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  1. #1

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    Turn out the lights, Irene.

    FROM San Fran Chronicle; Link to Article

    A lifelong Republican's long winter
    - Joan Ryan
    Thursday, November 24, 2005

    As those who follow this column know, my father and I inhabit opposite ends of the political spectrum. I have found my geographic and ideological home in the liberal Bay Area. He is a lifelong Republican who loved Spiro Agnew and was not among the early waves of supporters for civil rights and women's rights (he came around).

    He is one of those hardscrabble men from the Irish parishes of the Bronx who served in Korea, supported a wife and six children on his own sweat, never got a handout and never sought one. To him, Democrats were the ivory-tower elites who took increasing chunks of his paycheck to support the lazy and the irresponsible.

    I wrote two columns last year about his views of President Bush. My father has been something of a political touchstone for me, providing a glimpse of the country beyond the rainbow flags and peace marches of San Francisco, or at least of those parts populated by churchgoing, middle-class conservatives.

    In the summer of 2004, to my great surprise, he was so disillusioned with how Bush had run up the federal debt and mismanaged the Iraq war that he said he would not be voting Republican for the first time in his life.

    Three months later, I wrote a follow-up. He had decided to vote for Bush after all.

    "It's terrible that in this country of so many good people,'' my father had explained, "how an election can come down to the lesser of two evils. You have to vote this time for who will do the least harm. Not the most good, but the least harm."

    I won't be with my family in Florida for Thanksgiving this year. I will miss my father serving up his political views along with the turkey and creamed onions. So I caught up with him by phone the other day as he was heading out to Mass. I asked what he was thinking about Bush now, a year after his re-election.

    He regrets changing his mind about voting for him, he said.

    "The guy's stupid," he said. "Such a disappointment. The worst administration I've ever seen. He just sounds confused. He doesn't sound like he knows what the hell he's doing."

    As we spoke, his voice rose in volume and intensity in that way it did whenever one of us kids did something particularly moronic. Like, for example, when my sister and I wanted to find out if kitchen scissors could cut a pearl in half and sent the entire strand bouncing like tiny rubber balls across my parents' bedroom floor.

    "I don't think people, myself included, were clear on how good (Bill) Clinton was with the money,'' he said. "Why wouldn't the Republicans keep going with that? Instead we got tax cuts and the war in Iraq. Who's going to pay for all that? It's just irresponsible. I never thought (Bush) was the brightest guy in the world, but to go from a $300 billion surplus to a $500 billion deficit, or whatever it is, that's just stupid.''

    He doesn't blame Bush for believing Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction, but he says the mismanagement in the aftermath of the invasion is mind-boggling. Almost 2,100 Americans have been killed and more than 15,000 seriously wounded in Iraq. And now my father and the rest of the family have a personal stake in the war: His grandson, my sister Barbara's son, is a Marine serving near Fallujah.

    "If something happens to him, what will it be for?" my father asked. "(Bush) thought we'd go in and -- voila! -- we'd get democracy. If he just read a book about the United States trying to get its democracy, he'd know it just doesn't happen overnight.''

    Hurricane Katrina sealed the deal for my father. As someone who has weathered many hurricanes in Florida, he watched the president's response to the devastation with increasing horror and bafflement.

    "This guy's slow, and he's dimwitted,'' he said. "He said, 'I'm going to let Louisiana take care of itself.' You got that woman governor who doesn't know her ass from third base. You got his friend at the head of FEMA and the mayor of New Orleans who didn't know anything. You had Larry, Moe and Curly in there, and he's just waiting.

    "And then he goes with that woman for the Supreme Court (Harriet Miers). 'I know in my heart she's a good person' -- what the hell does that got to do with it? That's just stupid. That's just plain dumb. It seems like with Bush lately, whatever he touches turns to crap. And now we're saddled with this guy for three more years. The only thing you can do is to get the Republicans out of Congress next year.''

    I wanted to make sure I had heard him correctly.

    "I never thought I'd say this, but I wouldn't vote for any Republican, even from Florida," he said. "We got to get the Republicans out and the Democrats in. We got to make sure they control Congress so Bush can't do whatever the hell he wants. You got to get the Democrats in there to knock his brains out so he'll just be a token figurehead.''

    He said that in retrospect he should have thought about last year's election in a different way. He said he should have considered that a vote for John Kerry, whom he strongly disliked, was a vote not for an individual but for a Democratic administration. We needed a Democratic administration, he said, to keep in check a Republican Congress.

    He said he had to hang up. He was going to be late for Mass. I asked if he would be offering up prayers for Bush's wisdom.

    "I believe in the power of prayer,'' he said. "But it can only do so much.''

  2. #2

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    Perhaps Bush sinks in opinion polls, but Democrats offer no alternatives

  3. #3
    the cool nerd
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    Once again Frankie demonstrates that he is only able to parrot someone else's talking points..


    too much turkey...must take a nap....

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by sportsman
    Once again Frankie demonstrates that he is only able to parrot someone else's talking points..
    i think the word your looking for is...

    pastiche \pas-TEESH; pahs-\, noun:
    1. A work of art that imitates the style of some previous work.
    2. A musical, literary, or artistic composition consisting of selections from various works.
    3. A hodgepodge; an incongruous combination of different styles and ingredients.

  5. #5

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    Speaking of contributing. Great idea on the subject sportsman.

  6. #6
    Who are the brain police?
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    Its funny when side A screws up sooooo darn bad that they look to side B for solutions, but side A screwed up so badly that solutions are not to be had in the short term.. so supporters of side A see this whole deal as an issue with side B's fault. Very bad logic here folks.

    Wake up! These accusations are just as dumb as they seem to be. Let me summ this up.. take responsibility. Side A F*cked up and it is your fault if you are side A or support side A. Case closed.

    -Hope you've enjoyed the holiday. God bless you and yours.
    The Who - Glittering Girl
    Ween - The Grobe
    Yellowman - Strong Me Strong
    all your base are belong to us

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Locoman
    Its funny when side A screws up sooooo darn bad that they look to side B for solutions, but side A screwed up so badly that solutions are not to be had in the short term.. so supporters of side A see this whole deal as an issue with side B's fault. Very bad logic here folks.

    Wake up! These accusations are just as dumb as they seem to be. Let me summ this up.. take responsibility. Side A F*cked up and it is your fault if you are side A or support side A. Case closed.

    -Hope you've enjoyed the holiday. God bless you and yours.
    That's erroneous, beauracracy stops the wheels from turning, and so to surround yourself with like minded individuals was strategic. The right made their move and was prepared to make sacrifices.(*) The left has been a heretic on the sidelines since the start.

    (I remember the start of this war the left said we would never take the ground, and the casualties were projected at least ten times the actual ammount, yet our troops marched in any way)

    This is static and is meaningless to constantly criticize.
    By the quoted above logic, If the left had a better idea they had their chance during their administration.

    However, the left and the right are there to complimant each other, its not suppossed to be a divisive measure. Many of you extreme leftist seem to forget this. The right has remembered it all to well, hence the result.

    In the end, we're all in this together the difference now there is work to be done. We have already commited ourselves, to late for the blame game.
    Still with that said take it with a grain of salt, don't fall for the good cop bad cop routine. we've looked the other way long enough.
    Last edited by macchiato; 11-25-2005 at 01:24 AM.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by macchiato
    That's erroneous, beauracracy stops the wheels from turning, and so to surround yourself with like minded individuals was strategic. The right made their move and was prepared to make sacrifices.(*) The left has been a heretic on the sidelines since the start.

    (I remember the start of this war the left said we would never take the ground, and the casualties were projected at least ten times the actual ammount, yet our troops marched in any way)

    This is static and is meaningless to constantly criticize.
    By the quoted above logic, If the left had a better idea they had their chance during their administration.

    However, the left and the right are there to complimant each other, its not suppossed to be a divisive measure. Many of you extreme leftist seem to forget this. The right has remembered it all to well, hence the result.

    In the end, we're all in this together the difference now there is work to be done. We have already commited ourselves, to late for the blame game.
    Still with that said take it with a grain of salt, don't fall for the good cop bad cop routine. we've looked the other way long enough.
    under the bridge no water turns for the wheel is the price of salt
    with vetching reslove wid contamplated turn of the screw with shrew
    I pass under now that you walk the arete come arrow likely not forth

  9. #9
    gentle like
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wasatch Walt
    under the bridge no water turns for the wheel is the price of salt
    with vetching reslove wid contamplated turn of the screw with shrew
    I pass under now that you walk the arete come arrow likely not forth
    "Walt ... back with a poetic vengeance."

    And the written equivalent of a stuffy nose.

    I like it.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by kept man
    "Walt ... back with a poetic vengeance."

    And the written equivalent of a stuffy nose.

    I like it.
    the half-step from cliche with random sprinkles of illogic from Muffaletta inspired me Kept; If I could write a page full of that stuff, I could apply for NeoCon top honors, and win, I am sure.

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wasatch Walt
    the half-step from cliche with random sprinkles of illogic from Muffaletta inspired me Kept; If I could write a page full of that stuff, I could apply for NeoCon top honors, and win, I am sure.
    Smo fo buttah layin' to the bone, jackin' me up...tightly!

  12. #12
    the cool nerd
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    Quote Originally Posted by own154
    Speaking of contributing. Great idea on the subject sportsman.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nuboy
    Frank's right...we hear lots of b!tching and moaning, but no soultions.
    awwww...the irony....


    Truth of the matter is that you are right, particularly in regards to Iraq, the Democrat party has not really put forth an alternative, other than the few that openly advocate the unconditional and undelayed withdrawal of troops, which is an approach that is unlikely to be successful, and less likely to be acted upon.

    But, is that an endorsement of our current course of action? Bush has led us into an untenable situation. There are serious questions about the evidence that was presented as reasons to invade Iraq. There are serious questions about the ability of the administration to lead a successful campaign in government building in Iraq, government building is an area that the US has demonstrated ineptitude in the past. Not only are there questions about our ability to lead a successful campaign, we cannot even define what a successful campaign would entail.

    IMO, to directly tie back into the OP, I think that one of the largest problems with this administration is the Republican controlled House, Senate, and administration. Until recently, this did limit checks and balances of decisions. I think that Bush was able to use this "mandate" to push actions through that would not have been as likely to pass otherwise. Additionally, to the deteriment of all, elected Democrats showed that they were ball-less and unwilling to put forth an opposition, knowing full well that their opposition would be steamrolled over anyway. Questioning your government (particularly when you were elected to do so) should never be construed as treason or being unpatriotic, but that is where we have gone. I found it particularly funnny in the past week or so watching people backpedal after disrepecting Murtha.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nuboy
    Frank's right...we hear lots of b!tching and moaning, but no soultions.
    Here's what we do. We simply deputize all insurgents and we swear them in as Republicans. From now on, we call Zawahiri and Zarqawi Republicans. We just simply make them part of the Republican Party. That will guarantee the left will hate their guts, and will finally see them as they are.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrankBooth
    Here's what we do. We simply deputize all insurgents and we swear them in as Republicans. From now on, we call Zawahiri and Zarqawi Republicans. We just simply make them part of the Republican Party. That will guarantee the left will hate their guts, and will finally see them as they are.

    Ingenious idea Frank!!... Is this admitting that republicans and Zarqawi folks have more things in common then you care to admit?
    We should have a strong president, strong enough to resist the temptation of taking power that a pres shouldnt have-Ron Paul

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nuboy
    Frank's right...we hear lots of b!tching and moaning, but no soultions.
    Frank's never right period, get down and give me ten for making that statement.

  16. #16
    T 3
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    Screw Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by FrankBooth
    Here's what we do. We simply deputize all insurgents and we swear them in as Republicans. From now on, we call Zawahiri and Zarqawi Republicans. We just simply make them part of the Republican Party. That will guarantee the left will hate their guts, and will finally see them as they are.

    Wrong

    We (the US)should pull out of Iraq immediately,attack Mexico,focus on job creation there after declaring victory then divide Mexico into 4 segments and declare them the 51-54 new States of America.

    The US would be welcomed as heros:

    Immigration ? No longer a problem.

    Mexico is one of the top ten nations in oil reserves

    Yeah we'd have to buy new US flags with 54 stars,but it's a small price to pay.

    http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=464

    Cheney's Oil Investments and the Future of Mexico's Democracy

    by Martin Espinoza, Special to CorpWatch
    August 8th, 2000

    MEXICO CITY -- The GOP's vice-presidential hopeful Dick Cheney once claimed that it was a damned shame the "good lord" didn't put the earth's most abundant oil reserves in democratic countries. It would appear that Cheney's prayers were partially answered last July, when Vicente Fox Quesada defeated Mexico's ruling, authoritarian party, and seemingly ushered in a new era of American-style democracy.

    For Cheney, the dawning of democracy in developing nations is a green light for American corporations itching to land multimillion dollar public works contracts. In Mexico, however, Cheney couldn't even wait for "democracy."

    Around the same time Cheney became Halliburton Company's chief executive, the Mexican government began planning the most ambitious oil drilling project in the country's history: opening up the 21-year-old Cantarell oil fields in the Gulf of Mexico. Not surprisingly, Halliburton, the world's largest oil services company, was in on the ground floor.
    Last edited by T 3; 11-25-2005 at 08:51 PM.

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by macchiato
    However, the left and the right are there to complimant each other, its not suppossed to be a divisive measure. Many of you extreme leftist seem to forget this. The right has remembered it all to well, hence the result.
    LOL - yeah, right! The Gingrich/Robertson/DeLay crowd really worked hard to "complement" the Clinton Administration in the 1990s!

    And here I thought hindsight was 20/20...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drewdane
    LOL - yeah, right! The Gingrich/Robertson/DeLay crowd really worked hard to "complement" the Clinton Administration in the 1990s!

    And here I thought hindsight was 20/20...
    Did you just say the equivalence of "they started it"?
    I hope not.

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by macchiato
    Did you just say the equivalence of "they started it"?
    I hope not.
    Of course not (but they did ). I was just pointing out the hypocrisy of your statement.

    Of course, hypocrisy's nothing new to modern American conservatives - it's an integral part of their souls - might as well have eggs without bacon, or a sundae without whipped cream.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drewdane
    Of course not (but they did ). I was just pointing out the hypocrisy of your statement.

    Of course, hypocrisy's nothing new to modern American conservatives - it's an integral part of their souls - might as well have eggs without bacon, or a sundae without whipped cream.
    For the record I'm unlabled.
    Neither conservative or liberal.
    My statement is not hypocrisy because I believe in it.

  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by macchiato
    For the record I'm unlabled.
    Neither conservative or liberal.
    My statement is not hypocrisy because I believe in it.
    Fair enough. However, while your statement may not be hypocritical, it is inaccurate. Cheap shot politics have been part of our system since the founding of the Republic. Complementing each other has never been a major attribute of our politics.

  22. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drewdane
    Fair enough. However, while your statement may not be hypocritical, it is inaccurate. Cheap shot politics have been part of our system since the founding of the Republic. Complementing each other has never been a major attribute of our politics.
    Its ment for the people. As a direction to petition for individual rights.
    That is the accurate reason for different party's.
    This isn't Confederate and Union, but its starting to sound like that around here. Its counter productive and strips away the credibility of what anyone has to say when they become so biased.
    I'm sure everyones parents taught them that just because everyone is doing it doesn't make it ok, in one form or another.

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