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  1. #1
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    Alfine 11 snuff pics

    Oops, I did it again. I broke my Alfine 8 and now I've broke my Alfine 11 the same way. The 2nd gear pawl is ruined. I guess it can't handle what I ask of it. Gearing is 32/22 and I weigh 200 lbs.

    I did have my hub skip on the last ride, I chalked it up to mud in the cassette joint. But it looks like I just smashed the pawl with too much torque.

    Anyone know the best place to get parts?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Alfine 11 snuff pics-alfine11-broken1.jpg  

    Alfine 11 snuff pics-alfine11-broken2.jpg  


  2. #2
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    Looks like that pawl was inadequately hardened. It hasn't broken, it's deformed by the look of it.
    As little bike as possible, as silent as possible.
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  3. #3
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    Is that damaged pawl on the the axle unit? If so, the Shimano tech documents have it listed down as part number Y37R98060 (see http://techdocs.shimano.com/media/te...830729562.pdf). A quick google search didn't reveal too much information on this part, so you may need to contact Shimano yourself, or get a lbs to help you out. Another option may be to try Harris Cyclery on Sheldon Brown's website - they seem to have every IGH device known to humanity.

    Alternatively, you look into Shimano doing a warranty job on the hub, although they may not be happy for this given that you have been running it below their recommended input drive ratio...

    Let us know how you get on! I have been thinking of building an Alfine 11 into a mtb with 32/22 and I also weigh in at 190lbs, so I am keen to see how this primary gear ratio works out.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinchphlat
    Is that damaged pawl on the the axle unit? If so, the Shimano tech documents have it listed down as part number Y37R98060 (see http://techdocs.shimano.com/media/te...830729562.pdf). A quick google search didn't reveal too much information on this part, so you may need to contact Shimano yourself, or get a lbs to help you out. Another option may be to try Harris Cyclery on Sheldon Brown's website - they seem to have every IGH device known to humanity.

    Alternatively, you look into Shimano doing a warranty job on the hub, although they may not be happy for this given that you have been running it below their recommended input drive ratio...

    Let us know how you get on! I have been thinking of building an Alfine 11 into a mtb with 32/22 and I also weigh in at 190lbs, so I am keen to see how this primary gear ratio works out.
    If they pull that one, I'll send you the email they sent me saying there was no lower limit

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by finch2
    If they pull that one, I'll send you the email they sent me saying there was no lower limit
    If that happens, please post the full response from Shimano for all the world to read.

    I just switched to the Alfine-11, in part because I could find no connection between their warranty and their "recommendation". One of my three rings meets their recommended ratio - is that enough?
    Stan Huntting
    Boulder County, CO at 8,500' elevation
    ICE Trice Q20/Alfine-11
    Fisher Hoo Koo E Koo
    Alan
    Trek 620

  6. #6
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    Shimano have a recommendation that you do not go below a ratio of 1.9 with the 11 speed. (It's on the Alfine 11 General Safety Information sheet SI-37R0A-002-00)

    For a 29er this gives a low of 29"

    I am not aware of a recommended minimum for the 8 speed, so if you want lower gearing the 8 speed is the way to go as far as I can see.
    As little bike as possible, as silent as possible.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velobike
    Shimano have a recommendation that you do not go below a ratio of 1.9 with the 11 speed. (It's on the Alfine 11 General Safety Information sheet SI-37R0A-002-00
    Read it again! That's NOT what it says!

    What SI-37R0A-002-00 says in the twelfth bullet under "General Safety Information" is, "It is recommended that the gear ratio of the front chain ring be set to approx. 1.9." I don't find the word "below" in there anywhere - nor the word "above" for that matter.

    I read the twelfth bullet as general help to the clueless customer who flunked arithmetic and has never heard of "gear-inches". It suggests that if you set up your bike with a ratio of 1.9 AND if you use a wheel about 26" in diameter, then the result will be a bike that is about like the average store-bought bike and about right for most people.

    There is no hint in the entire text of SI-37R0A-002-00 that the warranty is in any way dependent on that recommendation. Why do so many want to make that connection?

    Quote Originally Posted by finch2
    If they pull that one, I'll send you the email they sent me saying there was no lower limit
    Perhaps finch2 could shed some light on this by posting the full text of the email he received from Shimano? I would sure like to see it!
    Stan Huntting
    Boulder County, CO at 8,500' elevation
    ICE Trice Q20/Alfine-11
    Fisher Hoo Koo E Koo
    Alan
    Trek 620

  8. #8
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    Fair enough point, but Alfine 11s seem to be disintegrating in a way that the 8s didn't which suggests that that ratio may be a limit, not a suggestion.

    It's a small sample, but out of 3 bikes I know 2 have problems, and it is taking ages to sort.

    Be good to have this cleared up.
    As little bike as possible, as silent as possible.
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  9. #9
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    A couple of things that I have posted elsewhere, the first being that I talked to a Shimano Tech guy on the phone and he said run whatever ratio you like.

    Second is that I've only seen one Alfine 11 in action and it died very quickly. A number of Alfine 8s around here, including mine and my wife's that are going strong after three years, running low 32x22 ratios.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velobike
    Fair enough point, but Alfine 11s seem to be disintegrating in a way that the 8s didn't which suggests that that ratio may be a limit, not a suggestion.

    It's a small sample, but out of 3 bikes I know 2 have problems, and it is taking ages to sort.

    Be good to have this cleared up.
    Quote Originally Posted by presslab
    I broke my Alfine 8 and now I've broke my Alfine 11 the same way
    Maybe I wasn't that clear, but I broke my 11 the exact same way as my 8. The 2nd gear pawl in my 8 speed died as well. It did take me a while longer to kill the 8, but I wasn't as strong back then. I don't think one Alfine hub is any stronger than the other.


    Anyone have a good contact email for Shimano?

  11. #11
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    I run my Alfine on 32/21 without problems, and I had a Nexus 8 on the same ratio for years, also without problems. I prefer the Alfine to my Rohloff for feel.

    I was thinking of getting the 11, but they seem to have a jinx on them in my area. I'd like to see it in writing that the ratio doesn't matter. The hub costs too much to take a chance on it.

    If there is a limiting ratio, then the 8 is a better option for me because I need that low gear.
    As little bike as possible, as silent as possible.
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  12. #12
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    Presslab - are you going to return this hub to shimano for repair/replacement under warranty?

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by huntting

    Perhaps finch2 could shed some light on this by posting the full text of the email he received from Shimano? I would sure like to see it!
    OK then hunting...here is the email conversation edited to keep it to the point....I think I was pretty clear about what my concern was and the type of hub in question. I can't help to get the feeling that shimano really didn't understand the issue. They have been good with communication though as a lot of companies don't bother replying. Bad luck though, if you bust the hub after 2 years.

    ME
    Hi, I have never heard a definitive answer to this question I have been asking for a while. Does the Alfine hub require a minimum chainring size to avoid too much torque ont he hub?
    If so what is it? If I was to buy the new Alfine 11, and run a 26 tooth ring with say the standard 22 tooth sprocket, would this be fine?
    Cheers.

    SHIMANO
    Thanks for contacting Shimano.

    You can run any size chain ring with an internally geared hub, you will only be changing the overall gearing range.

    The Alfine 11 speed hub can be used in conjunction with our CT-S500 chain tensioner, which allows the use of two chainrings.

    I hope this is helpful, feel free to contact us again.

    ME
    Thanks, that answers my question exactly. I only ask because I currently run a Rohloff, which has very strict limitations on input torque which will void warrantee if exceeded. Could you please tell me what the warrantee on the Alfine is? Cheers.


    SHIMANO
    All Shimano bicycle components carry a minimum of two years warranty regarding the quality of workmanship and materials.

    Further information pertaining to the use of Alfine hubs-: To make the most of the gearing available it is recommended to set the gearing ratio at 1.9:1, e.g., 34:18, 39:20 or 45:23.

    The gearing range can be broadened by the addition of the CT-S500 chain tensioner and a second smaller chain ring of up to a 16 tooth difference, e.g., 44-28 - giving an effective gearing range of up to 642%.

    I hope this is helpful, feel free to contact us again.

  14. #14
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    Presslab, sorry to hear of your woes. Did this happen during a gear change or while you were already engaged in the gear ? Just curious because it looks as though it hasn't engaged fully when the power has gone down perhaps. Good luck with Shimano

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    Quote Originally Posted by finch2
    ...here is the email conversation edited to keep it to the point.

    SHIMANO:
    You can run any size chain ring with an internally geared hub, you will only be changing the overall gearing range.
    Thanks for posting that. To the best of my searching ability that is the first communication from Shimano on this subject posted on the Internet. It may not address the question as unambiguously as you or I would like, but it is something I am willing to hang my hat on, for now.

    BTW folks, I am running the Alfine-11 with the 18T cog, the CT-S500 tensioner and a triple chainring crankset: 44-32-20. That yields drive ratios of 2.4, 1.8 and 1.1 or an 11.5 gear-inch low. I also have a 23T cog that yields drive ratios of 1.9, 1.4 and 0.86 or a 9.0 gear-inch low.

    OK, stop rolling your eyes! The rest of the story is that this is all installed on a recumbent trike, set up for long distance touring. It's impossible to stand on the pedals of a bent and I'm a spinner - not a masher.

    I've only had the Alfine-11 on the road for two short road/trail rides (winter is still in command, here) and I am really happy with the close ratio shifting of the Alfine-11. Unfortunately, I'll never be able to "prove" that the Alfine-11 is happy with my drive ratio, but I promise to let this forum know if I manage to prove the negative.
    Stan Huntting
    Boulder County, CO at 8,500' elevation
    ICE Trice Q20/Alfine-11
    Fisher Hoo Koo E Koo
    Alan
    Trek 620

  16. #16
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    I guess I'll try to warranty it, although I buggered up the plastic cap as I don't have the special tool. I don't mind buying the parts if they aren't more than $200 or so.

    The skipping occurs while already in gear if I push on the pedals hard enough. I don't ever remember actually having a missed shift. The way these pawls look is different than the freehubs I have seen; they are more rounded. Looking at the ratchet ring the shape of the deformation on the pawl matches that of the ratchet ring tooth. The ratchet ring has no signs of damage.

    I don't know what I am going to do long-term after I fix it, maybe it's time for a Rohloff but I don't like grip shift at all.

  17. #17
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    Well, at least that means, that I should be fine with warranty if I damage the hub by using low gearing within first two years of use.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by presslab
    I guess I'll try to warranty it...
    Please do! And, please keep us posted on the whole process.

    For starters, will Shimano accept the return of just the guts of your Alfine-11, will they want the full custom wheel or will they ask you to chop the spokes and return the complete hub?

    Inquiring minds wait eagerly for further news!
    Stan Huntting
    Boulder County, CO at 8,500' elevation
    ICE Trice Q20/Alfine-11
    Fisher Hoo Koo E Koo
    Alan
    Trek 620

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by rekrutacja
    Well, at least that means, that I should be fine with warranty if I damage the hub by using low gearing within first two years of use.
    I think from what the rep said, the shimano waratee seems fair, but its probably best to check up on the detail if you can. Some IGH warantee exclusions will include anything that is likely to break, like pawls, threads etc.

  20. #20
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    Finch2, but there is catch 22: there is no way to know the warranty terms before i buy the hub, and when i buy it, it is already too late. Lucky Alfine 11 users" could you scan and upload all documentation you got with the hub? Warranty terms, service manual etc?

  21. #21
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    This is the internet, so I'll do a little speculation here. From their Australian site..

    Shimano warrants to the original retail purchaser that the Shimano bicycle division product for which they received this warranty, is free from non-conformities in material and workmanship for a period of two years and their Dura-Ace and XTR components are covered for a period of three years from the date of original retail purchase.

    "non conformities" may suggest that as long as things are made withing their own spec they consider it not faulty.

    Shimano bicycle product for which they received this warranty (“Shimano Product”) is
    free from defects in materials and workmanship under normal use and reasonable care
    (in the opinion of Shimano) within Australia for a period of two years

    They could just say a broken hub was abused because when checked, it was not outside their own spec. To accept fault would be to admit there were input torque conditions to adhere to, which they do not seem to think exist.

    This warranty is subject to the following conditions:
    the Shimano Product has been used in accordance with the manufacturer’s
    recommendations under normal use and reasonable care (in the opinion of Shimano) within
    Australia;

    If they thought that damage was due to misuse, I suppose you'd have to prove it wasn't, and that they have caused the issue by ignoring input torque. I have never dealt with shimano for warratee before and have no reason to think they wouldn't treat customers fairly here, but I'd feel I was taking a risk getting this hub. I am also keen to see what the result of your warrantee claim is Preslab.

  22. #22
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    Hey Presslab,
    What happened with this? Did you get a warranty replacement from Shimano? Or did you buy parts and fix it yourself?
    Cheers,
    P

  23. #23
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    Well I've been lazy no doubt. I tried to get the parts, Shimano said they are not available at all.

    I did call up the warranty guy and the he said incredulously, "Let me get this straight, you broke the hub and now you want to warranty it??"

    He said I could send it in and they would look at it. Since then I've been waiting to find a box that is large enough to fit the whole wheel and hub into, but I'm not holding out hope that they will warranty it.

    In the mean time I have built up a new rear wheel with 1x10 components and it just works...

  24. #24
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    I would find somebody with an CNC machine to just make a new part. You could use better material and have them make extras.
    Quote Originally Posted by a stoned guy with a beer in his hand eyeballing your sisters bike
    "i fit my bike to fit me;not for looks...nice did you buy that bike from jc whitney?" Stoner Island 1984

  25. #25
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    Funny you should mention that, I have a CNC mill! I don't have the skillz to copy a part like that though, and it would need to be cromoly steel and hardened. If I paid someone to make that part I could buy a couple Alfine 11s...

    If Shimano does warranty it, I'm either selling it or I'll throw it on the shelf for some future cruiser bike project.

  26. #26
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    Too bad you couldnt just scan the part and push copy. :P
    Quote Originally Posted by a stoned guy with a beer in his hand eyeballing your sisters bike
    "i fit my bike to fit me;not for looks...nice did you buy that bike from jc whitney?" Stoner Island 1984

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by presslab View Post
    "Let me get this straight, you broke the hub and now you want to warranty it??"
    What an odd response. Do you think they get many people sending things in under warranty which aren't broken?!

  28. #28
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    Wow!

    Quote Originally Posted by presslab View Post
    Oops, I did it again. I broke my Alfine 8 and now I've broke my Alfine 11 the same way. The 2nd gear pawl is ruined. I guess it can't handle what I ask of it. Gearing is 32/22 and I weigh 200 lbs.

    I did have my hub skip on the last ride, I chalked it up to mud in the cassette joint. But it looks like I just smashed the pawl with too much torque.

    Anyone know the best place to get parts?
    That is some amazingly detailed photography.

    I'm impressed. No way my Canon Elph could capture that.

  29. #29
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    Pawl Damage

    Your gear is below the recommended 1.9 minimum ratio. Officially published as an "approximate" ratio and we have inferred it from the Shimano available Alfine chainrings and cog sizes.
    With the exeption of Rohloff and NuVinci, IGHs should not be ridden standing up on the pedals.
    The pawls and other shift mechanisms are just too dang small to handle this kind of load on steep hills! This has been my experience overhauling IGH for the last 21 years.

    Great picture, btw. Is that pawl on the axle? Just one, right? It looks similar to the Alfine 8. I have not yet "stripped" an Alfine 11 for my website because we have not ordered in the oil yet. We sold one today and I will have the customer bring it in in a few months (1000km) to inspect and change the oil as recommended by Shimano. (Hmm....just like a new car first oil change after 500 miles!) Then I will post an exploded lay-out on my website.

    I will warn him about standing on the pedals!

    It should also be noted that loose axle nuts can cause shifting malfunctions. 30-35 foot-pounds is the recommended torque for IGH nuts. Grease the threads well and check weekly!

    --

    Sincerely,
    Aaron Goss
    President & Master Mechanic

    Aaron's Bicycle Repair, Inc.
    6527 California Avenue SW
    Seattle, WA 98136

    (206) 938-9795



    Quote Originally Posted by presslab View Post
    Oops, I did it again. I broke my Alfine 8 and now I've broke my Alfine 11 the same way. The 2nd gear pawl is ruined. I guess it can't handle what I ask of it. Gearing is 32/22 and I weigh 200 lbs.

    I did have my hub skip on the last ride, I chalked it up to mud in the cassette joint. But it looks like I just smashed the pawl with too much torque.

    Anyone know the best place to get parts?

  30. #30
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    It sounds like you have a llot of direct experience on IGH's, but the 1.9 ratio is not a torque limit according to shimano. See my previous post.

  31. #31
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    As a bike shop, we have access to much more information than is posted online or available to the consumer.
    The Shimano 2011 Dealer Support Manual has mor information about their IHG (Shimanon calls them Internal Hub Gears).
    There are different torque minimums for vertical and horizontal dropouts. Perhaps that is why there is such a variation of experience out there. I have posted the minimums on my website. Ride Your Bike dot com. Click on the IGH Service Link (upper right) and scroll down to find the spreadsheet.

    The generalized approximate suggestion of a gear ratio of 1.9 is for a typical terrain. Since most USA (and world) cities are fairly flat, this works. For hilly cities (Seattle, SF, West Portland, etc) the standard gear ratio does not work. In those cities, a more robust hub should be used. It is not so much the elevation gain, but the steepness of the hills that gets you in trouble. Seattle has many short steep hills. It also has many "ride-around routes" of less steep hills. Take those with an IGH (IHG).

    Hope this helps!

    Cheers, Aaron Goss
    Aaron's Bicycle Repair, Inc.

    It should be noted that the staff at Shimano is not as well trained as some bike shops (my shop and Harris, for example). In fact, we actually train their staff on occassion!

    Support and trust your LBS.

  32. #32
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    @aaronsbicyclerepair - could you post the link to the spreadsheet you are referring to, I just had a look on your site but could not see it. thanks.

  33. #33
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    Aaron, what you say makes sense, especially since my conversation with shimano left me a little unsure of their knowledge. After what you have said, and my impressions of the hubs when geared low (from other users here), i think I'll stick with my rohloff. I have that very steep terrain that you mention.

  34. #34
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    This is a very interesting thread.
    Aaron, thanks as always for sharing your depth of knowledge on this - there are few who have the experience with IGH's as you do, so your input is nice to have.

    I guess I've been lucky so far - I've ridden a Nexus 8 and an Alfine 8 (with 2:1 ratios) on some pretty steep grades (16%-20%) without incident. I've also done some moderately technical single track on a cyclocross-type setup (also 2:1) with quite a bit of high torque, out of saddle cranking on very steep terrain. Again, no issues. For context, I'm 190-195 lbs (awas 225 lbs in the Nexus days) and ride 175-180mm cranks,

    I have recently purchased an Alfine 11 with the intent to incorporate it into my Singular Gryphon build, which I intend to use for EVERYTHING, from urban commuting to loaded offroad touring/bike packing as well as recreational single track.
    This thread startled me because it was my understanding (marketing BS, perhaps) that the 11 speed hub was allegedly a more robust design (a la Rohloff) than the 8 (helical gears, oil bath, etc), and was specifically aimed at the offroad market as an alternative to Rohloff.

    So, I'm watching the topic with great interest, and a touch of disappointment that the Alfine 11 may not be all that it has been portrayed to be. I'd hate to incorporate a $600 hub into a wheel only to risk blowing it up on a hill.

    FWIW, I have a really hard time understanding the concept that the hub was designed for "flat cities" - why the huge range, then?. If the hub were truly designed for flat terrain, it would not need 400+% range. Also, it seems like a stretch to assume that "standing on the pedals" would not be considered reasonable for torque parameters when designing he hub - assuming the input ratio is acceptable. Just a thought.

    Cheers,
    Michael
    Last edited by canyoneagle; 08-16-2011 at 02:39 PM.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by aaronsbicyclerepair View Post
    Your gear is below the recommended 1.9 minimum ratio. Officially published as an "approximate" ratio and we have inferred it from the Shimano available Alfine chainrings and cog sizes.
    With the exeption of Rohloff and NuVinci, IGHs should not be ridden standing up on the pedals.
    The pawls and other shift mechanisms are just too dang small to handle this kind of load on steep hills! This has been my experience overhauling IGH for the last 21 years.

    I will warn him about standing on the pedals!
    Is any of this indicated in Shimano's customer-facing documentation? Especially the part about not standing on the pedals which is such a normal part of cycling.


    Quote Originally Posted by canyoneagle View Post
    FWIW, I have a really hard time understanding the concept that the hub was designed for "flat cities" - why the huge range, then?. If the hub were truly designed for flat terrain, it would not need 400+% range. Just a thought.

    Cheers,
    Michael
    Flat but very windy cities?

  36. #36
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    Ah, I had so hoped the Alfine-11 would be a viable alternative to the more expensive Rohloff.
    But if I can't gear it right down for fully loaded touring or be allowed to stand on the pedals(!), I guess I'd better keep saving & buy the local Rohloff option over the Big-S.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by aaronsbicyclerepair View Post
    ...I will warn him about standing on the pedals!

    Sincerely,
    Aaron...
    How F'ing stupid will this sub-forum get? Only stand on Rolhoffs and Nuvincis, WTF, he's got to be pulling our legs...or just a fool....

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by aaronsbicyclerepair View Post
    As a bike shop, we have access to much more information than is posted online or available to the consumer....For hilly cities (Seattle, SF, West Portland, etc) the standard gear ratio does not work. In those cities, a more robust hub should be used. It is not so much the elevation gain, but the steepness of the hills that gets you in trouble. Seattle has many short steep hills. It also has many "ride-around routes" of less steep hills. Take those with an IGH (IHG).
    Sheez, you gotta be kidding, can't ride an Alfine up a paved road in Seattle, hmmm, getting kinda silly....

    Hope this helps!
    Helps me understand your knowledge base....Secret Shimano info, LOL, now you're just making stuff up.

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    IGH and Standing on Pedals

    The primary problem we have seen with IGHs over the years is improperly adjusted cable tension. That alone can lead to failure and is indeed, very common!
    The second problem is internal failures of the shift mechanisms or clutches or planets or sun gears due to too much torque. Yes, standing on the pedals on a 20% grade (common in Seattle) can damage the hubs. I have personally done it as have many of my customers. That is why we advise them to take it easy. Use Chineese low gear. (get off and push!)

    IGH are best used seated. Americans ride differenty than our European friends. In Europe, IGHs were primarily used on utility or city bikes in flat cities. Americans are used to derailleurs and like to ride much faster and resist getting off an walking. They ride IGH the same way and in my opinion, this is why we are seeing so many problems with IGH. That and the lack of skilled mechanics willing to work on or understand them.

    According to Shimano, none of their hubs are suitable for off road use. Short steep grades increase the torque, as does standing on the pedals.
    Shimano IGH hubs fatal flaw is that they use a single (or in some gears just 2) pawls to transfer all the load. Modern Sturmey-Archer hubs have the same problem. SRAM hubs have 2 points on a sliding key which are designed to fail. Hubs we have found very durable are the SRAM P5. It uses 6 fixing points on the axle for the sun gear.

    Yes, bike shops get more information than the consumer. Our rep delivers us a Dealer Maual every year. It is a giant 300 page 3 ring binder with sales and technical information (and wholesale prices for service parts). It is not secret, but it is not online.

    The gear calulation spreadsheet is on my website under the IGH Service button in the upper right corner. I cannot post links until my post count gets over 10 on this forum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aaronsbicyclerepair View Post
    The primary problem we have seen with IGHs over the years is improperly adjusted cable tension. That alone can lead to failure and is indeed, very common!
    Aaron - I'd like to hear more about this. Outside of ensuring the correct indexing (yellow marks in 4th gear on the Alfine/Nexus 8, for example) and smooth routing, what other things do you recommend looking out for that would contribute to the cable tension issue?

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    I think the idea that you shouldn't stand on the pedals is a bit silly. There are a lot of people in the UK who have been off-roading on Alfine 8 equipped bikes for years now with no problems, and I'm pretty sure they all stand up on their pedals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nogod View Post
    I would find somebody with an CNC machine to just make a new part. You could use better material and have them make extras.
    That little sucker look like a pain.... I would use a block of material finished to the right hardness and wire EDM it out.....
    CDT

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    Quote Originally Posted by aaronsbicyclerepair View Post
    Yes, bike shops get more information than the consumer. Our rep delivers us a Dealer Maual every year. It is a giant 300 page 3 ring binder with sales and technical information (and wholesale prices for service parts). It is not secret, but it is not online.
    If this information actually exists in written form and if someone should physically posses such a document, a scan and post would be most welcome of previously unknown and unreleased official Shimano documentation stating they will not warrantee their IGHs for:
    1) off-road use or
    2) if used below a stated minimum input ratio or
    3) if the consumer stands to pedal

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    I notice Aaron hasn't addressed his claim of no standing and special routes to avoid hills. LOL, I guess my Alfine 8 is clueless....

    Aaron,scan and post the pages that instruct riders not to stand on the pedals....
    Last edited by pursuiter; 08-17-2011 at 06:36 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aaronsbicyclerepair View Post
    ...IGH are best used seated. Americans ride differenty than our European friends. In Europe, IGHs were primarily used on utility or city bikes in flat cities. Americans are used to derailleurs and like to ride much faster and resist getting off an walking.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paco Loco View Post
    I think the idea that you shouldn't stand on the pedals is a bit silly. There are a lot of people in the UK who have been off-roading on Alfine 8 equipped bikes for years now with no problems, and I'm pretty sure they all stand up on their pedals.

    I guess those UK riders didn't get Aaron's memo....

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    It does appear that Shimano has specifically recommended the 1.9 input ratio in the Technical Service Instructions.

    Note the 6th bullet in the "Notes" section on the left side of the document.

    http://techdocs.shimano.com/media/te...9830728103.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by pursuiter View Post

    Aaron,scan and post the pages that instruct riders not to stand on the pedals....
    Pursuiter , I totaly agree with you that it is important to post links when we claim stuff like that on the Interwebz . You should do it too.
    "There is a big difference between kneeling down and bending over" -FZ

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    Quote Originally Posted by canyoneagle View Post
    It does appear that Shimano has specifically recommended the 1.9 input ratio in the Technical Service Instructions.

    Note the 6th bullet in the "Notes" section on the left side of the document.

    http://techdocs.shimano.com/media/te...9830728103.pdf
    yep, that is the figure everyone is referning to. The problem is that they don't state that it is a torque limit regarding damage tot he hub. In fact when questioning shimano I was told it was jsut a prefered ratio for gearing (like Aaron said) in normal terrain, and I could gear as low as I wanted with no limits. If Aaron could post up the wording in his tech doc stating otherwise, that would settle it.

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    The "no standing on pedals" is my official shop recommendation for riding in hilly seattle.
    It applies to all IGH not just Shimano. On steep hills standing and pulling hard on the handlebars, dramatically increases the torque on the hub! I cannot post links until I get 10 posts on this forum.
    I will scan the image but since I cannot post links you will have to go to my web page and look under the pictures menu and click on Aaron's Picasa, you will find it there as Shimano Alfine Info Page.jpg. It is from the 2011 Shimano Total Information Dealer Support Manual. As you can see, Shimano has very specific recommendations of cog size and chainring size. Shimano ALWAYS recommends that their parts be used as a group. STI has become an acrynom for road brake/shifters but it originally stood for Shimano Total Integration. They state often in their documentation that if you use other parts or even mix non-recommended Shimano parts that performance will suffer and you may void any warranty. Therefore, I calculated the minimum gear ratios from this document.
    My email from my local Shimano Rep, "From my understanding the hub is most definitely not intended to be used off road. It will eventually get damaged."
    Finally, answering canyoneagle's question about cable routing. Always use full length housing. We recommend die-drawn smooth stainless cables and 5mm housing with metal SIS ferrules and lubricatded with a dry lube like Bike-Aid (aka DriSlide). The stock Shimano cable is not die drawn and the stock housing is 4mm with one plastic ferrule (sometimes 2). Shimano recommends their green grease. The stock set-up is fine for a year or so.

    Cheers, Aaron Goss
    Aaron's Bicycle Repair, Inc.
    RideYourBike (dot) com

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    Quote Originally Posted by aaronsbicyclerepair View Post
    I will scan the image but since I cannot post links you will have to go to my web page and look under the pictures menu and click on Aaron's Picasa, you will find it there as Shimano Alfine Info Page.jpg. It is from the 2011 Shimano Total Information Dealer Support Manual. As you can see, Shimano has very specific recommendations of cog size and chainring size.
    The page Aaron scanned can be found at Shimano Alfine Info Page, but don't get your hopes up for anything like the "very specific recommendations" that Aaron describes.

    If I were to read that page as anything other than a sales pitch I would abandon all hope of my Alfine-11 surviving my installation. For example:
    1) I use Egg-beater pedals - clearly not compatible!
    2) I use a Truvative crankset - clearly not compatible!
    3) I use a Planet Bike headlight - clearly not compatible!
    4) ... and on and on.

    That "Dealer Support Manual" page contains far less specific information than the one sheet of documentation that is packaged with the hub and which has been quoted here ad nauseum.

    Come on, Aaron, if you have something to contribute that is new to the user community it's time to show your cards. If you just want to whine about there being yet-another-IGH that you will someday have to stock parts for ... Well, you have our sympathy, but don't ask us to regard you as an "expert" on the Alfine-11.

    BTW, I have changed the oil on TWO Alfine-11s. Does that make me twice as expert as you?
    Stan Huntting
    Boulder County, CO at 8,500' elevation
    ICE Trice Q20/Alfine-11
    Fisher Hoo Koo E Koo
    Alan
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    If I were to read that page as anything other than a sales pitch I would abandon all hope of my Alfine-11 surviving my installation. For example:
    1) I use Egg-beater pedals - clearly not compatible!

    Pedals do not matter, don't be silly!
    2) I use a Truvative crankset - clearly not compatible!
    Compatible only if you use the specified chainring sizes! Again, don't be confrontational!
    3) I use a Planet Bike headlight - clearly not compatible!
    Whatever!
    4) ... and on and on.
    Nope!
    That "Dealer Support Manual" page contains far less specific information than the one sheet of documentation that is packaged with the hub and which has been quoted here ad nauseum.

    That is just one page. I am not going to scan the entire chapeter which encompasses all the consumer info and much more including part numbers, wholesale prices for all the parts, and exploded diagrams and disassembly instructions including how to use the tools.

    Go look at it at your LBS if they will show you!

    Come on, Aaron, if you have something to contribute that is new to the user community it's time to show your cards. If you just want to whine about there being yet-another-IGH that you will someday have to stock parts for ... Well, you have our sympathy, but don't ask us to regard you as an "expert" on the Alfine-11.

    You sir, are being the whiner. I do not mind stocking parts. Where did you get that idea? I stock more IGH parts than any shop in the USA than perhaps Harris. I ENJOY it, that is why I am here trying to help. But folks like you turn folks off to online forums. Why am I even helping if I get abuse? And for the record, I have overhauled about 20 or 30 Nexus and Alfine 8 and not a single 11 since the oil is still out of stock at our supplier and Shimano! The gust appear very similar to the 8.

    BTW, I have changed the oil on TWO Alfine-11s. Does that make me twice as expert as you?
    Yep, you are the boss![/QUOTE]

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    Quote Originally Posted by aaronsbicyclerepair View Post
    Pedals do not matter, don't be silly!
    Precisely! Nor does the selection of chainring. It's only the bias you bring to that document that suggests that the chainring recommendation carries any more weight than the pedal recommendation!

    Quote Originally Posted by aaronsbicyclerepair View Post
    That is just one page. I am not going to scan the entire chapeter ...
    Fine! Just show us the part about not standing on the pedals or perhaps something that suggests a "limit" or "minimum" to the chainring/sprocket ratio.

    Quote Originally Posted by aaronsbicyclerepair View Post
    And for the record, I have overhauled about 20 or 30 Nexus and Alfine 8 and not a single 11 since the oil is still out of stock at our supplier and Shimano!
    Amazing! I have sitting before me a one-liter can of "SG-S700 OIL", replete with detailed instructions, Shimano logos and all the "Shimano American Corporation" info. Want to buy some? Shimano SG-S700 Oil for Alfine 11 at eBikeStop.

    Quote Originally Posted by aaronsbicyclerepair View Post
    The gust appear very similar to the 8.
    I haven't a clue what that is meant to say.
    Stan Huntting
    Boulder County, CO at 8,500' elevation
    ICE Trice Q20/Alfine-11
    Fisher Hoo Koo E Koo
    Alan
    Trek 620

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    Not standing on the pedals is our shop recommendation, not from Shimano. Obviously some riders can get away with it, but in general you should remain seated. This is true of all IGH hubs except NuVinci and Rohloff, which have both solved the axle rotation problem. Nexus and Alfine (but maybe not the 11) are probably durable enough for this but still the axle can rotate, especially with vertical drop-outs, hence the limit Shimano shows. by listing smaller sprockets than for horizontal drop-outs.
    Our input ratios were calculated from the teeth count Shimano offers. Why else would they list specific tooth counts? The "horizontal" cogs will fit the "vertical" hub!

    All the oil and first run of 11 speed hubs were bought up online (mostly by Harris). We now have the oil on order, but it was out of stock for quite some time. Such is the era of online sales I guess, the consumer gets it first before the bike shop!

    ....the gust..... I meant the "guts" stripping an 11 speed should be no more work than an 8 speed. We have all the special SECRET DEALER (just kidding) tools on hand and are ready, should anyone have any problems. We also have the axle assembly ordered from Shimano and can fix the hub that started this tread!

    It sure would be nice if they just offerd the pawls!

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    Quote Originally Posted by aaronsbicyclerepair View Post
    2) I use a Truvative crankset - clearly not compatible!
    Compatible only if you use the specified chainring sizes! Again, don't be confrontational!
    It sounds to me like you are using "specified" when "recommended" or "suggested" would be more appropriate judging by what the Shimano documentation implies (i.e. that the recommended gearing choice is suggested so that the average rider have the best spread of usable gearing).
    Sure Shimano wants you to use their stuff just like all the electronics you own probably have that meaningless line in the instructions saying to replace the batteries only with their house brand batteries.

    If something as normal as standing to pedal or use in a very hilly city were in danger of damaging the hub (even with Shimano's recommended gearing choice) you'd think they'd have designed-in some way to protect the hub, a torque limiting clutch or something.

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by aaronsbicyclerepair View Post
    ...Nexus and Alfine (but maybe not the 11) are probably durable enough for this but still the axle can rotate, especially with vertical drop-outs, hence the limit ...
    If the axle rotation issue were taken out of the formula, would that -in your opinion- help alleviate some of the risk?
    I think it would be pretty straightforward to fabricate a torque arm that is interfaced with one of the anti-rotation washers.
    I have some 1/8" stainless flatstock sitting around and have contemplated the idea of doing just that. I've ordered an extra set of the anti-rotation washers to play around with.

    I have seen a couple of examples of homemade torque arms for the Alfine hubs, and like the idea - particularly for vertical dropouts.

    Thoughts?

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by aaronsbicyclerepair View Post
    We also have the axle assembly ordered from Shimano and can fix the hub that started this tread!

    It sure would be nice if they just offerd the pawls!
    So do you have this Alfine 11 axle assembly in hand or just on order? How much did it cost?

    When I asked Shimano (a few months back) they said this part was not available.

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    Thanks Aaron for all your advice so far. It has made me rethink (in a good way) IGH's. I plan to buy a bike with an IGH for winter riding so your experiences with rebuilding and conditioning hubs certainly out weighs a few argumentative opinions. Don't let a few naysayers stop you from contributing to this board.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blakcloud View Post
    Don't let a few naysayers stop you from contributing to this board.
    Yeah don't let them keep you from replying to my question... Do you have the axle, or are you blowing smoke?

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    Quote Originally Posted by presslab View Post
    Yeah don't let them keep you from replying to my question... Do you have the axle, or are you blowing smoke?
    Calm down. It's quite reasonable to expect Shimano would sell certain parts to dealers only and not individuals. Aaron has been posting useful information here.

    Out of curiosity, Aaron, what is the maximum torque you would consider putting on an Alfine hub? "Don't stand on the pedals" is good general advice, but what would make more sense is an actual torque value. The ratios you've calculated from the Shimano dealer manual are also not enough, because they don't consider things like rider weight or crank length, unfortunately.

    I would think a light rider (150 lbs) on average cranks (170 mm) with a "road" gear ratio (42/18 or 7/3) would be able to stand on the cranks in the lowest gear. If I calculate it out:

    150 lbs is 667 N.
    667 N at 17 cm is 113 N m.
    113 N m is reduced to 48 N m after the chain gearing.
    48 N m is increased back to 91 N m after going through the hub gears in their lowest ratio.
    (Edit: With less rounding this is actually slightly over 92 N m)
    (Edit 2: Whoops, we only need the difference between the torque on the sprocket and the final torque, which is 92 minus 48 or 44 N m)

    So, is 44 N m too much on an axle even with the appropriately torqued axle nuts and non-turn washers in a vertical drop out situation? What about on the hub itself (which bears the full 92 N m torque)? Where would you draw the line?
    Last edited by `Orum; 08-30-2011 at 02:37 AM.

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    Until I see a clearcut statement from Shimano that clears this up, I'll give more weight to the word of someone like Aaron who has practical experience of fixing hubgears over any amount of internet theoreticians.

    The hubs are breaking, that much is clear.

    (BTW I notice that on the European site, the Alfine hubs are not listed in the mtb section, but in the "comfort" bike part of their site. I could make a few inferences about suitability from that.)
    As little bike as possible, as silent as possible.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velobike View Post
    Until I see a clearcut statement from Shimano that clears this up, I'll give more weight to the word of someone like Aaron who has practical experience of fixing hubgears over any amount of internet theoreticians.

    The hubs are breaking, that much is clear.
    I completely agree. Shimano should be telling the end user far more than they are. Until then, hands on experience is the best we're going to get.

    Quote Originally Posted by Velobike View Post
    (BTW I notice that on the European site, the Alfine hubs are not listed in the mtb section, but in the "comfort" bike part of their site. I could make a few inferences about suitability from that.)
    This makes sense. If you look at the spreadsheet hosted at the shop's website, he infers from the dealer documentation that the minimum ratio (that is, chainring/sprocket ratio) is higher on the 11 speed than the 8. So, it wouldn't surprise me that they're breaking more easily than the 8s.

    Also, I've attached a spreadsheet to simplify my earlier calculations. I also added a "fudge factor" to account for people pulling up on the handlebars or suddenly pushing themselves up on the pedals. It's in a format that can be opened with LibreOffice or OpenOffice (Edit: Google Docs also accepts this format, if you don't have one of the previous programs installed).
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by `Orum; 08-30-2011 at 02:32 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Velobike View Post
    (BTW I notice that on the European site, the Alfine hubs are not listed in the mtb section, but in the "comfort" bike part of their site. I could make a few inferences about suitability from that.)
    Or it could just be the way they prefer to market their product over there where IGH is already mostly used for commuter/comfort bikes and there's a built in market expectation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Corporal Punishment View Post
    Or it could just be the way they prefer to market their product over there where IGH is already mostly used for commuter/comfort bikes and there's a built in market expectation.
    Maybe, or more likely CYA. They don't want to stir up the EU bureaucrats

    Just to add a contrary light to what I have said, the Shimano distributor in the UK is Madison who own the Genesis mtb brand and they supply some of these bikes with Alfines, and with lower ratios than 1.9

    We need to hear what's ok to use on these hubs from the horse's mouth.
    As little bike as possible, as silent as possible.
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  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by `Orum View Post
    Calm down. It's quite reasonable to expect Shimano would sell certain parts to dealers only and not individuals. Aaron has been posting useful information here.
    Okay, Mr. FirstPostEver, I'll calm down. This is my thread, buddy, I'll be upset if I want to! What makes you think I am upset anyway? Aaron has a slightly blowhardish air to him, just seeing if he can put the money where his mouth is. Not sayin' he is, I've been giving him the benefit of doubt so far.

    I did go through a local bike shop to request those parts. It's quite possible they are available now and they weren't when I requested them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Velobike View Post
    Maybe, or more likely CYA. They don't want to stir up the EU bureaucrats
    Ha! That could definitely be true!

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    I guess Shimano is just to friendly by using the words:"specified, recommended or suggested".
    They need to talk like you talk to 2-3 yr olds: DO NOT..., STAY OFF..., etc.
    Do they have to rule out missuse like:
    Don't put the hub in the dishwasher for cleaning, don't drive your car over it, don't throw it of a cliff...in a warranty document???
    Some bikers mounted the Alfine hubs on their mtb and some seemed to work.
    Soon everyone assumes the 11 hub is a Rohloff copy.
    Well it surely isn't one, they don't 'recommend' off-road use.
    I read people running the Alfine hub 32/22.
    That's because Shimano uses Unobtanium, a rear metal found on a distant planet?

    Nothing against trying this igh on a mtb.
    But if something goes wrong because someone did'nt follow the recommendations, don't be dissapointed, take the loss and try something else.
    Perhaps I'll try an Alfine 11 in the future, but I would stay on the safe side of that 1,9/1 ratio...and for heavy off-road use I'd take the Rohloff.

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    Hmmm, I'm almost glad I'm a twig. At ~180, I stand up all the time on my A8. I've run 42/16 on the road and 32/20 off road. I've ridden it a few thousand Km's now with zero issues. Just did the oil bath a few months back. All is good.

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    You guys are silly. I had an Alfine 8 on my Freeride bike for almost 3 years, dozens of days and hundreds of runs at Whistler. And it was fine.
    It grew up in Boulder (pic 1) in 5 degree weather and a foot of snow (and ...umm some elevation).
    Then moved to Seattle rain (and 'hills')
    It did a 100 mile century race: Buffalo Classic 100 mi on a Knolly Freeride bike 9/13/09 - YouTube
    It outlasted a Marzocchi 66 180mm travel fork, and the Mavic 823 rim it was laced too. And recently I snapped the Rock Shox Vivid shock...and still the Alfine was fine.
    I've done most of the blacks and double blacks at Whistler with it, and all of the jump trails, including Freight Train, Crabapple hits and the Boneyard (and a million runs down A-line and Dirt Merchant).
    I can leg press 800lbs and dunk a basketball, and I weigh 198lbs yesterday plus gear.
    I stand all the time on the Alfine. You just have to shift smoothly, and not 'muscle it' like a retard.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Alfine 11 snuff pics-boulder003b.jpg  

    Alfine 11 snuff pics-05-29-11_whistler01-b.jpg  

    Alfine 11 snuff pics-bline_launch2-b.jpg  

    Alfine 11 snuff pics-glcdrop-b.jpg  

    Alfine 11 snuff pics-whistlershock-012b.jpg  

    Regional Race Manager, Knolly Bikes
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    Quote Originally Posted by rdhfreethought View Post
    I stand all the time on the Alfine. You just have to shift smoothly, and not 'muscle it' like a retard.
    I've only had my alfine 8 for a few months, but that's EXACTLY the impression I have. I also stand on mine a lot too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Corporal Punishment View Post
    I've only had my alfine 8 for a few months, but that's EXACTLY the impression I have. I also stand on mine a lot too.
    Oh, and I forgot to mention. The shifter cable will occasionally stretch. Pay close attention to shifting vagueness, This means its not exactly lined up. If you power and try to switch gears, and the shifter is out of alignment, you are destined to rip teeth up. And things will only get worse from there.

    Also, it shifts sluggishly in really cold weather (10-15F or so). So either change to lighter oil, or be real careful during shifting (to avoid that terrible grinding sound).
    Regional Race Manager, Knolly Bikes
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  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by rdhfreethought View Post
    I can leg press 800lbs and dunk a basketball, and I weigh 198lbs yesterday plus gear.
    I stand all the time on the Alfine. You just have to shift smoothly, and not 'muscle it' like a retard.
    Another self-proclaimed internet expert here, I see. Look at that shock, you must have bottomed that pretty hard. You just have to set the damping properly, and not turn the knobs like a retard.

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by presslab View Post
    Another self-proclaimed internet expert here, I see. Look at that shock, you must have bottomed that pretty hard. You just have to set the damping properly, and not turn the knobs like a retard.
    Oh, but you see I am an expert...that is your first mistake. Physics major at UC San Diego, and doctorate in NYC. I have been riding bikes since before you were in diapers. You claim to be an engineer? If you knew anything about materials science, you would know that the most likely failure on a nearly 3yo shock (on a freeride bike) is due to fatigue and NOT misuse or misadjustment of the shock.

    The second mistake is that even if your claim is true, that I never learned how to adjust my shock correctly, then it still holds that the Alfine handled all this misuse and abuse. Hence, my original point is actually strengthened by your accusation.

    Hey, I have an idea! Why don't you try to contribute something to the thread from actual experience, like I have. Instead, you just look like a fool trying to flame people for no reason and attacking their knowledge and experience, when you actually have no idea with whom you are talking or what their exerience is with the part in question.
    Regional Race Manager, Knolly Bikes
    Washington, Oregon, Montana, Idaho, Wyoming

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by rdhfreethought View Post
    Hey, I have an idea! Why don't you try to contribute something to the thread from actual experience, like I have.
    How about you go back and read post #1. Thanks for the laugh, dude.

  74. #74
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    What happens when an IGH "breaks"

    So here's a question for you IGH users out there, and Aaron if he's not so pissed off that he's given up on us

    When you abuse your IGH by standing up on a 25% grade using a 20/36 sprocket ratio , does the gear you are in cease to function or does the entire hub cease to function? I'd feel better about taking a chance on an IGH if I knew I wouldn't be stranded somewhere. (Yeah, I know, just swap the wheels on my Pugs -- let's say I don't want to be "out there" on a single speed if I can help it.)

    Enquiring minds want to know.

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by empire_builder View Post
    does the gear you are in cease to function or does the entire hub cease to function?
    You will lose a couple speeds if the failure is a pawl, and you can still use others. If the cable breaks you will be stuck in the hardest gear on the 11, or the easiest on the 8.

    There would be no reason for a professional such as Aaron to not respond. Either he hasn't looked at this thread, or he doesn't actually have the axle.

  76. #76
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    Fyi I've been running a Nexus red band hub on a 29er since summer of 06. I ride trails, go off moderate jumps, tour fully loaded, and ride through the salty freezing Minnesota winter every year. There is probably a literal mile of fakie riding, and easily 100 wheelie miles on it as well. I run 2:1, keep it adjusted, and shift smart. I have zero problems. I own another Nexus red band and an Alfine 8, both of which I run the same ratio and have no problems.

  77. #77
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    Yep, I've had two Alfine 8's with absolutely no trouble whatsoever, for years. And an Alfine 11 with skipping problems in the upper range from day one. The durability and design of the 8 is not in question here, it is well proven. This thread is about the 11. I even took my bike to with the 11 to Shimano's headquarters in Irvine, CA, and left it with them to diagnose for a few days. They fiddled with the adjustment a bit. When I got it back, it was the same as when I took it to them.
    JW

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    I think we need a count up of how many 11's have had problems, how many are still going strong after having had some MTB mileage, what gearing was used & if it broke - what were the symptoms.

    I'll start with mine - 300miles running 32/18, 2nd gear unusable.

  79. #79
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    200miles
    32/18 (Primary drive) 20/30 (Final drive) - Gearbox bike
    3rd gear slips, just the once, after a gear change, but only sometimes.

    I always reduced pedaling force before changing gears and don't pedal out of the seat. Yellow marks are perfectly aligned.

    I hope it will last for my wallets sake but don't hold out much hope. Price wise and for more reliability I may have to go back to an 8-speed if it gets much worse.
    Last edited by pipe; 09-30-2011 at 01:48 AM.

  80. #80
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    For the price of two Alfine11 you can have one for the rest of your life.


    Just sayin'
    "There is a big difference between kneeling down and bending over" -FZ

  81. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by pipe View Post
    Gearbox bike
    Hmmm, tell us more!
    My first guess was the Zerode, but I thought those only used the 8-speed versions.
    Your own design?
    Pictures?

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by evrac View Post
    Hmmm, tell us more!
    My first guess was the Zerode, but I thought those only used the 8-speed versions.
    Your own design?
    Pictures?
    Close. Kind of. From New Zealand at least. Not my design, but lucky enough to be involved with the project to get one early on. We have made two and there are two more in production. Not looking to hijack the thread so check out this RM thread if you haven't already (I'm sure I've seen you in this thread in the past evrac?). post #755

    Check out the Picassa album here



    Fokof, I assume you are referring to a Rohloff yeah? We looked at this option as I had one from a previous bike that was pretty reliable. Problem is I really didn't like the grip shift. Also with the position of the hub in my bike it becomes too wide once you include the shifting box. But for running in the rear wheel it gets my vote despite the grip shift over the Alfine. However I don't think I'd run one in the rear wheel except for commuting anyway.

    It is incredibly frustrating how unreliable these hubs are turning out to be. May end up trying to make the rohloff work after all. To be fair to shimano they are just commuting hubs I guess. Affordable, reliable, trigger shift hubs are holding back gearbox bike innovation in my opinion.

  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by pipe View Post
    Close. Kind of. From New Zealand at least. Not my design, but lucky enough to be involved with the project to get one early on. We have made two and there are two more in production. Not looking to hijack the thread so check out this RM thread if you haven't already (I'm sure I've seen you in this thread in the past evrac?). post #755

    Check out the Picassa album here



    Fokof, I assume you are referring to a Rohloff yeah? We looked at this option as I had one from a previous bike that was pretty reliable. Problem is I really didn't like the grip shift. Also with the position of the hub in my bike it becomes too wide once you include the shifting box. But for running in the rear wheel it gets my vote despite the grip shift over the Alfine. However I don't think I'd run one in the rear wheel except for commuting anyway.

    It is incredibly frustrating how unreliable these hubs are turning out to be. May end up trying to make the rohloff work after all. To be fair to shimano they are just commuting hubs I guess. Affordable, reliable, trigger shift hubs are holding back gearbox bike innovation in my opinion.
    Hey Pipe, that's rad. Yes of course I'd seen that before on RM. Nice ride. The input ratio seems not too bad at 1.78:1. I wonder if with two chains if you could up-gear the primary and then down-gear the secondary. This would spin-up the hub and reduce the torque on it. I was hoping that in a gearbox application it would almost eliminate the strange side-loading that a rear hub is subject to, and as such it would last longer. I guess I was wrong. Also, it seems many had problems in second gear, but yours is higher. I wonder if it has to do with the cable setting changing as the suspension cycles. Might try removing the shock, compress the suspension, and then check the orange shift mark.

    Just trying to brainstorm.

    Steve

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    Some good ideas there Steve. Although I'm pretty much trapped on the 32t chain ring since any bigger and it would interfere with the swing arm. Also I was getting the slipping just pedaling up a road so not sure that it would be a suspension issue. But I will check, thanks.

  85. #85
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    My buddy and I run 2 Pugsleys with 32T x 21T Alfine 8s. They get hammered and have been used for fully loaded dirt touring in the mtns. 3yrs+ service so far so good.

    My touring bike has an Nexus 8 [53T x 23T] and I hammer off every light and up every hill. Going on 3yrs it's been rock solid.

    Those are only 3 data points, but they are the 3 I care about!

    I'll be abusing my Alfine 11 with a low input ratio and lots of out of the saddle hammering as well. I'll report back with what happens.
    safe riding,

    Vik
    www.thelazyrando.com

  86. #86
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    Shimano came through for me, big time. Here is a big shout out to Stephen at Shimano's HQ in Irvine, CA, who got my guts replaced with the latest version under warranty. Thank you Steve! Last January I brought it to him, and left it for a few days for him to play with the shift adjustment and see if he could improve it from how I had it. Unfortunately, the answer was no. In the meantime, the skipping condition steadily got worse, so I took it back to him last week, and he got me taken care of. This is with him knowing that I run 34 - 23 gears on a 29'er and ride hard.

    So for now, I'm very happy. I'll have a short term, initial ride report in a week or so, and then again in a few months.
    JW

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    I now have been running my replacement hub for 3 weeks after the Shimano importer to the UK replaced the original after 2nd gear died - see above ^ somewhere. Had a few clicks & crunches but all seems OK after the fine adjustment required for a good 2nd & 10th which took a few up & down the range sweeps. The adjustment marks are pretty much in line, the rotating mark is <0.2mm or so lower than the fixed mark with the setting that seems to work. When they work, these hubs are smooth & quiet but here's me with my fingers crossed that it keeps on this way which I don't feel too comfortable with TBH.

  88. #88
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    so. i am building a commuter frame / fork as we speak. my question is do i go ahead and continue with my alpine 11 setup plans? or should i consider something else. my plan was to lace up an 11 to a 700c chukker while using a nexas internal generator front hub w/ the chukker as well. have used hydro brazeons for shift cable and was hoping for a really nice commuter package. now... i have read this and am totally confused if the a-11 is a p.o.s. or not. sitting here scratchin my head. @ this point in my life i am looking to get back & forth to the shop... every other bike i have is a singlespeed.... never a problem.

  89. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by rbemiss View Post
    so. i am building a commuter frame / fork as we speak. my question is do i go ahead and continue with my alpine 11 setup plans? or should i consider something else. my plan was to lace up an 11 to a 700c chukker while using a nexas internal generator front hub w/ the chukker as well. have used hydro brazeons for shift cable and was hoping for a really nice commuter package. now... i have read this and am totally confused if the a-11 is a p.o.s. or not. sitting here scratchin my head. @ this point in my life i am looking to get back & forth to the shop... every other bike i have is a singlespeed.... never a problem.
    Unless I'm mistaken here, the context of this discussion is Alfine 11 in heavy mountain biking use.
    As a commuter hub, the Alfine 8 has established itself as a very reliable hub, and the 11 seems to have a similar track record so far. I have put over 8.000 commuting miles on Nexus/Alfine 8 speed hubs with 0 issues - I would not hesitate (personally) in using an Alfine 11 on my commuter.

    If you are planning on taking the hub off road (especially with a lower than recommended input ratio - # of chainring teeth / #of cog teeth), then this discussion might help.

    For commuting, I'd say go for it! But hey, I'm only one voice among many.

    On a side note, since you are also going with the Alfine Dynamo up front, I've had no problems with mine so far - one year of daily commuting in all weather conditions. I'm running Supernova E3 lighting with it.

  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by canyoneagle View Post
    Unless I'm mistaken here, the context of this discussion is Alfine 11 in heavy mountain biking use.
    As a commuter hub, the Alfine 8 has established itself as a very reliable hub, and the 11 seems to have a similar track record so far. I have put over 8.000 commuting miles on Nexus/Alfine 8 speed hubs with 0 issues - I would not hesitate (personally) in using an Alfine 11 on my commuter.

    If you are planning on taking the hub off road (especially with a lower than recommended input ratio - # of chainring teeth / #of cog teeth), then this discussion might help.

    For commuting, I'd say go for it! But hey, I'm only one voice among many.

    On a side note, since you are also going with the Alfine Dynamo up front, I've had no problems with mine so far - one year of daily commuting in all weather conditions. I'm running Supernova E3 lighting with it.
    thanks for the input... i will continue with my project. again, i apprechiate your time.

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