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  1. #1
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    cree MC E light but need a little help

    As you might have seen from some of my posts I have been making the bar mounts on my lights in the hope that they will use the bars for a bit of heat removal.

    so I thought I would take it a bit further with a housing for the cree mc e led when it becomes available

    here is the idea for my light .



    this will also keep it out of the way when turning the bike over to fix a flat.

    So with this design where do I put the driver to keep it as small as possible
    I am not sure which optic to use either the 20mm or 26.6 mm
    if I used the 20 mm then I could put 2 mc e`s side by side in the aluminium I have

    but I figured the larger 26.6mm optic may be the best for the leds and would make a smaller light.

    any ideas please

  2. #2
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    I'd be a bit worried about getting good thermal contact with the bars. IMO you'd want to clean off whatever paint was on the bar, and use some thermal paste. Your bar mount has to make strong clamping pressure with the bar.

    Even assuming a good thermal connection to the bar, you're not really adding alot of mass. I think it may saturate rather more quickly then you might like.

    What kind of wattage do you want to push through the LEDs?

    Where are you planning on putting the battery? My first thought is a water-bottle setup, where you cold keep the driver in the bottle with the battery.

  3. #3
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    ref contact with the bars they are anodised so no need to remove any paint
    the light will hopefully be machined to be a good fit and a little tip here is to use a little
    zinc baby botty cream as zinc is a great heat conducter and the other ingredient is caster oil so will not hurt the bars.

    also there will be 1.8 square inches of contact with the bars.

    the cree mc e leds will be powered at 700 ma

    I already put my battery in small camera bag under the stem it is a 15 v li ion

    I have been doodling again and here is my next idea on this theme.


  4. #4
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    Looks good troutie, but since you asked for feedback Ill try and shoot it down...
    Its gonna get hot. It might expand enough that it gets loose on the bars.
    I would make it hang or sit on top of the bars, and COG right over or under the bars so it doesn't want to flop down. Over the bars means you don't have to deal with cable shadows either...not so bad on a triple of quad but with such a small source a cable in the way would be really bad.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by znomit
    Looks good troutie, but since you asked for feedback Ill try and shoot it down...
    Its gonna get hot. It might expand enough that it gets loose on the bars.
    I would make it hang or sit on top of the bars, and COG right over or under the bars so it doesn't want to flop down. Over the bars means you don't have to deal with cable shadows either...not so bad on a triple of quad but with such a small source a cable in the way would be really bad.

    Cheers znomit , that is why I posted for constructive feedback

    good point about the expansion ok I make the rear of the clamp oversize and line it with inertube .

    I like the vertical idea too and it might give me more space for the driver but the heat then has to travel down to soak to the bars .

    cant hang down cos the cables will deff be in the way but I like that too keeps the light out of the way from over the bar dismounts too .
    will have to check where the cables are

  6. #6
    dweeby
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    I have always liked the idea of using the bike as a heatsink and I think it should work fine, copper grease is a good heat conductor but I never knew about zink cream. The only problem I can find is you can't aim the light left to right.
    Becouse heat rises having the light under the bars will allow the heat to rise into the bars, but then as said before you may have cable probs. EDIT the post above wasn't there when I started typing.

  7. #7
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    Cheers dweeby
    never even thought about the heat rising into the bars
    I will have a close look at the cables and see if it can go under and experiment with my exsisting light to see any shadows .

    also copper grease I have a massive tub of that just never thought about using it
    for heat transfer

  8. #8
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    What are the masses with carbon bars going to do?

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by troutie-mtb
    good point about the expansion ok I make the rear of the clamp oversize and line it with inertube .
    If you do that it wont transfer the heat.
    Im really liking my under stem setups. Totally out of the way. I used some welding rod to spread the cables. I think all stems are different though so a machined clamp is no good.... maybe a double clamp to the bars or a single offset one? Someone made a double clamp to the bars either side of the stem and it looked fantastic, think it was that curvy triple???

  10. #10
    dweeby
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    I had an idea some time ago after too many beers. It was to make a stem face plate with Leds in and put the driver insde of the hollow stem. It never happend but I still look at my wobbly drawing for a laugh now and then.
    But you never know, one day........

    Just a thought on expansion, if the bar clamp and bar are both made from the same meterial won't they both expand as they get warm and then still fit tight. Maybe not, not sure on that.

  11. #11
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    Okay :-

    Heat only rises in air/water not in solids, because it makes the air expand and therefore lighter than the normal sized air around it in Metal heat will radiate equally, feel your copper central heating pipes same heat top and bottom, yes the heat of the bars will convect up towards the unit but as your moving it'll have zero effect.

    NO way is this thing going to get hot enough for it to become loose on the bars, 80c is the internal max temperature, so doubt you'll get to 40c external temperature while riding outta and even then the bars will heat up and expand to fill the gap anyway.

    Wouldn't use Copper Grease, yes the copper part is good but the grease part isn't better off with CPU thermal paste.

    What you really need is copper water filled bars though

    Water filled bars, would really increase the transfer rate, then a pump and a motorbike radiator mounted under your stem

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by dweeby
    I had an idea some time ago after too many beers. It was to make a stem face plate with Leds in and put the driver insde of the hollow stem. It never happend but I still look at my wobbly drawing for a laugh now and then.
    But you never know, one day........

    Just a thought on expansion, if the bar clamp and bar are both made from the same meterial won't they both expand as they get warm and then still fit tight. Maybe not, not sure on that.
    Thats a cool idea Dweeby.

    Regarding expansion, the light housing is going to be significantly hotter than the bars and hence get bigger.... probably a lot hotter.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turveyd
    Okay :-

    Heat only rises in air/water not in solids, because it makes the air expand and therefore lighter than the normal sized air around it in Metal heat will radiate equally, feel your copper central heating pipes same heat top and bottom, yes the heat of the bars will convect up towards the unit but as your moving it'll have zero effect.

    NO way is this thing going to get hot enough for it to become loose on the bars, 80c is the internal max temperature, so doubt you'll get to 40c external temperature while riding outta and even then the bars will heat up and expand to fill the gap anyway.

    Wouldn't use Copper Grease, yes the copper part is good but the grease part isn't better off with CPU thermal paste.

    What you really need is copper water filled bars though

    Water filled bars, would really increase the transfer rate, then a pump and a motorbike radiator mounted under your stem
    I Believe Turveyd is correct in regards to heat transfer in solids and I agree that thermal paste would be the best option. Copper cote/grease gets everywhere, regardless of how hard you try not to spread it.

    Just thinking out loud here...How would you go making your housing a rectangular shape with rounded corners and 3mm x 2.5mm cooling fins equally spaced around the entire housing?...mmm, I do like dweebys stem mounted light idea, though!

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by znomit
    If you do that it wont transfer the heat.
    no I would leave the front of the clamp bare and a good fit to the bars

    dweebys idea is good can you get into the stem with the bars in the way
    now that would take some making
    can we see your wobbly drawing dweeby please

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by troutie-mtb
    no I would leave the front of the clamp bare and a good fit to the bars

    dweebys idea is good can you get into the stem with the bars in the way
    now that would take some making
    can we see your wobbly drawing dweeby please

    You could spring load the mounting bolts too to keep things tight... hmmm.

    Yeah, that stem mount would kick arse. Are the bolts a standard spacing?

    ps, I was snooping cutter.com.au and they have prices up on MC-E leds.
    Last edited by znomit; 06-29-2008 at 10:50 PM.

  16. #16
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    well Hope do make a stem faceplate with mount for their lights and battery
    I bet the bolt holes are not standard though

    MC-E prices http://www.cutter.com.au/products.php?cat=45
    but not until august/september

    Oh well that gives me plenty of time to get the housing sorted

  17. #17
    dweeby
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    It's a funny old world, but I mentioned the stem light to fellow mtbr members about a year ago and most thought I was mad so I listened to advice for once and never bothered. Only to find people now like the Idea and most annoying is that exposure lights have gone and done it(well a commuter version). I don't want to take the subject off of troutie-mtbs light just agreeing with using an alloy bike as a heatsink.

  18. #18
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    Dont worry about my thread it is threads like this that spark ideas for folk.

    Your stem faceplate idea just lends itself to the new MC-E led and 20 mm optics
    with there small footprint I think the optic and led mcpcb will be max 15 mm deep and the driver in the stem ok you lose the thermal protection but I am sure you could put 2 MC-Es on a face plate and there would be plenty to take the heat away

    one main issue would be getting the vertical angle right for your own stem.
    I do have an idea how to make it adjustable though.

    Come on dweeby you can do it , you know you want the challenge

  19. #19
    dweeby
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    There are a few problems and the biggest one has always been the aim of the thing. but it can be done. The idea at first was to have it permanently fitted as no real point removing it when the only added weight is two leds and a driver. But not too long ago someone posted (maybe znomit)a dynamo light with the elecronics inside the fork steerer and that got me thinking again. A DC socket in the top cap and you could just plug the battery into it and go. I don't know about this one as a challenge, I end up not sleeping untill it's done, it pisses the wife off and turns my house into a load of wire and metal dust.

    What is your idea for adjustability, mine is simply to have slots instead of holes.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by dweeby
    There are a few problems and the biggest one has always been the aim of the thing. but it can be done.
    ... not too long ago someone posted (maybe znomit)a dynamo light with the elecronics inside the fork steerer and that got me thinking again.

    What is your idea for adjustability, mine is simply to have slots instead of holes.
    Theres is a bit of adjustability in the face plate anyway. If its a floody beam the adjustment isn't critical so you could guess and design most of the angle in.
    If you dont need to transfer heat to the bars you can make a simple pivoting plate for perfect aim.

    Yes, there is a lot of spare room in the steerer tube. The board I bought from pilom.com for my dyno is custom designed to fit, clever. A bflex should squeeze in a switch seals the top. You should be able to run wires past the star nut. Battery and LED wires out the bottom. Very tidy.

  21. #21
    dweeby
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    I bet you are the first to do it znomit, I've looked at your lights and this is right up your street.

    When I had the idea a year ago it was all buck pucks and no one had thermal protection, also 2 single die LEDs was the norm so you could squeeze 3 x 18650 cells lenth ways for the required 11.1 battery into the steerer and just have a charge socket on the top cap or bottom of the steerer. Soon though we will have a lot more heat and require bigger batteries. Unless ofcourse you have dynamo power.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by dweeby
    ... you could squeeze 3 x 18650 cells lenth ways for the required 11.1 battery into the steerer and just have a charge socket on the top cap or bottom of the steerer. Soon though we will have a lot more heat and require bigger batteries. Unless ofcourse you have dynamo power.
    Oh, never thought about putting batteries in there... I did have some ideas for putting the lights into bar ends and batteries in the handlebars. If I get a commuter with flat bars Ill probably do this... micropucks and 4AA batteries in bars. That might be a good MC-E solution too. One light either bar end.

  23. #23
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    Ha Ha Ha Ha

    Quote Originally Posted by dweeby
    I end up not sleeping untill it's done, it pisses the wife off and turns my house into a load of wire and metal dust.
    I just got in and read this still laughing

    now off in to the garage to pull the faceplate off the bike and have a look.
    and I bet I am not the only one

    That would be so cool batteries inside to with a charge jack and pretty much unstealable
    on a comuter bike.

  24. #24
    dweeby
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    can we see your wobbly drawing dweeby please
    Too much beer. Thomson x4 stem is just the thing. I will do a new drawing
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  25. #25
    dweeby
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    And trouti, you've almost drawn it anyway. I just did a little change.
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  26. #26
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    that looks doable just need to work out the angle for the lights .
    with the MC-E and 2 * 20 mm optics you have got 1500 lum in a tiny footprint on the bike
    1 medium optic and 1 wide oval optic with the driver in the stem just plug the battery in and go .

  27. #27
    dweeby
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    OK, I'm on the boil, the wife likes it because she doesn't have to carry a light in her backpack and then fit it and remove it etc. it's just there! Anyway I will try and make a mock up out of MDF tomorrow and I have found (and ordered) some 18mm aluminium reflectors on DX that I think will work and give a bit more room, one smooth and one textured

    Just thinking out loud but a nice silver aluminium stem and some alloy reflectors built in, very bling. Can't afford a new stem though so odd silver front on black stem will do.
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  28. #28
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    Whoa , way to go Dweeby , just cant resist
    are you a salesman , you sweet talking ( sold the idea to the missus )

    cant wait to see some pics how you are going to do it.


    here is a doodle of my adjustable idea not really sure how to do it though
    and keep the good thermal contact.
    the more I think about it I think you just need to get the angles right first time .





    please update us as you progress
    Last edited by troutie-mtb; 07-01-2008 at 03:43 PM.

  29. #29
    dweeby
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    Yes the sun did come out in the UK and it went to your head as well, troutie

  30. #30
    dweeby
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    Feel free to laugh your socks off, I already have!
    I made a Qiuck mock up of the stem face plate out of MDF and found that getting the light angle right will be very very hard, the rest isn't too bad. Oh and MDF is crap should have used plywood.
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  31. #31
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    dweeby, that looks uber cool i love it, but like you say aiming the beam will kill the deal
    if you go more flood than spot it wouldn`t have to be so precise

  32. #32
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    Yeah, thats real tidy.
    ...Almost as nice as the design in my head, which solves the heat and aiming problems. Hopefully its as nice when drawn out on paper

  33. #33
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    Dweeby
    That looks really ace , How long did it take you to do it.
    get it patented quick

    What are you using to do the machining

    can we please have a picture with it on the bike .

    I have been working away for the past 2 days with no tinterweb so have only just seen it.

    Look what my brother gave me



    19 inches long and 2.5 by 2.25 inches of top quality aircraft qrade aluminium
    so should be enough to make the odd light there.
    Last edited by troutie-mtb; 07-03-2008 at 02:07 PM.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by dweeby
    getting the light angle right will be very very hard

    If you machine off about 2 mm from the back of the faceplate and ovalise the boltholes a little you will have some fine tuning for the angle without losing too much clamping area .



  35. #35
    A waste of time it is is
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    How will you be able to aim the light where you want it? The majority of MTB stems face slightly upwards, so your lights would also shine up, not down on the trail where you want the light

    For the bars, I like to have two lights. A wide beam angled just in front of the front wheel and then a second wide beam angled so that it illumintaes just in front of the first.

    Supplemented by a helmet light I find this gives the best coverage.

    Good luck guys, I like where this is all heading


    OOps, clearly I didn't read to the end of the thread before I posted that comment. Sorry

  36. #36
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    Im wondering about optics and drivers. One wide and one narrow driven with a balance and a brightness adjustment for full control would be nice.

  37. #37
    dweeby
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    The model only took 15 mins with the Dremel and was just to find out if there was enough space and there is plenty. can't put it on the bike 'cos the crap MDF just crumbles with bolts done up.

    It's good I think to do a mock up but use plywood. I may make a better one out of ply and bolt it on. The problem I have is only having a Dremel a drill and a bench grinder and the only aluminium I have is 10mm thick sheets. So it may just end up as a wooden model.

    Troutie, I'm still thinking on your swivel point idea it may be possible. And it's nice having a brother like that, it's my brother who gives me the 10mm thick sheets.

  38. #38
    dweeby
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    znomit, can we see the idea thats in your head please, it might give my brain a rest

  39. #39
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    Dweeby are your bars oversize ie 31.56mm

    if you want I will post you a bit of this ali as I have plenty

    I will post a pic of what I am doing soon with more details

    Znomit I second Dweebys request for your ideas

    we have shown you ours so you show us yours

  40. #40
    dweeby
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    troutie yes oversize bars. A bit of your aluminium would be very nice thanks.
    shall I pm you my address? Let me know if you want a piece of 10mm it's quite handy.
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  41. #41
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    The reason I asked what size your bars are is this



    being lucky enough to have a mini lathe and milling machine I figured that if I bored the hole the same as the bars then cut it in half then I would have 2 blanks that fit the bars

    like so


    I quess getting the clamp size right is the hardest bit without a lathe so you can have the other half if you want it , and dont mind me doing a bit of the work for you

    I wish you luck with the dremel This aluminium must be very good quality it is quite hard compared to the stuff I have been using in the past ideal for this project

    yes pm me your address and I will get it in the post asap but you must keep sharing the ideas

    What I am impressed with is if you can do a similar quality of build in ali as the mdf mockup with the tools you have that will be fantastic

  42. #42
    dweeby
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    Just another thought...
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  43. #43
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    Yes something like that would work , be adjustable and porbably easier to make

    BUT I really like your concept and mdf mock up and if you don`t mind I am going to blatently steal it and have spent the afternoon in my garage starting it.

    also I am going to ask for help on here whenever I dont know what to do

    Which is about now .





    I have got to the point where I need to try and work out the angle for the lights before I cut anymore metal off it .

    My idea is with the bike on a level floor set the forks which I can lock down to my normal riding position. Then assuming the lights need to point level or just a bit tilted down .

    I am thinking of using a medium beam and a eliptical beam but when ordering the mce`s I will probably order some other optics too

    I do have about 4 degrees of up and down tilt with the faceplate a bit more with the removal of more aluminium.

    I will wait untill it gets dark and see where my bar light points and try and measure the angle somehow.

    any new ideas will be gratefully received ta

  44. #44
    dweeby
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    Man your keen,
    I was thinking that I would tie some string to a tree or something in the distance, tie it at the hight that you want the centre of the beam then tie the other end to the stem. use a spirit level on the string, then put a mark on the spirit level where the bubble is. Then you can use the level any time now that the bubble has been marked. This can be done in daylight but you may get someone asking why you are tying your bike to a tree.

    Everyone must think we are mad.

    And thanks for the help.
    Last edited by dweeby; 07-04-2008 at 09:01 AM.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by dweeby
    Man your keen,
    I was thinking that I would tie some string to a tree or something in the distance, tie it at the hight that you want the centre of the beam then tie the other end to the stem. use a spirit level on the string, then put a mark on the spirit level where the bubble is. Then you can use the level any time now that the bubble has been marked. This can be done in daylight but you may get someone asking why you are tying your bike to a tree.

    Everyone must think we are mad.

    And thanks for the help.
    No not keen I just got the day off and find it relaxing carving something out of a piece of metal.

    The string idea is a damn good idea the more I think about it I bet if the beam centre of say a spot beam was paralell to the ground then a spot and a flood would be about right .

    If I set it with the bolt holes tight at the top and aim it level then I have the 4 degree tilt available in a downwards direction . or do I set it to have 2 degrees up or down .

    right off to get some string

    next question how far away is going to be the optimal distance for a 790 lumin *2 light
    20 /30 mtres

  46. #46
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    Bonking ... not feelin' well major xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxproblem



    Oh dear glad I didnot pay for the aluminium that is friday afternoon and the aluminium a total write off just because I didnt spot the problem on my drawings.

    and it was looking good too



    anyone spot the fatal flaw.

    the good news is I sorted the perfect angle so the mark 2 will be a lot easier

    Dweeby your bit of ally is ready to mail in the morning , just dont make the same mistake as me.

    I did learn a lot on how to use the lathe though

  47. #47
    dweeby
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    troutie when I made the model I did discover that this helped but obviously all stems are different. Good Luck
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  48. #48
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    Good luck screwing that on.
    Nice work though. Im impressed.
    Regarding aim, mine are 600-700lm and point down a little. At that brightness its not critical. I can move mine up and down a little without noticing. Maybe tie the string to the base of the tree 30m away and line up to that? If your bike has suspension it might change things too so hop on.

    I'm loving this thread guys.

  49. #49
    dweeby
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    Don't throw that bit away, just cut the front off then make a little housing with the bit you cut off.
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  50. #50
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    Thanks for all the sympathy guys

    I didnt even get any from the wife when she found me

    I cant wait untill Dweeby gets his piece of aluminium and starts cutting it
    it is the hardest aluminium I have ever had the privalidge of screwing up

    It does polish to a fantastic finish though

    I might polish the cockup and mount it on the wall as a reminder to take notice of the drawing better

    This might be my last post untill they let me out of the asylem

  51. #51
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    whoo they let me out

    Hi folks I am back but then you knew it would not be long before the mark 2 version would be done

    well after yesterdays cockup it had to be better .

    now it is raining like the world is going to end so back into the garage to make some metal shavings and hopefully something usefull.

    It would seem that the stem angle on my bike it is not possible to make a one piece design

    so back to the drawing board , well a piece of dirty paper in the garage .
    no there is no drawing this time just the voices in my head


























    do you want to see what it looks like

  52. #52
    dweeby
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    do you want to see what it looks like <!-- / message -->
    Yes please.

  53. #53
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    Ok quickly before the straight jacket goes back on



















    WELL YOU DID ASK NICELY

    it just wants some fine tuning and a bit of work with a file and some polish
    and it is ready and waiting for the new multi die Crees and optics.

  54. #54
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    I want one!!!!!! How Much $$$$$

  55. #55
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    Well done, I knew you could do it and I'm glad to see that my stem light idea wasn't mad after all.

    You must have some amazing skill and some nice sharp tools. I may have to buy one from you as there is no way I'm doing that with a Dremel.

    I knew it could be done, great to see one for real ( well on the screen at least)

  56. #56
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    Holy crap!

    That's some great work. You're cranking out some really good stuff.

    Even though I don't have a use for something like that, I'm interested in how you control the swivel.

    And uh, I might want one too...
    Slow-core. -.. .-. .. -. -.- .... --- -- . -... .-. . .--

  57. #57
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    thanks for the comments guys

    Afew more pics on the bike one slight problem is the mounting holes need a tiny bit of tweaking.



    just clears the cables fine and this is roughly the right angle










    and here is my very messy workshop







    [SIZE="5"]AND THE REAL REASON FOR MAKING THE LIGHT




    is to make all this swarfe and alu dust

    Oh and you can see the pics full size here http://pics-by-chris.fotoblog.org.uk/c1379760_49.html
    Last edited by troutie-mtb; 07-06-2008 at 01:04 AM.

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by biketavioumaximus
    I want one!!!!!! How Much $$$$$

    biketavioumaximus

    I would not know how to put a value on one of these because from this



    to this took me the whole of saturday with a bit of time off to watch the grand prix quali.



    OK now I know what is looks like and how to do it I might be persuaded to do the hard bits and leave it to the buyer to do the finishing

    also because everyones stems are different it needs to be made for that stem

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by notaknob
    That's some great work. You're cranking out some really good stuff.

    Even though I don't have a use for something like that, I'm interested in how you control the swivel.

    And uh, I might want one too...


    Hi Bruce

    The swivel is really to get the angle right for the lights and then it will be invisibly bolted from the back of the faceplate with a couple of M3 bolts tapped into the rear of the eyeball
    also some thermal past in there too


    also I still have the cable entry to the 2 MC-E`s to sort out

    Drivers which are going to live in the hollow stem so have to work out cable routing from there.

    I would like to put a small waterproof power in socket in the stem then it is just a case of plug the battery in and go

    and then the problem of where do I put the switch

    so as you can see it is not finished and I havent even ordered any leds and optics yet

    Cheers Chris

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by dweeby
    Well done, I knew you could do it and I'm glad to see that my stem light idea wasn't mad after all.

    You must have some amazing skill and some nice sharp tools. I may have to buy one from you as there is no way I'm doing that with a Dremel.

    I knew it could be done, great to see one for real ( well on the screen at least)
    Funnyily enough Dweeby most of the work was done with a hacksaw and file after the work on the lathe for the roundy bits

    and as your mdf model suggests you can get it out of one piece for your setup with some carefull measuring and acurate sawing. and I have already done the roundy bit for you

    And sorry I missed the post on sat so will post on monday

    Cheers Chris

  61. #61
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    Troutie, I don't want to send you back to the asylum because the work is beautiful but......have you thought that if you cut just the light housing peice in half, so between the two light recesses, you could then set it up so that the two lights were angled differently. The wider of the two beams at the base of that tree you used to set it up, the tighter beam slightly further down the track.

    My bar lights, twin head, are like this and I find it great for fine tuning depending on the trail. Slow techy trails and the lights are closer to the front wheel, super fast fire trail and I spread them out so I have even light from my helmet mounts all the way back to the closest handle bar mounted one.

    Just a thought, keep up the good work.

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by emu26
    Troutie, I don't want to send you back to the asylum because the work is beautiful but......have you thought that if you cut just the light housing peice in half, so between the two light recesses, you could then set it up so that the two lights were angled differently. The wider of the two beams at the base of that tree you used to set it up, the tighter beam slightly further down the track.

    Good idea emu but I will leave that to someone else to perfect though I did have the idea of putting A single cree in the middle under the eyeball pointing down and slightly forward
    with no optic to light up the wheel area

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by troutie-mtb

    Good idea emu but I will leave that to someone else to perfect though I did have the idea of putting A single cree in the middle under the eyeball pointing down and slightly forward
    with no optic to light up the wheel area
    You could just machine in the led mounts at different angles. Been thinking about this... its easy to optimise angles on the flat but most of the tricky turns are over rolling terrain ... I'm guessing spot 5 degrees lower than flood would work well. I played around with angled lights on a few builds. One was too wide (l/r) other put a bit too much in front(up/down), best solution, as always, is more lumens.
    BUT ... MC-E dies are individually addressable so with a nice driver you could do high/low or narrow/wide. Put angles between the 2 leds, rotate one LED 45deg and there are all sorts of options.
    Someone might do a smart controller for highbeam/lowbeam/narrow/wide as well as output

    I do think a simple balance control between wide and narrow beams is a good idea.

    Sorry my brilliant light idea is looking a bit complicated once put on paper. Basically a periscope so LEDs point down and an adjustable mirror to bend the beam out the front at the right angle. A bit of light goes directly down for spill... The main driver for this idea is the frontal area fo cooling. Dunno how hot these things will get but people will drive them at 1A(remember XR-E were spec'd at only 700mA when released) so 29W is possible only if you keep things cool.

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by znomit
    You could just machine in the led mounts at different angles
    Just re read your post and sat looking at the mk 2 and yes you sometimes miss things even when it is so obvious Ta .

    the angle I have tested with the light I built stolen from this thread
    http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=407160
    it was perfect for this test ,flat based and a twin setup with a smooth spot and a wide optic
    and dead level when just sat on the bike was perfect for me .

    when you are braking for a techy bit the front dives and so lightsup said techy bit more
    and when climbing the front is a bit lighter so throws a bit further up the trail .

    Looking at your idea your even dafter than me

    But I can see where you are coming from with it it would be an easy way for a proper dipping solution with a quick flick of a lever that moves the mirror to dip the beam

    I dont think your smart driver is on the horizon just yet .

    this has been a fun thread I hope there is more to come

    see you in the madhouse soon .

  65. #65
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    Znomit

    I'm speechless.



    But I'm thinking.

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by troutie-mtb
    Looking at your idea your even dafter than me

    But I can see where you are coming from with it it would be an easy way for a proper dipping solution with a quick flick of a lever that moves the mirror to dip the beam

    I dont think your smart driver is on the horizon just yet .
    Haha, thanks for the complement.
    Yes it would be a bloody hard DIY build. No I don't think moving the mirror on the bike is a good idea, should be locked in place once the angle is set(idea came partly from the lasers at work and partly from my telescope building days).
    Yeah driver is a pipe dream, maybe we should start harrasing George at taskled now.

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by znomit
    Yeah driver is a pipe dream, maybe we should start harrasing George at taskled now.
    I have already asked George here http://taskled.com/forum/index.php?topic=152.0
    The inscrutable one has no plans yet

    I do expect that Wayne at the sandwiche shoppe will have plans for a driver for the mce

    but why not everybody ask george for a multi output driver for the MC-E and the likes of
    maybe he needs a challenge

  68. #68
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    ..... lol, i could see Georges answer as soon as i read your post ....
    wired series with a CC5W driver .... sorted!

    i find my lights are either on or off, no need for a bFlex imho

  69. #69
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    This has been an interesting weekend I learnt lots on machining and designing stuff
    now this light has been a good exercise for me if anyone wants to have it to finish it off and make a cracking light then it is yours for 20 plus posting which will be what ever it costs me and from past mailings of similarr things it is approx 1.75 in the UK
    dont know about abroad but will find out.

    as it was designed for my hope stem here are the dimentions

    bolt hole centres across = 35 mm
    bolt hole centres up n down =37 mm
    made for oversize bars = 31.5 ish mm diameter
    sockets for optics 20mm dia but may need opening out for optic holder
    socket depth 15 mm but there is room to go deeper to 20 mm
    width across 46 mm

    I have not done anything to fix the angle of the swivel head so it can be set to where ever you want it.


    the reason for sale is it has given me even more daft ideas on a similar vein so I am going to do a mk 3 for myself over the next few weeks

    I did offer it to Dweeby for free because it was his original idea but it was wrong for his stem and he did not want to change stems , so he opted to have the block of ali to make his own so expect some piccys from him soon .


    Thanks to everyone for the advise and comments


    Troutie

  70. #70
    dweeby
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    znomit,
    Every time I look at your drawing I think SLR camera in reverse.
    So a lense on the front to focus the light might work. It would be one hard thing to make though.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  71. #71
    dweeby
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    Just another thought after troutie and his bolt problem.

    One piece, and you can still get to the bolts. A spot at the top and a wide at the bottom.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by dweeby; 07-08-2008 at 12:24 PM.

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by dweeby
    znomit,
    Every time I look at your drawing I think SLR camera in reverse.
    So a lense on the front to focus the light might work. It would be one hard thing to make though.
    No optics go directly on the LED before the mirror. An eliptical mirror from a telescope would be perfect.... just machine the cylinderical hole and slide in LED/optic/mirror.

    Grab one of your lights and put it on a mirror at 45 degrees. See?

  73. #73
    dweeby
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    Ahh I understand now.
    Never thought of a curved mirror. A bit like the way night club/disco lights work these days?
    That could be quite a neat compact unit.

  74. #74
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    The mark 3 takes shape , it needs a name now

    OK I have been back in the workshop and this is hopefully my new light as long as I dont screw it up in the finishing.

    Apologies to Dweeby for the blatent copy of his idea

    But hopefully the lump of ali he recieved today will make up for the theft.

    I have photoed them side by side for camparison.








  75. #75
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    How On Earth

    Troutie
    How on Earth did you do that in a day?

    I'm glad you liked my idea so much but thats just not right, a day? one sodding little day....and it's better than the one I made out of wood.
    It will take me that long to drill a sodding bloody hole and it will probably be wonky

    Now be very proud of your skills and stop messing with bike bits and go and earn millions at NASA.

    So a great big and thanks for the paper wieght that you sent me .

  76. #76
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    well done Mr Trout

    that is one seriously impressive piece of handcrafted shiny metal .....



    heaven only knows what you could achieve with a good machine shop

  77. #77
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    understatement

    Quote Originally Posted by HEY HEY ITS HENDO
    well done Mr Trout

    that is one seriously impressive piece of handcrafted shiny metal .....

    heaven only knows what you could achieve with a good machine shop
    No kidding. I think he might need a Thomson stem so he can make a extra mark IV or V.
    Slow-core. -.. .-. .. -. -.- .... --- -- . -... .-. . .--

  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by dweeby
    Troutie
    How on Earth did you do that in a day?

    I'm glad you liked my idea so much but thats just not right, a day? one sodding little day....and it's better than the one I made out of wood.
    It will take me that long to drill a sodding bloody hole and it will probably be wonky

    Now be very proud of your skills and stop messing with bike bits and go and earn millions at NASA.

    So a great big and thanks for the paper wieght that you sent me .
    I started it sunday evening and have spent 7 hours with most of the work done with a hacksaw and files , with the final shaping and smoothing with a very cheap belt sander from B&Q.
    The optic holes are the hardest bit and a drill press is recomended I inherited a cheap one from my dad in law along with a bix box of drill bits

    I ground a 20 mm drill bit flat and sharpened it then drilled ever bigger holes until it would fit in then carefully flattened the hole with the modded bit.

    Abit of a problem there is the base of the hole is not flat more convex so that is going to be hard grinding it out and smoothing it

    next step is to get a very fine grit belt for the sander and get it ready for a good dremeling to finish


    Ref the paper weight can you weigh it acuratley before you start cutting for me .

    Ta for the comments working with my hands and tools is the only thing I am good at
    cannot design for toffee.

    and it has taken me 3 attempts to get one I am happy with . the good news is I am still on the original hack saw blade which was new when I started the mk1

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by notaknob
    No kidding. I think he might need a Thomson stem so he can make a extra mark IV or V.
    Cheers bruce I wonder who has a thompson stem ???

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by HEY HEY ITS HENDO
    well done Mr Trout

    that is one seriously impressive piece of handcrafted shiny metal .....



    heaven only knows what you could achieve with a good machine shop

    I only hope it does work and use the bars for heat removal as 8 cree emitters in this small a space may have some serious heat , This is why I really wanted a one piece design
    and was not happy with the swivel mk2 although I like the look of the mk2 it does weigh a lot more than the mk3

  81. #81
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    OK... this is an alignment thingee for my telescope but demonstrates my nutty idea well.


    Hollow tube with a hole in the side.


    Oval mirror inside the hole set at 45 degrees, shouldn't have a hole in the middle!
    Thats an aaa torch from kai to get an idea of scale...


    Poke the torch in and look in the hole.


    What the beam looks like. Its a bit messed from the hole in the middle of the mirror and a lip in the tube, but you get the idea. Normal throw but spill(that missed the mirror) directly in front.

  82. #82
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    Very interesting concept ,

    so have I got this right no optic bare cree single or MCe ,
    how far from the mirror

    is the mirror flat or shaped

    I think there may be lots of lumins hitting the walls of the tube so would that need to be very shiny to bounce it out the hole

  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by troutie-mtb
    Very interesting concept ,

    so have I got this right no optic bare cree single or MCe ,
    how far from the mirror

    is the mirror flat or shaped
    I think there may be lots of lumins hitting the walls of the tube so would that need to be very shiny to bounce it out the hole
    Optic as normal, pushed up to mirror... flat mirror. Mirror big enough to catch all the light off the optic...
    Its not ideal because you have mirror losses 10%. But you can do a stealthy light that doesn't poke out.

  84. #84
    dweeby
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    I'm sill amazed.
    I hope to start mine at the weekend, I want to do it in the garden but it won't stop raining. I bet when yours is finished it's not much more than double the weight of the face plate.

    The weight of the Ali before any cutting is 360gr/13oz.
    Can't wait to yours when it's finished.

  85. #85
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    polished and waiting for leds/optics

    Dweeby wait no longer

    I am well chuffed with it














    full size pics here
    http://pics-by-chris.fotoblog.org.uk/c1379760_73.html


    I have not done anything with the front because the holes for optics are too deep so the front will need filing shorter ,
    I do not know what the depth of the optic / holder / led pcb will be .

    I might get the leds and optics ordered soon and get in the que at cutters I am not sure which optics to go for yet

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    Heat transfer advice

    Hi Guys - just a piece of advice from the alloy yacht spars experience NOT to use any paste that contains zinc or copper to meld this to your bars - both these metals will set up a galvanic cell with the aluminium and corrode the heat transfer surfaces and may cause your bars to snap.
    The only metals you can use are alumimium (and the aluminium oxide pastes like Ceramique), stainless steel, and silver. The latter I'm not fully sure of because it is uncommon in yacht spars!!.

    It may also be worth considering using aluminium foil in the gap as this will compress/deform to give quite a good heat transfer surface too.

    As for heat transfer to the air, the surface area is the biggest factor, so all these smooth profiles are reducing the area, and also, matt black is the the best at both absorbing and radiating heat so polished alloy is less effective. Thats why almost every commercial heatsink you see is matt black!

    This idea of heat transfer to the bars is great but the heat "loss" to air is all about surface area. Thermal mass of metal is just to quickly absorb initial heat generated as waste by the high current through the LED. We want not just to keep the led from burning out, but they give out more light if temp kept at 25C or so.

    Most designs so far have had circumferential fins as theses are easy to turn on a lathe. Fins aligned front to back with airflow direction will be much better, and, as the heat is carried away by air rising when stationary, fins on top will be very slightly more effective than underneath - but potentially nastier in a body-contact incident. They can be round corrugations style as it is area that counts not sharpness. Even small fins are a huge increase in surface area though, so not much will be needed. Someone in one thread (I looked back - it was dweeby in another thread) did one of these from cut up bits of heat sink, and others have looked at the heatsinks used for model helicopter motors - both are in the better direction. There are also some small heatsinks used in things like SMPS which look like being user firendly.

    Best heat-loss design then would be radial fins and matt black anodising.
    Last edited by fre3ud; 07-10-2008 at 03:08 AM.

  87. #87
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    Fre3ud
    Thanks for pointing out the danger of galvanic corrosion and it is something I had not thought about.

    also I take your point about fins and surface texture and have built various lights with fins that keep cold on the bike or the helmet and I may paint it mat black in the future .

    I have tested the heat transfer to the bars with my existing lights which didnot need the additional heatsinking and a very narrow clamp area and it does work quite well even in still air.
    This light in comparison ok has not got the finning of the others but does have a massive surface area in contact with the bars which then increases the surface to air and also has a good surface area to air in the light body , from my experience with other lights I am 75% happy that they will not overheat and will be controling them with dimmable bflex drivers

    as non of us yet know how the MC E will perform I am sure that even at low power they will still be a cracking light . it is also in a good position to monitor the heat

    It is a gamble that I take but ( NO RISK NO FUN ) and I will be reporting back here wether it is a cracking success or a dismal failure

    cheers Trout

  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by fre3ud

    Most designs so far have had circumferential fins as theses are easy to turn on a lathe. Fins aligned front to back with airflow direction will be much better, and, as the heat is carried away by air rising when stationary, fins on top will be very slightly more effective than underneath - but potentially nastier in a body-contact incident. They can be round corrugations style as it is area that counts not sharpness.

    Best heat-loss design then would be radial fins and matt black anodising.
    In general that was quite a good post, but i do have to disagree with you about proper fin orientation. The worst case thermal condition is still air. Design to that. Any air flow (riding) will quickly cool the light enough that finning designed for still air will be more than adequate. Radial finning made on a lathe is quite reasonable for bike lights, although some other fin orientations are probably superior. Of course, if you never stop for more than a couple minutes, make the light as small as you feel like you can get away with.

    Basically, if your light is only warm to the touch after about 15 minutes of sitting on the bench (you can hold your finger to it for ~10 seconds without it hurting), you are doing fine thermally. This assumes you have a quality heat path within the light (LED to outside world) and what you are touching is aluminum.

    Some very cool ideas in this thread, btw.

  89. #89
    dweeby
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    troutie I'm glad that you are chuffed with it, you should be.
    I got my wife to have a look at it and she thinks it's great and that takes some doing.
    I don't think mine will be quite as good but I will start it very soon.
    Nice to see the Dremel out, great little tool. The little ali reflectors have turned up and are better than I expected so I may use them.
    And do you know the weight ?

  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by GMF
    The worst case thermal condition is still air. Design to that. Any air flow (riding) will quickly cool the light enough that finning designed for still air will be more than adequate.
    This has been true so far. Lights with one power setting need to be designed for highest cooling when stationary.
    If you are using multiple power levels cooling was a non issue because at any speed where there is little airflow you need little light. Dunno if this is true with the MC-E as the power density is 3x.
    Ideally light levels would ramp smoothly off the speedo sensor and go from 50lm stopped to 1500lm at 40kph. This would mean all you would need to play with when riding is an on/off button.

    ps, troutie, that light is fantastic.

  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by GMF
    Basically, if your light is only warm to the touch after about 15 minutes of sitting on the bench (you can hold your finger to it for ~10 seconds without it hurting), you are doing fine thermally. This assumes you have a quality heat path within the light (LED to outside world) and what you are touching is aluminum.
    15 minutes you could cook eggs on my quad cree R2 light after 5 minutes if I left it on that long on the bench and it trips the Bflex set at 60 degrees in 2 minutes




    , But with a small airflow from a little battery fan it only just gets warm,


    my take on this is if it heats up quickly and has a reasonable mass then it has a good thermal path to the outside as long as it cools fast with an suitable airflow

    I am going to use the MM E`s on stars for ease so should have a good path , would be better to use bare emitters direct to the light body .

    I still have the option of drilling small holes down the back of the leds which would get air flowing nearer the emitters , but that would really spoil the look of the light so would be a last resort
    as it is a tiny hole up from the bottom to behind the leds and I would be able to measure the heat close up .

    Quote Originally Posted by dweeby
    I don't think mine will be quite as good but I will start it very soon.
    Dont undersell yourself just take your time and be carefull you only have the one lump I had 3 attempts .

    weight not got any good scales but averaged between 40 / 60 grammes can that be right , have to visit post office and weigh it there.

    Quote Originally Posted by zmonit
    ps, troutie, that light is fantastic.
    Thanks Znomit thats cool from the MASTER OF MINIMAL

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    just done a costing

    I have just been working out what this project is going to cost me.

    2- cree MC E `s on stars @ $25.49 = $50.98
    2 optics @ $ 7.95 = $15.90
    postage from cutters $10.00
    ----------
    sub total $ 76.88
    2 - Bflex from taskled @ $30 = $ 60.00 I have the Bflex`s allready
    postage $ 10.00
    =======
    total $ 146.88 or 74.28 in uk money
    that leaves 25 for stuff like switches and conectors and stuff.

    so 100 or $200 for 1500 lumen ( possibly) light makes me

  93. #93
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    Power Supply

    So Troutie what are you using to power this beast?

    2 bFlex, are you going to run a driver for each light and if so powered in parrallel from the one source?

    I have three sets of lights already but this thread has me absolutely addicted again

  94. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by emu26
    So Troutie what are you using to power this beast?

    2 bFlex, are you going to run a driver for each light and if so powered in parrallel from the one source?

    I have three sets of lights already but this thread has me absolutely addicted again
    one of these with an adaptor from the sandwichshoppe over at CPF



    I am planning to use the 2 Bflex one for each side they are going to live in side the stem
    and I then need a good small conector for the battery to plug it to this is going to be installed in the stem somewhere .

    I thing I should get 2.5 hours from the battery but the maths is not my strong point .
    maybe more as Znomit points out you dont need that many lumins often..

    but what is this need , it is want that matters

  95. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by troutie-mtb
    but what is this need , it is want that matters
    and who wins the pi$$ing contest at the "light off" competition with your mates

    I love it mate. You've made one of the slickest looking bar lights I have ever seen. Cut the weight down by using the stem to house the controllers and using the housing as the stem faceplate but then, "wait for it there's more", you whip out a 2nd hand 18v power tool battery to fire the beast up Thats gold

    But here is where I get confused. If the MC E needs 4 x 3.6v each plus 1 for the driver then each light needs 15.4volts. So how do you drive two from the one battery. Do you have to run the drivers in parrallel or series from the battery?

  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by emu26
    Do you have to run the drivers in parrallel or series from the battery?
    Bflex has a "slave mode". You hook two together and they run synchronised off the same control switch and battery but drive different LED strings. Each MC-E gets its own bflex. Clever little device.

    Troutie, i think you've wasted a lot of time making that light pretty.
    Nobody is going to appreciate it, they'll all be rolling around screaming AAAARRRGH MY RETINAS HAVE BEEN BURNED OUT

  97. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by emu26
    and who wins the pi$$ing contest at the "light off" competition with your mates

    I love it mate. You've made one of the slickest looking bar lights I have ever seen. Cut the weight down by using the stem to house the controllers and using the housing as the stem faceplate but then, "wait for it there's more", you whip out a 2nd hand 18v power tool battery to fire the beast up ?


    Muahha muahha Who wins the p1$$ing contest

    Why Me of course















































    Ha Ha they are not really all mine but I have built them all

    I did think of doing a beamshot but could not find anywhere dark enough

  98. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by znomit
    Bflex has a "slave mode". You hook two together and they run synchronised off the same control switch and battery but drive different LED strings. Each MC-E gets its own bflex. Clever little device.

    Troutie, i think you've wasted a lot of time making that light pretty.
    Nobody is going to appreciate it, they'll all be rolling around screaming AAAARRRGH MY RETINAS HAVE BEEN BURNED OUT
    I have been thinking about slaving them , and was going to ask you which you think is best slave and one switch controls all , or 2 switchs and control each seperate.

    cheers Chris

  99. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by troutie-mtb
    I have been thinking about slaving them , and was going to ask you which you think is best slave and one switch controls all , or 2 switchs and control each seperate.

    cheers Chris
    I would run them slaved. 2 switches is too complicated.

  100. #100

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    Great job guys,
    This is simply the coolest bike light design idea I've seen since I started looking here and at candlpowerforums. Awesome job. To bad I don't have the time money or skill to try to make one for my stem.

  101. #101
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    Variable speed drive

    Quote Originally Posted by znomit
    Ideally light levels would ramp smoothly off the speedo sensor and go from 50lm stopped to 1500lm at 40kph. This would mean all you would need to play with when riding is an on/off button..
    Now there's an idea - easy if dynamo driven.
    Probably just as easy to do by using a thermistor instead of the pot in the dimmable versions of the drivers. Slow or stationary = hot = reduced current. Moving = cooler = increased current = increased light. Might be tricked by rain, but idea seems feasible.

    Some drivers already have temp compensation to prevent thermal runaway on the LED chip.
    Can't be hard to mod them to do this. The driver I have has 5k pot to adjust from 350mA to 1050mA - will start looking for suitable thermistor and see what happens

    Phil

  102. #102
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    Cheers clifbar all comments welcome specialy good ones.

    This is what has been happening this evening I have the 2 bflex drivers wich had been in some other lights for a while and these are what I am going to use for the Trout light,

    It took me some time to un solder the wires now that is a pain to do .
    then I havw wired them in master and slave mode that made my brain hurt



    I also made a module that is a nice tight fit inside the stem from some delrin






    A question to the experts would you pot the drivers in the holder or just seal it up with silicon.


    I needed to see if it fit the bars so took some piccys too






    Do you think it should be black and stealthy

  103. #103
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    Looking good!

    Out of interest, how are you going to get INTO the stem to place all the leccy gubbins??

    DrP

  104. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrP
    Looking good!

    Out of interest, how are you going to get INTO the stem to place all the leccy gubbins??

    DrP
    DrP take the light off remove the bars and there is a big hollow inside the stem which the capsule fits in

  105. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by troutie-mtb
    Do you think it should be black and stealthy
    Yep.
    Wow, that really is the coolest light.
    You really have raised the bar for all of us on this one.

  106. #106
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    Idea! Stealth?

    You've got to be kidding me mate, there ain't no way you'll be going anywhere in "stealth" mode with that thing turned on

    Znomit, thanks. I didn't know about the stealth mode. Is it a feature on the current models or has been there on all of them? Maybe I should send George an email

    Ok now Troutie a couple of things for you. I don't know what type of riding you do but can I suggest you shorten your cables as much as physically possible. I used to leave my bar lights on the bike all the time but then I OTB on the approach side of a 3ft log. I caught my hydro hoses between the light and the log, coming within a bees dick of cutting through them You've clearly got more skill in the garage than I do so I assume you probably do on the bike as well, wouldn't be hard really, but just thought I should share.

    The other thing is, do you plan on wiring through the back of the lights, through the bar and into the stem or are you going to come out of the bottom of the light, loop under the bar and then into the bottom of the stem via a hole? I might be a little concerned about drilling through the bars at their centre point. Then again I don't know if it would be of more of a concern having a couple of holes through your stem.

    It would be really cool if you could feed the wires out the other end of the stem, through a small hole in the steerer and mod / manufacture a headset cap that incorporated a plug and switch. Just thinking out loud

    Go on, you know you want to take up that challenge

  107. #107
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    Cheers emu26
    yes looking at the pics the cables could do with shortening a tad and as the forks compress might move up into the way and cause shadows another project while waiting for the leds to arrive

    the current plan is to enter the light head underneath and into the stem underneath at the front there is room for a 4 mm hole in the centre next to the bars .

    at the back it is still in the thinking about and is the next bit to tackle.
    good idea the top cap one Ta and I will be looking at it soon and I do have plenty of unstressed steerer tube to go at .

    I want the MC E and optics now to complete the job

  108. #108
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    Here is where I am at now , got the 2 Bflex`s wired as master and slave and tested and working nicely .
    got the capsule ready for the bflexs and now looking at routing the wires so next a few piccys like exploded diagrams









    I have left the plastic module out so you can see it naked.





    I have some ideas on how I should go with the wiring but would like some suggestions
    from on here please



    I am looking closly at emu26 suggestion

    Quote Originally Posted by emu62
    It would be really cool if you could feed the wires out the other end of the stem, through a small hole in the steerer and mod / manufacture a headset cap that incorporated a plug and switch. Just thinking out loud
    The cable I am using for the leds is an old usb cable wich has 4 cores and is nice and flexible .

  109. #109
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    one other thing I found out about 30 seconds after I had made the capsule for the Bflex`s was this



    a dremel cut off wheel container is just the right size for 2 bflexs not only that but also this



    it is also just the right size to fit in my hope stem


  110. #110
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    All coming along nicely Troutie

    My plan is to use the grooves that are already in the Thomson stem to run the wire without drilling any holes. Your Hope stem is different though but these pictures should give you an idea of what I mean.

    Good luck.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  111. #111
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    Does that channel follow on round the stem too.

  112. #112
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    Yes, where I have put a red bit on your pic. however looking at yours I think you should go over and not under the bars and you will only require a short channel. As I have had this in my head for a year I've worked out most of the probs. But I don't think you can avoid drilling a small hole in the steerer.

    A 2.5mm DC socket from maplins is a nice fit in the centre of the top cap but you will have to put a liitle cap on it when not in use.

  113. #113
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    Silly red blobs are all you have to remove and you can run the wire to the back of the LEDs.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  114. #114
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    Probably weight saving

    Quote Originally Posted by troutie-mtb
    Does that channel follow on round the stem too.
    Yes, on the Thomson Elite it does.



    Without bar


    The clamping mechanism might need to be modified, but that's not crucial to the structural integrity of the stem.

    I was wondering how you were going to pull that off without modifying that Hope. It's not a piece of equipment that I'd change without worrying about catastrophic failure...
    Slow-core. -.. .-. .. -. -.- .... --- -- . -... .-. . .--

  115. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by troutie-mtb
    Does that channel follow on round the stem too.
    Same on the X4
    Attached Images Attached Images

  116. #116
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    Thanks Bruce and Ron the Thompson stem looks tailor made for the stem light .

    I have been studying my hope stem and with your feedback it looks like I can remove a channel without losing any structual strength like in Dweeby s red blobs pic .
    one problem for me if I go the top route is I would need to drill a bent hole I think my best and easyiest route is underneath , there will be a bit of cable showing but it will be underneath .

    There is no problem with drilling a 4 mm hole in the steerer tube , because where you need to drill it is not clamped or stressed


    How is the sawing going Dweeby when I saw some new posts I thought it would be some pics from the dweeby workshop.

  117. #117
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    OK, here are some pics of the state of the art Dweeby workshop.

    The good thing is the aluminium is a lot softer than I am used to but it is very easy to cut off more than required......

    ....which I already have! Might be OK though.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  118. #118
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    my first post on this forum and thought it may as well be to troutie, well done mate, it will be great to see some shots of it in action once youve finished it

  119. #119
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    Well they say the first cut is the deepest it looks ok still from the pics
    lets have some good weather for a few weeks to keep the workshop dry..

    Hi Smudge mate
    Welcome to the nut house. just the man what battery to run 2 cree mce leds for about 3 hours .
    and have you seen a connector that I could fit into a stem top cap needs to be small and mudproof

    I am wanting to put a switch and connector in there dont really want to drill into the stem

    yes I cant wait to see it lit up so hoping Cutters do a quick job when they come into stock.
    I got my order in last week. probably at the bottom of a long list
    Last edited by troutie-mtb; 07-13-2008 at 10:58 PM.

  120. #120
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    what a design bud, the Mutts Nuts !!..

    here is your start to production bud, i hope the led's have a nice pattern for boh width and distance then your really got it nailed !..

    (i also joined up just to reply to this :-)

  121. #121
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    Hi Mr -dither
    Welcome .
    Thanks for the comments , it gives you a rosy glow when good comments come in .

    I got your pm and will reply this evening

  122. #122
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    i really like this idea here too, but there was a lack of some form of lock on the swivel joint..

    have a look at this pic to possibly spark some form of idea as to adjusting swivel point
    "https://www.fatbmx.com/uploads3/2008/wk16/bckye4.jpg"

    i'll try to draw something up on pc as to what i mean and post it up :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by troutie-mtb
    Whoa , way to go Dweeby , just cant resist
    are you a salesman , you sweet talking ( sold the idea to the missus )

    cant wait to see some pics how you are going to do it.


    here is a doodle of my adjustable idea not really sure how to do it though
    and keep the good thermal contact.
    the more I think about it I think you just need to get the angles right first time .





    please update us as you progress

  123. #123
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    here is an idea i had from your design...

    this would be the adjustment that you then required, not sure how you'd then route the wires (guess they would be bottom feed)

    excuse the rought free hand

    light3.jpg

  124. #124
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    headset cap for the switch and power input

    I have been working on the solution to getting power in and a switch to control the Bflex`s
    I really dont want to drill holes in my Hope stem so this is what I am thinking .

    The cap has an M6 allen bolt that runs into the star nut in the steerer tube which gets in the way of putting the switch and socket there .

    So I propose to make a cap which does the job in a slightly different wat to normal

    here is a rough diagram



    I have not drawn the stem in to keep it simple .

    The wires will enter the steerer tube through a small hole drilled in to the steerer inside the stem.

    I need to find a suitable small power input socket and plug next .

  125. #125
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    All hail Troutie, the king of design!!

    Ok so I'm not sure about the mechanics of this but I would try and keep the star nut up high enough that it is within the depth of the stem if you know what I mean. It probably wouldn't be an issue if it were lower as the star nut is only used to compress everything until the stem is tightened to the steerer but you can never be too safe.

    If you're pushed for room and you are going to manufacture your own cap why not just make it a bit taller to give you more room above the star nut.

    Sorry about not getting back to your PM. All my tools are packed away at the moment, if someone else puts their hands up then let them have it.

    Cheers

    Stuart

  126. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by emu26
    If you're pushed for room and you are going to manufacture your own cap why not just make it a bit taller to give you more room above the star nut
    it is not the room above the starnut that is the problem it is the 10mm countersunk hole for the M6 bolt that takes up too much room .

    with the Bflex switch it needs a min of 9 mm of the cap then a power socket which I estimate will need an 8 mm hole so will need 10 mm so it is the bolt head that is in the way .

    with my design I can get rid of the bolt head and win the 4 mm back so it should just work
    and my steerer is a 1-1/4 so it would be even tighter with an 1-1/8 steerer.

    I could do it like znomit with a boltless topcap and preload the headset first then push in the new cap

    I have got plenty of time to ponder this one unless the MCE`s drop through the letterbox today

  127. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by troutie-mtb
    I could do it like znomit with a boltless topcap and preload the headset first then push in the new cap
    Yeah, ktroniks idea but the guy at the LBS agreed it was fine. You'll maybe need to mod the original cap to clear the wires.
    Why don't you run the power up from the bottom of the steerer tube, around the star nut? Not sure what you,ve got in mind for power but makes sense for water bottle batteries. Small mom switch can be drilled into the existing cap.
    Otherwise, I found mounting the switch on the underside of the stem very ergonomic.

  128. #128
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    we`re not worthy, we`re not worthy, ........

    i`m surprised your not having the switch on the bars !!
    how about the power socket on a short/long lead
    not as neat but .........

  129. #129
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    Gone And Done It Now + A Beamshot

    Quote Originally Posted by HEY HEY ITS HENDO
    i`m surprised your not having the switch on the bars !!
    how about the power socket on a short/long lead
    not as neat but .........
    wow hey hey its hendo you must be psychic

    right after lots of pondering I have finaly gon and drilled holes in my hope stem
    for the wires.



    and steerer tube







    I would have the switch installed in this photo but the little ba$tard is hiding some where on my garage floor



    and now here is the psychic bit




    And now the bit you have all been waiting for
    a beamshot































































    Ha Ha Ha the leds are not here yet

  130. #130
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    "Ha Ha Ha the leds are not here yet"
    .............. .............. Christmas perhaps???

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  132. #132
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    Should I Be Worried :???:

    Because I have nothing better to do while waiting for the mc-e`s and optics to be sent from cutters I have been looking at what I am doing and just realised that the Bflex steps 350-500-750-1000 ma
    now looking at cutters site and the cree mce they say maximum off 700ma.

    I am not anyway electronics savvy - will my leds be ok driven at 750ma or am I to only to drive them at 500ma
    I know the 50ma over is not a lot but when I asked George at taskled if the 20 volt input for the Bflex could be 21 volt he said no as the spec said 20 v , ok now they are 25 volt so no problem for the newer ones.

    also they say 790 lumens max at 700ma so for you electronic people out there what should I expect from 500 ma and if ok to overdrive 750 ma
    Last edited by troutie-mtb; 07-16-2008 at 11:36 AM.

  133. #133
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    i can`t see a problem, even the "bog standard" XR-E spec says max 700ma
    and do you stick to 700ma .... nah i didn`t think so lol
    ............... of course more current = more heat, this could be a major issue

  134. #134
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    Yeah the XR-E came out with a 700mA spec. I guess people started over driving them to 1A without trouble so Cree upped the spec to 1A. 750mA no worries. I expect the bflex wont explode at 20.1v either but George has to draw the line somewhere.

    Troutie here is a good chart of a Q5 V/P/lm from one of the boffins at CPF. I think the MC-E is a little behind on lumens but should be close.
    Total output for your setup:
    750mA about 1500lm. 20.5W
    500mA around 1100lm. 13.2W
    Note 36% increase in lumens but 55% increase in power(and only 2/3 runtime).

    Me? I'd run it at 500mA because 1100lm is heaps. Actually I'd run both in parallel off a single 1A bflex.

  135. #135
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    Cheers guys for the reasurance .

    Quote Originally Posted by znomit
    Me? I'd run it at 500mA because 1100lm is heaps. Actually I'd run both in parallel off a single 1A bflex.
    I did consider running off 1 bflex and it would be $30 cheaper but as this is a very new project I wanted to be able to push the 2 MC E a to at least its rated maximum .mainly to see how hot it will get and how fast , and if the bars will do a good job of sucking the heat out and cooling it.

    when I started this thread I was looking for a light that gave the most light from the minimum size , and with the help from all those who chipped in with advice and ideas I think we have achieved a very cool looking light that can be left on the bike all the time ,
    and ultimatly run from a dynohub in the future , that is where you 3 dyno boffins will be harrased for advice probably next year .

    I did consider paralelling then from a maxflex then they would get the full 700ma


    I am well aware of the heat this will be able to generate if pushed hard from the quad R2 lights I have built when run at 1000ma and so when I hand it over to the owner it is set to max at 750 ma and they dont get to find out how to change it .


    I am now ready to just instal the leds and optics plug in the battery and switch on camera ready for the beamshots

    I dont do waiting very well so might finish the mk2 swivle version and put 2 Q5`s in it.

    So I quess this thread goes in to the pending file for now I wonder how dweeby is getting on with his .
    Last edited by troutie-mtb; 07-16-2008 at 10:43 PM.

  136. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by troutie-mtb
    ...and ultimatly run from a dynohub


    ...I did consider paralelling then from a maxflex then they would get the full 700ma
    Once you go dyno you'll never go back to batteries...

    I think nightlightning run bflexes at 1200mA...Dunno if the hardware can go to 1400mA or not. Maybe ask George if he can reflash yours to 1400 while you wait for the LEDs.

  137. #137
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    some real beamshots this time

    Ok so here are some beamshots from the carclo website , mc-e and their optics .




    What would you put in my light if it was yours .

    I have also ordered an extra MCE and 26.5 optic to make a helmet light and I might start the housing for that but I am not sure wether to go for a 20 mm optic and make a tiny helmet light . or a 26.5 mm optic and make a slightly larger one

    is the bigger one likley to be a better beam than the smaller optic
    and which would you put in your helmet light .

    I have used the eliptical in a previous build and really like its side spill so for the stem light I have ordered an eliptical and a tight plain to throw down the trail .

  138. #138
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    ............. .."I dont do waiting very well".............

    so, how long d`ya reckon we gonna have to wait troutie ??
    just noticed mark posted this last week .....
    https://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...6&postcount=23
    .
    and i`m gonna see if this hope light can be upgraded with my 2 MC-E



    .......... whichever way you go i`d get the medium frosted flavor

  139. #139
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    Troutie for the bar light I would have gone a medium throw and an eliptical for the side throw. I think the narrow will be too tight for the distance you are going to throw .

    For the helmet, " small is beautiful" but here is where you might have a problem with just the one "high powered" light. I've found the best combo is a medium throw and a narrow. A single narrow on an MCE might be too tight to be effective at "medium" distance throw, so just past the 30m of your bar lights but a medium beam pattern might be too wide for that much light, sending you "trail blind" from the reflections of the trees lining your favourite sniggle.

    Decisions decisions, tough dilema to be in huh?

  140. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by HEY HEY ITS HENDO
    ............. .."I dont do waiting very well".............

    so, how long d`ya reckon we gonna have to wait troutie ??
    just noticed mark posted this last week .....
    https://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...6&postcount=23
    .
    and i`m gonna see if this hope light can be upgraded with my 2 MC-E



    .......... whichever way you go i`d get the medium frosted flavor

    Cutters were quite quick when the R2 was announced , in fact they ran out of stock fast also , and if it is a list of orders I think you are a couple of weeks in front of my order so will probably get yours first

    re the hope now that will be one hell of an upgrade from
    300 lumens to 1400 lumens

    one small step for hey hey its hendo one qiant leap for lumenkind

  141. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by emu26
    Troutie for the bar light I would have gone a medium throw and an eliptical for the side throw. I think the narrow will be too tight for the distance you are going to throw .

    For the helmet, " small is beautiful" but here is where you might have a problem with just the one "high powered" light. I've found the best combo is a medium throw and a narrow. A single narrow on an MCE might be too tight to be effective at "medium" distance throw, so just past the 30m of your bar lights but a medium beam pattern might be too wide for that much light, sending you "trail blind" from the reflections of the trees lining your favourite sniggle.

    Decisions decisions, tough dilema to be in huh?
    Yes emu26 you talk much sense for the twin stem light.

    I was going to make a torch with the third one and wanted it to be a spot and thrower to spot house numbers from my van , but have changed my mind and am going for a helmet light , I wonder what the eliptical would be like for the helmet , there would be plenty of lumens coming out and non wasted going up in to the trees , just depends how far down trail it shines .

  142. #142
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    I asked George

    Quote Originally Posted by znomit
    I think nightlightning run bflexes at 1200mA...Dunno if the hardware can go to 1400mA or not. Maybe ask George if he can reflash yours to 1400 while you wait for the LEDs.

    OK I asked George the question and this is what he says



    troutie
    Newbie

    Posts: 20


    is this possible
    on: July 17, 2008, 10:33:04 AM

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Hi George
    This has been suggested on the mtbr forum and I wondered if it was possible
    I am making a dual mce light to replace the face plate on my stem
    and as you know the mce max`s at 700ma at the moment
    I am using 2 bflex as master and slave , but znomit suggested this

    I think nightlightning run bflexes at 1200mA...Dunno if the hardware can go to 1400mA or not. Maybe ask George if he can reflash yours to 1400 while you wait for the LEDs.

    so that is the question as it would be nice to run 2 mce leds from 1 bflex in paralel , is this possible .

    I am about to send an order for a couple of bflex but will wait for an answer first

    Thanks Chris

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------




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    Re: is this possible
    Reply #1 on: July 18, 2008, 12:07:26 PM

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Max output for bFlex with UI-uni firmware is 1000mA. Nightlighting's firmware is set for 1200mA.

    Electrical limit for the bFlex driver is 1200mA, so it is not possible to modify the firmware for 1400mA.

    cheers,
    george.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    troutie
    Newbie

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    Re: is this possible
    Reply #2 on: Today at 12:19:09 AM

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Thanks George.

    We are a greedy lot always wanting more .

    I dont suppose that with the way led design is going that you are
    planning a redesign for your drivers to up the ante with output
    just to satisfy the greedy light builders out here.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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    Re: is this possible
    Reply #3 on: Today at 08:45:18 AM

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    No - giiven that 1A covers the majority of high powered LEDs I don't see a compelling reason to redesign the drivers. It takes a lot of effort to design a driver that is stable over a wide input/output voltage range AND current range.

    I have built a lot of prototypes to test different driver chips to see if I could find ones that would be stable up to 2A and I haven't found any that I'm happy with, yet - that would also provide a compact solution.

    Yes, you all are a greedy lot

    cheers,
    george.

  143. #143
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    Whats the difference between elliptical and elliptical orthogonal?

  144. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by znomit
    Whats the difference between elliptical and elliptical orthogonal?
    I thought the orthogonal was elipticle but up and down

    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    (Redirected from Orthogonal)
    Jump to: navigation, search
    In mathematics, orthogonal, as a simple adjective not part of a longer phrase, is a generalization of perpendicular. It means "at right angles". The word comes from the Greek ὀρθός (orthos), meaning "straight", and γωνία (gonia), meaning "angle". Two streets that cross each other at a right angle are orthogonal to one another. In recent years, "perpendicular" has come to be used more in relation to right angles outside of a coordinate plane context, whereas "orthogonal" is used when discussing vectors or coordinate geometry.


    I think the photo might be wrong

    and surly you can just turn the optic through 90 degrees

  145. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by troutie-mtb
    I thought the orthogonal was elipticle but up and down
    ...
    I think the photo might be wrong
    and surly you can just turn the optic through 90 degrees
    Yeah, nah. It only fits on the LED one way so you'd need to turn the LED and optic 90 degrees.
    Would make sense if it was set at 45 degrees so it kinda blurred out the gap between the dies.
    Anyhooo, I see big possibilities for high/low beam action here.

  146. #146
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    ..........I see big possibilities for high/low beam action here.

    what, like main/dipped on a car lol

  147. #147
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    Anyhooo, I see big possibilities for high/low beam action here.

    Sounds a cool idea how you gonna make it work .
    not that I want to steal your ideas

    question on the dyno side .
    can you use a maxflex with a dynohub ,

    also can you not have a small battery back up that switches in when you stop to keep the light on and also charges from the dyno.

  148. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by troutie-mtb
    Sounds a cool idea how you gonna make it work .
    not that I want to steal your ideas

    question on the dyno side .
    can you use a maxflex with a dynohub ,

    also can you not have a small battery back up that switches in when you stop to keep the light on and also charges from the dyno.
    Just looking at 2 MC-E on the dyno. Switch between a voltage doubler with 4LED(250mA low beam) to a full wave rectifier with all 8 LEDs at 500mA . Need to ask Martin about it to see if it will work. Project for next summer probably. Yes I get hassled by cars with my lights on high so powering the 4 lower dies most of the time would be good. It would also put more light right in front of me most of the time with the ability to light everything when needed.
    The "low beam" would probably be three narrow with the one pointing at oncoming traffic turned off, plus one elliptical.

    Maxflex, dunno why you would, the circuits at pilom.com are very efficient(95%). You could build a rectifier/regulator to drive the maxflex but thats getting complicated.

    Battery charging thread here. You could always run a single die separately off batteries. 2AAs and a micropuck give 350mA for 2-3hrs. On the MTB I have a helmet light and on the road bike I have a blinky so I'm always lit when stopped.

  149. #149

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    So for an adjustable angle version, is it the right idea to have the bar clamp plate concave and the light convex? How about vice-versa?

    The bar clamp plate is already convex, so a replacement part with a circular (horizontal cylindrical) profile would provide a surface a concave-backed light unit to rotate on.

    A vertical slot cut in the stem clamp would allow you to screw into a hole in the back of the lamp unit to mount and adjust it.

    Sorry no drawings... Make sense?

    Hub dynamo has to be the way to go! They're able to light the 8 LEDs @ 500mA.

  150. #150
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    Hi sping

    I take it you mean some thing a bit like this


    it looks like a simpler way
    I may do a mockup and see what it looks like

  151. #151

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    Quote Originally Posted by troutie-mtb
    Hi sping

    I take it you mean some thing a bit like this

    ...snip...

    it looks like a simpler way
    I may do a mockup and see what it looks like
    Yeah, that's what I was thinking. With a vertical slot in the plate, so that a screw into the light unit could attach it and adjust up/down.

    Edit: and the light unit wouldn't be perpendicular, since most stems are angled. Some sort of common compromise (30 degrees?) starting angle, so it could adjust around that.

  152. #152
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    OK I have got bored now , the helmet light

    Hi folks I am bored waiting for the mce to come out
    so I am now going to start the design and machining of a dual MCE helmet light
    or should I say we will design and I will attempt the manufacture

    I have a few ideas what I want but dont want to influence the creativaty of the brains on here .
    so a few questions to start with .

    it is to be 2 mce so should it be 20 mm or 26.5 mm optics . they say a good big one will beat a good small one .

    as this will be on the helmet it wont have the help from the bars to dispose of heat so it will need to be a good design.
    is there a minimum surface area recomended for a single xre led for heatsinking

    driving the 2 mce if I use one bflex then the max I can get is 500ma
    2 bflex and I can drive them at anything up to max 1000ma but then it becomes expensive and needs more space .

    I don`t want to use a boost driver and have to heatsink that too
    and I already have my 18 volt drill batteries and am not worried about the extra weight in my pack helps the workout.

    so it is a blank canvas with only the 2 MCE leds as the starting point.



    yes i know znomit

  153. #153
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    There is an old rule that you need 1 square inch of surface per Watt of led power.

  154. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by super-fast
    There is an old rule that you need 1 square inch of surface per Watt of led power.
    Ta
    so for this project ,what watts = 1 MCE @ 700ma , and lets overdrive it @1000ma
    and then build in a safety margin for still air somewhere hotter than the UK

  155. #155
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    1 MCE:
    P=3,6 * 1 * 4 = 14,4 Watt that's quite a lot of surface

  156. #156
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    Hey good call.
    My curtain rail triple is 11W and outside aluminum surface is 7.5 sq inches. Another 4.5sq inches forced air duct inside the back = 12. Im guessing forcing the air in increases the heat transfer to the air. It doesn't get hot while riding but its a lot warmer than other lights I've made.

    A nice little MC-E double will be 5x3cm front and 3 deep. 7sq inch area. 700mA x 3.5v x 8 = 20w(no overdrive troutie 1A bad), need another 13sq inches.

    So you need a tardis light thats bigger on the inside than the outside.

    Basically a double skinned housing with slots all around all the way through and between the LEDs too, they can open wider behind the LEDs, put the driver in the batterypack (run a 4core wire to the light so the control button/switch can be on the light). How thin/deep can you machine?


    Troutie its gonna be heaps of light so just build it and if it burns your head turn the power down. Its still 1000lm at 500mA.

  157. #157
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    wow 20 sq inches minimum that is not going to be easy.

    Where is DR Who when you need him.

    so it might be better to go with the larger 26 mm optics just for the extra metal in the housing .

  158. #158
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    Good theory page at
    http://robots.freehostia.com/Heatsin...sinksBody.html
    Riding along = forced air.
    Fog or rain should absorb more, but water-cooled is getting a bit heavy on a helmet..

    To get big surface area easily Maybe use an of-the-shelf add-on like this:
    http://www.jaycar.co.nz/productView.asp?ID=HH8518
    Last edited by fre3ud; 07-26-2008 at 04:08 AM.

  159. #159
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    thanks fre3ud that is a good link

    when I have read it another 10 times i may understand it all but some good pointers there

  160. #160
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    just an update on the heat management .

    I have put 2 Q5 leds on 20mm stars in the stem light with 2 ledil optics
    and I have them powered at 1000ma to see how the heat built up so did a very low tech test using my hands as the heat tester .

    first I ran the light off the bike sat on my bench at full power and timed it untill it got uncomfortable to touch , also I could touch the housing right at the back of the leds but it did not seem to be any different to the rest of the housing the light got to a point heatwise that was like a hot bath in 8 minutes just slowly getting warmer all the time.
    I then switched on a desk fan at its lowest setting about 2 feet away from the light and within 1 minute it had cooled to about ambient , which I forgot to mention was 20c.

    Next I put the stem light on the bike using copper grease because it is a temperary arrangment , instead of thermal grease and switched on at full , it is now 1hour later in still air in my garage with ambient the same 20c and the light and bars have not warmed at all to touch

    This does suggest to me that the concept for using the bars for heatsinking is a good one
    now how this will work when using the 2 proposed MCE emitters with another 6 leds producing heat will be an interesting time .

    I may try and do a more accurate test if I can borrow a good multimeter with temp
    or could I use a meat thermometer .

    A few more pics to follow later

  161. #161
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    because it is going to be a few weeks I wanted to see if I had got the angles somewhere near so as the post above put 2 Q5s in and hopefully will see what the angles are when it gets dark .
    so here are a couple of pics of where it is so far.



    it is hard to imagine that soon there will be 4 times the power from each side of this light.
    in such a small footprint




    if things work out I may try to get a beamshot or 2 this evening .

  162. #162
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    Is this as a stupid idea or could it just work

    Ok I am sat here in a red wine induced mellow thinking mood

    and suddenly As I am think that the biggest problem with the MCE package is the fact that we will have 4 times the heat output as a standard XRE in the same footprint
    and some of the diy brigade will be packing multiple mce`s in a compact stupidly powerfull light and thying to keep it cool too.

    This is where the stem light and also a design that can fit closely to the bars come in and if I am correct not only will we have the larger surface otf the stem and bars to dissipate heat what about this for a simple and hopefully very efficient extra cooling method


    the light is mounted on the bars either a light like mine or on each side of the stem , the bars are hollow with a plug in each end so a small ammount of water inside the bars and each end sealed then this water will slosh about as you are riding and take the heat with it and disperse it all over the bars it will be constantly moving as you ride and the bars will be like a radiator , and Ibet you would not need that much liquid in the bars weight wise .

    Or have I been drinking too much wine
    Last edited by troutie-mtb; 07-26-2008 at 02:14 PM.

  163. #163
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    Hi Troutie
    This thread is now really two projects:
    - the MCE bleeding edge light - with the heat control "challenge"
    - the world beating "stem light" concept.

    I think you are well under way with the heat control, but I'm not sure the MCE is really intended for this use. The beam shots from Carclo look a bit uspect to me too.
    Be aware that water once heated is quite hard to cool, and that warm or hot water attacks and corrodes metals faster than cold water.

    However, without wishing to diminish in any way the achievment so far. I think we need to get more adjustment into the angle of the "stem light". I know I often adjust both my helment light and my head-tube light (I have one there as it gives better surface definition and more stabilty cf bar-mount). The most common need is based on terrain - flatter/faster I want light to lead more, slower/technical I want pool of light closer in.
    So I think we (you) might need to put some more effort into this aspect before the small object arrive from Cutter.
    I'm guessing that you have test ridden this with the Q5 by now and the heat with them will be fine (and maybe a hand warmer for the cold winter nights), but I'm also guessing you've started re-thinking about the adjustability too.

    A question of my own, if I may:
    does anyone know with a triple lens if you get a better light pattern to use it it any particular orientation - two at top or two at bottom?

    Phil

  164. #164
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    Fre3ud
    Thanks again for some good comments
    and you are right it has turned into the 2 projects you mention and I am quite happy that the (small objects have not arrived yet ) as I would have rushed in to a build that I may have regretted.

    No I have not yet test ridden the Q5 set up but as in my other posts there is no heat problem at all with just 2 leds in this setup in fact there is no hand warmer either

    The water idea was just a way to increase the surface area , like znomits tardis suggestion it could be a light oil not water and it will be moving most of the time so the heat it collects from the leds will be shared out over the full length of the bars .

    I do agree about the adjustabilaty factor and am working on that as I would be quite happy for a bespoke light for myself but how to reach the masses .

    on the optic question I have my thoughts that the triple should be the same whichever way you have it I have not noticed a pattern that would suggest otherwise.

  165. #165
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    It has now got dark and I can just about work the camera
    so here are the beamshots from my stem light

    but first some details
    2 Q5 s 1 ledil smooth spot and 1 ledil medium optic
    distance to garage from light and camera
    15 metres

    this pic = f2.8 @ 2 seconds


    this one f2.8 @ 1 second



    this one f2.8 @ .5 second


    and this one f 2.8 @ .25 second


    the big quesion is why am I bothering with a more powerfull light ?

    I have put all 4 shots in because they say the camera never lies
    but to my eyes number 2 is the most lifelike and it gives me a baseline for when the (small objects arrive )

  166. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by troutie-mtb
    the big quesion is why am I bothering with a more powerfull light ?
    Looking good troutie.

    The answer to the big question is Because you can.

    Regarding pointing if its a nice wide beam its not so important. I use the cutter 3/4 MR11s in narrow and wide and the beam doesn't really move around as I wobble up the hills or over bumps, the narrow maybe a little on the huge hills that my little legs struggle on.

    I do think the big benefits from MC-E are underdriving it and getting really good battery life. Maybe 40% longer compared to 1 LED at 1A. Realistically troutie you aren't going to be running it on full power all night just for those scary down hill runs (do you have hills in england?) where you'll get heaps of air cooling. Good to hear the heat is transfering to the bars, nice.
    You could throw some triple rebel stars and optics in there I guess. Thats around 20w total.

  167. #167
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    .... i also had thought of a small amount of distilled water in the bars, and because of the bars shape the water would always run to the centre as well as slopping about
    ...... or if the bar ends are open air will naturally draught through
    there are other ways to aim the world beating "stem light" concept, eg
    stem with different angle, longer/shorter forks, let some air out of one of your tires, etc etc
    and to Tim ...........yes we have some nice hills

  168. #168
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    Air scoop on one end of the bars and exhaust(scoop pointed backwards) on the other.

  169. #169
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    Some posters keep assuming the LED will be much hotter than single XR-E's. The Cree glossy says "without compromising thermal performance". To me that means wont get hotter than an XR-E. Have you done some temp tests troutie?

  170. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by scuppy
    Some posters keep assuming the LED will be much hotter than single XR-E's. The Cree glossy says "without compromising thermal performance". To me that means wont get hotter than an XR-E. Have you done some temp tests troutie?
    Its a given that they will run hotter, they pack more energy into the same footprint.

    I think what that glossy means is if you heatsink them properly they don't get hotter than the XR-E.
    Problem is they are 3x the watts so you need a much bigger heatsink.

    We like cute little lights without big ugly heatsinks hanging off them.

  171. #171
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    Hi Scuppy
    In answer to your question about testing , No testing yet because these MCE`s are not out in the real world yet
    Znomit sums it up nicely

    I can only go on past light building and useage to guess how hot they can get



    The light on the left started as a cutter triple Q5 and works great both riding and in still air
    I then put in a cutter quad R2 when they came out It still works great but in still air it gets hot faster and trips the Bflex thermal cutoff , even on a slow climb on a still night.

    now look at the stem light with 2 Q5 leds it heats up slowly when on the bench untill I chickened out but then on the bike where the bike = the big ugly heatsink hanging off the light no heat it does not even start to get warm

    but then add another 6 emitters , and it could be a different story

    And I do like the idea of a cree powered hand warmer for the frosty night rides

  172. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by troutie-mtb
    I have put all 4 shots in because they say the camera never lies
    but to my eyes number 2 is the most lifelike and it gives me a baseline for when the (small objects arrive )
    I think that since the full monty will be 3x what this is currently delivering that you might think about the shortest exposure shot as your baseline.

  173. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by znomit
    Its a given that they will run hotter, they pack more energy into the same footprint.
    Energy in the form of heat or light?

  174. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by scuppy
    Energy in the form of heat or light?
    Scuppy, the MC-E isn't doing anything particularly amazing. Its just 4 Cree EZ1000 dies (as seen in SSC P4, P7 and Cree XR-E) put together really close. The business of turning electricity into heat and light is still exactly the same, assuming you're putting the same power in. Its just now we can put more power in.

  175. #175
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    Now we know it will work sort of I now have a dilemma do I take the mx3 to bits and replace the Q5s with the MCEs when they arrive .

    or do I make a mk4 with the 26 mm optics and is there any advantage of the 26mm over the 20mm optics.

    Or do I thanks to cytoe do a triple for the stem light

    I am leaning towards a triple with the third driven seperatly with a view of running it from a dyno in the future

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    I say triple..

    of course If you used 26mm optics in that form factor, that would require bigger holes = even less mass to dissipate heat...right?

  177. #177
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    mm correct I have been measuring my spare piece of alli and it can fit a double @ 26 mm
    or a triple @ 20 mm
    and so close but not close enough for 2 @26mm and 1 @ 20mm .

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    I wonder if we will see triple/quad MR11 optics for MC-E

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    Quote Originally Posted by znomit
    I wonder if we will see triple/quad MR11 optics for MC-E
    I am sure someone will do it with the existing optics to see what it is like
    it would be easy to do , dont know about the liquid nitrogen tank though .

    What is the science with optics , in this new device is the same size as the old xre
    have the optic makers just tweaked the design or is it the same ?

  180. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by troutie-mtb
    What is the science with optics , in this new device is the same size as the old xre
    have the optic makers just tweaked the design or is it the same ?
    I assumed they would be different but Welight(Cutter) posted that they would be testing old optics to see if they were ok.

    The datasheets at cree show dome size etc so you could look it up.

    It might be like the SSC/Cree optics that fit on each other but you really need the proper optic on the proper LED to get the best beam.

    Also the individual optics in the MR11 are quite small(quad especially) so beam might show significant artifact(like the diff again between 26/20mm carlco). Rotating each MC-E a little should smooth things out.
    I guess you could make a 40mm housing and put two 20mm optics side by side, should nicely fit a MR11 later.
    Be a fiddle wiring up 4 individual LEDs...
    Last edited by znomit; 07-28-2008 at 10:05 PM.

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    mark 4 is born

    The decision has been made and a lump af aluminium attacked with a hacksaw and drill.





    I am going with a triple 20 mm optic setup with more metal in and I have offset the bottom led and optic like so


    when I tested the mk3 there was an area just in front of the bike with out light so I want to put a wide flood optic in the bottom .and experiment with the optics in the upper 2 lights.

    I have no idea yet which way I am going to configure and drive this beast yet and it may be a full beam and dipped with the option to have all three on .

  182. #182
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    cool!

    you must have even more time to waste than me So how do you make the bar side. I saw your earlier post, but wanted more detail. Do you 1st drill the biggest hold you can (1" or so?), then mount it to your lathe and bore out to the correct inside diameter, and flip around and repeat to catch the side that was originally used to mount to the lathe?

    thanks

  183. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by cytoe
    you must have even more time to waste than me So how do you make the bar side. I saw your earlier post, but wanted more detail. Do you 1st drill the biggest hold you can (1" or so?), then mount it to your lathe and bore out to the correct inside diameter, and flip around and repeat to catch the side that was originally used to mount to the lathe?

    thanks
    You are correct in everything there re time it beats watching tv when it is raining and it rains alot here in the UK

    yes I drilled upto 1 inch in steps then mounted to the lathe , oh for an independent 4 jaw chuck .
    then when bored out and cut in half I have 2 lumps of ali to play with that will each fit on the bars.

    then it is all hand work with drill / hack saw / files / and dremel .

    the 20mm holes for the optics are done with a 20 mm drill bit ground flat on the end and then resharpened to drill the flat bottomed hole then some work with the dremel to smooth the hole bottom for the led star,

  184. #184
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    Work in progress

    Work has slowed down for now for the best reason in the world
    I have just returned from an offroad ride with my 18 year old daughter , we did 10 miles and the last time she rode a mtb was 7 years ago I am well and she wants to get back into mountain biking


    anyway back on track I have done a couple of hours with the mk4 and here are the results





    Not a lot difference from the last pics now it is down to filing to get to the shape I would like .

    After reading the links that Fre3ud posted I am going with a beefier design and leaving lots more metal in the light . that is all for now Trout

  185. #185
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    File some grooves for more surface area

    Hey Troutie, why don't you use the point file you have, bottom right of the last pic, and file some grooves front to back along the light. If you file a groove 1mm deep, 1mm wide and have them spaced 1mm apart you will double the effective surface area of the light. File them 2mm deep and you triple it. Apart from increasing cooling area this also has the added advantage of reducing the weight of the housing. You clearly have the time

  186. #186
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    hand file grooves?

    I'd think they come out ghetto eh? That's what the mill is for...nice straight lines

  187. #187
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    I might have the time but I am not that masochistic , I did think about it when it was rough milled but did not like the look with the grooves .

    also the bottom led may only be a single Q5 as it is meant to flood the area just in front of the bike and I am not sure I want it to be too bright there and avoid any hotspot .

    and with the testing I have done I think cooling will be ok with out grooves

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    A good tip when using a file on a soft material is to use (lots of) engineers chalk on the file to prevent "pickup" and then scaring on the next stroke. It also helps when trying to rid the file of particles with the wire brush. Just incase you didn't know.

  189. #189
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    Ta searchtime good tip that.

    Reading through the link to heatsinking again and spotted this

    4.8. Black surfaces
    Under natural convection conditions, the performance of a heatsink with a black surface will be 6% to 8% better than that with a plain or bright surface. However, this differential disappears under forced air conditions.

    As anodizing is expensive for a one off .
    so paint seems the next option , anyone know of a good matt black paint for aluminium.

  190. #190
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    Its is raining again in UK

    Raining again so a bit more filing on what is my most time consuming light build ever

    here are a couple more pics as it takes shape .

    I am thinking it is not as nice looking as the mark 2 and 3 but it is more a case of function over form .



    what I am aiming for is a space for the wiring and switches on the light so have carved out a cavity in the top , I could if needed make this large enough for a Bflex to fit in .


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    I too have been doing some research into this matter of colour does it matter well yes it does and this link http://www.molalla.net/~leeper/coatbar.htm proves it once and for all!
    This is using LED's we are all familiar with and I will be painting my modded TurboCat Aluminium fronts black with the paint recommended in this article. In fact on a slow night climb had the Fatman blink once or twice so this should help greatly.
    Keep up the good work and does anyone know if Cutter are delivering the MCE's yet?

  192. #192
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    Troutie, I haven't looked at Formantjim's link but your local hardware should have some spray cans that will do the job. I have had success with matt black spray enamel, just make sure you use an etch primer first.

    If you're worried about heat then you could always look at engine paint from an auto store. Just food for thought incase the specific paint mentioned is too expensive or not readily available.

    As for fitting the bFlex into the light housing, brilliant as long as it doesn't get too hot.

  193. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by formantjim
    I too have been doing some research into this matter of colour does it matter well yes it does and this link http://www.molalla.net/~leeper/coatbar.htm proves it once and for all!
    This is using LED's we are all familiar with and I will be painting my modded TurboCat Aluminium fronts black with the paint recommended in this article. In fact on a slow night climb had the Fatman blink once or twice so this should help greatly.
    Keep up the good work and does anyone know if Cutter are delivering the MCE's yet?
    Thank you very much formantjim that link is brilliant and you have posted it at just the right time when I am thinking how am I going to polish this complex shape .
    the only bit I will polish is the clamp mating surface for better contact with the bars.

    so now no more polishing as a finely scratched surface will be better for the paint to adhere to

    there is no news yet on MCE`s being available yet

    I had an email from Mark (cutters) about 10 days ago and He had not got any samples yet for testing purposes.

  194. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by formantjim
    I too have been doing some research into this matter of colour does it matter well yes it does and this link http://www.molalla.net/~leeper/coatbar.htm proves it once and for all!
    This is using LED's we are all familiar with and I will be painting my modded TurboCat Aluminium fronts black with the paint recommended in this article. In fact on a slow night climb had the Fatman blink once or twice so this should help greatly.
    Keep up the good work and does anyone know if Cutter are delivering the MCE's yet?
    While I agree completely with his findings, static testing isn't super relevant to a bike light in most cases. I think you will find that the effect of radiative cooling (and the importance of the surface emissivity) will wash out once forced convection (airflow over the piece) becomes the dominant method of cooling.

    So a high emissivity coating is good, but IMO it's not that important. If you like the look of a shiny piece of aluminum better then a matte black one I don't think this is a reason to paint it.

    my $0.02

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    oh no! I've reached the end of 8 pages! now i need to play the waiting game as well..

    due to studying industrial design at uni i found this thread fascinating to read through, you guys are awesome! such a collaborative effort, well done!!! i was never that good at design but could definitely appreciate those with the goods (hence im in sales now), keep it up team!

  196. #196
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    Point taken thanks frs1661 , I did like shiny aluminium but it did not fit in with the black bars and stem so formantjims post was the one that tipped the scales and saved me some work .

    also the time when the lights are most at risk of overheating is when stopped so if it gives me a little more time when I forget to dim the lights that has got to be a good thing.

    so black it is




    so come on cree get these dang MCE`s out to Cutters please

  197. #197
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    Bloody hell Troutie, you really don't muck around.

    Nice work!!

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    Hi troutie
    Your output is prodigious.
    I see you have built upwards rather than downwards for the mkIV.
    Was there a reason for this?

  199. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by fre3ud
    Hi troutie
    Your output is prodigious.
    I see you have built upwards rather than downwards for the mkIV.
    Was there a reason for this?
    MMM it is a bit sad really all this work on a bike light , and photographing it to put up on an internet forum , but what the hell I do this when it is raining and biking is unpleasent
    and it rains lots in england .

    The upward build is so I can get the third optic in underneath and also the shape of my bits of metal .
    and a byproduct is a bit of space on top for the switches and easier wiring .

    If the MCE`s had been instantly available then I would have built the mk2 bolted it to the bike and that would have been it done .

    The mk6 is going to be a helmet light hopefully a bit different but again using the MCE

  200. #200
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    Help and advise needed

    Now as I have upped the ante a bit and gone with 3 lights in one
    I now have some problems .
    as I will have 12 emitters @ approx 3.5v -vf each which is my best way to drive them.

    This is how I see it and my options are
    I have 15 volt li ion 2.4mah batteries or
    18 v li ion 3000mah drill batteries to choose from .
    as my original plan was for a double MCE light then I also had 2 bflex drivers set up to work as a master and slave from 1 of my 18 volt batteries .

    but now the plan is for a ridiculous triple mce light so how do I drive it or them to there full potential with the stuff I have available .

    here are my options as I see it .

    1/ drive the 12 emitters at 600ma in 2 paralell strings from 1 maxflex and a 15 v battery.

    2 /drive 2 lots of 6 emitters from 2 maxflex at what ever I want or dare

    3 / carry on with plan 1 and the 2 bflex as master and slave , plus another driver for the third MCE = more expence.

    4 some other option or method , I am open to suggestions

    I was going to use the bottom light as a single led road running light but went power crazy and decided to put a third MCE in there

    so from what you know so far which would be the prefered method of powering this set up.

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