Rain and riding in the Foothills- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    New question here. Rain and riding in the Foothills

    This topic first came up like a month or so ago when I was riding with someone that said the best time to ride in the Foothills was after it rained because the trails became tacky (and not woodgrain paneling in the kitchen tacky).

    The last time I rode was last Friday at Military Reserve. We got hit with a lil' bit of rain but nothing major and the trails were not one gigantic mud bog, but all our tires did accumulate alot of wet dirt.

    We're in a stretch now where we are getting rain off and on throughout the week and according to Weather.com it's gonna continue till at least the middle of next week.

    So at what point, in these current weather conditions, does riding in the Foothills do substantial damage? Obviously after a 12 hour deluge you don't want to ride, but when it only rains here and there for several days in a row...are the trails deemed "rideable"? I wanna ride as much as possible this fall and winter, but at the same time I don't want to damage the trails.

    Thanks!

    Nick

  2. #2
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    I only see it as a problem if you are leaving ruts. Ruts are what carries water in concentrated form instead of the preferred sheet flow. I rode the other day and got dirt all over my bike and tires but it didn't mess up the trails. If you are out on the trails when it is wet, don't ride around mud puddles. Too many people ride around mud puddles which creates bigger puddles and wider trails. If you can't bunny hop over the puddle, ride through it. Some trails are sandy enough that you can ride on them when others are too wet. Table rock is typically ok near the top but near castle rock the soil gets really sticky when it is wet. Corrals seems to get too many riders on it when it is wet. They leave 2" deep ruts which really suck to ride on when they harden up again. It's never too wet to ride urban...

  3. #3
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    a very sensitive topic

    Quote Originally Posted by BelaySlave
    So at what point, in these current weather conditions, does riding in the Foothills do substantial damage? I wanna ride as much as possible this fall and winter, but at the same time I don't want to damage the trails.

    Thanks!

    Nick
    Nick - Very good question. This is a supremo sensitive topic and one which should generate much disagreement. Unfortunately, the literal answer to your question is that it depends on what trail you're on and how wet the trail surface is. As you're aware, the foothills trails have a wide variety of soil composition - some have loamy, dark dirt, some are sandy, some are mostly clay, and others (most, actually) have some of all consistencies. Some trails get better with some moisture, and some most definitely turn into goo. For instance, yesterday afternoon I rode some of the reserve trails over to Sidewinder, down Hulls Ridge and Hulls Gulch, up Kestrel, up the back of the Reserve, around the new loop between the Reserve and Shane's, and then back down through the Cottonwood trail in the middle of the reserve. Some sections were muddy (in the Reserve), some were dry as a bone, but had clearly been muddy a day or two before (the Freeway), and others were somewhat damp and tacky, providing lots of traction without doing trail damage. I was, as usual, pretty pissed off at the new dried ruts and bike tracks, as well as big holes from horses on the new Central Ridge trail, indicating that a few idiots had ridden the trails on bikes and horses this last weekend when they were obviously too wet to ride.

    A good rule of thumb to observe is that if you're splattering mud on yourself and your frame, the trail is too wet/muddy to ride. If you're merely picking up a little mud in your tires (but not too much), but you're not splattering it on the bottom of your frame's downtube, you're probably OK. The problem is that you may be riding a section that is dry, but 5 yards down the trail, it may be a mud pit - a good example is the connector trai between the Freeway and the Reserve - it can go from sand to dry to mud in about 20 yards. I usually try to give all trails at least 24 hours after the END of a day of rainfall to dry before I ride them. For instance, I heard that it rained pretty hard here on Saturday (I was out of town), so on Sunday the trails should have been off-limits to riding for everyone. (Unfortunately, as I saw yesterday, clearly there were a number of idiots who rode Sunday, as their now-dry deep tire ruts were in evidence yesterday.) Some trails dry faster than others - Hulls Gulch, for instance, has very good drainage and sandier/rockier soil composition, and therefore is usually rideable earlier than some other trails. Tablerock, for instance, has heavy, clay-laden soil that turns to goo when it rains and thus takes more time to dry before it is rideable after a rain. In the winter, I pretty much hang up the mountain bikes and stick to road riding until about mid-march anyway. The one huge exception is when we get a nice, cold snap in the valley (such as the oft-occurring inversions) - the trails will freeze and traction is simply supreme, without causing damage. Unfortunately, there are a lot of idiots who insist on riding the trails year round, muddy or not, and their ignorance shows clearly by all the trail damage in the spring. The best advice I can give (other than to go get yourself a road bike for winter riding and ride the trails in the winter only when they're frozen) is to simply use common sense - if it looks too muddy to ride - it probably is!

  4. #4
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    I disagree

    Quote Originally Posted by zebdi
    I only see it as a problem if you are leaving ruts. Ruts are what carries water in concentrated form instead of the preferred sheet flow. I rode the other day and got dirt all over my bike and tires but it didn't mess up the trails.
    Zebdi, if you came back covered in mud, how can you honestly state that you caused no trail damage? Ruts aren't the only kind of damage caused by people getting out on the trails before they're dry.

  5. #5
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    yeah try to ride the sandy trails

    as opposed to the clay soil trails. You can usually ride the day after a moderate rainstorm as long as you are on the right trail. My moto is if you are leaving tracks, hoof prints, or footprints then come back another day.

    Corrals is a definate trail to avoid when wet.

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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Earthpig
    Zebdi, if you came back covered in mud, how can you honestly state that you caused no trail damage? Ruts aren't the only kind of damage caused by people getting out on the trails before they're dry.
    I didn't say I was covered in mud. I said I had dirt all over. It was large sand particles sticking to my frame and tires. I didn't create ruts. I didn't even leave tracks. If I didn't leave tracks, how did I hurt the trails? Maybe when I get home I'll collect all the little sand particles off my bike and bring them back to the trail. Maybe we shouldn't ride when its dry out either because all the dust we kick up becomes airborne particulate which is carried away by wind.

  7. #7
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    "dirt all over"

    Quote Originally Posted by zebdi
    I didn't say I was covered in mud. I said I had dirt all over.
    OK, I see - "dirt all over" you and/or your bike is clearly a HUGE difference from saying your bike was "covered with mud." I'm sure we can all see the difference in those two statements. CLEARLY, if you had "DIRT ALL OVER" you and/or your bike after a ride, there is NO WAY you could have possible done ANY trail damage!

    As for your last suggestion, I strongly suggest that you take your own advice and never ride again - that would be just one less idiot who rides trails that are too wet.

  8. #8
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    New question here.

    OK let's say we have a dry winter or at least a dry November/December, but the high temps hover in the 30s-40s during the day...does the temperature affect the soil in any way to make a trail unrideable?

  9. #9
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    Learn how to read

    Quote Originally Posted by Earthpig
    OK, I see - "dirt all over" you and/or your bike is clearly a HUGE difference from saying your bike was "covered with mud." I'm sure we can all see the difference in those two statements. CLEARLY, if you had "DIRT ALL OVER" you and/or your bike after a ride, there is NO WAY you could have possible done ANY trail damage!

    As for your last suggestion, I strongly suggest that you take your own advice and never ride again - that would be just one less idiot who rides trails that are too wet.
    Once again, you didn't read what I said. I said it was on my bike and tires. I didn't say covered. And I also said, I didn't leave tracks. Now how could I have F#@$*d up the trails if I left no tracks (ie leave no trace). You are obviously looking for an argument. The trails are best after some moisture is on them. Not a lot, just a little. Traction is great and it helps to pack them down again after being loosened all summer. I'm not out there riding off trail, widening trails, running down hikers, and skidding. I have enough sense to know when a trail is too wet.

    You're really showing your maturity with your name calling.

  10. #10
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    many many variables

    Quote Originally Posted by BelaySlave
    OK let's say we have a dry winter or at least a dry November/December, but the high temps hover in the 30s-40s during the day...does the temperature affect the soil in any way to make a trail unrideable?
    Many things affect the trail soil moisture. In a warm winter, even with very little precipitation, a north facing trail that stays in the shade can be mushy (and a no no to ride) all winter, whereas on the other side of the hill the trail may be dry and firm. A good example of this is the dam on Bob's. There are some sections of trail that stay dry no matter how warm or cold it is and how much it rains and snows - that's usually because of the soil composition and drainage (sandy vs. clay- or silt-rich)

    Like EarthPig says, there are many factors that contribute to trail ridability in the winter around here: temperature, precipitation, slope aspect, slope steepness, recent traffic, vegetation, how much sun vs. how much shade, etc., etc. Unfortunately it's one of those experience and best judgement things. The more conditions you're exposed to the better informed you are and the less impacted the trails will be.

    My rule-of-thumb is that if someone can see that I have ridden a trail after I've ridden it, then I shouldn't have ridden it. (Except, of course, dry sand in the middle of a trail, like some of the sections of the freeway).

    Take time to look at the conditions and take a moment to decide whether your riding will leave a trace or not. Respect thy trails.
    Nobody cares what kind of bike you ride.

  11. #11
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    Muddy...

    I agree with Earthpig... My rules of thumb are:
    1. If my tires are kicking up mud and it's sticking to my frame or me, I don't ride those trails.
    2. If the trail is a gumbo consistency (like the trails up in the Reserve), I don't ride those trails.
    3. Hulls in general is good to ride since it's rocky/sandy and drains very well but not the part of the Freeway (right after Hulls) that does not get any sun.
    4. Bob's is also a good "wet" trail except for the new earth dam which becomes Gumbo when wet.
    5. If I need a hard ride with some dirt, I either do Rocky Canyon or the Dump Loop (8th is too soft when wet).
    6. The best thing to do in winter is to ride super early (before 9 am or the sun hits the trail and melts it) when everything is absolutely frozen solid and there is no one around. It doesn't matter how wet the trails are since it's like riding pavement. Very fast...
    7. During an inversion, the trails are also in relatively good condition since it remains frozen hard.
    8. Last year everything was under 6" of ice so get studded tires. I was the only idiot out there.
    9. It almost doesn't matter how wet or how hard it rains, there is always someplace to ride that is enviromentally OK if you know where to look.
    10. Spinning class is also fun I heard, but nahhh... I'd rather run if all else fails than be indoors...
    G

    Dirk (or anyone else interested)... Nightride next week since the clocks are set back this weekend?

  12. #12
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    So long as the trails are dry...

    Quote Originally Posted by flipnidaho
    snipsnipsnip
    Dirk (or anyone else interested)... Nightride next week since the clocks are set back this weekend?
    Flip: my batteries are charged man. Hey, I might even have my singlespeed built up by then. I think I'd rather have solar illumination for the maiden voyage though.

    Hey, it's getting dark out there. Sad to say, it's going to be a month and a half before days start getting longer again.
    Nobody cares what kind of bike you ride.

  13. #13
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    Ss

    Did you say you have a single speed? What did ya get... I'll go on the maiden with ya... My SS is ready to go...
    I'm thinking of doing a couple of night rides (pm instead of am) next week, weather permitting... Let me know what works for ya
    G

  14. #14
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    Touch subject. Good subject. If the trail is wet, stay off. If the trail is moist, it's okay. But in this area, what is okay might be a slickfest 5 minutes later. I think people get in trouble when they try to ride out the slick stuff and end up sliding and skidding around for 30 more minutes.
    I'm not going to preach. We're all pretty dang smart and know the difference between mud and dirt, and what is destructive.

    When in doubt, turn around, or better yet, ride the boring ol' road for a day.

  15. #15
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    How in the hell do you know????

    Quote Originally Posted by zebdi
    I said it was on my bike and tires. I didn't say covered. And I also said, I didn't leave tracks. Now how could I have F#@$*d up the trails if I left no tracks (ie leave no trace).
    I want to know how you know for sure that (1) you weren't "leaving tracks" and (2) that you KNOW you caused no trail damage. Were you riding looking backwards? Did you go back over your entire mud-filled route and repair all the damage you did? I'm pretty f$*king sure that if your bike had "dirt all over" as you admit it did, you clearly left some tracks somewhere AND thus caused some damage, and I'm g*ddamn sure that most people here would agree with that conclusion.

    Quote Originally Posted by zebdi
    I have enough sense to know when a trail is too wet.
    Obviously not.

    Quote Originally Posted by zebdi
    You're really showing your maturity with your name calling.
    Hey dummy (whoops, the name calling thing again) you started with the petty sarcasm and I'm not one to back down from a good flame. So, idiot (and again), don't dish it out if you can't take it. And stay off the trails when the mud is sticking to your frame. Moron.

  16. #16
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    Nyet

    Quote Originally Posted by BelaySlave
    OK let's say we have a dry winter or at least a dry November/December, but the high temps hover in the 30s-40s during the day...does the temperature affect the soil in any way to make a trail unrideable?
    Temp alone isn't going to do anything to the condition of the trails...unless they're already wet. Then, a good hard freeze will make the unrideable rideable.

  17. #17
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    Alright, this isn't the place to have your little hissy fits. I'm going to say my peace and leave it at that.

    My wife was riding with me so she could see if I was leaving tracks or not. You can pick up dirt from the trail without scarring the surface. And by the way, you are the one that said in your first post that it is alright if your tires pick up "mud" but not if they fling the mud. So as long as you ride slow you're ok then, right? I don't agree with your logic (or lack there of). If you can ride and have "mud" sticking to your tires without causing damage, I have something to learn. Show me the way, oh great one. You are obviously the trail guru. Or maybe just a big baby looking for a fight.

    I'm out of here. I don't need to waste my time arguing with people like you.

  18. #18
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    and yet another chiming in....

    Quote Originally Posted by BelaySlave
    This topic first came up like a month or so ago when I was riding with someone that said the best time to ride in the Foothills was after it rained because the trails became tacky (and not woodgrain paneling in the kitchen tacky).

    The last time I rode was last Friday at Military Reserve. We got hit with a lil' bit of rain but nothing major and the trails were not one gigantic mud bog, but all our tires did accumulate alot of wet dirt.

    We're in a stretch now where we are getting rain off and on throughout the week and according to Weather.com it's gonna continue till at least the middle of next week.

    So at what point, in these current weather conditions, does riding in the Foothills do substantial damage? Obviously after a 12 hour deluge you don't want to ride, but when it only rains here and there for several days in a row...are the trails deemed "rideable"? I wanna ride as much as possible this fall and winter, but at the same time I don't want to damage the trails.

    Thanks!

    Nick

    my philosophy has always been to err on the side of trail protection and give it at least 2 days after a good rain, and then be willing to go home if I'm leaving ruts or tracks. Barking Spider area and south of there is often rideable in the winter, when our trails around Boise are soupy. A tacky trail the day after a light rain is a joy, especially after all the dust of summer. But it can be too much of a good thing if it gets too wet.

    Last couple days I've been hitting it hard indoors with new, cool dvds on the northshore riders. Pray for snow, friends, or a good freeze. This in-between stuff is hard to schedule around.

    CB
    May your trails be narrow, crooked, lonesome and dangerous, leading to the most outrageous adventures. Paladin

  19. #19
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    There is a similar thread on this topic in the "Save The Trails" forum:

    http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.ph...939#post463939

    Last night, due to a tight schedule, I went to a Spinning class after work and even though I got a good workout...I was hating every single minute of it. I sooooo much wanted to be outside instead. Oh well...better than nothing.

    I do understand that we need the rain and I'm hoping that snow is being dumped up in the mountains, but damn I want to be riding! Guess the Stumpy wanna be road bike is gonna be busted out tomorrow night.

  20. #20
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    Well, we do what we can...

    Quote Originally Posted by BelaySlave
    There is a similar thread on this topic in the "Save The Trails" forum:

    http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.ph...939#post463939

    Last night, due to a tight schedule, I went to a Spinning class after work and even though I got a good workout...I was hating every single minute of it. I sooooo much wanted to be outside instead. Oh well...better than nothing.

    I do understand that we need the rain and I'm hoping that snow is being dumped up in the mountains, but damn I want to be riding! Guess the Stumpy wanna be road bike is gonna be busted out tomorrow night.
    a couple drizzly days ago, I took out my red mtnbike, added the lights, pumped the tires up to around 50lbs+ and rode out south past the prison and made a big loop back to my house. Surprised how much "off-road" I could get on Pleasant Valley and some of the other roads involved. Fun to explore that south area I hadn't ever been to before, too.

    And I positively hate spinning classes, too.

    cb
    May your trails be narrow, crooked, lonesome and dangerous, leading to the most outrageous adventures. Paladin

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by CBro
    And I positively hate spinning classes, too.

    cb

    I positively hate spinning instructors. Not all of them (Davey Moore, eeek) but most of them can't ride a real bike to save their life. I took one and after the 45th "60 seconds of up and down off that seat, come on team, let's do it," I was done with the spinning crap.

  22. #22
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    I was amazed

    Quote Originally Posted by danK
    I positively hate spinning instructors. Not all of them (Davey Moore, eeek) but most of them can't ride a real bike to save their life. I took one and after the 45th "60 seconds of up and down off that seat, come on team, let's do it," I was done with the spinning crap.

    by how many of the spinning geeks, especially the really serious ones, didn't even ride a bike in real life! I found it hard to believe, and can't hardly think my experience is typical of folks who spin a lot. I just found that one good ride on a mtnbike was at least twice as hard as any hour on a spinning "bike." My instructor was a gal from Goldy's team, and was pretty fun to "ride" with. Still too much of a roadie geek.

    cb
    May your trails be narrow, crooked, lonesome and dangerous, leading to the most outrageous adventures. Paladin

  23. #23
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    You are a minority of one, Zeb

    From what I'm eading of all the other posts, you're a minority of one on this post if you are contending that (1) ruts are the only damage that can be caused by riding trails that are too wet; and (2) that when your frame has "dirt all over" after a ride signals to you that the trails were dry enough to ride. I'll agree that some trails are better with some moisture, but if you're picking up enough mud to splatter your downtube and/or chainstays, it's undoubtedly too muddy and thus...you're causing damage.

  24. #24
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    Spinning is a fetish

    Quote Originally Posted by CBro
    by how many of the spinning geeks, especially the really serious ones, didn't even ride a bike in real life!

    cb
    If you were to ask me I'd probably say something crude like spinning class is just a [email protected] club. It's not the real thing and you do it in groups in dark rooms to loud music.

    OK, so no one was asking...
    Nobody cares what kind of bike you ride.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Earthpig
    OK, I see - "dirt all over" you and/or your bike is clearly a HUGE difference from saying your bike was "covered with mud." I'm sure we can all see the difference in those two statements. CLEARLY, if you had "DIRT ALL OVER" you and/or your bike after a ride, there is NO WAY you could have possible done ANY trail damage!

    As for your last suggestion, I strongly suggest that you take your own advice and never ride again - that would be just one less idiot who rides trails that are too wet.
    OK, OK.....I think we are all jonesing a little bit to ski, either that or people are getting all depressed now that the biking season is mostly over

    Earthpig. Let me ask you a question, do you go out and DRIVE on dirt roads when they are wet and muddy, do you walk on trails when they are wet? I think that hikers and joggers do more damage to trails when it is wet and muddy than do mtn bikes. I see hikers out routinely on trails right after a rain (i.e. last Saturday) muddying and rutting up the trails. Don't start a flame war we are all in this for the fun.....

  26. #26
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    a return question

    Quote Originally Posted by ryman
    Earthpig. Let me ask you a question, do you go out and DRIVE on dirt roads when they are wet and muddy, do you walk on trails when they are wet? I think that hikers and joggers do more damage to trails when it is wet and muddy than do mtn bikes. I see hikers out routinely on trails right after a rain (i.e. last Saturday) muddying and rutting up the trails. Don't start a flame war we are all in this for the fun.....
    Let me ask you a return question - what in the hell are you talking about? Of course I drive on muddy roads when they're wet. Driving on muddy roads that are designed to carry traffic in all conditions and maintained regularly is a completely different thing than riding a mountain bike on muddy foothills singletrack trails. Apples and oranges, Ryman. In fact, I have no compunction whatsoever about riding a bike, driving a car, riding a donkey, whatever - you name it - on a muddy ROAD. Roads are designed and built for that. As for Boise foothills trails, however, I don't do anything on singletrack trails when they're muddy - hike, bike, f*ck, whatever - I stay the hell off of them and I wish more people around here would do the same. There are parts of the country where the soil conditions allow for year-round and all-conditions riding - if you didn't ride in the rain in the pacific northwest, you'd never ride. However, the soil composition of 90-95% of the Boise foothills trails DO NOT lend themselves to riding when they're wet. Look, if you absolutely HAVE to mountain bike when it's raining, go down to the Owyhees where the trails do not turn to goo.

    As for your last little comment, I don't start flame wars, but I sure as hell don't back down from them if somebody else does.

  27. #27
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    yes i'm an idiot

  28. #28
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    edited for being politically incorrect.........

  29. #29
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    I do miss trails that are rideable all year round

    However,
    even in SoCal, for 2 or 3 days after a rain the rangers say trails are closed (at least in state parks) like El Morro.

    There's so much more clay composition here I believe (correct?).

    When I first read about Boise rating so high in BIKE mag a few years back, they interviewed former "Trek Honch" who resides here. His comments were that for the most part they're unrideable after a rain "turn to full gumbo".

    I sure found that out in early spring trying to ride after a one or two day break in the rain, going up Corrals I was going to do Hard Guy. It began raining on me and I basically had to hike a bike back, with like 30lbs of mud on my tires, it was a mess!

    Same situation trying to ride to Castle Rock, "full gumbo".

    I am not getting involved in any arguments and am neutral. But I am looking forward to riding the Owhyees more this winter, with Smilycook and Nels, and whoever else enjoys riding there. Also, if funds permit, to learn how to snowboard
    Sound of Tires on Dirt: Sole Music
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  30. #30
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    Cool-blue Rhythm Go ahead find the goods and have some fun!

    You guys are cracking me up this week. First there was someone getting cranky about riding trails that were closed on one end and not the other. There was even some discussion that some trails were closed to protect habitat and animals. Now there is a giant debate about the rules of when to ride on wet trails!

    I am sitting here trying to figure out where I am on these debates and seem to be very conflicted as others on this board are and sometimes refuse to admit. At times I seem to be the only voice in support of not riding in wilderness to protect the resource and maintain a pleasurable experience for hikers and non-bikers and those that do bike but know how to put a pack on and go at a slower pace.

    Now comes the muddy trails debate. It seems that creating ruts in the trails causes additional sediment run off. But most of all it causes us mountain bikers grief in dealing with the ruts and bumps. Is it the ruts and bumps or sediment that is really the root of this debate? If it is the sediment, then we should be raising hell with all those numb nuts that don’t know how to user there brakes and end up hopping the back tire through corners and causing increased erosion. And how about those butt-heads that wants to ride faster than their abilities and can’t stay on a trail. I remember when a lot of the trails in the foothills were single tracks and not bike roads.

    So what is so funny about this you ask? While I can remember back to my first candy apple red sting ray bike with the leopard skin banana seat and how much I loved riding down a trail behind a cabin in the Southhills near Twin Falls when it was almost ankle deep in mud. I would push my bike to the top of the hill, hurl down the trail and just hope to make it around the turn at the bottom without sliding out sideways. It still puts a smile on my face thinking about it! Later in life I use to work on a farm near Hansen, Idaho. There was a bunch of us that would ride around naked on the motorcycles while changing water. If it was really wet and nasty outside, we would sneak off and ride the “Honda trials” and see how big a rooster tail we could kick up.

    So what conclusions have I drawn from reading the forum this week and relating it to life experiences. It is fun as hell to ride muddy trails. It also leaves a nasty rut in clay type soils. I also learned that mountain bikers are about the most self-absorbed group I know. There just like Edward Abby in his approach of “I should be able to use it but you should stay home.”

    Since I am a mountain biker and admittedly as opinionated as the rest of you. Here is my list.

    1) If you are 12-years-old and riding in the mud is going to provide a life long memory and perma-grin, by all means do it! Guilt will get the best of you later in life and you will stop.
    2) Go out and explore and find the trails that are rideable shortly after a rain. If they look to wet, look elsewhere. If you find one that is rideable, find a puddle near your house or work and figure out what the puddle will look like when the trail is dry enough to ride.
    3) If you ride in the foothills and get caught up in a rut, keep in mind that rut probably made someone happy. Besides those nice horse hoof prints on hard guy are good providing numb nuts and really let you know you went for a ride.
    4) If you have to make a list that you think others should follow on when and when not to ride, you should stay home you are too damn cranky and dont' desire a ride.

    Hope to see you all out riding this winter with perma-grins!

  31. #31
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    Last edited by danK; 10-30-2004 at 03:43 PM. Reason: more info

  32. #32
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    All good points

    Quote Originally Posted by Irishbuddha
    Since I am a mountain biker and admittedly as opinionated as the rest of you. Here is my list.

    1) If you are 12-years-old and riding in the mud is going to provide a life long memory and perma-grin, by all means do it! Guilt will get the best of you later in life and you will stop.
    2) Go out and explore and find the trails that are rideable shortly after a rain. If they look to wet, look elsewhere. If you find one that is rideable, find a puddle near your house or work and figure out what the puddle will look like when the trail is dry enough to ride.
    3) If you ride in the foothills and get caught up in a rut, keep in mind that rut probably made someone happy. Besides those nice horse hoof prints on hard guy are good providing numb nuts and really let you know you went for a ride.
    4) If you have to make a list that you think others should follow on when and when not to ride, you should stay home you are too damn cranky and dont' desire a ride.

    Hope to see you all out riding this winter with perma-grins!
    Budda - As usual, you put an interesting spin on the debate. As you can probably tell, this is one of those issues that really gets my hackles up, and I'm not sure why. I'm as guilty as the rest for riding some trails at times I shouldn't have, but for whatever reason, when I see deep ruts that are caused by hikers, bikers, horse-riders, whatever, it makes me see red. (Could be that anger-management thing.) I wasn't intending to start a flame war on here, but as those who know me well, I have this nasty habit of escalating debates to a level that becomes not fun when I feel passionate about an issue, such as biking on muddy foothills trails.

    So, in sum, to Zeb, Ryman, and anyone else here with whom I engaged in "vigorous" debate on this topic (or others) or otherwise upset, I'd like to express my sincerest apologies. The name calling was, well, not called for. My bad. I agree - it's all about fun and again, sorry for letting my nasty temper get the better of me (again).

  33. #33
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    [QUOTE=Earthpig

    So, in sum, to Zeb, Ryman, and anyone else here with whom I engaged in "vigorous" debate on this topic (or others) or otherwise upset, I'd like to express my sincerest apologies. The name calling was, well, not called for. My bad. I agree - it's all about fun and again, sorry for letting my nasty temper get the better of me (again).[/QUOTE]

    No problem EP, like I said and like IB said we're all in this for the fun. I seem to get into these debates too on the other forum folks are VERY passionate and opinionated about telemarktips.com, but they are just debates and opinions of others sometimes are and other times aren't agreed with especially when it comes to land access issues and keeping that favorite pow stash a secret like we tend to keep our favorite mtn bike trails secret....sorry I'm rambling now...anyways have a good day

  34. #34
    Hi!!!
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    Do you guys think the Military Reserve trails will be in good condition tomorrow? I've been laid up in bed over the weekend trying to fight a cold so I have no clue if we got rained on.

    Thanks

    Nick

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