Attn: Chris Cook re: Yahoo education- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Attn: Chris Cook re: Yahoo education

    Hi Chris,

    First off, I am guilty of never having attended a SWIMBA meeting. There is however an issue that I believe needs some immediate attention and now is the time to do it. I would make sure that I have time to help with any sort of effort. Rider Education! I know you have been putting out pamphlets / attaching them to new bike sales, etc. However, I think trail ettiquette cannot be overempasized, especially now with the trails packed with eager mtbers and families out hiking. Our singletrack has turned to doubletrack-width hiways and are still expanding. And most importantly I'll bet "we" as mountain bikers are pissing off a lot of hikers. Heck, I'm pissed as hell at speeding downhillers, I can only imagine what those out there with the kids and dogs must think. My suggestion: two information tables set up on whatever weekends are possible through this early spring period at the main trailheads: the lower 8th St. parking lot and the Bogus Basin Rd Corrals trailhead. Main issues: trail rights-of-way, speeding around blind corners, proper means of passing. Perhaps some of the local bike shops could pitch in with logo'd water bottles with some sort of etiquette logo to further attract folks. Hikers would see that the mtb community is actively trying to educate our own while also making mtbers better aware of what is at risk. Just my two cents.

    Adam

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    Chris

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamW
    Hi Chris,

    First off, I am guilty of never having attended a SWIMBA meeting. There is however an issue that I believe needs some immediate attention and now is the time to do it. I would make sure that I have time to help with any sort of effort. Rider Education! I know you have been putting out pamphlets / attaching them to new bike sales, etc. However, I think trail ettiquette cannot be overempasized, especially now with the trails packed with eager mtbers and families out hiking. Our singletrack has turned to doubletrack-width hiways and are still expanding. And most importantly I'll bet "we" as mountain bikers are pissing off a lot of hikers. Heck, I'm pissed as hell at speeding downhillers, I can only imagine what those out there with the kids and dogs must think. My suggestion: two information tables set up on whatever weekends are possible through this early spring period at the main trailheads: the lower 8th St. parking lot and the Bogus Basin Rd Corrals trailhead. Main issues: trail rights-of-way, speeding around blind corners, proper means of passing. Perhaps some of the local bike shops could pitch in with logo'd water bottles with some sort of etiquette logo to further attract folks. Hikers would see that the mtb community is actively trying to educate our own while also making mtbers better aware of what is at risk. Just my two cents.

    Adam
    I think we're gonna be riding up at Stack and Eside a lot more....

  3. #3
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    Sounds like a good idea...

    Actually the land managers are getting few if any calls about mountain bikers going too fast, but are mostly getting calls about dog poop and off leash dogs.

    But it never hurts to be proactive, now the real question is who can man these booths on weekends? If you would be willing to recruit some volenteers, I can get the permission needed, tables, and have the materials available. A wednesday evening would also not be a bad time to have a booth.

    Chris
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  4. #4
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    I've been out a decent # of times over the past couple of weeks both MTB'ing and hiking and here are my gripes....

    Dog crap
    Dogs off leash
    Downhill rider not yielding to uphill users
    Signalling when passing
    Users unaware that there are other people on the trail

    Maybe danK can run something in Thrive or the Rec section??

    Nick

    -------

    And FWIW....the past couple of clinics we've had at the store, each presenter did make mention of trail etiquette.

  5. #5
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    Add to that:

    Downhill riders riding off trail in an effort to yield to uphill riders. (K.I.S.S.)

    I can't count how many times a rider sitting at the top of the climb will start downhill while I am riding uphill and then ride through the grass to get around me (or not yield at all) when they could wait for 10 seconds for me to summit before they begin.


    By the way, do you know how fun it is to hold your ground when a downhiller comes toward you and then they crash trying to get around you at the last second because they assumed you would yeild?
    "Every time I see an adult on a bicycle, I no longer despair for the future of the human race." - H.G. Wells

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    ... never did like the chicken game. Scares the crap out of me.

  7. #7
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    Unfortunately this is this time of year that the thundering herds come out - and with them are a few jerks.

    If 1 out of 100 riders is an uneducated rider (i.e., idiot) and you see 100 riders while out on the trail (not unusual of a busy day sometimes), then one of them is going to be the idiot who's going to something dangerous, stupid, uncourtious, disrespectful, whatever. Unfortunately those are the guys who can ruin a good ride and give the rest of us a bad rep.
    Last edited by TwistedCrank; 04-11-2005 at 07:10 PM.
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  8. #8
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    Fyi- R2r

    Is putting together a Volunteer Trail Ranger system in the next few weeks. There will be about 6 trail rangers who's primary function is education NOT enforcement. I think 4 of the 6 rangers are mountainbikers. Some of the 4 mountainbikers are also runners and dog owners. The balance are equestrians or hikers. With the user community in the Foothills growing, I think this is a great step in trying to reduce user conflict and educate new users on proper etiquette...

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    Good topic to bring up. I'm new here but have been an observer for quite some time. I've wanted to bring this topic up several times myself, but wanted to defer to the regulars and so I'll add my $.02 now.

    From my own experience this spring, I agree that it is getting chaotic out there on the busy days. I split my time between mountain biking and running with my dogs (picking up their poop, and usually someopne else's while I'm at it), and each time I go out, I invariably have an experience with a mountain biker who thinks he (yes he - this never happens with women) has the right of way no matter what. The biggest problem is not yeilding to uphill users, as mentioned by a previous post. Heading off trail, into the grass, widening the singletrack, or in some cases double track, is inexcusable, in my opinion. The lack of courtesy is appauling. And what's more, *most* of the people I see doing this are riding with their team jersey's on! How stupid is that?

    Chris, I find it irrelevant that land managers are not getting complaints about poor trail ettiquette of mountain bikers. I'm sorry, but just because they aren't hearing about it doesn't mean it isn't happening. Look at the width of the trails, especially sections of Sidewinder which gets very little hiking use as compared to mountain bikes - this is not happening because there's too many dogs and hikers out there. It is us and we must do something about it.

    I'd happily volunteer to sit at a table. Its pretty obvious that trying to hold interventions, either by saying something or holding ground while these folks head off trail to avoid you, is just going to get the blood pressure up - and I'm usually heading out there to relax after a long day at work...

    matt

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by boisematt
    Good topic to bring up. I'm new here but have been an observer for quite some time. I've wanted to bring this topic up several times myself, but wanted to defer to the regulars and so I'll add my $.02 now.

    From my own experience this spring, I agree that it is getting chaotic out there on the busy days. I split my time between mountain biking and running with my dogs (picking up their poop, and usually someopne else's while I'm at it), and each time I go out, I invariably have an experience with a mountain biker who thinks he (yes he - this never happens with women) has the right of way no matter what. The biggest problem is not yeilding to uphill users, as mentioned by a previous post. Heading off trail, into the grass, widening the singletrack, or in some cases double track, is inexcusable, in my opinion. The lack of courtesy is appauling. And what's more, *most* of the people I see doing this are riding with their team jersey's on! How stupid is that?

    Chris, I find it irrelevant that land managers are not getting complaints about poor trail ettiquette of mountain bikers. I'm sorry, but just because they aren't hearing about it doesn't mean it isn't happening. Look at the width of the trails, especially sections of Sidewinder which gets very little hiking use as compared to mountain bikes - this is not happening because there's too many dogs and hikers out there. It is us and we must do something about it.

    I'd happily volunteer to sit at a table. Its pretty obvious that trying to hold interventions, either by saying something or holding ground while these folks head off trail to avoid you, is just going to get the blood pressure up - and I'm usually heading out there to relax after a long day at work...

    matt

    I"m hoping the OP would be willing to sit at a table and put his $$ where his mouth is.

    formica

  11. #11
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    possible date...

    Is April 23rd, I will find out in a day or two if we get permission.

    SWIMBA is going to do some group rides on that day also so I will need some volenteers to man the booth.

    Chris
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  12. #12
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    I can probably give you three or four hours

    on the 23rd if you get approval.

    TF

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by smilycook
    Is April 23rd, I will find out in a day or two if we get permission.
    I'll be in Vega$ that weekend (I need to win some big $ for a Turner 5 Spot!!!). WOOHOO!!!! BTW...our sister store in Henderson is having a demo day on the 24th at www.BootlegCanyon.org and I'm gonna try to make that. I hope I make it back into Vega$ in one piece!


    Anyhoo...if other dates become available later this spring...I'd like to help out.

    HOWEVER....

    My only real concern is that if your average Joe sees a SWIMBA booth, and then realizes it's a MTB organization, they may either ignore the information being presented cuz they feel it may not apply to 'em (which is definately applicable to all Foothills users) or feel put off by a bunch of MTB'ers trying to "takeover" the Foothills. IMNSHO...I just think a Ridge to Rivers booth would be more appropriate.

    Well however it's done...I do hope it's positively received by all Foothills users. Hopefully danK and others can get the word out on what the mission of this booth is and interest is generated.

    And FWIW...I think a booth may need to be set up in the parking lot off of Military Reserve Road across from the cemetary.

    Nick

  14. #14
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    New question here.

    What exactly is the rule for yielding to an uphill user?

    If I'm coming down Lower Hulls and I see a hiker or biker coming up. I'll come to a complete stop and give that person as much room as possible.

    But if I'm coming down Kestrel and someone else is coming up...if it's wide enough...I'll slow down and give that person as much room as possible, but I won't come to a complete stop. If there are kids or dogs involved, then I'll stop.

    Last summer I rode with a gal that was on a local team that shall remain nameless and she was telling me that there was an unwritten rule that if the downhill rider had enough room to not expect them to stop since they earned the climb up to the top.

    Nick

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    Quote Originally Posted by BelaySlave
    What exactly is the rule for yielding to an uphill user?

    Last summer I rode with a gal that was on a local team that shall remain nameless and she was telling me that there was an unwritten rule that if the downhill rider had enough room to not expect them to stop since they earned the climb up to the top.

    Nick
    This is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about that gets me so annoyed. The BS about earning it just doesn't cut it. If I'm coming up the trail, I *am* earning my right of way to the trail - it doesn't go both ways. I presume that this attitude amoung local racers and hot shots is fairly common since it seems that it is the more intense riders who are the most likely to pull stuff like this. I don't think this is as much of a problem with the uneducated masses - at least from my perception - rather one of the seemingly "entitled" minority who doesn't feel the need to follow common courtesy, stop, and let the uphil rider pass.

    matt

  16. #16
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    Attitudes can be a problem. When yielding to an uphiller,

    If there is room for two bikes, I slow down and pull to the outside of the trail. If there is only room for one rider, I stop and move completely off the trail.

    In fact, sometimes, I stop, fall over, then move completely off the trail.

    I have to agree that, whenever I've been blasted off a trail, it didn't seem to be by beginners. Last summer, I got passed on a singletrack section at Red Tail (the steep, off-camber part) without even an "on your left". The same rider then proceeded to blast downhill (good rider, too) and almost run down a lady on foot and her two dogs. My friends and I stopped and tried to convince her that we don't all ride like that.

    Everybody likes to ride fast, but I don't understand why some jerks seem to think they are above proper trail etiquette.

    TF

  17. #17
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    In today's Local section of the Statesman on the backpage, Dr. Collins has a lil' sidebar about MTB'ers needing to slow down when coming downhill.

    Nick

  18. #18
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    I saw that

    Quote Originally Posted by BelaySlave
    In today's Local section of the Statesman on the backpage, Dr. Collins has a lil' sidebar about MTB'ers needing to slow down when coming downhill.

    Nick
    I though the tone was a little too negative and did not really provide any positive suggestions.

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  19. #19
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    We are on..

    For April 23rd from the morning till afternoon at camelsback or the bottom of hulls.

    So far we have Terry can anyone else put in a couple of hours. I am suppose to lead a ride at 10am for SWIMBA so I can setup and work an hour or so.

    Let me know what times you can volenteer.

    Chris
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  20. #20
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    I'm in. Not sure what hours on the 23rd will work for me until my wife's work schedule comes out, but even if I have to get a sitter I'll be available at some point. Similar for the SWIMBA meeting on the 20th -- if I don't have kid duty I'll be there.

    Adam

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    I can likely be there on the 23rd as well - would prefer a morning shift.

    To be most effective, I would suggest proactive meetings with local team captains as well and would be ahppy to contact a couple to discuss these types of concerns...

    matt

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    Quote Originally Posted by smilycook
    I though the tone was a little too negative and did not really provide any positive suggestions.

    Chris
    Here's the sidebar. Seems OK to me considering the main article was about head injuries. I'll say it right here and now as I've thought about this before - at times like this, I think Hull's should be an uphill-only mountain bike trail. Only problem is that Hulls isn't the only trail where this is a problem. I guess this means I'm a heretic...

    matt

    http://www.idahostatesman.com/apps/p...504120321/1059

    Bicyclists, Slow Down!

    As someone who often runs and bikes in the foothills, I want to have a word with some of the mountain bikers on trails: Slow down!
    My neighbor was just about clobbered by a bicyclist going too fast down Hulls Gulch Trail this week, and her son the week before had been hit by an out-of-control biker while he was running in Hulls Gulch.
    Folks, these are multiple-use trails. Hikers, other bicyclists, children, dogs and even sheep can be found on them now. If you want to ride your bike too fast and take risks, go do it some place designed for it.
    Slow down, enjoy the multiple-use trails, and save your speed-play for more appropriate areas where you can see and avoid other people and animals on the trail.

  23. #23
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    Signup Sheet

    Ok fill in the time you want, more than one person per slot would be prefered. I think if w at least aim to fill slots until 2:00pm we will hit most of the target audience.

    If we get enought to signup we can have two tables.


    Time Slots:

    9:00 am to 10:00am - Chris ([email protected])
    10:00 am to 11:00am
    11:00 am to 12:00am
    12:00 am to 1:00pm
    1:00pm to 2:00pm
    2:00pm to 3:00m
    3:00pm to 4:00pm
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  24. #24
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    I'll be happy to do 1000-1200. Just let me know where.

    If we get enought to signup we can have two tables.


    Time Slots:

    9:00 am to 10:00am - Chris ([email protected])
    10:00 am to 11:00am -- Terry ([email protected])
    11:00 am to 12:00am -- Terry ([email protected])
    12:00 am to 1:00pm
    1:00pm to 2:00pm
    2:00pm to 3:00m
    3:00pm to 4:00pm[/QUOTE]

  25. #25
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    Idea! Signs

    I don't disagree that setting up information booths would be helpful, but a lot of people won't stop at them, especially the ones that are causing the problems out there. They want to have no part in SWIMBA (if they have even heard of them). I may have suggested this long ago, but I don't remember now. Why don't we have simple signs placed occasionally on the trails with statements such as "Yeild the right-of-way to uphill riders" and "Keep our singletracks single : stay on the trail". The signs could be placed on frequently used (and abused) trails at various locations, not just at the trail head. They would need to face uphill also for the shuttlers who don't ride uphill. They signs could be sponsored by the same groups that sponsor the trail work and have their names on them. Just a suggestion.
    "Every time I see an adult on a bicycle, I no longer despair for the future of the human race." - H.G. Wells

  26. #26
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    I really like this idea....

    Quote Originally Posted by zebdi
    I don't disagree that setting up information booths would be helpful, but a lot of people won't stop at them, especially the ones that are causing the problems out there. They want to have no part in SWIMBA (if they have even heard of them). I may have suggested this long ago, but I don't remember now. Why don't we have simple signs placed occasionally on the trails with statements such as "Yeild the right-of-way to uphill riders" and "Keep our singletracks single : stay on the trail". The signs could be placed on frequently used (and abused) trails at various locations, not just at the trail head. They would need to face uphill also for the shuttlers who don't ride uphill. They signs could be sponsored by the same groups that sponsor the trail work and have their names on them. Just a suggestion.
    --------

    Hey Chris...can I post this info on the "Idaho Outdoors" Yahoo! Group?

    Nick

  27. #27
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    I agree - great idea. I'm a little luke warm on the table idea for the same reasons - I don't think we're going to target the people we need to target. The signs would be great as it would show the newer folks that when they get passed by the yahoos that it is NOT OK.

    I say post-away, Nick. The more people that are involved and know about this, the better. Ridge to Rivers, I assume, would have the final say on this...

    matt

  28. #28
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    Yes, good idea

    Quote Originally Posted by zebdi
    Why don't we have simple signs placed occasionally on the trails with statements such as "Yeild the right-of-way to uphill riders" and "Keep our singletracks single : stay on the trail". The signs could be placed on frequently used (and abused) trails at various locations, not just at the trail head.

    When I lived in Utah, most of the trails had a sign like this at the trailhead. Sometimes the 'runner' would instead be a horse and rider, but for most of the time in the Boise foothills this is probably a better image.

    It is a good way to educate the ignorant on trail right-of-way, and also a good reminder for those that do know how they should behave.
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  29. #29
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    Don't know what the costs of these signs would be, but maybe this is something SWIMBA/Ridge-to-Rivers/whomever else can consider sometime this summer when the Tour de Fat comes around...use the proceeds from that for signage around the Foothills?

    Nick

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    There are already sings like this at most trailheads. The problem is that some folks don't seem to understand what yield means...

    matt

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    There are already sings like this at most trailheads. The problem is that some folks don't seem to understand what yield means...

    matt

  32. #32
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    We have already given Ridge to Rivers some signs..

    they look like this, and some of them have been put up and then replaced with a Ridge to Rivers sign. Signs are great and we recently got another board put up at Camelsback, so hopefully they will have an impact.

    In the end I think the best way to shape other mountain bikers is to set a good example.

    Here are some simple things I do:
    Avoid Camelsback on Wednesdays and Thursdays
    Friday nights, Sunday nights, and monday nights are usually the quietest
    Bring a bell and clip it on your bike for the downhill!
    Plan your ride so you are going down at the end of the evening since most people will be done or going down themselves
    You can ride hulls fast, just not on the busy times


    Chris
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  33. #33
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    hey Matt

    Quote Originally Posted by boisematt
    I agree - great idea. I'm a little luke warm on the table idea for the same reasons - I don't think we're going to target the people we need to target. The signs would be great as it would show the newer folks that when they get passed by the yahoos that it is NOT OK.

    I say post-away, Nick. The more people that are involved and know about this, the better. Ridge to Rivers, I assume, would have the final say on this...

    matt
    Hows your time in Boise been so far?
    You liking it?

    I've started riding Willow Lane been there last few days practicing rhythm on the set of tabletops. You don't really need anything except a crappy hardtail, drop the seat, flat pedals and some pads!

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by smilycook

    In the end I think the best way to shape other mountain bikers is to set a good example.

    Here are some simple things I do:
    Avoid Camelsback on Wednesdays and Thursdays
    Friday nights, Sunday nights, and monday nights are usually the quietest
    Bring a bell and clip it on your bike for the downhill!
    Plan your ride so you are going down at the end of the evening since most people will be done or going down themselves
    You can ride hulls fast, just not on the busy times


    Chris
    Chris,

    Avoidance is not going to solve this problem, even on the busy days - it just moves it somewhere else. Planning on coming down at the end of the evening also doesn't work, as I've had issues with folks bombing down Hulls as I'm running up at dusk. Now you add the fact that there's less light and the problem is even worse! Clipping a bell also doesn't work as it doesn't address the problem at all - which is a lack of respect for the etiquette problem in the first place. So a guy bombing down Hull's with a bell on is going to alert the uphill runner/biker that someone's coming down, but the bell isn't going to magically make that downhill rider stop and yield the right of way to the uphill rider/runner.

    I agree that setting a good example is the best way to change behavior. However, none of your suggestions address the bahavior that needs to be changed. This is NOT about riding Hulls or anywhere fast, per se, at least in my opinion (of course that is Dr. Collins' opinion).

    matt

  35. #35
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    Just a thought

    The area in and around Hulls Gulch, Freeway, etc is the most popular usage area in the foothills, so you are always going to get all kinds of traffic and jerks here and there and that's that. You wanna ride the most popular rides in Disneyland you gotta wait in line. Want to go fast and avoid traffic, you go ride a different area. There are plenty of other trails in the foothills with little traffic and will make you a stronger rider.

    ...and just cause you have a team jersey doesn't mean sh!t. In fact some of those people are even more clueless to trail riding cause they think they are above everyone due to the fact that they have a jersey and shorts that matches 10 other people.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuna
    ...and just cause you have a team jersey doesn't mean sh!t. In fact some of those people are even more clueless to trail riding cause they think they are above everyone due to the fact that they have a jersey and shorts that matches 10 other people.
    Very true. I have never had a close call with an armor wearing downhill biker in the 7 years that I have been in Boise but racer boy wanna-be's are another story. I have had many close calls with XC riders wearing spandex, team jerseys, bar ends, and clipless pedals. And, no, it's not just a matter of perception as to who almost killed who.

    In fact last fall was the first time that I was almost peeled by an uphill rider. I swear to god! I was coming down trail 4 at the intersection with Freeway when this XC rider who was trying to carry as much precious speed as he could up the hill came flying up at me and nearly hit me head on. Because I was coming to a stop at the bottom to wait for friends, he was easily going 2-3 times my speed. How many times does that happen?
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  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by zebdi
    snipsnipsnip How many times does that happen?
    Surprisingly many.

    Brotha it's happened to me at the exact same place - which is one of the blind corners I sometimes cringe when I go by during the busy season = no matter which direction I'm headed.

    I think the racers are more prone to not yielding because they're in the zone - and with all those endorphines buzzing around in their heads they tend to think their more indestructable and more entitled.

    Has this ever happened to you? I was riding up the connector to Chick Ridge closest to CB Park and a trail runner clipped my shoulder pretty good with his elbow. I made it pretty obvious I was yielding ROW him but I had a hunch he was intentionally trying haze me. I guess he had a big bowl of endorphine for breakfast that morning.
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  38. #38
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    How about expanding the right-of-way yield signs from a triangle to a square and having uphill and downhill pointed bikes depicted?

  39. #39
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    I think pictures are too much for some people to comprehend. Maybe just big letters saying "DOWNHILL RIDERS MUST YIELD TO UPHILL RIDERS"



    Quote Originally Posted by AdamW
    How about expanding the right-of-way yield signs from a triangle to a square and having uphill and downhill pointed bikes depicted?
    "Every time I see an adult on a bicycle, I no longer despair for the future of the human race." - H.G. Wells

  40. #40
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    I would disagree...

    Quote Originally Posted by boisematt
    Chris,

    Avoidance is not going to solve this problem, even on the busy days - it just moves it somewhere else. Planning on coming down at the end of the evening also doesn't work, as I've had issues with folks bombing down Hulls as I'm running up at dusk. Now you add the fact that there's less light and the problem is even worse! Clipping a bell also doesn't work as it doesn't address the problem at all - which is a lack of respect for the etiquette problem in the first place. So a guy bombing down Hull's with a bell on is going to alert the uphill runner/biker that someone's coming down, but the bell isn't going to magically make that downhill rider stop and yield the right of way to the uphill rider/runner.

    I agree that setting a good example is the best way to change behavior. However, none of your suggestions address the bahavior that needs to be changed. This is NOT about riding Hulls or anywhere fast, per se, at least in my opinion (of course that is Dr. Collins' opinion).

    matt
    There are a lot of miles of trails in the foothills and even on busy nights you can still find nearly empty trail if you ride in areas outside of Hulls Gulch. The problem is people seem to be programed to just ride that loop.

    You should try the bell, I have only gotten positive comments when I use the bell. It is like hearing a dirtbike coming and stepping off of the trail before the rider arrives. Obviously the uphill user has the right of way, but at times I will yeild the trail to downhill riders especially on hulls. Bells have worked great in Santa Barbara on the braile trail so why not here.

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  41. #41
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    Hulls Gulch is too easy...

    this makes people go too fast.

    Part of the solution is to make hulls gulch a harder trail, place rock gardens at blind corners, similar to what we did last year. Now without any education we have slowed down the yahoos.
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  42. #42
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    Good call,

    Quote Originally Posted by boisematt
    This is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about that gets me so annoyed. The BS about earning it just doesn't cut it. If I'm coming up the trail, I *am* earning my right of way to the trail - it doesn't go both ways. I presume that this attitude amoung local racers and hot shots is fairly common since it seems that it is the more intense riders who are the most likely to pull stuff like this. I don't think this is as much of a problem with the uneducated masses - at least from my perception - rather one of the seemingly "entitled" minority who doesn't feel the need to follow common courtesy, stop, and let the uphil rider pass.

    matt
    the rule is always yield to uphill traffic. The many reasons are too obvious. But somebody's gotta tell the idiots coming down the Freeway when its full of dogs, kids, bikes, and doofs like me who''s just come up from MR riding an hour already and might be too winded to look up and jump for my life. I've even been run into by idiots coming down Hulls who had plenty of notice and room to yield, but were unwilling to yield due to too much Mtn Dew coursing through their extreeeem veins.

    Boy am I ever impressed...
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  43. #43
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    ... and if we just ... Great idea,,,

    Quote Originally Posted by zebdi
    I don't disagree that setting up information booths would be helpful, but a lot of people won't stop at them, especially the ones that are causing the problems out there. They want to have no part in SWIMBA (if they have even heard of them). I may have suggested this long ago, but I don't remember now. Why don't we have simple signs placed occasionally on the trails with statements such as "Yeild the right-of-way to uphill riders" and "Keep our singletracks single : stay on the trail". The signs could be placed on frequently used (and abused) trails at various locations, not just at the trail head. They would need to face uphill also for the shuttlers who don't ride uphill. They signs could be sponsored by the same groups that sponsor the trail work and have their names on them. Just a suggestion.
    but more than signs, brochures and tables, a few of us beating the living shiitte outta violators might be a lot more effective and get the word out. ;~)

    My friend from Fruita who guides for Dreamride comes over to visit every year. He chased down a trail cutting Barney toward the end of one our rides and read him the proverbial riot act. Then he showed me how to place limbs and debris to channel traffic back onto the straight and narrow. Believe it or not, this was on a patch of Bob's where he found doofi cutting the trail.
    May your trails be narrow, crooked, lonesome and dangerous, leading to the most outrageous adventures. Paladin

  44. #44
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    Make Hulls harder

    I second Chris' make Hulls harder suggestion. The rock garden at the blind corner has saved me from collisions with downhill traffic more that once and has made the climb more enjoyable.

    Of course, I try to avoid Hulls during peak times just as a matter of principle.

    How many of us Hulls memorized anyway?
    Last edited by TwistedCrank; 04-14-2005 at 03:36 PM.
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  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by CBro
    Then he showed me how to place limbs and debris to channel traffic back onto the straight and narrow. Believe it or not, this was on a patch of Bob's where he found doofi cutting the trail.
    If I'm think of the same place that you are talking about, I did the same thing twice last year. It really pissed me off to see someone riding around the little rock ledge. I grabbed a bunch of wood and rocks and blocked it off but two weeks later it was destroyed so I put it back. The erosion was already beginning. If you can't ride the trail, ride somewhere else!
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  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by smilycook
    There are a lot of miles of trails in the foothills and even on busy nights you can still find nearly empty trail if you ride in areas outside of Hulls Gulch. The problem is people seem to be programed to just ride that loop.

    Chris
    Yes one can find empty trails for yourself, but the usage and therefore the conflicts are concentrated in the inner areas closest to town. Based on most of the comments here and the public plea from a Statesman writer, it seems that in fact there is a problem. Avoiding the conflict areas, ringing a bell, challenging games of chicken, are not going to stop the problems from escalating. There are more and more people using the trails and this trend will not change. Bikes are getting faster and faster -- this trend also will not change. We can choose to take action now to educate, make riders aware of a growing problem, and actively try to improve behaviour and our support in the community or choose not to and face the consequences. Presently all users seem to tolerate each other. I have lived places that at one time did not have user conflicts, yet now all users have their separate trails. Where equestrians, riders, and hikers are at each others throats. Where everybody loses something. I would hate to live here in Boise, be a part of this community, and witness this happen on my/our watch. Let's get active.

    I don't yet know if I can make it to the meeting next Wednesday, but sign me up for Saturday the 23rd.

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    Quote Originally Posted by smilycook
    this makes people go too fast.

    Part of the solution is to make hulls gulch a harder trail, place rock gardens at blind corners, similar to what we did last year. Now without any education we have slowed down the yahoos.
    OK, so you then you slow folks down on Hulls. What about coming down off the top of Corrals or down from the 8th St. Parking lot to Hulls? Making one trail harder, is in my mind just a band-aid solution. The cost of doing something similar on other trails where folks tend to speed around blind corners is mind-boggling. Educate. Develop a spiffy, little saying about trail courtesy along the lines of "Respectful MTBers". Have brochures that detail what (by example) "Respectful MTBers" are. And have "Respectful MTBers" (again just an example) slogans posted everywhere. Bike shop windows, trail heads, bars, coffee shops. Make it cool to be a "Respectful MTBer".

    Just another 2 cents. Adam

  48. #48
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    Smile Change is hard, But!!

    These multiple use traffic problems are being addressed all over the world. Some of the most effective ways I've seen are 1) Make trails like Hulls up hill only for bikes, all other users two way. 2) Make trails harder, rock gardens, stair steps. Oh Yea!!!!!!!!!!!!! 3) Designate a few trails, bikes only, oneway, down hill.
    Am I being kind?

  49. #49
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    Trail Conflict Topics

    IMBA has some great literature on understanding/solving trail conflict issues, here's a sample:

    As with crowding, conflict is not an objective state but depends on individual interpretations of past, present, and future contacts with others. Jacob and Schreyer (1980, 370) theorize that there are four classes of factors that produce conflict in outdoor recreation:

    Activity Style-The various personal meanings attached to an activity. Intensity of participation, status, range of experience, and definitions of quality (e.g., experts and novices may not mix well).

    Resource Specificity-The significance attached to using a specific recreation resource for a given recreation experience (e.g., someone running her favorite trail near where she grew up along Lake Tahoe will not appreciate seeing a tourist demonstrate a lack of respect for her "special place" by littering).

    Mode of Experience-The varying expectations of how the natural environment will be perceived (e.g., bird watchers who are "focused" on the natural environment will not mix well with a group of ATV riders seeking speed and thrills who are "unfocused" on the environment).

    Tolerance for Lifestyle Diversity-The tendency to accept or reject lifestyles different from one's own (e.g., some trail users "just don't like" people who do not share their values, priorities, trail activities, etc.).

    Clearly this is all theory and the "best solution" lies in local managment.

    Here's a link if you want to read some more -

    http://www.imba.com/resources/bike_m...sfull.html#thr


    Quote Originally Posted by AdamW
    OK, so you then you slow folks down on Hulls. What about coming down off the top of Corrals or down from the 8th St. Parking lot to Hulls? Making one trail harder, is in my mind just a band-aid solution. The cost of doing something similar on other trails where folks tend to speed around blind corners is mind-boggling. Educate. Develop a spiffy, little saying about trail courtesy along the lines of "Respectful MTBers". Have brochures that detail what (by example) "Respectful MTBers" are. And have "Respectful MTBers" (again just an example) slogans posted everywhere. Bike shop windows, trail heads, bars, coffee shops. Make it cool to be a "Respectful MTBer".

    Just another 2 cents. Adam

  50. #50
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    What about the dirtbikes? Do those guys just get a free pass to roost all over us in the foothills?

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    what?

    Quote Originally Posted by 14TripleD
    What about the dirtbikes? Do those guys just get a free pass to roost all over us in the foothills?
    Is your point? And how does it go with this thread?
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  52. #52
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    Don't get me wrong, most of the dirtbikers that I encounter are respectfull of the fact that I am also using the trail, but some of those guys are just *******s! I've been run off the trail several times (mostly on 4), and believe you me, it is WAY scarier to get run off a trail by a dirtbiker then another mountain biker.

    Is it an "enter at your own risk" type of thing for trails such as 4 and the ridge road?

  53. #53
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    On the back page of today's Local section in the Idaho Statesman, Pete Zimowsky writes about this very topic. Hopefully alot of Foothills users will read this and that it will sink in.

    Nick

  54. #54
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    You should always yeild trail to dirt bikes uphill or downhill

    Quote Originally Posted by 14TripleD
    Don't get me wrong, most of the dirtbikers that I encounter are respectfull of the fact that I am also using the trail, but some of those guys are just *******s! I've been run off the trail several times (mostly on 4), and believe you me, it is WAY scarier to get run off a trail by a dirtbiker then another mountain biker.

    Is it an "enter at your own risk" type of thing for trails such as 4 and the ridge road?
    they won't hear you, but you can almost always hear them before they get to you. I always step off the trail when a dirt bike or atv is coming.

    I have seen too many mountain bikers trying to challenge dirt bikers on the trail, it is just not worth it. They have the weight and speed advantage.
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