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  1. #1
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    Here we go again!

    Doesn't it seem like this is discusses almost on a monthly basis?

    I rode my Thanksgiving day Corral's to Hull's loop and noticed some work had been done on Hull's Gulch. Somebody has built dirt ramp-ups over many of the larger, exposed rocks on the way down.
    Is there some reason that I just don't know about for this "maintenance"?
    It seems to me that somebody is either trying to "Dumb Down" the trail or somebody is building launching pads to get a bit more air. If it is for the "free riding" reason, then I think that we have to make better decisions. It seems to me that it is not a very good idea to intentionally try to go faster down Hull's (the busiest trail in the foothills) when it is so narrow. To add to this, now people may be trying to catch more air while on their way down. The trail is way too busy, too narrow, and has way too many blind curves to be doing things like this. We are just asking to get worse reputations in the hills.
    Well hell, what do I know? I only went to college for 8 years

    Any thoughts/reasons?
    BoiseBoy

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoiseBoy
    Any thoughts/reasons?
    You would be correct.

    Unless you want to create user conflicts, ride Hull's at a moderate pace. If you want to ride like a madman find a less busy place to do it.
    Each bicycle owned exponentially increases the probability that none is working correctly.

  3. #3
    just a man
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoiseBoy
    I only went to college for 8 years
    This reminds me of two movies

    1)Animal House - Bluto: "Seven years of college down the drain!"


    2)Tommy Boy - Tommy: "A lot of people go to college for seven years." Richard: "Yeah, they're called doctors."

  4. #4
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    I noticed that the last time I did a Hulls ride. And while I have no objections to going fast on it, I think that you should be in control of your bike at all times. Last time I checked, you can neither brake nor turn in mid-air, and the ability to stop is a good thing with so many hikers on it.
    Quote Originally Posted by trevor
    Either ive got a lot of mud on my tire, or i'm hauling Kenne's ego

  5. #5
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  6. #6
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    No one has any business doing any unapproved building on Hull's. I have seen said work and though it is ridiculously minor, it still should not have been done. It just opens the doors to other people doing what they want, when they want, with no regard for safety. Anybody that wants to work on trails can do so with Vis, Surly, and Dmeek, anytime they want to.

  7. #7
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    thanks for the props Speedy!!!!!


    I hope to see you out on the trail this spring. There will be plenty of work to do.
    ...building wherever they'll let me...

  8. #8
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    Oh, if I have to...

    I am sticking hard with the idea that we should have a weekly foothills trail evening. It is nearly impossible for me to do weekend things.

  9. #9
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    I did try that with Rock Island maintenance. It didn't work as well as I hoped the first couple weeks, but that did change. Surly, Impdude, Ryman, and Garnetspur did come to my rescue, and R2R was very impressed with the amount of work done.

    I wish I knew of a way to get voluteer effort to be more consistent and available. For those that do help (aka the regulars...and you know who you are), I really can't say how much I appreciate it. I really wish everyone that uses the trails you guys (and gals) have worked on would give you a pat on the back.

    This spring (about 3-3.5 months away) I will regularly post maintenance days on the sticky that Formica has graciously made so. I'll try to accommodate everyone's schedule, but there is only so much I can do about that. (Oh...and for the stick, it is for posts pertaining to the when, where of maintenance days...please keep it that way...or I'll lose the sticky)

    Thanks.
    ...building wherever they'll let me...

  10. #10
    Hi!!!
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    What about come Feb. or March, do a survey of folks that are interested in helping out and ask people to submit their weekly availability?

  11. #11
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    Nick,

    I spend my days scheduling projects and handling legislative timelines. By the time I get home, I rather spend my time doing labor than administrative work.

    Maybe it is just me, I figure if you really love to ride you'll come out and share some sweat equity. I always thought that it would be cool to see Parker come out with his kids once so he can show them that riding is just more than riding. Or see CBro trimming away with some of his semi-newbies. I always thought trail work days were a good way of building a sense of community and ownership. Some of my best memories of this past summer were trading jokes with Ivan and Surly while building at Bogus.

    And sorry Nick, it is raining. It snowed and rained on me on the ride into work this AM.
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  12. #12
    just a man
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    I definitely am going to bring the kiddos out for some trail maintenance to educate them on how trails exist and withstand the test of time. Unfortunately the last few times I wanted to get up there it just didn't work out. My younger son did come up to Bogus one afternoon but it ended up being a riding session, no work was done. Don't count the Parkers out big guy, we'll be there!

  13. #13
    Hoops - Big and Small
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    Pumpin the Hulls Track

    Quote Originally Posted by Visicypher
    it would be cool to see Parker come out with his kids once so he can show them that riding is just more than riding. Or see CBro trimming away with some of his semi-newbies.
    I got spend some trail love time with the Righteous boys - O.K. maybe not-so-rightous boys. I even got to help out the Parker Boys/Girl (very cute btw) helpin on the Pump Track. Fun was had by all.

    I think trail maint can develop bonds and connect the rider to the dirt, but there's no substitute for railin with the buds stretching the bounds of the comfort zone.

    Now if we could get the Horse people to come clean up their divets that would be a miracle!

  14. #14
    Hi!!!
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    The only volunteer stuff I've done this year (other than TdF and HPSF) was the trail maintenance that Cook set up earlier this spring on Hulls. I know from here it was me, Bret, CBro, Holy Roller, a couple of those hucking kids, a dude from Idaho Outdoors, and of course Chris. I was able to do it since it was a weeknight instead of a weekend (I'm rarely in Boise during the weekends unless I have to work at REI).

    So my vote is non-Tuesday evenings.

    On a somewhat related note.......how many members does SWIMBA have? Several hundred? And out of those members, how many are doing trailwork? How does that number compare to other organizations here in Idaho as well as throughout the US?

  15. #15
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    Reeling in this thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BoiseBoy
    Doesn't it seem like this is discusses almost on a monthly basis?

    I rode my Thanksgiving day Corral's to Hull's loop and noticed some work had been done on Hull's Gulch.

    Somebody has built dirt ramp-ups over many of the larger, exposed rocks on the way down.

    We are just asking to get worse reputations in the hills.

    Any thoughts/reasons?
    Talking about relevant trail issues is probably what this forum is about - Hulls just seems to be the epicenter for us Boise riders.

    Glad to hear you found the time to break out the wheels on T-Day, seems like the holidays consume so much time it's hard to take care of ourselves sometimes.

    As far "asking to get a worse reputation", every time you roll out of the garage you have a chance to improve the reputation of all of us. Just say HI, ask the other trail users if they need something ie directions, flat fix, chain tool, water, whatever just acknowledge that your sharing the trail and your glad to see other people on the trails.

    Over the years have seen many "adjustments" to the trail, some good some bad, the one thing that is constant is the trail will change.

  16. #16
    TRAIL KUBUKI CORNDOGGER
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    Building illicit stunts in Hulls is pretty stupid. Almost as stupid as riding them and wondering what's wrong with riding them.
    Nobody cares what kind of bike you ride.

  17. #17
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    Cool. It will be nice to see you.

    And having the kids ride on a work day...that ain't such a bad thing.

    We still have to ride together one day.
    ...building wherever they'll let me...

  18. #18
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    I thought the jumps were well placed and pretty fun. Nothing was located on a blind section, and most of them will actually slow people down since most of us aren't going to hit them at full throttle...whereas most of us are probably clipping along pretty fast through those sections when not hitting these new features. There is one exception to that however where you can clear that little rock outcrop, but that area has wide open visibility.

    I understand the issues with the new features though, especially on Hulls...but I think our midnight trail building bandit has done a pretty tasteful job and commend his or her work....as temporary as it may be.

  19. #19
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    Having done many of the trails in foothills, I find a majority of them to be lacking in excitement. The local trail crews and the agencies with jurisdiction over their design have managed to sweep them as clean as they can. Fortunatlely there are a few trails with georaphy that challenges this approach. Hulls Gulch and Table Rock are two that come to mind. What good do rocks, humps and bumps do if you can't make the best of them. Let the riders have a choice whether to sail a few feet off a rock or take the safer line around it. I would bet there a more injuries to people in a year's time who ride or hike the rock outcrop halfway up Hulls than riders popping off these jumps. Not a one of the new features on Hulls will pose a threat to anyone, except to those who decide to use them. They have all slowed me down in sections I had previousl ripped through. I certainly don't want to end up in someone's lap or top of their dog after catching a little air.

    I noticed these new features use indigenous materials.....much different from the toilets, sign posts, fences, buildings and parking lots we see on other parts of the trail....nature is good....man is better....small jumps are evil.

  20. #20
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    The point is that someone has taken it upon himself ( and I am sure it is a him, as it seems that women have a built in alarm against doing something so stupid) to "improve" the most popular trail in the Boise foothills on his on accord, without any regard to the politics regarding such an action. Would you **** with Ian's work on Bogus without asking Ian? Then, unless you have permission, then leave Hull's alone! Don't ask for censure for the mb community. Be smart.
    A simple search on this forum will point out the idiot that did this.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpeedyGonzalas
    ( and I am sure it is a him, as it seems that women have a built in alarm against doing something so stupid)

    I wouldn't be so sure about that there Speedy. Maybe when it comes to renegade singletrack mods, but that's about it.....

  22. #22
    aaarrrggghh!
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    You again!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by BoiseBoy
    I only went to college for 8 years
    Your amazing education, self promotion aside, doesn't mean anything here on this board. However, when speaking about trails in the foothills I have to say that I am in total agreement with you. I'm not sure if I think I like your line of reasoning. I don't understand why if its for jumping its bad but maybe your saying its ok to make the trail smoother for beginners? Maybe I misread your post, but either way I completely agree with your overall stance.

    Like Speedy said, it doesn't matter if you like it or not, you can't go working on trails without the proper authorization, unless your making the lines so hard that only a small handfull of people can actually ride them, , hahahaha I kill me. Mother Nature is wearing Hulls down to a good rocky base without our help, and thus making the trail a little more fun from a technical standpoint. I actually like all the booters without the lips. So I still ride fast and hit all the jumps on Hulls, I just do when I can see far enough down the trail as to not create a user conflict. Back in the day I wailed into some kid riding with his dad while I was going too fast on a blind corner. After apologizing up and down over and over I bought him a new wheel and payed to have his bike looked over by his favorite shop wrench. I felt horrible and was really thankful no one got hurt. I quickly learned about riding too fast where its not appropriate.

    That's my 2 cents.

  23. #23
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    Last edited by mtnbkrdr98; 11-30-2006 at 08:37 PM.
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  24. #24
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    Hull's

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan the Terrible
    Your amazing education, self promotion aside, doesn't mean anything here on this board. However, when speaking about trails in the foothills I have to say that I am in total agreement with you. I'm not sure if I think I like your line of reasoning. I don't understand why if its for jumping its bad but maybe your saying its ok to make the trail smoother for beginners? Maybe I misread your post, but either way I completely agree with your overall stance.

    Like Speedy said, it doesn't matter if you like it or not, you can't go working on trails without the proper authorization, unless your making the lines so hard that only a small handfull of people can actually ride them, , hahahaha I kill me. Mother Nature is wearing Hulls down to a good rocky base without our help, and thus making the trail a little more fun from a technical standpoint. I actually like all the booters without the lips. So I still ride fast and hit all the jumps on Hulls, I just do when I can see far enough down the trail as to not create a user conflict. Back in the day I wailed into some kid riding with his dad while I was going too fast on a blind corner. After apologizing up and down over and over I bought him a new wheel and payed to have his bike looked over by his favorite shop wrench. I felt horrible and was really thankful no one got hurt. I quickly learned about riding too fast where its not appropriate.

    That's my 2 cents.
    My point on education was about sarcasm, nothing less, nothing more.
    I think that my whole point of this string was the fact that people are still doing unauthorized work on our trails.
    Hull's is still one of my farvorite trails, both up and down. I love the exposed rocks and the slightly technical nature of the trail. I do wish that it was even more technical. If it were possible to do scheduled maintenance to make it more "exposed and technical" I would be all for it.
    I just didnt' understand the point of the work that was done on the trail recently. Was somebody trying to smoothe out (dumbing down) the trail by making the ramp-ups or were they actually trying to make more of a launching pad?
    I hope that some kids were just trying to make jumps out of some of the rock sections and didn't realize what they were doing.
    I love the trail and have stopped bombing down it unless it is about 7:00 AM or I just haven't seen another sole on the trails that day. There are just too many people and dogs more often then not. I am one that likes to purposely hit every rock on the trail to play around rather than just doing the old cannonball right down it.

    I was hoping that somebody had a good explanation of why the trail was changed.

    Peace out homies!
    BoiseBoy

  25. #25
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    BB,

    obviously, somebody made some launching ramps and created some little booters. I didn't hit them last night cuz I was smarting from a fall, and wasn't sure if the jumps were slippery or icy (they had snow on them), but they are really fun, and they aren't in blind areas. So, they make the trail more fun to ride. No one was trying to dumb down Hulls Gulch for mtn biking. It looks like the one on the right hand side on lower hulls, close to redsands, somebody already destroyed it though.
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  26. #26
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    If you want more technical, I would recommend riding Bob's, Rock Island, or the trail right by the Table Rock quarry.
    ...building wherever they'll let me...

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  28. #28
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    The time to be happy is now!

    While I appreciate BoiseBoy’s frustration with unsolicited trail additions, this sort of thread does nothing but inflame and divide the biking community. We know the Federal Land Managers and Ridges to Rivers staff visit this forum. If we want more trails including some with more technical features, we need to show the land managers, owners and those that oversee trail development that we are a united front when it comes to self regulation, current trail maintenance and a willingness to pitch in to build new trails. This sort of thread and the renegade trail building does nothing but destroy our future.

    So let’s stop the *****ing and polarization and put on the happy shoes and fix the problems. There is probably less than 20 minutes of work to be done to remove the dirt ramps in hulls gulch. I propose to go up Hulls Friday evening and remove the “new features.” There are also several puddles forming on Crestline and Hulls. We need to get permission from the powers to be and see if we can do some trail maintenance to deal with water drainage issues. I know Viscypher, Dan Meeker and others have been busy working with multiple agencies for access, new trails, etc. Viscypher can you find out how and who to work with to do a little Hulls area maintenance. If the R2 crew could chime in it might be helpful. So let’s move this thread over to the “Schedule Maintenance” thread and get something done around here.

    In the future, instead of *****ing about illegal trail building, stop and take a few minutes and take it out. If you are one of the ones putting in new features without permission, don’t lose the passion for trail building, just make sure you are doing it where it has been blessed.

    Now it is time to be happy and let this thread die!

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  31. #31
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    ... and if we just ...

    Your ideas are possible, grasshopper, but I would advise you to first seek the insight of the R2R Buddha...There is no wisdom in building something that will only get torn down if not authorized...seek enlightenment before swinging your tool...

  32. #32
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    That is a "no". R2R has requested the trail be restored to its prior condition.

    Mike, can we go tonite? The hungarion she-devil can take care of that in 2 minutes.

    Please let this thread die.
    ...building wherever they'll let me...

  33. #33
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    Just leave the little kickers in place, it's not that big of deal. In fact, it would be basically a non-issue if you didn't have people like us sitting around talking about it on these forums. Maybe we should focus on some bigger picture issues than a couple little wheelie-jumps on Hulls. Talk about micro-management.

    Just because you guys are afraid to hit jumps, don't take them out and make the rest of us suffer
    Last edited by Pothole; 11-30-2006 at 01:19 PM.

  34. #34
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    Been there...

    Quote Originally Posted by Visicypher
    If you want more technical, I would recommend riding Bob's, Rock Island, or the trail right by the Table Rock quarry.
    Been there, do all of them. Thanks for the suggestion though!
    BoiseBoy

  35. #35
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    ummmmmmm

    original condition means original condition, no booters, kickers . and lets let this thread die already, hey Al need help tonight? Georgezilla and I are poss avail.
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  36. #36
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    Give me a ring. We can chat about it.
    ...building wherever they'll let me...

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    Last edited by mtnbkrdr98; 11-30-2006 at 08:41 PM.
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  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Irishbuddha
    So let’s stop the *****ing and polarization and put on the happy shoes and fix the problems. There is probably less than 20 minutes of work to be done to remove the dirt ramps in hulls gulch. I propose to go up Hulls Friday evening and remove the “new features.”
    I guess the point is some of us don't think these incredibly insignificant mounds of dirt are problems.

  39. #39
    gringo-fied facsimiles
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    actually I think the point is that it was not OKed through the proper channels so it will be torn down. I have hit them myself and think they are super fun, BUT that is not the issue, they will be torn out cuz they were put there without permission.
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  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by surly_an_instigator
    actually I think the point is that it was not OKed through the proper channels so it will be torn down. I have hit them myself and think they are super fun, BUT that is not the issue, they will be torn out cuz they were put there without permission.

    I know that's the point and understand the issues and generally agree, especially on a trail like Hulls. BUT, why does this group feel compelled to police and enforce? Is it really an issue of trying to keep in good favor with all the users and put a good image out there of mountain bikers? Or is the issue really that someone did something that some of you didn't know about and that got someone's panties in a wad because they weren't consulted? I tend to think that is more of a factor than anything else on this one particular issue, which somewhat wads my panties up a bit to be honest. That's cool though...it's obvious the trails we have are in good hands with you guys here.

  41. #41
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    it makes me mad actually, but you got guys like Surly who are way better riders than me and still acquiese to the logical reasons for not doing it, adn in fact are going to help remove them, so what can I do but agree of course?
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  42. #42
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    Can't we just let this die?

    Everyone agrees it is a small issue. However (and it is a BIG however), a lot more is involved than just the booters themselves. For example, if you and your neighbor got off on the wrong foot, would you go out and do brodies in his front yard. I hope not, if you wanted to be a good neighbor. SOOOOO....what a handful of us (the 40+ lb bike crowd) have been doing is being that good neighbor so we can have a good 'hood....where we can build more trails...more fun trail for us AND YOU...trails that are to more of everyones' liking. I understand all the sentiments. I have a big bike, and want more technical trails. We, the big bike crowd, can't do this until we show that we as COMMUNITY will be a good neighbor.

    Ask yourself, do you want to keep the "insignificant mound" or have 40 miles of sweet singletrack? 'Cause at this point, it would be hard to have both. My whiskey drinking friend said it best..."Give to get"
    ...building wherever they'll let me...

  43. #43
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    Last edited by mtnbkrdr98; 11-30-2006 at 08:38 PM.
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  44. #44
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    Sorry, I promise I'll let it die after this.


    Ok Vis, I'm starting to see the bigger point here possibly. The jumps, however small, are seen by all users of Hulls on a daily basis and are instantly connected with the 'big bike' crowd. The majority of the users are not big bike (or even medium bike) riders, and are disgusted of the thought of even more danger flying down the trail at them and their dogs/kids/etc (whether or not there is truly more danger), complain to the powers that be, thus potentially reducing future opportunities for more technical trails?

  45. #45
    Don't worry, be happy!
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbkrdr98
    There not giving us enough. I've been here 4 years and we still don't have crap. I could have ridden the dual freeride comp downtown, I saw the course and have all confidence I could ride it. guess I'll get more involved in Ian's trails up there come spring, when I'll have a big bike myself (yet again) and run flat pedals. going to spend more time on that and practicing at Willow, and just use the road bike for fitness.

    anyhoo, SWIMBA, I hope they change under Ian's direction. Things are suggested and they take forever to do anything and meanwhile, like Brad said, there's nothing here to improve upon. I can't go do the road gap at ussery and go big, but what is there small to medium to start on. I don't want to go more towards XC, I want to go more towards freeride
    Anything going through proper channels always takes longer. I'm working on a free ride park here in my town. But that's the difference between legal and illegal trails - legal lasts longer and is supposed to be there, illegal is about short term gratification. It's lot more productive to get involved, put some energy into and be patient - help to create something good and for the long term.

    ~f.

  46. #46
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    fully agree with you, our mod. However, I am just not convinced that the "powers that be" will even let anything happen here. Idaho is so damn cool in a lot of respects, but some people just come across so, well, stubborn. Good luck on that freeride park. I'd like you to share your successes with us if you can. A permanent freeride park right here in town and better yet in town and enclosed for winter riding aka Ohio, would be just sick.

    They are working on a velodrome that's supposed to have a lot of stuff and which I've contributed money, so we'll see.

    thanks!
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  47. #47
    Don't worry, be happy!
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    There's plenty of success stories for downhilling and freeriding on the IMBA site.You can download the latest issue of Trail News, the annual issue devoted to Freeride Success stories, somewhere on the site. Get educated, go to meetings. Be persistent. Be really patient. Always ask when the follow up meeting is. It's way more stressful and much less fun that going for a ride. Glad to hear you've donated to your velodrome project. Our club has a motto when people start telling us what they think we should be doing: "put up or shut up".

    anyway, here's the bike park proposal, some of the info is out of date as we've built the first legal ladders this summer.

    http://www.fttrc.org/ scroll to the bottom for a link to the bike park proposal.. ( site seems a little slow tonight, sorry)

  48. #48
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    Pothole -Thanks.

    I hope you can come out to a trail work day in the spring. There will be plenty of them, and much help is needed.
    ...building wherever they'll let me...

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbkrdr98
    There not giving us enough. I've been here 4 years and we still don't have crap. I could have ridden the dual freeride comp downtown, I saw the course and have all confidence I could ride it. guess I'll get more involved in Ian's trails up there come spring, when I'll have a big bike myself (yet again) and run flat pedals. going to spend more time on that and practicing at Willow, and just use the road bike for fitness.

    anyhoo, SWIMBA, I hope they change under Ian's direction. Things are suggested and they take forever to do anything and meanwhile, like Brad said, there's nothing here to improve upon. I can't go do the road gap at ussery and go big, but what is there small to medium to start on. I don't want to go more towards XC, I want to go more towards freeride

    EDIT: even tho I don't have the riding skill that Ian and them have in their little pinky, I absolutely cannot stand the racer boy XC mentality here, I hate it! It's not that I don't respect fitness levels, training, etc. I really do! But they pass you due to fitness on a climb, with no clue of what real riding skills are all about. Ughhh. whatever.

    When RtoR or SWIMBA or whoever let's us build flowy, long XC/All Mountain IN THE FOOTHILLS, with a lot of booters on the flow, and even some man made dropoffs, etc. then I'll believe we're getting something back.
    I agree with your perspective on the freeride scene. I used to be into XC, but now I am working on progressing into Freeride. I would suggest that you do some of the smaller stuff at Ussery (i.e. the stepdown, step-up,trail-gaps, and some of the hips), as those are mid-size jumps that will eventually work you up to doing stuff like the roadgap. However, I would love if there were some other options as far as mid-level freeride goes.
    Quote Originally Posted by trevor
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