Hyperion EOS0610i charging MagicShine Battery...- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Hyperion EOS0610i charging MagicShine Battery...

    I think half the challenge with MagicShine battery longevity is the poor quality charger. The CC/CV algorithm used to charge lithium batteries is unique, and a good quality charger might help some of the battery longevity issues (irregardless of the imminent failure).

    I use a Hyperion EOS0610i Duo II RC charger for this purpose, I can charge two MS batteries at once, I also use a Lipo Sack just in case the battery fails....

    I set the battery capacity as 4800mAh.. does that sound about right for the MS battery? I read they are between 4800-5000mAh, but I didn't find anything on DE or other sites listing the actual cells used or capacity.











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    The cell MagicShine battery packs are 4,400mah. What's the purpose of setting the capacity? I thought the charge state was purely a function of the voltage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlownCivic
    The cell MagicShine battery packs are 4,400mah. What's the purpose of setting the capacity? I thought the charge state was purely a function of the voltage.
    To be honest I don't know if there is anything more to the charger knowing the capacity other than it attempts to charge the battery at 1S. So a 4800mAh pack would be charged at 4.8A. Of course, I set the capacity to 4800mAh, but then changed the charge amps to 1.8A and the Discharge amps to 1.0A.
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    I wish I could get a L-Ion battery pack with balance tabs... could use Li-Poly packs, but would need to devise some sort of low voltage cutoff when the cells drop to 3.0V.
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    have you checked the capacity of the MS packs?
    are they 2s2p?
    ...Scun.thorpe, UK

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    So 2P 2400mAh is?

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    Quote Originally Posted by HEY HEY ITS HENDO
    have you checked the capacity of the MS packs?
    are they 2s2p?

    They are indeed 2S2P. Still not sure which exact cells are used, most of these L-ION cells range from 2200mAh to 2800mAh.

    I head read somewhere that they were 4800mAh over all which would be 2200 mAh cells, but who really knows what's under that black plastic.
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    How does 2 x 2,200mah = 4,800mah?

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    i`m certain i read the claimed capacity is from 4.2v > 2.75v @ 0.5A ( for 1s)
    ...................MUCH less when you pull more Amps!
    you can get balance leads, just wire into your homemade pack

    http://scriptasylum.com/rc_speed/_lipo.html

    http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...0&postcount=29
    Last edited by HEY HEY ITS HENDO; 11-16-2010 at 05:23 PM.
    ...Scun.thorpe, UK

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    hmmm.. working out the capacity still.
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    ...Scun.thorpe, UK

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlownCivic
    How does 2 x 2,200mah = 4,800mah?
    2 x 2400mAh..

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlownCivic
    The cell MagicShine battery packs are 4,400mah. What's the purpose of setting the capacity? I thought the charge state was purely a function of the voltage.
    my hyperion charger uses the battery capacity figure to determine the charge rates

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    Quote Originally Posted by slidecontrol
    my hyperion charger uses the battery capacity figure to determine the charge rates
    Yes, that is exactly what the mah input is for. Also, I am sure that charger is capable, they can charge the packs at more than 1C. (2C, 5C+ so long as the pack is rated for such charge currents. Many of the Li-Po packs are able to do at least 2C now. Something else to consider is LiFePo4 (A123) batteries. they are more stable than LiPo as in if they get damaged they will not catch on fire or explode like LiPo can. Also, they are much more immune to damage from over discharge. A low voltage cut-off would still be a good idea, whether it is an actual cutoff or just an alarm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carraig042
    Yes, that is exactly what the mah input is for. Also, I am sure that charger is capable, they can charge the packs at more than 1C. (2C, 5C+ so long as the pack is rated for such charge currents. Many of the Li-Po packs are able to do at least 2C now. Something else to consider is LiFePo4 (A123) batteries. they are more stable than LiPo as in if they get damaged they will not catch on fire or explode like LiPo can. Also, they are much more immune to damage from over discharge. A low voltage cut-off would still be a good idea, whether it is an actual cutoff or just an alarm.

    -Brett

    I've seen some 5C batteries on the market, I can't imagine throwing 20A toward a battery, but it's possible. I rarely charge at above 1C even for 2/3C batteries. There are some LVCs available that go inline with the battery leads that can be used if someone wants to run a LiPo battery. They're designed for RC cars which have an ESC that doesn't support LVC internally.
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    I'm running the 26650 A123 LiFePo cells (4S4P) for a starter battery in my race car. These are rated for 70A continoues draw, and 120A 10 sec draw. However, they're somewhat low capacity: 2,300mah. The A123 LiFePo cells that are 18650 size are really low capacity (around 1,100mah, and only 3.3v). I think this is the reason they're not really suited to this application. The latest packs that I have built for lights are 2,900mah 18650 Samsung cells.

    The LiFePo A123 cells require the same protection as far as max charge voltage/max discharge voltage as the LiPo cells.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rearviewmirror
    hmmm.. working out the capacity still.
    I think you are over-thinking this whole thing. The charger you have is designed for RC enthusiast who are using Li-Po batteries and need to calculate runtime down to the sec. ( if possible ) to protect their RC'd *investment ( *crashing a RC plane can be expensive ) . Battery setups for those applications usual include inputs for battery balancing. This is not necessary for bike lights. Nevertheless some multi-cell Li-ion configurations include a PCB with circuits that balance the battery to some degree. In this application ( bike lights ) this is usually good enough. If you run out of juice on a bike ride you use your back-up with no worries ( or carry an extra battery ).

    The Magicshine batteries are likely cheap Chinese made cells with 2000-2200 listed mAh rating per cell. What the actual mAh rating is per cell is anyone's guess. If you are going to charge the Magicshine battery you need a charger designed to charge Li-ion cells. Standard charge rate is usually somewhere around 500-800ma. The charge voltage should be set to 8.4volts which in this case is the peak voltage of the M.S 7.4v Li-ion battery pack. I know there are fancy chargers that offer special charging patterns ( that vary the current input ) that" supposedly" can charge the cell better. After reading a couple articles on this subject I've come to the conclusion that even if that were true, in practical application, the idea of fretting over how many more minutes you can get out of a $4 Li-ion cell... ...well, it's just not worth the trouble or worth worrying about. Just charge the buggers to 4.2volts a cell using a standard Li-ion charger and stop worrying. Regardless of whats printed on the battery, capacity varies slightly from cell to cell anyway. Just remember, when it comes to batteries, you get what you pay for. Having a $269 charger isn't going to make a $4 cell run that much longer or better. If getting a handful of more minutes out of a cell ( or battery pack ) is that much of an issue it would make more sense to buy cells that have more capacity ( which I should add cost a bit more but might be more reliable ).
    Last edited by Cat-man-do; 11-17-2010 at 01:58 AM.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by rearviewmirror
    2 x 2400mAh..
    MS battery is 2*2200 mAh.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by rearviewmirror
    I think half the challenge with MagicShine battery longevity is the poor quality charger. The CC/CV algorithm used to charge lithium batteries is unique, and a good quality charger might help some of the battery longevity issues (irregardless of the imminent failure).
    Although the Li-Ion charging algorithm is unique, it is also very simple. The issues with the Magicshine batteries can not be fixed with a better charger unless you rewired it for a balanced charger. Here is a very informative post on the problems with MS batteries here:

    http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?...8&postcount=30
    Quote Originally Posted by MtbMacgyver
    I'll probably regret getting in the middle of this, but I will offer up the information I have based on some testing I did over the past week and a half. First, I want to be clear that I have no way to know of the specific issues that prompted Geoman to stop selling the lights and pursue a recall, I can only comment on what I observed in my testing. I also don't have a vested interest in this situation as I personally use my own lights and I do not offer them for sale.

    I have ties to a large local bike club, which includes a fair number of magicshine light users. Based on all the discussion on the forum about magicshine battery issues, I put out a query to the club to find out if many folks were experiencing battery problems. I quickly got a fair number of responses and was "loaned" a number of packs that were experiencing problems.

    I opened up the packs and ran them through a couple of cycles while instrumenting the current and voltage of each cell bank. What I found was that the packs were badly out of balance due to what are known as "soft shorts" within the cells. "Soft shorts" cause the cells to self-discharge at a higher rate than normal, which is what throws the pack out of balance. How quickly the pack goes out of balance depend purely on "time" and the extent of the soft short. Number of cycles or how the pack is cared for has little to no effect. This in itself isn't good for the pack, but it doesn't necessarily represent a safety issue. But, I also observed that the protection PCB lets the cells drop down to right below 2V on discharge. That's really below what is safe and can lead to cell damage that can cause a safety issue down the road.

    Based on what I found I decided to check a pack that didn't appear to be having obvious problems. I found that this pack was also out of balance, just not enough to be showing such obvious external problems. So these 2 issues are likely interacting with each other. Normally, the protection PCB should only stop charge or discharge in fairly rare cases as a last ditch safety protection. But in the case of the magicshine packs, the protection PCB is having to shutdown the charge / discharge on a large percentage of packs and is doing so on almost every charge cycle and many of the discharge cycles. That has two implications; first it means that even a few rare failures of the protection PCB have a much higher chance that normal of causing a safety issue with the pack. Second, it means the voltage thresholds for the protection PCB really need to be spot on and that doesn't appear to be true.

    The net is there really isn't anything the end user can do to in terms of how they care for or use the pack to guarantee that a problem won't occur. I say guarantee because, it's true that having an actual problem is probably somewhat rare. But on the other hand, these kinds of actions don't usually happen if there hasn't been some kind of real world problem. The engineer in me would say, follow the advice and stop using the packs. The mountain biker in me says, a lot of folks are going to keep using them, my advice is be really careful where you charge and store them. Problems are more likely while they are charging but can happen at any time.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by klynk
    MS battery is 2*2200 mAh.
    OK.. doesn't really matter.. charging them at 1.8A or less is the key.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do
    I think you are over-thinking this whole thing. The charger you have is designed for RC enthusiast who are using Li-Po batteries and need to calculate runtime down to the sec. ( if possible ) to protect their RC'd *investment ( *crashing a RC plane can be expensive ) . Battery setups for those applications usual include inputs for battery balancing. This is not necessary for bike lights. Nevertheless some multi-cell Li-ion configurations include a PCB with circuits that balance the battery to some degree. In this application ( bike lights ) this is usually good enough. If you run out of juice on a bike ride you use your back-up with no worries ( or carry an extra battery ).

    The Magicshine batteries are likely cheap Chinese made cells with 2000-2200 listed mAh rating per cell. What the actual mAh rating is per cell is anyone's guess. If you are going to charge the Magicshine battery you need a charger designed to charge Li-ion cells. Standard charge rate is usually somewhere around 500-800ma. The charge voltage should be set to 8.4volts which in this case is the peak voltage of the M.S 7.4v Li-ion battery pack. I know there are fancy chargers that offer special charging patterns ( that vary the current input ) that" supposedly" can charge the cell better. After reading a couple articles on this subject I've come to the conclusion that even if that were true, in practical application, the idea of fretting over how many more minutes you can get out of a $4 Li-ion cell... ...well, it's just not worth the trouble or worth worrying about. Just charge the buggers to 4.2volts a cell using a standard Li-ion charger and stop worrying. Regardless of whats printed on the battery, capacity varies slightly from cell to cell anyway. Just remember, when it comes to batteries, you get what you pay for. Having a $269 charger isn't going to make a $4 cell run that much longer or better. If getting a handful of more minutes out of a cell ( or battery pack ) is that much of an issue it would make more sense to buy cells that have more capacity ( which I should add cost a bit more but might be more reliable ).

    I agree about the expensive charger.. not saying one is required. However, the better chargers have much better protection if a fault is detected. Not sure how reliable the standard charger is if it detects anomalies in the battery resistance, or voltage. The Hyperion has a safety timer shutoff, and a temperature cut off as well. Two things that could very well save some property if the pack faults while charging. Lets face it, most of us to not "attend" to the pack while it's charging, I let it run in the garage in a Lipo sack. I have some trust in the Hyperion failsafe's, I have ZERO trust in the MS default charger.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rearviewmirror
    I agree about the expensive charger.. not saying one is required. However, the better chargers have much better protection if a fault is detected. Not sure how reliable the standard charger is if it detects anomalies in the battery resistance, or voltage. The Hyperion has a safety timer shutoff, and a temperature cut off as well. Two things that could very well save some property if the pack faults while charging. Lets face it, most of us to not "attend" to the pack while it's charging, I let it run in the garage in a Lipo sack. I have some trust in the Hyperion failsafe's, I have ZERO trust in the MS default charger.
    Congrats on using a Hyperion. It's vastly superior to just about any bike light charger.
    The charge profile of li-ion/polymer is exactly the same CC/CV. A cheap charger does it just as well as an expensive one.

    One big failure mode of the magicshine (and a bunch others as well) is the fact that the battery balance drifts over time. The balance of cheap batteries drifts a lot faster than good batteries. Most all bike chargers will charge to 8.4 volts so if one cell is 4.6 and the other is 3.8, the chargers does not know and this makes the overcharged battery much more volatile. The PCB voltage limits on the li-ion batteries is set pretty high and it's meant as a last ditch effort to keep voltage in check. It's not meant to hit that limit every charge.

    Do us a favor, when you complete a full charge of your battery - can you check the individual cell voltages?

    If you were really worried about a battery failure - I'd rig up a battery balancing cable from your li-ion battery to your Hyperion because they way you have it setup now - your Hyperion is charging your battery in exactly the same fashion as the MS charger.

    Oh, and one more thing - looking at the pics below: 215 milliohm?? Holy mega internal resistance. That battery sucks lol.

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