the output voltage when finished and the voltage in the pack.

    How do I check the current at the last stage of the charging process?

    EDIT: Actually I just noticed they are not identical looks-wise. My charger has three grooves in the case lid whereas the KD one does not. Obviously mine is an uprated version!

  183. #183
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    To watch the current you need to put measurment equipment inline between charger and battery pack. I'm using simple LED Digital Voltmeter Voltage Indicator Ammeter 0 - 30V 10A SH | eBay and two CCTV connectors. Or you can use DMM with some way to make good inline connection (thick and short cables gives you more accurate readings). It doesn't matter if you insert DMM between positive or negative poles. Both way you would measure the current flow.
    How to measure current wit DMM - simple explanation but you can google out much more.

  184. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by ledoman View Post
    To watch the current you need to put measurment equipment inline between charger and battery pack. I'm using simple LED Digital Voltmeter Voltage Indicator Ammeter 0 - 30V 10A SH | eBay and two CCTV connectors. Or you can use DMM with some way to make good inline connection (thick and short cables gives you more accurate readings). It doesn't matter if you insert DMM between positive or negative poles. Both way you would measure the current flow.
    How to measure current wit DMM - simple explanation but you can google out much more.
    I thought that's how you did it but thanks for the info ledoman.

    EDIT: I just tested the charger and it comes out at 8.38V. The pack fully charged is 8.25V. I can't check the current because my DMM only goes up to 200mA. A good excuse to order a new DMM!

  185. #185
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    You can connect your DMM when indicator LED is changed to green (i.e., near end of charge): actual current should be very low at that time...

  186. #186
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    Or zero if cut-off feature is implemented. But yes it should be lower than 200mA. Normaly at hobby chargers cut-off kicks in at 1/10 of starting current.

  187. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by ledoman View Post
    Or zero if cut-off feature is implemented. But yes it should be lower than 200mA. Normaly at hobby chargers cut-off kicks in at 1/10 of starting current.
    That might explain something then. I was getting a zero reading on the DMM and assumed it wasn't reading properly due to the 200mA limit. Does that indicate that my charger is cutting off correctly at the end of charge then?

  188. #188
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    Maybe, but you need to catch that moment to prove it. Or watch voltage which may drop somewhat when green light turns on (or somewhere near that time).

  189. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by ledoman View Post
    To watch the current you need to put 9measurment equipment inline between charger and battery pack. I'm using simple LED Digital Voltmeter Voltage Indicator Ammeter 0 - 30V 10A SH | eBay and two CCTV connectors. Or you can use DMM with some way to make good inline connection (thick and short cables gives you more accurate readings). It doesn't matter if you insert DMM between positive or negative poles. Both way you would measure the current flow.
    How to measure current wit DMM - simple explanation but you can google out much more.

    Sir ledoman if you dont mind sharing pics of the inline voltage monitor? Im trying to look for connectors to do it. thank you.

  190. #190
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    This thread may help. The setup needs wired differently for monitoring chargers. Contraption to Measure Current Pulled from Bike Light Battery Packs - REVISED - See Post #12 | BudgetLightForum.com

    -Garry
    "My Bike Lights" Thread on BLF teardowns, measurements, and beamshots. Moving my photos, PM or post up if you can't see them.

  191. #191
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    kikoy, I hope Garry's pictures are good enough. If not I can try to make some.

  192. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by garrybunk View Post
    This thread may help. The setup needs wired differently for monitoring chargers. Contraption to Measure Current Pulled from Bike Light Battery Packs - REVISED - See Post #12 | BudgetLightForum.com

    -Garry
    Thanks for that link Garry, I've just ordered the parts from eBay to replicate your setup. Very useful!!

  193. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by garrybunk View Post
    I have that KD charger on the way to me and will report on it. Expect it to be awhile before I get it though.

    -Garry
    Holy cow! Just checked on status of my order (placed 10/20/2016, stated as shipped by KD on 10/23/2016) and it's out for deilvery today! That was fast for KD! Now KD did give me a fake tracking # which never gave a status. I was logging into my account to see if there was a new tracking number and track it (and yes, there was a new tracking number). Not sure why they do this with the fake tracking number. Perhaps it's a placeholder, but still not a good business practice.

    -Garry
    "My Bike Lights" Thread on BLF teardowns, measurements, and beamshots. Moving my photos, PM or post up if you can't see them.

  194. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by garrybunk View Post
    Holy cow! Just checked on status of my order (placed 10/20/2016, stated as shipped by KD on 10/23/2016) and it's out for deilvery today! That was fast for KD! Now KD did give me a fake tracking # which never gave a status. I was logging into my account to see if there was a new tracking number and track it (and yes, there was a new tracking number). Not sure why they do this with the fake tracking number. Perhaps it's a placeholder, but still not a good business practice.

    -Garry
    I've got three orders pending delivery from KD and none of the tracking numbers seem to be valid which is very frustrating. First order was for a battery pack on 12th October. Order confirmation email, no despatch email but Order Summary shows status as Shipped. I'm in the UK.

    GearBest managed to get a YinDing light delivered last week that I ordered on the same day.

    Cue Diana Ross "I'm Still Waiting"....

  195. #195
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    Sod's Law dictates that the day after I moan about KD's tardiness the battery pack I ordered gets delivered. To add insult to injury they also included an unexpected free gift of a nice pocket-size torch as well!

  196. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by garrybunk View Post
    Holy cow! Just checked on status of my order (placed 10/20/2016, stated as shipped by KD on 10/23/2016) and it's out for deilvery today! That was fast for KD! Now KD did give me a fake tracking # which never gave a status. I was logging into my account to see if there was a new tracking number and track it (and yes, there was a new tracking number). Not sure why they do this with the fake tracking number. Perhaps it's a placeholder, but still not a good business practice.

    -Garry
    I've "spoked" with Mr. Ban about those issues which afected me too. He has explained their system automaticaly assigns HK Post tracking #. Since HK Post does not allow sending Litium batteries, they need to manualy check with another courier and assign another tracking. Even then it might happen local post office rejects sending batteries (probably when they check it). So all this make some mess about our shipments.

    KD will try to improve their system in near future, so they said.

    Hope this somewhat helps to reveal current situation. It is common in China to have shipping issues with Litium batteries (often in a waves) and sellers has to find out alternative routes to deliver those goods to us. Some are lucky and get their things fast, some not so. Uncertance is the only rule here :/

  197. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by garrybunk View Post
    I have that KD charger on the way to me and will report on it.
    -Garry
    First test of this charger on a cheap chinese pack (one I don't care about - a 2S2P pack that tested at 2,289mAh capacity at 2A discharge). No load voltage of the charger is 8.43v (good!), but the charger doesn't appear to do CC\CV charging. With the pack completely discharged it started charging at 2.11A, but the current just continuously dropped as the pack was charging. It doesn't stay at 2A very long at all. Light went green on the charger when pack was at 8.24v (possible earlier, I didn't catch it right away - not good). At 8.39v charge current was down to 0.04A, then at 8.41v current was at 0.02A. I had to shut it off as I was going to bed and didn't want to leave it running, but I have a feeling it won't cutoff and the current will just keep decreasing. So in conclusion I'd say this charger isn't worth using since it's not using a correct CC\CV charging algorithm and is not truly charging as a "2A charger".

    Note, I haven't even opened up the charger to see if there's anything unsafe about inside.

    -Garry
    "My Bike Lights" Thread on BLF teardowns, measurements, and beamshots. Moving my photos, PM or post up if you can't see them.

  198. #198
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    Thanks for that test Garry and interesting results. I have just received this actual charger included with the Nightfighter BT40S package. It is identical right down to the model number on the sticker.

    I don't tend to use these chargers anyway as I prefer to use my Turnigy Accucell-6 hobby charger which does do true CC/CV charging and you have full control over the charge rate etc.

  199. #199
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    Has anyone tested Tigris/ITUO's chargers?

    Tig, Is that US shipping?



    Quote Originally Posted by tigris99 View Post
    You can get good 2A chargers from www.ituolights.com. not sure if there are any other companies that make 2A chargers.

  200. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by garrybunk View Post
    .... No load voltage of the charger is 8.43v (good!), but the charger doesn't appear to do CC\CV charging.....
    Garry with equipment we have (and I assume you have same as I do) I got feeling it doesn't show charging curve correctly. The same situation appears to me when I've tested few other charges while for the same ones HKJ test showed good CC/CV profile and of course no cut-off.

    So I wouldn't put my word on it. The best would be to send HKJ one sample and then you can be shure. It is good that it has 8.43V output, though. So you can be shure the pack won't get overcharged.

    And about turning green at 8.24V it is actualy good for the cells if you stop charging at that point. You are only missing about top 10% capacity. Those status led light are resistor driven (I think) and can have %5 variation. I doubt they use 1% resistors anyway.

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