Triple - Triple XPE design.- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Idea! Triple - Triple XPE design.

    Hi all,

    I've been working on a new design as I've been a bit bored at work this week...it's going to be a Triple Triple XPE. It's only in the early stages of design but I'd appreciate any feedback regarding the design, optics, driver etc.

    The pic is just a screenshot from my masterCAM drawing

    Here's the good bit ( I think)....the 2 pods on the side are going to be rotateable so that the beam can be customised for angle. By using different optics you shoud be able to get a really good beam pattern that would give a nice flood (using a wide or elliptical optic) good miidle light (using a medium) and nice throw with a narrow...

    Let me know what ya think please

    Cheers, Steve
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  2. #2
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    That's a wild looking housing D! Are the side pods adjustable only up and down, or ball-and-socket style for any-angle adjustment? I've been thinking about a triple xr-e design with vertical adjustment on the outer two leds, but it's not nearly so exotic (no CNC mills in my basement).

    JZ
    It's not about speed, it's about lack of control.

  3. #3
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    Aren't you afraid that with wide angle optics in the sides, light could reflect on the central section and cause some glare in the cyclist eyes?
    When you think that life is though, keep a positive attitude : remember that it is short ;-)

  4. #4
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    Thanks JZ,
    Yeah, they are only adjustable in the vertical, the optics should do the rest (I hope).

    Calina: The front section is only about 8mm proud of the pods so reflected light won't be a problem.

    Steve

  5. #5
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    Great looking design.
    What is the real world size? ~100-120mm wide or?

    I am probably interest if the size (and cost) are reasonable.

    /Håkan
    SWEDEN

  6. #6
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    Hey Hakan,

    Thanks How did you get on with the other housing? At the moment, the housing is approx 90mm wide, 40mm high and 50mm deep. As it's just the initial design, I'll be looking at reducing the size (if possible) and trying to save some weight. Mind you, I don't even know how much it will weigh yet so it may already be superlight once I get to machine one.

    I'll add some more info once I've got the prototype done. Need to place an order with cutters though...

    Steve

  7. #7
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    [quote]Let me know what ya think please ....

    mmmm yummy ... please sir can i have 2 of those squarey roundy middley bits in one piece
    a dooble triple, run 6 series on a nFlex with a 6 cell battery (big bright, big runtime)
    mount at back switch on top, dc in bottom glass lens protect the optic
    black ano ............ `kin killer light
    ...Scun.thorpe, UK

  8. #8
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    1st prototype nearly done.

    Hi all,

    I've had a chance to do a bit of machining on this little project. I've still got the side pods to make but have a look and let me know what you think

    Steve
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  9. #9
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    just beautiful ..... i had to dash off and get a 20p coin lol
    ...... hell yeah i`ll have one
    ...Scun.thorpe, UK

  10. #10
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    Hey Graham,

    If you think it's small now you should see it once I've made it smaller.... I reckon I can loose about 20% of the current size! It's just a prototype at the moment so will see how it works once I have enough dough to order some LED's and optics from cutter...I reckon it could be good!
    I initially designed it around the hipFlex but as the maxFlex will do fine, I'll be able to make it quite a bit smaller. Just need to get on the lathe so I can turn the side pods.
    You'll be 1st on the list if I do a few to sell

    Steve

  11. #11
    Single Speed Junkie
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    Steve, design looks like it is coming along nicely. Lets see the finished version...

  12. #12
    Five is right out
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    The design on paper looks like a blaster part out of Star Wars

    Tripple tripple? What sort of battery pack are you thinking of feeding into that?

  13. #13
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    yes, a good point there womble, see #18 in this initial thread.....

    Driving XPE Triple and MCE
    ...Scun.thorpe, UK

  14. #14
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    Ok Deesta... stop this. I already have one of your creations. Don't make me pine for another.

    Great work. Top notch stuff.

  15. #15
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    Thanks for the comments guys.

    womble: I'll be using a 15v 5.4aH Li-ion, driven by a maxFlex

    racerdave: You DON'T have to buy one I've really got the bug now...I guess I'm a bit like troutie, I spend a lot of time at work sketching out possible options on what would/wouldn't work. I reckon this one will...and the adjustable beam angles should work really well too.

    I've had a bit of a play on my CAD/CAM today and have managed to shave 2mm off the outer size. That takes it down from 40mm to 36mm. Should save quite a bit of weight, the centre body was 110g (with screws/switch and a dummy maxFlex in)

  16. #16
    aka RossC
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    Quote Originally Posted by deesta
    (with screws/switch and a dummy maxFlex in)
    Hi Deesta,

    Why the maxflex?

    It has a max output of 1.2 amps, so if you are going to parallel the three strings you will only be able to give 400ma to each LED. It would think your housing will be able to cope with more heat than that!

    If you are going series, then it is a massive Vf and will smoke the maxflex.

    Just thinking about how bright this could be if they were all running at 700ma

  17. #17
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    Hey OBS,

    If the maxflex isn't upto it, what would you recommend? HipFlex?? The electronics side of things is where I go wrong Still a newbie in that respect

    Steve

  18. #18
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    I'd look into a Blue Shark. It's got a lot of guts and may work out for you. I'm looking to use one in a double quad XRE build.

    http://theledguy.chainreactionweb.co...1136&language=

  19. #19
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    It is a very interesting concept and I am thinking it would lend itself to using a quad in the centre and 2 triples in the outers . this would then give you the even number to split in to two strings .

    But I like the concept of 2 drivers here 1 for the quad in the middle and 1 for the outers
    so you can have either on at any one time . so maybe a controlable driver for the centre
    and a cheap dumb driver for the outers

  20. #20
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    Very nice.

    I don't really need another light, but depending on the price I may not be able to resist.

    Keep up the good work.
    TEX

  21. #21
    aka RossC
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    Quote Originally Posted by deesta
    Hey OBS,

    If the maxflex isn't upto it, what would you recommend? HipFlex?? The electronics side of things is where I go wrong Still a newbie in that respect

    Steve
    i think your original plan of a hipflex would be the winner for a triple triple. Run it at 2A with the strings in parallel to give 666ma per LED. The vF would be sub 12V so you could comfortably run it off a 14.8 bat.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by ocean breathes salty
    i think your original plan of a hipflex would be the winner for a triple triple. Run it at 2A with the strings in parallel to give 666ma per LED. The vF would be sub 12V so you could comfortably run it off a 14.8 bat.
    got to agree, this is the easiest, brightest, most flexible approach, steve can you hear us!
    and hey remember you `could` crank it up to mach 2.8a
    ...Scun.thorpe, UK

  23. #23
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    If it is possible to change the design I would like to have the freedom to choose between the setup suggested above by Troutie http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?...3&postcount=19 (quad center + 2 trippel pods) and two driver boards

    But also room enough for a hipFlex as suggested by salty above.

    (Then I would only have to make my mind up on wich one to build....)


    /Håkan
    SWEDEN

  24. #24
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    OK, I hear you all...looks like it'll be a hipFlex then

    Will need to have another look as I've modded my programs to take a max but shouldn't be a problem modding again for the hip.

    Hakan: It does sound like a good idea but I reckon I'll get the triple triple working 1st. Then have a look at doing the quad centre/triple pods with 2 drivers....

    Steve

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by HEY HEY ITS HENDO
    got to agree, this is the easiest, brightest, most flexible approach, steve can you hear us!
    and hey remember you `could` crank it up to mach 2.8a
    \Only problem is balancing the current across all the LEDs, whats the easiest way to do that?
    Need optics for DIY bike lights?

  26. #26
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    Sinple... i don`t believe there is/was or ever will be a problem!
    ...Scun.thorpe, UK

  27. #27
    I spelled Knievel wrong
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    Parallel strings of LEDs can cause problems especially if they aren't thermally connected to each other!!! There's some info on how to safely run series/parallel configurations in this CPF thread:

    http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...d.php?t=222629

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by StevelKnivel
    Parallel strings of LEDs can cause problems especially if they aren't thermally connected to each other!!! There's some info on how to safely run series/parallel configurations in this CPF thread:

    http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...d.php?t=222629
    Very interesting reading, thanks for the link. So any ideas how to adapt that for 3 strings?

  29. #29
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    With a triple triple the problem of balancing is smaller then with just a triple that would be wired parallel. Mathemetics

    The best would be to measure the forward voltage of the leds individually and put them then together so the strings are as balanced as possible. Solutions as in the link above are better for the balancing, but you'll add quite some components to your build and the efficiency will decrease.
    Wouldn't be too hard to redesign that schematic for use in triple triple.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by super-fast
    With a triple triple the problem of balancing is smaller then with just a triple that would be wired parallel. Mathemetics

    The best would be to measure the forward voltage of the leds individually and put them then together so the strings are as balanced as possible. Solutions as in the link above are better for the balancing, but you'll add quite some components to your build and the efficiency will decrease.
    Wouldn't be too hard to redesign that schematic for use in triple triple.
    Only problem is they come premounted on the 20mm boards. Where you could DIY mount an XR-E or MC-E, the XPE would be impossible to do without BGA/reflow and a microscope to put on the paste. And lots of experience with these tools.

    But it would be interesting to see how much the boards would vary in Vf and what effect it has on the current. Woulndt be to hard to measure, just solder some way to long wires between the boards so you can put a current clamp around it to measure the current.
    This would only work with three serial boards in parralel, not with parralel boards in series.
    Need optics for DIY bike lights?

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by brum
    Only problem is they come premounted on the 20mm boards..
    The cutter xpe 20mm triples are individually addressable so you could run wires here and there to get perfect Vf balance.

  32. #32
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    Major spaghetti drama though if you are going to route cables from one board onto another...
    Quote Originally Posted by znomit
    The cutter xpe 20mm triples are individually addressable so you could run wires here and there to get perfect Vf balance.
    Need optics for DIY bike lights?

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by brum
    Only problem is they come premounted on the 20mm boards. Where you could DIY mount an XR-E or MC-E, the XPE would be impossible to do without BGA/reflow and a microscope to put on the paste. And lots of experience with these tools.

    But it would be interesting to see how much the boards would vary in Vf and what effect it has on the current. Woulndt be to hard to measure, just solder some way to long wires between the boards so you can put a current clamp around it to measure the current.
    This would only work with three serial boards in parralel, not with parralel boards in series.
    Never say impossible I did solder Rebels to a piece of copper in the past with an ordinary soldering iron. I only distroyed 1 of them. For example AMC7135 chips, I desolder them from the board and solder them to a piece of copper as new heatsink. (The grounds are connected between the chips on the DX boards, I couldn't get rid of the connection)

    Easiest way to measure forward voltage is to connect all leds in series to a power supply that can deliver enough voltage. Then you can easily measure all the voltages.

  34. #34
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    some interesting reading , but stevel say as long as they are thermally connected

    I take it to mean that if they are all on the same heasink they they will stay approximatly the same temp

    Is there some averageing going to happen with a triple triple in 3 strings

    has there been any reports of the thermal runaway in the bike light community or are the multi strings too new and non reported yet but maybe just around the corner .

    what about all the P7 lights out there with parralel emitters

    are we talking ourselves in to a problem that is really nothing to worry about.

  35. #35
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    Something to try out and learn from I guess. MC-E and P7 are a different story alltogether, one package. The XPE's are individual chips that can get mixed and matched.

    This might be an interesting thing to start a new topic for?

    And the one heatsink thing is also a consideration since the two side pods arent heatsinked exactly the same as the middle one.

    Quote Originally Posted by troutie-mtb
    some interesting reading , but stevel say as long as they are thermally connected

    I take it to mean that if they are all on the same heasink they they will stay approximatly the same temp

    Is there some averageing going to happen with a triple triple in 3 strings

    has there been any reports of the thermal runaway in the bike light community or are the multi strings too new and non reported yet but maybe just around the corner .

    what about all the P7 lights out there with parralel emitters

    are we talking ourselves in to a problem that is really nothing to worry about.
    Need optics for DIY bike lights?

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by troutie-mtb
    I take it to mean that if they are all on the same heasink they they will stay approximatly the same temp
    Is there some averageing going to happen with a triple triple in 3 strings

    has there been any reports of the thermal runaway in the bike light community or are the multi strings too new and non reported yet but maybe just around the corner .

    what about all the P7 lights out there with parralel emitters

    are we talking ourselves in to a problem that is really nothing to worry about.
    As long as each LED is the same temp they should be OK(hence P7/MC-E ok). The housing here with the two side pods... probably ok. I think there was an earlier 2x2 LED package that did have issues with Vf matching.
    Some of this stuff is important for lighting that runs +20,000, not so much for us(I did over 400hrs on the roadie last year so I reckon my lights are good till 2060 by which time they will be powered by gravity waves from the passing cars )

    Yes the more LEDs in the string the less it matters... I think the advice has been 1 bad, two not good, three or more ok. Personally I would(and have done) only do this if I was underdriving the LEDs (say 500mA for XP-E 700 for XR-E) to give some headroom and they were to the same heatsink.
    My experience has been very well matched Vfs on any cutter shipment, though others have seen significant differences. Real or not who knows.

    If you had three triples driven parallel 2.1A (1900lm) and one was running 1A and the other two 550mA would you notice you were only getting 1850lm? If one string went out would you notice you were at 1600lm?

  37. #37
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    A few goodies from the postman...

    I had a small delivery on Saturday from Hendo....a few little bits to play with
    Got 3 of each of these...

    To go in here like this..

    Just gotta order a hipFlex now...may need some advice on wiring these up
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  38. #38
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    lol wow ...... rock on!!
    what will seal around the optic edge?
    ...Scun.thorpe, UK

  39. #39
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    Hey Graham,

    Thanks for the lovely bits I've now got to play with Hopefully get the side pods done this week and will then be able to look at trying to get it all together.
    I did have a thought about making the light compatible with the Hope stem plate mounting system. Would this be a good option? I''ve got a Thompson stem and I think they do a plate that will fit my stem. It could be a good option for a cleaner look??

    To hold the optics in on this light, I'm going to use o-rings. I've tried it on one of my earlier lights and it works really well. It just involves having a groove for the o-ring to sit in that is positioned on the front edge of the optic. The optic is located in the housing, then the o-ring is squeezed into the groove, against the optic face. I've attached a pic of my old light to show what I mean....
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  40. #40
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    did you use any lube on the o ring? ky jelly ....?
    I did have a thought about making the light compatible with the Hope stem plate mounting system
    i`m not sure if they are available since they opted for a bar mount system and discontinued the old vision 2 ( which i thought was a great system)

    http://www.hopegb.com/mes_r_typ_s_ra...cherche_1.html
    .
    http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/C...entPageIndex=1
    i would like to see a glass lens to protect the optics though
    ...Scun.thorpe, UK

  41. #41
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    I've been doing a bit of machining today on the housing for the triple-triple. Unfortunatley, I've left my camera at work . Will hopefully have a fully functional housing tomorrow (Not putting out any light yet as I don't have a hipFlex yet).
    It looks pretty good so will post some pics tomorrow for your critique
    Steve

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by znomit
    The cutter xpe 20mm triples are individually addressable so you could run wires here and there to get perfect Vf balance.

    We are supplying a customer with these with a R2 WG, P4 7A and Q2 5C, and with the individual control you can improve colour rendition to get an uber tint
    Cheers
    WeLight

    Cutter Electronics Pty Ltd www.cutter.com.au

  43. #43
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    Originally posted by WeLight
    We are supplying a customer with these with a R2 WG, P4 7A and Q2 5C, and with the individual control you can improve colour rendition to get an uber tint
    Wow
    That is customer service to the extreme.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by WeLight
    We are supplying a customer with these with a R2 WG, P4 7A and Q2 5C, and with the individual control you can improve colour rendition to get an uber tint
    Gee, that sounds like a groovy light

  45. #45
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    I''ve got a Thompson stem and I think they do a plate that will fit my stem. It could be a good option for a cleaner look??
    Hope stem plates @nice prices http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/M...?ModelID=15564

  46. #46
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    Prototype photo's

    Here's some photo's of handiwork today

    Feedback much appreciated....
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  47. #47
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    simply awesome...

  48. #48
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    I just crapped myself.....Deesta, that looks sick!

  49. #49
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    Love the orange o-rings. You CNC guys do amazing work.

  50. #50
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    Thanks guys,

    Crank: I hope you didn't make too much mess

    Still got a bit of work to do as I'm gonna put some heatsinking on there somewhere....any ideas?? I'm open to suggestions

    Just ordered my hipFlex too so hopefully have it up and running before too long
    Might need a bit of help though.....

  51. #51
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    wow futuristic looks, ... like something from science fiction......
    is the hipflex fixed into the squarey bit back?(last pic)
    heatsink? are we talking fins here
    edit ...leave out the switch and dc holes =nice flat for hipflex
    switch on top /dc in bottom ..... ?

    Quote Originally Posted by yetibetty
    cheers betty
    Last edited by HEY HEY ITS HENDO; 03-27-2009 at 12:56 PM.
    ...Scun.thorpe, UK

  52. #52
    Lets RIDE!
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    How about on the side pods, cutting the fins on the diagonal to match the back angle? And a matching chevron pattern on the main body....is that even possible?

    JZ
    It's not about speed, it's about lack of control.

  53. #53
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    I was thinking of doing something to match the angles of the side pods

    It weighs in at 160 grams, how does that suit the weight weenies out there? Would hope to loose a bit more weight with some heatsinking too..

    Graham, the hipFlex will fit into the front part of the main body. Fixed to the rear mounting surface of the centre LED. Will do some more pics soon

  54. #54
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    ahh ok ... lets see a bit more inside and with the optic/board removed too
    ...Scun.thorpe, UK

  55. #55
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    No worries, I'll do some more pics on sunday. I'm off for a game of golf and lots to drink tomorrow . Oh, and a 1920's themed ball for my fiance's work do....woo-hoo

    I've made a dummy hipFlex which should help show how it'll go together too

  56. #56
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    Some heatsink photo's

    Hi gang,

    Just been doing some heatsink machining on the housing...

    What do ya reckon? The last photo shows how the wires from the central 'pod' will get through to the hipFlex. There is a small channel in which the wires will be able to run

    Cheers, Steve
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  57. #57
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    Hey Deesta, why the dimples in the LED mounting surface on the side pod in the pic? It seems you would want max surface area for the star to transmit heat to the pod.

    This is some gorgeous machining man. I love the orange O-rings too.

    Thanks

  58. #58
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    very, very nice steve .... hey i could see one of those side pods as a helmet light
    or maybe a pair on lumi mounts either side of the stem ....
    maybe the dimples are for indexing (?) repositioning thing
    ...Scun.thorpe, UK

  59. #59
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    Hey guys

    Thanks for the comments The dimples are, as Hendo rightly says, for aligning the optics and star. The opti legs protrude slightly through the PCB so I thought it would be useful to be able to orientate the LED's correctly.
    As I've done 2 sets of holes, it is possible to align the LED's with either 1 on the outise/2 on the inside or 2 on the ouside/1 on the inside depending on how the light is projected
    Will put some pics up later to show what I mean

    Hendo: I reckon you could use 2 of the 'pods' mounted on a helmet with a maxFlex/power socket in one side and a switch in the other. Might be something to look at once I get this one working.

    Anyone be able to draw me up a simple wiring diagram of the best way to wire this up???

    Cheers, Steve

  60. #60
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    lol no i thought they were for positioning in a jig for rework/re -machining
    i vote for 3 dimples only then ...
    I reckon you could use 2 of the 'pods' mounted on a helmet
    with a maxFlex/power socket in one side and a switch in the other
    sounds good to me,
    .
    wiring?? hipFlex, 4s li-ion battery and 3 of these ......(without the solder series link)
    Last edited by HEY HEY ITS HENDO; 03-30-2009 at 01:43 PM.
    ...Scun.thorpe, UK

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    He needs the "series solder link". After that it's very straight forward, solder the 3 'red' wires from the 3 stars together and attach a wire from there to the Hipflex. Do the same for the 'black' wire and you're done. It is really easy.

    When you'd would do a housing for a single MC-E / Triple XP-E, I would be very interested. For example the housing designed by Ktronik was too big in my opinion. I have some solid work drawings I made a long time ago, but I didn't do anything with them since I don't have access to a CNC mill.

  62. #62
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    Ha, fooled you Gray!!! I think the 6 is proabably more useful however as it will allow for adjustment. The holes are only 2.5mm diameter and 1.5mm deep so shouldn't affect cooling

    wiring?? hipFlex, 4s li-ion battery and 3 of these ......(without the solder series link)

    Would that mean that I'd need to run 6 wires from each star? Or am I being thick? It is late and I am tired....



    Sorry superfast, just seen your post. Must have missed it some how. That sounds really straight forward I've ordered a pre-wired hipFlex off George so that should also help with my poor wiring skills...If you wanted me to, I could have a look at your drawings??

    I was a I bit worried about the wiring options but that has put my mind at ease.

    I've just dropped the housing on the scales and it's now 155g with the LED's/optics and switch in place. That doesn't seem too bad??
    Last edited by deesta; 03-30-2009 at 02:16 PM.

  63. #63
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    Looks good.

    Like how you are using the O-rings in holding the optics in. What tooling are you using for creating the groove?

    I was thinking of hard mounting all componets by loading the optics, emitters, then epoxying all of the pieces in. With this method I don't know how efficient it will be as there are multiple thermal junctions. Might post up my carvings this evening, Really like your housing on this one though

    Quick edit for pics.
    Group of lights. Mostly small stuff as I'm still learning quite a bit.
    Secondary shot with the round casing open
    Square housing with copper insert. Very tight fit.
    Vintage halogen customized several years back. Think it is a turbo cat housing.
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    Last edited by crux; 03-30-2009 at 09:39 PM.

  64. #64
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    Thanks Crux.
    I tried the method on one of my old housings and it's worked really well, no problem with the optic coming loose and it seals the front really well. It's important to get the groove in the right place though so that the o-ring seals against the optic properly. I was a little out on the prototype so the optics are a tad loose but will put that right when I do one for proper use

    This is the sort of tool I'm using...It's solid carbide, 1.5mm wide so is perfect for the o-ring I'm using. It produces the groove by circular interpolating the diameter, starting at the centre and spiralling out to size, then back to the centre before retracting above the job.

    Yeah, stick some pics up of your carvings
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    It is a cool idea and neat design Steve , I am not sure if it will offer any advantage over what can be achieved with optics in a rigid housing .but be good to see it working and proved wrong though.

    Then what about cost do you have an estimate on pricing.

    Is the oring method water and mud proof and how will it combat capilary attraction sucking water past the seal .

    I also dont see any need for the indents and I would prefer to have the led seat totaly flat for a better contact patch

  66. #66
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    Thanks Chris,

    I'm not sure either but wanted to give it a try...will know soon!! It was just an idea I had and wanted to see it through.

    The o-ring method worked very well on my old helmet light. I did put a very small amount of grease on the o-ring 1st which would help too.

    The indents allow the LED to sit perfectly flush to the mounting surface. The legs of the optics protrude slightly and would need to be filed off to allow it to sit flat. Could be a bit awkward considering the size of them. Would be easy to break a leg off .

    I'm thinking they would be aroud £55 - 60 ish??? Have not looked at that side of things.

    Steve

  67. #67
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    Steve, I've been using the same method for front sealing on my production dynamo lights and it works great! Like you said, the tolerances are critical. I target 0.015" compression on a 3/32" silicon o-ring, and the deviation of the glass lens/reflector/LED assembly stack height from light to light is around +/- .003", so the actual o-ring compression ends up between 0.012 and 0.018. That gives a pretty tight fit and I ended up making a Delrin tool that centers the oring and presses it in without marring the glass lens. As long as the stack height of the 20mm triple XPE stars/optics is consistent then this method works great for a production run... fewer parts and easy machining and installation! BTW, the light looks great!

    Cheers!

  68. #68
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    Cheers Steve, great minds eh?? I've measured the 3 stars/optics I've got and they are within 0.04mm (0.003") so it should be fine. The o-rings I've got are also quite soft so should take up any extra/less without any problems.

    Cheers, Steve

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    This bit could be interesting...

    I had a small delivery today....just need to get the soldering iron out!!

    Any tips on producing the 'series link' on the cuuter photo?? Is it just a small amount of solder, bridged across the 2 very small pads??

    Steve
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    yes, of the 3 pair of solder pads located next to the optic leg holes
    you will notice one is different
    this one is for + - wires
    solder a bridge on the other 2 pair
    ...Scun.thorpe, UK

  71. #71
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    Thanks Gray,

    I can see the difference now I've had a good look. Will attempt to solder tomorrow, just got in from a long ride and can't face it now

    Hopefully be able to put some pics up tomorrow of the thing working. I did cheat slightly and got George at TaskLed to solder some flying leads for me. I seem to blow his things up just by looking at them wrong

    Steve

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    another option

    My understanding is you are going to do a 3-3 series/ parallel connection.

    It seems like there could be some temp variations from pod to pod, but within each pod/star the temperature should be very close. By wiring each star in series then all the stars in parallel you may end up with uneven current distributions. I'm not sure if this would be a problem but to be safe why not wire each pod/star in parallel, then wire the 3 pods/stars together in series. The way the stars are pinned a parallel connection will take more wires then just the 2 jumpers. i.e. it will take 4 wires that each most go to the same polarity on the next LED for each star.
    TEX

  73. #73
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    Hi tex,

    You'll have to excus eme but I'm a bit dim on series/parallel. I just get all confused, especially where 3 LED's per board are involved

    Would you have some kind of wiring diagram? I was thinking about doing the 3 stars in series as above then joining the 3 +ve and 3 -ve wires from the 3 stars together and putting 1 lead each from those +ve and -ve into the hip. Does that sound right? at all?

    Steve

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    RE another option

    Steve, even i couldn`t do Tex`s other option on those boards ....
    relax and go as you were
    Last edited by HEY HEY ITS HENDO; 04-02-2009 at 03:12 PM. Reason: my wireless mouse battery went flat
    ...Scun.thorpe, UK

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by HEY HEY ITS HENDO
    ............
    .........
    yeah its red green blue(tiny disco light anyone?) and (k)cathode, anode.
    But you can use any +/- neighbors and bridge the other two. I just went nuts with the solder on the pads.

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    I'll try.

    the way you are talking now looks something like this.

    |----A1----A2---A3--|
    |----B1----B2---B3--|
    |----C1---C2---C3---|

    Where A1,A2 and A3 are first start, B1,B2,B3 are 2nd star etc.

    What I am proposing is the following connection


    |--A1--|... |--B1--|...|--C1--|
    |--A2--|----|--B2--|---|--C2--| -- LED-
    |--A3--|....|--B3--|...|--C3--|

    The .. are just to keep the collums. both cases the LED+ to one side and the LED- to the other side. All LEDs should be connected with the correct polarity.

    If all the components and temperatures are the same the 2 circuits should function the same, but if the temperatures are diff thus effecting the led voltages the currents will not be the same in the first between the leds., but as long as the LEDs on the star are the same temp all the LEDs should get the same current with what I am suggesting.(assuming the LEDs are identical).


    Quote Originally Posted by deesta
    Hi tex,

    You'll have to excus eme but I'm a bit dim on series/parallel. I just get all confused, especially where 3 LED's per board are involved

    Would you have some kind of wiring diagram? I was thinking about doing the 3 stars in series as above then joining the 3 +ve and 3 -ve wires from the 3 stars together and putting 1 lead each from those +ve and -ve into the hip. Does that sound right? at all?

    Steve
    TEX

  77. #77
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    Thanks Tex,

    I'm still a little confused I think heat shouldn't be too much of a problem as the pods are connected to the main body by a 16mm diameter lug and each pod is within 1mm of the centre.
    I'm gonna try soldering it up using the 1st method just to see if the idea of the adjustable beams works. I'll look into doing a more technical solder once I know if it's worth it.

    So, I've created the series links on all 3 LED's. Actually made quite a nice job of it for me
    I've checked the continuity with a MM and I'm getting cont on the pads either side of each link. ie: R-/B+, G-/R+. I don't seem to be getting continuity anywhere else. Is that correct? I don't want to get everything wired up to then go and blow something for not fully checking.....

    Cheers, Steve
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    a tadge bigger solder blobs please steve,
    just to ensure a definite, low impedance connection
    warm the star first, it makes life easier
    Never ever EVER ...use separate acid based solder flux ...
    next, the wires
    ...Scun.thorpe, UK

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    you should be fine.

    The other configuration would be a bit safer, but since these things are so small the wiring would be difficult. Considering you have a robust thermal connection between the pods you should be fine.
    TEX

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    Right, I've got everything wired up. Continuity is good across all contacts BUT when I've connected to the battery, only 2 of the triples lights up. HipFlex is working properly as I can access the menu system.

    Any tips on what to check for? Is there a way of testing the LED's so that I can get an indication of whether the LED is OK? I've got the 3 +ve's/3 -ve's from the triples together then running to the hipFlex. The DC socket and switch are working so don't think the problem is there....

    Cheers

  81. #81
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    since 2 boards are working
    the fault can only occur between the hipflex to (and on) the non working board
    wires connection, link solder blobs ... + - right way round
    does your multimeter have a diode tester
    Last edited by HEY HEY ITS HENDO; 04-04-2009 at 05:23 AM.
    ...Scun.thorpe, UK

  82. #82
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    I'll do a re-solder on the loints for the cables. How do I tell if my MM has a diode tester and how does it work? It's quite an old one and I don't have any instructions The LED looks clean with no solder blobs, continuity is good all over the LED too...

  83. #83
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    can you see this on your multimeter .....
    ...Scun.thorpe, UK

  84. #84
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    This may be unrelated, but in the photo in post #77, the emitters might not all be oriented the same way? Each emitter has 2 little white or silver rectangles on one side. If you go clockwise from the top, the third one is reversed. Could that emitter be on the board backwards, with the polarity reversed? Do all the boards look like that?

    Just guessing here, I've never had my hands on one of these. But I want to see this baby lit up!

    JZ
    It's not about speed, it's about lack of control.

  85. #85
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    Hey Gray, Yes I do have that symbol on my MM do I just put one tester on each side of the LED? I'll try it on one of my old XRE's...
    JZ: It looks like you're right, great spot!! What a stroke of luck that I took the photo of one one that is not working. What can I do to correct? Looks like it might get a bit fiddly in there

    Just checked all the individual LED's and they all work, one is definately reversed

  86. #86
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    wow very very impressive "hawkeye" jim
    i`ll email mark at Cutters
    it obviously wasn`t working when it left there
    ...Scun.thorpe, UK

  87. #87
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    Hmmm.....it was just a wild guess....hope it solves the problem. I think I might have had a red Lux III with the same problem. It blew up when I tried to run it at full current.

    On my meter, if I set it to that diode symbol and touch the contacts on a single emitter star, it glows dimly. Although mine doesn't have the + and - symbols next to the diode symbol, and I've been using it as if the arrow was pointing to the + side So yeah, try it on a cheap emitter first. I'm not sure it would have the power to light all three at once but you could test the individual emitters.

    I've also tested single emitters by direct driving them off two AAA batteries (per suggestion of the fine folks at LedSupply.com). Polarity is of course important.

    How to fix? Wow, I guess you'd have to de-solder and reinstall that tiny timy emitter the other way around...good luck with that! Perhaps a call to Cutter first.

    JZ
    It's not about speed, it's about lack of control.

  88. #88
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    in the pic the led at 8 oclock is the wrong way round
    so on pads B+ R- remove the solder link
    now test the led, if you can get it to light up, its ok
    the supply wire you soldered onto B- now needs to go to B+
    solder a link wire from B- to R-
    bingo

    Last edited by HEY HEY ITS HENDO; 04-04-2009 at 09:30 AM.
    ...Scun.thorpe, UK

  89. #89
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    The quick fix....beautiful!

    I love this place.....people on the opposite sides of the world put their heads together and find a solution in just a few hours

    Steve, you should send that photo to Cutter anyway, so he can slap someone upside the head!

    JZ

    So....beamshots?
    It's not about speed, it's about lack of control.

  90. #90
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    It's awesome here...that was a great spot there Jim, how bizarre that I put a photo up of the wrong one (had a 1 in 3 chance of that). I'll have a go at doing the solder link/re-solder and see how we go. With just 2 on it looksa really good. If I don't get it done tonight, I'll have a go tomorrow but I may post some quick BS's of the 2 later just for the hell of it

  91. #91
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    Woo-Hoo....

    OMG...I never thought I'd be able to do such small soldering!! But, following Hendo's excellent description of what to do I got the little bugger working.

    Off to do some basic beam shots....
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  92. #92
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    Yeah man! What a team

    JZ
    It's not about speed, it's about lack of control.

  93. #93
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    Way to go Steve!! i knew you had it in you ...
    hmmmm, 9 x R2 @ 900ma - losses =
    ...Scun.thorpe, UK

  94. #94
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    Thanks for the help guys... It's really good! Only problem is that my other half picked up the camera after I took the photo of it working and has gone out with it so no beam shots tonight I'm afraid.

    It's been a bit fiddly but got there in the end Will have to take it out on the trails to see if the adjustable pods do work. Can't really tell in the back garden as it's not very big.

    Right, off for a well deserved pint

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    you can figure it out with your volt meter.

    You have an open circuit on that string. measure the voltage across all the segments being careful not to short out anything. Remember the sum of all the voltages across a series circuit will add up. What you would expect is each LED to have just over 3 volts, and the 3 together in series to have about 10 volts. Since there is no current flowing what you likely have is all or most of the voltage at the point of your problem, and then less or no voltage on the other LEDs or segments. If you start on one end of the circuit and measure to the voltage to the next segment , then measure from the start to the next connection etc at some point you will see a large unexpected jump in voltage and that is where your problem is. At that place in your circuit re solder the connections, if it still doesn't work you probably have a bad LED.
    TEX

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    Quote Originally Posted by deesta
    It's awesome here...that was a great spot there Jim, how bizarre that I put a photo up of the wrong one (had a 1 in 3 chance of that). I'll have a go at doing the solder link/re-solder and see how we go. With just 2 on it looksa really good. If I don't get it done tonight, I'll have a go tomorrow but I may post some quick BS's of the 2 later just for the hell of it
    Consider us slapped, tis odd as we test every board, so somebody didnt. I have a better solution moving forward
    We now have a series wired round 20mm Triple board, so no soldering required
    Cheers
    WeLight

    Cutter Electronics Pty Ltd www.cutter.com.au

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    OK, here's a question for you really clever people...how do you calculate the lumen output for this kind of arrangement? Is there a simple formula?

  98. #98
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    From the data sheet: Minimum luminous flux is 114 lumens @ 350mA. Then, the "Relative Flux vs. Current" chart (page 5) shows what to multiply that by for different current. I don't remember anymore what you're driving each emitter at. But it works out to ~154 @ 500mA, ~177 @ 600mA, ~194 @ 700mA. That's for each emitter. So x9 = between 1026 and 1746 lumens.....please don't aim it at the northeast US....I'm trying to sleep!

    I hope I did the math right.....I'm a woodworker not a physicist.

    JZ

    (can you photograph it next to one of Troutie's playing cards (and a TroutLight :-) for a size reference? )
    It's not about speed, it's about lack of control.

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    ... and if we just ... Deesta in shock soldering success

    Nice one steve . I bet you thought your gremmlings were coming back to haunt you there.

  100. #100
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    Cheers Chris,

    I did think I'd done something wrong...glad it was not me!!!!

    Good maths skills JZ, that's quite pleasing . I've done a pic next to the original Altair prototype for an idea of size. It weighs in at 200g with the mount so that's pleasing too!! Just need to get it out on the trail to see how it perfoms...
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  101. #101
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    Excellent. I like the o-ring retaining method. DX has glow-in-the-dark o-rings, but maybe not in the size you'd need.

    JZ
    It's not about speed, it's about lack of control.

  102. #102
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    Cheers JZ,
    I did look for the GITD o-rings but they don't do them in the right size. I do use them on my Altair XRE helmet light tho and they do look quite neat. Glow doesn't last that long tho

  103. #103
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    Steve, thats one hot lookin light man,
    ......remember the hipFlex will punch out 2.8Amps
    and that is not a warning!
    ...Scun.thorpe, UK

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    Cheers Gray, couldn't have done it without you (and you JZ!!) I'll give it a whirl @ 2800 and see how it goes....I think I need a late night up the hills with my camera and my bike, will try to do a video, Hendo style too

  105. #105
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    the 3 lenses you have are 10507 narrow, so they will be throwy/spotty
    they dont have a smooth surface, the 3 dimples will collect crud
    lol i just remembered you can adjust the 2 pods, a vid should be interesting!

    Part No. Description........... FWHM*.. EFF Cd/lm
    10507 .. Narrow lens front .... 16.4 .. 88.7%.... 7.1
    10508 .. Frosted medium........ 25.9 .. 87.2% .. 2.8
    10509 .. Frosted wide ........... 36.7 .... 80% .... 1.24
    10510.. Elliptical ................ 43x16 ...... 80% .... 1.6
    10511 .. Frosted narrow ........ 22 ...... 85% .... 4.36
    ...Scun.thorpe, UK

  106. #106
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    Hey Deesta, what the latest on this setup? Any chance on getting beamshots?

  107. #107
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    ......................... ....beamshots?
    ...Scun.thorpe, UK

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    Oooh, you lot and your bloody beamshots lol

    I've been a bit busy recently and one of the LED's is not working on full throttle so need to do a few bits and pieces to get it running on all 9 cylinders again....

    I will do some, I promise

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    This light is awesome. Beam shots please......

  110. #110
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    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    518
    I love the lights! Is it too late to ask for a beam shot or did i miss it?

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