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  1. #1
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    battery building please

    Hello all

    mtbr virgin here, been reading some fantastic stuff on these forums on how to build lights and am just about ready to build as i feel i've gathered enough info (and if i get stuck i can always ask troutie) but what about building batteries? how about starting a thread on this over looked area. As getting good batteries here in the uk is a difficult and often expensive buisness.

  2. #2
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    Lithium ion batteries are a little challenging to build with. Safest to purchase packs premade.
    Option 2 is buying single cell protected 18650's and one of Turboferrets battery holders.
    This gets discussed here on a regular basis and I think I this is the general conclussion.

  3. #3
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    Good advice, i have tried making up packs, doing it right with a protection circuit but in the end i have ended up using a turboferret holder. Gives me about 600 lumens for 4 hours cant complain.

    Would be nice to have guide with links to the appropriate parts/chargers required though.

  4. #4
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    Here`s yr 18650 charger .....
    http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.1251
    2 independant slots, fab!

    18650 battery`s ...
    http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.6979
    ...Scun.thorpe, UK

  5. #5
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    That link provided by HENDO are unprotected cells.

    DX also sell protected cells, probably a better bet overall. Not much more expensive either.

    Cloggy

  6. #6
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    Another option is to contact smudge who posts in this forum: [email protected]

    He is located in the UK and makes packs. I have only heard good things about them but I haven't bought any myself.

  7. #7
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    I fancy having another try, just need to know what to use really.

    Im fine for protected batteries and chargers as i have quite a few TF 2500 protected and a basic but good charger.(DX 6105)

    The batteries provided in hendo's link would be good as the battery content, to use with a PCB from say battery junction.

  8. #8
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    Problem with building pack is soldering. I haven't seen 18650 cells with soldering pads on DX. Be careful with soldier iron to not overheat the cells. Do not solder full charged cells. Instead of soldiering if you can use spot welding like:
    http://www.hobbyspotwelders.com/HSBATTERYPEN.php

  9. #9
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    I think batteryspace.com or all-battery.com might sell Li ion 18650 batts. with "soldering tabs" attached.

    As Frozen just mentioned, I've read that spot welding is the correct way to link them up. Soldering might overheat the cell, unleashing all the scary horrors we've all been warned about But if one of those sites has tabbed batteries, they probably have a how-to page also.

    JZ
    It's not about speed, it's about lack of control.

  10. #10
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    Hey,

    is ist safe to solder 5 protected 18650 cells in 5s together?

    or will this kill the protection circuit in the cells?

    another thought: in 5s connection - during charging - if one cell hits its maximum v the protection will stop the charging of this cell - what about the other 4 cells in the pack?

    will the other 4cells charge further or ist the charging process for the whole pack cancelled if one PCB shuts of?

  11. #11
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    Thats right as far as i know, protected cells need to be charged seperately, your better off getting unportected cells and a PCB, but then theres still the solder vs spotweld issue.

    PCB such as this one would work but would need to be 18.5v (5 cell) for you.

    http://www.batteryjunction.com/li-pcb-14v4--.html

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whitedog1
    Hey,

    is ist safe to solder 5 protected 18650 cells in 5s together?

    or will this kill the protection circuit in the cells?

    another thought: in 5s connection - during charging - if one cell hits its maximum v the protection will stop the charging of this cell - what about the other 4 cells in the pack?

    will the other 4cells charge further or ist the charging process for the whole pack cancelled if one PCB shuts of?
    Whitedog, the PCB's that come on protected 18650's are only meant to protect that one cell so I had the same thoughts as you.....when each cell is charged it will cut the charging but keep charging the remaining four.

    The problem is that each PCB can only handle the 4.2v from a charger designed to charge a single cell.

    The 21v from a charger that would be required to charge 5 cells will simply destroy the PCB's.

    I buy protected cells then VERY CAREFULLY remove the PCB and this will leave a cell with solder tabs.

    You can then either fit an 18v PCB or do as I will and forget the PCB and just fit a balance plug and charge with a balance charger and I will use my bFlex to stop over discharge.

    This pic shoud give you the idea but you will have to re-heat shrink the cell.
    Last edited by yetibetty; 03-23-2009 at 10:23 AM.

  13. #13
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    Thanks for the answers!

    yetibetti:

    ahhhh great idea with the balancer plug!
    just need to get a charger with that plug too
    anyway I need one for my no lipo rc-boat batteries.......

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by moggy82
    Thats right as far as i know, protected cells need to be charged seperately, your better off getting unportected cells and a PCB, but then theres still the solder vs spotweld issue.

    PCB such as this one would work but would need to be 18.5v (5 cell) for you.

    http://www.batteryjunction.com/li-pcb-14v4--.html

    Building on this battery question, I'm very interested in the use of unprotected 18650's. I've got twelve of them here and would like to use them for extended cycle time over NiMh bats. I looked at the PCB and really need some coaching on how it is wired to the pack. I'll be setting them up in a boosted format so I'd keep them in 3.7 volt 2, 3, or 4 parallel.

    Could you help with this or direct me to a good tutorial? thx,
    Gravity is my friend... SOMETIMES!!

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    ...Scun.thorpe, UK

  16. #16
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    So Hendo,
    If I'm understanding correctly, the charger is a dual channel and will protect from over charging and the driver that I use will protect from over discharge? And Turbo's battery holders go without saying, make life easy!!

    Light battery pack
    Long burn time
    LIFE IS GOOD!!
    Gravity is my friend... SOMETIMES!!

  17. #17

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    The nature of lithium ion battery charging protects them from being overcharged - at the end of the charge cycle, the charger maintains the battery at a constant voltage, without sourcing any current to the battery when it is fully charged. Not all drivers protect against overdischarge, though I think that some of the *Flex drivers do, or at least have low battery indicators.

  18. #18
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    *Flex drivers have programmable middle and low battery discharge warning and optional cut off - after cut off you can light one minute to another cut off. I have realized that each cell in pack have different capacity. When they reach 3,4V or so, voltage in some go down very fast while in some remain steady. So you can drain one below of allowed range, while the voltage of pack shows allowed voltage and *flex will not cut of because the voltage of pack is 6V (2 cell LiPo pack in this example), while the voltage of worst cell is under 2,6V, what is no good . I recommend that cut off voltage of pack would be above declared mininum voltage to protect from over discharge.

  19. #19
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    turboferret holder is very expensive jut for a bit of plastic... insane

  20. #20
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    pfff instead of complaining you should then make your own that are preferable better and at least cheaper...

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by super-fast
    pfff instead of complaining you should then make your own that are preferable better and at least cheaper...
    I will.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by sergio_pt
    turboferret holder is very expensive jut for a bit of plastic... insane
    Maybe...but it's the only 18650 holder out there.

    JZ
    It's not about speed, it's about lack of control.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by super-fast
    pfff instead of complaining you should then make your own that are preferable better and at least cheaper...
    My own battery case 4*18650

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Itess
    nice job mate

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by sergio_pt
    turboferret holder is very expensive jut for a bit of plastic... insane
    For something that's handmade, good quality and really easily modified for different battery configurations, turboferret's holders are a great deal. We're not talking about a product that's made in sufficient numbers for economies of scale, or Chinese production lines, to kick in.

    Sure, you might be able whip up something out of $4 and think that's cheaper, as long as you place no value whatsoever on your own time . If you can make it good enough and cheap enough, then go ahead and start selling them on MTBR.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by womble
    Sure, you might be able whip up something out of $4 and think that's cheaper, as long as you place no value whatsoever on your own time
    Isn't this a DIY forum?

  27. #27
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    You can do it like this too. It's all good.....just a question of money vs. time. I've always tended to go the DIY route, but lately I've been coming up short on both money and time, so it's hard to get anything done at all

    JZ
    It's not about speed, it's about lack of control.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimZinVT
    just a question of money vs. time. I've always tended to go the DIY route, but lately I've been coming up short on both money and time, so it's hard to get anything done at all

    JZ
    Money, time... What are you doing on sunday?

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Itess
    Money, time... What are you doing on sunday?
    Today? I put 4 hours in working at the ski shop, and now I'm mopping up a fuel oil leak in the basement.

    JZ
    It's not about speed, it's about lack of control.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Itess
    Isn't this a DIY forum?
    Sure it is... and I've also built my own 18650 holders

    I just thought that Sergio was being a bit unreasonable in his expectations of a custom holder made by a UK-based professional in his spare time, vs a flimsy bit of plastic pumped out of a miniumum-wage factory in Shenzhen.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Itess
    Isn't this a DIY forum?
    Yes, but what kind of drivers is almost anyone using here? Complete drivers so you only have to solder some wires. True DIY would be to design and build your own drivers...

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by super-fast
    True DIY would be to design and build your own drivers...

    You should also make your own batteries. I think lemons are pretty good. You must grow them yourself too.
    You can direct drive a P7 off 4 lemons, imagine what could be done with a whole tree full.

    https://www.hilaroad.com/camp/projec...n_battery.html

    ps, I think Turboferret has done a fantastic job on the holders, If I used batteries I'd be sourcing holders from him.

  33. #33
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    Good to see some support for the turboferret holder

    In response to the comments about the price, perhaps I could say something about them being 'just a bit of plastic'

    From the start, these have been computer designed, then patterns rapid prototyped (on a machine costing around 20k) then moulds made using silicon (expensive, messy and slow to cure). Each part is then individually poured using 2 part polyurethane resin, then parting lines and risers trimmed off.

    In a quad holder, there is about 1 of resin, and 1 of battery clips, plus some wire and solder.

    Sure, I could sell them for 3 each, and only just cover my materials costs, but then it certainly wouldn't be worth my while. It took a lot of orders to recover all of my prototyping and set-up costs (several hundred 's), so at 3 a holder, I'd still be running at a loss even after selling about 200 holders!

    I set my prices at what I thought was a reasonable amount for what my time was worth, and what I'd need to sacrifice to meet the demand.

    I'm all for innovation and DIY, hence why I started this little project, and I'd be delighted to see other people doing the same

    Cheers, Rich

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by znomit

    You should also make your own batteries. I think lemons are pretty good. You must grow them yourself too.
    You can direct drive a P7 off 4 lemons, imagine what could be done with a whole tree full.

    ps, I think Turboferret has done a fantastic job on the holders, If I used batteries I'd be sourcing holders from him.
    We'd then need another forum split for organic vs artificial DIY lighting systems. And people would start arguing about lemons vs limes

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by znomit

    You should also make your own batteries. I think lemons are pretty good. You must grow them yourself too.
    You can direct drive a P7 off 4 lemons, imagine what could be done with a whole tree full.

    https://www.hilaroad.com/camp/projec...n_battery.html
    Classic - BTW, what bar-mounts would you recommend for 4 lemons?
    When I die, I want to go like my Grandad, peacefully, in my sleep - not like his passengers - shouting and screaming!

  36. #36
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    I think the proper mount would be a wicker basket :-)

    But I prefer potatoes:
    Attached Images Attached Images
    It's not about speed, it's about lack of control.

  37. #37
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    But I prefer potatoes:
    me too,...... when they have become depleted you can eat them
    Potato recipes for Dummies
    ...Scun.thorpe, UK

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBigYin
    Classic - BTW, what bar-mounts would you recommend for 4 lemons?
    Until the ferret lemonizer is released.... Jim is correct.
    A wicker basket with one of these in it.


    Also useful for post ride gins.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimZinVT
    But I prefer potatoes:
    Lemons are better for overvolting and don't blight in the cold.
    Everyone knows that.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by turboferret
    Good to see some support for the turboferret holder
    ...
    I'm all for innovation and DIY, hence why I started this little project, and I'd be delighted to see other people doing the same
    Cheers, Rich
    Now, after doing eventually the case for my own holder, I am thinking that main challenge is not the holder itself, but that case for it I used 50 mm plastic pipes and couplings, and I was not able to do it hermetically and looking like from a factory. I am a little bit upset about that.

    I am wondering: it looks like i am the only one (one of the minority) who has such a problem. Is there a known solution?

  41. #41
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    I make my own 18650 Li-On protected cell packs.

    I don't use battery holders, I preferred soldered connections. It's way more secure when banging around off road. Plus all the cells charge and discharge at the same rate and stay together as one. (cells should all be new when the pack is assembled).

    It's easy to solder together the 2400mah 18650 protected Li-Ons that DX sells.
    I add SAE connectors to my lights and packs and use 1.5" heat shrink to wrap the battery packs.

    I have a bunch of info on the battery packs and cool DX charger mod.
    https://www.el34world.com/Misc/bike/BikesLights1.htm


  42. #42
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    Hi Em,
    before you even venture into building youre own battery packs please email me with what you are looking at and I'm sure I can help you out. I'm also in the UK so i'm only an email or phonecall away.

  43. #43
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    Cheers mate will do, just a bit financially challenged at the moment (not a lot going on work wise in cumbria) will contact you when funds are in place

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by El34
    It's easy to solder together the 2400mah 18650 protected Li-Ons that DX sells.
    Nice pack, but I have to disagree with soldering these cells. Easy is relative, but soldering Li-ions is not something I would mess with. It can be difficult to get solder to stick to some terminals depending on the material they are made of, which would lead some to apply too much heat. One also has to be careful not to loose a bead of solder somewhere it could short the battery.

    I believe that when packs are built, they are normally spot welded to keep from overheating the cells and possibly damaging the innards.

  45. #45
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    Yes, soldering is definately an aquired skill. I have been soldering for 40 years or more.
    The secret is at least a 40 watt iron, and to wire brush or scuff up the surfaces.

    The small 25 watt pencil irons won't get the job done, large surfaces will heat sink all the heat away from the tip.

    You do not need to keep the iron on the battery terminal very long if your iron is hot enough.

    It's a touch and go technique.
    It also helps if you pre tin the surfaces lightly.

  46. #46
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    If you want cheap 18650's with solder tabs you can remove the PCB from the DX cells.
    You are then left with easy to solder cells with nice solder tabs.

    You will have to re-heatsrink the cell and obviousley you'll end up with an unprotected pack and will have to use a driver with low voltage cutoff or some other way to stop over discharge.

    I fit a balance lead for charging and use a RC balance charger and have made a few 5 cell18.5v packs this way.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  47. #47
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    Hey, pretty cool.
    I have never unwrapped and looked inside one of the Dx 18650 protected cells.

    good info

  48. #48
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    yettibetty that is an awsome tip! One of the best I have seen on here ever. I would have home brewed my last pack had i known that little bit.

  49. #49
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    I use big heat shrink too, but I noticed on your pack above that the ends looked to be sealed by heat shrink also.
    I have been making plastic end caps and then heat shrinking the whole pack with the caps in place.

    What type of heat shrink do you use???

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by El34
    I use big heat shrink too, but I noticed on your pack above that the ends looked to be sealed by heat shrink also.
    I have been making plastic end caps and then heat shrinking the whole pack with the caps in place.

    What type of heat shrink do you use???
    The heatsrink that I use is the same stuff that is on the battery space packs,and I get it from http://www.cellpacksolutions.com/shr...eve_matrix.asp. The PVC stuff is great as it doesn't require a lot of heat and is very strong.

    You just have to cover the pack in both directions, length ways first to cover the ends and then one around the circumference.
    Last edited by yetibetty; 05-08-2009 at 07:27 AM.

  51. #51
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    Ah, ok, I was wondering how you did that.

    Thanks for the tip

  52. #52
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    Hey yeti any chance of getting you to post wiring instructions or a link to a schematic or something. I have decided your approach to building battery packs with DX cells and a balance connector is a real winner in terms of cost and performance. I am going to be using jst-xh connectors and will be doing 4cell packs. Planning on picking up this charger:

    http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/s...idProduct=2055

    Jst cable for balance charging will come from the same place. I am assuing any cable that includes a 4s jst-xh male will work for this.

    So far this is all I can seem to find in the way of help with wiring.

    http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=468261

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikerjay
    Hey yeti any chance of getting you to post wiring instructions or a link to a schematic or something. I have decided your approach to building battery packs with DX cells and a balance connector is a real winner in terms of cost and performance. I am going to be using jst-xh connectors and will be doing 4cell packs. Planning on picking up this charger:
    +1 - I had a few issues with holders during a 24 on the weekend and think soldered packs are the only way to go

  54. #54
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    Hey cool this thread now rounds out how to build a really nice battery system.

    http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=536935

  55. #55
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    I also feel that a soldered pack is the the way to go. A small bit of corrosion is all it takes to mess up a spring-loaded pack. My advice is to buy batterys with tabs or make up a spot welder and spot weld the connections to the batteries (you can also buy the nickel strip). Soldering directly to cells is chancy. The insulator in the cells are made of nylon or some other low melting temperature material. I have messed up a few cells soldering directly to them. YMMV

  56. #56
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    I also prefer soldered packs. I have been soldering together Ni-Mh Sanyo 4/3 Fau's many years without a problem.

    The Chinese 18650's have been another issue. I had one go nuke on me recently during a solder job.

    I was stripping the batteries down to the bare case and soldering the spot welded tabs together.
    Problem with some of the cheap chinese 18650's I have tore down is that someone has done a horrible job of spot welding the tabs. Some of them are barely stuck down to the battery case.

    I am still soldering my 18650 packs, but I make sure the metal I solder to is sanded rough and clean and then I solder with a 40+ watt iron very quickly so as to keep the heat level way down.

    I have been dipping my soldered battery packs in Plasti-Dip.
    They look really cool and are sealed water tight.
    have to see how that technique works out over the lang haul.

    I never expect any of these cheap chinese parts to last more than a year or so anyway.
    My Sanyo packs lasted for many years.

  57. #57
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    I like to dip the small batteries (4 cells) or less in the Plastic Dip. It takes a couple of dips to get a nice thick, waterproof coat on the battery. The bigger ones I use clear vinyl tape first, then big PVC shrink tubing.

  58. #58
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    yeah, it's taking me 3 dips (4 hours dry time between dips) or about 12 hours to get a final coat I am happy with.

    It sure is nice once it all firms up and dries properly

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