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  1. #1
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    knolly WARDEN

    looks like a knolly has sprouted some 650b legs. similar specs. to the chilcotin. via their facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Knolly-Bikes/38803056687

    [knolly WARDEN-1185042_10151542609861688_1512619598_n.jpg

    knolly WARDEN-1238987_10151542608736688_367016072_n.jpg

    knolly WARDEN-1240476_10151542605316688_1497132566_n.jpg
    Last edited by RyeBokeh; 08-28-2013 at 08:14 PM.

  2. #2
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    Yessssss

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    Nice! Seat angle?

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    travel? 150mm?
    looks nice, but as we like the chili, this shouldn't be surprising.

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    A geo chart would be really cool

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    Knolly warden

    Hmm... Snappy dune buggy like Endo or sure footed Rock Crawler like Chili?

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    The asylum has a new boss! Looking great, congrats Knolly. Any additional details on the geo? Shock size?

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    I really love those numbers... niiiiice bike...

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    First Look: Knolly Warden - Eurobike 2013 - Pinkbike

    Pinkbike just posted this up!

    It looks nice, although I'd never buy a 650b frame.

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    Where are the geo charts? I sure hope for a rather steep seat angle...

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    Let the "I ordered mine back in September and havent received it yet" threads begin!

  13. #13
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    Looks good. Looks like the perfect one bike solution.
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    Bonzoo... I'm guessing that based on Noels design evolution since the Delirium T (super slacked out STA) to the new chili, the STA will be similar to Endo and Chili, which is to say, very ridable even with a ton of Seatpost out...

  15. #15
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    Titatinium pivot hardware!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  16. #16
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    What are the frame weights of the Chili and Endo with a CTD shock? (Not sure the frame size for which the 6.75 lbs is quoted in the pic.)



    BTW, this is an engineering question as well as a weight weenie question (i.e. "don't worry about it" answers won't help).
    "sounds like you need to find a better mechanic..." -- Calhoun

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    I'm curious what the leverage curve does, wondering if it falls right in between the Endo and Chili? Not quite as snappy and efficient as the Endo, but more pedal friendly than the Chili...

    Great looking rig. I'm sure the wait list has already begun.
    If jackasses could fly this place would be an airport.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thefriar View Post
    Bonzoo... I'm guessing that based on Noels design evolution since the Delirium T (super slacked out STA) to the new chili, the STA will be similar to Endo and Chili, which is to say, very ridable even with a ton of Seatpost out...
    Ok... I will be at the Tri-Cycle booth on Saturday and ask them about the geometry.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by rscecil007 View Post
    I'm curious what the leverage curve does, wondering if it falls right in between the Endo and Chili? Not quite as snappy and efficient as the Endo, but more pedal friendly than the Chili...

    Great looking rig. I'm sure the wait list has already begun.
    My GUESS: it will fall more towards the Endo's leverage curve as the larger contact patch and the "roll over junk easier" ability of a larger tire would help bring those Chili characteristics to an Endo leverage curve. (At least that's what I'm hoping. I want it all in one bike!)
    "sounds like you need to find a better mechanic..." -- Calhoun

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    I would really love that bike, I would be considering a 650b bike as my next one, and I don't expect to change my bike anytime soon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TSC View Post
    My GUESS: it will fall more towards the Endo's leverage curve as the larger contact patch and the "roll over junk easier" ability of a larger tire would help bring those Chili characteristics to an Endo leverage curve. (At least that's what I'm hoping. I want it all in one bike!)
    That would be my guess as well. The tubing is Endo based with a beefier downtube. I would think since it is geared towards Enduro, it would be based more on the Endo.
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    I agree with both of you as well. They might as well have called this thing the "quiver killer," b/c that sure as hell is what it's sounding like.

    6.75 lbs with a Fox CTD, that's most likely a medium. Anyone know what a medium Endo weighs with the same shock, for comparison?
    If jackasses could fly this place would be an airport.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rscecil007 View Post
    I agree with both of you as well. They might as well have called this thing the "quiver killer," b/c that sure as hell is what it's sounding like.

    6.75 lbs with a Fox CTD, that's most likely a medium. Anyone know what a medium Endo weighs with the same shock, for comparison?
    I see it as a great one bike solution, but 2 26ers are always better than one 650B.
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    so fox is only offering a 15mm thru axle 34mm stantion fork? i still dont like that compared to 20mm axle and 36mm stantions on 26" bikes. i dont see hw it will replace an endo and a chilcotin with one bike. it will be a compromise just like building a light chili ir heavy endo

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    Quote Originally Posted by thefriar View Post
    Titatinium pivot hardware!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Chilcotin and endorphin too? let me know!

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    Quote Originally Posted by graypaw View Post
    Chilcotin and endorphin too? let me know!
    The new Podium has always had that ti hardware, but would be interesting if the other two started coming with it.
    If jackasses could fly this place would be an airport.

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    The basic geo is on the right side of the info sheet. What other geo specs are you looking for?

    knolly WARDEN-presentation1.jpg
    If jackasses could fly this place would be an airport.

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    The FB photo says winter 2013, while the PB story says winter 2014.

  29. #29
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    Very nice. 150mm travel 650B Knolly 4x4 -
    Safe riding,

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  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by qbert2000 View Post
    so fox is only offering a 15mm thru axle 34mm stantion fork? i still dont like that compared to 20mm axle and 36mm stantions on 26" bikes. i dont see hw it will replace an endo and a chilcotin with one bike. it will be a compromise just like building a light chili ir heavy endo
    I can def say, while I used to think the axle size would make a big difference, it really doesn't. It's more the stanchions and overall build than the axle.

    Cheezwhip let me borrow his 32mm stanchion'd Revelation with 20mm axle to use on my Endo for a bit while I waited on my Pike to come in. And the Pike is much stiffer and just overal more robust feeling than the Rev was.
    If jackasses could fly this place would be an airport.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blatant View Post
    The FB photo says winter 2013, while the PB story says winter 2014.
    December 2013/January 2014.
    If jackasses could fly this place would be an airport.

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    As the proud owner of brand new Chilcotin, and the fact that I've never tried a 650b, my enthusiasm is somewhat muted, but I'm excited to see Knolly continue to grow his offerings, and hope this new frame appeals to all the 650b riders out there. I'd be stoked on it if I counted myself among the big wheel boys.

    I'd like to try one someday...
    '04 Knolly VTach | '15 Knolly Podium | '16 Knolly Delirium | Knolly Warden

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    Nice job guys! It would be great to hear more about how the bike is tuned. Does it retain the stand up and crank attitude of the Endorphin?

    Another headset standard? (in the lineup) Doh!
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    Quote Originally Posted by bubba13 View Post

    Another headset standard? Doh!
    56mm headsets have been around for a few years. I prefer it to the 49mm standard as I like insets. I wish the Chili was 56mm, then I could run a 170 tapered inset and maintain the stock geometry. I'm sure it will be coming on newer frames.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rscecil007 View Post
    I can def say, while I used to think the axle size would make a big difference, it really doesn't. It's more the stanchions and overall build than the axle.

    Cheezwhip let me borrow his 32mm stanchion'd Revelation with 20mm axle to use on my Endo for a bit while I waited on my Pike to come in. And the Pike is much stiffer and just overal more robust feeling than the Rev was.
    i still prefer 35m or 36m to 34mm stantions regardless of axle whether 15mm or 20mm. 15mm was fox and shimano's solution to a problem that never existed. the 20mm maxle was the answer after regular qr went the way of the dod. 15mm has no advantages over 20mm that i can see. just another money making standard that und=fortunately all have now adopted. just like 650b imho.

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    Quote Originally Posted by qbert2000 View Post
    15mm has no advantages over 20mm that i can see. just another money making standard that und=fortunately all have now adopted. just like 650b imho.
    Dude please.....15mm is like 6grams lighter.
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  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiSS'er View Post
    56mm headsets have been around for a few years. I prefer it to the 49mm standard as I like insets. I wish the Chili was 56mm, then I could run a 170 tapered inset and maintain the stock geometry. I'm sure it will be coming on newer frames.
    Explain to me please about the 44/56mm.

    --Will the 44mm headtube top allow a 1.5" straight steerer tube (I'm guessing no)?

    --Since the 56mm headtube bottom is larger than the current 49mm I assume it will accommodate ZS bottom, correct?

    --Is the wider bottom necessary to accommodate angle-set headsets because the smaller diameter headtube top?
    "sounds like you need to find a better mechanic..." -- Calhoun

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    Quote Originally Posted by TSC View Post
    Explain to me please about the 44/56mm.

    --Will the 44mm headtube top allow a 1.5" straight steerer tube (I'm guessing no)?

    --Since the 56mm headtube bottom is larger than the current 49mm I assume it will accommodate ZS bottom, correct?

    --Is the wider bottom necessary to accommodate angle-set headsets because the smaller diameter headtube top?
    44 mm wont' fit a 1.5"

    correct, it's so you can run a tapered fork with a zerostack hs

    no idea about the angle set thing
    If jackasses could fly this place would be an airport.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tiSS'er View Post
    Dude....
    "What's mine say?"
    If jackasses could fly this place would be an airport.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tiSS'er View Post
    Dude please.....15mm is like 6grams lighter.
    ..only if it the hub is yellow, if it's white it's 16 grams heavier... of course, red is 5% faster, regardless of weight..

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    Quote Originally Posted by qbert2000 View Post
    just another money making standard that und=fortunately all have now adopted. just like 650b imho.
    I'm curious about 650b, but idea of it being forced down our throats through planned obsolescence of 26 I am not cool about.

    I'm starting to get worried about 26 being pushed out by 650b. Almost like quality improvements and durability increases in 26'' have created a need for an artificial upgrade mandate to 650b, and they'll shut the supply of 26'' to force the shift.

    Endo is most funnest bike in the history of full squish in my fleet over the years, and the more I ride it, the less I want another wheelsize (even after 3 years on Sultans).

    At the end of the day, I haven't ridden a knolly I didn't like and enjoy, so if Noel is leading, I'm fine to follow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rscecil007 View Post
    The basic geo is on the right side of the info sheet. What other geo specs are you looking for?

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Seat angle, wheel base, reach & stack, length of seat tube

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by thefriar View Post
    I'm curious about 650b, but idea of it being forced down our throats through planned obsolescence of 26 I am not cool about.

    I'm starting to get worried about 26 being pushed out by 650b. Almost like quality improvements and durability increases in 26'' have created a need for an artificial upgrade mandate to 650b, and they'll shut the supply of 26'' to force the shift.

    Endo is most funnest bike in the history of full squish in my fleet over the years, and the more I ride it, the less I want another wheelsize (even after 3 years on Sultans).

    At the end of the day, I haven't ridden a knolly I didn't like and enjoy, so if Noel is leading, I'm fine to follow.
    I'm glad the Warden is "in addition to" the current line-up rather than a "replacement for" (for now at least) the Endo. I have been talking to several people lately about the Endo, and I feel that an Endo 650 would lose some of the characteristics that make the current Endo so good.

    unfortunately, I think your right, 26ers will be filtered out over the next several years. Glad I have 2 26ers right now that I really like and should be around for the long haul.
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    Quote Originally Posted by thefriar View Post
    I'm curious about 650b, but idea of it being forced down our throats through planned obsolescence of 26 I am not cool about.

    I'm starting to get worried about 26 being pushed out by 650b. Almost like quality improvements and durability increases in 26'' have created a need for an artificial upgrade mandate to 650b, and they'll shut the supply of 26'' to force the shift.
    Don't worry: the 26er isn't going away. If most of the customer base migrates then you will see the bigger companies go away from making 26er specific components; but--no worries--a lot of mountain bike companies live by filling niche needs. Besides, by the time 26ers go out of style you will be able to 3d print all the components you need.
    "sounds like you need to find a better mechanic..." -- Calhoun

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    Quote Originally Posted by Big B View Post
    As the proud owner of brand new Chilcotin, and the fact that I've never tried a 650b, my enthusiasm is somewhat muted, but I'm excited to see Knolly continue to grow his offerings, and hope this new frame appeals to all the 650b riders out there. I'd be stoked on it if I counted myself among the big wheel boys.

    I'd like to try one someday...
    Ditto
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    Quote Originally Posted by rscecil007 View Post
    The new Podium has always had that ti hardware, but would be interesting if the other two started coming with it.
    That will be my ruin! New 4x4 linkage, CCDB CS ...

  47. #47
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    agreed. 26er is not going any where any time soon. it'll take quite some time for the 650b to fully implement it's way into "standardization." an example is CD based music. it's still around and devices are still being produced even after digitally stored devices have been introduced back in 2001 (ipod).

    like what tiSS'er said "the Warden is in addition to the current lineup rather than a replacement for the Endo." Knolly has done itself right while not to totally discriminate and isolate it's customer base by phasing out the 26. Unlike Nukeproof who are no longer offering the 26 across the board for all of it's built-up 2014 bikes. That's bad business.

    the 650b was introduced sometime in 2004. tire manufacturers started making the tire size around 2009 and within the last several years they're finally making there way into the mountain bike scene. so it's not like we've been totally shocked about this. the tire size has been around for decades on roadies. just like the 700c (roadie) a.k.a. 29er (mtb) it was just a matter of time for the 650b (27.5 if you prefer) to come around.

    it's just nice to see the mountain bike industry evolving and progressing. gives us something to get excited about, good or bad. i'm sure carbon went through similar love-hate debates when first introduced. it would of been worse if it were stagnant and only saw them come out with another paint scheme.

    speaking of carbon, i wonder what noel, dusty and the crew will reveal for which model will get the carbon treatment?!

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by TSC View Post
    Explain to me please about the 44/56mm.

    --Is the wider bottom necessary to accommodate angle-set headsets because the smaller diameter headtube top?
    This one is "probably". CC sells a "ANGLESET ZS44 | EC49" combo and a a "ANGLESET ZS44 | ZS56" combo but does not sell a "ANGLESET ZS44 | ZS49" combo. So to accommodate an angleset with the 44mm top without raising the front end Noel had to make the bottom a 56mm.

    EC = External Cup which adds 14mm of Bottom Stack Height.
    ZS = ZeroStack which adds 4mm of Bottom Stack Height.
    "sounds like you need to find a better mechanic..." -- Calhoun

  49. #49
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    The Warden looks cool! Not a name I expect for a Knolly bike, but maybe that part of it to not be stuck in a corner, which is refreshing. Congrats Knolly!

    I wonder if Eurobike, Interbike is just every brand providing a 27.5 frame or component. Basically we will skip a year in new mountain bike stuff......just say new 27.5 part X or new 27.5 frame X.

    I am still looking forward to the companies that are providing some new non-27.5 stuff - carbon, new widget, etc.

  50. #50
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    Oooooo. Aaaaah. Nicely done guys. A demo fleet ready by interbike outdoor demo is probably too much to hope for?
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    Quote Originally Posted by rscecil007 View Post
    44 mm wont' fit a 1.5"

    correct, it's so you can run a tapered fork with a zerostack hs

    no idea about the angle set thing
    44mm will fit 1.5", top or bottom. Obviously not zero stack on either for a 1.5" steerer but there are headsets for it. It's tougher to find (Nukeproof made them and last year I had to order from CRC as my LBS couldn't provide), although now you can pick them up from Cane Creek and probably others.

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    Put me down for one of these in green, despite the name.. I'm hoping the name will grow on me in time. Warden reminds me of an old peoples home for some reason....I think Ranger would have been better.

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    ... Am I nuts to start to think I can slap on the Warden rear on the Chilly front ?
    Maybe it won't work at all.. But what do you think Dusty?
    Ulating blencong sejatine tataraning lelaku...

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    Quote Originally Posted by loamranger View Post
    Put me down for one of these in green, despite the name.. I'm hoping the name will grow on me in time. Warden reminds me of an old peoples home for some reason....I think Ranger would have been better.


    LOL - +1 - the name is the only thing I don't like about this bike and it's the easiest thing to change. $10 in decals and I will have the only Knolly Sasquatch in existence...
    Last edited by vikb; 08-29-2013 at 02:49 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post


    LOL - +1 - the name is the only thing I don't like about this bike and it's the easiest thing to change. $10 in decals and I will have the only Knolly Sasquatch in existence...
    good idea....I think I'll call mine Holmbury....after my local ride

  56. #56
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    chain stays

    it's a bit difficult to see in the press photos but does anyone know if the Warden will get the sexy single-tube-chain-stay treatment the Podium has?

    in Friedrichshafen, Germany - photo by mikekazimer - Pinkbike

    knolly WARDEN-podium-triangle.jpg

  57. #57
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    Dusty, what's the shock size, please? I hope it's 200 x 57 so I can use up my spare DBair, assuming there is a frame only option?

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by softailteamrider View Post
    ... Am I nuts to start to think I can slap on the Warden rear on the Chilly front ?
    Maybe it won't work at all.. But what do you think Dusty?
    Would that be a Warcotin or a Childen?

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    I think we found Dusty's new coffee mug.

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  60. #60
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    Looking for forward to reading some reviews! Bike looks great, but the name doesn't conjure up images of free trails (especially if you live in San Diego).

  61. #61
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    Coming up with a name that everybody likes (or can live with) is next to impossible.

    Does it really matter to me? Nope.
    Last edited by Herzalot; 08-30-2013 at 04:02 AM.

  62. #62
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    Considering that's my buddy's last name, a lot of us were teasing him yesterday that he has to replace his Chilcotin already.

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    Reminds me of the new movie with Larry David (clear History) where they named the car "Howard".
    I Like the bike but the name can definitely use some work... Knolly can leave it as European name and in US release it under smth else. Let's hear some ideas. Assuming they want the message to be (trail boss)

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    In keeping with the Endo and Chilco, why not call it the Adrenalin (sp)?

  65. #65
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    Knolly stopped naming bikes out of a medical dictionary with the Podium, and then went to mountain ranges with the Chilcotin, so I think Warden is consistent with the current trend of being inconsistent. I like it.

    I think of it as the bike to rule all the other miscreants in the asylum.

    knolly WARDEN-theshawshankredemption-still12.jpg
    Last edited by Big B; 08-29-2013 at 11:22 AM.
    '04 Knolly VTach | '15 Knolly Podium | '16 Knolly Delirium | Knolly Warden

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    I guess it's a good sign that the only thing people are griping about is the name! Seriously though, who cares? I know there was a very similar reaction to the Chilcotin and Podium names and those seem just fine now. Warden works fine for me.
    Sipping the Knolly Whisquillappa

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    Quote Originally Posted by catch22 View Post
    I guess it's a good sign that the only thing people are griping about is the name!
    +1 - if that's the biggest issue with this bike we are all good...
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    Big B has it. Think of all the movies where the Warden is the freaking bad ass boss. He runs the place. He tames all of the nastiest of the nasty while keeping them locked away so you can go home at the end of your day and feel safe.

    AKA the Warden will take all other 650b bikes and all of the craziest trails and put them in their place so you can end your ride with a smile on your face.

    Medical terms are done (I love my Endorphin and the term) and mountain ranges was never a trend as it was one bad ass bike. Although it wasn't too much of a departure from mountains/ regions/ trails... There is a trail on Mount Fromme in North Vancouver called Warden's Trail, it is a ***** of a technical climb and just chunder that bucks you wild if you come down it. Almost Warden territory.

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by TSC View Post
    This one is "probably". CC sells a "ANGLESET ZS44 | EC49" combo and a a "ANGLESET ZS44 | ZS56" combo but does not sell a "ANGLESET ZS44 | ZS49" combo. So to accommodate an angleset with the 44mm top without raising the front end Noel had to make the bottom a 56mm.

    EC = External Cup which adds 14mm of Bottom Stack Height.
    ZS = ZeroStack which adds 4mm of Bottom Stack Height.
    If you want an angle set Works Components gives you the most options and without the issues CC seems to have. Nothing but great reviews form users.

    Works Components - Angle Headsets to fit Most Frame Types & CNC Bicycle Components Proudly Made in the UK

    Love that Knolly went to the big 56mm lower on the head tube. This bike looks just amazing and it's gonna suck waiting for some real world reviews now that we know it exists.

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by catch22 View Post
    I guess it's a good sign that the only thing people are griping about is the name! Seriously though, who cares?
    Answer: The name will matter very little to Knolly's current customer base; BUT it will matter to potential first-time Knolly owners. It may sound crazy, but I was reticent to buy the Chilcotin because of the name (my first Knolly). I wanted the Delirium and the name was part of the reason I preferred it. I bought a Chili and am glad I did, but the name didn't help. (I'm glad I can call it a "Chili" because I prefer that to Chilcotin.")

    This bike will be competing for market-share against carbon fiber bikes with bigger marketing budgets; so doing everything right (including naming) is extremely important to maximize market share.

    IMO the name, Warden, conjures mixed feelings (Prison Warden = BADASS! Game/Park Warden = PRICK!). If I were to look for a new name I would look at my target segment (enduro racers and all-mountain riders) and find a name that:

    Rule #1-- Attracts as many customers as possible.

    Rule #2-- Pushes away as few customers as possible.

    Rule #3-- Doesn't require educating the customer as to why you chose it (e.g. Chilcotin).

    Podium is a name that does this quite well. I might look at a name that is similar: Apex, Pinnacle, Climax, Apogee, Crest, Zenith, Peak, etc. Or, at names that evoke emotions of power: Surge, Torrent, Deluge, yada, yada.

    My personal favorite is: Climax. It means "the highest or most intense point in development". It's a mash-up of the words "clim[b]" and "max". And the sexual entendre makes the name memorable and a talking point on the trail (i.e. self-advertising). Of course "Climax" could violate Rule #2 (do no harm), but might be worth it because of Rule #1 (attract as many customers as possible).

    Of course, if I bought a bike named "Climax" I would need to buy a "Woodie" or a "Chubbie" shock from Avalanche Racing Products to put on it.
    "sounds like you need to find a better mechanic..." -- Calhoun

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by TSC View Post
    What are the frame weights of the Chili and Endo with a CTD shock? (Not sure the frame size for which the 6.75 lbs is quoted in the pic.)



    BTW, this is an engineering question as well as a weight weenie question (i.e. "don't worry about it" answers won't help).
    I'm rockin' a small Endorphin and the frame came in at 6.44 lbs with CTD shock. (RAW cause we all know that saves weight )

    VitalMTB lists the Chilcotin frame at 7.49 lbs 2013 Knolly Chilcotin ? Reviews, Comparisons, Specs ? Mountain Bikes - Vital MTB

    So once again the Warden would fall right between the two at 6.75 lbs

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    Quote Originally Posted by TSC View Post
    My personal favorite is: Climax. It means "the highest or most intense point in development". It's a mash-up of the words "clim[b]" and "max". And the sexual entendre makes the name memorable and a talking point on the trail (i.e. self-advertising). Of course "Climax" could violate Rule #2 (do no harm), but might be worth it because of Rule #1 (attract as many customers as possible).

    Of course, if I bought a bike named "Climax" I would need to buy a "Woodie" or a "Chubbie" shock from Avalanche Racing Products to put on it.
    HAHA.. Climax. It would be an orgasmic ride indeed.

    I would substitute Climax for Summit if we were to continue on that road. KNOLLY SUMMIT

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidad View Post
    If you want an angle set Works Components gives you the most options and without the issues CC seems to have. Nothing but great reviews form users.

    Works Components - Angle Headsets to fit Most Frame Types & CNC Bicycle Components Proudly Made in the UK

    Love that Knolly went to the big 56mm lower on the head tube. This bike looks just amazing and it's gonna suck waiting for some real world reviews now that we know it exists.
    Thanks for the info! I'm sure it will help a bunch of people out.

    Personally, I just run a standard headset. I'm just an incredibly curious person and I know that Noel made the headtube 44/56 for a reason. Making a tapered headtube is a headache, especially for manufacturing, so I was curious why Noel did it.

    Once I dug into the rationale, I was impressed. 44mm top matches better with the forks for this bike. 56mm allows people to set their preferred headtube angle (if it's not standard), while allowing the maximum variance in fork travel, without compromising the bike's geometry. Noel nailed it, once again!
    "sounds like you need to find a better mechanic..." -- Calhoun

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by skinnies View Post
    Big B has it. Think of all the movies where the Warden is the freaking bad ass boss. He runs the place. He tames all of the nastiest of the nasty while keeping them locked away so you can go home at the end of your day and feel safe.

    AKA the Warden will take all other 650b bikes and all of the craziest trails and put them in their place so you can end your ride with a smile on your face.

    Medical terms are done (I love my Endorphin and the term) and mountain ranges was never a trend as it was one bad ass bike. Although it wasn't too much of a departure from mountains/ regions/ trails... There is a trail on Mount Fromme in North Vancouver called Warden's Trail, it is a ***** of a technical climb and just chunder that bucks you wild if you come down it. Almost Warden territory.
    What we got here is failure to communicate!
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  75. #75
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    The name will toughen you up if you don't like it! Reference Johnny Cash "A Boy Named Sue"

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyeBokeh View Post
    I'm rockin' a small Endorphin and the frame came in at 6.44 lbs with CTD shock. (RAW cause we all know that saves weight )

    VitalMTB lists the Chilcotin frame at 7.49 lbs 2013 Knolly Chilcotin ? Reviews, Comparisons, Specs ? Mountain Bikes - Vital MTB

    So once again the Warden would fall right between the two at 6.75 lbs
    Awesome! Thanks so much. I'm guessing the weight difference is mainly in the larger diameter downtube.

    Granted there will be more rubber on a 27.5" tire, but the wheel weights don't seem to vary much*. My guess is that this bike could be made up to sub 30 lbs without much difficulty. And endro riders could use beefier tires for training/playing and lighter tires for race days and see large weight changes where it counts the most.

    *Examples
    Envy
    26" AM -- 1578g (with King Hub)
    27.5" AM -- 1602g (with King Hub)

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    Complete wheelset weight; Front and Rear wheel

    1595 g (26'' 28 hole)
    1687 g (27.5'' 28 hole)
    1872 g (29'' 32 hole)
    "sounds like you need to find a better mechanic..." -- Calhoun

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyeBokeh View Post

    HAHA.. Climax. It would be an orgasmic ride indeed.

    I would substitute Climax for Summit if we were to continue on that road. KNOLLY SUMMIT
    Yeah, my choice of "climax" for a Knolly bike was a bit tongue-in-cheek. It's a good name for the right company, but probably not Knolly. (A product name should fit the company's personality.) KNOLLY SUMMIT fits the Knolly's "persona" better.


    EDIT: I can't believe I left "summit" off my list. I just went to thesaurus.com and put in Podium and went from there. I saw "summit" and meant to put it on my list, but missed it. Glad you added it into the fray!
    "sounds like you need to find a better mechanic..." -- Calhoun

  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by catch22 View Post
    I guess it's a good sign that the only thing people are griping about is the name! Seriously though, who cares? I know there was a very similar reaction to the Chilcotin and Podium names and those seem just fine now. Warden works fine for me.
    Wurd! For who knows how long now posters have been wanting Noel to put out a 650b. Now he as delivered and getting nailed for name... All that matters is how this mofo rides.
    I'm anxiously awaiting posts of Warden's first impression of ride rather than first impression of name.

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by F.N.G View Post
    Wurd! For who knows how long now posters have been wanting Noel to put out a 650b. Now he as delivered and getting nailed for name... All that matters is how this mofo rides.
    I'm anxiously awaiting posts of Warden's first impression of ride rather than first impression of name.
    Agree...All about the ride. Name does not matter to me. Having fun with names is cool, but as long as it rides great I would ride a bike named ********.

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by TSC View Post
    Yeah, my choice of "climax" for a Knolly bike was a bit tongue-in-cheek. It's a good name for the right company, but probably not Knolly
    It would fit Cove bikes. I can't believe it's not used by them already.
    '04 Knolly VTach | '15 Knolly Podium | '16 Knolly Delirium | Knolly Warden

  81. #81
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    You could call it a Knolly @ss Hatchet, and I'd still ride it.
    If jackasses could fly this place would be an airport.

  82. #82
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    Re: knolly WARDEN

    I was gonna go farther and say you could call it the Knolly gay goat sex and I'd still ride it.....

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  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by TSC View Post
    Answer: The name will matter very little to Knolly's current customer base; BUT it will matter to potential first-time Knolly owners.
    You've made half my point.

    FWIW: I'm sorry if any of you think I'm being a hater or my comments were harsh. My comments were an academic answer to the question of "who cares what the bike is named?"

    I'm wondering what fork I will put on my WARDEN.
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  84. #84
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    You just have to look at a bunch of other 2014 bikes names coming out to quickly realize Warden isn't all that bad. It could have been
    Fuzz1, Fuzz2, Snabb, Zula, Repack, Hip Hop, Faze, Tyee
    I think you get my point...

    I have never ridden a 27.5 and would like to try one out. Wish there was a demo dealer out here in the east.

  85. #85
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    Crux.

    It should be a name of a bike, you can't bag a summit without first getting past the crux. Every trail, route, has one

    But then you'd get the haters calling it a Knolly Crutch.

  86. #86
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    I think I'd just like to call it "Mine"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Big B View Post
    It would fit Cove bikes. I can't believe it's not used by them already.
    Brodie have been using that name (ClimbMax) for ages. Given Brodie is basically down the street from Cove and is one of the more storied brands on the west coast I'm sure the Cove folks wouldn't even consider it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TSC View Post
    Answer: The name will matter very little to Knolly's current customer base; BUT it will matter to potential first-time Knolly owners. It may sound crazy, but I was reticent to buy the Chilcotin because of the name (my first Knolly). I wanted the Delirium and the name was part of the reason I preferred it. I bought a Chili and am glad I did, but the name didn't help. (I'm glad I can call it a "Chili" because I prefer that to Chilcotin.")

    This bike will be competing for market-share against carbon fiber bikes with bigger marketing budgets; so doing everything right (including naming) is extremely important to maximize market share.

    IMO the name, Warden, conjures mixed feelings (Prison Warden = BADASS! Game/Park Warden = PRICK!). If I were to look for a new name I would look at my target segment (enduro racers and all-mountain riders) and find a name that:

    Rule #1-- Attracts as many customers as possible.

    Rule #2-- Pushes away as few customers as possible.

    Rule #3-- Doesn't require educating the customer as to why you chose it (e.g. Chilcotin).

    Podium is a name that does this quite well. I might look at a name that is similar: Apex, Pinnacle, Climax, Apogee, Crest, Zenith, Peak, etc. Or, at names that evoke emotions of power: Surge, Torrent, Deluge, yada, yada.

    My personal favorite is: Climax. It means "the highest or most intense point in development". It's a mash-up of the words "clim[b]" and "max". And the sexual entendre makes the name memorable and a talking point on the trail (i.e. self-advertising). Of course "Climax" could violate Rule #2 (do no harm), but might be worth it because of Rule #1 (attract as many customers as possible).

    Of course, if I bought a bike named "Climax" I would need to buy a "Woodie" or a "Chubbie" shock from Avalanche Racing Products to put on it.


    You're very right. Name is very important in terms of marketing.

    I think chilcotin is a very cool name. Podium/delirium/endorphin are also cool. Unfortunately warden to me sounds very old and stodgy.

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    WTF! Who cares about the name of a bike. Who will base his buying decision on the name when the frame alone costs more than 2000$

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    Quote Originally Posted by bonzoo View Post
    WTF! Who cares about the name of a bike. Who will base his buying decision on the name when the frame alone costs more than 2000$
    You as an individual may not care about the name of a bike but i'm pretty sure a lot of other people do. If bike names aren't important then they'd be allocated simple names like 1 or 2 or a or b or abc etc. People ride mountain bikes out of passion not because it's just something to do. That's why the look, colours, name etc of a bike are very important. Of course this is a generalisation as there will always be people who don't care about the aesthetics, name, colours etc. So in my opinion, for a business that relies on sales to survive, the name of a bike is very important....not saying that warden is bad....but it could be better.

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    I get your point. Still I believe that Knolly is targeting a customer segment which shouldnt care too much about the name. They are not targeting "average Joe", right? They are also rather expensive and are mostly sold as frame-only kits. So most people looking for a Knolly should have a better reason that the bike's name

    At least that is how I see Knolly in Europe.

    By the way: I dont like the name but in my opinion the topic is getting a bit hyped here

  92. #92
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    You're right in terms of people who are looking for this kind of bike probably won't pay that much attention to the name.

    Think the issue is we all love the brand and want it to do well. That being the case you just want the best for the brand. But yeah we're probably talking about it too much.

  93. #93
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    Definitely talking about the name too much.... but having said that I will add that the bike makes the name just like the man makes the name..... not vice versa. If it's an awesome bike it won't matter what the name is. That name will come to be associated with legendary awesomeness if it lives up to its promise and its heritage.

    So changing the subject, I know Ibis has taken a lot of heat coming to the table with "only" 130mm of travel for their HDR 650b, but I was hoping for something more in that range (maybe 140). I think marketing wise 150 is the smart move because I suspect Noel sells more Endorphins than Chilcotins and making it overlap too much with the Endo canabalizes those sales more (not to mention 150mm seems to be what everyone is begging for eventhough most of us don't need 6" of travel most of the time) but for me personally I was hoping for something that would complement my chili not replace it.

    For me, for most of the trails I ride, for enduro racing (at least the ones I've raced)125-135mm is plenty of travel and still keeps the bike fast and poppy and eager. Maybe Noel's next project will look like that..... in carbon. Knolly Convict anyone?
    Last edited by KRob; 08-31-2013 at 01:49 PM.
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    wow, people need to relax about the name...........hehe..........Can't wait to see some custom builds on these!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by KRob View Post
    So changing the subject, I know Ibis has taken a lot of heat coming to table with "only" 130mm of travel for their HDR 650b, but I was hoping for something more in that range (maybe 140). I think marketing wise 150 is the smart move because I suspect Noel sells more Endorphins than Chilcotins and making it overalap too much with the Endo canabalizes those sales more (not to mention 150mm seems to be what everyone is begging for eventhough most of us don't need 6" of travel most of the time) but for me personally I was hoping for something that would complement my chili not replace it.
    Ibis also got panned heavily for building a new bike with the same poor tire clearance that the previous hacked 650B Mojo HD conversions suffered from. Especially when you look at what the competition did with their 650B line ups. It seemed like a half-measure just to have a 27.5er in the line up at minimal cost.

    I can't see very many companies keeping all their 26ers and 27.5ers long term. There isn't enough differentiation to justify the costs involved. Santa Cruz has already started gutting their small wheel line up below the 160mm travel range for example. So you'll probably see a shorter travel 27.5 Knolly next year.

    The question is will there be enough sales of the various models to keep them all or will some bikes have to get cut from the Knolly line up or possibly just replace say the 26er Endo with a 650B Endo and keep the name.

    Personally I'm stoked at the Warden specs because I wanted one bike to do it all. It will be replacing a 160mm SC Nomad. If you are going to put out one 27.5er this year a 150mm travel bike covers your bases pretty well between the Trail and AM folks.

    I can see why you wouldn't want a 160mm 26er and a 150mm 27.5er...too much duplication.
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  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    Personally I'm stoked at the Warden specs because I wanted one bike to do it all.
    I guess we all have different definitions of "do all". I can't DH/FR comfortably on a 150mm frame. (by DH, I"m not talking about A-line, I'm referring to chunky trails and big drops.) Of course, there are always going to tradeoffs when you label a bike do-all.

    But then again, I can't even call my Chili a do-all bike, because there are trails I ride that I consider V-tach only territory. Yah, I could do them on my Chili if I had to, but it's not anywhere near as fun.
    '04 Knolly VTach | '15 Knolly Podium | '16 Knolly Delirium | Knolly Warden

  97. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big B View Post
    I guess we all have different definitions of "do all".
    The "for me" was implied in the "do it all". Of course what that means to everyone is different.

    I'll be using the Warden for all mountain rides, trail rides and some bikepacking. FR/DH isn't part of my world view. I don't shuttle or have access to a lift so all my turns are earned by climbing first.

    Which is why I said the 150mm 650B option was a good one to cover your bases between trail riding and AM. I didn't mention FR/DH because that clearly isn't going to be what the Warden is good at.
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  98. #98
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    Just making conversation.
    '04 Knolly VTach | '15 Knolly Podium | '16 Knolly Delirium | Knolly Warden

  99. #99
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    Re: knolly WARDEN

    I'm an outsider here, a long time Yeti rider. In my opinion the name is rather lame. However this bike is marketed to a specific group of people looking to ride bikes not the masses. I'm looking for a new bike next year and this bike is intriguing, and the name won't stop me from purchasing one, not in the least bit. Would I wish for a sexier name? Yes. But the current Yeti naming is pretty utilitarian... Not sexy or filled with passion and images of epic riding.

    Yeti released a 650 B 130 millimeter trail bike. It has a frame weight with shock of 7.5 pounds. Seems like a little bit too much for a 5 inch bike. It better be stiff as hell. The warden has more travel and is lighter, intriguing!

  100. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by rscecil007 View Post
    You could call it a Knolly @ss Hatchet, and I'd still ride it.
    Then I'd be all, "check out that @ss! Wish I could ride that!"
    '04 Knolly VTach | '15 Knolly Podium | '16 Knolly Delirium | Knolly Warden

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    Quote Originally Posted by eatdrinkride View Post
    I'm an outsider here, a long time Yeti rider.
    i came from a Yeti ASR5 to an Endorphin. i couldn't believe how much more fun i'm having on the Knolly compared to the Yeti. The geometry is some kind of black magic!

    now i need to justify having a Warden to go along with the Endo.

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    Oh good! Get more people off that silly little Burner.
    Nice KOM, sorry about your penis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rscecil007 View Post
    You could call it a Knolly @ss Hatchet, and I'd still ride it.
    Bury that hatchet!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrwhlr View Post
    Oh good! Get more people off that silly little Burner.
    I don't get it. Is your constant Turner bashing supposed to be funny? Does it make you feel good, or important? Is it your special way of trying to help Knolly out?

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    Quote Originally Posted by KRob View Post
    For me, for most of the trails I ride, for enduro racing (at least the ones I've raced)125-135mm is plenty of travel and still keeps the bike fast and poppy and eager. Maybe Noel's next project will look like that..... in carbon. Knolly Convict anyone?
    Very interesting. I thought the WARDEN's specs would be spot on for Super D and Enduro racing.

    Short-travel Knolly Carbon => Knolly BenRiach or Knolly Stagg
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrwhlr View Post
    Oh good! Get more people off that silly little Burner.
    I don't know which is more inane: your vandetta against Turner, or all the hand wringing over the name.

    Pettiness on this forum aside, Knolly seems to have checked off all the right boxes with this one, should be a killer ride.
    ''It seems like a bit of a trend, everyone trying to make things longer over the last couple of years" Sam Hill

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    Quote Originally Posted by RyeBokeh View Post
    i came from a Yeti ASR5 to an Endorphin. i couldn't believe how much more fun i'm having on the Knolly compared to the Yeti. The geometry is some kind of black magic!

    now i need to justify having a Warden to go along with the Endo.
    That's interesting. I was eyeing the ASR5 for a long time before deciding to go chilcotin. Always thought the ASR5 would be a gun on the trails. Interesting that you find the endorphin that much better.

  108. #108
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    Re: knolly WARDEN

    Quote Originally Posted by miles e View Post
    I don't know which is more inane: your vandetta against Turner, or all the hand wringing over the name.

    Pettiness on this forum aside, Knolly seems to have checked off all the right boxes with this one, should be a killer ride.
    Ignore him, he's just being a tool as usual.

    I think it's not pettiness, rather people finding the one thing with the product they might have issue with. Which is a testament to how dialed Knolly got this bike.

    The adjustable hta is the one thing on my Endo, and the head Tube, that I would change and the Warden addresses it perfectly. If Endo had adjustable geo and same head Tube I could run a 160 and keep geo dialed with internal HS to mimic snappy 150 territory where it is now but have that extra travel up front. That's just me. Warden is extremely well thought out and I like the name.

    Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 4

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    Quote Originally Posted by thefriar View Post
    If Endo had adjustable geo and same head Tube I could run a 160 and keep geo dialed with internal HS to mimic snappy 150 territory where it is now but have that extra travel up front. That's just me.
    Are you sure this real versus something you think is supposed to happen with a slacker angle?

    I run a 160 Slant with an EC lower headset on my Endo and it is snappy as hell. If it were snappier, it would snap in half! I've ridden the Endo in the "recommended" 150 config too and there is no noticeable difference in snappiness or climbing. BTW - snappiness (quick turns and playfulness) is why I am riding an Endo, so it is an attribute I pay a lot of attention to. Maybe the slacker geo would be more noticeable in smaller frame sizes, and smaller guys. I'm 6'4", on an XL.

    OK, back to the Warden - (sick!)

  110. #110
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    Re: knolly WARDEN

    Quote Originally Posted by tom34 View Post
    That's interesting. I was eyeing the ASR5 for a long time before deciding to go chilcotin. Always thought the ASR5 would be a gun on the trails. Interesting that you find the endorphin that much better.
    Probably a lot depends on how one rides, and what type of trails. I have not heard very many bad things about the 5. I think the endo would be the better bike for tougher, chunkier trails.

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    Warden photos in the Knolly gallery:

    Eurobike 2013 (Gruppe) - Fotoalbum auf MTB-News.de

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    Hey guys

    I visited the Knolly booth today. Noel & Kevin were still there. Noel told me that the Warden sits between the Endo and the Chilli. If you are looking for maximum pedal-efficiency you should stick with the Endo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bonzoo View Post
    Hey guys

    I visited the Knolly booth today. Noel & Kevin were still there. Noel told me that the Warden sits between the Endo and the Chilli. If you are looking for maximum pedal-efficiency you should stick with the Endo.
    Thx for info. So, it seems like if u get the warden, it wouldn't make sense having chili too? Either own the endo and chili or just the warden?

    Did u get any indication when some geo will be avail? Like stand over, ETT, etc?

    I have never really paid much attn to 650b talk. Kind of has me interested now....

  114. #114
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    How about some numbers? TT, WB, SA, reach, stack... HA, BB, and CS are great, but only tells half the story. Give me the whole scoop, I hate teasers, I want info!

    I'm excited for this bike, I love my chil, but think its more bike than I need for some of my trails. I could go two bikes, say the chil and solo/sb75/ibis/various 29rs, or one bike to rule them all... Green or black Warden.

    As for the name, everyone forgot the most important one on this bike...KNOLLY. If people ask me what I ride, i say Knolly. My previous bike I said Transition. A name is important, but the name brand will trump any other product/descriptive name.

  115. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by TSC View Post
    Very interesting. I thought the WARDEN's specs would be spot on for Super D and Enduro racing.
    Yeah, I think the Warden will be a great enduro bike especially for some of the rougher venues like I've seen video of in Europe and Whistler where they use all out DH courses and super tech/steep sections for stages. In my experience, most of the North American enduros will be perfectly suited for shorter travel 650b and 29er bikes. Maybe that will change as Enduro evolves. Maybe the courses will evolve based on the bikes most folks are buying/racing?

    Just saying that in the Enduros I've experienced so far, shorter travel, faster bikes rule.
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    Names schnames. For me, this bike has code name WANTED.

  117. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by KRob View Post
    Yeah, I think the Warden will be a great enduro bike especially for some of the rougher venues like I've seen video of in Europe and Whistler where they use all out DH courses and super tech/steep sections for stages. In my experience, most of the North American enduros will be perfectly suited for shorter travel 650b and 29er bikes. Maybe that will change as Enduro evolves. Maybe the courses will evolve based on the bikes most folks are buying/racing?

    Just saying that in the Enduros I've experienced so far, shorter travel, faster bikes rule.
    My guess is that Enduros vary based on: 1) the available trials and their proximity to one-another; 2) the background of the organizers; and possibly 3) the bikes of the organizers.
    "sounds like you need to find a better mechanic..." -- Calhoun

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    I think we will get more information very soon Just wait a bit!

    I asked about the geometry, but didn't ask for specific numbers so I got the answer "Sits between the Endorphin & Chilcotin".

    The Chilcotin will still be the bike for the really rough stuff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TSC View Post
    My guess is that Enduros vary based on: 1) the available trials and their proximity to one-another; 2) the background of the organizers; and possibly 3) the bikes of the organizers.
    I cant speak for everywhere in Europe, but in Scotland, Wales and France, there is a very large percentage of riders who ride their 160mm travel bikes (including me on the Chilcotin) on tracks that host professional level DH races. Enduro is for a large part held on DH/bike park grade courses where only the largest features are bypassed.

    You are right. Chris Ball the Director of the Enduro World Series is a local from our town. We have the best XC,AM,DH trails in Scotland here (with the exception of fort bill), but no chairlifts. So a huge number of riders ride 160mm bikes to get to the top of the DH trails and ride back down them not that much slower than they do on DH bikes. This is what the current Enduro format reflects. Next year Chris Ball is bringing the EWS home: TweedLove Enduro World Series event : TweedLove

    As for the Warden. Sticks and Stones will break our bones but names will never harm us. Its a great addition to the Knolly line up. Ive got an Endo and a Chili so no need to own a warden too. But if I had neither (and only if I had neither) then id get a Warden.

    I think the Endo as a 140mm bike (with full bos suspension) and the Chili as a 160 (with full ava suspension) gives enough range to cover everything but the most extreme trail features, which is obviously where the podium comes in. The Warden and the Podium would be a great pairing for someone who leans towards aggressive riding and who can only have two bikes. As for which bike for Enduro...a 150mm forked Endo or a 150 forked Warden...the jurys out but id put my money on the Endo for the climbs and the Warden for the descents. Something else to consider the winner of the EWS is flicking between short and long travel on his Jekyll so often he made a homemade grip shift for it...ever thought about Dyad?...its concept is probably the future.

  120. #120
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    Dyad is a heavy, complicated air shock (not without it's problems), at that weight why not just go coil for the better feel?
    video=youtube;][/video]...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deerhill View Post
    Dyad is a heavy, complicated air shock (not without it's problems), at that point why not just go coil?
    in the present day yes, but i'm talking about its concept, i.e. what it aims to do. not the dyad shock itself. it has the potential to make a bike behave like 2 completely different bikes, i.e. xc and dh. im not sure any single travel frame design will end up faster on the enduro circuit than future optimised dual travel bikes. of course for the meantime the tech is young, heavy, not as reliable or plush as single travel kit, but its not going to be this biased for that much longer.

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    Seems a shock like that really only limits sag and then is damped like a lockout/propedal feel.. If you're climbing chunk and don't want the elevate/lockout feel and need more travel, it sags back down and slacks the geometry.


    Quick geometry switch is neat don't get me wrong.. the damping just needs to be independent.
    video=youtube;][/video]...

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    Quote Originally Posted by bonzoo View Post
    I think I saw a Team Orange Chili in the background of one of the pics. But, I did notice that the three bikes built for "show" were the Warden, Endo, and Podium.

    I was wondering why he wouldn't have a built chili? Could it be that maybe it would be too close to the Warden resulting in not so much attn being paid to the Warden? Since this is a new bike that came out, maybe Noel didn't want any attn diverted from Warden.

    Just wondering.

  125. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by F.N.G View Post
    I think I saw a Team Orange Chili in the background of one of the pics. But, I did notice that the three bikes built for "show" were the Warden, Endo, and Podium.

    I was wondering why he wouldn't have a built chili? Could it be that maybe it would be too close to the Warden resulting in not so much attn being paid to the Warden? Since this is a new bike that came out, maybe Noel didn't want any attn diverted from Warden.

    Just wondering.
    New trumps old. My guess: the Chili is the "old" bike of the lot; and possibly he didn't want to deal with lots of 26 vs 27.5 questions.

    Edit: Or, all the components to build the Chili up didn't make it (not packed or lost in shipping). I had both of those things happen when I did roadshows for HP.
    "sounds like you need to find a better mechanic..." -- Calhoun

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    Quote Originally Posted by tom34 View Post
    That's interesting. I was eyeing the ASR5 for a long time before deciding to go chilcotin. Always thought the ASR5 would be a gun on the trails. Interesting that you find the endorphin that much better.
    the ASR5 has a sportier ride than the Endorphin and definitely can be built up as a "cheater bike." it's great if you prefer to feel the trail beneath you. acceleration is quick and has mountain goat climbing ability but it always felt like i wanted more out of it when pointing the nose down. also, it always felt like i was riding on it (like a horse) rather than in it.

    Quote Originally Posted by eatdrinkride View Post
    Probably a lot depends on how one rides, and what type of trails. I have not heard very many bad things about the 5. I think the endo would be the better bike for tougher, chunkier trails.
    agreed, the 5 is a great bike but my discipline changed as a rider. although i had a 140mm fork rather than the preferred 120mm the bike felt geared towards an aggressive XC rider than a Trail/All-Mountain rider. the Endorphin's just more fun going down hill with it's active suspension and ability to cruise over the chunky bits.

    can't wait to demo a Warden once it arrives at my LBS. i'd like to demo one back to back with a Chilcotin and possibly pick one of them up to pair with my Endo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bonzoo View Post
    thanks for the link! interesting to hear Noel talk about the Warden built as an Enduro style frame.

    here's the direct link to the video in full HD.
    http://videos.mtb-news.de/videos/view/31033/fhd?qc=fhd

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    We had a complete yellow Chilcotin at our booth as well. The Endorphin and Chilcotin will remain available as 26" offerings for the foreseeable future. Jumping into the 650b game is all about options for everyone. If you want to try 650b wheels, fine, we have you covered. Or if you're happy with 26" wheels, that's fine too. There is unquestionably a huge amount of buzz surrounding the 650 wheel size, but it's important to remember that it's an option, and shouldn't necessarily be treated as a "feature". It's a different wheel size, but defining it as better will always depend on your individual priorities.

    I think the same parameters apply to the whole carbon vs. aluminum conversation. Will we be getting into carbon in the future? Yes. Carbon is lighter, but alloy is more durable, so let's assume those 2 pros and cons cancel each other out(since again, not everyone's priorities are the same.) Then it comes down to how each material feels beneath you in terms of deflection, vibration absorption, and overall compliance and 'playfulness'. I think this concept is generally lost in the noise created by weight vs. durability. Noel knows how to make an alloy bike that feels absolutely fantastic between your legs, this is a fact.

    Lastly, and by far most importantly, there is suspension philosophy, design, and execution. The reason you see 90% of bike makers shouting "650b!!!" from the top of every mountain is because they don't have a suspension design worthy of an ongoing marketing campaign. In fact, if you think about it, almost every other 'boutique' maker licenses there design from someone that doesn't work for their company, or they have purchased the design from someone that is no longer even in the bike industry. Food for thought.

    The show went great, The Warden caught so much media buzz, everyone was very excited about the design. I'm freaking exhausted.

    @FNG - This response is not pointed directly at you, just seemed like a good place to share these thoughts.



    Quote Originally Posted by F.N.G View Post
    I think I saw a Team Orange Chili in the background of one of the pics. But, I did notice that the three bikes built for "show" were the Warden, Endo, and Podium.

    I was wondering why he wouldn't have a built chili? Could it be that maybe it would be too close to the Warden resulting in not so much attn being paid to the Warden? Since this is a new bike that came out, maybe Noel didn't want any attn diverted from Warden.

    Just wondering.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty Bottoms View Post

    Lastly, and by far most importantly, there is suspension philosophy, design, and execution. The reason you see 90% of bike makers shouting "650b!!!" from the top of every mountain is because they don't have a suspension design worthy of an ongoing marketing campaign. In fact, if you think about it, almost every other 'boutique' maker licenses there design from someone that doesn't work for their company, or they have purchased the design from someone that is no longer even in the bike industry. Food for thought.

    The show went great, The Warden caught so much media buzz, everyone was very excited about the design. I'm freaking exhausted.

    @FNG - This response is not pointed directly at you, just seemed like a good place to share these thoughts.
    too true. the other reason they are shouting 650b is to increase sales. the 26" is hardly dead despite the 650b revolution created by the manufacturers. yes, some companies have went 650b only but that isn't because it's better, it's strictly to force you into 650b by not offering 26" anymore. great to see knolly offering 650b as an option and keeping the endo and chili alive. i don't see 650b killing 26". a good design is a good design and i still think rider skill is the ultimate equalizer. i'm more than happy with my 26" bikes and don't see a change in the near future for me

  130. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by qbert2000 View Post
    too true. the other reason they are shouting 650b is to increase sales. the 26" is hardly dead despite the 650b revolution created by the manufacturers. yes, some companies have went 650b only but that isn't because it's better, it's strictly to force you into 650b by not offering 26" anymore. great to see knolly offering 650b as an option and keeping the endo and chili alive. i don't see 650b killing 26". a good design is a good design and i still think rider skill is the ultimate equalizer. i'm more than happy with my 26" bikes and don't see a change in the near future for me
    I will be honest. I don't know crap about 650b other than bigger wheels. I never paid one notice of attention to 29ers when they came out. Actually found them irritating. Maybe it was just because of all the hype. Now, since the 650b has been buzzing, I am hearing a lot of people that hated 29ers liking this concept.
    I am not trying to sound like a Knolly fanboi but I absolutely love my Chilcotin. It has made my riding so much more fun. Both up and down the mountain. So, by riding a suspension design that I feel perfect for me, I probably will always own Knollies.
    That being said....because Knolly has a 650b out now, I have to admit, my interests are peaked where they never were before on them.

    In simple terms, what is it that 650b people like? The bigger wheels than 26 but not huge like 29? A "meet in the middle" compromise between 26 and 29?

    As you can see classifieds, I am selling my Chilco to buy a Medium. Now i am wondering if i should try the Warden since Knolly offers one??? It is a more costly mistake to make since you have to invest in wheels and fork.

    Just asking for some advice on people more versed in this subject than I. Thanks.

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    In simple terms, what is it that 650b people like? The bigger wheels than 26 but not huge like 29? A "meet in the middle" compromise between 26 and 29?
    In simple terms yes. Also depends if your a cup half full or a cup half empty kind of person. Some say the best of both worlds and some say the worst. Go have a look at Giants huge 650b marketing logic (or Rocky Mountain or even Trek now) and see what you think. For me it works and I predicted this would happen. I started mtn biking in 08 and quickly discovered 650b and converted my Prophet and haven't looked back. Since then I've had a 650b Jamis Dakar and now a Banshee Spitfire V2 which I'm assembling in 650b. 29'ers are amazing in their own way and I did stuff on them I couldn't on the Prophet but had drawbacks for me I didn't like. My personal belief is 650b has a wider sweet spot over a range of different conditions than 26" or 29". I also think the Warden is gonna rock and have a huge impact on Endorphin sales and maybe the Chilly as well. I would say go for it if you can wait till Feb. for a frame.

    As you can see classifieds, I am selling my Chilco to buy a Medium. Now i am wondering if i should try the Warden since Knolly offers one??? It is a more costly mistake to make since you have to invest in wheels and fork.
    Yup, wheels and a fork although their are a # of 26" forks that work with 650b wheels (some with limitations on tire diameter since 650b tires can vary by a 1/2" or more in diameter) A Fox 36 for example will handle any 650b wheel. What fork do you have now as it might possible work?

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    Quote Originally Posted by skidad View Post
    In simple terms yes. Also depends if your a cup half full or a cup half empty kind of person. Some say the best of both worlds and some say the worst. Go have a look at Giants huge 650b marketing logic (or Rocky Mountain or even Trek now) and see what you think. For me it works and I predicted this would happen. I started mtn biking in 08 and quickly discovered 650b and converted my Prophet and haven't looked back. Since then I've had a 650b Jamis Dakar and now a Banshee Spitfire V2 which I'm assembling in 650b. 29'ers are amazing in their own way and I did stuff on them I couldn't on the Prophet but had drawbacks for me I didn't like. My personal belief is 650b has a wider sweet spot over a range of different conditions than 26" or 29". I also think the Warden is gonna rock and have a huge impact on Endorphin sales and maybe the Chilly as well. I would say go for it if you can wait till Feb. for a frame.



    Yup, wheels and a fork although their are a # of 26" forks that work with 650b wheels (some with limitations on tire diameter since 650b tires can vary by a 1/2" or more in diameter) A Fox 36 for example will handle any 650b wheel. What fork do you have now as it might possible work?
    Lyrik rc2 DH

  133. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by F.N.G View Post
    Lyrik rc2 DH
    Lyric will work with some but not all 650b tires. A Pacenti Neo-Moto 2.3" for example will fit but a taller Schwalbe HD or NN 2.35" no. Unless you want to get into arch grinding for more clearance. You could get by with that fork in the short term no problem. I think the A/C height is even in the ball park. Warden geometry I assume is based off a 545mm A/C height (150mm travel) 650b fork like the new Pike or a Fox.

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    I think 650b takes the 26 bike and adds some additional versatility with few drawbacks.

    As for the excellent points Dusty touched on: weight and deflection/durability. At 33 lbs the Chilicotin is an amazing bike, but I also find myself desiring a slightly lighter climb so that I have more gas on the downs. Not a big deal but as an aging Clydesdale, I think about this more these days.

    Ideally, a 26-28lb trail crusher with 650b wheels would be my choice.

    What does a fully built Warden come in at weight wise in the various sizes ( I'm most interested in large myself)?

    ...and in my opinion the Warden should have British racing green as one of the color options.

  135. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by vancouver View Post
    I think 650b takes the 26 bike and adds some additional versatility with few drawbacks.

    As for the excellent points Dusty touched on: weight and deflection/durability. At 33 lbs the Chilicotin is an amazing bike, but I also find myself desiring a slightly lighter climb so that I have more gas on the downs. Not a big deal but as an aging Clydesdale, I think about this more these days.

    Ideally, a 26-28lb trail crusher with 650b wheels would be my choice.

    What does a fully built Warden come in at weight wise in the various sizes ( I'm most interested in large myself)?

    ...and in my opinion the Warden should have British racing green as one of the color options.
    I argue that 2 bikes with same geometry - one with 26in wheel and one with 650b. The 26inch wheels will be faster uphill owing the lower rotational weight. On downhill, unless it is uber straight and flat out, you will not notice that much difference. At slower speeds, the 26er will be more flickable. In the end, one is more playful and one is more stable. This has been the argument (ignoring frame geometry limitations) between 26er and 29er from the beginning. It is the same thing for the 26er and 650B, but only the differences are smaller.

    In general, I find people who race prefer 29er, as they provide more stability for shorter travel race bikes. The long travel 29er never really materialized. For most us, we going downhill to play on the trail features. Now we want to go fast while doing this, but most are not worried about the few seconds - we are riding with our buddies.

    Sorry to vent my frustration, but I am tired of hearing that 650B is the end all be all of bikes. I agree it has its place, there is no turning back.

    Devil's advocate...
    I imagine you can build the Chilcotin with the new Pike with some lighter tires and AM parts and be close 28lbs. And that bike will be a trail crusher! That's the beauty of Knolly bikes - geometry, versatility, and ability to use big wheels.

    Besides consumers, I hope companies that believe in 26er also put up some resistance and state it openly (ie Specialized) such that component/fork companies recognize their place. If companies don't make stand, it is just a bunch of internet e-riders complaining and this voice is often ignored.

    I am glad Knolly is sticking with their original line up and adding a 650B for the competition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dude! View Post
    I argue that 2 bikes with same geometry - one with 26in wheel and one with 650b. The 26inch wheels will be faster uphill owing the lower rotational weight. On downhill, unless it is uber straight and flat out, you will not notice that much difference. At slower speeds, the 26er will be more flickable. In the end, one is more playful and one is more stable. This has been the argument (ignoring frame geometry limitations) between 26er and 29er from the beginning. It is the same thing for the 26er and 650B, but only the differences are smaller.

    In general, I find people who race prefer 29er, as they provide more stability for shorter travel race bikes. The long travel 29er never really materialized. For most us, we going downhill to play on the trail features. Now we want to go fast while doing this, but most are not worried about the few seconds - we are riding with our buddies.

    Sorry to vent my frustration, but I am tired of hearing that 650B is the end all be all of bikes. I agree it has its place, there is no turning back.

    Devil's advocate...
    I imagine you can build the Chilcotin with the new Pike with some lighter tires and AM parts and be close 28lbs. And that bike will be a trail crusher! That's the beauty of Knolly bikes - geometry, versatility, and ability to use big wheels.

    Besides consumers, I hope companies that believe in 26er also put up some resistance and state it openly (ie Specialized) such that component/fork companies recognize their place. If companies don't make stand, it is just a bunch of internet e-riders complaining and this voice is often ignored.

    I am glad Knolly is sticking with their original line up and adding a 650B for the competition.
    I like the chilcotin as it is. For how I use it, it is close to perfect. I do t think I can take 5 lbs off the bike without compromising its amazing ability.

    My thoughts are on island type riding: rocky rooty single track. I am pondering something like the endo but the warden may fit the bill. Hence the question. I don't care much about the wheel size debate. I'm more interested in finding ways to elevate my riding.

  137. #137
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    In making wheels, aluminum is lighter than rubber. I've not noticed huge differences 26 vs 650b wheel weights (see from my previous post below); so switching to a larger diameter rim could be a lighter-weight alternative to get the same wheel diameter.


    Quote Originally Posted by TSC View Post
    *Examples
    Envy
    26" AM -- 1578g (with King Hub)
    27.5" AM -- 1602g (with King Hub)

    Syntace W35 MX REAR
    Complete wheelset weight; Front and Rear wheel

    1595 g (26'' 28 hole)
    1687 g (27.5'' 28 hole)
    1872 g (29'' 32 hole)
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    Quote Originally Posted by TSC View Post
    In making wheels, aluminum is lighter than rubber. I've not noticed huge differences 26 vs 650b wheel weights (see from my previous post below); so switching to a larger diameter rim could be a lighter-weight alternative to get the same wheel diameter.
    Interesting. Did you compute a full difference - wheel, tire, and tube? If the weight difference << 100grams, not too bad. If the weight difference > 100grams, it could be noticeable.

    I forget the saying X number of rotational weight is X of frame weight?

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    Quote Originally Posted by skidad View Post
    Lyric will work with some but not all 650b tires. A Pacenti Neo-Moto 2.3" for example will fit but a taller Schwalbe HD or NN 2.35" no. Unless you want to get into arch grinding for more clearance. You could get by with that fork in the short term no problem. I think the A/C height is even in the ball park. Warden geometry I assume is based off a 545mm A/C height (150mm travel) 650b fork like the new Pike or a Fox.
    BOS also works with 650b.

    FNG, I'm running a 650b front/ 26 rear combo on my Chili. My suggestion is to try that first and see if you like/dislike it before commiting to a Warden. My interest in the Warden is as a second AM/Enduro bike with 160 air fork and air shock and then leaving the Chili with 180 coil fork and coil shock for uplift days.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty Bottoms View Post
    We had a complete yellow Chilcotin at our booth as well. The Endorphin and Chilcotin will remain available as 26" offerings for the foreseeable future. Jumping into the 650b game is all about options for everyone. If you want to try 650b wheels, fine, we have you covered. Or if you're happy with 26" wheels, that's fine too. There is unquestionably a huge amount of buzz surrounding the 650 wheel size, but it's important to remember that it's an option, and shouldn't necessarily be treated as a "feature". It's a different wheel size, but defining it as better will always depend on your individual priorities.

    I think the same parameters apply to the whole carbon vs. aluminum conversation. Will we be getting into carbon in the future? Yes. Carbon is lighter, but alloy is more durable, so let's assume those 2 pros and cons cancel each other out(since again, not everyone's priorities are the same.) Then it comes down to how each material feels beneath you in terms of deflection, vibration absorption, and overall compliance and 'playfulness'. I think this concept is generally lost in the noise created by weight vs. durability. Noel knows how to make an alloy bike that feels absolutely fantastic between your legs, this is a fact.

    Lastly, and by far most importantly, there is suspension philosophy, design, and execution. The reason you see 90% of bike makers shouting "650b!!!" from the top of every mountain is because they don't have a suspension design worthy of an ongoing marketing campaign. In fact, if you think about it, almost every other 'boutique' maker licenses there design from someone that doesn't work for their company, or they have purchased the design from someone that is no longer even in the bike industry. Food for thought.

    The show went great, The Warden caught so much media buzz, everyone was very excited about the design. I'm freaking exhausted.

    @FNG - This response is not pointed directly at you, just seemed like a good place to share these thoughts.
    Dusty, you make some good points. Ali vs carbon hasn't been discussed in great depth anywhere and it now seems that a lot of people aspire to having a carbon frame because it is supposed to be lighter without thinking about the different ride characteristics of the materials.

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    Disclaimer and Knolly Group hug.....

    Quote Originally Posted by loamranger View Post
    BOS also works with 650b.

    FNG, I'm running a 650b front/ 26 rear combo on my Chili. My suggestion is to try that first and see if you like/dislike it before commiting to a Warden. My interest in the Warden is as a second AM/Enduro bike with 160 air fork and air shock and then leaving the Chili with 180 coil fork and coil shock for uplift days.
    Interesting! Thanks. Real quick without boring you all. I have been on this board more than usual lately... I wrecked two weeks ago and sustained a a fracture to the C5 Spinous Process along with ligament damage. Basically, grounded from what I do that i love...ride Chilco. I am spending my pent up riding energy surfing the forums.... Heck, you saw the excitement Dom brought me with his post of his fine formed woman!!! I have quite a few percocets, valiums, and alcohol running through my veins.

    I feel like I am turning into TSC here...with all these thoughts...(joke). You said that you run 650b front and 26 rear. Fortunately, I ride with a few guys that are very knowledgeable. Also Knolly riders. What if you ran the Warden with 26" tires? That way, you get a true in between Endo/Chilco. A 150mm travel adjustable bike with that head tube? Allowing you to run a tapered or full 1.5" steerer tube with an Internal bottom cup! It seems that nowadays, 1 1/8th steerer tube forks are themselves becoming obsolete. I don't like running external bottom cups due to altering true geo.

    At Loamranger...you make an interesting point. Rotational weight is different than regular weight. So, if you could save a few hundred grams on something, it should be the wheels since they are rotational. Primarily the rear wheel!???

    Bottom line, I wouldn't be in this dilemma in considering a Warden if it weren't for both the injury and the fact I am buying a new Knolly. Dam you Noel!!!

    Ok, someone else can pontificate now. And would someone please buy by Chilco!!!

  142. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dude! View Post
    I argue that 2 bikes with same geometry - one with 26in wheel and one with 650b. The 26inch wheels will be faster uphill owing the lower rotational weight. On downhill, unless it is uber straight and flat out, you will not notice that much difference. At slower speeds, the 26er will be more flickable. In the end, one is more playful and one is more stable. This has been the argument (ignoring frame geometry limitations) between 26er and 29er from the beginning. It is the same thing for the 26er and 650B, but only the differences are smaller.
    I've done some realworld experimenting with 26er wheels using different tires. I didn't plan on doing the testing I was just switching to winter rubber, but noticed a huge difference in how my bike rolled through tech sections - both up and down, but the impact was most noticeable going up because of the slower speeds and less momentum.

    I ended up measuring the wheels with tires and there was a 20mm difference going to the bigger tire which was ~27" in diameter [for reference the 2.35" 650B High Roller II is ~27.5" tall'.

    Since my riding 95% technical rolling through tech sections more easily is very important so I kept running those same big 26er tires which max out my frame's rear triangle.

    I'm faster up and down on the bigger 26er wheel/tire combo. I expect to be faster up and down on 650B bike as well. Although I'm looking forward to getting some of the bigger diameter wheel performance I like without having to run the widest tire I can get my hands on.

    I ride a rigid 29er and have contemplated a FS 29er, but the availability of 650B bikes offers a lot of the benefits of the bigger wheel without the compromises of a 29er wheel.

    While I agree that nobody needs a 650B bike the way nobody needs a 29er or a 26er for that matter. You can ride trails on all the wheel sizes and come away smiling unless you are crazy picky. Having said that if you are going to drop $5K+ on a mountain bike you should get the one that you are stoked most about and that suits your needs the best.

    I do think that 26ers and 650B bikes will not play nice in most company's bike line ups over the longterm. Unlike the 26er vs. 29er situation where there were some clear pros and cons to differentiate the showroom floor options the 26er vs. 650B situation is a lot less clear and that means a lot of money would get spent trying to sell similar bikes. Just my opinion, but I think something has to give and that it will likely mean the end of most 26ers below the 160mm travel range.

    I'm one of those folks really stoked about the wave of 650B bikes that's just arrived. They fit my needs well and I'm happy to have a bunch of choices.

    When MTBs started being built the 26" wheel wasn't selected because it was found to be ideal for mountain biking. It was just one of the bicycle wheels available at the time and folks jumped on to it for that reason. I've had lots of great years of riding 26er wheels/tires, but I really don't care whether they are around in 5yrs in any numbers.

    I'm not going to get attached to 650B either. I'm going to buy a 650B bike and ride it for 5yrs. When stuff starts to really wear out I'll get rid of it and buy whatever is available at the time that best meets my needs.
    Safe riding,

    Vik
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty Bottoms View Post
    Lastly, and by far most importantly, there is suspension philosophy, design, and execution. The reason you see 90% of bike makers shouting "650b!!!" from the top of every mountain is because they don't have a suspension design worthy of an ongoing marketing campaign. In fact, if you think about it, almost every other 'boutique' maker licenses there design from someone that doesn't work for their company, or they have purchased the design from someone that is no longer even in the bike industry. Food for thought.
    +1 - I've been shopping for a new MTB the last while and I started by making a list of the companies that had well executed suspension designs that I could get excited about. Then I looked at what the wheel size, geometry and suspension travel options were.

    If the suspension design and implementation isn't great it really doesn't matter what you do with the rest of the bike. It will be less than spectacular.
    Safe riding,

    Vik
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  144. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dude! View Post
    Interesting. Did you compute a full difference - wheel, tire, and tube? If the weight difference << 100grams, not too bad. If the weight difference > 100grams, it could be noticeable.

    I forget the saying X number of rotational weight is X of frame weight?
    I haven't jumped into all the physics behind rotational mass; but my understanding is that affects of rotational mass are are noticed when accelerating or decelerating the bike. Supposedly, from an article I read, that if you keep a steady speed then the rotational mass doesn't matter. If true, then you end up with the weight on the outside of the tire mattering the most; and mattering in techy terrain.

    The wheel weights I quoted are directly from the two manufacturers' websites. My assumption is that these are the weights without the tire, tape, etc. Unfortunately I'm not able to an apples-to-apples comparison on the tires to see if I'm right.

    Another way to look at it is that going from a 2.25 to a 2.35 in the same tire gains you .2" for a weight increase of 50g. (You are getting a wider tire too.) Going from a 26 to a 650b gains you 1" for 35g plus the increased rim & spoke weight. If you were doing the Enve rims then it's 24g for a total of 59g. That's 9g more for .8" more in diameter. Therefore any performance due to rotational mass will be negligible.

    Here's a sort-of example of what I'm talking about.

    Nobby Nic HS 411 (Evolution Line, Folding Bead)
    ETRTO
    Size
    Performance Compound PSI Weight
    Diameter (mm) Diameter (in.)
    57-559 26 x 2.25 TL Ready PaceStar 26-54 545 g 674.5 26.6
    57-584 27.5 x 2.25 TL Ready PaceStar 26-54 575 g
    699.5 27.6
    60-559 26 x 2.35 TL Ready PaceStar 23-50 595 g 680.5 26.8

    *The numbers in blue are calculated by averaging, taking the mean, comparing the values, & selecting tires whose average and mean were close (for Schwalbe tires). They are close but not more than that.

    Edit: Screwed around with the table trying to make it easier to read and for comparisons. (Just avoiding work.)
    Last edited by TSC; 09-03-2013 at 10:12 AM.
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  145. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    When MTBs started being built the 26" wheel wasn't selected because it was found to be ideal for mountain biking. It was just one of the bicycle wheels available at the time and folks jumped on to it for that reason. I've had lots of great years of riding 26er wheels/tires, but I really don't care whether they are around in 5yrs in any numbers.
    This is one of those internet arguments that seems to have gained traction even though it is total crap. The 26" wheel won at that time precisely because it was deemed to offer the best performance. The late 80s and early 90s were the golden age of the small independent builder and mtb innovation. All kinds of crazy ideas got thrown against the wall including different frame materials, suspension, geometries and wheel sizes. You could buy off road worthy 700c tires at least as far back as 1992. The only reason the other wheel sizes didn't take off earlier is that none of the builders of the time thought it was worth marketing, nothing more and nothing less. I have zero desire to ride the hardtail bikes with NORBA geometry that won the day but I do object to the inaccuracy of the argument.

    The wheel size question is kind of like chainstay length. There are pluses and minuses. I've spent a long day on a Bronson, while it was a fine bike I would really have to try one that didn't have crap CTD suspension to know if I would be happy with it.

    The warden seems like a pretty killer bike for those seeking a one bike solution. It also seems like it leaves room for a shorter travel carbon bike which would ideally compliment my Chilcotin.
    Only two infinite things exist: the universe and stupidity. And, I am unsure of the universe
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  146. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by F.N.G View Post
    I feel like I am turning into TSC here...with all these thoughts...(joke). You said that you run 650b front and 26 rear. Fortunately, I ride with a few guys that are very knowledgeable. Also Knolly riders. What if you ran the Warden with 26" tires? That way, you get a true in between Endo/Chilco. A 150mm travel adjustable bike with that head tube? Allowing you to run a tapered or full 1.5" steerer tube with an Internal bottom cup! It seems that nowadays, 1 1/8th steerer tube forks are themselves becoming obsolete. I don't like running external bottom cups due to altering true geo.
    First, you wish. It takes a lot to be as nerdy as me!

    Second, you probably don't want to do that. The warden already has BB height that is spec'd to be a tad lower than the Chili, IIRC. By putting 26" wheels on the Warden you would drop your BB by 1/2 an inch and make it a low-rider.

    BTW, heal well! You in a turtle shell? (I did 3+ months in one and it SUCKED!!!)
    "sounds like you need to find a better mechanic..." -- Calhoun

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    Devil's advocate...
    I imagine you can build the Chilcotin with the new Pike with some lighter tires and AM parts and be close 28lbs. And that bike will be a trail crusher!


    I was playing around with parts last winter and had a chilly built up at 26.5 lbs and yes they were ridable parts

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    Quote Originally Posted by pfarrell View Post
    Devil's advocate...
    I imagine you can build the Chilcotin with the new Pike with some lighter tires and AM parts and be close 28lbs. And that bike will be a trail crusher!


    I was playing around with parts last winter and had a chilly built up at 26.5 lbs and yes they were ridable parts
    Is your frame a large? What is your setup?

  149. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Giggity View Post
    This is one of those internet arguments that seems to have gained traction even though it is total crap. The 26" wheel won at that time precisely because it was deemed to offer the best performance.
    Right. So the folks keen on building MTBs at the time started with a blank slate and based on the design parameters concluded that a 26" rim was the optimal choice and by sheer luck that size wheel was readily available on bikes at the time with appropriate tires.

    How convenient....

    Nobody in mountain biking invented the 26er/650B/29er wheel size. They've been around for other road bicycle applications and were simply adopted because they were the closest thing to what folks wanted at the time that was readily available.

    People use what they can get their hands on. Starting something new is tough enough without having to invent every part you need.

    Given the popularity of 29ers for hardtails and rigid bikes if the early MTB pioneers were so willing to forge a completely fresh path they should have worked with the 700c wheels of the day since all their bikes were rigid.

    There are many examples in the bike industry of technology or techno-myth where folks grabbed one thing and stuck with it despite it not being the best option.

    This is from Joe Breeze:

    The “fat tire,” that is one having a cross-sectional diameter of 2” or more, is what later fired the imagination of so many to how far a bicycle could go off road. It gave the mountain bike its extreme degree of ruggedness. Bicycle fat tires, also known as balloon tires, came into existence in the early 1930s, possibly late 1920s. Whether the first balloon-tire bike to be ridden off road was American or European (possibly German), I don’t know. Semperit had a 26 x 2” tire in the early 1930s. Arnold, Schwinn & Co. of Chicago was introduced to such a tire in Germany in 1932 and popularized the size in America.
    Nobody picked the 26" wheel. It was just there at the right time with the right tires to get mountain biking rolling. Once it was rolling it just kept going for a lot of years until people were ready to experiment and the 29er is certainly not a fad.

    There is no rationale reason to hang onto the 26er just because it was on MTBs for a long time. If it works for you on your local trails great, but there is nothing magical or special about it and there is nothing wrong with 650B just because it wasn't the wheel size MTBs started with.

    650B and ballon tires were popular in France in the early part of the last century. It's really just luck that that wheel size didn't make it across the pond to spark the start of modern mountain biking.
    Safe riding,

    Vik
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  150. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    People use what they can get their hands on.
    I read this a while back. It is attributed to Joe Breeze*. History of 650B | Bike198

    *About Joe Breeze: Hall of Fame Inductees - The Mountain Bike Hall of Fame
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  151. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by pfarrell View Post
    I was playing around with parts last winter and had a chilly built up at 26.5 lbs and yes they were ridable parts
    Wowzers!

    How light have you built up your new Endo; or how light do you think you could make it with "ridable parts"?
    "sounds like you need to find a better mechanic..." -- Calhoun

  152. #152
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    Aah yes ! TIG.

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    Hi Cfrench, am curious to know your bos set up. I've ordered a Warden and intend to swap my deville 160 onto it from my existing bike as the deville will apparently take a 650b wheel no problem. But if it doesn't, i'll get the new 650b specific deville. I love the deville, best fork i've ridden by a country mile, firm and planted when needed and soaks up the terrain equally when needed and not even a need to service in 2 years. I was wondering whether you're running a bos rear shock on your knolly, and how it works with the 4x4? void? kirk?

    cheers

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    any more warden teaser pics? would love to see it built up in black.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fatwheeled View Post
    Hi Cfrench, am curious to know your bos set up. I've ordered a Warden and intend to swap my deville 160 onto it from my existing bike as the deville will apparently take a 650b wheel no problem. But if it doesn't, i'll get the new 650b specific deville. I love the deville, best fork i've ridden by a country mile, firm and planted when needed and soaks up the terrain equally when needed and not even a need to service in 2 years. I was wondering whether you're running a bos rear shock on your knolly, and how it works with the 4x4? void? kirk?
    cheers
    Hi fatwheeled, I'm the one runnihg BOS, Frenchy has got Avy. Current set-up on the Chili is Idylle SC coil and Stoy. Both better than anything else I've used. Also got a Deville and used that on the old Endo and Chili. Both the Deville and the Idylle SC take 650b/Schwalbe HD 2.35 combination with a 6/7mm clearance approx. I prefer to run the Chili with the SC and I am keeping the Deville for the Warden. The SC has 36mm stations as opposed to 34mm on the Deville and is therefore stiffer and even more composed.

    The new 170mm Deville has an improved cartridge and more clearace for 650b wheels, as I understand. I am trying to find out if the 2014 forks also have a different offset as well to match 650b.

    For the Warden I'm considering the new Kirk shock to keep weight down. I have a CCDB air left over from my original Chili purchase which I will try out on the Warden, but I would not be surprised at all to find that the Kirk is better based on my experience of the Stoy vs CCDB air and coil.

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    Cheers Loamranger...i'm thinking kirk longer term, too.

  157. #157
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    I noticed that Noel's interview is posted on KnollyBikes.com: Knolly Bikes Blog» Blog Archive» Video Interview: Noel Buckley at Eurobike 2013. Any ETA when the WARDEN will be listed with the other bikes?
    "sounds like you need to find a better mechanic..." -- Calhoun

  158. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by TSC View Post
    I noticed that Noel's interview is posted on KnollyBikes.com: Knolly Bikes Blog» Blog Archive» Video Interview: Noel Buckley at Eurobike 2013. Any ETA when the WARDEN will be listed with the other bikes?
    2/3 weeks I was told one week ago. Colours orange, green, black, natural and maybe Britania blue.

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    Any word if Knolly will have any demos at the Outdoor Demo?

  160. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by TSC View Post
    I haven't jumped into all the physics behind rotational mass; but my understanding is that affects of rotational mass are are noticed when accelerating or decelerating the bike. Supposedly, from an article I read, that if you keep a steady speed then the rotational mass doesn't matter. If true, then you end up with the weight on the outside of the tire mattering the most; and mattering in techy terrain.

    The wheel weights I quoted are directly from the two manufacturers' websites. My assumption is that these are the weights without the tire, tape, etc. Unfortunately I'm not able to an apples-to-apples comparison on the tires to see if I'm right.

    Another way to look at it is that going from a 2.25 to a 2.35 in the same tire gains you .2" for a weight increase of 50g. (You are getting a wider tire too.) Going from a 26 to a 650b gains you 1" for 35g plus the increased rim & spoke weight. If you were doing the Enve rims then it's 24g for a total of 59g. That's 9g more for .8" more in diameter. Therefore any performance due to rotational mass will be negligible.

    Here's a sort-of example of what I'm talking about.

    Nobby Nic HS 411 (Evolution Line, Folding Bead)
    ETRTO
    Size
    Performance Compound PSI Weight
    Diameter (mm) Diameter (in.)
    57-559 26 x 2.25 TL Ready PaceStar 26-54 545 g 674.5 26.6
    57-584 27.5 x 2.25 TL Ready PaceStar 26-54 575 g
    699.5 27.6
    60-559 26 x 2.35 TL Ready PaceStar 23-50 595 g 680.5 26.8

    *The numbers in blue are calculated by averaging, taking the mean, comparing the values, & selecting tires whose average and mean were close (for Schwalbe tires). They are close but not more than that.

    Edit: Screwed around with the table trying to make it easier to read and for comparisons. (Just avoiding work.)

    If I'm right in the above quote about potential weight savings in the wheels; and the frame is 1/2 - 3/4 lbs lighter than the Chili's frame; and the Warden is designed for the same type of riding as the Chili; then you should be able to build a "Chili-like" Warden that is 1 to 2 pounds lighter than the Chili. Of course the Chili will have 10mm more travel.

    NOTE: one thing I overlooked in my above quote, when talking about rotational mass, is the gyroscopic effect. When turning at a high rate of speed bigger wheels will not want to turn as easily as smaller wheels. This can be good when trying to hold a line, but make high-speed cornering a bit harder. Personally, I don't know how much either will be noticed on a mountain bike.
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  161. #161
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    Come on, where are the rest of the numbers... I need to virtually test ride this b$tch. The first post has a sign that says to preorder the bike, give me the whole story so I can spend some money.

  162. #162
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    Does the rear end on the WarDen have room for the new Continental Trail King 2.4 ??

    Please say yes..
    video=youtube;][/video]...

  163. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMR View Post
    Come on, where are the rest of the numbers... I need to virtually test ride this b$tch. The first post has a sign that says to preorder the bike, give me the whole story so I can spend some money.
    My advice...don't get too overly excited. Maybe Noel isn't dead set on certain numbers and may change some things up a bit. I was one of the first generation Chilco orderers. Right before they changed fabrication. Waited Loooong time for bike (worth it BTW) This could be another situation, not as extreme obviously, where he is tweaking or changing certain things he could have noticed by someone trying a prototype out...

    Just been real quiet lately since the buzz came out. Been there before!

    But then again, WTF do I know!!

  164. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deerhill View Post
    Does the rear end on the WarDen have room for the new Continental Trail King 2.4 ??

    Please say yes..
    Knollys have LOTS of tire clearance. My Endo has a ton of room, so I would expect the Warden to be just fine in this area.
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  165. #165
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    My endo couldn't clear a conti trail king 2.4 at the chain stay....

  166. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by nmtim View Post
    My endo couldn't clear a conti trail king 2.4 at the chain stay....
    V1 or v2?

  167. #167
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    V2 protection casing on a flow ex

  168. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by F.N.G View Post
    My advice...don't get too overly excited. Maybe Noel isn't dead set on certain numbers and may change some things up a bit. I was one of the first generation Chilco orderers. Right before they changed fabrication. Waited Loooong time for bike (worth it BTW) This could be another situation, not as extreme obviously, where he is tweaking or changing certain things he could have noticed by someone trying a prototype out...

    Just been real quiet lately since the buzz came out. Been there before!

    But then again, WTF do I know!!
    Interesting...it could be the 650B/27.5 taking off so fast they want to ensure that have the right geometry relative to future potential 27.5 models.

  169. #169
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    Carbon offering i hope to catch up with the carbon line up of the other boutique frames.

  170. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by nmtim View Post
    My endo couldn't clear a conti trail king 2.4 at the chain stay....
    I used a RQ 2.4 without problem for a long time... no clear issues. I had a 2008 Endorphin, I don't know about the next version of the Endo..

  171. #171
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    Plenty of mud clearance, just none at the girth of the tire.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails knolly WARDEN-20130813_212056.jpg  


  172. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by nmtim View Post
    Plenty of mud clearance, just none at the girth of the tire.
    What tire?
    What size?
    What rim width?
    "sounds like you need to find a better mechanic..." -- Calhoun

  173. #173
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    Looks like 2.4 tk on flow ex?
    video=youtube;][/video]...

  174. #174
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    Ask and ye shall receive:



    As always, these numbers are subject to slight changes until full production is set for delivery. It should also be noted that the angle of the chainstay yoke has been softened for all models(Endo, Chil, Warden) using this configuration, to provide even more clearance at the tire bulge.

    Let the e-riding begin!

  175. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by nmtim View Post
    My endo couldn't clear a conti trail king 2.4 at the chain stay....

    already answered

  176. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty Bottoms View Post
    Ask and ye shall receive
    Thank you Dusty. What is the shock size? My apologies if it was already mentioned here.

  177. #177
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    Nice that the seat tube on the large is 18.5" versus 19" on the Chili and Endo. Might help a few people get into that 150mm dropper if they were on the border. Not that 1/2" is all that much, but still nice.

    I e-rode the bike this morning, it was fantastic.
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  178. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty Bottoms View Post
    Ask and ye shall receive:



    As always, these numbers are subject to slight changes until full production is set for delivery. It should also be noted that the angle of the chainstay yoke has been softened for all models(Endo, Chil, Warden) using this configuration, to provide even more clearance at the tire bulge.

    Let the e-riding begin!

    Hey Dusty,

    What was the A-C used to get the numbers shown above? 150 or 160mm fork?

    Super short head tube, no external HS cups....say hello to stem spacers.
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  179. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by qbert2000 View Post
    already answered
    Thanks Q! Sorry I overlooked that nmtim!

    I'm still curious about your rim inner width. I think too skinny of an inside diameter can make the tire balloon out, like a...

    "sounds like you need to find a better mechanic..." -- Calhoun

  180. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by bubba13 View Post
    Hey Dusty,

    What was the A-C used to get the numbers shown above? 150 or 160mm fork?

    Super short head tube, no external HS cups....say hello to stem spacers.

    I'm probably the best person to answer these questions:

    Firstly - please remember that this geometry is Subject To Change between now and when the frames are released in winter 2013 / 2014.

    Fork: based off of a 150mm Pike / Fox 34 style fork, but of course the frame can easily handle a 160mm version of this style of fork as well.

    Headtube length: This is the interesting part: you should not require any more stem spacers than what you would use on a Chiclotin or Endorphin frame. The reason the head tubes are shorter (and with internal headsets) is to raise the height of the LOWER part of the headtube to accommodate the larger 650B wheel diameter without making the front of the bike super tall. We're seeing a lot of 650B bikes reverse important trends in frame geometry of the past several years: the move towards shorter chain stay lengths and lower front ends (both things that Knolly excels at!) are being sacrificed (and hence handling as well) to accommodate 650B wheels at any cost. Our goal with the Warden is to keep the bike compact though there is a 30-35mm increase in wheel diameter. Even on an XL frame, a 30mm increase in front end height would be noticeable and would compromise both climbing (technical and fire road) and also descending. By changing the head tube style / size, tweaking frame geometry and doing some funky things to the suspension leverage layout our goal is to keep the bike as close to the nimbleness of a 26" bike as possible (though we can't eliminate the increase in angular momentum of the larger 650B wheels - that's just physics).

    To put this in perspective: the "fit relationship" between saddle, cranks and handle bar should remain fairly consistent throughout out model lineup regardless of frame model or wheel size.

    Cheers!
    Noel Buckley
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    Instead of PMs, please contact me here.

  181. #181
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    Wow, awesome spec

    Can't wait to demo..
    video=youtube;][/video]...

  182. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by knollybikes.com View Post
    ...Firstly - please remember that this geometry is Subject To Change between now and when the frames are released in winter 2013 / 2014.

    ...By changing the head tube style / size, tweaking frame geometry and doing some funky things to the suspension leverage layout our goal is to keep the bike as close to the nimbleness of a 26" bike as possible (though we can't eliminate the increase in angular momentum of the larger 650B wheels - that's just physics). ...
    Deserved smoke up your skirt: Another beautiful bike, Noel. The Four by 4 linkage is a great example of artistry and function coming together. Knolly bikes have the sexiest ass-ends of any bike out there!

    Question: Will the Warden perform more like the Chilcotin or more like the Endorphin (i.e. which suspension leverage curve is the most similar)?*

    *Please say Endorphin! I want an Endo or Endo-like bike and think I would notice the benefits of bigger tires--maintained momentum & improved "rollover-obstacle-ability"--more in the ups and flats. Besides, I don't need my Chili to go any faster. I can't keep up with it as it is. If you've already designed the Warden this way I will pretend you did it just for me. (I am a egocentric SOB; aren't I!)

    Apology: Life has taught me to keep pushing until change is impossible; and you stated that "this geometry is Subject To Change" so my "Please say Endo" comment was a feeble attempt to sway you towards my wants, if that is even necessary. I'm sure you will create a bike that is ideal for your target market.
    "sounds like you need to find a better mechanic..." -- Calhoun

  183. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by knollybikes.com View Post
    I'm probably the best person to answer these questions:

    Firstly - please remember that this geometry is Subject To Change between now and when the frames are released in winter 2013 / 2014.

    Fork: based off of a 150mm Pike / Fox 34 style fork, but of course the frame can easily handle a 160mm version of this style of fork as well.

    Headtube length: This is the interesting part: you should not require any more stem spacers than what you would use on a Chiclotin or Endorphin frame. The reason the head tubes are shorter (and with internal headsets) is to raise the height of the LOWER part of the headtube to accommodate the larger 650B wheel diameter without making the front of the bike super tall. We're seeing a lot of 650B bikes reverse important trends in frame geometry of the past several years: the move towards shorter chain stay lengths and lower front ends (both things that Knolly excels at!) are being sacrificed (and hence handling as well) to accommodate 650B wheels at any cost. Our goal with the Warden is to keep the bike compact though there is a 30-35mm increase in wheel diameter. Even on an XL frame, a 30mm increase in front end height would be noticeable and would compromise both climbing (technical and fire road) and also descending. By changing the head tube style / size, tweaking frame geometry and doing some funky things to the suspension leverage layout our goal is to keep the bike as close to the nimbleness of a 26" bike as possible (though we can't eliminate the increase in angular momentum of the larger 650B wheels - that's just physics).

    To put this in perspective: the "fit relationship" between saddle, cranks and handle bar should remain fairly consistent throughout out model lineup regardless of frame model or wheel size.

    Cheers!
    Thank you for answering my question Noel. That was an excellent explanation about the Warden's head tube length and how it relates to additional A-C and wheel diameter for a 650b wheel.

    Sorry about the stem spacer comment. I tend to need more bar rise than the average person for my height. (long torso/arms) I have tried to ride with sub 70mm stems and low rise bars, but it always feels like the bars are at my knees. Both my Chilcotin and Endorphin are set up with forks at 10mm more travel than the back, external lower cups, 20mm spacers, and 38mm rise/750mm wide riser bars. It certainly would not bother me if you decided to use the XL head tube on the Large Warden frame...

    Cheers, It is good to see you guys firing on all 8!
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  184. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by bubba13 View Post
    Thank you for answering my question Noel. That was an excellent explanation about the Warden's head tube length and how it relates to additional A-C and wheel diameter for a 650b wheel.

    Sorry about the stem spacer comment. I tend to need more bar rise than the average person for my height. (long torso/arms) I have tried to ride with sub 70mm stems and low rise bars, but it always feels like the bars are at my knees. Both my Chilcotin and Endorphin are set up with forks at 10mm more travel than the back, external lower cups, 20mm spacers, and 38mm rise/750mm wide riser bars. It certainly would not bother me if you decided to use the XL head tube on the Large Warden frame...

    Cheers, It is good to see you guys firing on all 8!
    Hey - you don't need to apologize to me! Your comments are totally valid and good for us to read. I know that the larger frame sizes have low headtubes relative to a lot of frames on the market, but we do this because it's a lot easier to add height to a handle bar than to remove height.

    For example, many of Raceface's new 35mm clamp bars are available in 10mm, 20mm, and 35mm rise - yeah! So hopefully you shouldn't need a whole ton of headset spacers to get the height / length that you need. We like to ensure that there are options for our riders.

    Cheers!
    Noel Buckley
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    Instead of PMs, please contact me here.

  185. #185
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    Are Knolly at Dirt Demo at Interbike?

  186. #186
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    Noel, I can't really tell from the pics I've seen, but please, please put water bottle cage bosses on the Warden....for Enduro. Seriously, if there are stages and races where full packs aren't necessary, most racers I know won't use em. Gotta have a place to put a bottle. Even for races where hydration packs are the call, it's nice to put some secret powders in a bottle to sip on throughout the day.

  187. #187
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    Secret powders, or powers? "How 'bout the power to kill a yak from 200 yards away...
    with mind bullets!"
    '04 Knolly VTach | '15 Knolly Podium | '16 Knolly Delirium | Knolly Warden

  188. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big B View Post
    Secret powders, or powers? "How 'bout the power to kill a yak from 200 yards away...
    with mind bullets!"
    Tenacious D - Wonderboy ( with lyrics ) - YouTube
    "sounds like you need to find a better mechanic..." -- Calhoun

  189. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by flowtron View Post
    Noel, I can't really tell from the pics I've seen, but please, please put water bottle cage bosses on the Warden....for Enduro. Seriously, if there are stages and races where full packs aren't necessary, most racers I know won't use em. Gotta have a place to put a bottle. Even for races where hydration packs are the call, it's nice to put some secret powders in a bottle to sip on throughout the day.
    The Warden will definitely have cage bosses. You can plan on the fitment within the front triangle to be similar(or perhaps slightly tighter depending on frame size) to the Chilcotin, since the tube diameters are similar. However, there is one prevailing issue having nothing to do with our frame design: bottle mounting with a reservoir air shock. More and more people are choosing these types of shocks, and on many frame designs on smaller sizes, the reservoir will hit your bottle during compression.

    I ride almost exclusively with a bottle instead of a pack. To me, it just feels better. So i've started my search for a position adjustable bottle mount that can slide up the downtube a bit. I posted something on the passion board about a month ago with limited results. I've even gone as far as emailing problem solvers and other small fabricators to drum up some interest in making an adjustable mount. We'll see what happens.

  190. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty Bottoms View Post
    The Warden will definitely have cage bosses. You can plan on the fitment within the front triangle to be similar(or perhaps slightly tighter depending on frame size) to the Chilcotin, since the tube diameters are similar. However, there is one prevailing issue having nothing to do with our frame design: bottle mounting with a reservoir air shock. More and more people are choosing these types of shocks, and on many frame designs on smaller sizes, the reservoir will hit your bottle during compression.

    I ride almost exclusively with a bottle instead of a pack. To me, it just feels better. So i've started my search for a position adjustable bottle mount that can slide up the downtube a bit. I posted something on the passion board about a month ago with limited results. I've even gone as far as emailing problem solvers and other small fabricators to drum up some interest in making an adjustable mount. We'll see what happens.
    i know topeak have made adjustable bottlecages, but they don't have slideable cages. but maybe they have something in their pipelines?

  191. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty Bottoms View Post
    The Warden will definitely have cage bosses. You can plan on the fitment within the front triangle to be similar(or perhaps slightly tighter depending on frame size) to the Chilcotin, since the tube diameters are similar. However, there is one prevailing issue having nothing to do with our frame design: bottle mounting with a reservoir air shock. More and more people are choosing these types of shocks, and on many frame designs on smaller sizes, the reservoir will hit your bottle during compression.

    I ride almost exclusively with a bottle instead of a pack. To me, it just feels better. So i've started my search for a position adjustable bottle mount that can slide up the downtube a bit. I posted something on the passion board about a month ago with limited results. I've even gone as far as emailing problem solvers and other small fabricators to drum up some interest in making an adjustable mount. We'll see what happens.
    Sweet. I've been doing more rides with just a bottle. It sure does feel good.
    On my endo, I have to use a side loading cage (and a smaller bottle)and I've found the Lezyne version works really well. I think it has a bit of adjustment, maybe a a cm or so.

    What about bosses on the dirty side of the downtube?

  192. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty Bottoms View Post
    The Warden will definitely have cage bosses. You can plan on the fitment within the front triangle to be similar(or perhaps slightly tighter depending on frame size) to the Chilcotin, since the tube diameters are similar. However, there is one prevailing issue having nothing to do with our frame design: bottle mounting with a reservoir air shock. More and more people are choosing these types of shocks, and on many frame designs on smaller sizes, the reservoir will hit your bottle during compression.

    I ride almost exclusively with a bottle instead of a pack. To me, it just feels better. So i've started my search for a position adjustable bottle mount that can slide up the downtube a bit. I posted something on the passion board about a month ago with limited results. I've even gone as far as emailing problem solvers and other small fabricators to drum up some interest in making an adjustable mount. We'll see what happens.
    I haven't seen these in person and given the Tri background I have no idea how durable this would be but check out: Aero Cage Optimizer
    Looks like it lets you offset the plates as needed and keeps them in place with a set screw.

    I know Problem Solvers is taking a look at options for you as well.

    This thing would be pretty enduro-riffic but getting behind the saddle might be problematic.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails knolly WARDEN-wc3102.jpg  

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    water

    Have a look at the showers pass solution.

    Introducing VelEau | Showers Pass

  194. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatwheeled View Post
    Have a look at the showers pass solution.

    Introducing VelEau | Showers Pass
    Hmmmm. Not quite my cup of tea, but if I was doing 100 miler it would be nice.

  195. #195
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    have you tried a wingnut pack? they sit lower onto the back and hips - I have the hyper 2.5 and it a great pack. On big rides I use a camelback but it always feels uncomfortable, especially restricting shoulder movement. You don't get this problem with a wingnut pack. The wingnut is made from waterproof sail material so is completely waterproof, too. The hyper 3 is a bit bigger if you need more space to cram in stuff.



    Wingnut Hyper 2.5 Hydration Pack Review - BikeRadar



    Wingnut Hyper 3 Backpack Review - BikeRadar

    Wingnut MPS Alpha Backpack Review - BikeRadar

    Wingnut Adventure Pack Review - BikeRadar

    Wingnut Gear » Products

  196. #196
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    have you tried a wingnut pack? they sit lower onto the back and hips - I have the hyper 2.5 and it a great pack. On big rides I use a camelback but it always feels uncomfortable, especially restricting shoulder movement. You don't get this problem with a wingnut pack. The wingnut is made from waterproof sail material so is completely waterproof, too. The hyper 3 is a bit bigger if you need more space to cram in stuff.



    Wingnut Hyper 2.5 Hydration Pack Review - BikeRadar



    Wingnut Hyper 3 Backpack Review - BikeRadar

    Wingnut MPS Alpha Backpack Review - BikeRadar

    Wingnut Adventure Pack Review - BikeRadar

    Wingnut Gear » Products

  197. #197
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    I ordered a Wingnut Pack on 17 May 2013 and got it 24 Sept 2013. Don't be in a rush!
    Last edited by vikb; 09-24-2013 at 09:17 PM.
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  198. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by knollybikes.com View Post
    To put this in perspective: the "fit relationship" between saddle, cranks and handle bar should remain fairly consistent throughout out model lineup regardless of frame model or wheel size.
    Remarkably so, when comparing stack/reach numbers (nice job keeping the rear center nice and short too!).

    That said, Bubba's not the only one that wouldn't mind seeing the head tube a bit longer. At 6' and with a ~31" saddle height (from center of BB), the 23" stack height of a large is going to put the bars way below the saddle. The seat tube is >2" longer on a large, shouldn't the head tube be longer as well?

    Obviously a dropper post will be used on a bike like this, but that doesn't mean I want a saddle:bar drop similar to a road bike when the saddle is in the up position.

    Spacers and riser bars help narrow the gap of course, but too much of either is going to look a lot more goofy than a ~5" head tube on a size large. The reach is nice and long on these bikes, encouraging the use of a short stem, but for all of their other wondrous qualities short stems actually exacerbate this problem. Even with a zero rise stem you still lose 4mm of height for every 10mm you drop in stem length (with a 66* HTA).

    Sorry for the dissertation, and I'm sure Noel has guys (even my height or taller) asking him to keep the front end as low as possible, but figured I'd throw it out there as a potential Warden customer who is a little concerned about the 4.1" head tube (w/ internal headset!) on a large.
    ''It seems like a bit of a trend, everyone trying to make things longer over the last couple of years" Sam Hill

  199. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by miles e View Post
    Remarkably so, when comparing stack/reach numbers (nice job keeping the rear center nice and short too!).

    That said, Bubba's not the only one that wouldn't mind seeing the head tube a bit longer. At 6' and with a ~31" saddle height (from center of BB), the 23" stack height of a large is going to put the bars way below the saddle. The seat tube is >2" longer on a large, shouldn't the head tube be longer as well?

    Obviously a dropper post will be used on a bike like this, but that doesn't mean I want a saddle:bar drop similar to a road bike when the saddle is in the up position.

    Spacers and riser bars help narrow the gap of course, but too much of either is going to look a lot more goofy than a ~5" head tube on a size large. The reach is nice and long on these bikes, encouraging the use of a short stem, but for all of their other wondrous qualities short stems actually exacerbate this problem. Even with a zero rise stem you still lose 4mm of height for every 10mm you drop in stem length (with a 66* HTA).

    Sorry for the dissertation, and I'm sure Noel has guys (even my height or taller) asking him to keep the front end as low as possible, but figured I'd throw it out there as a potential Warden customer who is a little concerned about the 4.1" head tube (w/ internal headset!) on a large.

    Hi Miles e:

    One thing to remember is that as I mentioned before, this is all subject to change over the next few months.

    That being said, please also remember that I'm close to 6'2" tall myself, so I understand your concerns. We also have several generation of frames now that I would say have a similar fit: the 2nd generation Delirium, 2nd generation Endorphin and the current Chilcotin are all based on Knolly's "newest, most progressive geometry" that we have developed over the years. We're continually tweaking this geometry (the Warden will be no exception...) and we do of course test all of the frame sizes. For example, we found that with the new Endorphin, we needed to make the head tube slightly longer on the size large frame compared to the Chilcotin, but the mediums could be much closer together. This was simply due to the different fork AC lengths and frame geometries.

    Finally, with the Warden: the geometry is listed with a 150mm fork: I'm sure there will be a lot of customers who are throwing on 160mm Pikes and such. That will (also) increase the front end height. If we were to make the head tube a lot taller, we would probably start to reduce the bike's climbing ability up things like steep switchbacks with 160mm forks. It's a very fine balancing act to match all of the technical requirements that a frame like this will need to be able to do.

    Cheers,
    Noel Buckley
    ------------------
    www.knollybikes.com

    Instead of PMs, please contact me here.

  200. #200
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    Count me in as another who at 6'4" wouldn't mind a bit more height on the XL head tube. I have about a 4" drop from my saddle to my hands on the 2013 Endorphin using 25mm of spacers, a 7* rise 70mm stem and Crank Bros riser bars with a 160mm fork. It's OK in this configuration, but I would prefer the option of getting my hands up a little higher without going to ridiculous spacer stacks. X-Fusion warns its consumers not to exceed 30mm of spacer between the headtube and stem for fear of steer-tube failure.

    I appreciate that Noel knows how all of these numbers relate to handling characteristics, so I only offer my 2 cents worth as, well, about 2 cents worth. If the head tube forces stacks of spacers, a riser stem and big riser bars and still doesn't get me closer to a 3" drop from saddle to hands, I may not be able to purchase the bike. (sad face) I certainly don't expect Noel to use crowd-sourcing to design a bike. Work your magic, Mr. Buckley!

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