This is how it ended- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    This is how it ended

    I figured it was the right time to post this thread. First off, let it be known what I am about to say in this post is 100% true and can be backed up by articles released in many bicycle magazines as well as hands on experience. So I will also state that what I am saying here is not made up and I am leaving out many thing more things that would have you as a person and a rider disgusted .

    Ironhorse is done. 100% . For those here who know who I am know this is true and I have not exaggerated this information at all. I kind of wish it was not true.

    I was there on the last day at IH. The inventory was all sold. The parts, frames, and pivot kits were sold to a liquidater. I was there, I helped pack up the trucks. All the hard work that many of us put in to this company to succeed by purchasing pivot kits, links, frames, decals etc etc all sold for a measley amount. With the help of others, I had helped provide enough frames and parts for more than five years after the DW link license expired. All sold and the online retailer has NOTHING. Ironhorse was ruined by an incompetent owner as well as shady business deals where the company as a whole lost money but the greedy ones made money.

    While at IH, I worked with up to 35 people to have each week people be let go for unnamed reasons. I had my health insurance contribution cut dramatically out of nowhere and it was not during an enrollment peroid. It was so someone could pocket more cash.. I wish IH went down because of the economy but it didn't. Yes of course there is cuts at any business during times but I would be OK with that as long as peoples family members were not on the payroll that never worked for us. I would be OK with that if inventory was not transferred to an online company at no cost. but it wasn't. My only thing was IH and the online retailer are owned by the same owners. The things I saw how bikes were being credited that were never paid for.

    I am a bicycle mechanic as well and i work for an IBD. I support IBD's not online retailers that don't care about the sport only to capitalize by illegal gains. The online retailer claims to have 100% customers service but in reality it was IH customer service who sent out all the parts. Any little complaint by an online customer putting pedals on the wrong way was covered by IH not the online retailer. As many claims that were put down b/c they are not valid, they were still shipped. We would be charged by the online retailer for shipping damage not UPS. When I saw a post here that " we hope to be your online retailer for bicycles" I was sick. I do understand getting a good price, how could you complain but when IH had IBD's and the online retailer was selling bikes for less than IH was paying for them you see my reaction. You should understand that these small IBD's are the bike industry not online. How about this one. I am an IBD I pay $1400 from IH at my costt price and then the online retailer has it for $1000. How could that be. Its b/c when product is free, you can sell it at any cost.

    Also, IH has there recall issues that are not known about b/c each time i tried to have a recall issued. I was ignored, almost lost my job. Here are some of the recalls that should be know about:

    IH Maverick Full Suspension frames from 2006-2008 will all break b/c of a weak brace.

    IH MKIII 2007 rear swingarms will all crack due to incorrect welding at the factory.

    Please help and call the CPSC if you had this issue. http://www.cpsc.gov/about/contact.html


    There is no Iron horse warranty on your bikes anymore. The online retailer may be able to break down some bikes to cover this up for a while but they have no pivots kits. They cannot order any frames from the factory anymore.

    I read in Outdoor magazine that working at bicycle company was the 4th most enjoying job except at IH.

    We had good people, we were bringing the brand back but greedy people did this to IH. From my understanding IH is bankrupt, they have no money, no nothing. There is no office. I had set it up to support DW bikes after the license was over but someone needed money and from what i know about the price of what it was sold for, it was chump change .

    I am not an angry employee but a person who believes this needs to be brought up to others to see how it is. I have a job that pays me better than IH so let that me known as well as I enjoy my job way more.

    There are so many things I could write but let me end off on this, I cannot be sued for this since it is 100% true. I have documentation to back up all of my claims.

    Cliff W. is the reason IH is not here anymore as well as the online retailer that has the "great deals". I am sure that will be over as well. There is no support for you and I apologize. All in All working at IH has helped me meet some really great people like Ska todd and some of you. I had my good times and working at a company like this has shown me who to work for and who not to.

    I just figured you guys should know the truth and for those who know me please contact me by PM and leave my name off of this thread.

    I am willing to answer any questions you have but if you have a warranty issue I recommend contacting that online retailer and see what speech they have for you already.

    The Poster: Wolvesinwolvesclothing was a 100% right in all his post that were removed.

    Its a shame someone wants to threaten lawsuits over the truth. Just remember if you want to sue, you have to go on the stand as well. I guess like father like son.

    Sell your horse or ride till its dead but from my stand point, I gave my bikes away as well as anything that had to do with IH. I am fine with my direction in life but I am sad for others like an employee who worked for that man for 26 years and got nothing, no appreciation. At one point years ago IH took there pension plan and spent it without the employers knowing it.

    Good luck and I hope this clears things up. I know the online retailer sponsors this thread and MTBR and moderators please contact me for confirmation of everything i have written. I can confirm everything and back it up. If this thread is removed, it is because MTBR wants to keep getting paid by a fraud online retailor. I hope this stays but if it doesn't I recommend getting a new bike as well as going to another forum due to the conflict of interests.
    Last edited by ihateu; 02-26-2009 at 07:51 PM.

  2. #2
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    That's probably why I don't get any help the last 6 times I called. That's just sad. I really love my bike. It's time to to leave.
    Relax...Take it slow...and let the goodtimes roll....-Stifler

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by pancitpalabok
    That's probably why I don't get any help the last 6 times I called. That's just sad. I really love my bike. It's time to to leave.
    I would love to help but as you see all the work we did was sold for nothing. All of us were just trying to be that Niche brand but since they went online to that retailer. It was only for themselves to make more money while honestly destroying others peoples lives. . I do feel bad for the riders as well as IH put alot of IBD's in bad situations some shops had to shut down b/c of this.

    The worst part was working for the company from Jan 08 till closing till Jan 09. IH officially shut down on Jan 31st and there was no relocation at all. with the economy going down and NY hit the worst with people losing jobs we had no choice but to look for jobs everyday until the day came.

  4. #4
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    So if "someone" bought up all the pivot kits...what are their plans with them? I mean I cant see them just tossing the kits out...do these people plan to sell them somewhere else other than the "online retailer" or did they buy them to just bury the whole lot in a field somewhere to truly kill the company? I have a brand new 6 Point and I seriously don't see anything happening to it anytime soon, but hell if I had a chance to buy a pivot kit I obviously would.
    ------------------------------------------------------------

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  5. #5

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    That's a question I'd like to know the answer to as well. I've also got a new 6point6 and wouldn't mind stocking up on some spares. If that online retailer didn't get the frames and parts then where are they? Maybe they'll start showing up on eBay soon?

    Sounds like the whole situation was pretty bad. Not all of ihateu's story makes sense or agree's completely with other things i've read and heard, but real life is like that sometimes.

  6. #6
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    Damn. Just damn. How do you take a successful brand and run it into the ground? I guess I'll ride my bike till it breaks and then invest in a new frame. My bike is less than a half a year old too.

    No wonder RS Cycle's website says "With news of a 10% to 20% increase in manufacturing costs for 2009 we urge our customers to take advantage of our lowest prices ever on 2007 and 2008 bikes while supplies last." Ha. Shady shady.

    Thanks for the information and I'm glad you found another job so soon. You still in the bike industry? Best of luck to you in the future.
    Gotta get up to get down.
    LMB

  7. #7
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    I still don't get how any of you bought into RS cycles scheme anyways? Sure you could get a bit of a deal but you had to know that something VERY fishy was going on.
    Thankfully it is out in the open though as my tongue is killing me from biting it so hard.
    Good riddance IH and RS cycles
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  8. #8
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    I am not sure who exactly purchased them but with all the low end stuff they had received as well as a bunch of stuff. They may not even know what they have and for them to figure out what they are may be hard.

    I hope that something comes out of this and you guys are helped out . I figured with all the rumors I would clear this up for you guys.

    I apologize and pm me if you have any questions.

  9. #9
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    What a shame. However, good riddance to RS, something always seemed "off" about that company

  10. #10
    GAME ON!
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    meh. i bought my frame on ebay and i'll probably do it again. when it's time for a new frame, i'll most likely buy a giant.
    RIP Adam Yauch

    "M.C. for what I AM and do, the A is for Adam and the lyrics; true"

  11. #11

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    Canceled my two IH Warrior 4.0 FS's today from RS. I will look towards comparable Ibex, Motobecane, or Mongoose from the Ibex, Bikesdirect, or Performance websites. Thanks for the information, this is why I came to this forum in the first place.

  12. #12
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    Thanks for posting this. I really hope this thread does not get pulled, if companies are acting in this manner I feel the public deserves to know!

  13. #13
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    Out of interest, where will a Mk III frame crack?
    Thanks.

  14. #14
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    ok ... it is not the first company with good products ruined by a bad management.

    So or so ... IH was gone without DW.
    Or anybody of you planed to stick with it even when they make completely other bikes.

    Lucky us, who got a nice and cheap bikes in the last few months ... hopefully there not gone to take apart soon An even then ... you still can by bearings or weld a broken frame. Just with the links is a little bit complex ... till we get the drawings for them somehow
    will be very happy, if anybody can share the technical documentation for the frames and links

  15. #15
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    Wow! Very interesting in deed. Friend of mine bought a 5.0 last summer and I almost bought one for me son but opted for the GT from Performance. All in all anyone that bought in the last few months still got one heck of a deal so don't get to hung up on IH going out. It's sad but these days an all to common event. It will be inter sting to see if someone buys the rights to the frames and simply re-label them under a different brand?

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by tailwaters
    Wow! Very interesting in deed. Friend of mine bought a 5.0 last summer and I almost bought one for me son but opted for the GT from Performance. All in all anyone that bought in the last few months still got one heck of a deal so don't get to hung up on IH going out. It's sad but these days an all to common event. It will be inter sting to see if someone buys the rights to the frames and simply re-label them under a different brand?
    I doubt that anyone will buy the rights and rebrand them because they really no longer have anything unique. They lost the DW-link and since then really haven't had a line-up worth noting.

  17. #17
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    who is RS?

  18. #18

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    Damn, I just bought MKIII a couple of months back. Wish I knew who bought the pivot. I would love to get my hands one one just in case.

    Hope whoever still sells them ships them to Singapore.

    Its a real pity, the MKIII with DW-Link is really a fantastic bike.

  19. #19
    wait...what?
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    ****, I just bought my 7POINT, and I was loving it...To know that IH has gone out of business troubles me....What am I going to do about bearings? Frame maintenance?

    Nothing...Cuz I can't do ****....

    So, I'm gonna ride it till it breaks, and keep it in a glass case till is rots, cuz IH is beast...and thats how they roll....

    MODS, KEEP THIS FORUM UP!!!

    --CaliforniaNicco

  20. #20

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    So what's the story with the Ellsworth license deal?

  21. #21
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    Everyone who is in a panic about bearings needs to remember that enduroforkseals.com still makes them and if I recall correctly, they were the OE supplier as well.

  22. #22
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    RS = Randall Scott. You don't get their spam?

    You can still get bearings through Enduro Bearings.

    Folks, if this is surprising to you, ya shoulda seen the writing on the wall. "Who Moved My Cheese?" Anyone? Time to start saving for something else when the Horse dies...myself included...Can't wait!
    Biker? I don't even know her.

  23. #23
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    And did IH only go out or all of WWCS? WWCS also makes the K2, Columbia, and <gasp> Jeep bikes.

  24. #24
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    So in other words... it would be a bad idea to order a MKIII from that certain retailer as they do not have any in stock? Damn...

  25. #25
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    $10 says RS Cycle doesn't even post up about this.

    They're already carrying Mongoose brand bikes which, while stepping up their game with the new Pinn'r bikes, RS Cycle will probably run Mongoose into the ground, too.

    Sad, but I've been calling this for over 6 months.

    Nepotism shut this company down. Family members hooking family members up, and then not keeping the business steady. Screw them for wrecking a good company, and for wrecking people's dreams of having their own bike shop, and for wrecking people's lives by taking away their livelihood, their income, and their happiness.

    ihateu, thank you so much for all of your Iron Horse support last year when I needed links, pivot bolts, stickers, etc. You ARE THE man, and whatever company you work for now, I will highly recommend people use you as their go-to guy. You are awesome!
    Meh.

  26. #26
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    Word from the UK

    For what it's worth, here's today's skinny from Dirt Magazine. I wouldn't get your panties in a wad just yet. Seperating Iron Horse from Jeep and K2 brands is a good move IMO. Hopefully some passionate people, maybe RSCycles, who knows, will pick them up and revive the brand like the folks at Yeti.

    IRON HORSE: WHAT’S THE STORY
    Posted on February 27, 2009 @ 4:28 PM

    The internet forums have been ablaze today with news of the demise of Iron Horse bikes, but there has been nothing official from the company itself. So we've done a bit of ringing around and this is what we have learnt. It appears that Iron Horse's parent company World Wide Cycle Supplies (a group that also includes Columbia bikes, Jeep bikes and K2 bikes) has gone bust. And it seems that those three companies, Columbia, Jeep and K2, have been sold to a new company possibly made up of former employees. Now Iron Horse itself seems to be in a bit of limbo. It is not sold as yet, but could be bought soon, maybe as early as next week. As we said, none of this information is official or confirmed, so things may change.

    We would also like to make it clear that for UK Iron Horse distributor, Jim Walker, it is business as usual, no need to panic.

    Late Edit: Before someone freaks out about my selling my Sunday, it's been up for sale long before any of this and is purely a financial move. Check the MKIII photo thread page 5 and you can see my latest purchase. It's too bad about IH as they really put out some great bikes the past few years. Even while losing the DW Link, I think they have enough of a following to recover and make a strong comeback once the economy stabilizes a bit.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prettym1k3
    ihateu, thank you so much for all of your Iron Horse support last year when I needed links, pivot bolts, stickers, etc. You ARE THE man, and whatever company you work for now, I will highly recommend people use you as their go-to guy. You are awesome!
    Damn Mike. Did you really need all this stuff for your bike? How long did you have it? I'm hoping mine will last a long time before I need to upgrade, and I'm hoping I don't have to replace this stuff on my 08 MKIII anytime soon or I'm screwed. I can live with having to change the bearings one day, cause those are at least still available (for now), but I hope that's it. How long do you think it will be before I have to replace the bearings or anything else?
    Gotta get up to get down.
    LMB

  28. #28
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    "The forums have been buzzing all day with rumours about the demise of mountain bike brand Iron Horse. We spoke to UK brand manager Martin Astley to get the truth.

    He told us that Iron Horse's parent company has gone bust, but assured us that the brand looks set to be sold to a new owner.

    Martin insisted that, contrary to internet gossip, warranties would be honoured and people with Iron Horse bikes would still be able to get replacement parts.

    He told us: "The truth is that World Wide Cycle Supply, the company that owns the Iron Horse brand, along with K2, Columbia Sportswear and Jeep Bikes, has gone bust. K2, Columbia and Jeep have been sold to a new company formed by Worldwide employees called East Coast Cycle Supply.

    "The Iron Horse brand will be sold to somebody – the deal is being done at the moment – so although people are saying Iron Horse has 'gone under' that's not the case at all. Iron Horse will continue, it'll just have a different owner. We don't know who it is yet, but we should know next week."

    Martin insisted Iron Horse owners had nothing to worry about, saying: "We (Iron Horse's UK importers Jim Walker) will continue to do warranties in the UK and we are planning to continue forward with Iron Horse. Whoever buys Iron Horse, we will continue to work with them.

    "We don't want Iron Horse customers to panic. We will continue to service their bikes and we still have parts. A lot of the stuff that's been said on forums isn't accurate. Hopefully we'll be able to make some kind of announcement next week."

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by BaeckerX1
    Damn Mike. Did you really need all this stuff for your bike? How long did you have it? I'm hoping mine will last a long time before I need to upgrade, and I'm hoping I don't have to replace this stuff on my 08 MKIII anytime soon or I'm screwed. I can live with having to change the bearings one day, cause those are at least still available (for now), but I hope that's it. How long do you think it will be before I have to replace the bearings or anything else?
    I wouldn't worry about bearings for any Iron Horse (or most brands for that matter). For $39 you can get a full kit from Enduro bearings: http://www.enduroforkseals.com/id55.html

    There's also a company online that sells after market hangers relatively cheap and they stock most newer IH hangers. Don't have the link handy, but Google it and you'll be golden.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prettym1k3
    $10 says RS Cycle doesn't even post up about this.

    They're already carrying Mongoose brand bikes which, while stepping up their game with the new Pinn'r bikes, RS Cycle will probably run Mongoose into the ground, too.
    I'm sure you already knew this. But the problem was IH and RS were owned by family members and this allowed RS to get the bikes at a discounted rate. Leading to RS undercutting anyone else who was trying to sell Iron Horse bikes.

    As long as Mongoose doesn't get into any type of deal like that with RS they will be fine. From what I've seen, the Mongoose bikes there are priced similar to what they are everywhere else. Ideally, I'd like to see Mongoose stop being sold at RS. RS is a company I would like to see fail. To say they are dishonest is an understatement.

    I hope Mongoose gets out of there in good shape. I have been impressed with that company and their bikes in general. I have been really enjoying my Khyber and I got it at a great (but fair) price! And it wasn't from an offer that is perpetually ending tomorrow

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by F1000Dale
    "The forums have been buzzing all day with rumours about the demise of mountain bike brand Iron Horse. We spoke to UK brand manager Martin Astley to get the truth.

    He told us that Iron Horse's parent company has gone bust, but assured us that the brand looks set to be sold to a new owner.

    Martin insisted that, contrary to internet gossip, warranties would be honoured and people with Iron Horse bikes would still be able to get replacement parts.

    He told us: "The truth is that World Wide Cycle Supply, the company that owns the Iron Horse brand, along with K2, Columbia Sportswear and Jeep Bikes, has gone bust. K2, Columbia and Jeep have been sold to a new company formed by Worldwide employees called East Coast Cycle Supply.

    "The Iron Horse brand will be sold to somebody – the deal is being done at the moment – so although people are saying Iron Horse has 'gone under' that's not the case at all. Iron Horse will continue, it'll just have a different owner. We don't know who it is yet, but we should know next week."

    Martin insisted Iron Horse owners had nothing to worry about, saying: "We (Iron Horse's UK importers Jim Walker) will continue to do warranties in the UK and we are planning to continue forward with Iron Horse. Whoever buys Iron Horse, we will continue to work with them.

    "We don't want Iron Horse customers to panic. We will continue to service their bikes and we still have parts. A lot of the stuff that's been said on forums isn't accurate. Hopefully we'll be able to make some kind of announcement next week."
    Spin Cycle dudes.

    The bottom line is the bottom line. Interested in buying in a business which will lose money for the next 5 years before it might be profitable?

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by BaeckerX1
    Damn Mike. Did you really need all this stuff for your bike? How long did you have it? I'm hoping mine will last a long time before I need to upgrade, and I'm hoping I don't have to replace this stuff on my 08 MKIII anytime soon or I'm screwed. I can live with having to change the bearings one day, cause those are at least still available (for now), but I hope that's it. How long do you think it will be before I have to replace the bearings or anything else?
    ihateyou helped me get parts for my 7point. Derailleur hangers, a pivot kit, head badges, stickers, the updated rear thru-axle, and the upper rocker links. I've been riding my MkIII hard for over 18 months now without any build quality issues. I haven't had any pivot issues, linkage issues, and I haven't even replaced the headset.

    And I beat the crap out of my MkIII.
    Meh.

  33. #33
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    Iron Horse branded Ellsworths? Just speculation...
    You guys wanna ride bikes?

  34. #34
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    From BikeRadar:

    Buyer sought for Iron Horse as parent company "goes bust"

    By James Costley-White


    The forums have been buzzing all day with rumours about the demise of mountain bike brand Iron Horse. We spoke to UK brand manager Martin Astley to get the truth.
    He told us that Iron Horse's parent company has gone bust, but assured us that the brand looks set to be sold to a new owner.

    Martin insisted that, contrary to internet gossip, warranties would be honoured and people with Iron Horse bikes would still be able to get replacement parts.

    He told us: "The truth is that World Wide Cycle Supply, the company that owns the Iron Horse brand, along with K2, Columbia Sportswear and Jeep Bikes, has gone bust. K2, Columbia and Jeep have been sold to a new company formed by Worldwide employees called East Coast Cycle Supply.

    "The Iron Horse brand will be sold to somebody – the deal is being done at the moment – so although people are saying Iron Horse has 'gone under' that's not the case at all. Iron Horse will continue, it'll just have a different owner. We don't know who it is yet, but we should know next week."

    Martin insisted Iron Horse owners had nothing to worry about, saying: "We (Iron Horse's UK importers Jim Walker) will continue to do warranties in the UK and we are planning to continue forward with Iron Horse. Whoever buys Iron Horse, we will continue to work with them.

    "We don't want Iron Horse customers to panic. We will continue to service their bikes and we still have parts. A lot of the stuff that's been said on forums isn't accurate. Hopefully we'll be able to make some kind of announcement next week."
    Last edited by SCUBAPRO; 02-27-2009 at 02:11 PM.
    "The best you've ridden is the best you know" - Paul Thede, Race Tech

  35. #35
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    direct link

    Link from bike Radar. About Iron Horse status

  36. #36
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    gee, i wonder which thread the 434 people in this forum are reading?

    i bought my mkIII when CarlE and skatodd were regulars in this forum. honestly, their support for IH's customers led me to purchase an IH (albeit from RS). its truly disappointing to see where we're at now. a lesson learned, for myself and hopefully for RS.

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    i originally contacted rs regarding a mongoose pinn'r to check stock, and later decided to go with the ih 6.6. can't beat the spec. on an '08 for that price from rs. i read the thread here on mtbr regarding ih closing its doors so i called rs to see if i was about to order an "obsolete" bike. i know it's still a great bike, and the components couldn't be better, but the thought of spending a lot of $$$ on a bike that may never get a possible warranty issue sorted was too much. the cust. service rep. at rs whose name begins with N said no, they just moved offices and that a couple people have odd warranty issues that are almost resolved. sounded weak, so i called the contact # on the ih website. they had an automated operator that never mentioned iron horse, worlwide or any business name, just a directory. i pressed some random # to get anyone. some guy answered who sounded real sketchy. i asked if this was iron horse and he said yes, but told me that i had to use their website for any questions. i know it is subjective, but he sounded "weirded out." i decided right then and there that i would look elsewhere. quite a shame because that bike had a dream build for $2k. well, my giant reign x is on the way to help me get over my sorrow.

  38. #38
    Jersey Hucker
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    I have a yakuza that CarlE helped me out with and absolutely love it. My dad has a MKIII and we've always liked Ironhorse for their quality builds and competitive pricing. Shame to see such a great company killed by greedy higher ups. Hopefully IH returns stronger and owned by people who really get what mountain biking is about.

  39. #39

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    I knew a couple of their guys over the years that got caught up in the mix. Sorry to see it all gone.

  40. #40
    HTFU and Ride
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    what is sam hill going to ride now?

    edit: nm, Demo 8 for specialized...can you say unbeatable?
    Last edited by coachjon; 02-27-2009 at 07:17 PM.
    Winter is coming.

  41. #41
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    I haven't been really following anything relating to IH recently, so this is a HUGE shock to me. it does raise the question, however, perhaps Sam Hill read the writing on the wall and decided to hop over to Specialized because of it? I can't say I'd be surprised either way, since even if you're doing good, a change of pace now and then is always a good idea, but if he made the switch because of this I wouldn't be too terribly shocked either
    Quote Originally Posted by teamdicky View Post
    My butthole would pucker and invert until I was inside-out before I got to the bottom.

  42. #42
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    unbeatable, possibly, but I can't say with any degree of accuracy that many people are concerned with how world cup riders are going to be at the moment. not with this kind of stuff happening
    Quote Originally Posted by teamdicky View Post
    My butthole would pucker and invert until I was inside-out before I got to the bottom.

  43. #43
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    well i still have faith in iron horse! change the management! make a new line up of bikes with the ict suspension design! good people,good products,good customer service, and a demand for the product i see a come back in late 2009 early 2010!

    lets say they put out the brand new bikes in 2010 and there sikk! people are going to buy and the iron horse we all know and love with live on and be stronger than ever!

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    well i can honestly say my switch to evil has nothing to do with this, merely i want to ride a revolt and todds been a great dude over the years so im gonna support them where i can

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    Well I have and 06 mkiii and an 07 yakuza r and I beat the living daylights out of them. Both were pretty good buys and I feel I got my value out of them and I will ride them until they are toast! I have recently picked up a Titus el guapo to fill the void in the stable and I feel even better that I did that. I felt good about supporting my LBS when I bought my mkii but they have made more money on me in service than on the bike so I don't feel as bad about losing ironhorse. Iron horse really took a big dump on there vendors and they deserve to be gone for good! I rode my mkiii today and I had a blast and I will continue to ride it as a back up bike to the guapo. Hopefully parts will remain somewhat available, thats my only concern. Oh well, pay double for a Ibis mojo or a pivot to have the DW link magic!

  46. #46
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    Wow, very sad to be reading all this. A couple of friends bought 7 Point at really great prices from RS but I personally didn't suspect anything. Guess the prices did not include warranty (but possibly still good deals - depending on if the frames break or not).

    For everyone waiting for someone to pick up the brand and the obligations - dudes, wake up! Where were you in 2008? Nobody will do business anymore on shaky ground, and you don't have to be a bike mechanic to know that this is a losing business. Stock up on some bearings, ride your bike to extinction, and enjoy it!!

    I personally don't own an IH but the value for money is hard to beat.

    This just goes to show how important it is to support the local bike shop. I sometimes forget that when I find a pair of gloves that are $10 cheaper online, but I'll try to remember in the future. Besides, since I don't even know how to bleed brakes the LBS is still making good money on me. I hope none in my area were too dependent on the IH business (doesn't sound like they were making much money on it anyway).

  47. #47
    Fragglepuss The Chaste
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    It's been a bit amusing reading all of this, and a bit sad at the same time. Kind of sucks about ihateu's situation and it seems like there were some decent people at Iron Horse who cared about the brand and their customers which is saying a lot these days.

    I keep seeing Mongoose being dragged into this discussion, both in this thread and a couple others. Not quite certain the correlation other than RSCycles now carries them online. Just like JensonUSA and a few others have for well over a year prior to RSCycles picking them up. Keep in mind, the Mongoose brand was and may still be sold in department stores so they're being picked up by every online dealer out there should really be no surprise. And in my opinion, comparing the Mongoose brand to Iron Horse doesn't make much sense.

    Anyway, I've purchased a couple of Iron Horse's from RSCycles over the past several months. The latest being a small MKIII for my girlfriend two weeks ago. Like with any online dealer you have to expect certain things. Or more matter-o-factly, not expect certain things when it comes to warranties, etc. If you go and purchase anything online, you shouldn't expect much other than you'll need to do a fair amount of footwork yourself should you run into an issue.

    I've spoken to a couple of guys at RSCycles and have to say I was a bit shocked at how knowlegeable they were. This wasn't one of those shops who hire some kids right out of high school who can barely change a tube, let alone discuss geometry, spec's, etc. The last guy I spoke with during the MKIII purchase was even familiar and participated in my state's race series.

    I'm not here to say anything about their business practices as far as the acquisition of Iron Horse is concerned, but on a purely customer level, they have been spot on and up front with everything. No surprise, the people on this site who have a complaint are those who never purchased anything from them and probably never had any intention to do so anyway whether it be an Iron Horse or a Mongoose.

    I haven't found any off the wall, grandiose claims on RSCycles website other than they're selling great DW Link bikes at almost half off retail. If your bearings go out, buy a set off of Enduro's website for $40. If you bend your hanger, use the free spare hanger RSCycles sends along with the bike and if you bend that one, get on derailleurhangers.com and buy a new one for $10. If your frame breaks, try to warranty it through them and if that's not possible try a certified, high-end machine shop who can TIG weld and see what they can do. It'll probably be cheaper in the long run and you'll get your bike back in a couple days, rather than several weeks or months.

    Anyone complaining about a complete 5in travel DW Link bike spec'd with X9 or XT components under $2K is high.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by slcrockymountainrider
    It's been a bit amusing reading all of this, and a bit sad at the same time. Kind of sucks about ihateu's situation and it seems like there were some decent people at Iron Horse who cared about the brand and their customers which is saying a lot these days.

    I keep seeing Mongoose being dragged into this discussion, both in this thread and a couple others. Not quite certain the correlation other than RSCycles now carries them online. Just like JensonUSA and a few others have for well over a year prior to RSCycles picking them up. Keep in mind, the Mongoose brand was and may still be sold in department stores so they're being picked up by every online dealer out there should really be no surprise. And in my opinion, comparing the Mongoose brand to Iron Horse doesn't make much sense.

    Anyway, I've purchased a couple of Iron Horse's from RSCycles over the past several months. The latest being a small MKIII for my girlfriend two weeks ago. Like with any online dealer you have to expect certain things. Or more matter-o-factly, not expect certain things when it comes to warranties, etc. If you go and purchase anything online, you shouldn't expect much other than you'll need to do a fair amount of footwork yourself should you run into an issue.

    I've spoken to a couple of guys at RSCycles and have to say I was a bit shocked at how knowlegeable they were. This wasn't one of those shops who hire some kids right out of high school who can barely change a tube, let alone discuss geometry, spec's, etc. The last guy I spoke with during the MKIII purchase was even familiar and participated in my state's race series.

    I'm not here to say anything about their business practices as far as the acquisition of Iron Horse is concerned, but on a purely customer level, they have been spot on and up front with everything. No surprise, the people on this site who have a complaint are those who never purchased anything from them and probably never had any intention to do so anyway whether it be an Iron Horse or a Mongoose.

    I haven't found any off the wall, grandiose claims on RSCycles website other than they're selling great DW Link bikes at almost half off retail. If your bearings go out, buy a set off of Enduro's website for $40. If you bend your hanger, use the free spare hanger RSCycles sends along with the bike and if you bend that one, get on derailleurhangers.com and buy a new one for $10. If your frame breaks, try to warranty it through them and if that's not possible try a certified, high-end machine shop who can TIG weld and see what they can do. It'll probably be cheaper in the long run and you'll get your bike back in a couple days, rather than several weeks or months.

    Anyone complaining about a complete 5in travel DW Link bike spec'd with X9 or XT components under $2K is high.
    Well mongoose is now owned by the same company that owns GT and cannondale and there are two distinct lines. A wal-mart and dept store line and a Pro line that is a vailable either in a LBS or Online bike store. I own both and the quality is simliar, maybe slightly better in Mongoose. All IH brought the party was Dw-link IMO, otherwise they are sub par. Not sure how any of thats related though....

    Glad you had a good experience with RS. I don't know much about the employees, but I'm willing to bet they are good people just trying to earn a living who are biking enthusiasts, just like you'd find at a local bike store. I have no problem with that at all. My problem is the owner and the shady business deals. I don't need to go over them, they are all over this site and you can read about them.

    I can't speak to there after sale service, but I don't think that is the issue either, again the shady business deals....

    As to warranties for online sales in general. I've had several issues with other online sales and many of them are as painless as a warranty issue at the LBS some even more so. I expect the same now for all online sales. So if I found out RS was making it a hassle, I would not buy from them. Again i have no experience with that though...

    The whole problem is that RS is selling those bikes at an unfair price due to a shady business deal. I'm not "high" and complaining about a xt bike for under 2 grand. I am complaining about an xt bike under 2 grand for sale because of a dishonest practice. One that hurt many LBS. If you are ok with that then thats a personal decision that you will have to make. I, personally, am not ok with it and decided to buy my bike used, rather than from them. I see it similar to buying a bike that is obviously stolen because you can get a great deal on it.

  49. #49
    U sayin' Bolt ?
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    Thanks !!

    Big THANKS to ihateu, wolfnsheepsclothing and to CarlE
    Your honesty exemplifies what life and these simple forums are all about .. TRUTH
    THANKS for posting
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  50. #50
    GAME ON!
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    if iron horse, and subsequently, world wide cycle supply had a deal in place with ellsworth for ICT-equipped bikes, would that deal transfer over to new ownership? or was that all just to fool us into thinking they were doing ok in terms of losing dw-link?

    also, nice sig knutso.
    RIP Adam Yauch

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  51. #51

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    "Just the facts here, trust the newbie on this one"

    World wide cycle was in serious debt from too many bad deals over the last few years and it caught up with them. Bad management. From the business perspective, there is a very small profit margin in the bike manufacturing biz and lots of competition.

    Dw-link & Sam Hill wanted major coin to continue their relationship with wwcs. They had to start cutting back. Also, too many IBD’s over committed on forecasting the bikes they could sell and left world wide sitting on huge inventories which killed their bottom line. The IBD business was actually only a small portion of there business. The bikes sold in major outlets is what kept them afloat.

    They were excited about their new relationship with Ellsworth, and the new designs they were testing.

    They had some talented people in the organization. Unfortunately, the passion they had for biking could not keep this business going.

    Sound familiar in today’s economic situation???

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by spike834
    "Just the facts here, trust the newbie on this one"

    World wide cycle was in serious debt from too many bad deals over the last few years and it caught up with them. Bad management. From the business perspective, there is a very small profit margin in the bike manufacturing biz and lots of competition.

    Dw-link & Sam Hill wanted major coin to continue their relationship with wwcs. They had to start cutting back. Also, too many IBD’s over committed on forecasting the bikes they could sell and left world wide sitting on huge inventories which killed their bottom line. The IBD business was actually only a small portion of there business. The bikes sold in major outlets is what kept them afloat.

    They were excited about their new relationship with Ellsworth, and the new designs they were testing.

    They had some talented people in the organization. Unfortunately, the passion they had for biking could not keep this business going.

    Sound familiar in today’s economic situation???

    I'm not sure I agree with this. I tend to think that there is more to it that bad business decisions, though they no doubt played a part.

    While I'm sure Sam Hill and DW wanted major coin to continue the relationship, they were absolutely worth it to the company. I can't speak to the influence Hill had but he seems to be really hyped up around here and I'm sure he sold some bikes by riding for them. I never cared about what the pro riders were doing so it was lost on me personally. As far as I am concerned, DW put IH on the map.

    It just seemed like they were happy with that. They never made the next step. The next step could have been designing a successful linkage that didn't require a payment to DW. Maybe to start making top quality frames to compete with the best in the business. They did neither. The rode those horses(no pun intended) until they died and were left with nothing. Meanwhile there were hints of shady dealings that would leak to the public. Such as claiming DW designed a single pivot bike for them when he didn't, only selling through RS, which happens to be a relation.

    I can't speak to inventory levels requested by online bike dealers but I'm not sure thats the issue... THEY HAD DW LINK. Make an average to above average quality frame and it sells itself. It would sell in any bike shop alongside the best from Trek, Specialized, cannondale etc. I'm sure how to manage inventories is available to anyone who wants to find out from other industry insiders. I just have to believe there is much much more to it than a few bad business decisions..

  53. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by dascro
    As far as I am concerned, DW put IH on the map.

    Meanwhile there were hints of shady dealings that would leak to the public. Such as claiming DW designed a single pivot bike for them when he didn't, only selling through RS, which happens to be a relation.

    I can't speak to inventory levels requested by online bike dealers but I'm not sure thats the issue... THEY HAD DW LINK. Make an average to above average quality frame and it sells itself. It would sell in any bike shop alongside the best from Trek, Specialized, cannondale etc. I'm sure how to manage inventories is available to anyone who wants to find out from other industry insiders. I just have to believe there is much much more to it than a few bad business decisions..
    You have to understand that IH was not the key business of world wide. The company is World Wide Cycle supply, not Iron Horse. They made bikes under Jeep, Columbia, K2 and others names. Iron Horse brand could not make up or sustain the bad deals for the overall company.

  54. #54
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    The reality here is no one knows what exactly happened to WWC but I love the e-speculation as to why the parent company has failed. The OP only knows (or has stated) what happened to Ironhorse and that they liquidated product. He also insinuated that the owners pilfered the business of money. That's a pretty bold statement with no proof given.
    I have yet to read any earnings reports on WWC and no one has posted revenue figures for the Ironhorse division. I haven't seen a balance sheet, Has anybody else? Has anybody posted their orders vs. stock info? NO.

  55. #55
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    I have a 07 IH Maverick 3.0. I like it alot. I just hope that IH will continue on. Perhaps under a new management.

  56. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by wormvine
    The reality here is no one knows what exactly happened to WWC but I love the e-speculation as to why the parent company has failed. The OP only knows (or has stated) what happened to Ironhorse and that they liquidated product. He also insinuated that the owners pilfered the business of money. That's a pretty bold statement with no proof given.
    I have yet to read any earnings reports on WWC and no one has posted revenue figures for the Ironhorse division. I haven't seen a balance sheet, Has anybody else? Has anybody posted their orders vs. stock info? NO.
    The people that ran IH are the same people with WWC. When WWC goes, so does the entire company.

  57. #57
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    If you intended to sell the company why would you sell of all the inventory first?
    What would the buyer expect to get? The name ? The building?

    Would you buy this company and have to start up with no inventory?
    I suppose you could and make even a better bike but at that point I would want to start up under a new name.

    I looked at buying an IH bike a few years back. The welds were sloppy looking , there was much dirt under the paint and the rear was way flexy. It was at a great price point though....
    Best of luck to the former employees. Sad times.

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by spike834
    "Just the facts here, trust the newbie on this one"

    World wide cycle was in serious debt from too many bad deals over the last few years and it caught up with them. Bad management. From the business perspective, there is a very small profit margin in the bike manufacturing biz and lots of competition.

    Dw-link & Sam Hill wanted major coin to continue their relationship with wwcs. They had to start cutting back. Also, too many IBD’s over committed on forecasting the bikes they could sell and left world wide sitting on huge inventories which killed their bottom line. The IBD business was actually only a small portion of there business. The bikes sold in major outlets is what kept them afloat.

    They were excited about their new relationship with Ellsworth, and the new designs they were testing.

    They had some talented people in the organization. Unfortunately, the passion they had for biking could not keep this business going.

    Sound familiar in today’s economic situation???
    I'm not sure where you are getting your information, but the suggestion that "Dw-link wanted major coin to continue their relationship with wwcs." could not be further from the truth.

    I ended the dw-link relationship with the Iron Horse brand. There was never a point in time where Iron Horse had the ability to end any relationship, and quite to the contrary, their hope was to continue the relationship. As it stands today, Iron Horse stopped paying dw-link in early 2008 (although they continued to sell bikes). It has become a pretty sad situation and it has forced some actions that I know my company would rather not be a part of. Oh well, I chock it up to learning experience and move on. I just hope that Iron Horse can make good on their contract obligations but I am not losing sleep over it any more. I made peace with that back in 2007.
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  59. #59
    _dw
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    Quote Originally Posted by spike834
    You have to understand that IH was not the key business of world wide. The company is World Wide Cycle supply, not Iron Horse. They made bikes under Jeep, Columbia, K2 and others names. Iron Horse brand could not make up or sustain the bad deals for the overall company.
    What is your name?

    I was personally part of the negotiations and planning that went into acquiring the K2, Jeep, and Columbia licenses. I personally designed bikes for all three of these brands. The K2, Columbia, and Jeep brand licenses (along with TourDeFrance) were all secured in great part due to the success of the Iron Horse brand in 2005, specifically citing the strength of the Iron Horse brand, the dw-link suspension license, the engineering capabilities brought to the table by yours truly, and Stew's contacts with big box stores. These were Stew Barnett's major pitches in every negotiation. I was there, I was the one who created renderings and new products to pitch to these perspective brands. There was a great team of people who backed this up with hard work. Todd Seplavy, Tom Trentanove, Tom Barile, MJ Sureau, Travis Youman, Brad Accatella, the list goes on. These people bled Iron Horse yellow and worked incredible hours and put in great effort to help the brand succeed.

    The Iron Horse name, and the success of the dw-link suspension and associated frames were directly and in a large part (but not solely) responsible for growing the WWCS brand.

    It is what it is.
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  60. #60

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    Wow its too bad that Iron Horse hasn't paid dw yet. Things are looking very **** right now. I hope they pay up as soon as they can. The reason I bought MKIII was because of DW-link.

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by fermenter
    What would the buyer expect to get? The name ? The building?
    The name. An established brand name is worth money. Plenty of companies changed hands.

    If anything you do not want to pay for any old inventory.

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by dascro
    Everyone who is in a panic about bearings needs to remember that enduroforkseals.com still makes them and if I recall correctly, they were the OE supplier as well.
    And what about the rear supension parts, (i am not os literate on mechanics, so I dont kknow the name of all the parts)

    Maybe someone could post a picture or drawiung explaining.

    I for myself feel a bit worried, just bought an incredible 7.3 some months ago, and I was really really considering also an MKIII 08 (if RS lowers the 08 prices then Ill go for it) but I don´t know if I should buy some extra rear suspension kit, and how much would that cost normally....

  63. #63
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    New question here.

    Quote Originally Posted by _dw
    What is your name?

    I was personally part of the negotiations and planning that went into acquiring the K2, Jeep, and Columbia licenses. I personally designed bikes for all three of these brands. The K2, Columbia, and Jeep brand licenses (along with TourDeFrance) were all secured in great part due to the success of the Iron Horse brand in 2005, specifically citing the strength of the Iron Horse brand, the dw-link suspension license, the engineering capabilities brought to the table by yours truly, and Stew's contacts with big box stores. These were Stew Barnett's major pitches in every negotiation. I was there, I was the one who created renderings and new products to pitch to these perspective brands. There was a great team of people who backed this up with hard work. Todd Seplavy, Tom Trentanove, Tom Barile, MJ Sureau, Travis Youman, Brad Accatella, the list goes on. These people bled Iron Horse yellow and worked incredible hours and put in great effort to help the brand succeed.

    The Iron Horse name, and the success of the dw-link suspension and associated frames were directly and in a large part (but not solely) responsible for growing the WWCS brand.

    It is what it is.
    Dw , How would Sunday owners such as myself be avail to get parts such as pivots ect.. ?

  64. #64
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    why is everyone so worried about pivots? has anyone ever bent or damaged a pivot bad enuff for it to need replacing? we already know we can get bearings from enduroforkseals.
    i had my old seven point for 3 years and i never once had a problem with bearing or pivots. only thing i would be worried about is breaking your frame. and i hear the rear triangle on the 07 mk is prone to cracking. but as long as rscycle has stock we should be fine and they might even warrantee stuff out after they run out of parts.

    Ive heard of some other name brands that have true lifetime warrantees on there frames living up to that. i saw a guy with an older trek duel suspension frame from the mid 90's with a cracked tube and of course there not going to have his part in stock...so they just sent him a brand new 08 fuel EX 7 frame. wow! now thats customer service!

  65. #65
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    Iron Horse

    Quote Originally Posted by _dw
    What is your name?

    I was personally part of the negotiations and planning that went into acquiring the K2, Jeep, and Columbia licenses. I personally designed bikes for all three of these brands. The K2, Columbia, and Jeep brand licenses (along with TourDeFrance) were all secured in great part due to the success of the Iron Horse brand in 2005, specifically citing the strength of the Iron Horse brand, the dw-link suspension license, the engineering capabilities brought to the table by yours truly, and Stew's contacts with big box stores. These were Stew Barnett's major pitches in every negotiation. I was there, I was the one who created renderings and new products to pitch to these perspective brands. There was a great team of people who backed this up with hard work. Todd Seplavy, Tom Trentanove, Tom Barile, MJ Sureau, Travis Youman, Brad Accatella, the list goes on. These people bled Iron Horse yellow and worked incredible hours and put in great effort to help the brand succeed.

    The Iron Horse name, and the success of the dw-link suspension and associated frames were directly and in a large part (but not solely) responsible for growing the WWCS brand.

    It is what it is.
    I can’t help but wonder who Spike 834 is and what this poster’s angle is. In my opinion, to make the claim that Iron Horse was not the key business of Worldwide Cycle Supply is ignorant, at best, or at worst is an attempt to deflect attention away from the real issues that brought down Iron Horse. Interesting…

    Quite frankly, if it was not for your DW-Link suspension, Iron Horse would never have had the ability to pick up names like K2, Columbia, Jeep, etc. I was not aware that Iron Horse wasn’t meeting its contractual obligations with respect to its DW-Link license but it certainly isn’t surprising to hear this in the context of the following:

    • Over the course of several years, RSCycle, Performance, and other internet bike retailers began discounting Iron Horse bikes earlier and earlier in the year, every year…this suggests to me that these online retailers had problems selling their Iron Horse inventory at the regular prices they started selling them at.
    • Eventually, RSCycle began selling Iron Horse bikes at what anyone who is an IH IBD can see is close to or below their cost, very early in the season…this suggests to me that Iron Horse was having problems selling their inventory to anyone at their regular prices and began to sell them to internet dealers at a discount to reduce inventory costs.
    • In July 2008 Iron Horse announces it is pulling its line from IBD’s in favor of selling exclusively through RSCycle…http://www.bicycleretailer.com/news/...tail/1533.html
    • As a result of the above story multiple posters, on multiple forums begin to post that the reason IH will exclusively sell its bikes through RSCycle is actually that the president of RSCycle is Randall Weidberg, the son of IH CEO Cliff Weidberg. A few days later, a poster on this forum as good as proves the relationship with some good internet detective work in the following thread: http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.ph...light=weidberg
    • In August 2008 a follow up story in BRAIN to the one linked above addresses the relationship between RSCycle and Iron Horse. In the story IH “CEO” Cliff Weidberg gives an answer worthy of a lawyer to dispel rumors that his son, Randall Weidberg, is the president of RSCycle. In the context of what was uncovered in the thread linked above and what is quite frankly widely known in the industry, the attempts to disprove the “rumors” of the relationship are quite comical. Also included in the story is confirmation that there were at least several IBD’s that had a problem with competing against internet retailers for IH sales, thus leading them to ditch Iron Horse. http://www.bicycleretailer.com/news/...tail/1652.html
    • Throughout 2008 and early 2009 many Iron Horse employees are let go, fired, or leave – many with a bad taste in their mouth. See multiple posts on this and other forums for confirmation
    • Throughout the second half of 2008 RSCycle is selling Iron Horse bikes at what anyone in the industry can see is near or below the Iron Horse cost.
    • In Early 2009 Iron Horse and their parent company, WWCS are widely reported to be falling apart. The rumors turn out to be true: http://www.bikeradar.com/news/articl...oes-bust-20613


    Apparently, someone thinks the above info is worth threatening a slander lawsuit over because it is “not public” and “false”. This begs the question, is there such a thing is private/privileged, false information? “Me thinketh thou doth protest too much”.

    However, as is seen above anyone with a computer and a little general business knowledge can use public information to come to a conclusion that the inability of RSCycle and other internet Iron Horse dealers to sell Iron Horse bikes near MAP or MSRP harmed the Iron Horse IBD network and hurt Iron Horse as a result. Those IBD’s that didn’t drop Iron Horse likely couldn’t sell what they had without major markdowns. Over time, it’s logical to say that this contributed heavily to Iron Horse unloading its inventory through RSCycle at or below their cost, cutting off their IBD network, and having to terminate many of those who used to serve their IBD’s.

    Instead, Iron Horse and/or their schills seem to be attributing their downfall to current economic conditions but it’s plain to see that their problems were developing over a long period of time, well before the economy turned down. In fact, regardless of the state of the economy, if I were a lender and Iron Horse came to me to finance their 2009 lineup and I was able to determine through an examination of their books and/or through other research that a large percentage of their business in 2007 and 2008 was to sell their bikes to a company who is run by a family member, at or below their cost, I do believe I would turn down that opportunity. Think about that for a minute and then ask yourself, would you lend them the money either? My guess is you would not and I doubt anyone else would either. With no new inventory to sell and no more cash to pay creditors the only logical next step is chapter 7 liquidation. I don’t know if Iron Horse went this route but I would guess that if they did its public record since, correct me if I am wrong, I believe bankruptcies records are public just like other civil and criminal court records.

    In the end, this appears to me to be a classic example of bad management causing the collapse of a company by trading back and forth between companies that on the books are separate, but in reality are not. The only other shoe to drop is the collapse of RSCycle which, for the sake of its employees, I hope never happens but unless RSCycle can pay cash for their future bike inventory, regardless of their supplier, they may find it tough to replace the revenue they received from selling Iron Horse bikes. Maybe RSCycle can sell other brands, parts/accessories/clothing, or even other types of goods to replace some of the revenue they are surely losing but when I look at their web site I see very little selection compared to their competitors.

    In any event, even though I have been threatened by “that online retailer’s” principal I wish his company the best of luck in the future as I am a capitalist and do not wish ill upon any company for the sake of its employees and because it is in the interest of my philosophy for businesses to succeed. However, when businesses make bad decisions, they deserve to reap the consequences of their actions. My advice to both Iron Horse and RSCycle would be to forthrightly address their relationship in a press release and take concrete steps to ensure that their customer’s pending Iron Horse warranty claims will be dealt with reasonably in an attempt to preserve the value of their names. If neither of these things happen I don’t think either company should be surprised if they have problems down the line that include the potential that the value of the Iron Horse name itself is diminished in value if/when a sale of the name is attempted. I think history shows us companies that try to conceal their associations, even legal, ethical associations, ultimately are hurt by the act of concealing them more than they otherwise would have been by doing their business together in the open. Just my opinion and I don’t think I should be threatened with a lawsuit over it.

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by WolfnSheepsClothing
    { a bit of educational history }
    Was a break up with DW a cause or a consequence of this described sequence of events? Did not it happen before 2008? In such a case the messy wind down could have been planned...

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by WolfnSheepsClothing
    I can’t help but wonder ...
    instead, Iron Horse and/or their schills seem to be attributing their downfall to current economic conditions but it’s plain to see that their problems were developing over a long period of time, well before the economy turned down. In fact, regardless of the state of the economy, if I were a lender and Iron Horse came to me to finance their 2009 lineup and I was able to determine through an examination of their books and/or through other research that a large percentage of their business in 2007 and 2008 was to sell their bikes to a company who is run by a family member, at or below their cost, I do believe I would turn down that opportunity. Think about that for a minute and then ask yourself...
    I have thought about it and I'd like to see you provide some figures as to how much IH paid for it's taiwan made frames.
    And how much they paid for their bulk bought parts. That way we all can see if IH was selling RS their bikes at a loss as you insinuate. You haven't shown any proof whatsoever.

    I get wholesale pricing on a certain outdoor clothing company. Their prices are high end but not as costly as other brands. A good example would be Giant vs. Turner. I pay 50% of retail cost or msrp. And most retailers sell this clothing at msrp. So if I get it at wholesale(50% of msrp) and the company is still able to make a decent profit. The manufacturers margins must be pretty good. So I would imagine that a bike manufacturer like IH could sell RScycle a product well below wholesale and still make a profit because RScycle would sell a lot more bikes than any one IBD. Whether or not RS can sell more bikes than all of the IBD's that were selling them is another question.

    So why don't you provide cost figures that IH paid for their bikes so that we can compare them to RScycle prices, Then maybe I would actually feel that there was some credibility to what you insinuate rather than you looking like some disgruntled employee.
    I know that IH has failed, so be it, I don't care... I don't care that they stopped selling through IBD's and went to a direct sales platform. I don't even care if Daddy hooked his son up with the exclusive rights to sell IH and that plan led to the demise of WWC's. One can really look at RS as a division of WWC anyway.
    But if you are going to make claims that WWC deliberately destroyed their company by selling RS IH bikes at a loss, well you need to provide proof.

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by wormvine
    So why don't you provide cost figures that IH paid for their bikes so that we can compare them to RScycle prices, Then maybe I would actually believe what you say!
    It looks like companies like Ibex or Bikesdirect are able to make money (I doubt that they are charities) on prices comparable, or lower then Randall's shop offered for bikes with similar, or lower level of kit. The only difference would be the _dw license (wonder how much that was) and actually having a professionally maintained web site. It does not look like RS was giving it away at cost.

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curmy
    It looks like companies like Ibex or Bikesdirect are able to make money (I doubt that they are charities) on prices comparable, or lower then Randall's shop offered for bikes with similar, or lower level of kit. The only difference would be the _dw license (wonder how much that was) and actually having a professionally maintained web site. It does not look like RS was giving it away at cost.
    I agree completely.

  70. #70
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    Cause or effect

    Quote Originally Posted by Curmy
    Was a break up with DW a cause or a consequence of this described sequence of events? Did not it happen before 2008? In such a case the messy wind down could have been planned...
    Only DW can say for sure whether the decision not to renew the DW Link license for IH was a cause or an effect of the sequence of events I am describing. However, I can't help but think that DW did not appreciate seeing Iron Horse bikes with his intellectual property attached being sold by internet bike retailers at deep discounts, earlier and earlier each year in a race to the bottom. From what I can see there were already IBD's dropping Iron Horse in 2007 and some expressed openly that they were tired of competing against competitors on the internet, one of which we now know was in the family.

    I also can't help but think that DW was smart enough to have always kept his options open with respect to whom he would collaborate with to create DW-Link equipped bikes. Given what was going on amongst IH IBD's I can envision that DW may have seen what was going on in the same way that many in the industry did and that it spurred him to begin looking for other options.

    It is also possible that DW's contract with IH always allowed him to pursue additional licensees and that his decision to drop Iron Horse was only realized after comparing what IH was doing with his designs to what other companies were pitching. Let's see, Iron Horse and their drama on one hand or partner with Chris Cocalis' project on the other hand? Not hard for those in the know to make that decision if you ask me. Same goes for weighing IH vs. Turner in my opinion.

    At the end of the day, I could be wrong about DW's motives but if it were me and I saw the bikes I had a large part in designing being discounted in a race to the bottom and knowing that that can only last so long I would have probably begun to explore other options as well. It seems that these scenarios are consistent with the timeline of what led up to the the IH DW-Link license being nixed by DW. After that, I am sure many other IBD's saw the writing on the wall and the pace of IBD's dropping likely picked up leading to their IBD program being dropped. I guess I just can't see a scenario where online bike retailers selling DW-Link equipped Iron Horse bikes at deeper and deeper discounts, undercutting IH's own IBD's, as being something that was sustainable, even if DW had renewed their license.

    I don't claim to be infallible but there are some insiders who post on this forum that can vouch for the fact that my perspective on this has some weight.

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by _dw
    I'm not sure where you are getting your information, but the suggestion that "Dw-link wanted major coin to continue their relationship with wwcs." could not be further from the truth.

    I ended the dw-link relationship with the Iron Horse brand. There was never a point in time where Iron Horse had the ability to end any relationship, and quite to the contrary, their hope was to continue the relationship. As it stands today, Iron Horse stopped paying dw-link in early 2008 (although they continued to sell bikes). It has become a pretty sad situation and it has forced some actions that I know my company would rather not be a part of. Oh well, I chock it up to learning experience and move on. I just hope that Iron Horse can make good on their contract obligations but I am not losing sleep over it any more. I made peace with that back in 2007.
    dave pm me,

  72. #72
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    Machiavellian

    Quote Originally Posted by wormvine
    I have thought about it and I'd like to see you provide some figures as to how much IH paid for it's taiwan made frames.
    And how much they paid for their bulk bought parts. That way we all can see if IH was selling RS their bikes at a loss as you insinuate. You haven't shown any proof whatsoever.

    I get wholesale pricing on a certain outdoor clothing company. Their prices are high end but not as costly as other brands. A good example would be Giant vs. Turner. I pay 50% of retail cost or msrp. And most retailers sell this clothing at msrp. So if I get it at wholesale(50% of msrp) and the company is still able to make a decent profit. The manufacturers margins must be pretty good. So I would imagine that a bike manufacturer like IH could sell RScycle a product well below wholesale and still make a profit because RScycle would sell a lot more bikes than any one IBD. Whether or not RS can sell more bikes than all of the IBD's that were selling them is another question.

    So why don't you provide cost figures that IH paid for their bikes so that we can compare them to RScycle prices, Then maybe I would actually feel that there was some credibility to what you insinuate rather than you looking like some disgruntled employee.
    I know that IH has failed, so be it, I don't care... I don't care that they stopped selling through IBD's and went to a direct sales platform. I don't even care if Daddy hooked his son up with the exclusive rights to sell IH and that plan led to the demise of WWC's. One can really look at RS as a division of WWC anyway.
    But if you are going to make claims that WWC deliberately destroyed their company by selling RS IH bikes at a loss, well you need to provide proof.
    "So I would imagine that a bike manufacturer like IH could sell RScycle a product well below wholesale and still make a profit because RScycle would sell a lot more bikes than any one IBD"

    The above statement pretty much invalidates your entire argument since, as is the case with most bike companies, Iron Horse was never a manufacturer. IH used asian based factories to produce their bikes for them based on the designs they submitted to the factories. See the following link for the list of factories used by Worldwide Cycle Supply (IH, K2, etc.): http://www.bicycleretailer.com/downloads/US%20factory%20chart%2010-08LoRes.pdf As a result, it is completely incorrect to think of Iron Horse as having "manufacturers margins" to play with when selling to anyone, let alone RSCycle.

    Nevertheless, I never said anything about WWCS deliberately destroying their own company by selling RS bikes at a loss. That is a bit too Machiavellian, even for me. If you read all of my posts I did say that RS and other internet bike companies started to sell IH bikes at MSRP & MAP early on and that over time each year, they lowered their prices. I see this as a multi year process which eventually led to IH selling their bikes to RSCyle near or below their cost in the end.

    After 2006, the 2007 IH line spent less time at MSRP/MAP and when they were discounted they were discounted more deeply than the year before. In addition, in 2007 you started to see Performance sell DW-Link equipped bikes and other IH bikes that were were spec'd slightly differently than the IH catalog and that were named a little differently as well. In the industry these are SMU's. If I remember correctly, Performance really blew those out at deep discounts as well, though not as low as RSCycle was selling the 2007 IH catalog lineup.

    If my memory hasn't failed me, I believe RSCycle was the only internet retailer in the US selling the bulk of the 2008 IH lineup and again, if my memory serves me, they were marked down very quickly after they went on sale - definitely faster than the previous year. Over the course of 2008 the prices only went down from there.

    Furthermore Wormvine and Curmy, you are making the false assumption that bike shops are dealing in bikes at 50% margin when selling at MSRP. In fact, it's more like 30%-45% depending upon the price of the bike. The more expensive the bike, the lower the margin. Take into account that most bikes are sold closer to MAP, the average margin is actually lower. Bring competition and haggling into it and the margin drops again. Bike shops don't stay in business by selling bikes, they do it with service, parts, accessories, clothing, etc. which all have higher margins than bikes - especially service labor which has very high margins.

    Taking it a step further, bicycle industry wholesaler and supplier margins are lower than retail margins due to the volume. Approximately 10%-35% depending upon the product. So once a retailer approaches selling a bike at or below the cost of what their competitors say are their costs, as has been widely reported by IH IBD's competing with internet retailers such as RSCycle, it doesn't take nearly as much of an additional discount before they are being sold at or near the supplier/wholesaler original cost is. By mid to late 2008, with no IBD's and no DW-Link RSCycle had really cut their prices very deeply with occasional sales offering additional discounts. At this point it's just common sense that someone selling bikes near or below what some IH IBD's had previously reported was their cost, is approaching the suppliers cost, given the lower margins of a supplier who uses other factories to produce their bicycles. IH is not Giant who uses their own factories and subsidizes their prices with contract work producing bikes for their own competitors.

    In the end, we know Iron Horse was selling bikes for too little money because they folded. How close they sold their bikes to their own cost, above or below, is unknown to me because I don't have access to their books and I never claimed to actually have examined their books, nor could you are anyone else because IH is a private company. I am simply making an educated guess as to the actual numbers. If I were a betting man I would say that I am probably not far off. You can take what I say with a grain of salt or completely ignore it if you wish. Knowing what I know, I vote for my analysis.

    One additional thing, I have no detailed knowledge of the Ibex or Bikesdirect business model but my guess is that their prices are competitive or sometimes lower than RSCycle's because they buy bikes directly from the factory for brands that they directly own and that they seem to be comfortable that people know this is the case. Conversely, RSCycle was buying bikes from IH (a separate company with separate books - technically) who bought them from the factories they use to produce their bikes. Everything I have posted is consistent with the idea that Iron Horse was mortally wounded by internet retailers selling their bikes at prices that drove their IBD's away and ultimately led to Iron Horse's failure, not RSCycle's failure. As far as I can tell, they are still in business. As a result, the comparison between Ibex/Bikesdirect and RSCycle is apples and oranges.
    Last edited by WolfnSheepsClothing; 03-03-2009 at 12:19 AM.

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    I was recently checking out IH bikes. Good thing I didn't buy one otherwise I'd be screwed if I had a warranty issue.

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    Why is everyone worried about warranty issues. I've have my 2007 6point6 for about a year now and that thing is sick. Not sure what I would have to do to it to bend/break anything, it feels like its undestroyable. I'll continue riding my bike and feel good about it no matter what IH's outcome might be.

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by F1000Dale
    Why is everyone worried about warranty issues. I've have my 2007 6point6 for about a year now and that thing is sick. Not sure what I would have to do to it to bend/break anything, it feels like its undestroyable. I'll continue riding my bike and feel good about it no matter what IH's outcome might be.
    Yeah, it seems to me the biggest thing to worry about on those bikes are the components/shocks/forks, which would be covered by their respective manufacturers anyway. I've never heard of anyone breaking an Iron Horse frame (though I'm sure it has happened). Wouldn't now be a GOOD time to buy an Iron Horse, since the prices will likely drop even more?

  76. #76
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    Another thing

    Quote Originally Posted by wormvine
    I have thought about it and I'd like to see you provide some figures as to how much IH paid for it's taiwan made frames.
    And how much they paid for their bulk bought parts. That way we all can see if IH was selling RS their bikes at a loss as you insinuate. You haven't shown any proof whatsoever.
    Another thing I just thought of was that I believe like many bike companies, IH sold mostly complete bikes, delivered to them boxed with the parts hung at the factory. This likely means that the per unit pricing IH received from the factories they used was inclusive of the parts which were marked up some amount by the factories themselves, as is the case with many other bike companies who buy complete bikes from the factory. Can any IH "insiders" confirm this?

    Bike companies who buy frames and parts separately but aren't large enough to buy their parts directly from parts manufacturers with true OEM pricing actually buy their parts from wholesalers at what is called "OEM" pricing which still has some markup included. Larger bike companies that can buy parts directly from their manufacturer's will likley have the highest margins in the overall industry on complete bikes. I could be wrong but I don't think IH ever fell into the same economy of scale as Giant, Specialized, Trek, etc. with Giant actually having the added advantage that they subsidize their prices with the income derived from producing many of the frames for their own competitors.

  77. #77
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    RandalScott has ALWAYS been quick to post in these forums, addressing any maintenance and/or warranty concerns.

    But has anyone notices that the company STILL hasn't posted up, denying these claims, or defending themselves?

    To quote one of my favorite movies...

    "I know! And I'm all, 'you've gotta be sh*ttin' me!' But check this out man, judge should be like [bangs fist on table] Prosecutor: 'guilty!' Peace. "
    Meh.

  78. #78
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    Wolf , why do you keep spinning it? I am sorry if I said IH was a "manufacturer". It wasn't being that specific. Let's say BIke company??? My examples about 50% msrp wholesale etc were just examples. If someone from IH wants to post up the exact margins, I welcome it. I have been asking for actual figures all along. But ALAS. no one has posted any data whatsoever. NO ONE!

    Me and Curmy were just doing what you have been doing since this thread started. Analyzing the possiblilities with the data available. I never said the numbers were exactly what IH was using. It was a real world example though. Just because the margins of IH may not exactly match my real world example does not mean my argument is moot. That's just stupid logic! I was giving real world examples used to deduce that IH "MIGHT" be able to survive with a direct marketing business model. Once again if you have real numbers to post up do it!
    Go ahead DO IT!

    I am also sorry if I misinterpreted your statements that IH deliberately sunk their company. Others definitely insinuated that and this quote from you led me to believe that as well:
    Originally Posted by WolfnSheepsClothing
    if I were a lender and Iron Horse came to me to finance their 2009 lineup and I was able to determine through an examination of their books and/or through other research that a large percentage of their business in 2007 and 2008 was to sell their bikes to a company who is run by a family member, at or below their cost, I do believe I would turn down that opportunity. Think about that for a minute and then ask yourself...


    What exactly did you mean by that statement then?

    Let me reiterate this to everyone:
    I accept that IH went under.
    I accept that the direct sales model "might" have caused IH to fail.
    I accept that Randall Scott is the son of the owner of WWC.
    I agree that it was a nepotistic relationship IH+RS.
    Get over it and move on!
    But,
    I won't accept without PROOF that the downfall of IH was deliberate by the upper management of IH.

  79. #79
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    We will post an official statement in the next couple of days to dispel a number of myths regarding the situation. A byproduct of all of this has been increased traffic to our site and increased sales. Goes to show that all press is good press

    The hard working staff at Randall Scott Company are most concerned about our customers and making sure they understand that they will be taken care of when purchasing an IH bike from us.

    Randall Scott Company wants to make it 100% clear that we will DIRECTLY HONOR ALL IRON HORSE MANUFACTURER WARRANTY FOR BIKES PURCHSED THROUGH RANDALL SCOTT COMPANY.

    Customers can continue to receive our great value and service on Iron horse bikes. We are prospering even in these economic times (Online sales and in store Boulder sales are stronger than ever for us) and will continue to provide our great service and value to customers.

    The terms of Iron Horse Warranty are as follows:

    Randall Scott Company Will Directly Honor the terms of Iron Horse's Manufacturer Warranty for Bikes and REPLACEMENT PARTS NEEDED when purchasing Iron Horse bikes Through Our Company

    Customers of Randall Scott Company can contact us directly and we will take care of your warranty and replacement parts for Iron Horse Bikes. Simply Put: You purchase from Randall Scott Company and your warranty will be taken care of by Randall Scott Company.

    All Iron Horse bicycle frames purchased from Randall Scott Company are warranted by Randall Scott Company to be free from defects in material and workmanship under normal use only if the bicycle is owned by the original owner

    • Aluminum Hardtails and Cross Country Dual Suspension - 5 years from date of purchase • Downhill Racing and Freeride Dual Suspension Frames - 1 year from date of purchase

    As always we wish only success for EVERYONE in the Bicycle industry including our competitors. A strong Industry is a good industry and we all have to do our part to spend our time and energy in a positive way to continue to promote the sport of cycling and make it accessible to more and more Americans.


    (Prettym1k3) stated "$10 says RS Cycle doesn't even post up about this." You can send the $10 to Randall Scott Company 2897 Mapleton Avenue Boulder, CO 80301

    Best Regards,

    The Hard Working Staff at Randall Scott Company
    Last edited by Randall Scott Company; 03-03-2009 at 11:00 AM.

  80. #80
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    What about those who purchased their bikes elsewhere. Are the replacement parts available for us to buy?

  81. #81
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    Exactly, where do we buy replacement parts such as rear triangles, pivot kits or bearings for IH bikes bought elsewhere?

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randall Scott Company
    Randall Scott Company Will Directly Honor the terms of Iron Horse's Manufacturer Warranty for Bikes and REPLACEMENT PARTS NEEDED when purchasing Iron Horse bikes Through Our Company
    Best Regards,
    The Hard Working Staff at Randall Scott Company
    RSC,

    Just wondering if you'll also be paying _dw his fair share of royalties from net sales of DW-Link IH bikes you sell.

    SP
    "The best you've ridden is the best you know" - Paul Thede, Race Tech

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    Quote Originally Posted by SCUBAPRO
    RSC,

    Just wondering if you'll also be paying _dw his fair share of royalties from net sales of DW-Link IH bikes you sell.

    SP
    Another $10 to smoke them out.

  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by WolfnSheepsClothing
    Furthermore Wormvine and Curmy, you are making the false assumption that bike shops are dealing in bikes at 50% margin when selling at MSRP. In fact, it's more like 30%-45% depending upon the price of the bike.
    I am not making any assumptions - I have no idea how this industry works inside. But I am making an observation about some Asian manufactured kits being sold at a profit by online retailers.

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    This reply is too long, I wish I hadn't made is so long...too late

    Quote Originally Posted by wormvine
    Wolf , why do you keep spinning it? I am sorry if I said IH was a "manufacturer". It wasn't being that specific. Let's say BIke company??? My examples about 50% msrp wholesale etc were just examples. If someone from IH wants to post up the exact margins, I welcome it. I have been asking for actual figures all along. But ALAS. no one has posted any data whatsoever. NO ONE!

    Me and Curmy were just doing what you have been doing since this thread started. Analyzing the possiblilities with the data available. I never said the numbers were exactly what IH was using. It was a real world example though. Just because the margins of IH may not exactly match my real world example does not mean my argument is moot. That's just stupid logic! I was giving real world examples used to deduce that IH "MIGHT" be able to survive with a direct marketing business model. Once again if you have real numbers to post up do it!
    Go ahead DO IT!

    I am also sorry if I misinterpreted your statements that IH deliberately sunk their company. Others definitely insinuated that and this quote from you led me to believe that as well:
    Originally Posted by WolfnSheepsClothing
    if I were a lender and Iron Horse came to me to finance their 2009 lineup and I was able to determine through an examination of their books and/or through other research that a large percentage of their business in 2007 and 2008 was to sell their bikes to a company who is run by a family member, at or below their cost, I do believe I would turn down that opportunity. Think about that for a minute and then ask yourself...


    What exactly did you mean by that statement then?

    Let me reiterate this to everyone:
    I accept that IH went under.
    I accept that the direct sales model "might" have caused IH to fail.
    I accept that Randall Scott is the son of the owner of WWC.
    I agree that it was a nepotistic relationship IH+RS.
    Get over it and move on!
    But,
    I won't accept without PROOF that the downfall of IH was deliberate by the upper management of IH.
    Wormvine & Curmy

    First off, nowhere did I ever say or imply that “the downfall of IH was deliberate” and was foisted upon the company “by the upper management of IH”. Your main premise is just incorrect. Others may have said that but I believe I have always said that it was due to bad management. Bad management is not always deliberate and I don’t think it was deliberate in this case.

    My gut feeling is that I think IH went under as a result of a string of bad management decisions that included an innocent attempt to provide an opportunity to grow Iron Horse while also offering a chance for a father to provide his son an opportunity of his own. I also am of the opinion that the result of expanding internet sales of Iron Horse bikes devalued the brand over time and led to a scenario where Iron Horse found itself with a shrinking IBD base which caused them to sit on 2007 inventory that they then disposed of using the path of least resistance, RSCycle, for obvious reasons.

    Once the public saw they could buy IH bikes for deep discounts on RSCycle, they probably snapped up what was left. This would have essentially been a mini liquidation that would have likely put IH behind the 8 ball for 2008, right off the bat, with 2008 IH inventory already in the pipeline and/or on the way. After it became known that IH lost its DW-Link license their 2008 inventory, delivered or not, was probably worth less to the public than it was the day before the news was out. Additional IBD’s may have then dropped IH or refused to take additional shipments of IH bikes. One of the bike shop owners in the August 2008 BRAIN article said this was the case for his shop. Repeat the experience of selling off 2008 IH inventory through the path of least resistance, RSCycle, at even deeper discounts this time and it is a recipe for Iron Horse’s demise. Since IH was a large and important portion of the overall WWCS business, as Dave Weagle points out, this could easily have caused the whole WWCS organization to fail.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The above is my educated guess. Below is the reasoning behind how I arrived at the margins I have been using. Maybe I am crazy or maybe I am just plain wrong. I guess we’ll never know for sure.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I am not “spinning” anything I have posted. My posts only lay out what I see as the likely chain of events that caused Iron Horse to go under. I readily accept that you both are doing your own analysis based on the information you have available. However, based on the information I have available about the bike industry I can confidently say that the other premise of your argument is likely incorrect, especially if you were thinking in terms of “manufacturer” margins (you did use that word). Can I say this with 100% certainty? The answer is, no.

    Based on the numbers I see now and have seen on the RSCycle web site for quite some time, I can simply do the math and figure out what the margin is from the RSCycle sale price to the published MSRP. In many instances it’s above 45%, even for bikes with higher price points. Usually, it’s the lower price point bikes that have dealer margins at the 45% level when selling at MSRP. For higher price point bikes it’s not uncommon to see 25%-35% dealer margins if sold at MSRP. We know from multiple IH IBD’s that they dropped IH due to competition from internet retailers like RSCycle who they said were often selling near or below their cost for IH bikes. If RSCycle had been selling all these bikes at or near their own cost for the last several years, I think we would be talking about RSCycle going under.

    Logically, that leads to the assumption that RSCycle is making something on the Iron Horse bikes they are selling. How much I don’t know but if RSCycle is blowing bikes out the door with a low overhead internet retail business model, it would likely take somewhere in the vicinity of 15%-20% margins to break even if RSCycle’s costs are really bare bones. If we keep teasing this out it seems that Iron Horse would have likely been selling their bikes to RSCycle for at least roughly 15%-20% less than RSCycle was selling them for – maybe more if RSCycle’s margins are more.

    Knowing that most bike industry wholesale and distributor margins are lower than retail margins leads me to believe that over time IH was selling their bikes to RSCycle and other online retailers at prices closer and closer to their cost, maybe even below their own cost in the end, thus causing their collapse. The most important piece of information I have to back up my analysis is that we now know that Iron Horse and its parent company WWCS did, in fact, collapse. There are other possible reasons that this could have happened but the one I think is most probable is the one I have described.

    What did I mean by my “if I were a lender and Iron Horse came to me” statement? If my analysis is correct, which I happed to think it is, than my statement makes perfect sense in this context. Ask yourself what you would do if any company came to you for financing and their books and/or research showed you what I have described. I don’t think you as an investor would want to lend money based on that type of track record. The fact that these two companies were linked by family ties isn’t really the overriding reason why I think this hypothetical “loan application” would be rejected but it would likely be part of the reasoning for rejecting it in this case.

    To sum up this long (yes I work, I am writing while eating lunch, and while in between calls), overly wordy post of mine, if your standard of proof is exact numbers, then I can’t offer you the level of proof you are looking for. I don’t have access to IH’s books and I doubt anyone who does would post here. However I can offer an educated guess at to what happened that I believe some “insiders” who would have been in position to have a better idea of the exact numbers would agree with.
    Last edited by WolfnSheepsClothing; 03-03-2009 at 03:23 PM.

  86. #86
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    I apologize if I am putting words in your mouth but your post seemed to indicate that you were comparing your experience with the numbers of the bike industry. They are just different numbers that to many in the industry just add up to bad new for anyone, including IH, as I believe is the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Curmy
    I am not making any assumptions - I have no idea how this industry works inside. But I am making an observation about some Asian manufactured kits being sold at a profit by online retailers.

  87. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randall Scott Company
    We will post an official statement in the next couple of days to dispel a number of myths regarding the situation. A byproduct of all of this has been increased traffic to our site and increased sales. Goes to show that all press is good press

    The hard working staff at Randall Scott Company are most concerned about our customers and making sure they understand that they will be taken care of when purchasing an IH bike from us.

    Randall Scott Company wants to make it 100% clear that we will DIRECTLY HONOR ALL IRON HORSE MANUFACTURER WARRANTY FOR BIKES PURCHSED THROUGH RANDALL SCOTT COMPANY.

    Customers can continue to receive our great value and service on Iron horse bikes. We are prospering even in these economic times (Online sales and in store Boulder sales are stronger than ever for us) and will continue to provide our great service and value to customers.

    The terms of Iron Horse Warranty are as follows:

    Randall Scott Company Will Directly Honor the terms of Iron Horse's Manufacturer Warranty for Bikes and REPLACEMENT PARTS NEEDED when purchasing Iron Horse bikes Through Our Company

    Customers of Randall Scott Company can contact us directly and we will take care of your warranty and replacement parts for Iron Horse Bikes. Simply Put: You purchase from Randall Scott Company and your warranty will be taken care of by Randall Scott Company.

    All Iron Horse bicycle frames purchased from Randall Scott Company are warranted by Randall Scott Company to be free from defects in material and workmanship under normal use only if the bicycle is owned by the original owner

    • Aluminum Hardtails and Cross Country Dual Suspension - 5 years from date of purchase • Downhill Racing and Freeride Dual Suspension Frames - 1 year from date of purchase

    As always we wish only success for EVERYONE in the Bicycle industry including our competitors. A strong Industry is a good industry and we all have to do our part to spend our time and energy in a positive way to continue to promote the sport of cycling and make it accessible to more and more Americans.


    (Prettym1k3) stated "$10 says RS Cycle doesn't even post up about this." You can send the $10 to Randall Scott Company 2897 Mapleton Avenue Boulder, CO 80301

    Best Regards,

    The Hard Working Staff at Randall Scott Company
    What about Iron Horse bikes not purchased through RSC? I've got a cracked Hollowpoint frame that I purchased less than 5 years ago that John Magill (of IH) said was a warranty issue and that a replacement MKIII frame was on its way. Fast forward 6-8 weeks and multiple phone calls, emails, later and still no replacement frame. Am I out of luck because I bought an IH bike but didn't buy it from RSC?

  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by WolfnSheepsClothing
    .......
    That was a very well stated analysis and I appreciate the time you took to write it.
    I do not disagree with what you have written. Thanks for clarifying your position.

  89. #89
    U sayin' Bolt ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by bacolmm
    What about Iron Horse bikes not purchased through RSC? I've got a cracked Hollowpoint frame that I purchased less than 5 years ago that John Magill (of IH) said was a warranty issue and that a replacement MKIII frame was on its way. Fast forward 6-8 weeks and multiple phone calls, emails, later and still no replacement frame. Am I out of luck because I bought an IH bike but didn't buy it from RSC?
    Call RSCYCLE 1800 549 9091

  90. #90
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    Thank you RS for taking the time to reply to this thread.

    I have been in contact with the original poster of this thread, and I will be locking this thread at the end of the business day today. It has become a breeding ground of lies, rumors, and truths all mixed together and there is a point where it becomes hard (or nearly impossible) to tell one from the other. When opinions are offered up as facts by many, it creates problems.

    We encourage discussion about all things biking, but this thread has continued to degrade from many sides.

    These are difficult times and individuals as well as companies are going thru hardships of all kinds. Such circumstances often require us all to exercise a bit of discretion when posting about difficult situations.


    -gregg, Site Manager Mtbr.com

  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregg
    Thank you RS for taking the time to reply to this thread.

    I have been in contact with the original poster of this thread, and I will be locking this thread at the end of the business day today. It has become a breeding ground of lies, rumors, and truths all mixed together and there is a point where it becomes hard (or nearly impossible) to tell one from the other. When opinions are offered up as facts by many, it creates problems.

    We encourage discussion about all things biking, but this thread has continued to degrade from many sides.

    These are difficult times and individuals as well as companies are going thru hardships of all kinds. Such circumstances often require us all to exercise a bit of discretion when posting about difficult situations.


    -gregg, Site Manager Mtbr.com
    Ultimately gregg, you are the man in charge here and will do as you see fit. However, I strongly disagree with you on this.

    Admittedly, this thread is full of rumors, false information and opinions. But so are many many other threads here. We are constantly told that we shouldn't but the RS Lyrik 2-step fork because there will be a failure in a few rides. Ellsworth bikes will crack quickly and Turner bikes will last forever I could go on and on and on. Those thread are all full of opinions, lies rumors truths all presented as facts. I do not see a difference between that, and this...

    On second thought, I do see a difference. Those are calling out individual products, or lines of products mostly from large companies without a presence on this site. In this case, I see you stepping in to close a thread that is detrimental to a possible (likely?) financial contributer to this site.

    I come from the automotive industry so I know all too well about the hardships of the times we are in. I also know that rumors can be dangerous. However, I don't see that any of those things should directly influence what we are allowed to discuss on this site. Perhaps I would agree with putting the brakes on it if we were planning on starting a campaign to protest them or something similar. But discussing something such as this should be allowed. Again, I have to think it has something to do with the fact that RS contributes in some way.

    I offer to change my thoughts on this if you can find me one thread with more than a few posts on this site without someone presenting opinions or half truths as facts...

  92. #92
    GAME ON!
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    that's just going to result in another thread just as the original one resulted in this one. we need a specific place to discuss and gossip and try to filter out the truth from the untruths.
    RIP Adam Yauch

    "M.C. for what I AM and do, the A is for Adam and the lyrics; true"

  93. #93
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    Ok.....

    Before this thread gets locked let me say that what one individual says is a "lie" is often another person's perspective on the same situation. In fact, I am sure many who have posted in or are reading this thread believe that much of what has been heard from Iron Horse and RSCycle in response to threads like this is an attempt to obfuscate the truth, at best, or are out and out lies, at worst. However, you wouldn't shut down threads where IH or RSCycle post things that are considered lies to some, would you?

    I also agree that what is going on in this thread is the same as what is seen in the vast majority of other product related threads. People posting about cycling products, services, companies, etc. from their perspective, using their experience with the product or service definitely should be encouraged here. Just my opinion and that's a fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by gregg
    Thank you RS for taking the time to reply to this thread.

    I have been in contact with the original poster of this thread, and I will be locking this thread at the end of the business day today. It has become a breeding ground of lies, rumors, and truths all mixed together and there is a point where it becomes hard (or nearly impossible) to tell one from the other. When opinions are offered up as facts by many, it creates problems.

    We encourage discussion about all things biking, but this thread has continued to degrade from many sides.

    These are difficult times and individuals as well as companies are going thru hardships of all kinds. Such circumstances often require us all to exercise a bit of discretion when posting about difficult situations.


    -gregg, Site Manager Mtbr.com

  94. #94
    GAME ON!
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    RS just wants you to keep buying bikes. all of their posts basically say that all is well and you should buy a bike from them worry-free
    RIP Adam Yauch

    "M.C. for what I AM and do, the A is for Adam and the lyrics; true"

  95. #95
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    Iron Horse is obviously withholding information. I honestly find it hard to trust RS Cycle seeing their financial ties to this thread. I think that this thread should be kept alive. Let people use their brains to distinguish betwee speculation, lies, facts . . . I think the thread should be kept alive.

  96. #96
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    Okay, guys, I hear ya. We'll let this thread continue for another day to see how it goes.

    -g

  97. #97
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    Thanks Gregg, let the people speak.

    Isn't that what forums are all about in the first place?

  98. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregg
    Okay, guys, I hear ya. We'll let this thread continue for another day to see how it goes.

    -g
    Thanks, I really appreciate hearing us out and considering all sides of the story!

  99. #99
    my fun has a hurting
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    i hope you don't close this thread. a pattern, or the appearance of a pattern of shutting down threads that major sponsors of the site aren't happy with would do a lot of damage to the reputation of, and hence the user base of mtbr as a whole....

  100. #100

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    **** and I just bought a Quantum II.... Damn that sucks

  101. #101
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    Kudos to Gregg.

  102. #102
    Tire Geek O_o
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    Quote Originally Posted by sikkfreerider
    why is everyone so worried about pivots? has anyone ever bent or damaged a pivot bad enuff for it to need replacing? we already know we can get bearings from enduroforkseals.
    I am more worried about the swingarms of the rear suspension,

  103. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by knutso
    Call RSCYCLE 1800 549 9091
    I have already and was told that they weren't sure yet how issues for bikes purchased outside RSC would be handled. I will call them back today. This has been really frustrating as it's been going on for a long time and I was told that my frame had been shipped and was on it's way. I even went out and purchased components for it weeks ago. Ugggg!

  104. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by bacolmm
    I have already and was told that they weren't sure yet how issues for bikes purchased outside RSC would be handled. I will call them back today. This has been really frustrating as it's been going on for a long time and I was told that my frame had been shipped and was on it's way. I even went out and purchased components for it weeks ago. Ugggg!
    That really sucks. Hopefully you will get what you need.
    In the meantime...
    http://cgi.ebay.com/08-Marin-East-Pe...1%7C240%3A1318

  105. #105
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    Liquidated IH bikes, parts, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by bacolmm
    What about Iron Horse bikes not purchased through RSC? I've got a cracked Hollowpoint frame that I purchased less than 5 years ago that John Magill (of IH) said was a warranty issue and that a replacement MKIII frame was on its way. Fast forward 6-8 weeks and multiple phone calls, emails, later and still no replacement frame. Am I out of luck because I bought an IH bike but didn't buy it from RSC?
    So we now know that Iron Horse went down in flames, so to speak. We also know that whatever was left at IH was liquidated but we don’t know where it went.

    RSCycle has posted that they are now going to be handling warranties for IH bikes bought from them and a poster said they are still trying to decide how to handle IH owners who bought elsewhere. This suggests that RSCycle has some parts and possibly even some frames to use for warranties. I can’t help but speculate that this means RSCycle wound up with some of the stuff IH liquidated or they knew what was coming and some/all of the IH parts/frames were transferred to RSCycle given they were "esxclusive" with IH. This doesn’t seem too far fetched given the well reported family ties between IH & RSCycle and the insistence that everything is hunky-dory. It would likely have taken months to get any replacement parts or frames delivered from the factory, assuming the “bridge” to the factory hasn’t been burned by the collapse of IH and WWCS, so if RSCyle now has parts/frames for warranty, where did they come from?

    If everything is just fine then we could expect that all IH owners with issues to be serviced by someone, right? If IH is going to be viable in the future you would think they would have the sense to make some sort of official announcement or RSCycle would if they are going to take over distribution of IH in the future.

    The floor is yours RSCycle….What will you do with it?

  106. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by WolfnSheepsClothing
    So we now know that Iron Horse went down in flames, so to speak.
    Has this been officially confirmed yet?

  107. #107
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    Rephrase

    Quote Originally Posted by dascro
    Has this been officially confirmed yet?
    Let me rephrase...World Wide Cycle Supply has gone down in flames according to published accounts. Iron Horse may go on but it likely won't be in the form it once was. Exactly what it will look like is not known. At this point it looks like IH is just a name. It could be sold, passed to a family member to use, continued on in a diminished capacity, etc However, if IH is going to continue in the USA and have anything to do with RSCycle it would probably be beneficial for both parties to hurry up and decide what they are going to do with those who have pending warranty claims.

    It might also help to do everything they can to make amends with DW since I don't think it will help their cause to have have welched on a contract with one of the most sought after bike designers in the world. If this stands they will probably only be able to sell off the shelf factory frames with nice parts hung on them that people will buy for roughly the price of a component group and then sell the frame on eBay. I am being a smart ass here of course, but the reality will be that IH will have a hard time finding anyone who will want to work for them if they don't take care of their obligations.

    I would bet that K2, Columbia, & Jeep are sold. Personally, I hope IH lives on with the help of some new blood who get it, since in my opinion, the last management group didn't. Maybe we will all be surprised....maybe.

  108. #108
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    Some of this stuff is a bit misguided. For example, if RS is owned by the son of the owner of IH, it does not follow that IH's sales of bikes to RS are good or bad because of that relationship. In fact, cutting off their relationship with LBS/IBDs indicates that they IH needs to cut costs and significantly.

    The move to RS Cycles appears to be an attempt to stimulate sales, i.e., lower the price and maybe customers will buy? Now, it could also be an attempt to liquidate and exit the industry, who knows? But the former seems plausisble. People are not spending money on $2K bikes and IH is not Trek, Specialized, or Giant, they can't hold on from sheer size while sales plummet 50% or more. In addition, the company could be financed in ways that led to a need for quick cash as the market crashed.

    In any event, it is the economy and not the Father/Son relationship. (IH cannot stay in business if they sell their bikes below cost, regardless of who they sell them to.)

  109. #109
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    The fact is IH makes (made) a pretty nice bike for the price! Everyone seems to be hung up on the warranty loss issue and the relationship IH with RCcycles. I one could care less! The fact is if I can go by a bike for 50% less than retail or other words what it would cost me to buy from a LBS than I'm in! I'm willing to take a chance as I technically could buy two for the cost of one. I see RScycles is taking care of the warranty in house and my hats off to them for doing so. The question is are they making the offer to simply unload the remaining inventory or is it a legit offer?? I guess we'll find out overtime. I can only say I had nothing but good experiences with RScyles. Best way to look at if your looking to make a purchase , think of it as if your buying it used from an individual with no warranty and as-is. All in all no one seems to be able to beat the price for what you get.

    By all means this thread should stay alive, as I'm sure there's several IH buyers out there that are unaware that IH has gone under and this is a great resource to help make the buying decision.

  110. #110
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    This is slightly off topic but,

    A large chain of bicycle shops were carrying K2 and then abruptly stopped and brought in GT. K2 no longer honors there warranty claims and each individual shop is just expected to take care of things on there own. The last time K2 was called about a warranty issue they were told that the computers were down but could clearly hear typing in the back ground. The K2 bikes are now being discounted by said chain of shops to some level probably near cost. The chain of shops has also had internal memos informing people that Warranty are no longer valid and will need to be handled in house even if it means ordering replacment parts from a distributor like BTI and just eating the cost. Horrary for taking responsibility. In my opinion the easiest way for RS to restore a little reputation would be for them to step up and handle warranty stuff in house. IH folding may just be the beginning.....

  111. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by WolfnSheepsClothing
    It might also help to do everything they can to make amends with DW since I don't think it will help their cause to have have welched on a contract with one of the most sought after bike designers in the world. If this stands they will probably only be able to sell off the shelf factory frames with nice parts hung on them that people will buy for roughly the price of a component group and then sell the frame on eBay. I am being a smart ass here of course, but the reality will be that IH will have a hard time finding anyone who will want to work for them if they don't take care of their obligations
    My guess is that if anyone decides to pick up the Iron Horse line DW and anyone else the company owes money to will be left out to dry. I doubt the new owners will have any legal obligation to him or anyone else given the nature of the company 'folding', so to speak. Perhaps some money generated from the sale of whatever is left over may trickle to some degree down to it's creditors. But if it does it will be pennies on the dollar. Seems DW is in the right mindset to just write this bad chapter off completely at this point and move on. Keep in mind, the same thing is happening to those who own frozen/worthless GM stock, etc. It's just a fact/reality of the business world and really has nothing to do with honoring obligations to anyone to save face.

    Seems a lot of people on here think the bicycle industry resides in some special business model bubble, that is free from the effects/reality of the rest of the world. This is probably true of some really small, independant boutique brands, but not of the industry as a whole.

    If Iron Horse is revived with new owners whether that be RSCycles, some giant biking conglomeration or some kid with a spare $100 sitting in his piggy bank, they can pretty much do what they want to with the brand regardless of past issues. Until then, I would just sit patiently and wait to see what unfolds.
    Last edited by slcrockymountainrider; 03-10-2009 at 02:08 PM.

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    I one could care less! The fact is if I can go by a bike for 50% less than retail or other words what it would cost me to buy from a LBS than I'm in!
    I don't buy the 50% off retail. Who makes up this fictional retail price? Has anyone ever paid it? It's not really 50% off

  113. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by gnarboots11
    I don't buy the 50% off retail. Who makes up this fictional retail price? Has anyone ever paid it? It's not really 50% off
    Exactly. Plus, let's not forget the message saying the offers are perpetually ending tomorrow!

  114. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by cjsb
    Some of this stuff is a bit misguided. For example, if RS is owned by the son of the owner of IH, it does not follow that IH's sales of bikes to RS are good or bad because of that relationship. In fact, cutting off their relationship with LBS/IBDs indicates that they IH needs to cut costs and significantly.

    The move to RS Cycles appears to be an attempt to stimulate sales, i.e., lower the price and maybe customers will buy? Now, it could also be an attempt to liquidate and exit the industry, who knows? But the former seems plausisble. People are not spending money on $2K bikes and IH is not Trek, Specialized, or Giant, they can't hold on from sheer size while sales plummet 50% or more. In addition, the company could be financed in ways that led to a need for quick cash as the market crashed.

    In any event, it is the economy and not the Father/Son relationship. (IH cannot stay in business if they sell their bikes below cost, regardless of who they sell them to.)
    It is certainly true that selling anything to anyone at or near your own cost is a recipe for any business to fail. This failure is not specifically due to transactions between father & son, as I have said. These are private businesses and there is nothing ethically or legally wrong with doing business within the family but there are valid business reasons why it is not a good idea to do so. It’s also my contention that bad business decisions occurred at WWCS concerning IH and some of their other brands over a long period of time that cause their failure. Some of these I have pointed out based on observation of what is publicly available.

    However, there are other bits and pieces of info I had heard but only recently have been able to confirm to my own satisfaction which contributed heavily to the failure of WWCS. I can say that there is nothing sinister about this info but it is certainly indicative of ham-fisted management and it occurred over a long period of time before the economic downturn. The info is not something that can be confirmed with published accounts but it is completely believable and seems to fit the pattern of other things we have seen from Iron Horse and WWCS. I will leave it to others to post the details if they wish.

  115. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by dascro
    Exactly. Plus, let's not forget the message saying the offers are perpetually ending tomorrow!
    At one time, like most brands, much of the Iron Horse lineup, especially the DW-Link equipped bikes, were meant to be sold between MSRP and MAP (until actual clearance time) but that pretty much went out the window when Iron Horse's IBD's slowy were squeezed out of the market for IH bikes by competing against the online IH dealers.

    At this point in the game, you and gnarboots are right to point out that RSCycle's marketing completely lacks a realistic context. Not to mention that you can only put the fear in people with "ends tomorrow" when "ends tomorrow" never comes. At least other companies who use similar marketing strategies have the sense to stop for a few days to a few weeks at a time in order to make it realistic.

    The only real thing that could end tomorrow is them having the item in stock you want should they sell out before you someone pulls the trigger.

  116. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by gnarboots11
    I don't buy the 50% off retail. Who makes up this fictional retail price? Has anyone ever paid it? It's not really 50% off
    Yes, and you can see it at pretty much any retailer. Just ignore the sales signs - price is what it is. It is a somewhat decent price.

  117. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by gnarboots11
    I don't buy the 50% off retail. Who makes up this fictional retail price? Has anyone ever paid it? It's not really 50% off
    Really? Okay, maybe it is not EXACTLY 50% off retail but you cannot find any other online retailer that can compete with the RS price on IH. And what I mean by that is ask anyone employed at any large online retailer and they'll tell you tat they cannot compete with the price offered by RS on IH bikes.

    So, even if it isn't 50% off, it's still the lowest prices on IH that one could find.

  118. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by WolfnSheepsClothing
    It is certainly true that selling anything to anyone at or near your own cost is a recipe for any business to fail. This failure is not specifically due to transactions between father & son, as I have said. These are private businesses and there is nothing ethically or legally wrong with doing business within the family but there are valid business reasons why it is not a good idea to do so. It’s also my contention that bad business decisions occurred at WWCS concerning IH and some of their other brands over a long period of time that cause their failure. Some of these I have pointed out based on observation of what is publicly available.

    However, there are other bits and pieces of info I had heard but only recently have been able to confirm to my own satisfaction which contributed heavily to the failure of WWCS. I can say that there is nothing sinister about this info but it is certainly indicative of ham-fisted management and it occurred over a long period of time before the economic downturn. The info is not something that can be confirmed with published accounts but it is completely believable and seems to fit the pattern of other things we have seen from Iron Horse and WWCS. I will leave it to others to post the details if they wish.
    If IH was run in the manner that you claim then I suppose they ended up where they were heading? I am just trying to add some clarity to this, that's all.

    Selling bikes within a fraction of cost to your Son is probably not sustainable, unless you can sell immense volumes. Clearly IH was not lining up to do the latter. So, it wouldn't surprise me that they tried the RS online thing as a way to survive in a brutal economic climate and as a way to find a niche for themselves. Here's a possibility, if you can afford 2-3K for a bike is this economy then you may be the type of customer that gravitates to higher end stuff or you may want what is perceived as higher quality or better warranty. I could easily see the price driven bike consumer to bail in this economy and so I can easily see the price driven brands like IH being crushed. But that's just my speculation.

    But maybe the IH owner made all the wrong moves and did so with bad motives? If the economy is rolling along with free money then he survives, but he's not positioned well for the downturn and maybe he doesn't care? Maybe he socked all his gains away in a mattress and doesn't care about the business going forward. He could be just a guy who made his money, doesn't give a crap, and wants out. There's probably a ton of homeowners and business owners in the same position.

  119. #119
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    When you sit down and compare the IH list of component's to another leading brand, from what I've seen they are 50% off.I agree now days what does MSRP mean?? Not a whole lot but the they still are one heck of a value. If they weren't than most of you would be riding something different. Most bought because they felt they were a great value.
    Case at point compare the 5.0 to a Trek or Specialized and you'll be right at that $900 -1000 mark for something comparable. Say what you want there a great bike at a great value.

  120. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by cjsb
    If IH was run in the manner that you claim then I suppose they ended up where they were heading? I am just trying to add some clarity to this, that's all.

    Selling bikes within a fraction of cost to your Son is probably not sustainable, unless you can sell immense volumes. Clearly IH was not lining up to do the latter. So, it wouldn't surprise me that they tried the RS online thing as a way to survive in a brutal economic climate and as a way to find a niche for themselves. Here's a possibility, if you can afford 2-3K for a bike is this economy then you may be the type of customer that gravitates to higher end stuff or you may want what is perceived as higher quality or better warranty. I could easily see the price driven bike consumer to bail in this economy and so I can easily see the price driven brands like IH being crushed. But that's just my speculation.

    But maybe the IH owner made all the wrong moves and did so with bad motives? If the economy is rolling along with free money then he survives, but he's not positioned well for the downturn and maybe he doesn't care? Maybe he socked all his gains away in a mattress and doesn't care about the business going forward. He could be just a guy who made his money, doesn't give a crap, and wants out. There's probably a ton of homeowners and business owners in the same position.
    I have been posting about things that were going on long before economic conditions worsened. IH & WWCS were laying people off throughout 2008 well ahead of the economy falling. This was a direct result of the unsustainable business practices I and others have described and because of other mismanagement that I have confirmed to my satisfaction. I don't think anything was done with "bad motives", as you say. This was just bad management.

    Based on what I know, I am comfortable with my assessment that IH and WWCS would have gone under even if the economy hadn't worsened. Tying to blame the economy for companies and individuals failing is a cop out. Quite frankly, the vast majority of companies and individuals will not fail in this or any other economic down turn. Of those that do there is always a percentage that were a victim of the economy. However, the majority that fail, would likely have failed at some point, regardless of the economy, because they made bad decisions and/or were irresponsible - they were just bad companies.

    Bad companies fail when cash flow drops below a certain level and they don't have enough cash/assets to bridge the gap and/or when they grow too fast for any responsible investor to continue to fund the accumulation of debt to fund further expansion. Either/both can happen in good times or bad but good companies can weather either scenario in any economic environment if they are managed well.

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    I bought a MKIII a few months ago. First full suspension and I am enjoying it. Im a cheapo.... I was scouring for a deal. However, all of this talk about how they were being sold under cost, yadda yadda, I dont believe. The cost ended up being only slightly cheaper than a year old version of comprable Specialized and Giants at the LBS and similar to the prices of "performance" MTBs. (50% off some rediculous MSRP and then all the 10% back, 15% discount, etc etc), and still nothing was as low as bikesdirect... but I wanted the DW-link.

    Im glad I went with my IH, but disappointed I didnt look at the frame warrantee closer. I didnt realize it was limited (too many road bikes.... Im used to lifetime frame warrantees).
    RScycle treated me well, even corrected a small problem I had very quickly over the phone.

    I guess my one question would be regarding the frame warrantee.... is the MKIII considered a FS XC or FS freeride frame? (5 vs1 year warrantee?)

  122. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by milnerpt
    I bought a MKIII a few months ago. First full suspension and I am enjoying it. Im a cheapo.... I was scouring for a deal. However, all of this talk about how they were being sold under cost, yadda yadda, I dont believe. The cost ended up being only slightly cheaper than a year old version of comprable Specialized and Giants at the LBS and similar to the prices of "performance" MTBs. (50% off some rediculous MSRP and then all the 10% back, 15% discount, etc etc), and still nothing was as low as bikesdirect... but I wanted the DW-link.

    Im glad I went with my IH, but disappointed I didnt look at the frame warrantee closer. I didnt realize it was limited (too many road bikes.... Im used to lifetime frame warrantees).
    RScycle treated me well, even corrected a small problem I had very quickly over the phone.

    I guess my one question would be regarding the frame warrantee.... is the MKIII considered a FS XC or FS freeride frame? (5 vs1 year warrantee?)
    It's much closer to XC than Freeride. 5 year warranty would be my guess.

  123. #123
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    The issue of buying replacement parts and specifically linkage kits still has not been addressed. I am in need of a 7point linkage kit right now as mine has some lateral play. And I purchased my bike second hand, so as I understand it, I cannot get this kit from RS.

  124. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by 62kona
    The issue of buying replacement parts and specifically linkage kits still has not been addressed. I am in need of a 7point linkage kit right now as mine has some lateral play. And I purchased my bike second hand, so as I understand it, I cannot get this kit from RS.
    Why do you think you need a whole linkage kit? Most times it's just the bearings that are bad. They are easy to come by.

  125. #125
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    Good job!

    ihateyou,
    thank you for informing all of us of Iron Horse's relationship with Randall Scott company and their associated demise. I was not looking forward to making a 2nd Iron Horse MKIII purchase with Randall Scott company based on their lackluster customer support from my 1st mkIII purchase with them, but now you've convinced me not to buy this bike from them. Again, thank you for informing me of the situation and saving me from purchasing an overpriced 2008 Iron Horse MKIII Trail bike from a company that has already failed to support me after my first purchase from them. It just might be time to buy a bike from a company that hasn't vanished into thin air and still has integrity within the business community.
    My Iron Horse MKIII Weight Weenie Project:
    http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=468028

  126. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by wormvine
    Why do you think you need a whole linkage kit? Most times it's just the bearings that are bad. They are easy to come by.
    After taking the red link out i noticed that the hollow bolt that goes through it connecting it to the frame has some play in the red link itself. Like the hole is a little ovalized. When its all connected back up, the wheel has about 3/16"-1/4" of play. The bearings seem a little gritty, but they still feel tight. I do plan on replacing them next.

  127. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by 62kona
    After taking the red link out i noticed that the hollow bolt that goes through it connecting it to the frame has some play in the red link itself. Like the hole is a little ovalized. When its all connected back up, the wheel has about 3/16"-1/4" of play. The bearings seem a little gritty, but they still feel tight. I do plan on replacing them next.
    Gotcha! That sucks. I am really surprised that the link would ovalize being as wide as it is.
    Start a independent thread looking for a lower link. Maybe one of the ex-IH guys will have one laying around that they can sell you!

  128. #128
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    weagle seems to have everything available
    RIP Adam Yauch

    "M.C. for what I AM and do, the A is for Adam and the lyrics; true"

  129. #129
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    Thanks for the replies guys. I'll try those suggestions.

  130. #130
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    You know, there's (potentially) a great opportunity laying in wait out there for someone with a CNC machine. Kind of like what PUSH did a while back with Turner rockers and BETD UK does with a bunch of different brands parts.

    I've also noticed that there are a number of UK based online dealers who have 2009 Iron Horse's instock, including Sundays.
    Last edited by slcrockymountainrider; 03-10-2009 at 02:30 PM.

  131. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by saturnine
    weagle seems to have everything available
    How do you get ahold of Weagle? I looked for his name on here with no success.

  132. #132
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    _dw is his user name but you have to wait for him to find you, he's too important to message.
    RIP Adam Yauch

    "M.C. for what I AM and do, the A is for Adam and the lyrics; true"

  133. #133

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    IH was quite a ride but it was bound to end, I'm very familar with the company and the people. It was ALWAYS mismanaged and the efforts of many good people went for naught because of the skewed objectives and overeaching that was inherent in the management.
    Short on continuity and foresight.

  134. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by cjsb
    So, even if it isn't 50% off, it's still the lowest prices on IH that one could find.
    It a moot point when you are the ONLY retailer of IH.

    RS may have the lowest prices in IH bikes but they also have the HIGHEST prices on IH bikes!

  135. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by kapusta
    It a moot point when you are the ONLY retailer of IH.

    RS may have the lowest prices in IH bikes but they also have the HIGHEST prices on IH bikes!
    Very true. No such thing as a true apples to apples comparison any more since IH is only sold through RSCycle.

  136. #136
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    I read about this on Stormfront. Outsourcing is gay, and it sounds like this company was dissolved by greedy people who do not care about their American workers. I have an Iron Horse bicycle (hardtail) that I got as a "girlfriend bike" and my best friend had one in high school. It sure sucks if they liquidated their company and pawned all their workers and customers.

  137. #137
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    stormfront?

    I read about this on Stormfront. Outsourcing is gay

    And stormfront is a stupid, regressive hate site for whiny white people who like to think of themselves as victims. Great first post, assh*le.

    BTW, overseas production is a central part of the biking industry, and there is nothing wrong with that. Italian, Japanese and Taiwanese companies have, and do, all make great bike frames and parts.

    Now get back to that rock you crawled out from under.......

  138. #138
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    Until now I have refrained from posting to this thread even though I am rather knowledgeable of the situation and was a part of the company for 10 years. However, I personally take exception to the above post's content and ideas as well as the select words and tone used. I do not think any former Iron Horse employee would ever be proud to hear that we had the support of those on a white supremacist message board!! (btw - Hi FBI folks! Yes, I googled "stormfront + iron + horse + bikes" and that is the reason my IP address will show up on your records of those who visited there LOL)

    No job here was lost to "outsourcing". Nothing involved in outsourcing that I have seen could be viewed in a homosexual way, as you describe it.

    Iron Horse (like every single other bicycle brand) sources to some degree in Taiwan and/or mainland China. This is not some little secret. Iron Horse's collapse had zero to do with any outsourcing. In fact, I would reckon to say that the major reason Iron Horse could have grown and flourished for a period of years was directly the result of being able to competitively build product in mainland China in large quantities.

    It is currently not competitively possible to source or build complete bicycles in the United States in large quantity or at quantity price points. It is even increasingly hard to manufacture even high-end, boutique frames domestically - and I'm not even talking from a cost competitiveness standpoint. I'm simply talking about manufacturing processes and abilities. I do not expect to see this manufacturing return to the US anytime soon, if ever.

    I'm sure that it would tickle you pink to know that Iron Horse was owned by Jews, funded by Japanese guys, and was staffed by a mix of Catholics, Jews, Protestants, and even some atheists. Heck, we even employed (gasp) some black and Latino employees. Who knows, but I'm sure given the percentages that even some gays or lesbians helped grow the company over the years too. This is America. This was American business!

    -ska todd

  139. #139

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    ska todd is being too modest, he brought a great deal of passion, energy and knowledge to the company(IHBC) as any regular mtbr.comer is already aware. As always he is concerned about "getting it right" and he is certainly correct in his stance above, not a single person who ever worked for IH would want support from hate mongers.

  140. #140
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    there's a guy on ebay with a HUGE inventory of WWCS bikes and parts - like 2004 bikes in the box and oem parts. i emailed him and asked if he had purchased the liquidated inventory and he never gave a yes or no answer. he did say, however, that he still hasn't sorted through his k2 inventory. take that for what it's worth.
    RIP Adam Yauch

    "M.C. for what I AM and do, the A is for Adam and the lyrics; true"

  141. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by bacolmm
    I have already and was told that they weren't sure yet how issues for bikes purchased outside RSC would be handled. I will call them back today. This has been really frustrating as it's been going on for a long time and I was told that my frame had been shipped and was on it's way. I even went out and purchased components for it weeks ago. Ugggg!
    I talked with Nick at RSC yesterday and he told me that he doesn't have any additional information in regard to how warranty issues will be handled on bikes that were not purchased from RSC. This has been going on for 3 months. I've been patient, but this is a joke. Nick expressed some frustration at the speculation that is occurring on this forum. I can't argue that it is indeed speculation, but that's only because no one at IH or RSC has come forth with any information. Even Nick said he didn't know the status of IH and could not give me a time frame when he would. What I do know is that I purchased an Iron Horse bike with a 5 year warranty and the company has apparently gotten themselves into a position where they are not able to honor their own warranty. I'm not sure what that means but it certainly can't be good. I will continue to call RSC until I get a replacement frame or they tell me I'm out of luck. I will also continue to post updates on this site. My guess is that at some point they're going to tell me I'm out of luck. I'd also guess that if you buy an IH bike or frame from RSC you should pretty much assume that you're not getting a warranty with it. This is absolute speculation on my part, but if Nick at RSC can't (or will not) tell me the status of IH and I can't get them to honor their own warranty, if they aren't already history, they will be soon. I'm going to buy a bike from a large, established company that has a lifetime warranty on the frame and will most likely be around for a while. Right now I'm thinking it's probably going to be a Trek, but I'm going to look at Specialized and Gary Fisher as well.

  142. #142
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    Saturnine, do you have the name of the seller or store so that we can look at what he's putting up there?
    You guys wanna ride bikes?

  143. #143
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    we-sell-xs store and seller. he has mostly k2 stuff at the moment but a lot of iron horse as well. not any small parts but i think he may at least have some somewhere.
    RIP Adam Yauch

    "M.C. for what I AM and do, the A is for Adam and the lyrics; true"

  144. #144
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    "Bankrupt Iron Horse Owes $5 million"

    Great article posted on BRAIN's (Bicycle Retailer and Industry News) web site yesterday evening...The article confirms quite a bit of what has been discussed in this thread and others. The factories WWCS/IH left in the lurch are going after them and rightly so. See link for details...

    http://www.bicycleretailer.com/news/...tail/2492.html

  145. #145

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    “Since they are ICT bikes, there will need to be ICT licenses in place to make and market those bikes anywhere in the world,” Ellsworth said.
    Then Tony needs to start with others throughout the world using that linkage arrangement knowing he can't challenge their usage. Just about every company in Europe uses that linkage arrangement originally discovered by Turner, and Tony has not yet been able to challenge a single one outside of the US.

    So where's RS Cycle and where's Cliff hiding now?

  146. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    Then Tony needs to start with others throughout the world using that linkage arrangement knowing he can't challenge their usage. Just about every company in Europe uses that linkage arrangement originally discovered by Turner, and Tony has not yet been able to challenge a single one outside of the US.

    So where's RS Cycle and where's Cliff hiding now?

    I'll donate 10$ to flush them out again

  147. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by ska todd
    Who knows, but I'm sure given the percentages that even some gays or lesbians helped grow the company over the years too.
    Must...resist...obvious...joke...



    I thought you always referred to your time in college as "experimentation"?



    Sorry, couldn't help myself.

  148. #148
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    More here:

    Guess there is no question now.

    http://www.bicycleretailer.com/news/...tail/2492.html

  149. #149
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    I was happy with the deal I got on my Iron Horse, but after reading the article in Bicycle Retailer I almost feel as if I bought stolen merchandise!!

  150. #150
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    Interesting. I posted a link to this article yesterday which I think was linked to a reply much higher up in this thread. I re-posted where I intended but that post seems to have disappeared.

    Quote Originally Posted by xen179
    More here:

    Guess there is no question now.

    http://www.bicycleretailer.com/news/...tail/2492.html

  151. #151
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    I was hoping someone would bring this up!! I had heard about this too but wasn't sure enough of the details to post it.

    Quote Originally Posted by oldtymer
    Look for Cliff in Boca Raton. To all of you that were doubting this could happen this story is a repeat. Cliff did this in the late 90's with his old company Bike Rack. Same m/o just different players. Back then he screwed the bank by taking all the inventory( Iron Horse bikes) and selling them to his new company called Iron Horse Bicycles for just over cost. When the bank came to check on the inventory they never knew that they had been ripped off. Fast forward to now Cliff pretends to sell the bikes to his son Randy (Randy does not pay for them) Bike factories come to repo the inventory and suprise it is all gone. You want to know why Cliff lives in Florida? A law call the Homestead act that protects your home from being seized due to bankruptcy. He moved to Florida right before tanking Bike Rack and screwing the banks. I do not personally know Todd but I have riding buddies that do and they always said you were a stand up guy. The only one I feel bad for is Doug because he had 20 plus years working for that scumbag and he has nothing to show for it.

  152. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by WolfnSheepsClothing
    Interesting. I posted a link to this article yesterday which I think was linked to a reply much higher up in this thread. I re-posted where I intended but that post seems to have disappeared.

    If you see the thread in linear mode, those 2 posts where practically next to each other, so one of the mods took the down the second one as a "double post".

  153. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by crisillo
    If you see the thread in linear mode, those 2 posts where practically next to each other, so one of the mods took the down the second one as a "double post".
    Got it. Thanks.

  154. #154
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    Stormfront is a great community and news source. The only rock is the pebble rattling in your head. Outsourcing is stupid and hateful and draining the economy of the country that brought about modern manufacturing and assembly line work.

  155. #155
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    You have no idea. Do you really belive the crap you speak? How much stuff you own is manufactured overseas?

  156. #156
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    um wow. nazis (or the very least ns) on mtbr. sweet...

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