Wobble Naught Bike Fit in Boise- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Wobble Naught Bike Fit in Boise

    Has anyone had the complete Wobble Naught bike fit done at Dowtown George's? I recently had my cleats installed after some knee problems and I have to be honest here, I thought the guy that did the fitting was a JERK! The guy spoke to me as if I were some ignorant kid who couldn't possibly comprehend anything he were trying to tell me. He would tell me about Pro riders traveling from around the world seeking out his expertise and I am simply a recreational rider. C'mon!

    I think I really need a complete fit, but Im not sure what the total expense will be if I have to buy a new crank or stem etc. And, I dont think I could sit through an entire fitting with this guy. Did I catch him on a bad day or is he always like that? Any feed back is appreciated.

  2. #2
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    Not worth it?

    I recently read that these high tech custom fittings are not worth the price for mountain bikes. For road bikes, I suppose they are warrented if you have the money or are super competitive/picky. But for mountain bikes, you just need to be close. Playing around with stem, seat, handlebar settings may do a lot more for you. I can guarantee you that if I went into Georges with my Heckler, they would say it is too small for me and I need a larger frame with a longer stem. BS. For my riding style, my bike fits me perfectly. For someone else of my size, it would suck. Just my 2 cents.
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  3. #3
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    I had this done a few years back at IMT on a new Klein. It takes a while to get the right stem, seat and post but I could tell a difference immediately after my first ride. No more pain in the knees, no more wondering if the seat was in the right spot. I would highly recommend this. If you get it done once and then you can carry it over to all of your bikes.

  4. #4
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    I second Zebdi's response

    I considered a Wobble Naught fit. I asked a good friend of mine who's a 24 hour racer who had a Wobble Naught fit who recommended I NOT get it. This was based on the fact that 3 hard XC hours in the saddle caused no joint/back/hip/shoulder/knee/ankle/whereever pain whatsoever once I got a good fit.

    I would say that if you can probably adjust your ride to avoid the joint pain yourself. When I talked to him the Wobble Naught guy acted like he was god's gift to bike fit and I basically told him to stick it.

    If you're looking for a pretty good fit (one I've I used on 1 HT, 1FS and 1 SS) look at Ned Overend's book (I think it'a called "How to Mountain Bike Like a Champion" or something like that) - I used his guide to get a pretty good fit that I'm only modified by millimeters to get a fit that causes no pain.
    Nobody cares what kind of bike you ride.

  5. #5
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    did it on the road bike

    I did break down and get a complete w-naught fit on my road bike a couple of years ago. I was having serious, lasting knee pain in my left leg after every ride. Turns out that my saddle was too high, too far back, and my cleats were positioned all wrong. One ride after the fit and *poof*, the knee pain vanished. I'd say that unless you're having some sort of knee/hip/leg/ankle/back/etc... pain that lasts long after a ride and is keeping you off the bike, you probably don't *need* a fit.

    As for the guy doing the fits, Tom (I think that's his name) is an *interesting* fellow. I think he comes across like he talks down to everyone when it comes to things cycling-related (unless you're a pro), so don't take it personally.

  6. #6
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    Obviously it's easy to bash someone hiding behind a keyboard; no one knows the true intent of a poster. That said....

    Tom Coleman is considered rather eccentric by those who know him, by those who are cornered by him to talk about his product and by those who are caught in lengthy converstaions they wish they were never part of. His system has helped many riders but his ego is so big he won't accept the fact that it's been ineffective, if not detrimental, to many. I've spoken to at least 10 who have had Wobble Naught "installed" by Tom personally (he used to have others do it and would blame any negative results on his contract labor), and they said it was crap. This includes some racers whose names appear in the top 20 or national events. Racers who say he messed them up big time, and they went back to their self-adjustments with greater success.

    I asked many of them why they used it. They said Tom just gloms on to them and they accept it to basically shut him up. A few recreational riders have complained of discomfort and pain AFTER Tom set them up in some "racer" position.

    I asked a few of them if they are still using it even though they're on his collage of riders at George's or his Web site. Some said no. Some would no comment. But he does have a bunch of pros on their. I wonder how much of it is marketing and/or BS.

    But sometimes it's not about getting rid of pain. His system is supposed to increase power and comfort. Many have said his system is good but they admitted not knowing a darn thing about bike setup. Those who have had years of experience setting their bikes up and then tried Wobble Naught for one reason or another said it made no difference in anything; this includes a SRM meter test, what I feel to be the most realistic and scientific in getting "results" for bike fit.

    Take a look at his page: http://www.wobblenaught.com/testimonials.asp
    I know for a fact many on his testimonial page do not use the product today. The testimonial from Chris Fox... why not give credit to the bowl of Wheaties he ate or the song he listened to instead of the almighty Wobble Naught. Marketing.... geez. And are we really going to trust what Shawn Grossman has to say? Heeeey, heeeey, heeeey.

    Tom does talk down to many. I rarely go into George's but when I do he's workin' the phones and dealing his product. Good for him. I wonder why Cooley keeps him around. But I'd rather put my money into Brian Grieger's hands or go to someone trained in the CTS method (whom Tom says tried buying him out). I don't know if Tom has a science or anatomy background (Brian doesn't for what that's worth, but he has national race experience and that's gotta count for something, being around the best). Heck, I don't even know if Tom's ever raced a bike.

    I was offered Wobble Naught for free years ago. I went through the initial process but never completed it. I have never recommended it and do my best to avoid the guy.
    Last edited by danK; 03-07-2005 at 10:14 PM.

  7. #7
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    Great Thread!

    I wanted to post on this one, but hesitated because I actually have sort of a "friendship" with Tom. I tend to be overly patient when it comes to listening to somebody who has something to say. Tom's got many - let just say - very strong opinions.

    Let's turn this around and see if we can help Boise_peddler out.

    If you want a Pro Fit - I second danK's suggestion of Brian's Pro Bike - what you can expect from Brian is honesty with experience, very refreshing.

    If you want to try and fit on the cheap, this is my "in the ballpark fit".

    Start with the Saddle - level it out, put it in the center of the saddle rails.

    Next I adjust the saddle height - sit on the saddle with your right crank in the five o'clock position, adjust your saddle height so that with your leg extended you can just touch the pedal with your heal.

    Next adjust your saddle fore/aft so that you knee is positioned over your pedal spindle when the crank arm is in the three o'clock position.

    Next adjust your reach - you want a bend in your elbows - raise/lower/roll your bars to something that is comfortable for your back.

    Last I heard World Cycle offers a one time purchase of stems. You buy one and trade out stems until you get the right size you need.

    Ride On

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    And whatever you do, adjustments/changes have to be made in small increments. I believe anything over 10mm of pure saddle height can lead to knee discomfort. I can only imagine trying to change height, fore/aft, and stem all at one time whether in big chunks or not.

    FYI, Brian's # is 939-1705. You need to make an appointment, and it is a 25 minute drive out to his place. Well worth it.

  9. #9
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    Thanks for the feedback guys. I have actually done the "do it yourself" fitting as described above. The reason I am considering a complete fit is due to ongoing knee pain that developed while riding. I think it was mostly due to my cleat positioning. The problem began in October of last year and it still feels as if my knee won't make it through the season. I have a road bike that I put many miles on and may just opt to be fitted to it. My main concern with the complete fit is cost. Im not certain if I go in, will I be told my bike it the wrong size. Will I need to puchase a new $175 dollar crank?(internet price) New stem? There is simply no telling how much the total cost would be on top of the bike fit cost. But, if I dont go this route, does it mean not riding? I would pay almost anything to not have that happen. (even though I am "just a recreational rider")

    As far as my comments about Tom. My intent for this thread was as mentioned above, not to simply bash him. However, the impression that guy left on me was HUGE! To be completely honest, that has resulted in my indecision to have the complete fit done. I wasn't sure if he was the only guy in town offering this service or not. Obviously this guy has a reputation. This has left me questioning George's bike shop as well. Why would they want a guy like that involved with their shop?

    Anyway, thanks for the tip on Brian. I will give him a call and see what he can do for me.

    Happy riding to all.

  10. #10
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    I wouldn't question George's. They're just a highend "chain" shop that charges retail or retail-plus. Mike Cooley is smart; probably doesn't/can't fill the small space with inventory that Tom occupies. May as well stick the fat dude in the corner (used to be THERE when you walked in... how inconvenient) and collect some rent.


    Quote Originally Posted by Boise_pedaler
    Thanks for the feedback guys. I have actually done the "do it yourself" fitting as described above. The reason I am considering a complete fit is due to ongoing knee pain that developed while riding. I think it was mostly due to my cleat positioning. The problem began in October of last year and it still feels as if my knee won't make it through the season. I have a road bike that I put many miles on and may just opt to be fitted to it. My main concern with the complete fit is cost. Im not certain if I go in, will I be told my bike it the wrong size. Will I need to puchase a new $175 dollar crank?(internet price) New stem? There is simply no telling how much the total cost would be on top of the bike fit cost. But, if I dont go this route, does it mean not riding? I would pay almost anything to not have that happen. (even though I am "just a recreational rider")

    As far as my comments about Tom. My intent for this thread was as mentioned above, not to simply bash him. However, the impression that guy left on me was HUGE! To be completely honest, that has resulted in my indecision to have the complete fit done. I wasn't sure if he was the only guy in town offering this service or not. Obviously this guy has a reputation. This has left me questioning George's bike shop as well. Why would they want a guy like that involved with their shop?

    Anyway, thanks for the tip on Brian. I will give him a call and see what he can do for me.

    Happy riding to all.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boise_pedaler
    Thanks for the feedback guys. I have actually done the "do it yourself" fitting as described above. The reason I am considering a complete fit is due to ongoing knee pain that developed while riding. I think it was mostly due to my cleat positioning. The problem began in October of last year and it still feels as if my knee won't make it through the season. I have a road bike that I put many miles on and may just opt to be fitted to it. My main concern with the complete fit is cost. Im not certain if I go in, will I be told my bike it the wrong size. Will I need to puchase a new $175 dollar crank?(internet price) New stem? There is simply no telling how much the total cost would be on top of the bike fit cost. But, if I dont go this route, does it mean not riding? I would pay almost anything to not have that happen. (even though I am "just a recreational rider")

    As far as my comments about Tom. My intent for this thread was as mentioned above, not to simply bash him. However, the impression that guy left on me was HUGE! To be completely honest, that has resulted in my indecision to have the complete fit done. I wasn't sure if he was the only guy in town offering this service or not. Obviously this guy has a reputation. This has left me questioning George's bike shop as well. Why would they want a guy like that involved with their shop?

    Anyway, thanks for the tip on Brian. I will give him a call and see what he can do for me.

    Happy riding to all.
    I've had surgery on both of my knees due to overuse injuries. I thought that I would have to retire from cycling at age 25, but luckily a friend told me to try out some Speedplay Frog pedals. I had always used Shimano and Time pedals, so I was a little reluctant but I felt that I would try anything to ride again.

    Basically, the Speedplay pedals don't have any 'self-centering' feature to their float, which is perfect for people with bad knees. It turns out that the self-centering float was adding stress to my knees at some point during my pedal stroke. Now that I ride on the Speedplays, I can see my heel naturally move left and right (uninhibited) throughout the pedal stroke, which I never noticed before.

    The initial feel of the Frog pedals is like your foot is rotating on an ice rink. It drove me nuts for the first week or so! However, the body must build stronger 'supporting' muscles in your calves or something because I don't have the sensation any longer.

    One other great thing about these pedals is the fact that perfect cleat positioning is not as critical as Shimano, Speedplay, Eggbeaters, etc due to the fact that the pedal isn't trying to center your foot.

    I'd give them a shot. It can't hurt! Good luck.

    Oh, by the way. My friend went to Wobble Naught and has already purchased three frames, all of which he said didn't fit him properly. I think it might be a better idea for road bikes, but I'm not confident in the necessity for mountain.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by danK
    And whatever you do, adjustments/changes have to be made in small increments. I believe anything over 10mm of pure saddle height can lead to knee discomfort. I can only imagine trying to change height, fore/aft, and stem all at one time whether in big chunks or not.

    FYI, Brian's # is 939-1705. You need to make an appointment, and it is a 25 minute drive out to his place. Well worth it.
    I talked to Brian about fit and wobblenaught several years ago. He didn't say anything bad about Wobblenaught, but that he could fit someone to their bike using his trained eye, hanging weights, etc, and claimed to be pretty darned good. I don't doubt it for a second.
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  13. #13
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    My $.02

    When I started riding a lot about a million years ago (actually the mid-80's), I read up on bike fit (Lemond's book primarily) and used that as a baseline. I've also tried the Serotta Fit-Kit system but what I've come to find is that everyone has different physiological "quirks" as well as riding styles that they need to adjust for. For example, I'm bow-legged, duck footed, born without ACL's, damaged LCL's and MCL's as a result and have scoliosis. I used everything I read as a baseline and went from there and adjusted my fit on the bike in very tiny increments to get the position I have today. I did do the Wobblenaught fit but it didn't fit my physiology (what works for 99% of the riders out there that are "normal" does not necessarily work on this flip, if y'all know what I mean). I went back to my old tried and true settings...
    As an extra note on the Wobblenaught fit I got. It was free and I did try it but it never felt comfortable for me and my riding style. When people asked me for feedback, I gave it to them. Tom heard about my feedback and got pissed and actually confronted me... I told him that the answer IS what it IS... I also think that it maybe a good baseline for folks just like the Lemond's book was for me... but do NOT consider it as the end-all to bike fit... Continue tweaking...

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by flipnidaho
    When I started riding a lot about a million years ago (actually the mid-80's), I read up on bike fit (Lemond's book primarily) and used that as a baseline. I've also tried the Serotta Fit-Kit system but what I've come to find is that everyone has different physiological "quirks" as well as riding styles that they need to adjust for. For example, I'm bow-legged, duck footed, born without ACL's, damaged LCL's and MCL's as a result and have scoliosis. I used everything I read as a baseline and went from there and adjusted my fit on the bike in very tiny increments to get the position I have today. I did do the Wobblenaught fit but it didn't fit my physiology (what works for 99% of the riders out there that are "normal" does not necessarily work on this flip, if y'all know what I mean). I went back to my old tried and true settings...
    As an extra note on the Wobblenaught fit I got. It was free and I did try it but it never felt comfortable for me and my riding style. When people asked me for feedback, I gave it to them. Tom heard about my feedback and got pissed and actually confronted me... I told him that the answer IS what it IS... I also think that it maybe a good baseline for folks just like the Lemond's book was for me... but do NOT consider it as the end-all to bike fit... Continue tweaking...
    Getting pissed is easier than listening to constructive criticism.

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    Substance over accusation

    You have made a list of accusations but there is no support for your comments. Tom's personality is nothing more than that .. his personality. Start with the assumption that the wobblenaught fit is based on sound science; if you don't agree with this comment please provide information as to why. Tom can easily provide you if the data used to produce the equations used to determine the 'fit."
    1. Provide the names of the ten people that have been fit and said it's crap. More importantly can they quantify why the "fit" was crap? It is easy for mediocre athletes to blame their equipment for their shortcomings.
    2. Please provide data to support the claim that the "fit" messed them up big time.
    3. Please provide data to support your accusation that Tom blamed any party that provided Tom with "contract labor" and provide the negative results.
    4. Give me the name of any successful racer that got fit because they couldn't say NO (you've got to be kidding me -- are you in third grade).
    5. IF you have questions as to whether a racer posted on the website or on Tom's bulletin board is still using the fit, ask.
    6. As for testimonials, see comment 5 above.
    7. Nice rip at Shawn Grossman .. you're a class act.
    8. I fail to see how whether a person races is dispositive on the success of a fit system. Do you really think that every invention must come from one at the front of the industry? Could a lab geek design a running shoe used by the top runners or should running shoe design be limited to world class runners?

    My point is that criticisms of the wobblenaught fit, as you present them, lack any substance. I have yet to hear why the science used is inappropriate. I was fit a few years ago. My riding has improved. When I was fit I was a sport rider. Within two years I won the wild rockies series as an expert. Last year I won two races as a pro. I am currently ranked 10 nationally as an expert.

    I have no problem with people that don't want to be fit or don't think the fit is 'right' for them. If you choose to discredit someone at least support your accusations. It is very easy to bash something 'new'. Historically people have been killed for proposing new theories and ideas .. they are easy targets. I try to remain open to comments and I have yet to hear anyone substantiate why the wobblenaught fit is faulty.

  16. #16
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    Wow, your very first post on mtbr and you go straight to this thread. Hmmm. Wonder if the WobbleNaught sponsored rider was asked or told to do so by The Village Idiot? As for your list of "prove its" (aside from #7 because that guy is totally whacked) do you think anyone is going to waste their time debating an old thread for a newbie mole?

    "Yeah, that was me. Go ahead. Burn my bridge in the sponsorship world."

    I have yet to find proof Santa Claus isn't real and doesn't climb down my chimney, but I know he's not and doesn't. But I'm sure I can find an elf who will back up the claims.


    Quote Originally Posted by jcgould
    You have made a list of accusations but there is no support for your comments. Tom's personality is nothing more than that .. his personality. Start with the assumption that the wobblenaught fit is based on sound science; if you don't agree with this comment please provide information as to why. Tom can easily provide you if the data used to produce the equations used to determine the 'fit."
    1. Provide the names of the ten people that have been fit and said it's crap. More importantly can they quantify why the "fit" was crap? It is easy for mediocre athletes to blame their equipment for their shortcomings.
    2. Please provide data to support the claim that the "fit" messed them up big time.
    3. Please provide data to support your accusation that Tom blamed any party that provided Tom with "contract labor" and provide the negative results.
    4. Give me the name of any successful racer that got fit because they couldn't say NO (you've got to be kidding me -- are you in third grade).
    5. IF you have questions as to whether a racer posted on the website or on Tom's bulletin board is still using the fit, ask.
    6. As for testimonials, see comment 5 above.
    7. Nice rip at Shawn Grossman .. you're a class act.
    8. I fail to see how whether a person races is dispositive on the success of a fit system. Do you really think that every invention must come from one at the front of the industry? Could a lab geek design a running shoe used by the top runners or should running shoe design be limited to world class runners?

    My point is that criticisms of the wobblenaught fit, as you present them, lack any substance. I have yet to hear why the science used is inappropriate. I was fit a few years ago. My riding has improved. When I was fit I was a sport rider. Within two years I won the wild rockies series as an expert. Last year I won two races as a pro. I am currently ranked 10 nationally as an expert.

    I have no problem with people that don't want to be fit or don't think the fit is 'right' for them. If you choose to discredit someone at least support your accusations. It is very easy to bash something 'new'. Historically people have been killed for proposing new theories and ideas .. they are easy targets. I try to remain open to comments and I have yet to hear anyone substantiate why the wobblenaught fit is faulty.

  17. #17
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    Why don't you provide all of these answers as to why wobblenaught is sooo good. Go ahead, let us here it. Waste your time researching it. Let it fall on deaf ears. Congratulations on all your accomplishments. We are all very impressed that wobblenaught brought you these victories. You must be very proud. We bow down.

    If you have a fit problem, get it fixed. If you don't, just ride. Bicycle fit is not rocket science.

    Quote Originally Posted by jcgould
    You have made a list of accusations but there is no support for your comments. Tom's personality is nothing more than that .. his personality. Start with the assumption that the wobblenaught fit is based on sound science; if you don't agree with this comment please provide information as to why. Tom can easily provide you if the data used to produce the equations used to determine the 'fit."
    1. Provide the names of the ten people that have been fit and said it's crap. More importantly can they quantify why the "fit" was crap? It is easy for mediocre athletes to blame their equipment for their shortcomings.
    2. Please provide data to support the claim that the "fit" messed them up big time.
    3. Please provide data to support your accusation that Tom blamed any party that provided Tom with "contract labor" and provide the negative results.
    4. Give me the name of any successful racer that got fit because they couldn't say NO (you've got to be kidding me -- are you in third grade).
    5. IF you have questions as to whether a racer posted on the website or on Tom's bulletin board is still using the fit, ask.
    6. As for testimonials, see comment 5 above.
    7. Nice rip at Shawn Grossman .. you're a class act.
    8. I fail to see how whether a person races is dispositive on the success of a fit system. Do you really think that every invention must come from one at the front of the industry? Could a lab geek design a running shoe used by the top runners or should running shoe design be limited to world class runners?

    My point is that criticisms of the wobblenaught fit, as you present them, lack any substance. I have yet to hear why the science used is inappropriate. I was fit a few years ago. My riding has improved. When I was fit I was a sport rider. Within two years I won the wild rockies series as an expert. Last year I won two races as a pro. I am currently ranked 10 nationally as an expert.

    I have no problem with people that don't want to be fit or don't think the fit is 'right' for them. If you choose to discredit someone at least support your accusations. It is very easy to bash something 'new'. Historically people have been killed for proposing new theories and ideas .. they are easy targets. I try to remain open to comments and I have yet to hear anyone substantiate why the wobblenaught fit is faulty.
    "Every time I see an adult on a bicycle, I no longer despair for the future of the human race." - H.G. Wells

  18. #18
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    Why get fit?

    The Wobblenaught fit places the rider in a position to maximize muscle and movement efficiency. While a bicycle fit is not rocket science, a Wobblenaught fit will put you in a position that, barring personal limitations such as limberness, pre-existing conditions or (back or joint problems), allows for the most efficient effort. As for my accomplishments, I included thiose because earlier posts questioned results of a wobblenaught fit. I appreciate your acknowledgement.
    Quote Originally Posted by zebdi
    Why don't you provide all of these answers as to why wobblenaught is sooo good. Go ahead, let us here it. Waste your time researching it. Let it fall on deaf ears. Congratulations on all your accomplishments. We are all very impressed that wobblenaught brought you these victories. You must be very proud. We bow down.

    If you have a fit problem, get it fixed. If you don't, just ride. Bicycle fit is not rocket science.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcgould
    As for my accomplishments, I included thiose because earlier posts questioned results of a wobblenaught fit.
    There's one testimonial down and only 9 more to go to fill your quota. I guess we'll also need to see some supporting data as you mentioned earlier. Graphs would be nice.
    "Every time I see an adult on a bicycle, I no longer despair for the future of the human race." - H.G. Wells

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    It's unfortunate that the Wobblenaught's position of 'maximum muscle and movement efficiency' places the rider in a position that is completely impractical and unsafe for anything other than road racing and XC racing.

    He's fit two of my riding buddies in this extreme XC race-like positioning with 15-20 degree negative-rise stems and very stretched out reaches, both of which completely killed their downhill abilities on anything other than paved surfaces. You should have seen the precarious position that they were in when braking downhill. Between the fork dive and the near drop-bar type positioning it was a collarbone crunching crash waiting to happen. And no, their terrible downhill positioning had nothing to do with their amount of limberness or lack of ability.

    Needless to say, they are both back to their regular handlebar and stem positions. The only thing that they have kept is the cleat and seat positioning.

    Sure it may be efficient while climbing or on the flats (like most World Cup XC and Short Track XC today), but it was completely worthless when it came to 'real' mountain bike riding.






    Quote Originally Posted by jcgould
    The Wobblenaught fit places the rider in a position to maximize muscle and movement efficiency. While a bicycle fit is not rocket science, a Wobblenaught fit will put you in a position that, barring personal limitations such as limberness, pre-existing conditions or (back or joint problems), allows for the most efficient effort. As for my accomplishments, I included thiose because earlier posts questioned results of a wobblenaught fit. I appreciate your acknowledgement.
    I stopped driving my bike into my garage - I'm now protected with Roof Rack Ranger app for my iPhone.

  21. #21
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    Give the noobie a break. He bought into something and he's convinced it did him some good. More power too him. It's not my crack to smoke.
    Nobody cares what kind of bike you ride.

  22. #22
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    The fit wasn't about making me more aerodynamic on the bike but being balanced on the bike. It has allowed me to use my leg muscles more efficiently, noticeably my gluts. My fit resulted in a shorter stem with an increased angle (upwards) thereby moving weight off my front wheel.
    It sounds like my fit did the inverse of the fit your friends received as far as weight on the front wheel or being balanced on the bike. I have never done a World Cup race so I can't comment on the technical nature. In my opinion the NORBA national series has technical descents on the XC courses and I think my fit helps with my descending. I'm not sure what "real" mountain bike riding includes but I ride faster and under more control now than prior to my fit. I like my fit. If there was an aspect of the fit that I felt hindered my riding I would change but that is not the case. I realize that other people have differing opinions.

    Quote Originally Posted by bikerx40
    It's unfortunate that the Wobblenaught's position of 'maximum muscle and movement efficiency' places the rider in a position that is completely impractical and unsafe for anything other than road racing and XC racing.

    He's fit two of my riding buddies in this extreme XC race-like positioning with 15-20 degree negative-rise stems and very stretched out reaches, both of which completely killed their downhill abilities on anything other than paved surfaces. You should have seen the precarious position that they were in when braking downhill. Between the fork dive and the near drop-bar type positioning it was a collarbone crunching crash waiting to happen. And no, their terrible downhill positioning had nothing to do with their amount of limberness or lack of ability.

    Needless to say, they are both back to their regular handlebar and stem positions. The only thing that they have kept is the cleat and seat positioning.

    Sure it may be efficient while climbing or on the flats (like most World Cup XC and Short Track XC today), but it was completely worthless when it came to 'real' mountain bike riding.

  23. #23
    Unicycles are for clowns
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    This thread seems to point to the fact I have seen alot lately, that Boise has a lot of bike snobs in town.

    Quote Originally Posted by bikerx40
    It's unfortunate that the Wobblenaught's position of 'maximum muscle

    Sure it may be efficient while climbing or on the flats (like most World Cup XC and Short Track XC today), but it was completely worthless when it came to 'real' mountain bike riding.
    'real' mountain biking, how would you describe it? Last time I rode the trails in Boise they have been changed in the last 10 years and gotten easier and can be ridden with fully rigid ss. What was the last World cup race your rode?

  24. #24
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    Cheap shot

    First, I'm not sponsored by Wobblenaught and I responded on my own accord. I feel very strongly that if someone is going to make negative or derogatory claims they should be able to support such. Clearly someone in the newspaper business should be aware of the damage such remarks can cause. At the same time if there is merit in want you write please provide. I doubt you can but if your claims are true then it would be beneficial information. Simply put it is cowardly to make damaging statements without support them and that is why I included my last name with my post. You of all people should know this.

    Quote Originally Posted by danK
    Wow, your very first post on mtbr and you go straight to this thread. Hmmm. Wonder if the WobbleNaught sponsored rider was asked or told to do so by The Village Idiot? As for your list of "prove its" (aside from #7 because that guy is totally whacked) do you think anyone is going to waste their time debating an old thread for a newbie mole?

    "Yeah, that was me. Go ahead. Burn my bridge in the sponsorship world."

    I have yet to find proof Santa Claus isn't real and doesn't climb down my chimney, but I know he's not and doesn't. But I'm sure I can find an elf who will back up the claims.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuna
    This thread seems to point to the fact I have seen alot lately, that Boise has a lot of bike snobs in town.
    'real' mountain biking, how would you describe it? Last time I rode the trails in Boise they have been changed in the last 10 years and gotten easier and can be ridden with fully rigid ss. What was the last World cup race your rode?
    Please help me understand how my observation of my riding buddy's positioning and their corresponding loss of riding ability somehow makes me a snob. It's a simple observation that will forever turn me away from his fitting technique as it applies to trail riding.

    I used the term 'real' mountain biking to describe anything other than racing today on NORBA National or World Cup courses, both of which are such poor excuses for the sport of 'Mountain Biking' that they could just as easily be ridden on cross-bikes. From the looks of it, most top pros are riding just that- 2x9 geared bikes, upside-down stems, 18-spoke wheels, nearly rigid suspension forks, and 1.7" tires. The last NORBA National that I raced in at an Expert level was Seven Springs.
    I stopped driving my bike into my garage - I'm now protected with Roof Rack Ranger app for my iPhone.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikerx40
    Please help me understand how my observation of my riding buddy's positioning and their corresponding loss of riding ability somehow makes me a snob. It's a simple observation that will forever turn me away from his fitting technique as it applies to trail riding.

    I used the term 'real' mountain biking to describe anything other than racing today on NORBA National or World Cup courses, both of which are such poor excuses for the sport of 'Mountain Biking' that they could just as easily be ridden on cross-bikes. From the looks of it, most top pros are riding just that- 2x9 geared bikes, upside-down stems, 18-spoke wheels, nearly rigid suspension forks, and 1.7" tires. The last NORBA National that I raced in at an Expert level was Seven Springs.
    I said after reading this thread not your comment alone. I don't like it when people type comments that read to as though they are more in the know than others. Some of the Norba and World cups have gotten eaiser, but there are others that are still extremely hard, and the speed from Expert to Semi-pro/Pro is huge.
    Nice website by the way, very helpful to those of us who are DIY mechanics.

  27. #27
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    Sorry, I took it personally because you were replying using my post, despite saying 'thread'.

    Non-Wobblenaugt Tangent:
    Semi-Pro's and Pros are faster than Experts, but the course is still the same a lot of the time. During my racing years, I saw the courses become an outright test of speed only, not overall ability including technical skill. During that time, it was my opinion was that cross-country racing had nearly turned into road racing instead of testing technical ability and speed.

    Maybe I had just become bitter due to the fact that my technical 'advantage' had been removed. Do you remember John Tomac racing cross country? He used to make up all of his time on the descents and technical sections and that used to work for him. However, I really doubt that John Tomac 'technique' of racing would work in the NORBA nationals today. To me, that indicates a change in the courses which has made them easier.



    Quote Originally Posted by kuna
    I said after reading this thread not your comment alone. I don't like it when people type comments that read to as though they are more in the know than others. Some of the Norba and World cups have gotten eaiser, but there are others that are still extremely hard, and the speed from Expert to Semi-pro/Pro is huge.
    Nice website by the way, very helpful to those of us who are DIY mechanics.
    I stopped driving my bike into my garage - I'm now protected with Roof Rack Ranger app for my iPhone.

  28. #28
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    Substantiate your claims

    danK (Dan Kouba??) A coward makes derogatory claims without substantiating them. If you are going attack a person's livelihood then you should be willing to support the claims or limit your claims to self-proving statements. Responsible journalism?? Libel??

    What satisfaction do you receive from ripping into people? Do you feel like a better or bigger person by degrading others? I'm not looking to debate any issues, I simply asked you to support statements you made.

    I don't understand your comment "Yeah, that was me. Go ahead. Burn my bridge in the sponsorship world." Please explain.

    Your analogy lacks sense. I asked you for the names of all the people you reference in the statements you made. I'm not asking you to disprove a belief.

    Being in the newspaper business I'm sure you are aware of this but if not you might want understand the elements of libel ..To prove a libel case a party needs to (1) Show defamatory language (language tending to adversely affect one's reputation) (2) be of or concerning the party (3) publication (communicated to someone other than the party) and (4) damage.

    I'm still at a loss for why you have a need to attack someone's business in this way. If you disagree with wobblenaught fine but once you make statements such as the ones you made I think you have an obligation to support those statements. Isn't that a tenet of news reporting?? If you don't want to support your statements then shouldn't you craft them in a manner that doesn't require support.

    I've lost respect for you.


    Quote Originally Posted by danK
    Wow, your very first post on mtbr and you go straight to this thread. Hmmm. Wonder if the WobbleNaught sponsored rider was asked or told to do so by The Village Idiot? As for your list of "prove its" (aside from #7 because that guy is totally whacked) do you think anyone is going to waste their time debating an old thread for a newbie mole?

    "Yeah, that was me. Go ahead. Burn my bridge in the sponsorship world."

    I have yet to find proof Santa Claus isn't real and doesn't climb down my chimney, but I know he's not and doesn't. But I'm sure I can find an elf who will back up the claims.

  29. #29
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    Hope Enough already....

    Lets drop it...


    On the XC racing note:

    Did anyone see or hear of some guy that won a XC race (I think it was NORBA) this year on a road bike? Everyone was so pi$$ed at him for using a road bike and tried to get him disqualified but since they allow 29" bikes now, he was perfectly legal. He was just trying to make a point of how lame XC racing has gotten.
    "Every time I see an adult on a bicycle, I no longer despair for the future of the human race." - H.G. Wells

  30. #30
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    The faster you go the rounder you get.

    Quote Originally Posted by jcgould
    Responsible journalism??
    This ain't the press. It's the internet. Are you that much of a noob?

    Quote Originally Posted by jcgould
    What satisfaction do you receive from ripping into people?
    Welcome to the internet sonny boy.

    Quote Originally Posted by jcgould
    Being in the newspaper business...
    Newspaper? What newspaper? All I see is a computer screen and a public internet forum administered by volunteer moderators open to free discussion regarding topics relating to mountain biking. Somebody wake me up and please tell me I not reading a newspaper.

    Quote Originally Posted by jcgould
    I've lost respect for you.
    Yawn. It ain't about respect. It's about riding bikes.
    Nobody cares what kind of bike you ride.

  31. #31
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    The person that made the unsubstantiated claims, danK (Dan Kouba??) may work in the newspaper industry. As such I thought he would realize the importance of understanding the impact comments can have and the significance of making potentially libelous claims. I don't understand why a person would hide behind a username and bolster themselves up by ripping other people. Why destroy someone's career? If you don't like his product don't use it. If your didn't like his product state that. Simply making injurious statements to harm is cowardly.

    At no point did I say this was a newspaper? If your point is that internet posting are exempt from libel claims, I think you are mistaken.
    Quote Originally Posted by TwistedCrank
    This ain't the press. It's the internet. Are you that much of a noob?


    Welcome to the internet sonny boy.


    Newspaper? What newspaper? All I see is a computer screen and a public internet forum administered by volunteer moderators open to free discussion regarding topics relating to mountain biking. Somebody wake me up and please tell me I not reading a newspaper.


    Yawn. It ain't about respect. It's about riding bikes.

  32. #32
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    you really have not spent much time..

    Quote Originally Posted by jcgould
    The person that made the unsubstantiated claims, danK (Dan Kouba??) may work in the newspaper industry. As such I thought he would realize the importance of understanding the impact comments can have and the significance of making potentially libelous claims. I don't understand why a person would hide behind a username and bolster themselves up by ripping other people. Why destroy someone's career? If you don't like his product don't use it. If your didn't like his product state that. Simply making injurious statements to harm is cowardly.

    At no point did I say this was a newspaper? If your point is that internet posting are exempt from libel claims, I think you are mistaken.
    on internet forums have you, there are really no rules, and flaming can ensue. In my book danK can say anything he wants on this forum. Aren't you hiding behind a username.

    Get use to it this is a public forum, if you are so concerned about libelous claims then why don't you comment on the bobs bike shop bashing thread or the rm bashing thread.

    It is called free speach!

    I would never recommend or send someone to mr. wobble because his skill level is nothing compared to others in the area.
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  33. #33
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    7th Post

    DanK writes things as he see them - he can be volatile, outrageous, funny and silly.

    DanK/Chat Boards are not going to "destroy someone's career".

    Don't waste your next post on calling somebody out, you made your point. We all get your point. Try coming up with something other than name calling.

    Take a deep breath, come back to this forum with something your passionate about and see/listen to what people have to say. We will forgive your ranting that is the beauty of the board.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by zebdi
    Lets drop it...


    On the XC racing note:

    Did anyone see or hear of some guy that won a XC race (I think it was NORBA) this year on a road bike? Everyone was so pi$$ed at him for using a road bike and tried to get him disqualified but since they allow 29" bikes now, he was perfectly legal. He was just trying to make a point of how lame XC racing has gotten.
    It was the short track race at last year's Sea Otter. I think it was kind of funny that they were pissed, proves what a stupid short track course it was. Unlike road racing, MTB racing has no regulations for the type of bike or weight limit you use. You could show up at a Norba or world cup and use a 26/29 MTB bike or a road/cyclocross bike that weighs 13 pounds and it would be legal.

  35. #35
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    Fork Dive

    Acknowledging fork dive is freaking brilliant - I will lift this concept and use it as my own cause I can't really say bikerx40 lit the light bulb to somebody. I might get a funky look and I don't want to have to explain being online.

    I recently started riding a TALAS and it has thrown my geometry off a bit when fully extended. It's does inspire confidence while pointed south, and I can always shorten up the HT angle when spinning the steeps. Anyway thanks for the eye opener.

    Quote Originally Posted by bikerx40
    Between the fork dive and the near drop-bar type positioning it was a collarbone crunching crash waiting to happen. And no, their terrible downhill positioning had nothing to do with their amount of limberness or lack of ability.

  36. #36
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    I wouldn't classify any of my posts as name calling, I simply asked danK to support his damaging statements. In my opinion danK made comments that were (1) unsubstantiated, (2) malicious and (3) unnecessary. Whether you or danK believe the comments are harmless is not determinative. Other people read these posts and that is a point that danK should be well aware. Maybe I hold danK to a higher standard because he may be in the newspaper vusiness and he should be well aware of the damage malicious statements can cause. As per cook's comments; free speech has many limits .. defamitory statements being one of those. My user name is my last name "Gould" preceded by my initiials. The fact that other businesses are being bashed is not a jstification to bash. Why cut down other people? This is something that you should "Spike Lee" ... do the right thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crash_Burn
    DanK writes things as he see them - he can be volatile, outrageous, funny and silly.

    DanK/Chat Boards are not going to "destroy someone's career".

    Don't waste your next post on calling somebody out, you made your point. We all get your point. Try coming up with something other than name calling.

    Take a deep breath, come back to this forum with something your passionate about and see/listen to what people have to say. We will forgive your ranting that is the beauty of the board.

  37. #37
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    Cowardly Comment

    "Simply put it is cowardly to make damaging statements"[QUOTE=jcgould]I wouldn't classify any of my posts as name callingQUOTE]

    DanK can't get his curls lookin this good
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  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcgould
    Ivusiness
    I think you have a spelling error there.

    Hey, let's put this insidious tripe behind us and move on to more enriching things. Here have a cookie.

    Didn't you know that when you wrestle with a pig you both get dirty and the pig has fun?
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  39. #39
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    I wasn't saying that Wobble's fitting made their forks dive. Would you agree that it is better to position yourself low and back on the bike while you are descending steep technical terrain? When the fork does dive, how can you position yourself low and back when your seat is that much higher than your bars? That was my point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crash_Burn
    Acknowledging fork dive is freaking brilliant - I will lift this concept and use it as my own cause I can't really say bikerx40 lit the light bulb to somebody. I might get a funky look and I don't want to have to explain being online.

    I recently started riding a TALAS and it has thrown my geometry off a bit when fully extended. It's does inspire confidence while pointed south, and I can always shorten up the HT angle when spinning the steeps. Anyway thanks for the eye opener.
    I stopped driving my bike into my garage - I'm now protected with Roof Rack Ranger app for my iPhone.

  40. #40
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    Simple solution to fork dive.

    I found a solution to the fork dive issue - which contributed to at least 1/2 of my biffs in the past few years.

    I put a rigid fork on my bike. It's awesome. The handling is so freaking precise and predictable! I don't know why I didn't think of it before!
    Nobody cares what kind of bike you ride.

  41. #41
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    Yeah, that'll solve it every time.


    Quote Originally Posted by TwistedCrank
    I found a solution to the fork dive issue - which contributed to at least 1/2 of my biffs in the past few years.

    I put a rigid fork on my bike. It's awesome. The handling is so freaking precise and predictable! I don't know why I didn't think of it before!
    I stopped driving my bike into my garage - I'm now protected with Roof Rack Ranger app for my iPhone.

  42. #42
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    Fork Dive

    My bad - What I was referring to is as CG is moved for fit reasons. Suspension tuning is needed once the new CG has been established. No fit tech I've ever talked with has suggested rechecking sag/suspension performance after a fit. Seems like something that may be overlooked.

  43. #43
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    Wnaught Fit needed?

    Rather than start another thread on this I thought I could insert this question between the flames. I'm being told by a physical therapist I need a bike fit done. I've been riding mountain bikes since the 70's and never had problems. Cept for when the Shimano no float pedals first came on the market and no one including me know how to adjust them. Now I've developed a bone spur on my sit bone. Does anyone here think a bike fit is going to help that? I can't believe it will. Now maybe I need a cushy embarassing big ass gel seat (I'll quit before that), but I just don't think a wnaught fit is going to do a thing for a bone spur when I've had no other problems in 30 years of riding. I also road ride too and have no problems. Cept occasional road rash.

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