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  1. #1
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    36/160 mm Fork on Classic or SL questions (including front 650b query)

    As I contemplate a future HD while riding my classic Mojo, currently w/ 2011 32 Talas 150 & 650b on front (26" on rear), I'm wondering if anyone out there has gone to a 36 Talas 160 (or similar) on a classic or SL Mojo; and if there's also 650b on front with the 36/160 fork, I'd esp. like to hear about that.

    I'm wondering if the 36 makes a huge difference on SL or Classic, now that I see the SL has the 36/160 fork option avail. in one of its builds (originally the Mojo was only recommended for 130-150 travel fork.) I keep thinking, as I fly down the granite rocks and roots here in SW NH, that a 36/160 would be a much cheaper, yet excellent, option as opposed to buying an HD 160 outright. Not to mention a couple pounds lighter - I do a lot of climbing so those extra 3 or 4 pounds on HD sounds like a lot (ww I am.)

    I really like the slight increase in slack the 650b gave the Mojo (which had further increased a couple years ago when I first went from 140 to 150 fork), not to mention the downhill technical advantage of bigger front rotation.) So another question is whether 10 more mm of travel in going to 160 fork with the 650b would be too much slack? I definitely would like the increased stability of a 36 over a 32.

    If I got an HD 160, I'd still want 650b on front, so that same question begs.

    The complaint that one hears about rear flex on Mojo never really bothered me, esp. after the Lopes link came out, although I'd probably notice it right away if I actually rode an HD. Anyway, hoping someone out there can answer these questions. My Mojo just turned 4 years old, and I've loved every second of it - I estimate I've got around 3000 hours on it (the only original parts are my Formula Oro brakes, XTR cranks & XTR shifters.)

    thanks in advance for thoughts & comments

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    There are quite few 160mm 36s out there. I have a 36 Talas (2008?) on my Mojo classic and l'm loving it in SE CT. I bought ecibis's bike; if you search around you'll find a few of his posts about it.

    My gut feeling is that the 36 with the 650b will be too slack for all-around riding. The A-C difference between the 150mm and 160mm Fox forks is closer to 25mm. I think a 160mm fork with 26" wheels puts my headtube angle at 67.5 degrees. Add a 650b wheel to that and I'm guessing it will fall closer to 66 degrees (guessing. no math right now).

    I have no experience with 650b or the HD.

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    Iíve had a size XL Mojo Carbon with a Fox 36 Talas for two and a half years with absolutely zero problems. I ride that thing about 150 days per year. I like the torsional stiffness of the 20mm front axle and over sized fork stanchions and beefy crown. Anything less would probably twist and allow brake steer. My fork vintage has three height settings, 100-130-160mm. The mid position has the same A-C distance as a 140mm fork. I use all three settings on every ride, itís like having three different bikes.

    Cheers,
    -S

  4. #4
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    I've done both and love them both
    1 Ibis Mojo carbon classic with Duc32 26er



    2 Ibis Mojo Duc32 650b front



    3 Mojo with Magura Wotan 160mm 26er


    The lightest set up is obviously the first one but the most fun is a toss up between 2 and 3 as both offer stability and bottomless fun. Although, both run the front a bit higher but it only takes a few rides to get used to it. Both set up didn't bother me on the climb at all. Bigger fork and more travel is fun but you'd pay a bit on the weight.

    If you are a WW, DUC32 is an excellent fork for the Classic. It's a light weight 6" fork that can be easily tune, and converted to just about any wheel size you want. It does required a 24mm hub I9, Kings, Hope, and Maverick makes them.

    If you do get HD you'd have it all, IMO. 140, 160, 650b front or f/r. what a fun bike it would be, I'm waiting for mine.


  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by mimi1885
    I've done both and love them both.
    thanks for that, nice bikes! - so the DUC32 is a 32 mm/150 travel fork with the 650b ? I'm wondering specifically about 160 mm travel with 650b on front - if that won't be too much A-C distance, and too much slack. Already I do like my 150 travel w/650b a lot.

    btw - where's that last drop/roll photo from - looks familiar like central coast California?

  6. #6
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    I have a Mojo with a Lyrik u-turn and run it at 160 full time. It's pretty common to have a 160 fork on a Mojo....nothing new. These are old pix and there's some changes to the bike that I've made since then, but for purposes of this thread, they should be fine.



    Uploaded with ImageShack.us



    Uploaded with ImageShack.us

    My guess and it's a complete shot in the dark is that a 36 w/ a 650b on a Mojo HD would be too slack, BUT you can run an HD with a 180 fork which would slack out the HD to a ~66 degree head angle. A 650b front wheel w/ a 36 should slack it out even more than that correct?

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by ddraewwg
    ... A 650b front wheel w/ a 36 should slack it out even more than that correct?
    Yes, a 650b front-only raises the axle 1/2 inch over he same size 26 inch tire. Also added steering-trail from the larger radius wheel slows steering further. 650b front-only changes steering and handling like adding 20mm to front travel using a 26 inch wheel. BB height increase is minimal, about 3/16th inch doing 650b front only.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by derby
    Yes, a 650b front-only raises the axle 1/2 inch over he same size 26 inch tire. Also added steering-trail from the larger radius wheel slows steering further. 650b front-only changes steering and handling like adding 20mm to front travel using a 26 inch wheel. BB height increase is minimal, about 3/16th inch doing 650b front only.
    So riding characteristics aside, would a 180 be more/less slack than a 160 w/ a 650b wheel? Seems to me that you're saying a 650b with a 36 is going to be LESS slack.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ddraewwg
    So riding characteristics aside, would a 180 be more/less slack than a 160 w/ a 650b wheel? Seems to me that you're saying a 650b with a 36 is going to be LESS slack.
    you bring up a good point - I hadn't consider comparing 650b/160 to a 26"/180, if that's what you mean (it wouldn't matter for this discussion whether 32 or 36 - of course the 36 is stiffer and heavier.) I don't know - sounds like the 26"/180 would be more slack; I was surprised to read zef95's, "The A-C difference between the 150mm and 160mm Fox forks is closer to 25mm" -- that's more than I'd of imagined.

    If we can get the actual A-C measurements from each fork, we should be able to mathematically calculate the slack angle change, and no longer have to guess.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by rshalit
    you bring up a good point - I hadn't consider comparing 650b/160 to a 26"/180, if that's what you mean (it wouldn't matter for this discussion whether 32 or 36 - of course the 36 is stiffer and heavier.) I don't know - sounds like the 26"/180 would be more slack; I was surprised to read zef95's, "The A-C difference between the 150mm and 160mm Fox forks is closer to 25mm" -- that's more than I'd of imagined.

    If we can get the actual A-C measurements from each fork, we should be able to mathematically calculate the slack angle change, and no longer have to guess.
    Yeah, I brought it up because the HD is fine with a 180 which would mean that any set up that would be as slack as a 180 should be fine from a geo standpoint anyways. Again, riding characteristics aside. From what Derby said, it seems that a 650b does NOT raise (meaning slack out) the front end as much as a 180 would so you should be fine.

  11. #11
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    (I had missed this when posting the previous response)

    Derby, it sounds like you're stating that the 26"/180 would give the same slack angle as 650b/160 on an HD, and therefore similar climbing handling characteristics?

    I haven't seen anyone mention climbing with a 180 on an HD, in fact, haven't seem much at all on HD with a 180.

    Quote Originally Posted by derby
    Yes, a 650b front-only raises the axle 1/2 inch over he same size 26 inch tire. Also added steering-trail from the larger radius wheel slows steering further. 650b front-only changes steering and handling like adding 20mm to front travel using a 26 inch wheel. BB height increase is minimal, about 3/16th inch doing 650b front only.

  12. #12
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    Rshalit, first off Mojo still climb well even with slack angle. Steep climb did not present problems for me even some extended climb. When the grade get steep, most bikes front would wander anyways. It may flop a bit but to me it happens to steeper HA Mojo ti, as well as Mojo carbon. I just learn to not let it bother me.

    Even Duc32 on both my Mojo I install a 7mm Ventana race, ti slacken the HA a bit as well. OP, does your 36 has TALAS? It can steepen the HA a bit on long climb. Short tech climb the slack Ha kinda fit my style of riding I can loft the front up and over stuffs.

    On the descend there's just unbelievably stable, the lower bb and slack HA just plain awesome. If you are more XC you may not like it (as much) but since you are considering HD I don't think it would be much to compensate, I'm sure the first descend would be well worth it.


  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by rshalit
    (I had missed this when posting the previous response)

    Derby, it sounds like you're stating that the 26"/180 would give the same slack angle as 650b/160 on an HD, and therefore similar climbing handling characteristics?

    I haven't seen anyone mention climbing with a 180 on an HD, in fact, haven't seem much at all on HD with a 180.
    650b front-only slacks the frame 1/2 degree, by raising the axle 1/2 inch. The steering trail (the tire patch flop behind the head angle) increase is about the same as slacking the frame 1 degree with a 26 inch wheel.

    Comparing 160 and 180 travel, the 650b on a 160mm travel fork steers like a 26" wheel on a 180 fork with half the frame slack difference. So it is not the same, climbing is easier to balance with 650b using a 160 fork than 180 with 26" wheels on the same bike. The bigger wheels hits bumps smoother, more so at lower speeds, and rolling ease and traction is increased, more so in comparison when the trail is looser. Landing jumps front wheel first on smooth surface would be more forgiving with greater travel than a bigger wheel with less travel.

    I hope to have an HD to experiment with 650b someday. 650b works great on the C and SL.

  14. #14
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    steering trail; ZTR 355 650b

    thanks - that really pretty much answers my question, at least theoretically. How did you learn all this? (Knowledge envious.) Still not certain I understand "steering trail" definition - can you try again?

    Anyway, sounds like it would definitely be advantageous to put a 36/160 Talas on my classic Mojo, see if it satisfies my craving for HD....thoughts to self: I now have both a 2010 & a 2011 32 Talas 150 RLC (15 mm hub).... I'd need a new 650b wheel with 20 mm hub for a 160 Talas...could sell my spare, rebuilt 2010 Talas.... Stan's discontinued the 650b ZTR 355 & the 650b ZTR Flow isn't out yet.

    I wonder why Stan's discontinued ZTR 355 650b? I've been riding it hard for 6 months w/no problems (it's significantly lighter than the Flow.)

    Quote Originally Posted by derby
    The steering trail (the tire patch flop behind the head angle) increase is about the same as slacking the frame 1 degree with a 26 inch wheel.

  15. #15
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    mimi1885 - so where is that last set of photos from?

  16. #16
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    Steering trail

    "Trail" is the measurement from the center of the tire contact patch (or stated another way, the point where a vertical line intersecting the axle hits the ground) to the point where the steering axis of the fork intersects the ground. It's why "casters" work (like the front wheel on a shopping cart).... it's also why forks have offset....to reduce and tune the amount of trail. A lot of trail = more self-centering, stable feeling steering.... Less trail = less self-centering, more nimble feeling steering. It's also why looking at head angle alone can tell you only so much about how a bike's going to feel. All else equal, going to a bigger wheel increases trail, and the same could be said of slacking out the head angle by going to a longer A-C fork.

    I changed from a Fox 32/140 w/ 26" to a Revelation 140 (longer A-C) w/ 650b (bigger wheel) and the change in handling feel would have been more dramatic, except for the fact that the Rev also has more offset, which pushes the axle/contact patch forward and mitigates the increase in trail..... kept the handling super sweet...better actually, IMO.

    Sorry....don't mean to steal your thunder Derby.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by mimi1885
    I've done both and love them both
    1 Ibis Mojo carbon classic with Duc32 26er



    2 Ibis Mojo Duc32 650b front



    3 Mojo with Magura Wotan 160mm 26er


    The lightest set up is obviously the first one but the most fun is a toss up between 2 and 3 as both offer stability and bottomless fun. Although, both run the front a bit higher but it only takes a few rides to get used to it. Both set up didn't bother me on the climb at all. Bigger fork and more travel is fun but you'd pay a bit on the weight.

    If you are a WW, DUC32 is an excellent fork for the Classic. It's a light weight 6" fork that can be easily tune, and converted to just about any wheel size you want. It does required a 24mm hub I9, Kings, Hope, and Maverick makes them.

    If you do get HD you'd have it all, IMO. 140, 160, 650b front or f/r. what a fun bike it would be, I'm waiting for mine.

    Mimi,
    I like that you found a way to slacken out the head angle a bit with the Ventana 7mm spacer. I currently have a DUC32 and love it for most riding except when things get steep and rocky. It sounds like you have experience with other big forks as well. I was thinking of changing my forks to either a lyric or 36. How do you think the DUC compares to those? Big difference? Will that 7mm spacer make a big enough difference if I keep my Duc32?
    Very cool bikes you have! Must be tough decision each day trying to figure out which one you want to ride.

    Thanks,
    cmb

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    thanks - so just to "tune" my understanding, the only disadvantage I've noticed with my 650b on front of Mojo with 32 Talas 150 is when I'm forced into a slow, technical climb (say narrow tread w/ rocks and roots) with turns spaced really closely, which I compensate for by lowering my fork to 120 mm? I see that the 2011 36 Talas 160 drops to 120 mm also, so although there is the longer A/C distance with the 160 the handling characteristics with a 160 vs 150 fork & 650b should be about the same (and is the 160 Talas really 25 mm longer in A/C distance than the 150, as "zef95" states earlier in thread - that's a 2.5 cm to gain only 1 cm travel?)
    One other related quest, as I consider purchasing 36 Talas 160 for my Classic Mojo, I am assuming that the 160 crown bottom will clear a 650b 2.35 Nevegal tire just fine, as my Talas 150 crown does [by a dime's width, mind you, when fully compressed by letting every last molecule of air possible out. And never mind the time I forgot to raise my Talas back up to 150 from 120 at the top of a climb, caught some nice air on the way down, landing sweetly (I momentarily thought) on my 650b front tire...and sheeeee---t! WHAT'S THAT NOISE?! why...that's the sound of the knobs grinding on the crown bottom (sung to the tune of Otis Redding's classic....)]

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by rshalit
    mimi1885 - so where is that last set of photos from?
    If your question is about the location, it's Turnbull cyn

  20. #20
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    According to this thread,....
    http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=470024
    yes, you would still have a 25mm long a-c on the 36 fork, so even in 120 mode you would have an inch higher front end relative to the 32/150 running in 120 mode..... will result in roughly 1 degree slacker HA relative to the 32. What will the change in steering trail and overall feel be????? I dunno, but would guess that the 36 forks might also have more offset in addition to great A-C to complement the typically slacker head angles on big travel bikes....and if so, that would help maintain a bit more nimble feel than if the offsets were the same. But I'm just guessing here, so you should search Fox's tech data and you'll probably find that info if you're interested.
    I think all the 650b / Fox 36 clearance reports are good, no problem, but would be worth double checking the 650b fork compatibility thread.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbbiker
    Mimi,
    I like that you found a way to slacken out the head angle a bit with the Ventana 7mm spacer. I currently have a DUC32 and love it for most riding except when things get steep and rocky. It sounds like you have experience with other big forks as well. I was thinking of changing my forks to either a lyric or 36. How do you think the DUC compares to those? Big difference? Will that 7mm spacer make a big enough difference if I keep my Duc32?
    Very cool bikes you have! Must be tough decision each day trying to figure out which one you want to ride.

    Thanks,
    cmb
    OP hope it's ok with you.
    First off, what stem are you running on Duc32. Is it fix or the Adj one? getting shorter and/or higher stem would change the descending personality quite a bit on Duc32.

    Duc32 is a very light and versatile fork that can do 26", 650b, 29er, it's stiff as hell too. Not as much torsional, but I don't run in to that problem riding though. I agree it's pretty low AC for a dual crown. Like the Mojo for it's weight, it's a remarkable fork when it comes to stiffness, plushness, and performance.

    If you have Duc32 and like the weight it's going to take some search to find one at the weight and travel. The fork weight 3.52lbs, crown weigh 0.31lb. I try to weight components before I put them on, some times my excitement gets the better of me and just went straight to installation, by that time I'd be too lazy to take it out and put in on the scale and document it.

    Lyrik, 36, and Wotan are in the 6lbs range actual weight with axle. My Wotan weight 5.5lbs but with axle it's 5.93, similar with 36 and Lyrik.

    I have never put the Lyrik on my Mojo but rode it on a few other bike including my Moment. I love the fork it has more knobs and adjustment than my entire bike components combine If you are into dialing the fork exact the way you want on every given trail or your mood for that matter, Lyrik is your answer, what a fork!

    Fox 36 is a good standard for AM fork, It was on my Med Mojo(green) for a brief period. The TALAS started acting up a bit and it feel similar to the action of Duc32 with 2lbs additional weight, plus the Pushed did not offer the service on 36 at the time, so I went back to Duc32. If I'd had the 36 pushed, it'd still be on my bike for sure.

    Magura Wotan is my favorite fork for sure. It's by far the stiffest fork I've put on any of my bikes. It's stiff every where. Minimum 8" rotor is really cool too just put the PM caliper on and center the pad and done. No squealing at all, I've had some flexing problem when putting 8" rotor with adapter in the past.

    Another cool feature about the Wotan is the travel adj, when you drop the travel from 160-120mm it's noticeably plusher due to the increase in negative air. It comes in really handy on the technical climb, lower, plusher, shorter travel to absorb the bumps. I can always flip the PP to firm it up if I want to stand up and mash. If you must change give Wotan a look, you may like it.

    When comparing bigger/heavier fork to lighter one at the same travel, of course something gotta give. I've tried 6" fork at the same weight as Duc32 but didn't like the quality travel, and stiffness. I would not give up the Duc32, a $15 Ventana race may help you out a bit, I'd check your stem rise/ length too. Hope this help

  22. #22
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    mimi,

    Thanks for the detailed answer I've got the stock 70mm stem on. I'm going to try the 7mm Ventana spacer. I need a new headset because my old one is shot, so I'll get the Cane Creek 110 IS with the tall spacer. This should slacken my head angle a bit and the taller spacer from the 110 IS should put my bars slightly higher as well, putting me in a more aggressive downhill position. That'll be a lot cheaper then buyer a new fork and wheel.


    Quote Originally Posted by mimi1885
    OP hope it's ok with you.
    First off, what stem are you running on Duc32. Is it fix or the Adj one? getting shorter and/or higher stem would change the descending personality quite a bit on Duc32.

    Duc32 is a very light and versatile fork that can do 26", 650b, 29er, it's stiff as hell too. Not as much torsional, but I don't run in to that problem riding though. I agree it's pretty low AC for a dual crown. Like the Mojo for it's weight, it's a remarkable fork when it comes to stiffness, plushness, and performance.

    If you have Duc32 and like the weight it's going to take some search to find one at the weight and travel. The fork weight 3.52lbs, crown weigh 0.31lb. I try to weight components before I put them on, some times my excitement gets the better of me and just went straight to installation, by that time I'd be too lazy to take it out and put in on the scale and document it.

    Lyrik, 36, and Wotan are in the 6lbs range actual weight with axle. My Wotan weight 5.5lbs but with axle it's 5.93, similar with 36 and Lyrik.

    I have never put the Lyrik on my Mojo but rode it on a few other bike including my Moment. I love the fork it has more knobs and adjustment than my entire bike components combine If you are into dialing the fork exact the way you want on every given trail or your mood for that matter, Lyrik is your answer, what a fork!

    Fox 36 is a good standard for AM fork, It was on my Med Mojo(green) for a brief period. The TALAS started acting up a bit and it feel similar to the action of Duc32 with 2lbs additional weight, plus the Pushed did not offer the service on 36 at the time, so I went back to Duc32. If I'd had the 36 pushed, it'd still be on my bike for sure.

    Magura Wotan is my favorite fork for sure. It's by far the stiffest fork I've put on any of my bikes. It's stiff every where. Minimum 8" rotor is really cool too just put the PM caliper on and center the pad and done. No squealing at all, I've had some flexing problem when putting 8" rotor with adapter in the past.

    Another cool feature about the Wotan is the travel adj, when you drop the travel from 160-120mm it's noticeably plusher due to the increase in negative air. It comes in really handy on the technical climb, lower, plusher, shorter travel to absorb the bumps. I can always flip the PP to firm it up if I want to stand up and mash. If you must change give Wotan a look, you may like it.

    When comparing bigger/heavier fork to lighter one at the same travel, of course something gotta give. I've tried 6" fork at the same weight as Duc32 but didn't like the quality travel, and stiffness. I would not give up the Duc32, a $15 Ventana race may help you out a bit, I'd check your stem rise/ length too. Hope this help

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbbiker
    mimi,

    Thanks for the detailed answer I've got the stock 70mm stem on. I'm going to try the 7mm Ventana spacer. I need a new headset because my old one is shot, so I'll get the Cane Creek 110 IS with the tall spacer. This should slacken my head angle a bit and the taller spacer from the 110 IS should put my bars slightly higher as well, putting me in a more aggressive downhill position. That'll be a lot cheaper then buyer a new fork and wheel.
    One of the good thing l like about the CC110( No, not the warranty), is that they come with both stack. It's quite convenience to swap out the top for different look, if your bike fit both of course.

  24. #24
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    This is the exact thread I've been looking for. I just bought a 2011 mojo sl and thought it was by far the most amazing bike I've ever rode.... until i demoed an HD about a week later. So now I'm kicking myself-- after three years of single speeding and saving money, I spent $4000 on the wrong bike. So I've owned the SL for a couple of weeks, now, and my 36 talas is on it's way. I'm hoping that it's the perfect compromise between the SL and the HD. I hope that I like it better than the HD....

    Already thinking about how I can sell the SL and buy an HD asap without a major financial loss.....
    Anyone want to buy an XT Mojo SL w/ reverb seapost for $3900? Only forty miles on it ....

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    sell the SL

    forgetaboutit - it won't be a "perfect compromise" - a 36/160 fork is only one part of the perfectly integrated HD ride - your SL will still just be an SL with a stiffer front end & slightly different slack angle. There are many other differences between the bikes, from BB height, slack angle, stiffness of linkages & frame - if you compare the geometries you'll see that the only measurement that is the same between the SL & HD is seat tube length - they are simply completely different bikes. In denial, I avoided demoing an HD for an entire year because I knew I was going to have to buy one. Now my ccMojo with its 150 Kashima Talas & 650b/front sits on a rack in my garage along with Pugsley.

    Quote Originally Posted by circlesuponcircles
    I'm hoping that it's the perfect compromise between the SL and the HD. I hope that I like it better than the HD.... sell the SL and buy an HD asap.....

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbbiker View Post
    mimi,

    Thanks for the detailed answer I've got the stock 70mm stem on. I'm going to try the 7mm Ventana spacer. ....
    This is something interesting! Will this spacer fit 1"1/8 forks only or it is available also for tapered ones?

    Thanks

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