DIY 18650 Li-Ion Cell Holders, Take 2- Mtbr.com
Results 1 to 145 of 145
  1. #1
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sdnative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    336

    DIY 18650 Li-Ion Cell Holders, Take 2

    Hey all, some new stuff to share! Recently have been playing with some 2 part plastic resins, and after good strength results decided to make some new cell holder molds.

    High quality DIY holders for 18650 Li-Ion cells >>

    Several options and common wiring configs:

    2X - 3.7 or 7.4 Volts
    3X - 3.7 or 11.1 Volts
    4X - 3.7, 7.4 and 14.8 Volts
    5X - 3.7 and 18.5 Volts
    6X - 3.7, 7.4, 11.1, and 22.2 Volts

    Below are pics of my first parts. More to follow.

    Check out the Classifieds for more info. Here >>













    Questions?

    Take it easy! ~Chris

  2. #2
    Person
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    775
    I like them. Are they ready to ship?

    I looked at your ad and webpage and can't find your shipping cost. I live in Canada and hope you use USPS.

  3. #3
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sdnative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    336
    Hi,
    Thanks! ...they turned out nice quality wise, I'm happy!

    2 and 4's are ready to ship. Other configs will be ready and packaged by next week.

    I should have the web shopping stuff up this weekend ...some backend shopping cart links to sort out. This will include an 'official' shipping rate tool.

    I charge exactly what UPS / USPS charges me. USPS to canada (in a small flat bubble mailer) isn't very much at all ...few dollars as I recall. Cheap.

    http://www.usps.com/prices/first-class-mail-prices.htm (domestic)
    http://www.usps.com/prices/first-cla...nal-prices.htm (international)

  4. #4
    mtbr member
    Reputation: ktronik's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    424
    hey sexy as!!!

    Well done...

    K

  5. #5
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sdnative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    336
    Lol, thanks Kerry! Those CNC clear acrylic ones were killing me.

    BTW, if you had any issues with crazing (cracking) on those acrylic's, I will replace with these. I had one of my own, only one, that had some crazing caused by those pesky retaining clip tangs. (usually the solder heat melts the tang in a little preventing this). Was the last straw for using acrylic.

    Anyay, been quite a crazy feeling time in the DIY light world these days; I've been keepin watch on your new stuff Sure theres some other secrets floating around in your workshop too.

    PS, Have a look in October, Mountain Bike Action, Lighting Your Own Way" (if you get it / can find it over there). I managed to get my mug & DIY kits graced on a 2 page spread. Those guys over there rock, and like keeping the content fresh for their readers. Should be good for a least a few US sales right!

    Take er easy.

    ~C

  6. #6
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Cat-man-do's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    6,336
    SD, where are these being shipped from? I'm just trying to estimate shipping cost.

  7. #7
    I like bloody ankles
    Reputation: dsjc's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    139
    Looking good sdnative !

    I'm in for a 6 holder to wire up a 3s2p for my dual P7 light. Just received 6 of the "true 2400" cells from DX for this purpose.

    For what its worth, the acrylic 4 holder I got from you a few months back has held up fine so far.....

  8. #8
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sdnative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    336
    ----Deleted USPS rate tool link ------

    Going flat rate shipping, calc'ing each was becoming a chore.

    Parts ship out of San Diego, CA

  9. #9
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    8
    Hi,
    are you considering making holders for CR123A batteries?

  10. #10
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    778
    Just wondering, do your holders have anything to facilitate mounting and strain relief for a power cord? The adapters look great, but with my knack of damaging things I would be worried about my wiring not holding up.
    22 Pride

  11. #11
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sdnative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    336
    Hey, feel ya there. They are very tough holders, will take a trail beating that's for sure. With the velcro strap, and extra strengthening / containing sides, the batteries aren't going anywhere in the rough stuff.

    As far as strain relief I have included a zip tie for fastening the loose connector to the other wiring. This makes for a VERY strong connection, but also allows for a small degree of side-to-side motion similar to a strain relief.

    Below is from my older clear holders, same zip tie action holds true though. (you pull it tight and cut off the loose end obviously) ~Chris


  12. #12
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sdnative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    336
    Quote Originally Posted by punk0
    Hi,
    are you considering making holders for CR123A batteries?
    Nah, but curious, why would you want to use 123A's over 18650's?

    18650's are just matched so nicely burn-time-wise with high po LED's.

  13. #13
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    8
    I have a modified light, that doesn't have enough room for a 18650, but can fit 2 123A's side by side.

  14. #14
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    3,829
    Quote Originally Posted by sdnative
    As far as strain relief I have included a zip tie for fastening the loose connector to the other wiring. This makes for a VERY strong connection, but also allows for a small degree of side-to-side motion similar to a strain relief.

    Below is from my older clear holders, same zip tie action holds true though. (you pull it tight and cut off the loose end obviously) ~Chris

    I would not use a ziptie to another wire for a "strain relief". Your design would readily accept a screwed down plastic wire clip or ziptie anchor.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  15. #15
    mtbr member
    Reputation: mojojojoaf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    757
    With a cell holder of this type can I recharge through the holder/pack or should remove cells to recharge? doesn't matter just the best method is requested.

  16. #16
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sdnative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    336
    Quote Originally Posted by mojojojoaf
    With a cell holder of this type can I recharge through the holder/pack or should remove cells to recharge? doesn't matter just the best method is requested.
    Best to use a stand alone charger for each cell. This allows each cell to charge "safely" to it's max power potential.

    When you charge packs, there is an issue/concern with cells sharing the charge current evenly.

    Overcharging Li-Ion is bad Umm ka ...booom! Best to play it safe (or add fancy electronics)

  17. #17
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sdnative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    336
    Quote Originally Posted by Vancbiker
    I would not use a ziptie to another wire for a "strain relief". Your design would readily accept a screwed down plastic wire clip or ziptie anchor.
    Agree that could be added easily.

    But, uhhhh, hows that adding anything much different than the zip tie? Playing devils advocate here, but that's not an "official" strain relief either....just more of the same.

    The zip tie works surprisingly well actually. Although tight/strong enough to prevent damage from tugging, it allows for some added rotation about the other wire (prevents hard over bending). Not perfect by any means, but cost effective and simple.

  18. #18
    mtbr member
    Reputation: mojojojoaf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    757
    SD, thanks and I sent you a pm.

  19. #19
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    3,829
    Quote Originally Posted by sdnative
    Agree that could be added easily.

    But, uhhhh, hows that adding anything much different than the zip tie? Playing devils advocate here, but that's not an "official" strain relief either....just more of the same.

    The zip tie works surprisingly well actually. Although tight/strong enough to prevent damage from tugging, it allows for some added rotation about the other wire (prevents hard over bending). Not perfect by any means, but cost effective and simple.
    We might be using different terms here. I define strain relief for wiring as the elimination of strain on a connection. By tieing the light power cord to another wire you are just transferring the potential for breakage from one set of soldered connections to another set of soldered connections. If you clamp the light power cord to the body of the holder then the strain of a snag or other mishap is not transferred to a soldered connection. If minimizing wire flexing or tight bending at the point of strain relief is needed, (I think it is a good idea when using the type wire in your picture) then application of a layer or two of heat shrink tubing, preferably adhesive lined, works for the low volume builder.

  20. #20
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sdnative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    336
    Quote Originally Posted by Vancbiker
    We might be using different terms here.
    Follow your line of thinking now, and generally agree with what you're saying. Are good ideas.

  21. #21
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sdnative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    336

    123A Holders anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by punk0
    I have a modified light, that doesn't have enough room for a 18650, but can fit 2 123A's side by side.
    Punk0, can you fit a 2X-123A Holder in your case? Keep in mind it would have to have room for the spring clips and body of the holder.

    Does anyone else out there need 123A holders? Survey says whether or not I make some.

    Takers for 123A holders?

  22. #22
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sdnative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    336
    Quick update. Working on the 6x and 3 X mold right now. Should have units ready to ship by next monday!

  23. #23
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sdnative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    336
    Quote Originally Posted by sdnative
    Does anyone else out there need 123A holders? Survey says whether or not I make some.

    Takers for 123A holders?

    Buuuller, Buuuller ....Ferris Buller?

    Anyone alive out there? Not looking good Punk0

  24. #24
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sdnative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    336
    6X and 3X ready to ship.

    Check out top of thread for picture updates!

    6X turned out top notch!!

  25. #25
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    19
    Hey sdnative,

    Approximately how large is the 2x (including your trustfire cells). I am looking at fitting a 2x holder into a case, but may need to shave down the height and length to fit my dimensions.

    Thanks,
    Bryce

  26. #26
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sdnative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    336
    Quote Originally Posted by bryceorama
    Hey sdnative,

    Approximately how large is the 2x (including your trustfire cells). I am looking at fitting a 2x holder into a case, but may need to shave down the height and length to fit my dimensions.

    Thanks,
    Bryce
    The max possible height is 0.85in, 0.72 wide, and 3.44 long. The height is really the dimension that is subject to variation, as this is an open surface during the mold process.

    I also have a 2X that is too thin (height is low), can throw that into a buy.

    The plastic is pretty easy to sand down, or it can be shaved down with sharper tools.

    After sanding (rough surface) the plastic accepts spray paint very well. Could end up with a custom color holder. I have a dark blue holder that turned out nice. Has a very smooth high gloss finish and is almost too nice for DIY

  27. #27
    mtbr member
    Reputation: mojojojoaf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    757
    SD I am really looking forward to getting my cell holders- although I still dont have batteries I want to get them wired up and ready to go.

  28. #28
    I like bloody ankles
    Reputation: dsjc's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    139
    Looking forward to the 6 pack holder myself - I have 6 new "True 2400" cells waiting to configure in 3s2p for my dual R2 helmet light

  29. #29
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sdnative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    336
    Quote Originally Posted by mojojojoaf
    SD I am really looking forward to getting my cell holders- although I still dont have batteries I want to get them wired up and ready to go.
    Got cells coming yet? I have about QTY 20 - 2 packs of unprotected Trustfire 2500mAh li-ion's on the shelf. You just have to be more power cautious when going on a long rides with them that's all. Have the nice two channel chargers also. Interested?

  30. #30
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sdnative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    336
    Quote Originally Posted by dsjc
    Looking forward to the 6 pack holder myself - I have 6 new "True 2400" cells waiting to configure in 3s2p for my dual R2 helmet light
    Ahh, your'e killin me! dsjc's 6 holder; have it sitting in a bag waiting ...just waiting ...for me to break the 12+ hr wk day cycle and hit the single track you keep talking about

    Dual R2, that will run forever! Figured it was for the dual P7....or another ya got in the works.

    Supposed to go to tunnels today / tomorrow for a look (serious this time). Night ride even, I have 7 lights all charged up and ready to go (none of my friends seem to own lights...at least good lights I mean ). Not 100% sure on the OPEN status still. Will report on that. Feel like a broken record saying that.

    Scuba diving trip this Sat, Sunday gotta get website checkout cart stuff done, just in time to start work Monday AM . See how that spare time get's eaten up!! I think I need to bail on the whole work thing ...not so fun way to live.

  31. #31
    mtbr member
    Reputation: mojojojoaf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    757
    Quote Originally Posted by sdnative
    Got cells coming yet? I have about QTY 20 - 2 packs of unprotected Trustfire 2500mAh li-ion's on the shelf. You just have to be more power cautious when going on a long rides with them that's all. Have the nice two channel chargers also. Interested?

    Its the money $$$$$$$ - I dont have the cash yet- end of month but I wanted to go protected cells.

  32. #32
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sdnative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    336
    Quote Originally Posted by mojojojoaf
    Its the money $$$$$$$ - I dont have the cash yet- end of month but I wanted to go protected cells.
    Got ya. They're all pretty cheap from DX, till you buy 20+ packs you don't end up using

  33. #33
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    251
    How about a round holder so it would fit partly around the stem?

  34. #34

  35. #35
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sdnative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    336
    Lumious DIY version 2.0 will have a direct frame mount; i think that's what you're talking about? Was looking at it but got turned off by the more complicated mold I would need, and the versitility (and sellability) of the non-frame mounted style was a plus for that direction. (I could make for my own systems, and sell as stand alone holder too).

    At some point the big guys are going to move in and make high volume cheapo injection molded holders anyway, them I'm dead, and they're in for that 40-80K investment and the long haul. Will stay ahead of them feature wise and go for the niche buyers when that happens though.

    PS, the square holders fit in my little bag and them velcro up under the stem. Works well, even if the plastic isn't special fitted for it.

  36. #36
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sdnative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    336
    For those of you waiting, managed to catch up this weekend, so everything should ship tomorrow. Thanks

  37. #37
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sdnative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    336

    Custom Colors

    Ok, so a cream color isn't for everyone. Functional but pretty unexciting. But ...with a little bit of work you can make your holder any color you want!!

    Gather the materials. A $2 cheapo can of any color works, some fine sand paper, and about 30 minutes of spare time.



    Sand every surface untill the appearance is dull / has no reflection. Then sand a little more to be 100% sure.



    Wash it well with soap, then rise



    Dry off, get all the little places, maybe even set aside to air dry for a few minutes



    Hit it with a few light coats of spray. Repeat as necessary to build up a good gloss layer. Then flip it once the paint is dry and repeat to get the other side.



    Bammm ...now even my holder can blind some night critters.



    Allow to dry overnight, then apply clips and labels. Custom

  38. #38
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    47
    Looking good Chris! I was thinking about doing the same thing. Shame shame, you forgot the clearcoat

  39. #39
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sdnative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    336
    Quote Originally Posted by kcalvano
    Looking good Chris! I was thinking about doing the same thing. Shame shame, you forgot the clearcoat
    But it's glossy paint

    And here I though the first comment might be "the 80's called and wants it's tacky color back"

    If you do paint them, I can warn you to make sure that you sand ALL surfaces very well and evenly. Doesn't have to be deep or rought to the touch, and shouldn't be (use fine sandpaper), but you just need to break ALL the gloss.

  40. #40
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    8
    Quote Originally Posted by sdnative
    Punk0, can you fit a 2X-123A Holder in your case? Keep in mind it would have to have room for the spring clips and body of the holder.
    Yes, I can fit all of that.
    Looks like there isn't much demand for CR123 holders.
    Does any one know where I can find one?

    Thanks.

  41. #41
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sdnative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    336
    Quote Originally Posted by punk0
    Looks like there isn't much demand for CR123 holders.
    Does any one know where I can find one?
    Ya, not any takers. Sorry.

    Are the cells similar in diameter to the 18650's?

  42. #42
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    8
    123's are 17mm in diameter and 34.5mm in length.
    18650's are 18mm in diameter and 66mm in length.

  43. #43

    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    3
    I received my battery holders in yesterday's mail. I wired up one of the 4X's last night 1S4P to a P7 Marwi conversion I got from Doug Hoffman. Works like a champ! I was a little worried that the spring clip battery terminals wouldn't engage tightly to the battery ends. Not so; it all fits together very snugly. The velcro strap also provides a good amount of strain relief on my cord to the lamp head. I found a camera bag that is a perfect size to hold the battery pack. It's a Mountainsmith Cyber II XS, available many places. The only "snag" is the hooks on the outside of the battery strap adhere themselves to the fuzzy cloth padding of the bag. It requires some technique to get the pack into and out of the bag, but no big deal. All-in-all, I'm very happy with it. Nice job, Chris!
    Attached Images Attached Images

  44. #44
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    47
    Nice setup Tube. I'll be in the Marwi P7 conversion club as soon as my package arrives from Doug. I'm pretty stoked to get it and put them together. If you have a chance, I would love to see a beamshot of that little silver critter
    Thanks for the headsup on the camera bag. Can you tell me if two of those 4x holders will fit, thanks.
    BTW, I'm not sure that's the best place to mount the battery pack
    Last edited by kcalvano; 08-25-2009 at 05:43 PM.

  45. #45

    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    3
    >>BTW, I'm not sure that's the best place to mount the battery pack
    Yeah, huh, I was havin a hard time seeing where I was going...

    >>...on the camera bag. Can you tell me if two of those 4x holders will fit
    Yes, that's a loaded 4X in the camera bag in my photos. It's a really good fit, and the bag has strong velcro straps that will attach it to a top tube, belt, etc.

  46. #46
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    47
    Thanks

  47. #47
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sdnative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    336
    Quote Originally Posted by TubeStake
    ...The velcro strap also provides a good amount of strain relief on my cord to the lamp head. ....The only "snag" is the hooks on the outside of the battery strap adhere themselves to the fuzzy cloth padding of the bag. ....All-in-all, I'm very happy with it. Nice job, Chris!
    Thanks for the thumbs! Good to see the public approval.

    Ahh yes, that vecro bugged me too for a while, then dawned on me to flip the straps fuzzy side out! Problem goes away

    Also, forgot to, or not sure I mentioned it ...but the plastic drills very easy. With wire holes it allows for routing the wire down the middle of the holder (beside the cells) to join up with the other wire ...and zip tie. My falut for lagging on that tidbit

    Hey, was impressed you got all the wires in the hoops! Way more patient than me that's for sure. I just solder right to the side of the clip as I can't ever get those hooked with my 18Ga wire.

    Nice pics too. Got some color cordination w/ wires I see, that helps.

    Oh yeah, and use a black sharpie to change the - to + on the stickers, so the polarity reads right. Now I tell ya

  48. #48
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sdnative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    336
    Hey, FYI, some options I've had success with here >> http://www.luminousdiy.com/Eva%20Gallery.htm ...scroll down to the middle. Similar page is there for the helmet rig.

    ~C

  49. #49

    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    3
    >>...then dawned on me to flip the straps fuzzy side out! Problem goes away<<
    Duh, now why didn't I think of that.

    I considered drilling and running wires under the batteries, but got impatient and wanted to light it up. I'll re-do it eventually...maybe. Right now it's hard-wired from battery pack to lamp head, but I may add detachable connectors and go with a heavier wire gage to the battery pack.

    BTW, that eva-lution light is a nice piece of machine work.

  50. #50
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sdnative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    336

    2500 Lumens anyone??

    Quote Originally Posted by TubeStake
    ...I'll re-do it eventually...maybe....

    BTW, that eva-lution light is a nice piece of machine work.
    Nice thing about solder and wire is it's always changable!

    FYI, I use just straight DC connectors and found them to be ok; cheap too. Get the big ones if you do though (5.5x2.5mm), as these have a pretty firm connection (if not can bend in some of the contactor).

    Thanks, did you see the new surface finish? I really need to update the website but have been swamped with other stuff. The Eva's turned out ok machining wise. Can honestly say they were a more pure performance design than anything; not a ton of aesthetic appeal (had to fend off a few boxlight comments). I really wanted to produce a nice looking circular style, but the cooling just isn't there. Just too far a path for the heat to travel to keep the temp as low as possible. It isn't a good design, so had to bail that config. My design on the other hand kicks serious ass ...no really!

    ANyway ...please PM me know if any issues come up with the holders. Thxs ~C


  51. #51
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sdnative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    336

    Assembly guides?

    I have a few kicking around that are partial finished ...various voltage configuration assembly guides that is. Any LuminousDIY holder owner interested in a wiring guide? ANy non-owners interested?

    Post or PM me.

    Have a good weekend!

  52. #52
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    188
    I know what everyone will say, get into the 2000's!

    BUT, I am thinking about a couple holders, either a 4 or 6 cell, 2s/2p, or 2s/3p to wire for 7.4v. I would be using these to power a couple 6v Haologen (I know, I know!!!!) Vistalites (gets even better, right! lol). I would be getting Trustfires from DX. I currently have a few 18650's for my LG mini, and thought about resurrecting the Vistalites for more light.

    Any issues with 18650's powering halogens?

    T.Y!
    Chris

    ps: If I need to start a new thread, just let me know!

  53. #53
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sdnative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    336
    It's fine about piggy backing on my thread. It's related to battery holders, and Li-Ion are FOR SURE a way to bring power hungry lights like halogens back into the DIY arena ...and honestly anything (other than slammin my stuff) to keep me alive in the forum is happy to me. So, onward ...

    I would check this link first, look at the ugly halogen color After going LED, I can personally say ...I don't think I'm ever goin back. LED's are just getting better and better too >> http://www.luminousdiy.com/Technical%20Info.htm#vision

    Not to squash the idea or anything, as I have seen "decent" results when you overdrive the halogen bulbs since they tend to run a little hotter and therefore less yellow ( Example, Drive 6 volt bulbs at 7+ Volts), and honestly for a long time I was drawn to it myself since bulbs are sooo dam cheap ($2 - 4), so even after overdriving and killing a few bulbs per season the price is still low. ...so suffice to say there are some real benefits.

    Problem becomes this though ...you need to be able to regulate that voltage extremely well to harness all that Li-Ion juice! You need something similar to what all the LED guys are using, but instead of a constant current driver, you need a constant voltage driver (I can guess these are very avilable, as many LED drivers have a voltage IC at the heart of the driver).

    Reason being is this >> Li-Ion's usable voltage ranges from 4.2 volts to 3 Volts. Wired in II this becomes 8.2 - 6 volts (FYI, most of the burn time is over when it hit's ~3.5V). So, if 8.2 doesn't burn out the 6V halogen (that's ~30% overdrive, so I doubt it will last long) you may be in business. (PS, did the math and 3X doesn't work to well for 12V bulbs)

    Ideally, you would have an "Adjust" knob/pot, where you could dial in a specific voltage so you would have a constant voltage/brightness, optimal bulb light, and longest possible burn time. Sounds like a fun project, but i"m busy making those 2000+ lumen lights you're talking about needing (at least I think that's what you were talking about, as two 2500mah in II would be 5000mah).

    In any case, I would plan on getting some 6X Luminous DIY holders to drive this 20+W beast you are planning You'll need it, as watt for watt halogens come up short in the efficiency department.

    Let me know how I can help ~C

  54. #54
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sdnative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    336

    Good job! Routing Wires

    The holders can be easily drilled to accomodate a variety of wire routing needs. I recommend to use as small a drill as possible, and to drill on line with the clip "U's" as this will pop the hole out right above the center divider.

    When installed, the wire runs in the space beside each cell. Note pic below


  55. #55
    mtbr member
    Reputation: mojojojoaf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    757
    Finally got some batteries and ran them in my cell holders and all is well. Wired in parallel and no problems and hold batteries securely with velcro strap. I just need to find a good little case for them now.

    SD great little product. I actually put a couple of holes in the sides of mine to use zip ties to lightly cinch down the wires so as not to pull them out.
    Last edited by mojojojoaf; 09-03-2009 at 09:38 PM.

  56. #56
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    1,322
    Ran my 6x in series. Tried to minimize any external wire routes.
    This pictures shows small sections of wire soldered between the two top right battery contacts. Top left connector connects to the one directly below it via small hole drilled through battery bed. Also to be seen is the connector wire leaving through holes drilled in the lower right corner.


    This second image shows similar routing, but with the single wire on the top left exiting the holder via a small hole.


    Side 2 just shows more of the series connections and wire routing.





    Soldering to the inside of the clips doesn't seem to decrease their flexibility or function. Been on several rides with this pack and never seen the light flicker.
    Velcro added to holder to keep additional velcro loops from moving around.
    If you need 22 + volts this is the best way to do it.

  57. #57
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    1,088
    Received my 6x holders today. They look great, really exceeded my expectations! They look really professional and the details like included decals, velcro, and zip ties were a nice touch. Shipping to Canada was cheap, couldn't be happier

  58. #58
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sdnative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    336
    Hey guys, I am very happy that you all like the holders, and I'm glad they are working out well for you. It took a lot of work to get the product to where it is, so good to see it's paying off.

    Texas, it looks like you went on a murder spree with that holder! ...all that red marker. DIY awesome! You soldered on the inside of the inner clip; that's a great idea, hadn't thought of that!

    Mojo, sorry for lagging on those cells. Life is too busy at times to keep it all in order.

    FYI to those reading: The " - " on the stickers can be changed to " + " with a black pen as needed for your wiring scheme . Makes for an easy and clean way to keep things straight, and still use the water proof / smuge proof plastic stickers.

    Keep em coming guys, great to see the feedback!!

  59. #59
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    1,322
    The holders do look very nice, but I am a function over form sort of guy. I had wired the holder a while back but didn't post since it is so ugly.......... It is almost fugly thread worthy.
    I just went crazy with the sharpie markers both in the battery bed and at the terminals. Since the battery contacts are all the same type I wanted to make sure that confusion was minimized regarding battery direction. You know, dark trail, worst case scenario sort of things.....
    I posted just to show the routing. I think the interal jumps look good and work very well. Just sharing problem solving. You know, that DIY thing we all are addicted to............

  60. #60
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sdnative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    336
    Quote Originally Posted by odtexas
    The holders do look very nice, but I am a function over form sort of guy. I had wired the holder a while back but didn't post since it is so ugly.......... It is almost fugly thread worthy.
    I just went crazy with the sharpie markers both in the battery bed and at the terminals. Since the battery contacts are all the same type I wanted to make sure that confusion was minimized regarding battery direction. You know, dark trail, worst case scenario sort of things.....
    I posted just to show the routing. I think the interal jumps look good and work very well. Just sharing problem solving. You know, that DIY thing we all are addicted to............
    Ah come on, fugly thread, they're not THAT bad. Just lots of marks here and there, and I for sure live in that function over form world of yours so know exactly what you're talking about.

    Appreciate the sharing regardless, as it opened up another solder option. Altough I'm a tad concerned if that is inhibiting proper spring function.

    Addicted ...what's that I can stop whenever I want, I swear I can, just after this one last one ...as I go back into the machine shop to finish up some 3-Axis CNC code to run Luminous Parts ....on a beautiful Sat afternoon, 1 mile from the beach, which is sprawling with bikini clad SoCal chickas. Uhh huh, no problems here.

  61. #61
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sdnative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    336
    Quote Originally Posted by mojojojoaf
    Finally got some batteries and ran them in my cell holders and all is well. Wired in parallel and no problems and hold batteries securely with velcro strap. I just need to find a good little case for them now.

    SD great little product. I actually put a couple of holes in the sides of mine to use zip ties to lightly cinch down the wires so as not to pull them out.
    Hey mojo, got a picture you can put up? If convenient to do...

    Thxs

  62. #62
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sdnative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    336
    The"edit" link is gone from my original post, so forced to add this comment in the treads.

    What I offer are DIY kits. You will get the parts as pictured above, and you will need to supply the wiring and wire harness for your particular light. Wiring is entirely up to you.

    Due to the volume of email questions and paypal's with wiring instructions attached, this obviously wasn't clear, and I apologize.

    Keep em coming



    PS, are there any other physical config's for 18650 cells that anyone out there is after??

  63. #63
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    1,322
    A flat pack 4 would be nice.
    Square 4 packs are OK, but I find flatter packs easier to mount and load.
    If you make the 4 then you can do the double sided pour and have an 8 cell holder available.
    With the higher voltage/Amp drivers being made by George at Taskled.com, and these monster lights like Troutie's quad and Deesta's triple, some higher voltage and greater mAh packs make sense.
    BTW I am very happy with my 6 cell holder of yours.
    Just imagine how big of a light I could build with a 30 V battery pack.

  64. #64
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sdnative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    336
    Great inputs. Appreciate it!! Glad to hear, they're really 'holding' up ...dun dun chingh

    Will leak some info ...working on that 8 and 10 cell concept, and the Luminous DIY lights to match

    But, my 8 was leaning more twards an inline frame contoured pkg, as that could be very low profile and mount under most upper frame tubes. However, a side by side 8 or 10 could mount in the front frame V instead, so ...

    Where about do you hold the flat 4? Camelbak pocket?

    JUST IMAGINE HOW BIG A LIGHT WITH A 10 CELL PACK COULD BE!!

  65. #65
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sdnative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    336
    So, a flat 4 cell, adding that one.

    CPF guys are after me for larger flat packs so they can do their super chargers. Anyone else prefer large flat arrays to back to backs? IE, 6 cells in a row, as opposed to 3 back to back.

    Flats go into camel bak large pockets pretty nice.

  66. #66
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    3

    Are the holders still available?

    I click on your link and the classified add comes up as removed..

  67. #67
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    3

    Never mind

    I see you can order the holders from Luminous DIY..

  68. #68
    I like bloody ankles
    Reputation: dsjc's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    139
    Flat packs make good sense to me, like you mentioned they would be better than back to back holders for the camelback, although the 3x2 back to back format does work well in a water bottle type carrier....

  69. #69
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sdnative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    336
    Quote Originally Posted by dsjc
    Flat packs make good sense to me, like you mentioned they would be better than back to back holders for the camelback, although the 3x2 back to back format does work well in a water bottle type carrier....
    Ya agree on the bottle cage comment; fits perfectly there.

    Thoughts are that a flat 6 (or 8) cell could slide in right next to the H20 bag, or down an outer long mesh compartment. Most bags have one of the other of these. Gotta watch that leaking water though

  70. #70
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    447
    speaking of that what are folks using to hold and/or protect these battery holders? can't just dip them like R/C batteries. Water is a concern as is a pack to hold them for when they're mounted to the bike.

  71. #71
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sdnative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    336
    Quote Originally Posted by racerdave
    speaking of that what are folks using to hold and/or protect these battery holders? can't just dip them like R/C batteries. Water is a concern as is a pack to hold them for when they're mounted to the bike.
    Me, nothing flashy. Just a zip lock baggie (if I expect rain). I zip the bag as much as possible and push the whole thing into the camera bag. Bag frame mounts, and usually it's up high on a top tube or stem, so pretty protected from tire splashes. When in the camel bak, not really an issue at all.

    Camera bags seem to vary also, so often you can find one that is fairly water proof.

    Also, I don't like riding in the rain, sooo, for the most part haven't have to worry too much. A little moisture from the occasional stream crossing doesn't seem to get inside the camera pouch in any case. Not everyone is so lucky with good San Diego weather though

    ....so any good suggestions out there???

  72. #72
    mtbr member
    Reputation: mojojojoaf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    757
    Camera bag- works for me lined with a ziploc baggie as well.

    I am also looking for smallish aluminum boxes I can line with foam rubber padding. I am also converting an old small water bottle into a battery holder.

  73. #73
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    132
    Id just like to thank sdnative for the holders and batteries that i have recieved, they do look excelent. Had them sent down to Aus, and they arived very quickly.

    Thanks for a great little product

    Stu
    Defcon Cycles - Brisbane Australia

  74. #74
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sdnative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    336
    Quote Originally Posted by stu44
    Id just like to thank sdnative for the holders and batteries that i have recieved, they do look excelent. Had them sent down to Aus, and they arived very quickly.

    Thanks for a great little product

    Stu
    Thanks Stu! Glad they arrived safe and appreciate your vote.

    Best ~Chris

  75. #75
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sdnative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    336
    Quote Originally Posted by mojojojoaf
    Camera bag- works for me lined with a ziploc baggie as well.

    I am also looking for smallish aluminum boxes I can line with foam rubber padding. I am also converting an old small water bottle into a battery holder.
    Good point on the water bottle!! Cheap, easy, and very waterproof.

    I forgot the bottle concept. ...and here I've been riding around with my NiteRider 12 Watt LED conversion light. After unscrewing the top potion of the old NiCad battery bottle and removing the contents, was able to fit a 6Xholder in there very nicely. I used a little foam on the bottom and sides to keep it from bouncing around inside the bottle.

    6X holder fits nicely inside a standard water bottle (so does the 4X) ...but you have to make a cut around the outside to get a large enough opening to fit it in. I suggest looking for old Niterider bottles (eBay??) as these have a nice unscrewable top. You can also use the old cable.

    Good stuff, thanks for mentioning!

  76. #76
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    447
    Yep, I forgot about the water bottle as well. I'm thinking the 6x as well, so that might be the best option. If I use it to power a headlight, I think I will just put it in the top pocket of a camelback or something. The baggie option would probably work well in any non-frame-mounted application.

    Thanks guys.

  77. #77
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sdnative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    336
    Quote Originally Posted by racerdave
    Yep, I forgot about the water bottle as well. I'm thinking the 6x as well, so that might be the best option. If I use it to power a headlight, I think I will just put it in the top pocket of a camelback or something. The baggie option would probably work well in any non-frame-mounted application.

    Thanks guys.
    6x opens up some serious power + burntime options too; 2000+ lumen here I come!

  78. #78
    mtbr member
    Reputation: turboferret's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    94
    What do they say - imitation is the sincerest form of flattery?

    From my thread back in November last year

    Quote Originally Posted by sdnative
    Seriously?!? good luck making these parts bro! They would be hard to mold even for the pros.

    KISS is in order here (keep it simple stupi...)

    Use a 4x C" size battery pack holder which sell for ~$2, and make plastic tubes that slip over the 18650 to make them C's. If they are not long enough, make little aluminum end caps to increase the length. If too short, cut the holders down the middle to widen them. Bigger size, but cheap, fast to make and basically light too.

    Or use PVC plastic pipe etc. to fashion up the array. Candlepower or the like had some posts like this but for AA's.
    Tis a shame that these aren't patentable, but I suppose someone has to do it first, then open up the floodgates for the copiers

    Cheers, Rich
    Last edited by turboferret; 10-15-2009 at 11:51 PM.

  79. #79
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    1,322
    It's the DIY forum here.
    sdnative and El34 both commented in your thread.
    Now they both sell battery holders.
    One should take it as flattery especially when they share ideas on the DIY forum.
    That is what this forum is all about........
    I have holders from both Turboferret and sdnative. Quality of both is very good.
    I prefer the 2 cell holder by Turboferret. It is slightly smaller and mounts to the helmet better.
    The six cell holder by sdnative is very good though, and available without special request.
    I am a flatpack sort of guy. I don't like square bricks. Still hoping someone makes a flat 4 or 5 pack.

    In the end it is a small market here. Build because its your hobby.
    Selling your goods to your fellow DIY'ers is a public service and I really do appreciate being able to buy these quality holders from fellow hobbiests.

  80. #80
    mtbr member
    Reputation: turboferret's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    94
    Sorry, had an inappropriate smiley at the end, which didn't put quite the right spin on what I meant - edited now

    I'm glad that I managed to prove that these are useful, and manufacturing them is a viable prospect for even the home DIYer, hopefully this opens up a whole new world of possibilities for other things in plastic/resin.

    I'd be the first to admit that it was inspiration from another thread that caused me to try making holders in the first place, and after initally looking to use a route which El34 now uses, went with cast resin.

    SD's holders look like excellent quality, and I'm about to order some Marwi bits from El, so no hard feelings meant

    Cheers, Rich

  81. #81
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sdnative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    336
    Seriously? ...please go revive your old thread if you are bitter about something. I don't agree with what you wrote but feel it is better discussed in private, PM sent.

    No matter who came first, all the MTBR and CPF folks can benefit from my hard work and a little market competition ... "floodgates" = 1 person ??

    As for my design, I followed a similar process of necessity and discovery that lead me to my final streamlined design; previously on the quote I had not ever needed a holder as I was using NiMh. FYI, I also previously sold an acrylic machined design over 6+ months ago ...was cost prohibitive and was forced to switch.

    Anyway


  82. #82
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sdnative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    336
    Quote Originally Posted by odtexas
    Still hoping someone makes a flat 4 or 5 pack.
    Good comments.

    Flat packs are coming. 4 cell for sure, likely 5 & 6 too as I need them for luminousdiy. Is all about working with shifting priorities, as the new XPG design stuff has me wrapped up currently

    Making 2000+ lumens just has more allure than battery packs doesn't it!

  83. #83
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sdnative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    336

    4 & 6 cell flat packs are a few days away

    Holder updates!

    I have templates for the new flat 4 and 6 cell pack holders finished, and tomorrow plan to make the molds.

    In 1-2 days, I should have some first off parts and pictures to share.

    The config will be flat for low profile camelbak pocket storage (can be put against blatter, outer long packet, etc), and will be similar to the current 2 & 3 cell in appearance. Only difference will be the brace that runs across the middle to add some needed bending strength.

    Prices will be similar to the current, but exact will soon follow!

    These are going to have a nice first class finish, as I can now say I've mastered the process

    ......

  84. #84
    Bandolero
    Reputation: notaknob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    2,437

    This Dat Beat

    Quote Originally Posted by sdnative
    Holder updates!

    I have templates for the new flat 4 and 6 cell pack holders finished, and tomorrow plan to make the molds.

    In 1-2 days, I should have some first off parts and pictures to share.
    Have you found time to crank out any 4 cell flat packs? I've recently been informed that a 6 XPG light should be on it's way across the pond to ABQ and I'll need a 14.8v battery to power it.
    Slow-core. -.. .-. .. -. -.- .... --- -- . -... .-. . .--

  85. #85
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sdnative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    336
    Quote Originally Posted by notaknob
    Have you found time to crank out any 4 cell flat packs? I've recently been informed that a 6 XPG light should be on it's way across the pond to ABQ and I'll need a 14.8v battery to power it.
    Flat pack molds are done, just need to take / post pics in the thread and update the website. Pics will follow after work today, stay tuned!

  86. #86
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sdnative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    336

    NEW FLAT PACK HOLDERS w/ PICS



    New holder molds came out nice, first off part pic's below ...prices to soon follow!

    Note these are an entirely 1 piece molded part; it's not simply 2-2X's or 2-3X's glued together.
    Luminous DIY makes only the strongest and most durable high quality holders!


    4X flat pack


    6X flat pack

  87. #87
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sdnative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    336

    Balance charging

    Quote Originally Posted by mojojojoaf
    With a cell holder of this type can I recharge through the holder/pack or should remove cells to recharge? doesn't matter just the best method is requested.
    The guys over on CPF are using Luminous DIY holders to make some great charging rigs. The stuff they are doing could easily be applied to allow for in-pack charging if so desired. Link with more info is here >>

  88. #88
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sdnative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    336
    For those waiting, website is now updated.

  89. #89
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sdnative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    336

    Closed for the Holiday Notice

    Hey all, thought I would give everyone a heads up on the extended holiday break.

    Luminous DIY will not be shipping any items during the entire month of DECEMBER.

    If you anticipate needing holders over the next couple months, I would suggest that you need to get them on order ASAP!! The last day I will take orders for immediate shipment is the 22nd of November.

    Orders received after the 22nd, and over the month of December, will ship in the order they were received. I anticipate that parts & kits will once again start shipping the 2nd week of January.

    Apologize ahead of time for any problems this may cause.

    Keep those DIY projects rolling on

  90. #90
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sdnative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    336
    Just bumping for those who may need them but missed the update. Closed for Dec, see prior post for more info.

  91. #91
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Cat-man-do's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    6,336
    Quote Originally Posted by sdnative
    Just bumping for those who may need them but missed the update. Closed for Dec, see prior post for more info.
    I quoted only so others wouldn't miss your closing date but I have a question:

    With these multi-cell flat packs....Wouldn't of it been a good idea to include a slot ( every two cells ) to allow the user to thread a length of Velcro to hold things snug (?)
    If you wrap a length of Velcro across the whole thing ( think 4 cells or more ) I would be a little worried that the inner most cells still might have room to move...or am I wrong about that .. If I was buying one of these flat packs ( which I might, who knows ..) I really would want to be sure that the batteries don't loose contact with the holder...Flicker would be a very big no, no.

  92. #92
    mtbr member
    Reputation: biketuna's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    472
    You could run velcro at 90 degree to the first one.
    Name:  batt.JPG
Views: 1589
Size:  22.2 KB
    _______________
    1x10 IS SO FINE on my 21.9 lbs IBIS SL-R
    11-36 XTR in the rear, 36T wide-narrow upfront

  93. #93
    mtbr member
    Reputation: dnlwthrn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    1,276
    Quote Originally Posted by sdnative
    Ya, not any takers. Sorry.

    Are the cells similar in diameter to the 18650's?
    Guess I found the thread too late... I really only needed one though.

    I did find that Batteryspace has a single CR123A holder, but not sure I want to pay shipping charges for a $0.79 part... CR123A Holder from Batteryspace

    I'm building a tail light, achesalot style, and wanted to have something that could be put inside the light. So I'm running a single CR123A to power 3 Cree red LEDs. Just wasn't enough room in there for the driver board AND an 18650 cell. At this point I haven't picked up rechargeables, so my idea may change...

  94. #94
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sdnative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    336
    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do
    I quoted only so others wouldn't miss your closing date but I have a question:

    With these multi-cell flat packs....Wouldn't of it been a good idea to include a slot ( every two cells ) to allow the user to thread a length of Velcro to hold things snug (?)
    If you wrap a length of Velcro across the whole thing ( think 4 cells or more ) I would be a little worried that the inner most cells still might have room to move...or am I wrong about that .. If I was buying one of these flat packs ( which I might, who knows ..) I really would want to be sure that the batteries don't loose contact with the holder...Flicker would be a very big no, no.
    Logical concern, so thanks for raising it. I assure you it's not at all an issue however. The double spring clips actually hold the cells in very very well, much better than coil over and flat bar setup does (common in cheap battery AA etc. holders). I used the double spring design for this reason, as well as the fact that it helps accommodate a wide variety of cell lengths. Strap is more as a double safety meaure than anything.

    BTW, Slots are very hard to do with molding, best to avoid if possible.

    I personally have never had a problem with light a flickering as a result of the holder design.

  95. #95
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sdnative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    336
    Quote Originally Posted by biketuna
    You could run velcro at 90 degree to the first one.
    Good idea, actually a lot easier to accomplish than molding in (or machining) slots; just a limitation of the process itself here. ...Not that I feel you actually need them or should be worried about cells popping out however ( read my prior comments to Cat-man-do).

    Will put in the back pocket for possible use later. Thanks!

  96. #96
    I like bloody ankles
    Reputation: dsjc's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    139

    my version of strain relief

    I like the new molded holders much better than the previous acrylic, the couple mm of extra length allows for an easier fit for protected cells yet they're still plenty secure.

    Just setup this 2s2p pack for use with DX light head that I got from Geoman, and used a ziptie with 3 small holes drilled as strain relief. With the 22g mil-spec teflon wire, its very sturdy.



    Last edited by dsjc; 11-10-2009 at 11:10 PM.

  97. #97
    mtbr member
    Reputation: biketuna's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    472
    dsjc
    What run time are you getting with that pack?
    _______________
    1x10 IS SO FINE on my 21.9 lbs IBIS SL-R
    11-36 XTR in the rear, 36T wide-narrow upfront

  98. #98
    I like bloody ankles
    Reputation: dsjc's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    139
    Quote Originally Posted by biketuna
    dsjc
    What run time are you getting with that pack?
    Based on reports from others using the DX light, and the fact that I'm using higher capacity "True 2400" cells, I suspect it will be about 4 hours on high. But haven't had a chance to prove that yet.

    I ran it on high for about 1.5 hours last night on fresh 4.2v cells, and today measured the individual cells at 3.96v, so tells me that's in the ballpark.

  99. #99
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sdnative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    336
    Quote Originally Posted by dsjc
    Based on reports from others using the DX light, and the fact that I'm using higher capacity "True 2400" cells, I suspect it will be about 4 hours on high. But haven't had a chance to prove that yet.

    I ran it on high for about 1.5 hours last night on fresh 4.2v cells, and today measured the individual cells at 3.96v, so tells me that's in the ballpark.
    ....and a 6X pack will get you even more if you needed it too


    Best Case Senario, my 2C on what's possible

    [Cell power] 3.7 V * 2.4 Ah = 8.88 Watt*Hr per cell * 4 cells = 35.52 Watt*Hrs for the pack

    [LED power] 3.4 V * 2.8 A = 9.52 Watts consumed

    [Burn Time] 35.52 Watt*Hrs / 9.52 Watts = 3.73 Hrs @ 90% Eff = 3.36 Hours with the cells actually coming in at spec, and the LED running at mfg spec

    Yo nice strain relief too ....but what about those beautiful polarity stickers? You can flip directions and change the + to - as needed also

    Tunnels dude ...

  100. #100
    I like bloody ankles
    Reputation: dsjc's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    139
    Quote Originally Posted by sdnative
    ....and a 6X pack will get you even more if you needed it too


    Best Case Senario, my 2C on what's possible

    [Cell power] 3.7 V * 2.4 Ah = 8.88 Watt*Hr per cell * 4 cells = 35.52 Watt*Hrs for the pack

    [LED power] 3.4 V * 2.8 A = 9.52 Watts consumed

    [Burn Time] 35.52 Watt*Hrs / 9.52 Watts = 3.73 Hrs @ 90% Eff = 3.36 Hours with the cells actually coming in at spec, and the LED running at mfg spec

    Yo nice strain relief too ....but what about those beautiful polarity stickers? You can flip directions and change the + to - as needed also

    Tunnels dude ...
    Tunnels - yes, email sent !

    And you pretty much confirmed my math. The DX light runs at a max current of 2.4A limited by the driver, which then comes out to about 4.35 hours runtime on high with everything else remaining the same....not too shabby !

  101. #101
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    11
    Thank you!

    I've been looking all over for a flat 4-pack and it was right in front of me.
    Just ordered one, hope it'll fit in my backpack.

  102. #102
    Bigger is better!
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    723
    Question about soldering wires to the contacts:

    Do you have to take the contacts off the holder, or can you solder with them in place? I'm thinking about melting the holder...

    Also: do the the contacts have some kind of loop in them to thread the wires through, before you solder? I'm not 100% of this looking at the pics.


    Thanks!

  103. #103
    mtbr member
    Reputation: ortelius's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    190
    You can solder with spring clips mounted on the holder. Plastics of the holder does not melt so easily. I've torchered my first holder quite a lot with solder iron and there is no trace of plastics melting anywhere.

    Spring clips do have wire loops. I did not bother to use them, though. I simply soldered the wires flat on the clip.

  104. #104
    I like bloody ankles
    Reputation: dsjc's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    139
    Quote Originally Posted by ortelius
    You can solder with spring clips mounted on the holder. Plastics of the holder does not melt so easily. I've torchered my first holder quite a lot with solder iron and there is no trace of plastics melting anywhere.

    Spring clips do have wire loops. I did not bother to use them, though. I simply soldered the wires flat on the clip.
    Agree with everything ortelius said, same experience with no troubles. A good solder connection with strain relief on the connector wires is plenty strong.

  105. #105
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sdnative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    336
    Quote Originally Posted by langen
    Question about soldering wires to the contacts:

    Do you have to take the contacts off the holder, or can you solder with them in place? I'm thinking about melting the holder...

    Also: do the the contacts have some kind of loop in them to thread the wires through, before you solder? I'm not 100% of this looking at the pics.


    Thanks!
    As others mentioned, just install the clips then solder directly to the clip rather than using the loop ...either side works. A little bit of solder flux works wonders here.

    Another link for a user that tested the max exposure temp. 500-600F before having any problems ....this is really hot. Much more temperature tolerant than most plastics, which is good with the soldering.

    I've also held my soldering iron directly on the plastic for 10-20+ seconds just to see what it could take. Nothing visually happened ...as this is a thermo set vs. thermo plastic material I didn't expect it to melt myself. That all said, I however would still recommend to keep the heat exposure to a minimum, as it will eventually weaken the plastic.

    A good question, thanks

  106. #106
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sdnative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    336

    18650's cells for free?

    How do I get 18650's cells for cheap, maybe even free >>> http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...d.php?t=246699

    Just came across this post which demonstrates how to harvest cells from old laptop batteries. While I've know about this for a while, I've never yet done it myself. I know I have at least one old pack kicking around, and more if I talk to a couple firends w/old machines.

    I've never bothered with this approach to DIY lights ...till now that is Look at all those cells!!

    Next, put each cell on a charger. If it charges up around 4.2 volts ...and then stays there after you take it off the charger (10-20min later) the cell is still in great shape. Even if it stays about 4.1 it's still gonna give you decent burn time. Price is right in any case. Go get some old packs!

  107. #107
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sdnative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    336

    Back and shipping soon

    For those patiently waiting, thanks!!!

    ...just wanted to drop a line and let people know holders will start shipping soon.

    I will be back in the next couple days after a month away, and things should get back to full swing.

    Till then, for those who have orders on backorder, I can assure you they will be going out asap. Thanks again!!

  108. #108
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sdnative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    336

    Happy Owners

    Just a little cross reference to another MTBR thread with holder comments. Read more here >>

  109. #109
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    447
    I got mine too. Dadgum little clip took a nick out of my finger when I was putting it on, but that heals. ;-)

    They work well. I like them too. I'm sure I'll be adding more to the arsenal.

  110. #110
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sdnative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    336
    Quote Originally Posted by racerdave
    I got mine too. Dadgum little clip took a nick out of my finger when I was putting it on, but that heals. ;-)

    They work well. I like them too. I'm sure I'll be adding more to the arsenal.
    Ouch!!

    I usually use my thumb and just sorta squeeze the thing between one hand rather than using two ...not suggesting you did it a wrong way ...thinking just unlucky probably.

    When that time comes, drop me an email. Will do my best to get you off those sealed battery packs once and for all! ~C

  111. #111
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    33
    Could someone post dimensions for the 6X compact holder?

    I've already ordered one, but thought others might benefit from the answer.

  112. #112
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    33
    So, I'll just answer my own question.

    The size is 100x62x40 mm.

  113. #113
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sdnative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    336
    Quote Originally Posted by larsan
    So, I'll just answer my own question.

    The size is 100x62x40 mm.
    Thanks for posting

    I was planning to measure and post all the sizes A-Z ...eventually, time permitting, when I get around to it, you get the idea

  114. #114
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    33
    You could send me free samples of all of them.
    I can measure them for you.



    Thanks for a great product!

  115. #115
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    33
    I was wondering if you've ever considered making a "round" 6x holder?
    These would fit much easier in a water-bottle or BBB Tools can.
    Example (apologies for the quality):


    The diameter could be around 57mm...

  116. #116
    mtbr member
    Reputation: ortelius's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    190
    FWIW, I've had no problems fitting Luminous "compact" 6x holder into BBB Tools can.

  117. #117
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    33
    Me neither, but I had to cut a few pieces out of the can.
    A round version would fit without any modifications.

    I'm looking for a long lasting solution, where I can easily take the batteries out to be individually charged.

  118. #118
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sdnative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    336
    Quote Originally Posted by larsan
    I was wondering if you've ever considered making a "round" 6x holder?
    These would fit much easier in a water-bottle or BBB Tools can.
    Example (apologies for the quality):


    The diameter could be around 57mm...
    No worries, I get the idea clearly.

    I had considered a round pack back in the beginning, to fit inside a bottle, but from a manufacturing standpoint a round holder as you pictured is pretty hard to mold. The mold will need to have several removable sections, so lots of work to make and then mold each part. The current back to back designs are just a lot easier to make, so I can sell for a reasonable price.

    I might make bottle style if the next generation of luminous bar mount lights uses a bottle setup, but, I will add that I personally like the tube+strap better, as I can also then use the same light setup for dirtbikes. So ... can't promiss anything there. I was also considering adding a concave edge that would match up and secure the holder to the frame tube better. Possibly integrated strap guides also ...and a clamshell closing design that would protect the entire pack from the elements.

    Good question though! ~C

  119. #119
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sdnative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    336
    Quote Originally Posted by ortelius
    FWIW, I've had no problems fitting Luminous "compact" 6x holder into BBB Tools can.
    That's a nice bottle option! And here I've been cutting standard water bottles in half all this time. BBB a much nicer option.

    http://www.amazon.com/BBB-Tool-Can-B.../dp/B0015MQFUQ

    ~C

  120. #120
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    28
    Got my 4x Compact holder wired up and running today, very solid product.

    I built a Triple Cree Q5 light back in summer of 2008 but due to a bunch of crappy economic/life circumstances I wasn't able to buy a nice battery pack to run it. Tragic. I finally got it running thanks to one of your battery holders and some cheap 18650 cells. Not disapointed, thanks for making it.

    BTW, what is the Digikey/wherever part number for those little metal tabs that make the contacts? Just in case.

  121. #121
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sdnative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    336
    Quote Originally Posted by Nouia
    Got my 4x Compact holder wired up and running today, very solid product.

    I built a Triple Cree Q5 light back in summer of 2008 but due to a bunch of crappy economic/life circumstances I wasn't able to buy a nice battery pack to run it. Tragic. I finally got it running thanks to one of your battery holders and some cheap 18650 cells. Not disapointed, thanks for making it.

    BTW, what is the Digikey/wherever part number for those little metal tabs that make the contacts? Just in case.
    You're welcome, and glad you like them!

    Look around a little, you'll find em on either In any case, there is a very conservative bend radius on the spring, so not at all failure prone ...doubt they will ever fail!

    ~Chris

  122. #122
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    112
    Hi I'm very keen on 3 - 4x compact. How much to express to Queensland Australia?

    Thanks Josh.

  123. #123
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Cat-man-do's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    6,336
    Quote Originally Posted by Joshp82
    Hi I'm very keen on 3 - 4x compact. How much to express to Queensland Australia?

    Thanks Josh.
    Josh,
    You might try contacting ktronik at > http://www.ktronik.com/
    I bought a triple XP-G light from him ( K-lite ) that uses the four cell LuminousDIY
    battery holder sold by SDnative. Since he lives in Australia maybe he might have what you need. I figure it's worth a shot.

  124. #124
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    112
    Thanks cat man do I contacted him. I will get some in the next couple of days.

  125. #125
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sdnative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    336
    Quote Originally Posted by Joshp82
    Hi I'm very keen on 3 - 4x compact. How much to express to Queensland Australia?

    Thanks Josh.
    Express tends to be too expensive. 1st class mail is pretty cheap and usually takes about 1 week after shipped.

  126. #126
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    2,700
    sdnative's cells holders are genius. The resin stuff is very easy to channel wires through for flush mount, and the 4x 18650 compact is a great size!! I even mounted a "strain relief" on mine for the power cable.

    I love mine!


  127. #127
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sdnative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    336
    Quote Originally Posted by chelboed
    sdnative's cells holders are genius. The resin stuff is very easy to channel wires through for flush mount, and the 4x 18650 compact is a great size!! I even mounted a "strain relief" on mine for the power cable.

    I love mine!
    Man, nice work ...looks PRO

    Is that plasti-dip on the ends? Good idea to help keep the wires hidden from moisture and dust.

  128. #128
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    2,700
    No...that's some 5/8" adhesive electro-barrier that you can buy in rolls. It looks great, but not as good as plastic dip. Either way it works for me. Next one I order though...it'll get a dip-job.




    Hey man! You need to re-up your links:

    Product ID is no longer in our database. If you were trying to renew an ad, you will need to resubmit.

  129. #129
    my body breaks the falls
    Reputation: twindaddy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    1,440
    Just wanted to post a quick comment from another happy customer.
    I had 5 minutes to prep for a night ride and needed a new battery pack for my helmet light. I wired the 3x together with 1 minute to spare! I dropped the pack into a little plastic box I had from a CPU and it was a perfect fit. A pair of velcro straps around the box and my camelbak and I was in business.
    These are incredibly easy to wire up. I'll be picking up a few more soon.
    $500 million for more irresponsible EBRPD land management? No thanks.
    www.noonmeasureww.org

  130. #130
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sdnative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    336
    [QUOTE=twindaddy]Just wanted to post a quick comment from another happy customer.
    QUOTE]

    Thanks for the post!

    BTW, Stone brewery is a quick fwy jump for me

  131. #131
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    489
    Received a 6x compact! Another happy costumer

  132. #132
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sdnative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    336
    Quote Originally Posted by Toaster79
    Received a 6x compact! Another happy costumer
    Thxs for posting so!

  133. #133
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sdnative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    336

    Holder dimensions

    So here are a few measurements.....

    All are in inches, and are +/- 0.020" except flat holders where the thickness will can vary by ~ (approx) +0.050 from the noted value


    4X compact with cells installed = 3.4 Long x 1.7 Wide x 1.6 Thick

    6X compact with cells installed = 3.4 Long x 2.4 Wide x 1.6 Thick

    4X flat with cells installed = 3.4 Long x 3.3 Wide x ~0.9 Thick

    3X flat with cells installed = 3.4 Long x 2.4 wide x ~0.9 Thick

    2X flat with cells installed = 3.4 Long x 1.7 Wide x ~0.9 Thick

    and finally....

    6X flat with cells installed = 3.4 Long x 4.8 Wide x ~0.9 Thick

    (These are subject to a very minor deviation, as the parts are molded in a flexible mold)

  134. #134
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sdnative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    336
    Just bumpin the thread ...I'm still making and shippin these things as orders trickle in. ~Chris

  135. #135
    banned
    Reputation: random walk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    2,666
    I've been looking at this thread and some others with interest, to build up a battery pack for a new MS 1400. I like the versatility of the 6x holder.

    Quote Originally Posted by sdnative
    [B][COLOR=red]So here are a few measurements.....

    6X compact with cells installed = 3.4 Long x 2.4 Wide x 1.6 Thick

    4X flat with cells installed = 3.4 Long x 3.3 Wide x ~0.9 Thick
    So, with a little internal padding, something like this would be a good approach for a waterproof case?

    4.25 x 3.25 x 2.5" (10.8 x 8.26 x 6.35cm) (WxHxD)
    3.3 oz. (90 g)

    edit: Oh, and sdnative -- I'm also an S.D. native and still here

  136. #136
    my body breaks the falls
    Reputation: twindaddy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    1,440
    Here are the dimensions of my 6x with batteries installed and cable routed across the top: 2.45" wide, 1.64" deep, 3.6" tall

    I wrap them with a pair of thin inner tube strips to keep the batteries secured (included in the measurements). Wired in 2S,3P, this is a great setup for a pair of MS lights.
    I could easily use two MS battery packs, but they've proven to be unreliable. I save those for short rides in the neighborhood where it isn't catastrophic if they die.

    FWIW: I'm on my second season with these holders and they have been great.

    Edit: Woops - I never saw the dimensions posted above. I guess that's what happens when you only read the last post None the less, my comments about how good these are remain true.
    $500 million for more irresponsible EBRPD land management? No thanks.
    www.noonmeasureww.org

  137. #137
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sdnative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    336
    Quote Originally Posted by random walk
    I've been looking at this thread and some others with interest, to build up a battery pack for a new MS 1400. I like the versatility of the 6x holder.



    So, with a little internal padding, something like this would be a good approach for a waterproof case?

    4.25 x 3.25 x 2.5" (10.8 x 8.26 x 6.35cm) (WxHxD)
    3.3 oz. (90 g)

    edit: Oh, and sdnative -- I'm also an S.D. native and still here
    Nice little pack holder you found there ...even has a strap! There is also the option of a water bottle and/or a tool "can" that fits in the water bottle cage. There is an earlier post with this link; I think Park tools makes it. Price is similar.

    Cool, rare to find another! I live in Encinitas right now, La Costa and Calaveras have sorta become my go to rides these days. Drop a line

    ~Chris

  138. #138
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sdnative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    336
    Quote Originally Posted by twindaddy
    Here are the dimensions of my 6x with batteries installed and cable routed across the top: 2.45" wide, 1.64" deep, 3.6" tall

    I wrap them with a pair of thin inner tube strips to keep the batteries secured (included in the measurements). Wired in 2S,3P, this is a great setup for a pair of MS lights.
    I could easily use two MS battery packs, but they've proven to be unreliable. I save those for short rides in the neighborhood where it isn't catastrophic if they die.

    FWIW: I'm on my second season with these holders and they have been great.

    Edit: Woops - I never saw the dimensions posted above. I guess that's what happens when you only read the last post None the less, my comments about how good these are remain true.
    Thanks for the feedback! Good to hear they are holding up well, also in my second season with my own

  139. #139
    banned
    Reputation: random walk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    2,666
    Quote Originally Posted by sdnative
    Nice little pack holder you found there ...even has a strap! There is also the option of a water bottle and/or a tool "can" that fits in the water bottle cage. There is an earlier post with this link; I think Park tools makes it. Price is similar.

    Cool, rare to find another! I live in Encinitas right now, La Costa and Calaveras have sorta become my go to rides these days. Drop a line

    ~Chris
    Just put in my order for a couple of 6x compacts

    I would be all over the bottle cage solution, but I have one of those bikes where the only cage location is on the bottom of the down tube, near the BB.

    I spend most of time riding central and southern parts of the county, but every now and then I venture up to the cooler latitudes (rode SMaRT a couple of weekends ago). Maybe we'll see each other out there some time

  140. #140
    banned
    Reputation: random walk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    2,666

    Follow-up on Snap Sights case

    Quote Originally Posted by random walk
    I've been looking at this thread and some others with interest, to build up a battery pack for a new MS 1400. I like the versatility of the 6x holder.

    So, with a little internal padding, something like this would be a good approach for a waterproof case?

    4.25 x 3.25 x 2.5" (10.8 x 8.26 x 6.35cm) (WxHxD)
    3.3 oz. (90 g)
    Well, I took an $8 flyer on what looked to be an elegant solution for packaging 18650s in one of the 4x or 6x holders. Upon arrival I see that the case dimensions are not as above (from the dealer's website), but rather:

    4.25″H x 3.5″W x 1.5″D

    from the manufacturer's website.

    Those are the exterior dimensions. The interior dimensions are smaller, mainly in the Width (~2.5") because the exterior measurement includes the hinge and cam lock, not to mention the thickness of the case and a protrusion around the opening for the rubber seal..

    So there's no way to fit in a 6x or 4x holder Too bad, because I found some nice weathertight connectors.

    You can still fit in a 2x holder to support a smaller capacity 7.4v application, or a 2x or 3x holder for a higher capacity 3.7V application.

    You could also fit in 4 or 6 18650 cells in a somewhat staggered arrangement as a "custom" pack with no holder, or maybe a Li-Po pack. But that's beyond the scope of this thread.

    Anyway, at least now I have a nice case for my cell phone, IDs & car key when I go kayaking

  141. #141
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    5
    hey, are the 4 x compact holders still available?

    Thanks,

    Tom

  142. #142
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sdnative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    336
    Hi Tom,
    Currently still shipping ALL the cell holders! I stopped with the lights though, as didn't pencil out.

    FYI, I will be out of the country for all of April, so if you need one make sure you get it into paypal asap.

    Thanks! ~Chris

  143. #143
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    5
    hi mate, you should have had an order for 2 off, 4 cell compact holders from me about an hour or two ago?

    Thanks,

    Tom

  144. #144
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    168
    Quote Originally Posted by sdnative View Post
    Hi Tom,
    Currently still shipping ALL the cell holders! I stopped with the lights though, as didn't pencil out.

    FYI, I will be out of the country for all of April, so if you need one make sure you get it into paypal asap.

    Thanks! ~Chris
    What happened to the manufacturing of your holders??? I see as of October 2011 you no longer offer any parts for sale???? I was looking at TurboFerret's site and see he quite making them. Then I stumble across this thread and your site and find out I just missed out on a compact 4x holder (assuming it was similar to TF's?).


  145. #145
    nattyboh74
    Guest
    yeah man, I had a turbo and it was good, and then I went back to get another, and well gone. Then same here.. I seen these and well gone too. I think the manufacturing of the holders wasnt cost effective. I know turbo was blow molding ( possibly ) his own holders... so unsure what happened there.

Members who have read this thread: 0

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

THE SITE

ABOUT MTBR

VISIT US AT

© Copyright 2020 VerticalScope Inc. All rights reserved.