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Thread: HD handling

  1. #1
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    HD handling

    I know a lot of you are coming to HD's from Mojo's, so you may not notice this, but it seem like the HD puts you body position rather forward for a DH biased bike. Coming from owning a few Turners, this feels kind of odd and uncomfortable going down steeps. I always felt I could hang out back on my Turners, but not so much on the HD. It seems to require a different riding style.

    Anyone else notice this?

  2. #2
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    It does have a 6 inch trail bike balance for sure riding the 30 speed demo set up, like a Nomad only more solid and smoother. The Firebird is slacker, more DH feeling. An Angleset headset and 180mm fork could slack the fork to 65 degrees before sag and bias the weight further back.

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    The HD is no downhill bike that's for sure, but I found it much more stable on steep slopes than my DW 5-Spot, and that was with run with 160mm forks. IMHO I find Turners a bit too steep.

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    Quote Originally Posted by derby
    It does have a 6 inch trail bike balance for sure riding the 30 speed demo set up, like a Nomad only more solid and smoother. The Firebird is slacker, more DH feeling. An Angleset headset and 180mm fork could slack the fork to 65 degrees before sag and bias the weight further back.
    On paper the firebird is slightly steeper - does it feel slacker than the HD? Or are you staring definitively that it's slacker? Not interested in an angleset as I need to climb. I was thinking the HD at 67 deegrees HA would be the perfect balance betweeen climbing and descending.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scepticshock
    I know a lot of you are coming to HD's from Mojo's, so you may not notice this, but it seem like the HD puts you body position rather forward for a DH biased bike. Coming from owning a few Turners, this feels kind of odd and uncomfortable going down steeps. I always felt I could hang out back on my Turners, but not so much on the HD. It seems to require a different riding style.

    Anyone else notice this?
    I switch between the HD and normal Mojo depending on the ride I'm doing.
    The HD feels like I'm back more than the regular Mojo.
    Just this weekend I rode Downieville on it for the first time. As I was railing the DH sections I felt like I was riding a missile. The bike is so friggin stable at high speed on downhills it unreal to me. I always feel like I'm in control and only have "oh *****" moments when I stop paying attention for a second.

    As for steep DH stuff, I think the bike is excellent at it. I have a 60mm stem on mine which helps, but I've never felt like I wasn't back far enough.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wilks
    On paper the firebird is slightly steeper - does it feel slacker than the HD? Or are you staring definitively that it's slacker? Not interested in an angleset as I need to climb. I was thinking the HD at 67 deegrees HA would be the perfect balance betweeen climbing and descending.
    Humm, yes it is, nearly the same geo. I guess I was feeling the Firebird's longer wheelbase in the large size.

    Before doing a long trail ride on the HD I was considering the Angleset to steepen the head angle in the 140mm set up for tight trail riding with lots of climbing to be about the same as the SL.geo. After the long demo, I think it climbs and handles tight trail just fine at 160mm travel. There's a lot of possibilities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by derby
    Humm, yes it is, nearly the same geo. I guess I was feeling the Firebird's longer wheelbase in the large size.

    Before doing a long trail ride on the HD I was considering the Angleset to steepen the head angle in the 140mm set up for tight trail riding with lots of climbing to be about the same as the SL.geo. After the long demo, I think it climbs and handles tight trail just fine at 160mm travel. There's a lot of possibilities.
    No complaints at all about the bikes agility on tight trails on a large frame. It's a small frame for a large, at least as far as wheel base.

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    To be honest, I'm astounded that Ibis are fitting the HD with stems between 70mm and 130(!)mm

    This seems odd, given the trend towards shorter stems on Trail/AM bikes. There's been pretty consistent feedback from riders in here that shorter stems (eg: 70mm and less) transform the ride on even the standard mojo. Certainly this was my experience.

    Seriously, a 130mm stem shouldn't even be seen in the same zipcode as a Mojo HD. Not quite what their reasoning is on that.

    It's so 1990's hardtail XC bike.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by d-bug
    I switch between the HD and normal Mojo depending on the ride I'm doing.
    The HD feels like I'm back more than the regular Mojo.
    Just this weekend I rode Downieville on it for the first time. As I was railing the DH sections I felt like I was riding a missile. The bike is so friggin stable at high speed on downhills it unreal to me. I always feel like I'm in control and only have "oh *****" moments when I stop paying attention for a second.

    As for steep DH stuff, I think the bike is excellent at it. I have a 60mm stem on mine which helps, but I've never felt like I wasn't back far enough.
    I agree the bike would be sick at Downieville. But I don't think Downieville is that steep overall.
    Anyway I just put on a 60 mm stem so I'll see how that goes. Not a huge change from a 70 but maybe enough.

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    Quote Originally Posted by derby
    Humm, yes it is, nearly the same geo. I guess I was feeling the Firebird's longer wheelbase in the large size.
    I have ridden the HD and Firebird as well and the Firebird feels more stable and more DH oriented than the HD. It is probably the longer wheelbase. It also has more travel which decreases the sagged headangle ever so slightly more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scepticshock
    I agree the bike would be sick at Downieville. But I don't think Downieville is that steep overall.
    Anyway I just put on a 60 mm stem so I'll see how that goes. Not a huge change from a 70 but maybe enough.
    Agreed, D'ville isn't close to steep anywhere. Guess I forgot to finish my thought before posting...
    I did a 2 week trip to Squamish and Whistler last month where I did hit some really steep stuff and I felt comfortable with the bike the whole time. That said, I have never ridden a DH oriented bike, so I can't draw a comparison to one.

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    Sounds like you put it to the test. It's probably more me, and what I have been used too. Although, I'm now wondering If I jumped too soon after seeing the preview for 2011.

    Man that stem that Ibis sells really looks silly and frail on an HD. They should have an AM line in some shorter lengths. I put a Gravity Gap stem on there, and it looks Way better!

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    Honeymoon over-No Mojo for Mojo HD

    I really wanted to love this sexy creature, but it clear we are not made for each other.

    It is the nicest looking bike I ever owned, and the most expensive, but after patiently fiddling with it, and riding it for a few months on trails I have taken my previous bikes on countless times, I have to say I am disapointed. I ride the worst, and have the least amount of convidence, on this bike compared to my last two bikes. Instead of taking it up a notch I have taken it down a notch or two.

    I would rate this bike on the XC side of all mountain (cross- mountain) with a 160mm fork. Maybe a bigger fork will make this bike come alive. I don't know. But I would take issue with many of the reviews that say this bike is oriented toward decending. To me it feels like it puts you in a good climbing postion, and more for all around cruisng. But then, that's what 5" bikes are for. Right?

    I am also not a a big fan of the short wheelbase concept. Yes, it helps cornering in tight situations, but it also takes away stability at speed, or in chunk. I also don't find the wheel base an asset in steep climbs.

    The HD seems to really fly on the fast smoother trails, I'll give it that. But I was hoping for a lot more.

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    Sorry to hear. What kind of headset are you using? Maybe you can alter the setup to be slightly slacker with your present fork to see if a longer fork is in order for you. However, I met another on a recent vacation and the HD felt more like a Spot with a 32, or something in that category, as far as geo went.

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    I don't consider the HD a "DH biased bike". To me it's an allround trail bike with exellent climbing and descending abilities. I guess the bike has a low front and a rather aggresive position compared to most other 6" bikes (based on reading geo charts, haven't tried many irl).

    I'm coming from a Ventana X-5, and my HD is actually lower in front than my x-5 set-up. It took some time getting used to this, but I wasn't suprised having tried a Mojo in the past.

    For the trails I ride which is both up and down and largely fairly tecnical, but not too steep the HD to me is just perfect. I would go for a 180 in front, and maybe even a higher bar if I were to use the bike in lift assisted parks or steeper terrain.

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    Personally I would like to see the HD shipped with a coil. Even on my mojo std a coil out performs the std RP23. Sure its heavier, sure you need a custom tune but when its all said and done a coil is better. I think the Mojos can be a bit low in the front for some tastes but low wide front ends are every where even on the gnarliest DH rigs. For me the key to unlocking the Std Mojos potential was an MX Tune Push Van R. I have had it changed since I got it from Cwal so that it rides a bit softer. Here's the thing I think there are many very good aspects to the DW link but it does hook up on square edges. Run an air shock soft enough to smooth these out and you get wallow in the mid stroke. Pump the shock up to avoid wallow and it gets hard as F%@k very very quickly. The Pro pedal choke the shock and is borderline useless on all but the smoothest climbs.
    I love mine now. Its sit in its travel a bit better, smooth as butter, pedals better than the RP23 (something that still surprises me) and doesn't use it's travel too greedily in the mid stroke. I have owned my Mojo 2 years now and it is evolving all the time but its pretty darn close. Pixx will be posted as soon as I replace the XT cranks I snapped last night! Carbon fragile, give me a break!

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by nzl62
    Personally I would like to see the HD shipped with a coil. ...
    Ibis' new web site lists the RC4 as a $215 option.

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    I'd probably want to do the vivid over the rc4, plus I can custom tune it or push it myself.

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    Pushed vivid MX Tune with Obtainium spring......

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    Thats great news that the HD's have a decent coil vsn.

  21. #21
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    That is good news, but I won't be buying new shocks unless I can sort out the geometry. And that issue is front end.

    I currently have a CC110 headset, which I now will have to sell if I get an angle set.

  22. #22
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    I can say that I came away from my 33 mile test ride on a brand new Mojo HD disappointed. It had a fox air shock rear and Lyrik up front. The Lyrik wasn't broken in so it required much lower air pressure and more sag to get it to feel right on the trail. The rear shock I had to add more air and reduce the sag to help it climb better. It felt like a Horst link bike when climbing, like the rear was really squatting under power. When descending really steep chutes and switchback at the top of Burro pass it was very un-nerveing. I felt very uncomfortable on it through there. Even on the twisty single track it felt like the rear was too low making the front light and slack which made getting through what should have been a very fun section very tedious. It wasn't until we got to the open double track of Kokopelli and porc that the Mojo HD felt at home. It never felt as plush or controlled as the RFX prototype or even my Sultan with much less travel. I rode LPS and porc a few days earlier on a Norco Shinobi and thought it had a much better ride with it's FSR suspension.
    Nothing to see here.

  23. #23
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    I rode one for 2 days in Hurricane and thought it was the tits. (MTBR Pro review style)
    NOAH SEARS
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSINGA
    I can say that I came away from my 33 mile test ride on a brand new Mojo HD disappointed. It had a fox air shock rear and Lyrik up front. The Lyrik wasn't broken in so it required much lower air pressure and more sag to get it to feel right on the trail. The rear shock I had to add more air and reduce the sag to help it climb better. It felt like a Horst link bike when climbing, like the rear was really squatting under power. When descending really steep chutes and switchback at the top of Burro pass it was very un-nerveing. I felt very uncomfortable on it through there. Even on the twisty single track it felt like the rear was too low making the front light and slack which made getting through what should have been a very fun section very tedious. It wasn't until we got to the open double track of Kokopelli and porc that the Mojo HD felt at home. It never felt as plush or controlled as the RFX prototype or even my Sultan with much less travel. I rode LPS and porc a few days earlier on a Norco Shinobi and thought it had a much better ride with it's FSR suspension.
    Aside from that kinda long looking stem, what do you think made it feel un-nerving going down the steeps? The air pressures you ran seem like a recipe for stink-bugging. Did you try just flipping on the PP lever to keep it riding higher in travel while climbing? Do you think the RFX proto had the advantage becuase of the 180 fork?

    Noah- How does the Mojo HD compare with the Endorphine?

  25. #25
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    A lot of these comments scream, "Too short top tube."
    Keep the Country country.

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    I have been thinking that myself. 24"TT would be more ideal for a large. But the trend these days is a 23.8, such as the Nomad, Spot etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scepticshock
    I have been thinking that myself. 24"TT would be more ideal for a large. But the trend these days is a 23.8, such as the Nomad, Spot etc.
    there is more than just the TT measurement.

    ChainStay length
    Wheelbase
    DT length..

    the large Nomad has a longer DT, thus giving it a WB that is quite a bit longer than the HD. Longer WB's are much more stable at speed.

  28. #28
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    Interesting comments, I was curious as I spent a day on a Mojo HD and alot of what I found is coming up here. I felt less than confident on the DH's and never felt comfy on the bike, I really was wanting to like it and was assuming part of it was bike set up - I still feel as though that was part of it, the one I rode had a DHX Air (not my favorite shock) and some odd parts like a flexy wheel set up, long stem etc. I always felt like I was 'on' the bike rather than 'in' the bike. The TT could be part of it, I was on an XL and it felt tight/short compared to my Spitfire, and the ride was a lot rougher and less stable than what I'm used to (I did spend the time to set up the rear shock to my weight before hand).
    I am hoping to have another chance to play around with one and try to fine tune the set-up (bars, wheels, stem) to see if that works better.

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    I find all this hard to believe.

  30. #30
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    I'm really not that suprised to hear that the HD is not to everybodys taste, cause I do believe it's an acquired one. I am a bit suprised though to hear some of the comments. Like the one saying that the bike is really squatting under power?

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    I think they're just haters.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by junktrunk
    I find all this hard to believe.

    Me too since it cost me more $ to rent this HD over other bikes available. I got sucked in by the hype and it bit me in the ass.
    Nothing to see here.

  33. #33
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    My HD140 handles like a dream, way better than the regular Mojo. It puts the weight further back with the slacker HA and seattube. I think these guys don't know how to ride or something, if you're used to xc bikes and you don't weigh the front a little on the HD it might run a bit wide from the slacker angles, a bit more weight on the bars and it carves like a dream. Steep stuff is way better than original Mojo as well, and the longer wheel base just makes it feel like its on rails.

    Also it feels as if this HD has more antisquat than the original Mojo, I had to let more air out of my shock to get the same sag, the rear feels less mushy and more stiff, better for going fast.

  34. #34
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    The first mistake is thinking the the HD is a "downhill oriented" bike. It's not and it's not marketed that way. I have an HD, a Nomad, stumpjumper and a Santa Cruz V10. The HD falls in between the Nomad and Stumperjumper. It feels like a blend between the two. If that is what you are looking for, the Nomad fits that bill for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SofaKing Fast
    The first mistake is thinking the the HD is a "downhill oriented" bike. It's not and it's not marketed that way. I have an HD, a Nomad, stumpjumper and a Santa Cruz V10. The HD falls in between the Nomad and Stumperjumper. It feels like a blend between the two. If that is what you are looking for, the Nomad fits that bill for me.
    Can you explain that? I have been seeing the nomad and Mojo Hd specifications minutes ago and itīs seems almost the "same bike" in the fundamental geometries, like head angle, tube angle (71,5 nomad // 71 Mojo hd) and I think itīs could be use exactly for the same conditions like a nomad.

    Probably, the "problem" is that people who usually have a ibis, have a trail bike and country bike like the mojo sl or the normal Mojo and when this people acquire a Mojo they hope about the same work like a normal mojo but better in downhill, not more and I think that itīs not exactly like that.

    The mojo hd itīs a intensive use bike, this bike do its best with a really enduro rutes like megavalanche in France or Enduro Cup in Italy, itīs a bike to squeeze it... not to use in a "normal" and soft rutes... itīs more than these.... so itīs very probable that this bike (which is an Enduro bike, not a simply trail bike) works better in a hard conditions....

  36. #36
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    You can't judge a bike on the specs. The Nomad has a head tube that is almost twice the length as the HD. It makes the front end feel much taller. The Nomad is longer and the chain stays are longer. I did a 20+ mile ride on the HD today and it just ripped. I faster uphill and didn't feel any slower downhill. Not as plush as the Nomad but not too bad for an air shock.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SofaKing Fast
    You can't judge a bike on the specs. The Nomad has a head tube that is almost twice the length as the HD. It makes the front end feel much taller. The Nomad is longer and the chain stays are longer. I did a 20+ mile ride on the HD today and it just ripped. I faster uphill and didn't feel any slower downhill. Not as plush as the Nomad but not too bad for an air shock.
    Are you sure about the nomad tube? twice? I donīt know about what nomad are you talking about... Nomad 1 or 2.

    Nomad 2 tube --> 12,7cm in Size L
    Mojo Hd tube --> 11,8cm in Size L

    If you talking about the Nomad 1 itīs ok, in fact, the nomad 2 itīs more a trail bike than Nomad 1 ( Nomad 1 itīs a killer downhill enduro bike and Nomad 2 itīs a good rutes bike but not as downhiller as Nomad1).

    Any way... Iīm attached the Nomad 2 Mojo Hd and Pivot firebird geometries. (SIZE Large)

    NOMINAL SIZE------------------------------- IBIS LARGE ---------------------------- NOMAD2 LARGE ---------------------------- FIREBIRD LARGE
    Seat Tube Length----------------------------- 19"------------------------------------------ 18,5"-------------------------------------------- 19"
    Top Tube Length------------------------------ 60,45cm------------------------------------- 60,3cm----------------------------------------60,9cm
    Head Tube Length------------------------------ 11,8cm-------------------------------------12,7cm------------------------------------------- 12,7cm
    Chainstay Length------------------------------- 435mm---------------------------------- 431,8mm-------------------------------------------- 431,8mm
    Seat Tube Angle---------------------------------- 71š-----------------------------------------71,5š------------------------------------------------ 71,5š
    Head Tube Angle----------------------------- 67š------------------------------------------ 67š------------------------------------------------ 67,2š
    Wheelbase--------------------------------------- 1134mm-------------------------------- 1143mm------------------------------------- (Not Found)
    Standover --------------------------------------- 760mm--------------------------------------736,6mm------------------------------------------711,2mm


    And now, explain me please... why the nomad itīs a better downhiller bike...

    The chainstay IS NOT LONGER THAN THE IBIS.
    The wheelbase is longer for 9mm ... ONLY. (I think itīs not enough to declare that)
    Last edited by AdrianoMTB; 10-09-2010 at 04:51 PM.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by junktrunk
    I find all this hard to believe.
    If this is a respoinse to my comment I guess that's your perogative, I've ridden a lot of bikes similar to the HD for extended periods and I really was excited to test it out. I've owned a Nomad, ridden the newer Nomads, extensively ridden a Firebird, ridden the new Yeti 7", lots of time on the Banshee Rune, Reign, and Trek Remedy. I'm no hater of Ibis bikes, and this bike belongs to a good friend so I really didn't want to find anything 'wrong' with it, and I did say I'd like to play more with it's set-up, but there are a few things that won't get fixed with parts for my personal riding tastes. To me it feels like 6" of firm travel that will appeal to someone (probably with an xc background) who likes firm riding bikes, providing that their body dimensions match Ibis' geometry.

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    with the table I create... I hope that the people who speaks about this bike like if was not as well as other bikes, thinking about placebo effect or prejudice because if you see the table (you can find the dates if you donīt believe it) there is nothing special between HD,FIREBIRD OR NOMAD2 to start thinking about the Mojo HD is not so good downhill bike like the others...

    there are practically similars... a little bit difference between them...

    Iīm still not understanding....

  40. #40
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    I am not dogging the HD. Your numbers are based on assumptions. To stay that one frame is the same as another is fine but rideing just a frame alone would be tough to ride without the other component. MY 35lbs coil shocked Nomad is a better decender than MY 28.5 lbs HD. Over the route I rode today, the HD was clearly faster. MY experience tells me so. Time to get back on topic.

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    Anyway itīs true that probably itīs not the same the dates instead of use... so thatīs why i bought a HD too

  42. #42
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    I don't know. The bike is billed to work with 180mm forks and there is a single ring chain guide sold for it. That to me says this bike is being promoted as a descender. Perhaps not until you slap the big fork on it.

    The Nomad Carbon appears to have 17.4" chain stays compared to the HD's 17.1" according to the USA site. "On paper" the Nomad would seem to have the DH edge.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdrianoMTB
    And now, explain me please... why the nomad itīs a better downhiller bike...

    The chainstay IS NOT LONGER THAN THE IBIS.
    The wheelbase is longer for 9mm ... ONLY. (I think itīs not enough to declare that)
    at least get your facts straight. certainly you're looking at the wrong geo chart for the Nomad.
    http://www.santacruzbikes.com/nomad/geo.php

    IBIS Mojo chainstay length: 435mm (17.1 inches)
    Carbon Nomad chainstay length: 17.4 inches.

    the CS length delta is 0.3", that's a considerable difference.

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    I have not ridden a Nomad gen 2 but I have ridden a Firebird, V.1 Remedy (with Lyrik) and currently ride an Uzzi VP. I have tested an HD as well.

    The HD is a bit less stable going down than the abovementioned bikes but pedaled more effeciently and ripped tight singletrack better. It is a great bike, it just rides a bit more on the trail side of the all mountain spectrum in my experience. Not a pro or a con just a difference. I personally liked the HD and would consider it an ideal 30 mile epic bike for Colorado riding but I would reach for one of the other bikes mentioned above for riding porc rim.

  45. #45
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    If people want a higher front end on the HD just add spacers the geometry is very close if not exact in the relevant angle department. As for the rear suspension side of things I think you either like it or you like vpp, I think it depends on the preferred use I personally prefer DW and the HD as it is a far better all rounder fast up, fast down, very stiff and no pedal feed back I use it as a heavy duty xc (or all mountain if you like) bike with a lyrik dh 170mm fork, I'm using a 70mm 0 rise stem but considering going shorter and would appreciate some feedback in this department.

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    Ride position

    I think the geometry is important but the ride position in relation to the centre of the seat position and the centre of the crank is different on both of the bikes compared to my Specialized Enduro. Both bikes but the Nomad more so feel like your feeet are further forward than your Biffins Bridge. This alters the leaverage in the peddling motion this I have found to be the biggest difference, most other details can be altered to feel simular to or comfortable in my required riding position. The Enduro has a cranked seat tube this positions you in a closer to verticle position above the crank centre.
    Has this point/feeling been noticed by any others when changing bikes??

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    I set my seat/pedal position based on the kind of riding that bike will see most of (farther forward and tilted forward on my Mojo SL, a little farther back and flat on my Bullit) and would change it on any bike to where I like it. A bike's geo shouldn't affect this as there's enough range of adjustment at the seat rails and with straight or setback posts.

    A bike's seattube angle will affect the fore/aft of the seat as it's lowered. My ideal would be a vertical seattube angle so I could put the seat where I want it at full height and it wouldn't move forward when I lower it for descents.
    Keep the Country country.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by scepticshock
    Noah- How does the Mojo HD compare with the Endorphine?
    They're different bikes for sure.

    The HD is much snappier and quicker than the Endorphin, surely that has a lot to do with the overall weight of the bike I rode (<30lbs.) vs. my own Endorphin (~36lbs.).

    I'll have a better comparison once I have more time on an HD on my local trails, and built up the way I imagined it. I'm mostly moving to an HD to get a more XC oriented bike, I plan to have it setup 150/140 most of the time with a lightish build. The Endorphin, though a stellar bike, is a bit overkill for most of the riding I do but spot-on some of the time. With a spare fork and shock (wheels too sometimes) the HD can cover a bit wider spectrum.

    If Endorphin XCs were ready now I'd most likely be picking one of them up, but seeing as they won't be out until spring, and I'm ready to try something new now, that has lead me to the HD. I value the people behind the brand much more than the "bike" so-to-speak, and the crews and Ibis and Knolly are tops in the business. Not giving up my Podium anytime soon, that's for sure!
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    Stem

    Quote Originally Posted by spooney
    If people want a higher front end on the HD just add spacers the geometry is very close if not exact in the relevant angle department. As for the rear suspension side of things I think you either like it or you like vpp, I think it depends on the preferred use I personally prefer DW and the HD as it is a far better all rounder fast up, fast down, very stiff and no pedal feed back I use it as a heavy duty xc (or all mountain if you like) bike with a lyrik dh 170mm fork, I'm using a 70mm 0 rise stem but considering going shorter and would appreciate some feedback in this department.
    I agree with Spooney, if you like VPP go with the Nomad C, if you like DW go with the HD. I have the Lyrik 160 SA with a 70cm stem, a 50cm stem is better for DH. A 60cm would split the difference. I went with the 160 over the 170 as I plan to add the 2-step for steep climbing, and kept the 22 and 32 rings but added the Gamut on the 44t ring.

    I had an old SC superlight, and wanted a new bike I could take anywhere. The HD fit the bill for me as my one bike. It is fine for NorCal trails and Lift access DH.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spooney
    If people want a higher front end on the HD just add spacers the geometry is very close if not exact in the relevant angle department. As for the rear suspension side of things I think you either like it or you like vpp, I think it depends on the preferred use I personally prefer DW and the HD as it is a far better all rounder fast up, fast down, very stiff and no pedal feed back I use it as a heavy duty xc (or all mountain if you like) bike with a lyrik dh 170mm fork, I'm using a 70mm 0 rise stem but considering going shorter and would appreciate some feedback in this department.
    I put a Totem and a 50 mm stem on mine.It felt a little cramped at first but it's allright.I'm surprised the front tire stays on the ground so well on steep climbs.I wouldn't mind a slightly longer stem but won't bother.

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoahColorado
    They're different bikes for sure.

    The HD is much snappier and quicker than the Endorphin, surely that has a lot to do with the overall weight of the bike I rode (<30lbs.) vs. my own Endorphin (~36lbs.).

    I'll have a better comparison once I have more time on an HD on my local trails, and built up the way I imagined it. I'm mostly moving to an HD to get a more XC oriented bike, I plan to have it setup 150/140 most of the time with a lightish build. The Endorphin, though a stellar bike, is a bit overkill for most of the riding I do but spot-on some of the time. With a spare fork and shock (wheels too sometimes) the HD can cover a bit wider spectrum.

    If Endorphin XCs were ready now I'd most likely be picking one of them up, but seeing as they won't be out until spring, and I'm ready to try something new now, that has lead me to the HD. I value the people behind the brand much more than the "bike" so-to-speak, and the crews and Ibis and Knolly are tops in the business. Not giving up my Podium anytime soon, that's for sure!
    Thanks for the feedback! Please post up more later once you have some time on it.

  52. #52
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    Sizing seems to play a big role in the handling.

    I just spent the last 3 days riding identically configured L and XL Ibis demo bikes in Norcal (Demo & Wilder). Setup was Talas 160/RP23, XT kit, Iodines with WTB Weirwolf 2.3/Mutano 2.4 tires with a 70mm on the L and a 60mm on the XL.

    I'm 6'1" - 6'2" so the L with a 70mm and a XL with a 50mm fit well cockpit wise.

    On the L I felt like my weight was forward and even with a couple of headset spacers on the L to get the two bikes at the same bar height I still felt like the front end was lower on the L and that it was noticeable in how it impacted DH handling for me. It climbed amazingly well and was alot of fun on twisty single track but I really felt like I was on a stiff, carbon 5" bike going DH.

    On the XL I felt like my weight was centered on the pedals and it finally felt like the bike I had expected on the DH. Climbing also felt like a 6" bike though. The bike still climbs really, really well (it is a Mojo afterall) just a matter of needing to shift body weight more forward (again relative to the L which climbed like a smaller bike). Loses a little on Zane Grey because of the longer wheelbase but for me the perfect balance and stability with the XL more than makes up for it.

    Depending on what you are building the bike to be (especially with the 160/140mm option) you may want to look closely at sizing and your weight bias on the bike.

    As an aside I have a 33" inseam and the Joplin 4 worked fine on the XL, so don't let the ST length scare you (was a big concern for me).

    -Shane

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    Quote Originally Posted by seleniak
    As an aside I have a 33" inseam and the Joplin 4 worked fine on the XL, so don't let the ST length scare you (was a big concern for me).
    Good info but I disagree with you on this point. I'm on an XL with a 35" inseam and have been properly fitted and I will just barely fit the Reverb, haven't checked any of the other post measurements but Joplin 4 should be similar. So I think it is an issue people need to pay attention to if they want to fit an adjustable post. I would have liked to see a 20 or 20.5" ST.

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    I would have to agree with the other posters that the largest short coming for me is the top tube length.

    The large is a bit too short and I don't want a 21 inch seat tube. Besides a five spot, it has the shortest top tube in its class (along with the Nomad). IMHO 24 inches should be the min on a 19 inch seatube, especially with the trend towards shorter stems. That's why there are options though; you can't make everyone happy.
    Last edited by smithrider; 10-18-2010 at 07:50 AM.

  55. #55
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    I noticed this trend with Turner bikes and was not crazy about this trend with pushing 6' riders to an XL with 21" seat tubes. I think the shorter TT can aslo contribute to an "on the bike rather then in the bike" feel.

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    Rob,
    Agree the shorter ST would be ALOT better. My comment was more because I had let the ST length steer my choice of frame size and had it not been for this thread and all the feedback on sizing/handling would have bought the L instead of the XL.

    The Joplin worked well on the XL with a Fizik Gobi saddle so I honestly believe the Reverb will work for me, but I will know foresure in a few weeks. If I can make it work wit a 33" inseam expect most guys looking at an XL will be able to also but it's all subjective when it comes to what works climbing and descending.

    -Shane

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by seleniak
    Rob,
    Agree the shorter ST would be ALOT better. My comment was more because I had let the ST length steer my choice of frame size and had it not been for this thread and all the feedback on sizing/handling would have bought the L instead of the XL.

    The Joplin worked well on the XL with a Fizik Gobi saddle so I honestly believe the Reverb will work for me, but I will know foresure in a few weeks. If I can make it work wit a 33" inseam expect most guys looking at an XL will be able to also but it's all subjective when it comes to what works climbing and descending.

    -Shane
    Here's a pic of my XL Mojo and XL HD with adjustable seatposts.
    The KS barely fits on the bike with 1/2" to spare, the GD is the 4" model with about 1" to spare. I would have gotten the 5" GD model but it won't fit my bikes, so I went with the KS. Both seats are fairly low profile which helps. Previous seats were taller and the KS would have been slid all the way down, or may not have fit at all.

    With a 33" inseam, the 5" posts may not work or will be a tight fit. I have a 34" inseam and mine barely fits.

    The long seat tube has been the one thing I would change on frame design of the XL, a 20" would be better IMO.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails HD handling-img_9090.jpg  


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    Thanks Dan. Had the Joplin slammed all the way down with the XL and will definitely only get 4" of the travel with the Reverb (not the full 5"). Hoping since it is infinite adjust upto the 125mm that it holds well at the lower mark. If not I may have to look at a 4" GD.
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  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by seleniak
    Thanks Dan. Had the Joplin slammed all the way down with the XL and will definitely only get 4" of the travel with the Reverb (not the full 5"). Hoping since it is infinite adjust upto the 125mm that it holds well at the lower mark. If not I may have to look at a 4" GD.
    Oops, my bad, I forgot the Reverb was 5" compared to the 4" of the Joplin. One person on the site had measured the minimum on the Reverb(bottom of seal collar to seat rail) to be 190mm and another at 195. Thats going to leave me with about 1/8-1/4" to spare.

    Don't you think it will be annoying as hell to always have to search out that optimal 4" mark or whatever it will be short of full travel?

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by d-bug
    With a 33" inseam, the 5" posts may not work or will be a tight fit. I have a 34" inseam and mine barely fits.

    The long seat tube has been the one thing I would change on frame design of the XL, a 20" would be better IMO.
    I don't know my inseam but I wear 34" jeans and I'm 6'2". I have to run the 5"KS on my XL Mojo just above the minimum insertion line to get full height. I had to do the same thing with my Joplin.
    Keep the Country country.

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    For me it's not really a case of searching out any particular height on an infinite post. I find I raise it to whatever height I am holding my body at at that moment which varies quote a bit depending on what I'm doing.

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by MartinS
    If this is a respoinse to my comment I guess that's your perogative, I've ridden a lot of bikes similar to the HD for extended periods and I really was excited to test it out. I've owned a Nomad, ridden the newer Nomads, extensively ridden a Firebird, ridden the new Yeti 7", lots of time on the Banshee Rune, Reign, and Trek Remedy. I'm no hater of Ibis bikes, and this bike belongs to a good friend so I really didn't want to find anything 'wrong' with it, and I did say I'd like to play more with it's set-up, but there are a few things that won't get fixed with parts for my personal riding tastes. To me it feels like 6" of firm travel that will appeal to someone (probably with an xc background) who likes firm riding bikes, providing that their body dimensions match Ibis' geometry.
    Just want to offer an update.
    I recently got to try another HD, this time running a RS Vivid R2C air shock on the back and a custom build with better selected parts than the stock Ibis offerings. It made a significant difference over the DHX Air/long stem/narrow bar bike I rode previously (as I suspected).
    That being said personally I would like to see the XL frame to have a longer TT - 25" is a realistic XL size (not just a problem with Ibis' XL's - SC should do the same), and a degree slacker head angle (the angle issue may be solved with an angleset, if the frame is compatable).
    Ibis also has to improve their part spec on the front end of the bike for next year and get away from the XC orientation of the stem/bar setup.
    My opinion of the bike is improving!

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by MartinS
    Just want to offer an update.
    I recently got to try another HD, this time running a RS Vivid R2C air shock on the back and a custom build with better selected parts than the stock Ibis offerings. It made a significant difference over the DHX Air/long stem/narrow bar bike I rode previously (as I suspected).
    That being said personally I would like to see the XL frame to have a longer TT - 25" is a realistic XL size (not just a problem with Ibis' XL's - SC should do the same), and a degree slacker head angle (the angle issue may be solved with an angleset, if the frame is compatable).
    Ibis also has to improve their part spec on the front end of the bike for next year and get away from the XC orientation of the stem/bar setup.
    My opinion of the bike is improving!
    A couple of notes:
    The RP23 is superior to the DHX air on the HD. The RC4 works well also.
    Stem length is specified when the bike is ordered. In other words, the customer picks the stem. The bike will be great fun on demo rides if set up well.

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    I agree with hanssc. The RP32 is just fine for the HD, but this does need to be set up properly, along with the front fork. I have the M HD with the Lyrix RC 160, which I added a 2 Step. I was thinking of going with the 170 or even a 180 totum, but like the 160, and the 2 step give a choice of lowering the front on steep climbs. I run just the RP32 and do not bottom out.

    To so earlier posts, the HD, along with the Nomad C are 160 trail bikes, not DH bikes, but are great on single BD type runs. The carbon frames allow you to build a sub 30 lb bike, which is great for climbing and descending. The HD is fine on steeps, even mildly steep rock gardens, but for double BD type runs a true HD bike is obviously better.

    I also have the 70mm step, though about going shorter, but there really is no need. The 70mm is good for climbing and descending.

    In the past 2 months I have ridden multiple times at N*, Downieville, Skeggs, Demo, Annedale and Pacifica. The HD is great on Big Boulder/Pauly/Mt Ewell as there is alot of climbing. It is fun at demo, again where there is lots of climbing. Skeggs is not very technical, but the HD is great on the single track there, and good on the grinding climbs. The HD is rides really nice on the rocks in Annedale, both up and down. I would say that a true HD bike is better for crack and xxx in Pacifica, as the climb up is easy, even on a +35 lb bike. The HD is great in the rocks on mile and on the Boy Scout trail/jumps, and made it down crack and xxx, although I had a few oh Sh*t moments. A 64 deg HA and dual crown longer travel fork would make these type of DH trails easier, I plan to add a angle set, and possibly a 180 fork.

    I am 5.9 and ride the M, but could have gone with a large, but always find myself between sizes and tend to go smaller. The geo of the M is fine, again all but the steepest & rockiest DH.

    I will be taking the HD to Grafton and Boulder Canyon next week. The only parts I may change are the tires, I have the 2.35 DTC Nevegals which have been just fine for all the riding I have done so far, even on wet roots and rocks. But with the fog it was getting muddy at Pacifica today, and this is where the Kenda's were coming up short.

    I am thinking of Ardent, Minion DHF/R, Rain Kings or Kaisers - any input is appreciated. I would like to get a 2.5 tire that will be good in the mud, but I can also use at N* next season. Is there such a tire?

  65. #65
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    I have never been to Whistler (hopefully next year).

    What are the differences between the black and double black trails? How technical are the blacks?

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by scepticshock
    I have never been to Whistler (hopefully next year).

    What are the differences between the black and double black trails? How technical are the blacks?
    This question always gets asked and there's no real way to answer it...

    My advice to you is... First, go to Whistler--because it's probably the best place in the world to ride your bike. Second, just ride everything. Stop (when there's nobody behind you) and scope things out if you're unsure of a feature/jump/drop. Third, have fun and never stop smiling.

    I've managed to stay out of this thread (and for good reason) until now.... but hopefully this help ya. Cheers!

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rb
    This question always gets asked and there's no real way to answer it...

    My advice to you is... First, go to Whistler--because it's probably the best place in the world to ride your bike. Second, just ride everything. Stop (when there's nobody behind you) and scope things out if you're unsure of a feature/jump/drop. Third, have fun and never stop smiling.

    I've managed to stay out of this thread (and for good reason) until now.... but hopefully this help ya. Cheers!
    HAHA! That video will NEVER get old.

    Great answer regarding Whistler. There's really no good way to describe it other than it's awesome and you need to go there.

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    Okay just got back from an hour long ride on the new whip and all I have to say is holy sh*t this bike rocks! I'm coming off of a nomad MKI 34lbs, Solo air Lyrik and dhx-air. Climbing the HD is a point and shoot bike, I've never experienced anything like it. I could not believe how fast I got the top of the mountain. On the downhills the bike is wicked too, although my setup helps (coil all around, short stem and wide bars). It's snappy, plush on both big and small hits, corners great and feels at home in the air. I'm still adjusting to the size in bike increase and downhill oriented setup (large nomad to x-large HD, and 70mm stem vs 50mm on HD, bar increase by 31mm). I purposely set the HD up to be more DH friendly due to some of the statements about it not being very good on the small bumps but this is by far the best AM ride I could ever imagine. I took this bike down a DH track, on some brutal climbs and then on some AM stuff with more flow. Overall it did it all just as well if not better then my nomad with two exception. I feel as though the HD does not have the same out of the saddle acceleration as the nomad. I attribute this more to the DW-Link suspension then anything but it is noticeable. My girlfriends giant reign also lacks the umff that the nomad possesses. The second thing is that the nomads front in feels more solid and tracks better most likely due to the full 1.5 head tube. Not that the HD doesn't track well its just doesn't inspire the same amount of confidence as the nomad when going through the gnar. I give the HD a 9/10 points. It will be replacing my nomad and overall I love the bike. Thinking on trying to tune my RC4 to help with the out of the saddle acceleration, buy we will see... has anyone else noticed this with DW compared to VPP?

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by drinkwat
    ... The second thing is that the nomads front in feels more solid and tracks better most likely due to the full 1.5 head tube. Not that the HD doesn't track well its just doesn't inspire the same amount of confidence as the nomad when going through the gnar. I give the HD a 9/10 points. It will be replacing my nomad and overall I love the bike. Thinking on trying to tune my RC4 to help with the out of the saddle acceleration, buy we will see... has anyone else noticed this with DW compared to VPP?
    Yes, the first gen VPP does have a much more hard platform standing pedaling feel, IMO. It has a very different rate of anti-squat, nearly opposite to DWL. Looking down while standing and climbing up pavement on first gen VPP does show visible center frame and rear suspension rise initially with each down stroke in the middle ring (and granny), they seemed to be more optimized for big ring climbing.

    The Gen 2 Nomad and other VPP's aren't as firm underfoot when standing and pedaling, but still more than a DWL.

    DWL's feel balanced, almost no squat or jack when standing and accelerating for a short burst up to speed, but prolonged steady speed standing and climbing does show nearly as much bob as most others such as Horst Link types without a firm platform shock.

    Regarding the front end stiffness using the same fork and wheel, such a much wider handlebar would flex more unless it's a lot heavier too. I can feel that metal frames do transfer more lateral feedback. It's been long said that carbon fiber frames feel more damped while riding when having about the same flex as metal. Sounds like quite a handing change was made too, tracking with much wider bars and longer frame should feel slower and less responsive, and something to get used to in trade off for other advantages.

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    "DWL's feel balanced, almost no squat or jack when standing and accelerating for a short burst up to speed, but prolonged steady speed standing and climbing does show nearly as much bob as most others such as Horst Link types without a firm platform shock."

    So are you saying that with an air shock such as the RP23 the HD would not have as much bob? I found that when seated (which is how I do most of my climbing) the HD was far superior to any other bike I've ever ridden. With regards to the acceleration, I noticed it more on short burst trying to get up to speed. On the nomad it took less effort and time to achieve a desired speed than on the HD. The 2nd generation VPP's that i've ridden feel even more stiff underfoot then the 1st generation and a hell of a lot stiffer compared to the HD.

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