Help us keep the Bogus freeride trail alive- Mtbr.com
Results 1 to 46 of 46
  1. #1
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    101

    Help us keep the Bogus freeride trail alive

    Hey there,

    My guess is this post will not apply to anyone who reads this site, but I am hoping you all can help us get the word out. We are noticing much more riding activity up on the Bogus freeride trail which is great.......the trail is not complete yet but we are getting close and it's a great opportunity for folks in this area to gain exposure to some more challenging riding.

    The problem is, we are seeing significant trail damage from people going around the various jumps/drops/stunts. We totally understand that not everyone is ready to hit everything right off the bat, all we ask is that, if you are not going to hit the various features, please at least pick up your bike and walk around to the next section of trail before remounting. What is happening now is folks are riding around various doubles/drops/stunts and destroying the landers/trannies in the process as they ride their brakes down the hill. Not only is this going to cause erosion, but it is dangerous to the folks that are hitting the trail.......we have had several instances where the folks riding around everything are, knowingly or not, also dragging debris in to the landers......fortunately, we always walk the trail to check it out before riding, but some folks may not always do that and I hate to see someone get injured.

    We are going to be doing things up there to "encourage" folks not to ride around the features (placing debris in the paths, etc.) so please, just pick up your bike and walk around if you choose not to do certain features.

    Thanks much for the help everyone.

  2. #2
    TRAIL KUBUKI CORNDOGGER
    Reputation: TwistedCrank's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    2,980
    Are there any plans for signage at the trail entrances? (e.g., rules of the trail like "Don't bust our trails if you can't free them"). You may consider talking to Bogus Basin about this - if they're commited to supporting freeride terrain they should also be commited to sustaining the trails. Thay might be willing to support with a kiosk.

    There are also good trail building techniques that will force riders to dismount if they can't do a line. Not only should you build good stunts but you should also build good alternatives - in this case portages. Or filters to keep less skilled riders off.
    Last edited by TwistedCrank; 07-09-2007 at 01:38 PM.
    Nobody cares what kind of bike you ride.

  3. #3
    Don't worry, be happy!
    Reputation: formica's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    8,140
    what TC said, plus

    Many well designed FR trails and parks leave a bail out option around all
    features. This is because if you don't design go arounds into your trail,
    people WILL create them just as you describe. especially the people that
    probably shouldn't be on said trail. Or, the trail may be designed to
    filter out users that shouldn't be there. Do you have adequate signage and
    mapping, so riders can choose their routes according to the information they
    have?

    Do you have a copy of the new Managing Mountain Biking book from
    IMBA? It has several chapters devoted specifically to tips and concepts for
    managing free ride trails and parks, which includes keeping the folks who shouldn't be on a trail, off of it.

  4. #4
    mtbr member
    Reputation: lonbalz's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    196
    This FR trail is built mainly for advanced riders. That is why it is being built. There are many user friendly trails in the R-to-R trail system that many, if not all people can ride. This trail is being designed for mainly freeride because of there being a large number of other trails that are built for everyone to ride. And those trails cannot not have drops/jumps of significant size/stunts to ride...This is the sole reason behind the Bogus freeride trail.

    There has been discussion of putting up signs lately due to the people going around the stunts. If you need to go around like 2planker110 mentioned, just remember to tread lightly.

    There has been much hard work put into this trail by the handful of freeriders in the community. Building the alternate lines (portages) takes time and effort. If people would like those lines built, they should get together with the appropriate parties and discuss this. Those lines are something that would probably have to be built by the persons who would be using them. But, once again, this is supppose to be a freeride trail. Bogus is the one place that this type of trail has been approved and I know many would like to keep it that way.

    I agree with what TC and formica have to say regarding keeping people off the trail that shouldn't be there. But, there are gonna be those that don't care and do what they want regardless. Maybe by putting some signs up would help remedy this situation. I would hope so. I know people who have put in time and effort building this trail don't want to see the trail ruined from careless users.

  5. #5
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    396
    Quote Originally Posted by formica
    Many well designed FR trails and parks leave a bail out option around all
    features. This is because if you don't design go arounds into your trail,
    people WILL create them just as you describe. especially the people that
    probably shouldn't be on said trail.
    duh. this seems obvious to me. build in bail out options that rejoin the main trail clear of the landing zone.

    on a similar subject, what about the possibility of putting occasional gnarlier obstacles on optional lines on more mainstream trails? we were working on some stuff like this in ely, making the the trails pretty easy (i thought), but having a couple sections with an optional gnarly drop-off line. the USFS down there seemed pretty hip to the idea.
    mark weaver
    kuna, id

  6. #6
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    101
    Great points all, and we will definitely continue to try to encourage folks to not tear up the trail by riding around the jumps/drops/stunts.

    However, I do need to make a couple of points regarding the trail. I don't think Bogus is so much "commited to supporting freeride terrain" as they are simply allowing us to build a moderately challenging freeride trail on their land.......for which, we are deeply grateful as there are currently zero legal options to do this. I don't believe they have any intention of expanding operations and running lifts in the Summer. This may change in the future, but right now I believe that is their stance. Up to this point, there have been about 6 to 7 people who have built 98% of the trail and contributed all the money/lumber/supplies/man hours to create the trail.

    I think the sign up at the top is a good idea......we will get to work on putting something up there. The trail is one trail, so a map probably isn't necessary.

    I understand the points about alternatives and "portages" as well. If this were a freeride park being run for-profit where people were being paid to build the trail, then you would see things being built to accomodate the lowest common denominator. However, this is a trail being built by volunteers looking for a somewhat challenging alternative to the hundreds of miles of wonderful XC trails available to Boise riders.......because of this, you are seeing things being built to the levels people actually building the trail would like to take things. I do not believe a riding alternative is necessary for every feature.......those of us building this trail have been fortunate enough to ride a fair amount in Canada and many of those trails offer no alternatives.......the alternative for me last week on a trail called "The Awakener" in Nelson, BC was to fall 16 feet to the ground. Although I have never heard the term "portage" used for trails before, I do believe all the features on the trail up at Bogus allow you to easily pick up your bike and walk around.

    Enough of my speeches. We will continue to do our best to make this the best freeride trail in Idaho.......thanks to all for your help.

  7. #7
    Sheepherder/Cat Herder Moderator
    Reputation: Visicypher's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    2,715
    Mark,

    We started adding more features to the trails below the road. It is slow, but it is a start.

    On an unrelated note...with all the construction...we are all starting to learn we are gonna have to start managing users to keep what we build safe and sustainable.
    ...building wherever they'll let me...

  8. #8
    Steel is Real
    Reputation: Boberinoe's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    187

    Junior high kids

    Some of it might be due to some junior high freeride junkies. I know a dj'er that always goes with his friends on all the mid-bogus trails. I've meet some of them, they talk a big game but their just learning. They've already done a number on Ussery.

  9. #9
    Don't worry, be happy!
    Reputation: formica's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    8,140
    signs will also CYA in that once the dangers are posted, people who choose to disregard them can't plead ignorance of the dangers.

    Although I hear what you are saying about all the easy trails - the best park systems have green, blue, and diamond fr trails to provide an appropriate progression.

    If this were a freeride park being run for-profit where people were being paid to build the trail, then you would see things being built to accomodate the lowest common denominator. However, this is a trail being built by volunteers looking for a somewhat challenging alternative to the hundreds of miles of wonderful XC trails available to Boise riders.......because of this, you are seeing things being built to the levels people actually building the trail would like to take things.
    That's great, but you are still going to have to cover your butt if the single advanced trail is not managed to minimize risk and liability; if it's not handled appropriately to keep the barneys off of it. One single incident, some asshat with a sleazy lawyer......

    For the record, I am a volunteer with 100's of hours in, this year alone, in turning Beacon Hill ( Spokane) into a City mountain bike park. The best way to work with the powers that be is to show them you are serving someone bigger than your self and your own personal needs: the needs of the community. And getting paid...bwahahahah...for profit....bwahahaha..... this stuff is mostly volunteer generated with lots of committed uppaid hours. . Post Canyon, Black Rock, Collonade, City of Snohomish... volunteer, volunteer, volunteer..... for profit, when is my check coming? I can't wait!! Sorry I'm just cranky because I am getting more meetings than riding in these days.

    in the meantime, maybe you need one of these, courtesy Post Canyon
    Attached Images Attached Images

  10. #10
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    101
    I love your sign......she will be incorporated. Thanks much.

  11. #11
    Don't worry, be happy!
    Reputation: formica's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    8,140
    not mine, that's from Post Canyon

  12. #12
    Hoops - Big and Small
    Reputation: Crash_Burn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    1,083

    Freeriding is Expensive

    Quote Originally Posted by 2planker110
    Up to this point, there have been about 6 to 7 people who have built 98% of the trail and contributed all the money/lumber/supplies/man hours to create the trail.
    Wow where to start - glad to hear your getting a fix on some new stunts.

    It's a chicken and egg scenario - unfortunately not many of the LBS's stock freeride bikes. In reality if you want more people to join in you'll have to build trails that support the current bikes in the Boise market.

    Once people get the bug and bust up there lightwieght rigs they'll ask the LBS's to stock more bikes.

    For now this means more skills than drops. More skinnies, teeters, ladder bridges and less hucks and big air drops.

    Thanks for posting in this forum, hopefully you'll get more support for your trails your working on.

    Oh and this thread is useless without pictures!

  13. #13
    mtbr member
    Reputation: AlliKat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    1,386
    I just have to say I'd rather put my time in on eastside area trails because I won't be doing big freeride stuff ever. I enjoy playing with skinnies, teeter totters and such. I would be more willing to put time in on the freeride area if it wasn't limited to the big stuff.

    That said, it would be really nice if you guys would think about the points being made. You're not the first people with this problem. Easy and reasonable solutions to your problem have been identified, you just need to use them.
    Oh sh!+ just force upgraded to cat1. Now what?
    Best thing about an ultra marathon? I just get to ride my bike for X hours!

  14. #14
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    101
    Trails up at Bogus will continue to reflect the riding styles of those who build up there.....we live in an area with infinite non-technical options for those so inclined. Didn't put original post up to try to recruit more people to build or to hopefully convert the Boise world to freeriding.......AlliKat, if you prefer to put in your trail time on Eastside area trails, that is great........all we are trying to do is keep people from damaging the trail and potentially hurting themselves and/or others. Think of it as me saying "if you don't roll around my ladder bridge up at Bogus and skid down my lander, creating a flat landing for me off the drop, I won't interrupt your beautifully buff single track up at Eastside with a 20 foot double" Our original goal when we started building this thing about a year ago was to create one legal freeride option in an area that is totally XC focused.......nothing wrong with this area's focus on XC, and also nothing wrong with wanting to have one freeride trail option to ride

    Thanks to all for your suggestions/feedback, it really is appreciated

  15. #15
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    101
    Oh and this thread is useless without pictures![/QUOTE]

    Crash/Burn.....you asked for pics. Here are two taken last week on The Awakener near Nelson, BC......God I wish we could make stuff like this here.......
    Attached Images Attached Images

  16. #16
    Cleavage Of The Tetons
    Reputation: rideit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    5,865
    Well, as a semi-professional builder myself, if these trails are fair game for anyone to ride, you are either going to have to build ride-arounds, or battle with what you are dealing with.
    Canada is a whole different culture, and world view on riding and risk.
    Sorry, but it's true.
    Good luck, but if you did build decent ride arounds, the least amount of damage (and resentment) will occur, IMO.
    "We LOVE cows! They make trails for us.....

    And then we eat them."

    Thrill Bikers Unite!

  17. #17
    TRAIL KUBUKI CORNDOGGER
    Reputation: TwistedCrank's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    2,980
    Two other things to consider:

    Ridge to Rivers will be publishing a map of the Shafer Butte area in the next couple of months which will be for sale at LBSes. Although the focus of the map will be the trail riding, the freeriding on Shafer Butte will be featured prominently.

    Trailpalooza will be held at Shafer Butte in early August. Although the event is billed as a "family mountain bike gathering", you can bet there are going to be some big bikes showing up wondering where's the beef.

    So like it on not, not only is Shafer Butte freeriding on the radar, but this time the revolution will be televised.

    (That's a fancy way of saying that the freeride lines are going to see more and more traffic in the near future, good on yah and good luck to yah.)
    Nobody cares what kind of bike you ride.

  18. #18
    mtbr member
    Reputation: lonbalz's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    196
    There's nothing with the freeride lines seeing more traffic in the future. However, those who don't like the bigger stuff should come up and help build trail. By doing that, there could be some smaller stunts built for them to ride on. It's pretty simple, just come and help build in order to get some stunts that suit your riding style. Just as mentioned above, the trail will reflect the riding style of those that help build.

    As far as ride arounds being built, maybe those that would like those should put some time and effort into building them. This would allow those who do not want to ride certain parts of the trail to safely go around. It's the same principle as the people building the stunts. They want advanced features to ride, so they build them. It seems as if people want smaller stunts they can ride, but those people don't seem to ever help work on the trail. Wonder why there's not smaller stunts? hmmmmmmm I think it would be great to see more people come up and build and ride up there. This would allow for more features to be built along the lines of beginner, intermediate, and advanced freeride. When you have such a small number of people building this type of trail, they prefer to build stuff to their liking instead of building features for everyone. With more people building however, a wider range of beginner to advanced features could be built to suit everyone.

  19. #19
    Don't worry, be happy!
    Reputation: formica's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    8,140
    Quote Originally Posted by rideit
    Canada is a whole different culture, and world view on riding and risk.Sorry, but it's true.
    lol, ain't that the truth.....

  20. #20
    Don't worry, be happy!
    Reputation: formica's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    8,140
    Quote Originally Posted by kpnalder1
    There's nothing with the freeride lines seeing more traffic in the future. However, those who don't like the bigger stuff should come up and help build trail. By doing that, there could be some smaller stunts built for them to ride on. It's pretty simple, just come and help build in order to get some stunts that suit your riding style. Just as mentioned above, the trail will reflect the riding style of those that help build.

    As far as ride arounds being built, maybe those that would like those should put some time and effort into building them. This would allow those who do not want to ride certain parts of the trail to safely go around. It's the same principle as the people building the stunts. They want advanced features to ride, so they build them. It seems as if people want smaller stunts they can ride, but those people don't seem to ever help work on the trail. Wonder why there's not smaller stunts? hmmmmmmm I think it would be great to see more people come up and build and ride up there. This would allow for more features to be built along the lines of beginner, intermediate, and advanced freeride. When you have such a small number of people building this type of trail, they prefer to build stuff to their liking instead of building features for everyone. With more people building however, a wider range of beginner to advanced features could be built to suit everyone.
    First let me say that you are right in that more folks should help. That is always the case. As a volunteer who fends off advocacy burnout daily, I wish I had the magic wand that would bring tons of volunteers out to the trails.

    BUT - I'd like to gently suggest that you think of building community along with trails, and think bigger than just what YOU want to ride. Think of ways to bring the mtb community together instead of divisive "us" ( the experts) vs. "everyone else". Heck, I am working on a freeride park and I don't even own a freeride or downhill bike!! I help build stuff that I couldn't ride in 100 years, but I can see beyond what I want, and to what benefits the whole bike community. And in the long run, I will get part of what I want, which is really easy stuff (think Family Man in Post Canyon) to ride.

    Let's say you do build go arounds on your trail. It's pretty easy to predict that people who are on it who are over their heads will notice, and be more inspired to aspire to try parts of it, or to think positively of what you are trying to do. Leave it as it is, and you get a bunch of potential users and potential volunteers pissed off and annoyed, and less likely to help out in the future and really set yourself up for potential liability hassles. Just one way to spin it guys, and I am all for positive action.

    /puts away soapbox

    ~formica

  21. #21
    sp2
    sp2 is offline

    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    9
    New to the area but very familiar with the trials and tribulations of catching air and pushing bikes to the limits. Trials, dirt jumping, freeride, freestyle and basically anything with the wheels leaving ground is the forbidden fruit of cycling/biking. Not sure what the big deal is but considering Idaho’s terrain and ranking for mountain biking you would think there were more options for technical trails especially around Boise. I’m wondering why someone would want the builders at bogus to create a less challenging trail at the top of a mountain or even a copout. Skinnies can be found on curbs in front of your house; jumps can be found at Willow Lane, a 2x4 and a log in the back yard for a teeter and ride off the back of your truck for drops. ”The Hard Guy trail is a little to steep for me is it possible to have another parking lot half way up or maybe some free payphones every mile to call a friend in case I cant make it”. Why would a builder create something that doesn’t even challenge them especially at the top of a mountain? These guys have progressed to a level rarely achieved and you want them to build a beginner course because your too lazy to work on your skills. For me and many others to see something like this being built is a dream come true. If the pics posted don’t look desirable or achievable ride the other 19,000 miles of trails in Idaho and let them decide the fate of their mile. Let’s help these guys out and get the word out that these trails are for experienced freeriders not experienced XC riders. If you feel the need to ride it at least donate some time or supplies and practice your skills somewhere more convenient.

  22. #22
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    101
    Wow.....all these posts from simply asking folks to walk their bikes around features they can't ride at Bogus......

    Something for folks to think about here. Everyone seems to want us to accommodate every Tom, Dick and Harry on the Bogus freeride trail by building "portages"/alternate lines and God knows what else to help everyone get through those horrible, intimidating features. If I came at any one of you with the exact same request to accommodate us with some more aggressive features on any of the hundreds of miles of foothill trails, you would all come back with how we are ruining the trails by not keeping them natural, "keep singletrack single", and probably a hundred other ways of saying "no way in hell".

    I think the important thing to remember here is we live in an area with exactly 1 freeride trail that is less than a mile long. It happens to be located in an area with thousands of miles of dirt sidewalks and absolutely no opportunity for someone to improve their technical riding skills. I have nothing against those dirt sidewalks and I ride them as well.......I just like having some alternatives that allow me to broaden my skills. I am not a Red Bull fueled 20 something (although I happen to like those people) who is recklessly hucking his carcass off anything in site. I am a 40 year old dude who has about half the skills of a lot of other folks (and I find out just how bad I am everytime I head to the Great White North) but instead of feeling threatened by those with more skill than I and who ride stuff more challenging than I can ride, I enjoy learning from them and practicing my ass off so that I can maybe one day do the same things......it's this progression that keeps me interested in mountain biking and that Bogus trail is the only thing in this area that allows me to pursue this. For some folks, the heart monitor is their progression yardstick, and that is great for them. But for me and others in this town, challenging features are our heart monitors.

    Regarding this whole building for others and not being so selfish stuff, I have two things to say:
    1 - My wife and I are building a place in Nelson, BC. We will be there in the Summers starting next year so we can ride the trails we love. I will continue to work on the freeride trail at Bogus because I happen to really like the guys who are up there working their asses off with me to build this trail and ride it........and I am selfish because I still plan to ride the Bogus trail in the Spring and Fall.
    2 - I've said it before but I'll say it again. We live in Boise, Idaho.....the land of the dirt sidewalk. This Bogus trail is the only legal freeride option in our entire area so you'll have to excuse me if I don't spend anytime creating some more buff singletrack. I liken the arguments that we have to dumb down our trail to accommodate all Boise riders to a 500 pound morbidly obese individual complaining because I ate one chicken leg from his super size bucket of KFC.


    At any rate, this has been a lively discussion......have a good evening everyone.

  23. #23
    HIKE!
    Reputation: sparrow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    1,657
    I don't think anyone is telling you to dumb your trail down for others. Other posters are simply pointing out the grim reality that less skilled riders will skid in their own go-around/cheater lines. And it will continue to be right into your landing zones. Provide the cheater lines that you could approve of, and your features stay safe. Simple. People are much like sheep or cattle.

    Good work on fighting for and providing the FR riding! Do what you think is best for your trail, but keep in mind that the sheeple will need managing from time to time. Just do what gets you the least frustration so you don't get high blood pressure. Your heart should race from the trill of riding, not the angst of cleaning up and rebuilding landing zones all day.

  24. #24
    mtbr member
    Reputation: lonbalz's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    196

    Agreed

    Quote Originally Posted by 2planker110
    Wow.....all these posts from simply asking folks to walk their bikes around features they can't ride at Bogus......

    Something for folks to think about here. Everyone seems to want us to accommodate every Tom, Dick and Harry on the Bogus freeride trail by building "portages"/alternate lines and God knows what else to help everyone get through those horrible, intimidating features. If I came at any one of you with the exact same request to accommodate us with some more aggressive features on any of the hundreds of miles of foothill trails, you would all come back with how we are ruining the trails by not keeping them natural, "keep singletrack single", and probably a hundred other ways of saying "no way in hell".

    I think the important thing to remember here is we live in an area with exactly 1 freeride trail that is less than a mile long. It happens to be located in an area with thousands of miles of dirt sidewalks and absolutely no opportunity for someone to improve their technical riding skills. I have nothing against those dirt sidewalks and I ride them as well.......I just like having some alternatives that allow me to broaden my skills. I am not a Red Bull fueled 20 something (although I happen to like those people) who is recklessly hucking his carcass off anything in site. I am a 40 year old dude who has about half the skills of a lot of other folks (and I find out just how bad I am everytime I head to the Great White North) but instead of feeling threatened by those with more skill than I and who ride stuff more challenging than I can ride, I enjoy learning from them and practicing my ass off so that I can maybe one day do the same things......it's this progression that keeps me interested in mountain biking and that Bogus trail is the only thing in this area that allows me to pursue this. For some folks, the heart monitor is their progression yardstick, and that is great for them. But for me and others in this town, challenging features are our heart monitors.

    Regarding this whole building for others and not being so selfish stuff, I have two things to say:
    1 - My wife and I are building a place in Nelson, BC. We will be there in the Summers starting next year so we can ride the trails we love. I will continue to work on the freeride trail at Bogus because I happen to really like the guys who are up there working their asses off with me to build this trail and ride it........and I am selfish because I still plan to ride the Bogus trail in the Spring and Fall.
    2 - I've said it before but I'll say it again. We live in Boise, Idaho.....the land of the dirt sidewalk. This Bogus trail is the only legal freeride option in our entire area so you'll have to excuse me if I don't spend anytime creating some more buff singletrack. I liken the arguments that we have to dumb down our trail to accommodate all Boise riders to a 500 pound morbidly obese individual complaining because I ate one chicken leg from his super size bucket of KFC.


    At any rate, this has been a lively discussion......have a good evening everyone.
    I am very much in aggreement with you on this one. The one legal freeride trail does not need to be dumbed down because people can't ride it! I would hope that people realize this and would respect it. There are many, many, many, and many miles of singletrack to ride that I ride often. We respect those trails and all that was asked is that the one freeride trail be respected. Anything technical in the trail and all of a sudden people want to build alternate lines around it. People have complained about stunts being built on or around the foothills trails in the past. Well, now that there is a legal freeride trail being built, people want it to contain easier/smaller stunts OR even alternate lines around it so they can ride it too. Guess you can't win em all.

    Just yesterday, was coming down Bob's with another rider who has spent many, many hours building that trail at Bogus and noticed that riders have been creating an alternating line around the one tech rock feature... Why? Is it really that hard to push your bike over that spot? No, it's not. I see women I ride with do it all the time and they don't have a problem with it. All that little push/ride around is doing is creating erosion and ruining the trail. That spot looks horrible now because of this. Myself and the other rider took some time to put rocks and sticks in it to deter people from using that alternate line. Don't know if it will work, but it's worth trying.

  25. #25
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    396
    Quote Originally Posted by sparrow
    I don't think anyone is telling you to dumb your trail down for others. Other posters are simply pointing out the grim reality that less skilled riders will skid in their own go-around/cheater lines. And it will continue to be right into your landing zones. Provide the cheater lines that you could approve of, and your features stay safe. Simple. People are much like sheep or cattle.
    exactly. i could care less whether you dumb down your trail or not, but it seems obvious that if you don't, you will continue to have the same problems unless you adapt motorcyclist techniques for keeping quads off trails, i.e., hiding and camouflaging the trail, or having completely impassable obstacles at the start. of course for a bicycle, an impassable obstacle would probably require a guy with a gun, since it's easy to just pick it up and walk around.
    mark weaver
    kuna, id

  26. #26
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    3,223

    Ditto

    Quote Originally Posted by 2planker110
    Wow.....all these posts from simply asking folks to walk their bikes around features they can't ride at Bogus......

    Something for folks to think about here. Everyone seems to want us to accommodate every Tom, Dick and Harry on the Bogus freeride trail by building "portages"/alternate lines and God knows what else to help everyone get through those horrible, intimidating features. If I came at any one of you with the exact same request to accommodate us with some more aggressive features on any of the hundreds of miles of foothill trails, you would all come back with how we are ruining the trails by not keeping them natural, "keep singletrack single", and probably a hundred other ways of saying "no way in hell".

    I think the important thing to remember here is we live in an area with exactly 1 freeride trail that is less than a mile long. It happens to be located in an area with thousands of miles of dirt sidewalks and absolutely no opportunity for someone to improve their technical riding skills. I have nothing against those dirt sidewalks and I ride them as well.......I just like having some alternatives that allow me to broaden my skills. I am not a Red Bull fueled 20 something (although I happen to like those people) who is recklessly hucking his carcass off anything in site. I am a 40 year old dude who has about half the skills of a lot of other folks (and I find out just how bad I am everytime I head to the Great White North) but instead of feeling threatened by those with more skill than I and who ride stuff more challenging than I can ride, I enjoy learning from them and practicing my ass off so that I can maybe one day do the same things......it's this progression that keeps me interested in mountain biking and that Bogus trail is the only thing in this area that allows me to pursue this. For some folks, the heart monitor is their progression yardstick, and that is great for them. But for me and others in this town, challenging features are our heart monitors.

    Regarding this whole building for others and not being so selfish stuff, I have two things to say:
    1 - My wife and I are building a place in Nelson, BC. We will be there in the Summers starting next year so we can ride the trails we love. I will continue to work on the freeride trail at Bogus because I happen to really like the guys who are up there working their asses off with me to build this trail and ride it........and I am selfish because I still plan to ride the Bogus trail in the Spring and Fall.
    2 - I've said it before but I'll say it again. We live in Boise, Idaho.....the land of the dirt sidewalk. This Bogus trail is the only legal freeride option in our entire area so you'll have to excuse me if I don't spend anytime creating some more buff singletrack. I liken the arguments that we have to dumb down our trail to accommodate all Boise riders to a 500 pound morbidly obese individual complaining because I ate one chicken leg from his super size bucket of KFC.


    At any rate, this has been a lively discussion......have a good evening everyone.
    2planker110,

    we have a lot in common, including our age range. I couldn't agree more with what you just said!

  27. #27
    Don't worry, be happy!
    Reputation: formica's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    8,140
    Quote Originally Posted by sparrow
    I don't think anyone is telling you to dumb your trail down for others. Other posters are simply pointing out the grim reality that less skilled riders will skid in their own go-around/cheater lines. And it will continue to be right into your landing zones. Provide the cheater lines that you could approve of, and your features stay safe. Simple. People are much like sheep or cattle.

    excellent synthesis of the discussion.

  28. #28
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    700

    At least they are looking!

    There seems to be two big issues that are causing problems. The first is the finite number of trail builders and the second is the freeride scene im Boise is in its infancy and will take a while to mature. The biking community will grow if we are just patient and let it slowly happen. It only seems like yesterday that Brad and Ian where working on Rock Island and now there is the beginnings of a real freeride trail!

    The good news is people are actually going up and looking at the new freeride trail at Bogus even if they are walking around the structures. Unfortunately ignorance truly is bliss and those going around the features have no idea they are destroying the landing etc. The people destroying your trail today will likely be your advocates and trail building partners in the future. Build on the curiosity and don’t dissuade them from seeing the possibilities in their future riding capabilities.

    No matter what you do, people will find a way to take short cuts or alter your trails. It’s just a fact of life and a major frustration for those of us building trial. Like cattle they may need funneled in the direction you want them to go. Have you thought about flagging a route around the features with tape? Time and volunteers permitting maybe even a reroute with an entry level skinny etc. I know this takes time away from building the advanced features but if you don’t, it will be a constant maintenance battle.

    Advice comes cheap but backing it up with your back and some sweat comes at a greater expense. Rather than just offering advice I will donate some of my time toward reroutes or flagging. This way you and the majority of trial builders can focus on the features and not be distracted by the by-passes. I am available on Tuesday and Thursday evenings.

    Hopefully when this seasons reroutes at Stack are completed, the trail building passion will have taken root and some of the volunteers will help work on trials at Bogus. Trails systems are only as good as those with a passion to dig!!!!
    Last edited by Irishbuddha; 07-10-2007 at 12:16 PM.

  29. #29
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    101
    Quote Originally Posted by velosapiens
    of course for a bicycle, an impassable obstacle would probably require a guy with a gun, since it's easy to just pick it up and walk around.
    That was exactly my point with the original post......if you can't handle a feature in the trail, please just pick up your bike and walk around it, then continue on your merry way. We are not trying to restrict/limit/or otherwise hinder people's experience up there, just trying to minimize trail damage.

    Irishbuddha......awesome, thanks for the offer! Here's the skinny. Myself and Jason "The Agent" Friday will be up there this Thursday evening after work. We are going to try to bolt early from work so we can be up there by about 5:30PM. However, from a work perspective, we plan to do very little Thursday night......the only things we plan to do are put up some signs that Jason just created and pick up some trash......we may also haul some more lumber down to the skinny section we are currently working on near the bottom......but most of all, we will be riding. However, that doesn't mean this Thursday wouldn't be a good opportunity for you to come up and see the trail (I am assuming you haven't seen it yet.....maybe my assumption is wrong) and get your feel for what might work as far as building ride-arounds/portages/whatever the hell you want to call them. We will also be going up this Saturday morning (we actually meet at Ridley's at 5AM and get up there around 5:45AM) to get back to work on our skinny section.......but it doesn't sound like that day works for you. If you do want to come up, just drive up the road that goes from the Bogus base up to the top lodge (Pioneer?).....about midway up you will see my white POS Civic with hitch mount bike rack parked on the side of the road.....all you need to do is walk across the road and follow the cat track up the hill a ways until you see the wood structures. If you need better instructions, let me know and I can give you a call.

    We typically put in time one night a week (usually Wednesday or Thursday) and then one morning on the weekends......it's been Saturday's lately. Our usual schedule is to work a couple hours and ride a couple hours, just depends on the mood of the folks up there. Thanks for the offer

  30. #30
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    700

    See you Thursday.

    I will come up and help you move some timber and see if there is something that could be done for route arounds.

    Mike e.

  31. #31
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Mitrovarr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    38
    You know, I think most of the problem here stems from two things:

    A. People don't know what the trail has in store, and thus, are riding it when it is inappropriate for their skill level and/or equipment.

    B. People don't know that riding around your stunts hurts anything. It isn't exactly self-evident, particularly once a few people have done it and there's a trail.

    I think you could probably solve both with signs. Be clear and intimidating - something like "This is a freeride trail requiring special equipment and techniques. A bicycle not specifically designed for freeride or downhill use will be damaged or destroyed by riding this trail. A rider not trained in the proper techniques will be injured or killed. Do not attempt to ride this trail unless you have both the proper equipment and skill for freeride or downhill riding" Make another sign asking users to walk their bike around obstacles they are not willing to tackle, in nice friendly large letters. It would probably be more effective if it was polite rather than intimidating like the other.

    I think a lot of xc or trail riders simply don't know how bad these trails are and think they (and their equipment) can handle them. I mean, before reading this post, I'd probably have tried the trail (I haven't seen a freeride trail before and had no idea they were this severe), freaked completely out at the sight of the first obstacle (which I know would probably crumple my bike's frame like it was made out of newspaper), and, if there was a trail around it, probably ridden around. It is completely non-obvious that riding around obstacles is bad for them - probably most of the people who do it think that you guys put the trail there, for that express purpose. In the absence of any signage, that's what I would have thought. Of course, now that I've read this I'm not going anywhere near your trail (I don't have the equipment nor the training) and if I did, I would walk around stuff I couldn't do, but you can't expect people to know that. This post was a good idea, but I don't think you're going to reach even 1% of the people who cause you problems. You need signs at the trailhead, if Bogus will let you put them up.

  32. #32
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    101
    Mitrovarr, I think you nailed it......we just need to get some signage up there so people understand what they are getting in to and understand that riding around the features is damaging the trail......we will be putting those up tomorrow.

    Regarding the ride-arounds, Irishbuddha has graciously offered to come check it out tomorrow. Personally, I don't think the trail is going to be very conducive to ride-arounds, but we shall see. The features are all one after the other and the only way I can see to build a ride-around up there without impacting the existing features is to create a parallel XC trail......which seems kind of dumb to me. However, I am not the expert on these things so I appreciate Irishbuddha offering to come up and take a look. At a minimum we will be working on better ways to encourage folks to carry their bikes around the various features.

    Regarding whether Bogus has OK'd this trail, the answer is "yes". We flagged the entire trail off in August of last year and walked through it with them. They have also seen the construction as it has progressed and have been cool with it. We also bring down all the wood structures as soon as the snow flies so there are no unnatural obstacles up there during ski season.......not a small task.

  33. #33
    Sheepherder/Cat Herder Moderator
    Reputation: Visicypher's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    2,715
    Formica -

    Freeride area is entirely on private land. Plz - Check your PMs.
    ...building wherever they'll let me...

  34. #34
    just a man
    Reputation: Bombin4X's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    1,860

    Graduations

    I would be interested in learning how-to and helping build any lines/features/stunts that could act as training grounds for the bigger stuff. 98 and GetLost and I have discussed something like this in the past, I just wouldn't know where to begin. I'm on Ian's mailing list and still would like to assist up there if there are some additional days planned. I also would like to help with Al's continued efforts across the road. Time seems to be at a premium right now for a lot of people.

  35. #35
    let freedom ring!
    Reputation: Get Lost's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    154

    What Bombin4x said..

    "I think the important thing to remember here is we live in an area with exactly 1 freeride trail that is less than a mile long. It happens to be located in an area with thousands of miles of dirt sidewalks and absolutely no opportunity for someone to improve their technical riding skills." Planker.

    I have never been up to the Freeride trail, I want to but there is just nothing there I think I can ride. I don't want to offend anyone with these questions and that is not the point of my questions so I apologize now if they do offend someone, so here goes.

    If I understand right the Spudhucksters are interested in expanding the interest in and availability of Freeride trails Ian, Patrick, correct me if I am wrong here because I may be. In order to do that I would think that the number of free riders would need to increase. Planker pointed it out exactly when he said, there is "absolutely no opportunity for someone to improve their technical riding skills."

    There has been alot of talk about "go arounds" or "portages" Planker, would it be possible to build smaller stunts next to the larger ones? Or is this against what the management at Bogus has agreed upon? I wouldn't see that as dumbing down the trail but providing an opportunity to increase the number of freeriders in the area. I would definitely be willing to help build these. I say help because like Bombin, I wouldn't have a clue how to build them. I think this would be a good way to progress the freeride movement allowing people to build skills and do the stunts that you have built. The more people we have here in the area that learn to ride that stuff the more demand there will be for it and the demand for freeride trails will increase.

    I would love to learn to ride the trail you have built, but I also think that if I went up there I would end up walking around a lot of them if not all of them. I may even try some of them but I wouldn't know until I see them and in order to see them I would have to walk around them. It would make sense to me that on a trail like that you would want a pathway that directs people like me around the stunts where it wont impact the trail or landing like talked about earlier.

    Ok, I think I am rambling now. Like I said I am not trying to offend anyone here just trying to explore different ideas, and inform everyone including me of different points of view on this whole thing.
    My God! How little do my countrymen know what precious blessings they are in possession of, and which no other people on earth enjoy! ~Thomas Jefferson

  36. #36
    sp2
    sp2 is offline

    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    9
    I think you would be wasting your time and gas driving up to bogus and probably learn nothing. I started a new thread that might help some of you out if you put in the time. Willow Lane, curbs for skinnies, ride out your buddy’s truck for drops. I learned to bunny hop 5ft from an ascending loading dock and taught others as well who had no skills at. I’m not suggesting anyone unskilled around here but where I’m from there is only one trail and it’s paved. City officials won’t allow it and the City is near the size of Boise. Both wheels have to be on the ground at the same time or you will be ticketed, I was ticketed for doing wheelies. Check out the thread

  37. #37
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    101
    Get Lost......your questions are all excellent ones and not offensive in the least. I could not agree with you more regarding the need for a freeride area that allows folks to ease in to this whole thing by practicing on smaller stuff and working their way up. However, here is the situation we have in Boise. Bogus Basin has been gracious enough to allow us to build a freeride trail on their private land. Right now, we are OK'd for one trail, and it is the trail we flagged off and showed them in August of last year. They had a few requirements for us when we built it.....could not be aesthetically unpleasant (we will be cleaning stuff up up there tomorrow night to insure we keep it nice) with good solid construction on the stunts, and it had to be built in such a way as to minimize erosion. Also, we have the OK for one trail. Because of this, the trail has taken on the riding personalities of the folks that have built it......what I mean by that, is folks built stuff that they felt would challenge them. If you haven't been up there, I would really encourage you to do so.......it is not as intimidating as some posts might lead folks to believe. Up North, I believe it would be considered an intermediate trail.......that said, it is definitely the most advanced legal trail in this area.

    Now, once this trail is complete, there may be the opportunity to build more. I say "may" because nothing has been approved at this point. If that opportunity arises, and people like yourself who would like to build smaller technical features come up to build, I am sure we can do that.

    While I understand your point about smaller stunts next to the large stuff, it really isn't feasible. In general, when building a trail like this, you need to focus on the one trail. Having optional stunts/lines can get messy quickly and lead to an erosive, non-sustainable trail......especially in the fairly tight quarters we have built this trail in. We had one alternate line built in to the trail last year and it has still not been put back up because we found the whole alternate line thing to not really work......we may put her back up, but likely not until we have completed the lower section of the trail.

    I too wish there were more places to practice in Boise, and my understanding is that the velodrome thing is going to start next Fall and a freeride area and skills park will be put up there........I believe that will be a great place to practice. Until then, Ussery is an excellent place to learn how to do doubles......they have lots of nice small ones. The Eagle skate park off of Horseshoe Bend (where the velodrome will eventually be) also has some nice doubles to practice on......a bit larger than the lower Ussery jumps. To learn to ride skinnys, just start hopping on curbs and riding them as far as you can.....that's a great way to get your skinny skills going. Not a lot of drop opportunities but there is a relatively small one at Ussery.

    Again, my original post was just to ask folks to walk around the features on the trail that they can't do, as opposed to attempting to ride around them with their brakes on, trashing the landers. My intent was not to scare people away from the trail. You should come up and check it out......I think you will be impressed......there will not be anyone waiting in the wings to try to take you out.....I think you'll find us a friendly bunch. All we ask is when you get to a feature that you don't feel comfortable riding, pick your bike up and walk her around. Thanks much.

  38. #38
    let freedom ring!
    Reputation: Get Lost's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    154

    understood...

    small stunts next to big stunts= erosion.
    and only one line approved at this time.

    I actually did that "small drop" at Ussery for the first time yesterday, and it looked huge to me.

    You guys are doing a great job up at Bogus, I have been following the progress and trying to help out the as much as I can right now with my schedule. I have given Ian a couple of contact numbers for lumber and hope that has worked out. Now let me post this question for everyone. These are the places I know of right now to build my skill level and confidence.

    Ussery, Willow Lane, Rock Island, And the Motor cycle parking area at the top of Hulls where they unload the bikes. Are their any other places around the area a guy could learn to drop off of stuff to build confidence?

    I met a guy at Willow Lane and he had never heard of Ussery or Rock Island and was asking about other stuff to help progress also. Anyone else out there know of places even around town to jump off of or just build skills. I am trying to gather some materials to make some skinnys in my backyard rignt know. The hard part of that is convincing my wife it improves the landscape

    Anyways thanks for your response.
    My God! How little do my countrymen know what precious blessings they are in possession of, and which no other people on earth enjoy! ~Thomas Jefferson

  39. #39
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Mitrovarr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    38
    Quote Originally Posted by Crash_Burn
    It's a chicken and egg scenario - unfortunately not many of the LBS's stock freeride bikes. In reality if you want more people to join in you'll have to build trails that support the current bikes in the Boise market.
    I recently did a hell of a lot of checking out bike stores around the Boise area (for a xc bike, since that's my riding style and budgetary range) and I actually remember seeing a few freeride bikes. In particular, I had a friend I brought along to help me pick drool a little over a Jamis Diablo at Meridian Cycles. He sounds like he might really be considering taking it up.

    Do you know if there's anywhere in the general Boise area to rent a freeride bike in order for him to see if he might like it? Oh, and do you know if it's a safe (well, relatively) thing to try for someone who doesn't have a whole lot of mountain biking experience? Or is it something you should only attempt if you have years of xc/am/bmx riding and fair skills already?

  40. #40
    Hoops - Big and Small
    Reputation: Crash_Burn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    1,083

    Diablo for Freeriding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mitrovarr
    Do you know if there's anywhere in the general Boise area to rent a freeride bike in order for him to see if he might like it? Oh, and do you know if it's a safe (well, relatively) thing to try for someone who doesn't have a whole lot of mountain biking experience? Or is it something you should only attempt if you have years of xc/am/bmx riding and fair skills already?
    Safe? I would say no - If your young you'll heal quickly and you can get back on the sled and do it all over again.

    For a dealer to rent a Freeride bike it takes a big investment of business resource, ie the bike gets beat to hell. Your enjoyment of the rig is dependent on the work of an excellent wrench monkey to the bike in tip top shape.

    So I wouldn't expect much rental offerings - Demo tours are you best bet. Every so often we get a Big Box bike Co that swings through town so local yahoo's can trash there stuff.

    Back to the Diablo - I'm not sure this would make a great FR rig, the chainstays are a bit on the long side and the bb height seems low to me. Post on the DH forum and you may get some more indepth opinions.

    Nice lookin ride
    Attached Images Attached Images

  41. #41
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    396
    Quote Originally Posted by Planker
    I think the important thing to remember here is we live in an area with exactly 1 freeride trail that is less than a mile long. It happens to be located in an area with thousands of miles of dirt sidewalks and absolutely no opportunity for someone to improve their technical riding skills.
    you guys ever get up higher into the mtns? i've only moved up here recently from easter nevada, and i haven't gotten out too much on the mtn bike yet, but i've been dirtbiking the sawtooths and idaho city area for 5+ years now. there seems to me to be an approximately infinite quantity of sweet trails up there at every level of technicality. admittedly, none of the faddish artificial stunt stuff, if that's your passion, but i like natural stunts more anyway. call me a granola-eating nature-lover, lol.
    mark weaver
    kuna, id

  42. #42
    TRAIL KUBUKI CORNDOGGER
    Reputation: TwistedCrank's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    2,980
    Quote Originally Posted by velosapiens
    you guys ever get up higher into the mtns?
    Naw. There's not that much up there really. Just some gravel roads really. Move along now citizens. Nothing to see here.
    Nobody cares what kind of bike you ride.

  43. #43

    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    20

    All trails are not meant to be ridden by all

    Seriously folks, think about Bogus in the winter. There are your green, blue and black diamon runs. Now, if you are comfortably only skiing the green runs are you going to demand that the black diamond runs be turned into green runs so you can ski them. I think not. Same thing applies here.

  44. #44
    sp2
    sp2 is offline

    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    9

    See it come, see it go

    I would have to agree and disagree, probably should have waited to see their website before posting anything. Double, double, berm, double, drop or whatever it was sounds like a bunny trail to me. Won’t be driving up for this one but I guess they weren’t recruiting anyways. Jumping and dropping in are fairly easy anyways, for most it’s getting over the fear of eating dirt. It’s taken me two weeks to get Willow Ln down and another week I should have Ussery and Eagle knocked out. There was some motocross kid who was close to clearing everything his 3rd time out without a helmet, pure stupidity. I probably fit in the same category by not wearing a full face but in another week I’ll be done with it and off to bigger and better things. Climbing is my next goal and I have a feeling it will take a little longer to surpass, any suggestions? Let me guess……..”You’re not recruiting”, that has to be the dumbest comment I’ve heard in a long long time. And to the person that e-mailed me about checking out the bogus trial thanks for the insight but learning tricks, skills or whatever you want to call it is all about having fun. Sure freeride is a fad but some of us can enjoy it while it’s around. It’s just too bad we don’t have an option besides Tamarack and that sounds about the same as Bogus. You need a bigger bag of tricks a double, berm, drop and skinnies is ridiculous. You should watch RAD and try to incorporate a big soup bowl or whatever it was into your track that would definitely be worth the drive. Maybe next year when I have the hard guy conquered and can ride up you’ll be recruiting. This is what your missing.

    cre•a•tiv•i•ty ˌkri eɪˈtɪv ɪ ti, ˌkri ə- - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kree-ey-tiv-i-tee, kree-uh-] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
    –noun
    1. the state or quality of being creative.
    2. the ability to transcend traditional ideas, rules, patterns, relationships, or the like, and to create meaningful new ideas, forms, methods, interpretations, etc.; originality, progressiveness, or imagination: the need for creativity in modern industry; creativity in the performing arts.
    3. the process by which one utilizes creative ability: Extensive reading stimulated his creativity.

  45. #45

    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    2

    Free at last! Free at last! God all might we have free ride trails at last!

    I would also like to add that noone that rides this trail up at bogus just started riding. I can not speak for everyone, but I started out on a 3" travel bike kicking up soil. I had a good brother-in-law and we pushed each other to go bigger and bigger all the time. This is a decision that we made and our riding styles and bikes have gotten alot bigger throughout the years. So my advice is start crawling before you go skydiving. One thing that has never changed with us transfering form x-country riders to freeriders is our respect for other riders and the trails. ALL of them. All those who think that this trail should also accomidate the less skilled should step back and thank heaven that we dont come on your trail and run you over coming down! Please just remeber this qoute from a mountain bike magazine that I cut out when I very first started riding. "It's not skill, not the best gear, not shaven legs, not a racers attitude. Its a love of life, a love of our planet, and most importantly, the participation, in the comradeship with those who are out there riding with us, for the very same reasons we are." - Jon Camp

  46. #46

    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    156

    Support the freeriders

    Write a check to SWIMBA and put Freeride in the description. The money will be set aside for freeride trail construction. Ian will decide what this money is spent on. If they have some money they can build better structures.

    This is also a tax deduction. I gave $100 and will never ride the trails. It is time for the people riding these structures to support the people building them.

    Good job getting this started Ian.

Members who have read this thread: 0

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

THE SITE

ABOUT MTBR

VISIT US AT

© Copyright 2020 VerticalScope Inc. All rights reserved.