XPG , so now is the time to do an all in one- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    XPG , so now is the time to do an all in one

    I was gonna keep this one under my hat untill it was done but I cant keep a secret
    and I am having a meet up with deesta to discuss cool ideas for him to machine up .
    and in view of these mega cheap dx lights was wondering if it was a waste of time .

    or if there was any interest in us doing a run of these when the design is finalised.
    I am going to use this one to get it working and then get Steve to work some machining magic on it If he is up for it .

    it is pretty fugly at the moment but is only an experimental prototype to get everything in as small a case as possible

    it was going to be just a double XPG so 650 lumens on full , But then as the size is dictated by the size of the 2 18650 cells it seemed 3 leds was the obvious choice.
    so 1000 lumens on full and a better drive solution for a maxflex.








    I still need to attack it with a belt sander to lose some metal and ovalise it .
    I have not sorted out the logistics of a switch and charge socket yet and was hoping for some ideas off here

    Is there such a thing as an on off switch which is also a mom switch when it is on .

    the light on the right is a Hope Vision 4 just for size comparison

    And a Big thanks to Smudge for the battery pack to use in the R&D

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  2. #2
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    Wow!!! Nice!

    A really small and all in one package you are developing here!!

    How much will it weight when finisched?

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whitedog1
    Wow!!! Nice!

    A really small and all in one package you are developing here!!

    How much will it weight when finisched?


    As it stands at the moment on the scales with all the bits it weighs 224 grammes
    the housing on its own weighs 123 grammes .

    after its weight loss programme I estimate it should be sub 200 gms - plus a mount ?

    Run times from 2600mah cells done through Ledpro indicate
    1000ma = 1h.45m
    700ma = 2h.47m
    500ma = 3h.50m
    350ma = 5h.00m

  4. #4
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    I like it. The hardest problem might be trying to figure a way to mount it, especially with almost all helmet having different vent patterns. No problem for me though. That thing would plunk right down on my helmet with just a couple pieces of Velcro.

  5. #5
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    It's light, so it will stay on a helmet easily. I'd also propose a bar mount of QR type like this one: http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/M...?ModelID=13174 or a marwi mount, so that you can use it both on the bars and on the helmet!

    If that's the case, i'm in for one!!

  6. #6
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    Oooh, now that looks tasty Smudge did mention it to me but I didn't think you'd done so much to it!

    Should be a little beauty once it's finished. Can't wait to see it in the flesh on saturday mate. I feel we have much to discuss

  7. #7
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    Looks really cool, but I'm wondering if the batteries will stay that way ?

    I mean, li-ion don't like getting hot at all so if the housing heats up with the batt's in it wont they wear out ?

  8. #8
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    Sweet! This is why DIY is not dead Troute! Keep pushing forward...

    I don't think you'll need two switches. The maxFlex only draws a few uA when it's off so it would take a loooong time to drain the batteries. Then again it would have a fighter-plane feel to it if you had two switches... Armed (on/off) and Fire (mom)

    I've been planning to build a similar light using flat li-poly cells but I'm moving half way across the country next week and won't have machine shop access for a while. Hopefully I'll have found a place to set everything up again by the time night riding season rolls around.

    You and Steve make quite a team!
    Cheers!

  9. #9
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    Nice stuff Troutie.

    You gonna run fins all the way down?

    Am I right that the batteries are internal and you don't need them out for charging?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by znomit
    Nice stuff Troutie.

    You gonna run fins all the way down?

    Am I right that the batteries are internal and you don't need them out for charging?

    Cheers Znomit
    Not sure about the fins yet as there is a massive surface area just for 3 leds so we will have to see how it evolves with testing and making it look pretty too .

    Yep you are correct the plan is just plug in the charger when flat .


    Cat and Giant
    yes the helmet mount is a pita but it has a nice flat bottom so any mount will probably fit
    Steve could probably machine the ribs to slot on to a Marwi mount


    Tony_J_Ross

    If this gets warmer than body temperature then we have failed in our mission .
    from all my previous lights this has the most area per led now and we can add fins if needed.

    Cheers Stevel
    I have had this bouncing around in my head for a while and it is the output from the XPG that crystalised the concept .
    That and the amount of emails I have had suggesting an all in one. .

    I sort of shied away from LiPO batteries maybe from fear of the unknown and watching the videos .

  11. #11
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    thats one sweet looking light master troutie

    it makes me wonder some times what the big guns think of the diy gang
    thwang

  12. #12
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    Blimey you didnt hang around much troutie!
    I should be getting an email back from connector company tomorrow, also arranging a few samples to tied us over with.

  13. #13
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    That is awesome work, I don't think you have to worry about the cheap DX lights, they will always be in another class and well behind the cutting edge of newer LED types.

    Is the driver going to be in it's own pocket or will it be exposed to the battery compartment as it appears in the pics?

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by HuffyPuffy
    That is awesome work, I don't think you have to worry about the cheap DX lights, they will always be in another class and well behind the cutting edge of newer LED types.

    Is the driver going to be in it's own pocket or will it be exposed to the battery compartment as it appears in the pics?
    Thanks Huffy
    the Maxflex is at the moment in a little pocket as shown


    but may well migrate towards the front in the mk 2 version.
    .
    have done a little trimming and got in under 200 gms so far .




    I will have it up and running soon with 3 XPEs in for testing .


    Ta Thwang
    the big guns probably hate us just a little less than DX


    Cheers Smudge Your a star .


    oops forgot the radius on the top was done with one of these woodworking router bits
    worked a treat as long as you dont get greedy .


  15. #15
    Lets RIDE!
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    Troutie there must be off/on/momentary switches out there, since every DX torch I've seen has one. I think DX sells them separately, but of course you're looking for one of better quality and waterproof.

    JZ
    It's not about speed, it's about lack of control.

  16. #16
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    Yes please in all ways except for I don't like the fixed batterys, make it so I can just slot in and out 18650's as required, skip the charger route and I'll have 1 pretty pretty please.

    If not I'll likely go 2 x XPG torches and retire my Q5 + MC-E which is a tad heavy really.

    This same weight as the MC-E longer throw so sold on the concept but need 5hours+ runtime always on Medium ( Say 400Lumens ) atleast.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turveyd
    Yes please in all ways except for I don't like the fixed batterys, make it so I can just slot in and out 18650's as required, skip the charger route and I'll have 1 pretty pretty please.

    If not I'll likely go 2 x XPG torches and retire my Q5 + MC-E which is a tad heavy really.

    This same weight as the MC-E longer throw so sold on the concept but need 5hours+ runtime always on Medium ( Say 400Lumens ) atleast.
    There is an argument to be made for user replaceable batteries for long enduro type races. That way you don't have to worry about charging stations etc, just stick in some more pre-charged 18650's and off you go.

  18. #18
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    Yep, pull 2 x 18650 outta the rucksuck ( Like I do with my current Torches ), slap them in and keep riding.

    I think I did a 8hour night ride last summer, I'm a night owl and to hot for me in the day and ZERO people around used up most of my 18650's, I did 7hour the year before with CR123a's 45min run times and a 2hour Cree P4 on the bars mainly that was a pain.

  19. #19
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    Really really cool light and idea... what about having the two main batteries non-replaceable, and then having the ability to plug in an external pack when you need to have longer runtimes. Most of the time 3-4 hours of light is enough... but for 24 hour races when you need the extra runtime... just have a couple of extra packs that can be added when you need them.

    the only drawback that I see with this is you are carrying around the dead weight of the batteries when they are drained, but if you only use the lights for a couple of these events every year it might be worth it.

  20. #20
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    I'm with tamen00, keep the internal batteris fixed and go Exposure style with the option of a piggyback battery pack.

    If this goes into production maybe Smudge could provide the piggy backs for those that want them,could be a three man team and everything will be nice and compatible. Provide a charger perhaps?

    You're obviousely enjoying your new mill.

  21. #21
    A waste of time it is is
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    Nice work again Troutie

    but I have a question.

    It appears as though those batteries only have one pair of leads coming from them. If you leave them built in how will you wire it?
    do you split the leads and have a pair going to the driver and then a duplicate pair going to the charger port?
    How will that impact the driver that is always connected even when charging? will the charging current have any ill effect on the driver?

  22. #22
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    Cheers Stu.
    those questions have been buzzing around and I did want to ask George which will have to wait till he is back and fixex his site.

    but here is my take on it . and Hopefully some of the electronics guys can help out here.

    As Stevel has said leaving it connected should be ok as when off the current is tiny.
    I am planning on an off switch mainly for the protection against accidental switch on in a pocket or bag.

    The charging current should not hurt the driver even if still connected as it is the same voltage as the battery provides and also the back up external battery is the same as connecting a charger .
    But will this cause a problem with the external pack trying to charge the internal ?????


    Yetty
    yes I am anjoying the new mill lots and the garage is waist deep in chips

    We have been an unofficial 3 man team for a while now .
    batteries fixed but easily changable if they become defunct batteries.

  23. #23
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    You will require some sort of switch so that you can remove then add power in order to get into the driver UI menu.

  24. #24
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    Not used it myself, but Im sure that there is a 'lock' mode in the ..Flex ui.

    Looking good Mr Trout!!!!!!

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by bumphumper
    Not used it myself, but Im sure that there is a 'lock' mode in the ..Flex ui.

    Looking good Mr Trout!!!!!!



    Cheers Bumphumper I have used that and forgot all about it

  26. #26
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    Idea for charge/piggyback. not much time, late for work...

    Untitled.jpg

    diode stops piggyback cells charging internal pack.

  27. #27
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    Troutie, I'm with Turveyed on this issue. I really like the idea of having the batteries loose and accessible for quick change out. Being able to switch out a couple of the new Ultrafire 3000mah batteries would be nice. I really don't see an advantage to having the batteries sealed up inside the light...even if there is a plug for an external battery input. That just means that half way into your ride you might have to fiddle with mounting a battery pack or worse, running a wire into your camelback for the battery. I vote to keep it wireless and user friendly. Of course if you can do both with out much problem that I vote that instead.

  28. #28

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    I'll add my vote for the removable cells. I machined up this housing for a three luxeon torch a few years ago. It was powered by 6, 2400ah AA NiMih cells that were charged via a socket in the end cap. If you have the spare cells, I found that it would be far easier to swap them out on the go.
    I decided to resurrect the housing for a bike light a while ago, but that was just prior to me losing access to a lathe .I've only just today managed to bore the housing larger to accept the 4, 18650's. With any luck I may get a chance to experiment with diy annodising this weekend.
    I would love to run two parallel xp-e triples, but I've already bought the xr-e's, Ledil rocket lense and Fatman driver, and it would be hard to explain to the Minister of Finance
    Attached Images Attached Images

  29. #29
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    troutie a diode in the right place will stop the battery trying to charge the other up. Would be best have a 3 way connector too

  30. #30
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    Ok at the moment it is going to be fixed batteries but I do not count removables out it is just a different housing and steve can magic one of them up I am sure .
    I am thinking that the replaceable ones will be longer .
    as we are looking at making this as a diy housing then if we can design in fixed or changeable then it may win out both ways .

    also the design is morphing a little as it made sense to put the maxflex at the front .
    where it can do the most good.




  31. #31
    Go faster!
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    look very nice right now. nice work

  32. #32
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    WOW Troutie !! Great looking light!

    and a lot of output in this small package with the XPG'S!!

  33. #33
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    Stunning light Chris!
    I bet the likes of Cateye and and Exposure are shaking in their boots!

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by troutie-mtb
    Okay, looking at this picture it just came to me...The perfect name for this light...

    "The Remington Laser"...a take off on the Remington electric razor... ...okay...so maybe not... ..

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do
    Okay, looking at this picture it just came to me...The perfect name for this light...

    "The Remington Laser"...a take off on the Remington electric razor... ...okay...so maybe not... ..
    That's very funny now looking at the image it brings back those memories.........

  36. #36
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    I don't think heat is going to be an issue. The surface is so much bigger then with lights with a remote battery pack.

    Would be also a nice light for commuting.

  37. #37
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    ... and if we just ... Flinking Blip it works

    Whoo whoo well chuffed .

    Met up with Deesta yesterday as he was visiting future inlaws so we went out for a bit of a ride . and to have a chat about doing some more housings .
    we are going to work together on this one and hopefully when he gets home there will be some cad drawing and ideas passing between us .

    As we are wanting to get this ready for when the XPG is released do we have anyone interested in having one of these little beautys when Steve has magic machined some
    and we have ironed out the bugs .
    We are thinking of doing them as a full kit ready to build or a housing just like the Altair and Troutlight..
    Smudge the battery has located some mighty fine little connectors and some samples are on the way .

    If you are interested please Contact Steve (deesta ) or me ( troutie ) via PM or Email



    I would imagine the housings ( suppose it is now called the Razer light ) Cheers Cat.
    will be the same size but may look quite a bit different and will lose a bit of weight and may grow some small fins .
    as I have just done a still air test with an ambient temp of 24 degrees C and even with the huge ammount of bare casing it still tripped in 15 minutes sat on the desk .
    but hung outside in a gentle breeze and it is still there doing a runtime test with new charged batteries and the maxflex set at 700 ma with the 3 XPEs in .








    and today I went about shoehorning all the bits in to the mk 2 version of the all in one
    and while doing so found quite a few mods that need doing as it was quite difficult doing the build.
    Just a few piccys next.





    pic next to a ultrafire P7 torch


    I have gone the low tech way with a 3 way switch so it is on / off / and charge .
    but by the time we have a working XP-G model it will also have a piggy back battery option .and probable wont need the 3 way switch.

    Total weight at the moment is 214 grammes fully working with batteries installed.
    but I fully expect it to be sub 200 gms the CNC version.

    I have also just used switches I had in the spares bin so they will alter also.
    Last edited by troutie-mtb; 05-31-2009 at 10:20 AM.

  38. #38
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    update on the runtime just run it for 2hours 35 mins @ 700 ma before the light cut out
    so with a bit of running on low a good ride is doable.

  39. #39
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    How about making the bottom of the shell from plastic, it could save a few grams? I doubt it is necessary for heatsinking anyway since the top half has a good deal of material.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by troutie-mtb
    update on the runtime just run it for 2hours 35 mins @ 700 ma before the light cut out
    so with a bit of running on low a good ride is doable.
    I take it you did this test with XP-E's. If so was it 2.5hrs without diminished light or 2hr full output with the last half hour diminished? Will it be possible to run the Khatod 20mm aspherics on this build or is it limited to the square optics you are showing? On your "Spider eyes" thread you mentioned you had some tight square optics that you were going to show beam shots of but never did. I would love to see how they compared to the Khatod 20mm aspherics. I noticed that in one of the photos that you put slots in the housing to allow a piece of Velcro strapping to be used..Good show!

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by HuffyPuffy
    How about making the bottom of the shell from plastic, it could save a few grams? I doubt it is necessary for heatsinking anyway since the top half has a good deal of material.

    I doubt it would gain anything and the cost for the plastic bit would be too much
    besides nice machined aluminium anodised looks good.
    weightwise there is a lot of spare metal that steve can get rid of when he machines them .

    Cat
    yes this was done with XPEs and it was 2.5 hrs at the full 700ma no dimming
    untill the 6 volt cutout on the battery protection circuit killed it .

    charged it back up and now running it on low been going 4 hours so far.

    no it is designed for the 10 mm square optics to keep the size down

    Yes slots for straps and holes tapped for barmount too

    beamshots are a bit of a problem due to the lack of long dark nights . but I will try

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by troutie-mtb
    ...charged it back up and now running it on low been going 4 hours so far.....Yes slots for straps and holes tapped for barmount too ....
    Low?.. ..it has a low mode? I thought...uh..nevermind, how bright is the low mode ( what current does it run? ) and what is the expected lumen output on low with the XP-G's ?
    Oh, holes for barmount too..Sweet!

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by HuffyPuffy
    How about making the bottom of the shell from plastic, it could save a few grams? I doubt it is necessary for heatsinking anyway since the top half has a good deal of material.
    The plastic wouldn't be quite as much as the ally but it would take roughly the same time to machine so there would be no real gain. And for the sake of a few extra grams, the ally would be much stronger

  44. #44
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    I really like the idea of an all in one, but I just got my hands on a niterider mini-newt USB and was amazed by how light it was with the battery pack which appears to be a 2x18650 setup (not so amazed by the output, but it is workable with a good bar light). The light head in that case is just a single LED with minimal heatsinking and a plastic case, but the weight was impressive (not that I really care considering how much junk I lug around with me), and it is not mine anyway. Though it got me thinking about the reasoning for a all in one light. It seems to make more sense on the bars than the helmet. I am not trying to criticize, but this one seems like it has a bit too much bulk to contain the batteries which *may* make the light seem less balanced on a helmet (where with an external pack one can mount it in various locations). Though I could care less about weight on the bike in most cases, but the helmet is another matter, that needs to feel light and balanced. I really like the other Troutie creations and think the 6x xpe would be an ideal helmet light. IMHO the best helmet light would be a small efficient light head with an equally efficient battery design.

  45. #45
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    troutie,
    I replied on CPF - depending on final price etc I am interested in one of these

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by stevemorg
    troutie,
    I replied on CPF - depending on final price etc I am interested in one of these

    Sorry steve yes I will keep you informed as it progresses .


    Cat You seem suprised about the low level .

    It is using a Maxflex so has all the bell and whistles .
    I tested it on duo mode and the low lasted 11 hours 15 minutes .
    Cant say at the moment what current is being used on level 2 unless someone knows the current tables for the maxflex.


    Huffy
    I welcome any comments they all help the progress .
    just had a look at the minewt usb and all up it weighs 175 grammes which is pretty good
    but 110 lumens .
    I am sure this one when Steve has done the biz will shed a load of weight .
    I have the wall thicknesses at over 2 mm . and a load of excess metal in other places .
    2 18650s weigh 101 gms .

    This is bar mountable helmet mountable and a damn good torch to boot .
    not to mention a hand warmer if needed.

  47. #47
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    I had not realized that the mini-newt was that heavy, it seemed very light (it was usefully bright, but not bright enough for my preference). I have not weighed my helmet, but it is easily under 400grams which is why I like the small lighthead with connected battery idea more than the all in one, since I can keep the battery in a more balanced spot or in my pack. Should also be able to use more LED's that way This is just my opinion and I don't race which seems to be the target market for this. Simplicity is probably paramount in a race situation and you can't get much better than to have it all in one.

    I like that with the new design, the cells are really well protected in the aluminum shell. In the event of a spill, the cells are not going to be crushed or damaged (which would not be good if they were strapped to the helmet).

  48. #48
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    still plugging away at this one

    Still having a go at an all in one light Smudge gave me a sample Li PO battery at the weekend 7.2 volt 880mah pack and it is so light and small I thought about the all in one .

    so here is yet another attempted prototype this time using only 2 XPs and the Tina2 optic .




    there is room inside for another battery of the same size so that would up the runtime nicely
    and the weight at the moment is a whacking 112 grammes

    it still needs a lid yet and some fine tuning but walking the dog today and it seems to be a nice light
    I put 1 xpe and 1 xpg in there and now wish I had used 2 xpes as I think the xpg spoils the beam with the extra flood .



    the beam shot I have also added it to the fun beamshot thread to compare it with the others it seems like less is more with a better optic .and I am prefering the XPEs over the XPGs even more now .
    Last edited by troutie-mtb; 03-22-2010 at 02:58 PM.

  49. #49
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    That looks well neat Troutie, I'll build you bigger capacity battery later this week for you trial with
    All in one helmet light is nearly there

  50. #50
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    Another Troutie masterpiece in the works I see!

    One problem we have here in Canada is loss of battery power due to cold when we ride in the winter, even with Lithium cells. An all-in-one design like this would keep the batteries warm and the power flowing nicely even on the coldest nights. (we see -30C sometimes here in Toronto).

    But puhleeeeeeeeeeeeze, could you design in an O-Ring groove so the front can be properly waterproofed? Silicone seal is not really an elegant solution and makes it hard to swap out or upgrade the optics/LEDs in the future. Something DIY guys have a tendency to do... :-)

    Cheers, CC

  51. #51
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    nice light - great work!
    missed how many lumens on high?
    would you sell a kit?
    It is possible for rice to absorb other odors in storage. Or could be the quality of water in it was prepared. Mahatma Rice

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldassracer
    nice light - great work!
    missed how many lumens on high?
    would you sell a kit?

    Yes when I have ironed out the fine detail and begged the machine shop to make a few

    Smudge made me up a 14.8 volt LI PO pack and the MK 2 proto is around 140 grammes .but needs a mount and a lid at the moment .

    put in XPEs and the lumen count will be around 500
    or 700 for the XPGs

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