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  1. #1
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    Caution...

    The waterbars on the connector trail between Crestline and the Mil Reserve has been worked on and is a bit taller, steeper and a little sandier than normal. We found this out Thursday night during a night ride (not the best way to learn how to do a nose wheelie)....

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    Okay, here is a rant. I DO appreciate the effort that anyone does to build and maintain trails, but take my word for it, this is not bettering that trail. The machine used to do the work destroyed alot of plant life and widened the tread. The waterbars on this and other foothills trails are large enough to divert a creek but the ruts still develop. Therefore increasing the heigth of said waterbars does nothing but indanger the riders. I know three people that were badly hurt last year alone by smashing unexpectedly into these monoliths. 3!!! 2 collarbones and a rib. Two of these riders were very experienced riders, riding at a reasonable speed. One of them was on a sinlgespeed going at most 15mph.The third was a woman riding very controlled and with care behind the CB. After that accident, over a year ago, she never ridden a trail again. Take that IMBA.
    I agree that ruts are a danger to riders as well and erosion must be controlled, but go look at this trail and tell me that the efforts are working. They are not. There are various other ways to control erosion and ruts. How about matting, as was used on Bob's, or wooden "steps", or those rubber diverters that lay down when you roll over them? Too expensive? Then sell that two track sidewalk building monster to pay for them. I have used a pulaski to help maintain Boise trails, and build trails elsewhere. It may be slower, but works just fine.
    Again I really thank the people that put the effort into this. I know that your heart is in the right place. But moving a person with a broken neck still paralizes them, no matter what the intentions.

  3. #3
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    the waterbars that the kabota make are not IMBA standard waterbars.

    they recommend rolling grade dips....not 3 foot jumps...

    futher...speedy is dead on. the size of these "speed bumps" are way to big for the amount of rain that boise gets. the ruts that form are a product of the soil type...period...you can dam up the trails with 10' water bars...and the ruts will still form.

    speedy..add another rider (albeit a terrible one) to your list of boise water bar casualties. i've got a few scars and a tacoed crossmax xl from them.

    flip-thanks for the heads up. why no signs?

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by garnetspur
    flip-thanks for the heads up. why no signs?
    i had a similar experience on corrals a couple of springs ago. i did provide R2R some feedback on the waterbars and signage last year. try sending in your suggestions to (this is from the R2R site):
    [email protected] or 514-3756

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    On a trail maintence evening on the trail by the dump, (can't remember the name) two of us confronted the R2R liason about this issue, and although the liason was very nice and hardworking, it was like we were trying to ask a cat about Picasso. He had no explanations and just seemed to be purring in his head as we talked to him.

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    The giant guy who works the trails for Boise Parks & Rec the night we did mtce on Hulls Gulch about 6 mos back, on the other hand, really seemed to know his stuff, and taught us how to build intelligent water bars, taking into consideration the many factors that come into play. And it was all done with Pulaskis and those big commercial hoe/rake combo tools, not that disgusting Kubota.

    CDB
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    So would people be willing to do trail maintenance? Would anyone be into that? And if you were, how often would you be willing to do it (trail work I mean)?
    ...building wherever they'll let me...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Visicypher
    So would people be willing to do trail maintenance? Would anyone be into that? And if you were, how often would you be willing to do it (trail work I mean)?
    Yes I would and have although not extensively like some others have. The last trail maintenance work I did was earlier this spring when a couple of us from here did some work on Lower Hulls. That was arranged through Chris Cook.

    Believe me, I'd love to do more trail maintenance and building, but like many others, I'm pulled in other directions throughout the week cuz of work and other committments. It doesn't help that I live clear out in the 2C either . My preferred days to try to help are weekday evenings for a couple of hours. It helps to know at least a week or two in advance just in case a would-be volunteer needs to juggle their schedule around.

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    that is one volunteer...
    ...building wherever they'll let me...

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    Not here to ***** just state the facts - the man hours spent to repile the sand was a complete waste of resource. It looks like that section of trail needs a reroute. The sand is so deep you could hide in it and jump out and scare the hell out of a HIKER!

    That said the trail is a blast to bomb down a get some quality air, also climbing up it will spank you like you know you liked to be spanked baby.

    Volunteer? I can bring my nicely worn paddle for a little pleasure - Were would you like it to hurt?

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    Nah Crash, I'll have you busy enough in the next couple months. (that sounds so wrong). You and Twisted have already committed enough. You know me though. I figure if you want it a certain way, then you should do the work. The upside to users doing the work is obvious for the user, and the upside to R2R is that it alleviates resource usage. Just something to ponder.

    Paddling...don't promise what you might not want to deliver!!! Haha. And remember. A good spanking is...well...always good. I like to be the spanker...not the spankee, though.

    I like getting the boost off the water bars on the way up!!! Always fun.
    ...building wherever they'll let me...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Visicypher
    So would people be willing to do trail maintenance? Would anyone be into that? And if you were, how often would you be willing to do it (trail work I mean)?
    Very willing. How often? Would depend on my work schedule.

    You might have to show me a thing or two about trail maintenance around here. When I've done trail maintenance, piling thick layers of dust on top of the water bars wasn't part of it (i.e., the Connector).

    I've been digging dirt for an entire summer. Why stop now?

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    New question here.

    Quote Originally Posted by sweetflowersister
    I've been digging dirt for an entire summer. Why stop now?
    What....you building a pump track too????

    -------

    Question for the folks affiliated with SWIMBA....

    This was a topic of discussion with me and my co-volunteer at the HPSF and we really didn't know the answer....

    What is the volunteer rate of SWIMBA members? I realize SWIMBA has several hundred members, but how many volunteer?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BelaySlave
    What....you building a pump track too????
    Yeah, I had my girls over to dig up my backyard, but all we got accomplished was just pushing rock and dirt into a giant mess.

    Who's organizing this trail maintenance then?
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    I have, my workplace maintains a trail, and I will, but I cannot agree to the kind of "maintenance" that I have been directed to do, at times, such as building speed bumps at the exit of blind turns or using dangerous boulders to create IMBA approved choke points.
    Visicypher, I realize that I bring a lot of heat to this issue, but one of the primary reasons I left the beautiful place I lived for 11 years was due to the trail politics that went on in my last 2 years there. The stupid and dangerous behavior of well intended Forest Service trail workers (and their back-stabbing personal attacks, such as approaching the owner of the shop I worked at about newspaper articles I wrote) left me actually with the sick feeling of bile rising in my throat every time I rode a "freshly maintained" trail.
    That being said, chose a night, Mon Tues Thurs or Fri and I'll be there every week. I would like to see xc trails at the same level of quality that Ivan is creating at BB.

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    I have not personally seen these monolithic waterbars in person, but I think you guys are making somewhat of a big deal about these things.

    I mean it's not like you're riding down the trail and it jumps in front of you so it can steal your lunch money...

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    Your post made me laugh Trevor!!! Thanks, I needed that.

    I am glad people want to do maintenance.
    ...building wherever they'll let me...

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    Quote Originally Posted by DelTaco
    I have not personally seen these monolithic waterbars in person, but I think you guys are making somewhat of a big deal about these things.

    I mean it's not like you're riding down the trail and it jumps in front of you so it can steal your lunch money...
    I guess I want xc trails that are as smart as they can be. Trails should be designed with flow, whever they be xc, fr, or dh. It is not that I am complaining about obstacles in the trail. If I need to ride a stunt in a trail, I'll ride it, and dig the hell out of it. But these are not natural and they are not designed to be ridden. In my opinion they are designed to slow me down. They sure ain't designed to improve the trail. Not that you implied this , but I would NEVER propose the dumbing down of a trail. If anyone can ride a trail then I want the bar to stay at that level. But this is just more complicated than that. To me it is just like tearing out Big Wood. It is a group of non-riders deciding how the trails should be.
    Funny, I can see you flying over these things and not even noticing them. It does make my complaint seem a bit silly.
    I will again point out that the work done on this trail was not trail improvement. The ruts were not repaired, the wide sections were not narrowed, oh Jeez, here I go again...

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    Update:
    After a small amount of rain, a bit of usage to settle the sand,and actually riding the bumps during the day, I would have to say that the built up waterbars are now actually fun to launch from (if the coast is clear of course). And this is from someone that is not generally "airworthy"..

  20. #20
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    Did you SS up it? Takes some effort hunting for the hard spots to plant the rear wheel to tork on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crash_Burn
    Did you SS up it? Takes some effort hunting for the hard spots to plant the rear wheel to tork on.
    i climbed up it the day after flip gave the head's up on the loose nature of the bumps...so, when i hit them on the way up...i spun out and got pissed...but then my wife passed me and hammered her way up the hill she has really improved

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crash_Burn
    Did you SS up it? Takes some effort hunting for the hard spots to plant the rear wheel to tork on.
    CB - I've climbed it 2x on the SS since the new 'bars were built. No traction problems to speak of. (I've also been down it 2 - 3 times since the bars were built and had no issues on the DH either.)

    R2R does this Kubota-waterbar-reconstruction project every year on some trail or another and every year somebody b!tches about it. Remember the Kubota-ing of Sidewinder a couple of years back? Wailing and gnashing of teeth followed, but the sections that used to be rut-city seem to be just fine these days. Jesus folks, if you think the newly built water bars on the MR connector are bad, you clearly haven't ridden down Devils Slide recently.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Earthpig
    Jesus folks, if you think the newly built water bars on the MR connector are bad, you clearly haven't ridden down Devils Slide recently.
    Excellent point!!!
    Each bicycle owned exponentially increases the probability that none is working correctly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Earthpig

    R2R does this Kubota-waterbar-reconstruction project every year on some trail or another and every year somebody b!tches about it.
    I wonder why.

    Thursday, I'll go snap some photos. Maybe that will help put this into perspective.
    I realize that the person driving the Kubota was trying very hard to do the right thing, and trail maintenence is a hard thing to get people to do, but this job could have been done soooo much better,. And as much fun as SW is, it is rutted (not terribly but there has been only 1 rainy day in months), and the braking bumps before the speedbreakers are horrible.
    I'm sorry that my introduction to this board is so fiery. I really just dig riding my bike. I hope that my passion for great flowing trails comes across. I mean, look at Bob's. Even though I will say that it has been dumbed-down some, the style of maintence on this trail has been great. The waterbars are small, breaking bumps are few and so are ruts. Why? Because it must be maintained by hand. The way all good singletrack is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SpeedyGonzalas
    I wonder why.

    Thursday, I'll go snap some photos. Maybe that will help put this into perspective.
    I realize that the person driving the Kubota was trying very hard to do the right thing, and trail maintenence is a hard thing to get people to do, but this job could have been done soooo much better,. And as much fun as SW is, it is rutted (not terribly but there has been only 1 rainy day in months), and the braking bumps before the speedbreakers are horrible.
    I'm sorry that my introduction to this board is so fiery. I really just dig riding my bike. I hope that my passion for great flowing trails comes across. I mean, look at Bob's. Even though I will say that it has been dumbed-down some, the style of maintence on this trail has been great. The waterbars are small, breaking bumps are few and so are ruts. Why? Because it must be maintained by hand. The way all good singletrack is.
    SG- it was nice meeting you the other night. IMHO the main reason singletrack trails become wider and wider is because of people that don't yield to the uphill rider. Most riders just "cut through the grass" slowly widening the trail. The best example of this is Bucks and on the the slalom like part of Sidewinder When we're not on a fireroad, we always yield to the uphill rider by leaning the bike over to give the other enough room and stepping off to the side. Unfortunately, a good number of riders out there feel that the 2 seconds yielding will cost them is too much...

  26. #26
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    I rode it up n down tonight and didn't think it was bad at all.
    Nobody cares what kind of bike you ride.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SpeedyGonzalas
    I guess I want xc trails that are as smart as they can be. Trails should be designed with flow, whever they be xc, fr, or dh. It is not that I am complaining about obstacles in the trail. If I need to ride a stunt in a trail, I'll ride it, and dig the hell out of it. But these are not natural and they are not designed to be ridden. In my opinion they are designed to slow me down. They sure ain't designed to improve the trail. Not that you implied this , but I would NEVER propose the dumbing down of a trail. If anyone can ride a trail then I want the bar to stay at that level. But this is just more complicated than that. To me it is just like tearing out Big Wood. It is a group of non-riders deciding how the trails should be.
    Funny, I can see you flying over these things and not even noticing them. It does make my complaint seem a bit silly.
    I will again point out that the work done on this trail was not trail improvement. The ruts were not repaired, the wide sections were not narrowed, oh Jeez, here I go again...
    I understand, but I have NEVER seen a waterbar that I think would pose even a slight threat to someone riding within their ability...

    I don't like non-riders having anything to do with the maintenance of our trails either. I just found it comical how everyone seems to think that waterbars pose a considerable threat to rider safety on the trail. Personally, I'd be more worried about mexican ninjas launching shoulder fired missles at me than a bump in the trail...

    Then again, I haven't seen these "behemoths", so I could be wrong...

    Trevor
    Last edited by DelTaco; 09-26-2006 at 08:46 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by flipnidaho
    IMHO the main reason singletrack trails become wider and wider is because of people that don't yield to the uphill rider. Most riders just "cut through the grass" slowly widening the trail. The best example of this is Bucks and on the the slalom like part of Sidewinder When we're not on a fireroad, we always yield to the uphill rider by leaning the bike over to give the other enough room and stepping off to the side. Unfortunately, a good number of riders out there feel that the 2 seconds yielding will cost them is too much...
    Oh, I thought proper trail etiquette was to blow past the uphill rider doing 30mph+, not forgetting to go off the trail and skid to make sure you widen the trail as much as possible... I guess I learned from the wrong person...

    We still get extra points for kicking up dirt into uphill riders, Right?

    Trevor

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    Quote Originally Posted by DelTaco
    I understand, but I have NEVER seen a waterbar that I think would pose even a slight threat to someone riding within their ability...

    I don't like non-riders having anything to do with the maintenance of our trails either. I just found it comical how everyone seems to think that waterbars pose a considerable threat to rider safety on the trail. Personally, I'd be more worried about mexican ninjas launching shoulder fired missles than a bump in the trail...

    Then again, I haven't seen these "behemoths", so I could be wrong...

    Trevor
    It's not the size of the waterbars, it's the change...
    Let me put it in perspective for you, imagine pre-riding a course every day until you got all the jumps and gaps dialed, now imagine someone changing the 30 foot gap into a 40 foot gap. It can screw you up pretty quick...
    I'm not sure about the R2R crew but the D. Gordon rides a good bit... He also did a LOT of work on Ketchum trails and those are some of the best flowy singletracks on earth... If anyone has feedback on how trails are built, definitely fly him an email with your suggestions...

  30. #30
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    Yes, you get extra points for that. You also get extra points (50 to be exact) for the following:

    Kicking up a rock that hits their frame as you go by;
    Bunny-hopping and crossing it up so that your rear wheel hit 'em;
    Snot-rocket attacks;
    Grabbing their waterbottle as you go by;
    Riding over their foot;
    Crop dusting 'em;
    ...building wherever they'll let me...

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    I think that we consider "not bad" to be too much like it always is. ( If that makes sense) How about we consider how good it could be. And Flipinidaho, that is a good point and well considered. I think that those spots should be repaired, and made to be singletrack again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SpeedyGonzalas
    I think that we consider "not bad" to be too much like it always is. ( If that makes sense) How about we consider how good it could be. And Flipinidaho, that is a good point and well considered. I think that those spots should be repaired, and made to be singletrack again.
    it makes me miss the tight singletrack in the trees out East... There is almost no way to widen those trails as most trees are already about 24" apart... It forces people to be "nice"...

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    Quote Originally Posted by flipnidaho
    it makes me miss the tight singletrack in the trees out East... There is almost no way to widen those trails as most trees are already about 24" apart... It forces people to be "nice"...
    Or it forces them to do this:


  34. #34
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    Are you willing to help with work of Daggett Creek/Gardner Peak?
    ...building wherever they'll let me...

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    I can take you up to Gardner Peak/Daggett Ck during the weekday to help work, if you cannot the 10/22 work day. I hope you are still willing to work?!?
    ...building wherever they'll let me...

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    If you really want, R2R has agreed to walk a section of trail they have recently maintained with anyone who wants to in order to explain the work done, and answer questions. Everyone just has to agree to a date and time.
    ...building wherever they'll let me...

  37. #37
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    I see an emerging dating service starting up for you single folks. Jump on it! Long romantic walks in the foothills at sunset with some dood or doodette from R2R?? There you go...

    CDB
    May your trails be narrow, crooked, lonesome and dangerous, leading to the most outrageous adventures. Paladin

  38. #38
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    Dating service...that is funny....

    CBro - No takers so far for the "date". As for real dating....somehow, taking a gal on first date up 8th, across the Ridge, down Trail #2 & Orchard Gulch to RC and 3 Bears doesn't appeal to 99% of the gals I meet, especially if we hope to finish the ride in under 3 hours!!!
    ...building wherever they'll let me...

  39. #39

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    I would be into working or walking a trail w/r2r or whoever any night but monday or weds. next week. I get off at 6, or Next weekend I could commit 1 day. Normally evenings are best for me.

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    BTW, thanks Visi for making the contact w/ r2r. I will do anything I can to help this issue, one of the few that I feel like I can help these days.

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    Add a broken scapula to the waterbar vs. cyclist list. I was reminded of another friend that went down on 3 bears last section of waterbars a year ago. This makes 2 experienced female riders that have all but given up on mtb due to this.

  42. #42
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    Speedy - I am sorry to hear that. I hope they were riding with a group that took care of them.
    ...building wherever they'll let me...

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    Speedy - You are welcome. Please know that I will need get a group together (at least 5)so that I effectively use the R2R time in explaining why things were done the way they were. Hopefully, more people chime in so we can get this done.

    As for trail work up at Daggett Ck, are you in for that? Dmeek & I would like some help as it is a huge project. I have a tentative date of 10/22, but we can start sooner if you are into it. PM me if you are still interested.

    Lastly, I'd like to think you, SFS, and Belay for offering to help.
    ...building wherever they'll let me...

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Visicypher
    Lastly, I'd like to think you, SFS, and Belay for offering to help.
    You can think me too. I'll sign up for Dagget Creek but I want to wear my old trail crew hardhat, carry a pulaski and pack my jaw with Levi Garrett - just like in my youth.
    Nobody cares what kind of bike you ride.

  45. #45
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    TC - I am already planning for Humboldt. Are you going in 2007? How was Willamette?

    Daggett should be a welcome addition to the pain days for you, GreenGoat, and myself.
    ...building wherever they'll let me...

  46. #46

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    Sure, I'm in. Where's Daggett ck? I won't be able to commit to many wkend days, say 1 a month, but when spring rolls around I would be into doing 1 evening every week.

  47. #47
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    Daggett is west of Hard Guy on the Ridge Road. It drops down towards the Clear Creek Road. We can work on it next week, if you are still available.
    ...building wherever they'll let me...

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