Breaking this forum in to two - DIY forum and manufactured lights- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Breaking this forum in to two - DIY forum and manufactured lights

    Hey All,

    We are thinking of breaking this one single "Lights and Bike Lighting" forum into two separate forums, based on the number of topics for DIY lights.

    The two new forums would be:

    -DIY Lights

    -Manufactured Lights

    What do you guys think?

    Give us your feedback here.

    Thanks,

    -gregg, Mtbr.com Site Manager

  2. #2
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    Don't see any problem with that, but I would prefer "Lights and night riding"with more chat about good places to night ride, groupe rides, wilde life spotted on night rides etc.

  3. #3
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    Sounds good to me Gregg.

    Maybe 'Consumer' lights would be better instead of 'Manufactured' lights though..

    Steve

  4. #4
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    No good Don't Se-greg-ate

    I don't think it's a good idea.

    This forum does get a bit of traffic and most of it's currently DIY. Posts quickly fall off of the page due to the postings on DIY. Of the 100 postings in this forum on the first page, 15 of them were regarding commercial products. If you break it up, I think the commercial light forum traffic will be sparse. You'll also get cross-posting with the same questions.

    Another thing to consider is that many of the DIYer's have used commercial products and know the ins-and-outs of those products and their pros and cons. Asking the difference between an Exposure MaXx D and Lupine Betty5 in this forum will generate a good discussion on their differences, mounting brackets, batteries, cables and switches. Someone will probably chime in that you could use the MaXx D Mount on other lights as it's got a good quick release or something in a similar vein.

    I think if you segment this forum, you'll lose out on the input of a DIYers when someone wants to buy a NiteRider MiNewt or a DiNotte but what they really want is a cheap light for trail riding. If it's broken into consumer lights, they might never see the DIY Dinotte thread or get advice on cheap flashlights. Most people just want to get the most bang for their buck and DIY in the current state is exactly that.

    Since you spend your days maintaining the forums, you could spin them off and if you don't get enough input in one or the other, merge them back into one forum.
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  5. #5
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    I hear what notaknob is saying but at times it's hard to sift out the manufactures products from the DYI so maybe give it a try I know I would like too try a new system only to find content much quicker.

  6. #6
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    Just wondering where trout/scar/deesta who are doing fantastic stuff for diy and off the shelf fit in.
    The off the shelf lights reviewed here provide good contrast to the various diy builds and offers. A lot of us builders have good stuff to add on manufactured lights having progressed through them, but likely wouldn't visit a retail forum.
    Also the "dinotte or diy?" thread would be hard to place.

    +1 on yettis comments, I ride at night because its a very different experience to day riding. Best ride last year was under a full moon, quiet rural road, turned the lights off for half an hour, magic.

  7. #7
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    notanob does have a good point, us DIYers are always being asked how to build battery packs by the people who bought commercial lights to save on repacement costs.

    "How do I upgrde my commercial light to the latest technology" is another. Which forum would these fit into?

  8. #8
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    Couldn't agree more with notaknob.. I came on to this forum looking for info on consumer lights and ended up going the DIY route... and am having a great time doing it.

  9. #9
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    I prefer a single forum. It would avoid cross-posts. One less forum to browse.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by znomit
    Just wondering where trout/scar/deesta who are doing fantastic stuff for diy and off the shelf fit in.
    The off the shelf lights reviewed here provide good contrast to the various diy builds and offers. A lot of us builders have good stuff to add on manufactured lights having progressed through them, but likely wouldn't visit a retail forum.
    Also the "dinotte or diy?" thread would be hard to place.

    +1 on yettis comments, I ride at night because its a very different experience to day riding. Best ride last year was under a full moon, quiet rural road, turned the lights off for half an hour, magic.
    +2 on this. I started to look to buy a light, ended up making one, now will be making another. I would like a forum dedicated to actual riding at night.

  11. #11
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    I like the single forum format. I had no idea or interest in DIY and was just looking for info on commercial lights, but ended up gaining insight on DIY lights. Now DX has become a frequent stop for my shopping and building my own lights and mounts. I may never have gone that route if we had two separate forums.
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  12. #12
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    Some people ask questions like "Where can I find a cheap replacement battery for my Manufactured Light?". There might be confusion about where to post that.


    I prefer having it all in one forum.

  13. #13
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    Most of us DIY'ers know manufactured lights. If you really want feedback on the lights then don't split the forums. Most of the time we give an opinion of the light and don't tell the OP to just build their own.

    I have been worried about all those nice light sponsors on the right side who may not appreciate the lumens and quality of the DIY light builders here.

    So where does the Amoeba fit into this new order?? It is sold same as manufactured lights are.

    Troutie and Deesta are selling lights as well so I guess they belong in the manufactured forum.

    If you are losing sponsors then split it. If no issue with the sponsors then leave it alone.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by odtexas
    Most of the time we give an opinion of the light and don't tell the OP to just build their own.
    It hasn't been the case in at least 2 Lupine conversations and people bash them and post a link to a DIY.

    I OWN MANUFACTURER LIGHT and I DON"T want to DIY. I'm not attracted, I could easilly do it but I don't care.

    Talking for my own experience, I feel That when I want to support many of the good companies who's lights I have owned, I get bashed for people saying DIY is THE way..

    I have stated this many times: people who buy good lights and pay for it, are people than CAN and WANT.
    I want to keep posting my opinions for new buyers that are incline that way and they don't get many answers... nobody is interested about it..

    I'l say split, when I want to know what LED is new and more powerful I will visit the DIY forum

  15. #15
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    I think it should stay one subforum not divided in two.
    We can bomb the world to pieces, but we can't bomb it into peace -Michael Franti

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by BBW
    It hasn't been the case in at least 2 Lupine conversations and people bash them and post a link to a DIY.
    The lupines get bashed because they are the most expensive and people don't appreciate their build quality over the internet.
    DIY gets bashed because you can buy a 900lm P7 torch for 50$(cough cough).
    Torches get bashed because of stupid lumen claims and short runtimes.
    Nobody bashes Dinotte

    Mostly the bashing is good natured and its a fairly friendly forum.

    I use a combo of DIY and retail and have had very good luck with both, there some nice products out there.

  17. #17
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    Wow...is this a loaded topic or what. So far It seems to me that most of the people who want the forum to stay the same are the DIY'ers. I'm not a DIY'er ( at least not yet ) but I am very interested in what they do and are doing with the current technology. I don't want to alienate them because I admire the work they are doing. One of things that has bothered me though about the current forum set-up is that the comments of the commercial systems are getting buried very quickly from the first page because of all the chatter going on with the DIY builds.
    I think having two separate forums might be worth a try on a trial basis. You could always include a "quick jump" link on each "Light forum" for quick access to the other. Regardless of what is decided, I will check both forums out on a regular basis because both subjects interest me. Far be it for me not to find out as soon as possible when the next new LED's are released as the DIY'ers are always up on the lastest. However, as someone has already alluded to, there are people that aren't interested in DIY and shouldn't have to sift through all the DIY chatter to find info on commercial systems that they might be interested in. Anyway, my two cents for what it's worth. Either way, I'm in for the duration..

  18. #18
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    I think it should stay as one single forum but if it had to be split, I would split it between mechanical/machining and electronics. I'm sure this would also brings its own set of detractions.
    When you think that life is though, keep a positive attitude : remember that it is short ;-)

  19. #19
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    Seems to me that there are more folks active on the diy and technical side of things
    than on the commercial manufacturer side ..

    I dont have a problem either way

    I do think it would be a bit of a ghost town on the other side though

    Suck it and see .

  20. #20
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    Change is bad
    Cake is good
    BRING ON THE CAKE!

  21. #21
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    Split it!!

    Always good info from this forum, but I think the split it warrented.

    Rock

  22. #22
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    Products are subject to opinions on all parts of this forum.
    Manufactured lights do drop off quickly. That's because how many people want to post the same, "Yes, thats a good light." The same comparisons are asked over and over again. Almost all the lights can be seen in the light shoot out thread. People here still share their opinions on the lights though.
    The lights forum is one of the less drama filled areas, and yes I spend time on lots of places here.
    Pointing out that a specific product has its lumens over rated is a public service when the OP is asking about that specific product. Should they OP not be told that you are paying twice as much and only getting the same number of lumens as their other choice??

    Just not cool.

    Not so much a matter of CAN and WANT for many of us here. We just don't WANT anyone to get stuck in the CAN by inflated lumen rating and prices.

    No worries.

  23. #23

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    one opinion

    I agree with as lot of what has been said - breaking it up as suggested has pros but two cons are manufactured lighting people may miss out on useful advice if diyers don't post in their section and if non diyers want to keep up to speed with what diyer's are doing they still have just as many highly technical posts to sift through. How about (A) general lights forum or using lights forum and (B) Constructing lights forum : (A) What do you want in a light, how bright is bright enough, which is the right beam angle for this riding style, which is the best led tint, here is an interesting new manufactured light - what are its strenghts and weaknesses? (B) I've finished the body of my light - what do you think, my led's arrived in the post this morning, has anyone tried this as a heatsink, will this driver do, what is your all-time favourite thermal glue? So most of the discussion would stay in the general area with specific diy questions in their own section.

    ed
    hope that was clear enough.
    maybe it wouldn't be practical
    this just reflects how I use the lights forum as someone who has only read, never posted (yet).

  24. #24
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    1 forum

    It would marginalize the manufacturers and prevent some people from learning about the DIY possibilities.

    Where would you put modified bits and pieces?

  25. #25
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    If it's necessary, I would lean toward a DIY vs. Everything Else split. That is to say, the DIY section would include mods/hacks to lights, forks, shocks, electronics, etc. It would be the "Instructables" section or something.

    I think that splitting the forum will create a gulag for consumer lights, with cross-posting to the DIY section ["...before you buy that 200L, check out the DIY Dinotte section on..."]. Or perhaps the opposite will occur. I would also like to see the forum changed to "Lights and Night Riding". Most night riding threads are scattered all across the forum, and it would be nice to have a one-stop-shop, so to speak.

  26. #26
    BBW
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    Quote Originally Posted by odtexas
    Pointing out that a specific product has its lumens over rated is a public service when the OP is asking about that specific product. Should they OP not be told that you are paying twice as much and only getting the same number of lumens as their other choice??

    Just not cool.

    Not so much a matter of CAN and WANT for many of us here. We just don't WANT anyone to get stuck in the CAN by inflated lumen rating and prices.

    No worries.
    you just don't get it... its not about lumens, its about many other things. Second. speak for yourself, you're not the light police and I don't think you're the pope trying to prevent people from spending their money the way the want because YOU think that is not the way THEY should go.
    Some people want a manufactured light. When I buy a bike, craftmanship, color and aesthetic is important, to me and for some is the same for lights. I want a product that look the way I want, perform the way I want, has the service the way I want, etc. not just a tunel of light.
    Couldn't care less about lumens. DIY'ers are the ones caught in the "more is better" when that is not true in my experience. I want quality and just a few DIY come up up with something that really look professionally built and look nice. Carring a coleman propane lamp might work but its not apealing to me
    my 0.2 $ to you

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkUG
    Change is bad
    Cake is good
    BRING ON THE CAKE!
    hehehe...Skug, that's why I ride a Fisher Cake
    As if four times wasn't enough-> Psycho Mike's 2013 Ride to Conquer Cancer Page

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  28. #28
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    No worries BBW. Nothing I said goes to more is better. We just give real assessments of lights as we know them.
    Discussing things with you about Lupine is like trying to argue with a weight weenie. Facts never get in the way of their opinion.
    Roll big expensive lights with over rated lumen values.
    You seem to be the one whose opinion matters and that opinion is Lupine is all you should have if you can afford it.
    If you want everyone to know that you have the extra money to blow on bling then go for it.
    Exclusive club due to cost and not quality. Real cool. Not...........

    PS..
    Not the Pope, but I did give Lupine up for Lent. That is cheating since I don't like them anyway, but I needed something for this weeks confession.

    Pop corn or hot sauce guys.. We need to move this into an area that is actually fun and interesting.

  29. #29
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    Gregg, I'd have to agree as well. I'm one who started in the halogen consumer light market and am now progressing to my first DIY as I wasn't seeing a lot that fit my needs in that market without costing an arm and leg.

    If it is split to consumer/DIY, I can see it almost becoming a "light beginner" and "light expert" split with cross posts and unreplied to messages plaguing the two forums.

    If you were to split it, I think a "lights and night-riding forum" and a "lights DIY forum" would be the way to go....you'd get a little more traffic on the consumer / general night riding side, without getting things washed out with all the DIY info. I would, however, put a link (like the disk brake faq) or sticky link at the top of the general night riding and lights forum to the DIY and vice-versa to make it a little easier to go between the two.
    As if four times wasn't enough-> Psycho Mike's 2013 Ride to Conquer Cancer Page

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  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psycho Mike
    Gregg, I'd have to agree as well. I'm one who started in the halogen consumer light market and am now progressing to my first DIY as I wasn't seeing a lot that fit my needs in that market without costing an arm and leg.

    If it is split to consumer/DIY, I can see it almost becoming a "light beginner" and "light expert" split with cross posts and unreplied to messages plaguing the two forums.

    If you were to split it, I think a "lights and night-riding forum" and a "lights DIY forum" would be the way to go....you'd get a little more traffic on the consumer / general night riding side, without getting things washed out with all the DIY info. I would, however, put a link (like the disk brake faq) or sticky link at the top of the general night riding and lights forum to the DIY and vice-versa to make it a little easier to go between the two.
    I agree with the ( highlighted)...points made. I also agree very much with the points that BBW made in his dialog with odtexas although I wished he'd a been a bit more diplomatic. As I see it two separate forums could be a win-win for everyone if it is done right with a sticky quick link. If two forums are created, I don't think the "General night riding and lights" side would be a ghost town as has been suggested. Right now a lot of activity is about DIY because a lot is going on right now with all the new upgrades in LED's. Conversely, not too much is going on with Commercial systems because manufacturers are slow to adapt to new technology. Still, at different times of the year chatter picks up when new systems are released or when people have questions about the newer technologies. Just because the "General night riding and lights" area might seem quiet at times doesn't mean it isn't justified for it to have it's own topic heading. Now this doesn't mean that if someone is posting up on "General..." and asking about a high priced commercial system that someone can't respond and say, "..With a DIY set-up you could save a boat-load..etc..", and then post a link to DIY. I have no problem with that. Discussions relating to DIY could still go on in the General area as long as no one tries to hijack the thread by posting long build details or photos. If they wanted to do that all they would have to do is post a link to the current build already on the DIY side. I like the idea of being able to look over on the DIY side and finding a known thread quickly without sifting through all the other hoopla. Conversely on the "General" side it would work the same way. I think both sides would benefit from this change so why all the fuss?

  31. #31
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    Keep it one forum.

  32. #32
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    Perhaps some sticky threads for Newbies would ease the congestion somewhat.
    The light shootout should certainly be there.
    Maybe a huge DIY vs retail argument thread too.
    And an upgrade thread.
    And a battery thread.
    etc

  33. #33
    BBW
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    Quote Originally Posted by odtexas
    No worries BBW. Nothing I said goes to more is better. We just give real assessments of lights as we know them.
    Discussing things with you about Lupine is like trying to argue with a weight weenie. Facts never get in the way of their opinion.
    Roll big expensive lights with over rated lumen values.
    You seem to be the one whose opinion matters and that opinion is Lupine is all you should have if you can afford it.
    If you want everyone to know that you have the extra money to blow on bling then go for it.
    Exclusive club due to cost and not quality. Real cool. Not...........

    PS..
    Not the Pope, but I did give Lupine up for Lent. That is cheating since I don't like them anyway, but I needed something for this weeks confession.

    Pop corn or hot sauce guys.. We need to move this into an area that is actually fun and interesting.
    I guess YOU feel attacked(and that is what I don't like, some DIYers think is the only way to go and the rest of US that decide to get a manufactured light are stupid or getting robbed) or just can't speak for yourself. You said "WE give real assessments"... we? are you talking for yourself? based on your standart of what a light should be according to you.

    I defend and support the good brands that I have owened, not only Lupine. I have night ride with flashlights attached to my helmet, crappy commuter blinkies, halogen, HID and LED. Lupine just matters to be the one I own now and the one I like the most. I don't do it for the bling and beleive it or not, I'm a graduate student, I work at 2 different jobs and save to buy my lights.

    "Exclusive club due to cost and not quality. Real cool. Not..........."

    you must be joking, now I'm sure that you have never hold a Lupine in your hand. How can you not like them if you haven't use them?

    I like nice lights and nice pu$$y..... you can get all the ugly ones

  34. #34
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    Just sort of sad.
    Good luck in school. Went many years long time ago. You gain knowledge and perspective with time. You will figure that out eventually. Your lights have their lumens over rated. Deal with it. That was the original fact that touched all this off.
    I have built and handed out over 20 of my lights to the River Legacy Crew here in Dallas. So instead of spending a grand on one light, I spent a grand on parts and gave lights to all my friends. Better for everyone to ride with equal lights instead of blinding all your friends and making them feel inferior.

    Working 2 jobs and going to grad school?
    And then spending a grand on lights is what you think is important.
    Just sad.
    Try helping others some time. Until then, done with you.
    Have a good life.

  35. #35
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    I cast my vote for keeping it together. I fear that the manufactured lights forum might lose the participation of some of the DIYers, who still know a good deal about commercially available products.

    The one suggestion I did like is "Lights and Night Riding" to stimulate discussion about actually riding at night, rather than just debating the accuracy of light output claims. Not really a necessary change though.
    When under pressure, your level of performance will sink to your level of preparation.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by odtexas
    Just sort of sad.
    Good luck in school. Went many years long time ago. You gain knowledge and perspective with time. You will figure that out eventually.
    hahaha you are funny... so you think you're older, wiser and better for some reason

    Quote Originally Posted by odtexas
    Your lights have their lumens over rated. Deal with it. That was the original fact that touched all this off.
    As stated by me and others... lumens are not the only thing, I don't care about them. IF I would like lumens I would run something else

    Quote Originally Posted by odtexas
    I have built and handed out over 20 of my lights to the River Legacy Crew here in Dallas. So instead of spending a grand on one light, I spent a grand on parts and gave lights to all my friends.
    Santa Claus does exist!!!!
    I help many people in many situations, you don't know me


    Quote Originally Posted by odtexas
    Better for everyone to ride with equal lights instead of blinding all your friends and making them feel inferior. .
    Ahhhhh here is the problem.... do you feel inferior? my friends don't feel inferior because I have bright lights, just like I don't feel inferior if somebody else have a better car/bike whatever... (and you are the one with perspective )

    Done here santa

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do
    If two forums are created, I don't think the "General night riding and lights" side would be a ghost town as has been suggested. Right now a lot of activity is about DIY because a lot is going on right now with all the new upgrades in LED's. Conversely, not too much is going on with Commercial systems because manufacturers are slow to adapt to new technology. Still, at different times of the year chatter picks up when new systems are released or when people have questions about the newer technologies.
    True...which is why I suggested it be general and commercial product. In between new product launches, a lot of it is "what light is best for me?" in the commercial side. If you have the general night riding in with it, there will likely be a better balance between the two. The DIY crowd banters a lot as techniques and parts change...and I don't think that will change.

    So *IF* the forum is split, that's the way I think it needs to go.
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  38. #38
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    Come on people...give it a rest. Lupine makes great lights if you want to pay for ze German engineering, DIY is fun and cost effective. There's nothing wrong with either of those perspectives.

    FWIW I like the idea of having a "Night Riding" forum and a separate "DIY" or "Electronics" forum for all kinds of bike projects including lights. Keep the super techy stuff flowing in the "DIY" without clogging up the "Night Riding" section.

  39. #39
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    Keep it as it is. I visit here because the forum gets more traffic than the equivalent one at BF. If you split it, neither split will be as useful as the single site currently is.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do
    I agree with the ( highlighted)...points made. I also agree very much with the points that BBW made in his dialog with odtexas although I wished he'd a been a bit more diplomatic. As I see it two separate forums could be a win-win for everyone if it is done right with a sticky quick link. If two forums are created, I don't think the "General night riding and lights" side would be a ghost town as has been suggested. Right now a lot of activity is about DIY because a lot is going on right now with all the new upgrades in LED's. Conversely, not too much is going on with Commercial systems because manufacturers are slow to adapt to new technology. Still, at different times of the year chatter picks up when new systems are released or when people have questions about the newer technologies. Just because the "General night riding and lights" area might seem quiet at times doesn't mean it isn't justified for it to have it's own topic heading. Now this doesn't mean that if someone is posting up on "General..." and asking about a high priced commercial system that someone can't respond and say, "..With a DIY set-up you could save a boat-load..etc..", and then post a link to DIY. I have no problem with that. Discussions relating to DIY could still go on in the General area as long as no one tries to hijack the thread by posting long build details or photos. If they wanted to do that all they would have to do is post a link to the current build already on the DIY side. I like the idea of being able to look over on the DIY side and finding a known thread quickly without sifting through all the other hoopla. Conversely on the "General" side it would work the same way. I think both sides would benefit from this change so why all the fuss?
    I agree about the split as "general night riding and lights" and "DIY lights." I'm not interested in DIY.

    J.

  41. #41
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    MMM I like the idea of a lights and nightriding forum could be a fun place
    to visit and dream of nice dry trails .and hear the exploits of all the folk using there lights .


    and the Diy section would just carry on as it does , strange that CPF was the place to go for all things bike light but that seems to have dried up a little over the last couple of years

    and to be fair how long before Diy dries up as how many methods of sticking leds /optics/drivers in to bits of metal can there be left to do .

  42. #42
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    I vote for keeping it one forum. Unless you can have it setup so that there is a sub forum for commercial lights, but those threads will still appear in the main Bike Lights/Night Riding forum; that might work.


    Quote Originally Posted by BBW
    you just don't get it... its not about lumens, its about many other things. Second. speak for yourself, you're not the light police and I don't think you're the pope trying to prevent people from spending their money the way the want because YOU think that is not the way THEY should go.
    Some people want a manufactured light. When I buy a bike, craftmanship, color and aesthetic is important, to me and for some is the same for lights. I want a product that look the way I want, perform the way I want, has the service the way I want, etc. not just a tunel of light.
    Couldn't care less about lumens. DIY'ers are the ones caught in the "more is better" when that is not true in my experience. I want quality and just a few DIY come up up with something that really look professionally built and look nice. Carring a coleman propane lamp might work but its not apealing to me
    my 0.2 $ to you
    First of all, this forum would be much more enjoyable if we could avoid the confrontational attitude. I'm sure this will come across as pointing fingers, but it isn't meant that way; I just know that things can easily be misunderstood (and taken too seriously) on the internet.

    I think most DIYers would be the first to agree that yes, it is about many other things than lumens. In fact "I want a product that look the way I want, perform the way I want, has the service the way I want, etc." is the exact thinking that leads many people to try DIY in the first place. The idea is that you can make a light to your tastes, with your tweaks. If commercial lights give you what you want and you can afford them, go for it! I know a lot of people who don't have the time or inclination to make their own lights and there is nothing wrong their. However, if I suggest the DIY route to them, being personally very excited by that kind of thing, they also don't get offended. DIYers aren't trying to control your life or spending habits, they (for the most part at least) are just really happy with the DIY approach and are just trying to be helpful as best as they know how.

    For what it is worth, I have been drooling over the Lupine's for years. This hasn't stopped since I've gotten interested in the DIY side of things. For me, Lupine's are the benchmark that I am working towards; they are sort of the "golden standard" in a sense. As a geek, the idea of having something even brighter than the already awesome Lupine Betty makes me a bit giddy, it doesn't mean I don't like the Betty anymore though! I also am well aware of the fact that I normally won't use something brighter than the Betty anyways, but it's always fun to have that option.

    Again, this is a really long post, but I think the "community" on this forum is actually a really positive one, with many great contributors, and there is no real need for it to be divided. Just cut the geeks some slack when they get a bit over-excited, please!

  43. #43
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    Okay, it looks like we're gonna go ahead and split up the forums and see how it goes.

    Thanks for all the good feedback and ideas.

    We'll call 'em: Lights and Night-Riding" and a "Lights DIY"

    -g

  44. #44
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    The new non-DIY lights forum is here:

    http://forums.mtbr.com/forumdisplay.php?f=165

    -g

  45. #45
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    Gregg, I think that you nead to move those manufactured light commercial over to the other forum and give us some nice commercials for solder and stuff

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