Open Letter to Haro Bicycles- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Open Letter to Haro Bicycles

    I have purchased Haro Xeon VL160 frame from a dealer whom YOU authorized to sell these frames, greenfishsports.com. These frames suffer from a serious design flaw. One of your local Haro dealer confirmed the design flaw. A second authorized dealer of yours confirmed the issues as well.

    4 Weeks ago – I got Haro Xeon from Greenfish and noticed that the front and rear triangles are misaligned: https://forums.mtbr.com/haro/haro-virtual-link-frame-discussion-193111-6.html

    Pat from Haro suggested that I perform a frame “adjustment”. He suggested to loosen up the bottom linkage and slide the rear triangle against the front until the frame is aligned. Whatever I did, this was impossible and I told him that I will experience with this and let him know. The reason why it wasn’t possible was the fact that the upper linkage was still keeping the frameset in place!

    This advise was little bit odd for two reasons:
    1) I was unable to move the triangle to the side as instructed no matter what I did or how hard I was pushing. You would say that this is a good thing, right? But how do you align the frame now?
    2) What kind of design is this where positions of front and rear triangle are not exactly defined?

    I called Pat again and he suggested to do the same with the upper linkage. This did not work either.

    3 Weeks ago - I have found this solution:

    https://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php...&postcount=133

    I thought this is it but I was naive. How is it possible that the bearings were not tight in the linkage in the fist place? How is it possible that they were pulled out of the linkage when the linkage assembly was assembled? The answer is called, bad design.

    2 Weeks ago – I learned so much about the frame by taking it completely apart and putting it back together. Well this is 2 weeks of tweaking with the frame a monkey would learn in such a long time and I started to have serious doubts and I asked:

    https://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php...&postcount=136

    The response was, hmm, rather how to say it, wrong:

    https://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php...&postcount=137

    “Pressure on the links keep the bearings in place. If they were installed the way you describe, they would pull out.”

    There isn’t much pressure, the small rounded strut with two bolts just won’t cut it and especially since it is too long. Also it is the bolts and not the links that keep the bearings in place. So I asked again:

    https://forums.mtbr.com/haro/mechanical-question-xeon-vl160-334646.html

    9/6/07 – I spoke to Greenfish and they confirmed that I am not the first customer heaving these issues. Stephan from GF told me that there is a new linkage which will fix the issue. He had no details as far as what is difference between my linkage and this other one.
    I spoke to Pat as well and he conformed that they shipped Greenfish with faulty linkage and that he will send me a new one on Friday. It wasn’t Friday but it was the next Tuesday! I asked him the next week when I am suppose to get it. The response was any day soon. Pat forgot to mention that it was shipped 4 days later than expected. Well not a big deal but it was missing group rides and still be in doubts all this time.

    So, knowing the truth from GF and Pat I posted this update:

    9/6/07, a note added: If you need to follow this to fix the issue it is likely that your linkage is faulty.

    …and Jill just exploded!!!

    https://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php...&postcount=139

    ….but there is a little twist to it…there is this kid wanting to get the frame from GF as well. We exchanged many PMs and I spent quite some time helping him finding components to build Xeon. On the end, I told him what the issue was with the frame, and what I think about the fact that both Haro and GF knows yet they did not prevent from selling faulty bike. This kid did not wait a minute and PMed Jill that I talk to people not to buy Haro products. What I lie! I was still proud to own Xeon and I even PMed im proudly a link to my Xeon in the gallery!!!! I PMed him back and told him to apologize to me and to Haro for his tribe mistake. His response is here:

    [QUOTE=drakan] Sorry dude, but you came off as trying to convince me to look elsewhere.. Misconception on my part...
    I thought it would be nice to tell haro bikes that someone was convincing other people not to buy one of their frames, because of manufacturing errors that never happened...” [QUOTE]

    Drakan, is this also BS or this is the truth and the rest is BS? I am getting confused by you.

    Lesson learned, never ever let strangers to get too close to you!

    I PMed Jill and apologized for what has happened.

    I removed that ‘faulty’ that caused Jill to explode and some time before or after I added:

    9/10/07, a note added: If you need to follow this to fix the issue it is likely that the linkage strut / brace is too long. I am getting a new one from Haro.

    1 Week ago – Jill was wrong in every sentence she wrote…I guess that is what she believed in or wanted it to be such:

    https://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php...&postcount=142

    She used “bending over backwards”. Is that the few PMs with Pat, couple of phone calls and the new linkage assembly?

    I tried to iron it out: https://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php...&postcount=143
    But I was still very frustrated and I started to have stronger and stronger doubts abut the whole situation.

    This week - I got the linkage! What a disappointment! The strut is the same length as the old one. What was it that Pat and Jill was talking about?! Read about 3 frame sets here:
    https://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php...&postcount=139
    This is not my case at all!

    I PMed Pat and he suggested that I use the strut which I made (1 mm shorter) with the new linkage. DIY on a high end frame, that can’t be true?!

    When I mounted the new linkage with the long bolt on the bottom the discovery was devastating and confirmed my worst doubts. The linkage did not align with the rear triangle. The rear triangle was too narrow on each side by 3-4mm on each side. Notice the large gap:

    The left link, click me:
    <a href="https://gallery.mtbr.com/showphoto.php/photo/127658/size/big/cat/1169"><img title="Xeon Suspension Linkage" src="https://gallery.mtbr.com/data/mtbr/1169/medium/01010003sm.jpg" alt="Xeon Suspension Linkage" border="0" height="599" width="261"></a>
    The right link, click me:
    <a href="https://gallery.mtbr.com/showphoto.php/photo/127657/size/big/cat/1169"><img title="Xeon Suspension Linkage" src="https://gallery.mtbr.com/data/mtbr/1169/medium/01010005sm.jpg" alt="Xeon Suspension Linkage" border="0" height="599" width="600"></a>
    Bearing planes are not parallel with the brace plane. Notice the widening gap at the brace plate:
    <img title="Xeon Suspension Linkage" src="https://gallery.mtbr.com/data/mtbr/1169/01010026sm.jpg" alt="Xeon Suspension Linkage" border="0" height="600" width="354">
    Click me:
    <a href="https://gallery.mtbr.com/showphoto.php/photo/127703/size/big/cat/1169"><img title="Xeon Suspension Linkage" src="https://gallery.mtbr.com/data/mtbr/1169/medium/01010001sm.jpg" alt="Xeon Suspension Linkage" border="0" height="169" width="599"></a>

    I told Pat and Jill that this is not the solution. The response from Pat was to take your frame back to GF for their inspection.

    GF told me to ship it back and once they inspect it yada yada yada….we agreed that I first take it to a local authorized Haro dealer.

    9/19 - So I took it to this fellow, authorized Haro dealer: Bike Center, (314) 965-1444 12011 Manchester Saint Louis ,MO 63131. This fellow with vintage road bikes all over the wall, 40y in the industry my guess is, confirmed that this is not fixable unless they redesign the frame. He told me that the dealer should replace it with a similar or better frame.

    I called GF and they did not even want to talk to this fellow once I repeated what this fellow said. He called Haro and told them that they do not want this faulty frame so Haro arranged a fame pickup. Why wouldn’t Haro take the chance and talk to their authorized dealer is a mystery to me.

    As the authorized dealer advised me that I asked GF for a replacement and we made a deal. When I got home I got an email from Stephan that they will swap it for heavy duty DH frame with a coil shock. Nice try! The next frame was nice, but was 06 and kind of behind the current 06 model especially the shock. The catch was that I would have to pay additional $750. This was not acceptable so GF suggested talking to Haro and see what they can do.

    9/19 - I PMed Pat and Jill and ended up on the conference call (9/20) with bunch of Haro guys. They did not answer my question at all and Jill was full of crap like there is no issue, the bike was designed by the same guy who did SC frames, that it was tested by magazines yada yada yada. She was pretty arrogant and even told me that may be this bike is not for me and my be I should take it to ebay. Yes, I was rejecting the option of swapping for the same Xeon frame as it made no sense to me or Haro authorized dealer.

    She even challenged my open minding so I took her up to the challenge and agreed to go to a different Haro dealer to troubleshoot the issue with while Haro would be on call. I asked for her contact info and got the 800 number with Pat’s and her extension. I called the LBS and Pat and arranged the troubleshooting in about 30 minutes.

    Haro dealer details:
    West County Cycles
    355 Ozark Trail - Suite 5
    Ellisville, MO 63011
    Phone: 636-227-7266
    Fax: 636-227-3824

    9/20 - When I got to the LBS neither they not I were able to reach Haro, they were already closed! This was devastating! I almost got into the accident rushing there and they just went home?

    I spoke to some younger employee and he too realized that the frame doesn’t align with the linkage big time.. The same notice the other guy who later worked on my bike and later told this fact to Haro.

    Suddenly they got a call from Haro!!! My lucky day! The guy grabbed the bike with the linkage removed and the whole back just flew down hanging by the shock!!! Then he tried to put it together. I explain him that the goal is not to put it together so it would damage the frame but to troubleshoot the issue so it can be installed proeprly. He struggled for a good while with all the pieces from the upper linage and then he got Haro catalog and started steering at it. He clearly had no clue and never worked on such expensive bike.

    He told me that Haro told them to put it together and that is what he is going to do! I told him that if he do it the way he was about to do it he is going to pinch the bearings. He went and told Haro that the linkage doesn’t align and that I do not want him to pinch the bearings. He came back removed the bike and removed the frame from the stand and thrown it at me while I had two wrenches in one hand. The whole back flew down again with the linkage removed and he asked me to leave immediately without letting me to put the bike together. As the result the shifter cable was ripped out of the frame and dented.
    The other guy yelled at me too to leave because they were closing. I put all the pieces in my pocket and left dragging disabled bike.

    I got home and there was no PM or voice mail from Haro. This was it!

    The last PM that night was to Pat that I am going to do this what I am doing now. There is no response the next day which I do not understand has Haro’s good name was about to be challenged.

    I called the fellow from Bike Center and asked abut his conversation with Haro. The impression I had was that he did not want to be pulled into this mess. He is a small shop, has nothing to do with this, and depends on Haro. I was disappointed with his change in attitude but I respect it for the reasons stated. Jill claims that he did not want to argue with me are false, may be that is what he told her, I will never find out.

    The obvious reasons why I have refused another Xeon (it wouldn't solve the issue ), Sonic (different category), coiled DH frame, and another frame for additional $750 are obviously not obvious to Jill.

    I have missed my family for many evenings feeling miserable and they were directly impacted by this. I have missed many hours from work troubleshooting this in LBS, on the phone etc…I have invested hundreds of $$ into this bike which has a severe design flaw and some parts may or may not be reusable with a different frame. I have paid a LBS to chase BB shell due to some issues with threads on the frame. All this is the price I paid and still can’t ride! Yet, I was treated like an animal!

    There is no solution to this issue, no single apology from either GF or Haro not to mention the LBS, and no straight answer to my straight questions:

    - Why the upper linkage doesn’t align with the mouthing posts on the rear triangle.
    - Why am I suppose to use the modified strut? This is too expensive frame to do DIY stunts.
    - Why the lower linkage is so weak that the frame flexes badly to the sides pulling the bearings in and out of the linkage when pedaling?
    - Why all bearings are installed from inside of the linkage and the only thing that keeps the linkage in place is the tiny silver strut with two bolts only? At the very least two bearing should go from the other side.
    - How would the same frame with the same design Haro is willing to exchange fix this design flaw?
    - Why do you claim that I am one of the 3 frames where the strut was too long. I have got a new strut from you and it is the same length as the original one.
    - What prevents the linkage/bearings to be pulled apart by the forces when one pedal on the bike? Or when just pulled by hand?
    - What would prevent the long rear mouthing posts from bending while under pressure? Shouldn’t there be another strut?
    - What other major bike maker uses similar lower and upper linkage design?

    The bike will be disabled and frame returned to Bike Center (314) 965-1444 12011 Manchester Saint Louis ,MO 63131 on Monday for a pickup.

    And then there are going to be people who did not bother to read this but yet know the truth. These people perhaps never build a full suspension bike, or never saw such frame disassembled, and I am sure they never experienced Xeon. They will never understand that their defending style may have just an opposite effect. Saying that is just like throwing pearls to the pigs.

    These people are so far from the reality an so close to marketing pipes from TV sets, glossy magazines, and marketing managers in roles of customer support that they are no longer capable of making decisions for themselves. One guy who stands out from the crowd must be an idiot and nothing else matters.

    This guy was given an offer for a new frame, and he did not take it!!!!! He must be an idiot, no doubt! An the fact that the issue is not fixable unless Haro pays some serious $$$$$$ for a CNC work doesn't matter at all. Didn't I say that already, oh, you need to spend more time reading it than is a length of a TV commercial?, so you are not going to read it, I see.

    Xeon's linkage design will disappear in 2008 or 2009 line of products mark these words.

    9/21/2007
    Last edited by ozvena; 09-27-2007 at 06:08 AM.

  2. #2
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    Peter,

    I'm not even going to read this letter. I got half-way through it and there are so many false statements, I don't see the need to read further.

    I'm going to LOVE to hear what some of our readers have to say about PatSS and I being unknowledgeable. I guess I have held gainful employment in the cycling industry for the past 8 years just because I'm a nice person.

    There is nothing wrong with your frame. When you have multiple linkage points, and the these linkage points are loosened up to remove or service the rear shock, it is quite common the the frame to be "mis-aligned" as you say. It's more of a case where you just have to re-align the bolt holes to get the bolts to fit back into these holes correctly. That's not just with our frame, but any that uses a multiple linkage system.

    Because you are so convinced that there is something wrong with your frame, I offered to send you a new one and you refused it. Greenfish offered to trade your frame out with 2 different frames and you refused that. I offered to trade your frame out for another frame (like a Sonix or an X6) and you refused that. I asked what would make this situation "right" for you, and you didn't have an answer other than to say you wanted a similar frame in return. Geez, both Haro and Greenfish offered that up to you and you refused.

    There is NOTHING wrong with your linkage and how it is designed. Are you a mechanical engineer? And if you are, what's your experience with bicycle design? How are you qualified to tell us that our linkage is faulty when this bike (and the Sonix, which you say is faulty too) have both received rave magazine reviews? The dealer you say agreed that the linkage was faulty was merely agreeing with you because it was clear that you were convinced of that fact. He didn't want to argue with you.

    And as for the second dealer who tried to trouble shoot your bike, he did NOT tell us that the linkage wouldn't line up. He told us the bike was fine and that YOU didn't want the bike put together with the new linkage we sent you. Give me a break...what's the point? The whole idea was to install the new linkage we sent you. It seemed all you wanted this dealer to do is tell us you had a problem with the frame, and he didn't. He said your frame was fine. In the end, he said YOU took your bike home because you didn't want the link installed.

    Sorry Peter, I'm not going to apologize for this issue. We have bent over backwards trying to help you through numerous phone calls and e-mails. We have offered you new frames. You are trying to get us to admit there is some inherent problem with the linkage design of this frame. There is not, so there's nothing to admit.

    Like I have told you before. It is very important to me that people are happy with the bikes they purchase from us. However, in some cases, people will prefer another bike. That's OK with me. I think you might be happier with another brand of bike.

    Once Bike Center returns the frame (be sure to remove your rear shock too), we will send you a new Xeon frame. I am done dealing with you and this problem.

  3. #3
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    wow...

    I do agree if you were offered a new frame, you don't want it, get a diffrent bike. I ride hardtails, all those mojo jojo moving parts mean nothing to me so I wont comment on any of that.

  4. #4

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    it seems you judged it first without even riding it. don't judge a book by it cover dude. read a few pages first. or in this case, ride it for a few blocks!

    my family and friends had a few haro bikes over the years. The old haro masters (brothers'), the x6 (mine), the x6lt (friends), the x7 (friends) the escape(brother's). no issues ever! (except for the cable guide in the 06 x6 that always gets my knee, but fixed in the 07s!) it does what its supposed to do if i had the money i'd build up an escape just for me, i think i mentioned building one up for myself in the older threads...

    HARO is my vote for bang for the buck! good and reliable (based on my friends, family's, and own experiences)

  5. #5
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    I will not even respond to dude's post. I can only hope that this thread will die quickly.

    But this is why it is important to buy a bicycle from a real person. Not an internet site or someone on the other end of a phone. It all looks great on the computer screen. But stuff happens. That is when the price you paid for a bike at a shop pays off. Not saying anything disrespectful about Greenfish. But unless you are willing to ship things back and forth- don't complain.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by b.ray
    But this is why it is important to buy a bicycle from a real person. Not an internet site or someone on the other end of a phone. It all looks great on the computer screen. But stuff happens. That is when the price you paid for a bike at a shop pays off. Not saying anything disrespectful about Greenfish. But unless you are willing to ship things back and forth- don't complain.
    Amen.

  7. #7
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    There's nothing wrong with greenfish. I got my mary XC frame from them. Wish they were selling SS frames so I could get another one. Sounds like the retailer was perfectly willing to work with the guy too. This isn't the same guy that sawed through his chainstay with his chain because of "one" instance of chainsuck, is it?

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by downhilljill

    Sorry Peter, I'm not going to apologize for this issue. We have bent over backwards trying to help you through numerous phone calls and e-mails. We have offered you new frames. You are trying to get us to admit there is some inherent problem with the linkage design of this frame. There is not, so there's nothing to admit.

    Like I have told you before. It is very important to me that people are happy with the bikes they purchase from us. However, in some cases, people will prefer another bike. That's OK with me. I think you might be happier with another brand of bike.

    Once Bike Center returns the frame (be sure to remove your rear shock too), we will send you a new Xeon frame. I am done dealing with you and this problem.
    Jill, you and the other Haro folks work so hard during the week and spend a lot of time helping & communicating with Haro customers on this forum* that you shouldn't even read it on the weekends! It sounds like you folks, as usual, went way above and beyond for this customer and that's truly impressive. Keep up the great work Haro folks and don't let the bastids get you down.

    * More so than any other manufacturer forum I've seen.

  9. #9

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    HAHAHA I remember that post arkadi. That was hilarious.

    But in real life...haro does work hard for their customers. Go buy them a beer and get a new bike dude.

  10. #10

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    Can this post be flagged for deletion.

    Just awful.

  11. #11
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    Holy cow. It sounds like everybody except the consumer did their job on this one. FWIW, I've sat in on a couple of Haro sales meetings up here in Canada and those meetings, coupled with the effort Haro employees put into public forums like this one, were the main reasons I picked up my Sonix. I'm more than happy to support a company that believes so strongly in its product and really does its best to take care of all CS inquiries.

    And to the original poster, if I had been offered a new frame, I would've taken it in a heartbeat, esp. since you should know that Haro would've made absolutely sure that everything was ready to go.

    This whole thing looks and sounds like a terrible case of sour grapes on the part of someone who's not interested in listening to anyone other than themselves.

    Deletion in T minus...
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    Can this post be flagged for deletion.

    Just awful.
    I'm watching this thread. I don't believe it has crossed the line, yet.
    "It is the glory of God to conceal a matter; to search out a matter is the glory of kings."

  13. #13
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    Some people are lonely.
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  14. #14
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    Ozvena;

    You're clearly upset, but why not accept the offer of a new frame? Let Haro set it up factory perfect, and ride it. Maybe there actually is something wrong with your individual frame that the LBS wrench didn't see and you can't describe well enough on the phone, but the only way to find out is to get a new one- and they've offered that. Yeah, these are expensive machines, and they should come factory perfect, but every once in a while one gets through the net.
    A personal story with my Jamis- I was riding along and noticed it felt sloppy. I got off and there was all kinds of play in the rear triangle- back tire would move back and forth an 'oh, my Goodness' amount- there were spaces everywhere. I knew there was no design defect because it had been perfect- turns out play developed in the bearings/bushings from bolts loosening. If it had come like that, I too, might have looked at it and thought- defective.
    To the troll mobile, away...

  15. #15

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    Ease up on Haro and Jill!

    I stand in defense of Jill and Haro. They have gone to greater lengths than an company I know of in any industry to help a customer. In this day and age most companies don't care and their efforts here are most refreshing. At Haro, every bike and every rider counts! Thats obvious, despite knowing their design is not inferior or at fault they were still willing to help a customer, what other companies would go to this length??? I can't think of any.

    If anything, this shows all of us Haro riders that we made the right choice in terms of bike, geometry, design, quality control and support. By the way 2006 MTBR XC Bike of Year is no fluke, but reality. I am sure the people at MTBR magazine know a well designed bike when they see and ride one. They obviously don't see any design flaws either!

    "Haro, great bikes for today and tomorrow"
    Hey Jill, "This Buds for you"

    OC

  16. #16
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    Well I've not been this route with haro (only having built Werks series hardtail frames up) for full suspension I have gone thru the defective linkage routine with procycle's defunct Oryx brand (which was closed along with balfa and mikado to focus mid-high end efforts on the rocky mountain brand name three years ago). Basically they had a new for 2004 model called the Hurricane which was a single-pivot-linkage (aka faux bar) with 3-4-5" travel settings. The catalog picture which is what I ordered it based on was of a horst-link bike. What I got wasn't a horst-link bike. What I also got was discovering the linkage was missaligned in some manner (if you unbolted the shock from the upper links, and pulled it out the links instantly went wonky so one side was higher and twisted from the other side).

    Now if it was only MY frame you'd say just get it replaced but the following spring when I ended up wrenching at the dealer where I bought it, and they had all these clearout priced hurricanes and EVERY single one had the same issue, you quickly realize its a production wide defect (whether in design or assembly at the factory doesn't matter, its still a defect) and yes, you could ride the bike with the linkage that way perfectly well and no doubt had any magazines reviewed it they probably would have given it good reviews. So that part of the OP's story about Haro telling him about rave reviews doesn't mean they didn't have a production run frames with this defect just the same. Lots of frames can still ride well with defects in them. Hell Ellsworth frames always rode well with defects, right up until the point they broke and customers tried to get them to honour the lifetime warranty.

    In my case with my Oryx, when I did finally get an RA number on the frame and send it in, they had no non-defective Hurricane frame to replace it with that would have satisfied my requirements (of telling them NOT to just send me another hurricane unless they could guarantee the linkage wouldn't be messed up) and they had no other similar travel model (in my size, their freeride bike only went to an 18.5" and I ride around a 21") in their lineup and I inquired about getting a Rocky Mountain Element or ETSX frame instead (as its just another brand from the greater procycle entity) and they wanted $500 upcharge on the element and $1000 on the etsx. In the end they gave my dealer a couple credit options and I elected to accept the $675 credit option and used that with my dealer to get other parts/frames/trainer etc over the course of a few months.

    That was after 4 months of them having my Oryx frame mind you (sent it in in June 2006, got the credit in october) and having to have the dealer call them weekly and give them the RA# for it each and every time like they kept loosing track of it (or had so many hurricanes come back at the same time maybe).

    Maybe if Haro offered the guy a straight up credit with a haro dealer which he could use for other stuff or whatever he wanted he'd be happy and stop complaining.
    I don't post to generate business for myself or make like I'm better than sliced bread

  17. #17
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    Thanks for the support guys...you're the best!

    I really wanted to help Ozvena but he's gotta be open to being helped.

  18. #18
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    Oh as to the comment about <b>"it is quite common the the frame to be "mis-aligned" </b> that may be today with various medium sized brands all farming out production to overseas factories and then getting stuck with thousands of frames that were either to the correct tolerances or mis-aligned and having to sell them anyways. But it wasn't the case not long ago, and certainly not the case today for many boutique brands that hold to higher standards for tolerances. Until my Oryx, I had not personally encountered a multi-link suspension frame that was "mis-aligned" in the slightest and I've owned dozens from many different brands (Amp, Trek, KHS, Manitou, Mantis, GT, Specialized, Diamondback, K2, Raleigh, Rocky Mountain, Jamis, Barracuda, Kona, Eclipse, Devinci, etc). Now whether the Xeon got rave reviews or not for how it rides isn't denying that there was a alignment issue with the model's production run, and since you apparently couldn't guarantee a replacement frame wouldn't have this defect also for the guy, its no wonder he didn't take you up on the offer.
    I don't post to generate business for myself or make like I'm better than sliced bread

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeEight
    Oh as to the comment about <b>"it is quite common the the frame to be "mis-aligned" </b> that may be today with various medium sized brands all farming out production to overseas factories and then getting stuck with thousands of frames that were either to the correct tolerances or mis-aligned and having to sell them anyways. But it wasn't the case not long ago, and certainly not the case today for many boutique brands that hold to higher standards for tolerances. Until my Oryx, I had not personally encountered a multi-link suspension frame that was "mis-aligned" in the slightest and I've owned dozens from many different brands (Amp, Trek, KHS, Manitou, Mantis, GT, Specialized, Diamondback, K2, Raleigh, Rocky Mountain, Jamis, Barracuda, Kona, Eclipse, Devinci, etc). Now whether the Xeon got rave reviews or not for how it rides isn't denying that there was a alignment issue with the model's production run, and since you apparently couldn't guarantee a replacement frame wouldn't have this defect also for the guy, its no wonder he didn't take you up on the offer.
    The misalignment this guy likely had was simply due to getting the bolt holes lined up properly; it actually has nothing to do with anything on the frame itself being out of tolerance. You 3 identical frames from any manufacturer (USA or otherwise) and you'll find stuff is out of tolerance. We're talking about 2 seperate issues regarding this frame.

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    If you buy a mass produced product it comes from the factory pre bent. There are assembly line tolerances. These tolerances are usually never noticed unless you are a professional racer. In the moto industry the top teams send there bikes to the frame straightener right out of the crate. That Hummer it's bent to assembly line tolerances also. Ride on
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    Or someone expecting more for his X hundreds of dollars than such mis-alignments to be present in his frame. I saw the pictures in the other thread... the shock mount on the frame was wider than the eyelet reducer hardware for the shock allowed for. This sorta GLITCH doesn't surprise me in the slightest anymore. Rocky Mountain did that 2 years ago on the ETSX Team frames with the carbon rear ends. The linkages didn't fit into the carbon swingarm because the pivot mounts were off-tolerance by several mm in just terms of spacing width. Rocky at least didn't release any frames to the dealers until they made new swingarms to replace the defective ones (this delayed delivery till mid-summer though).
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    Quote Originally Posted by dogonfr
    If you buy a mass produced product it comes from the factory pre bent. There are assembly line tolerances. These tolerances are usually never noticed unless you are a professional racer. In the moto industry the top teams send there bikes to the frame straightener right out of the crate. That Hummer it's bent to assembly line tolerances also. Ride on
    Even handmade boutique frames are not 100%. Why? Because metals weld and cool relatively unpredictably. We have gotten it down, but there are always variations. They should be and most are, aligned on a jig in the factory. Even Litespeed, at their high prices, frequently leave the factory misaligned, while others make sure to either straighten or reject them.

    No frame should leave a factory misaligned. The equilibrium of forces can be shifted to a higher degree in these frames, leading to failure of the frame, shock, or bearings earlier.

  23. #23
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    I know about the shock failure from this "mis-alignment". Forcing stuff to line up so you can tighten the bolts (as I had to do with my Oryx) can definitely lead to the shock shaft seal failing prematurely and abruptly. To simply get the shock into my linkage to put it into the 3" travel mode could be done by using BOTH hands to pull the shock into place, with the bike clamped into a repair stand. But to get it to move further back into the 4" and 5" travel settings (too bar the OP was complaining about stuff being too loose, he should see what the other way does) required a mallet. This isn't the sort of tool one tends to carry on the trail. And your friends wonder why you bought brand X when you have to find a tree branch to lever your shock from the 5" to 4" setting, or a large rock to slam it back the other direction while out on a group ride. What I find amusing about situations like this, is that my Amp B-3, a frame not exactly known for being durable was perfectly aligned when it left the factory, and its been a breeze to maintain (and has outlasted several other full suspensions frames I've gone thru).
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  24. #24
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    Well, I need to toss in my un-sparable piece of mind. Haro has been great to me, and Jill has been even better. I know that I am not a mechanic or engineer so when I need something done on a bike, if I know I can't do it or don't have a full understanding, I seek out a professional. I have never had an issue like that, probably because I don't put myself in that position, translate being a know-it-all. You should have took Haro up on the replacement...live and learn....from others mistakes.....

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    Yeah, even former ellsworth owners had common sense enough to take their replacement frames and SELL THEM to try and recoup their money to go and switch brands. If the guy doesn't like Haro's treatment of him, just shut up, take the replacement frame and sell the thing. Then go buy a santa cruz or something.
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    This is also a open letter to Haro........ Haro, thank you for the super fast delivery of my Thread frame...... It was so easy to just call and a couple of days later wa-la we are back.

    We just purchased a 06 X-6 and a 06 X-7 from http://www.mtnmercantile.com/ and will soon buy another X-7 as soon as I sell my RM Switch. Mac at ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ is a awesome person you should really really keep your eye on Oakridge Oregon

    If it wasn't for your company making high-dependable-quality-affordable bikes many of us would beable to ride with the current exuberantly priced ones. Or we'd still be on hard tails.

    I've owned 2 RM Switches, Stinky Primo, Kona Stab, Spec BigHit and a RM Flow...... I now have 1 Switch and 3 Haros soon to be 4.

    I also know for a fact that if it wasn't for your support when we raced BMX for Jim Duke and Haro North West that many of the kids wouldn't of been riding great bikes and giving us the " Bro' " deal on the team gear.......

    I also want to thank Ozvena for "opening this letter" as we all know after reading his verbal diarreha and linking to just about every thread in the google search for haro... he has shown us all that he cant get the bolt in the hole .............

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by emptybeer
    I'm watching this thread. I don't believe it has crossed the line, yet.
    Yea- unfortunately you cannot silence someone on the internet just because they truly have no idea what they are talking about. It's there for everyone. No matter how retarded they are. Of course, I am not saying Oz is retarded. I am just saying- in general.

    BTW Oz- in regards to your PM- I am not as far from the issue as you would believe. I understand it much better than you do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by b.ray
    Yea- unfortunately you cannot silence someone on the internet just because they truly have no idea what they are talking about. It's there for everyone. No matter how retarded they are. Of course, I am not saying Oz is retarded. I am just saying- in general.

    BTW Oz- in regards to your PM- I am not as far from the issue as you would believe. I understand it much better than you do.
    Of course this thread makes me laugh because it reminds me of the early Ellsworth complaint threads before everyone figured out they really WERE prone to defects and Tony Ellsworth stopped posting in the forums because he'd been caught lying so often. Yet somehow when someone reports problems with other brands they get laughed at and everyone in the forum rushes to defend the company. When someone reports another ellsworth problem, everyone now rushes in with their "it happened to me also" stories.

    I myself haven't been interested in a Xeon but I have in a Sonix. I asked in this forum less than a year ago what the frame weight was and one of the haro honchos (probably Jill, I'd have to search for it to find out who exactly if anyone has a conniption over this) said the large frame would be 5.8 Ibs with shock. Recently between the canadian dollar basically hitting par with the US dollar and greenfish sports having sonix frames on sale, I've looked into them again. And greenfish reports the weight of the medium size Werks Sonix as 6.41 Ibs. Reminds me again of why I didn't buy an ETSX (rocky lies about frame weights claiming lower numbers than reality). Too bad since the colour goes with my Noleen forks and all greenfish has left are 20" size ones which is what I want.

    Aha found it... http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.ph...ht+vl120+frame

    5.8 given by emptybeer and then confirmed by jill.
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    Didn't read the linky but it allways amazes me when people want to know the weight of a bike designed to be abused. The main reason people on forums go to bat for a manufacture is because of some tool looking for attention. Aparently the last time the OP responded was to PM another poster on this post . Bikes are built for people to buy, they come with a warranty for a reason just like anything else out there. Except the hot cup of coffee that will burn your lip unless you let it cool off, Unless you live in Cali. Selling a bike to a whiner is allways a nightmare & you never know when that nightmare will strike.
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    DeeEight- Too bad that you are relying on ONE person's posts. Read the other opinions about the VL linkage. I have a Sonix. Riding it since about March. No complaints since I set it up properly which is a common theme in the posts. Great performance even w/ a Manitou Radium (which I still hope to upgrade).

    Rode a Xeon at interbike along with many other bikes this week (Ellsworth, Santa Cruz, Intense, Diamondback- all 4-6 inch travel bikes). I will be getting a Xeon also. While I love the Sonix, I am a chicken. Mo' travel equals mo' courage for me. I compensate for lack of skill w/ my bike selection.

    The issue here is that he bought the frame online. He did not have the support that you get at the LBS. Haro still has offered the consumer numerous options to make things right. Refer to DHJill's first reply. Oz wants Haro to say that there is something inherently wrong with the design. I can tell you from first hand experience that there is not. Stuff happens in the manufacturing process. That is what the LBS takes care of for the consumer.

    I would encourage you to visit your local Haro dealer and utilize the "Demo in a box" program before you judge. Haro believes in their product enough to let you ride before you buy. What more could you ask for?

    ANYTHING manufactured by humans is subject to defects. It boils down to the support that the manufacturer offers. I personally have a hard time believing that Tony Ellsworth doesn't stand behind his product. But as I don't have any firsthand experience with the issue, I will not comment further. You may be absolutely correct. But if you are seriously interested in the bike, take a trip to your Haro dealer.

    Oh, and in case anyone has figured it out, I'm a shop monkey that sells and rides Haros.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by drakan
    I read the whole thing. That is a load of slander and BS. Stop spewing crap out of your mouth, and learn to tell the truth. They sent you another linkage, they called you, they wrote you, they waited hand and foot on you, and you couldn't be pleased. Honestly, you don't DESERVE a haro bike. The company works so hard, and trust me on this one: It's not so they can get yelled at in the face, called arrogant, and be made fools of. Now, I suggest you take them up on a new frame, or else you can go take your bullcrap to another bike manufacturer.
    Guys, if you think I will let myself to be dragged to this dump you are wrong but I am open to an intelligent arguments which were not already covered by the first post. That means that I will not come here and explain again why I do not want another Xeon and repeat that I got support from two local authorized dealers (LBS) already or go to the details again just for the sake of arguing with you.

    If you want to keep piling here and calling me "ass" or "idiot" on PM you are free to do so...
    Last edited by ozvena; 09-27-2007 at 09:01 AM.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by b.ray
    DeeEight- Too bad that you are relying on ONE person's posts. Read the other opinions about the VL linkage. I have a Sonix. Riding it since about March. No complaints since I set it up properly which is a common theme in the posts. Great performance even w/ a Manitou Radium (which I still hope to upgrade).
    Why are you telling me that?!? I said I've owned other haros, I've said I'm interested in the sonix. I'm familiar with how the VL works. I know it doesn't need a platform shock to pedal well. I know the OP got a Xeon and not a Sonix. I'm not some newbie to the technology. I said I was asking about one a year ago.

    Rode a Xeon at interbike along with many other bikes this week (Ellsworth, Santa Cruz, Intense, Diamondback- all 4-6 inch travel bikes). I will be getting a Xeon also. While I love the Sonix, I am a chicken. Mo' travel equals mo' courage for me. I compensate for lack of skill w/ my bike selection.
    120mm is enough to make you a chicken ?!? Okkkkk......

    I would encourage you to visit your local Haro dealer and utilize the "Demo in a box" program before you judge. Haro believes in their product enough to let you ride before you buy. What more could you ask for?
    Useless option for me to demo something I'm already familiar with, besides the fact I don't buy complete bikes anymore. I buy frames and build to suit. If I do buy a full bike at once, its simply to strip it down to the frame and then build back up with my own parts. As a rule manufacturers are incompetent with component selections, picking stuff for curb appeal and hitting pricepoints. As such compromises are made which I'm not willing to put up with myself.
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  33. #33
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    As a rule manufacturers are incompetent with component selections, picking stuff for curb appeal and hitting pricepoints. As such compromises are made which I'm not willing to put up with myself.
    Now this is really interesting........ Yeah I got 2nd in the State of Oregon on a totally stock Haro SI 24. The bike weighed way more than the guys I raced and I still beat them then out jumped'em on the same bike at the DJs. Stock....

    Anyone remember or who grew up in So. Cal. and read the surfing mag Breakout way way back, there was a great pic of a guy standing str8 up on a 8' wave backside and the caption was....... "having been hitched to the beach without board or trunks this guy borrowed a board and hit it in his Levi's".

    You guys just go ride....... and Oz you brought this upon yourself, re-read you first post and then lets talk about piling it on

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeEight
    Of course this thread makes me laugh because it reminds me of the early Ellsworth complaint threads before everyone figured out they really WERE prone to defects and Tony Ellsworth stopped posting in the forums because he'd been caught lying so often. Yet somehow when someone reports problems with other brands they get laughed at and everyone in the forum rushes to defend the company. When someone reports another ellsworth problem, everyone now rushes in with their "it happened to me also" stories.

    I myself haven't been interested in a Xeon but I have in a Sonix. I asked in this forum less than a year ago what the frame weight was and one of the haro honchos (probably Jill, I'd have to search for it to find out who exactly if anyone has a conniption over this) said the large frame would be 5.8 Ibs with shock. Recently between the canadian dollar basically hitting par with the US dollar and greenfish sports having sonix frames on sale, I've looked into them again. And greenfish reports the weight of the medium size Werks Sonix as 6.41 Ibs. Reminds me again of why I didn't buy an ETSX (rocky lies about frame weights claiming lower numbers than reality). Too bad since the colour goes with my Noleen forks and all greenfish has left are 20" size ones which is what I want.

    Aha found it... http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.ph...ht+vl120+frame

    5.8 given by emptybeer and then confirmed by jill.
    The Sonix frames weigh approximately 5.8lbs without shock. Manufacturers take their frame weights without shock since it gives a true apples-to-apples comparison. Greenfish takes their frame weights with the rear shock intact.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by downhilljill
    The Sonix frames weigh approximately 5.8lbs without shock. Manufacturers take their frame weights without shock since it gives a true apples-to-apples comparison. Greenfish takes their frame weights with the rear shock intact.
    Thats funny because the manufactures I deal with do frame weight with shock on. Not to start a flame fest here but it would only be fare if frame weight was with a shock. If your going to cherry pick use a light air shock then.
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  36. #36
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    You also neglected to inform me at the time its without shock, and what manufacturers list without shocks? Most manufacturers list a weight as the frame is needed to ride the thing... which means painted, shocks, etc (rocky mountain had been caught publishing unpainted frame weights at a time they didn't offer a bare finish anymore) especially as shock weights can vary. So listing "without" makes no sense at all since people don't generally buy a frame minus its shock.
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  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by dogonfr
    Thats funny because the manufactures I deal with do frame weight with shock on. Not to start a flame fest here but it would only be fare if frame weight was with a shock. If your going to cherry pick use a light air shock then.
    Since shock weights vary, weights are taken without rear shock. I know many manufacturers who weight their frames this way.

    OK then....5.8lbs without shock and add about 1/2 to 3/4 lb for an air shock.

    Good grief. I think I'm done with this thread.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeEight
    You also neglected to inform me at the time its without shock, and what manufacturers list without shocks? Most manufacturers list a weight as the frame is needed to ride the thing... which means painted, shocks, etc (rocky mountain had been caught publishing unpainted frame weights at a time they didn't offer a bare finish anymore) especially as shock weights can vary. So listing "without" makes no sense at all since people don't generally buy a frame minus its shock.
    I did not mislead you. Many manufacturers weigh their frames without shock. Our intent isn't to mislead anyone, just to provide facts.

    If the extra 1/2 lb bothers you, don't buy the frame.

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    frame weight

    We've gotten a little off topic on this one, but to put to rest any "I heard the frame weight was..." or "the dealer told me..." or "Jill said..." this is how I obtained the weight of the Sonix Werx frame.

    I bought a Sonix VL120 from Jocelyn's in <st1><st1:city>Monterey</st1:city>, <st1:state>California</st1:state></st1>. I stripped down the entire bike. I replaced the stock RP3 with an RP23 which basically made it a Sonix Werx frame. Before I built the bike with my own components, I put the frame (large frame with RP23 installed) on my scale (which is both accurate and precise) and it weighed 5.81 pounds.

    Now, a comment on this thread and posting in general: I encourage you to try to be more edifying in your posts. After all, when it comes right down to it, most of us just want to ride and have a good time. As the old saying goes, if you don't have anything good to say, don't say it at all. It's unfortunate that Ozvena felt so disserviced that he had to take his issue into a public forum, right or wrong, honest or dishonest. But seriously, does it do any good to degrade or insult him or anyone else? It might make you feel vindicated or justified in your indignation, but in reality, it just alienates and makes you look, at best, socially inept or, at worst, plain vicious.

    If you find you are irresistibly tempted to write a derogatory post, click here and distract yourself until the urge subsides.
    Last edited by emptybeer; 09-28-2007 at 03:59 AM.
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  40. #40
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    Well put, emptybeer.

    I know this has gotten way off topic, but just to clarify frame weights, our frame weights are taken with the rear shock removed. Most manufacturers weigh their frames this way but I'm sure there are others that weigh with the rear shock in.

    We weigh our frames like this not to be shady or misleading but to give a baseline weight to people when they are comparing similar frames with different components.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozvena
    ....repeat that I got support from two local authorized dealers (LBS) already ...
    If you want to keep piling here and calling me "ass" or "idiot" on PM you are free to do so...
    Oz- I want to make it clear that I never called you an ass or an idiot until you began to insult me. I originally only said that you were acting in that manner in this situation. That is an important distinction in my mind. I act like an idiot in some situations, but that doesn't make me an idiot.

    "DIY" does happen on a regular basis in all manufacturing that I have ever experienced. Every bike shop has, at minimum, a vice, bending rod (preferably at least 5 foot), a grinding wheel, and a large assortment of files. This is nothing to mention of the "DIY" that I saw happen when I worked at the Yeti factory.

    I remember the first time that I was on a new house construction site. Halfway through framing up the first floor, I heard a loud pounding. I looked over to see a carpenter swinging away at the framing with a large sledge hammer as hard as he possibly could. The corner was not square until after he made it so with a rather rudimentary tool. Would the future homeowner like to see that? Probably not. But that homeowner ended up w/ a solidly constructed house. 10 plus years later it is still standing.

    Ideally any Haro dealer would offer you the level the service as the dealer that made the money off the frame would. That is a pretty pie-in-the-sky outlook. Support your local bike shop and they will support you.

    I am not a mechanical engineer. I do not understand the problem with your frame. I am a bike rider. As such, I rode a Xeon on some pretty gnarly trails in Boulder City. It worked great. Might there be some problem down the road with the frame due to some inherent design flaw? Maybe. Do I trust that Haro will make it right? Yes.
    MTBR disclaimer- Work in the industry from time 2 time. For the majority of the stuff that I use, I didn't pay retail price.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by downhilljill
    Since shock weights vary, weights are taken without rear shock. I know many manufacturers who weight their frames this way.
    Name them.
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    Ellsworth was/is one of them.

    Here's a Turner video hosted by MTBR from the show. Note what Turner says when he speaks about the Flux:

    http://www.mtbr.com/videos/2007/turner.mov

    In this case I will step up and say reputable companies will give a weight as they equip it. It's reminiscent of Marzocchi and how they would weigh their forks without a steertube. EW used to take out full page ads and post an ungodly weight, but put in tiny print "(without shock)" and see now how they are still unable to shake any of their past and are so scrutinized with any shortcoming they have.
    Last edited by Jerk_Chicken; 09-28-2007 at 10:31 AM.

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    If people want to call out Haro for being "unreputable" for giving a frame weight without shock, so be it. I think the work we do in this forum addressing service issues speaks loudly to dispute that.

    It has nothing to do with wanting to sell more bikes because of a lower frame weight. It's the based on our belief that consumers should be provided a baseline weight because frame weights and rear shock weights vary.

    If people are going to get miffed over a half of a pound or don't agree with the method we weigh our frames, personally I'd rather see them buy a different frame. If people want a sweet riding bike at a great price with awesome service to back it up, buy one of our bikes. Or buy any bike for that matter. Buy the bike you can afford from the company you believe in who makes a product you believe in even more.

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    No one accused Haro of being a non-reputable company. On the contrary. The industry standard for weighing a frame is with the hardware, as it appears, along with the shock. The shock is an integral part of the suspension and usually a part of the design in some way, so to be comparable to others in the industry, a manufacturer should publish weights accordingly. I only mentioned something about "reputable" in the light that several companies have been criticized and brought down in part by things of this manner. Customers never forget, that's why EW can't get away from how TE ran the company years ago and still does, no matter who he fires, hires, who leaves and comes in. Things are still happening and people still haven't forgotten his magazine ad where he posted a light weight for a frame, but did so without a shock. This is no longer the practice in the industry. Rocky Mountain and Kona are also notorious for altered specs and weights.

    Passing it off as preferring someone go elsewhere isn't the solution either. The solution is to get the higher ups in the corporation to agree that there should be comparability to specifications. Customers want honesty and really appreciate it. A good product can stand on its own. Apparently, the Haros are getting good reviews, so there's no reason why they can't stand on their own with the weight spec to allow some form of comparability.

    "Seatclamp, bolts, shock, no bulls*it".

  46. #46
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    From my knowledge, I remember almost all the manufacturers giving frame weight without shocks :|
    Quote Originally Posted by <sL4yEr>RuLz
    All good suggestions. What kind of "ass-orderant" would you recommend?

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    Passing it off as preferring someone go elsewhere isn't the solution either. The solution is to get the higher ups in the corporation to agree that there should be comparability to specifications. Customers want honesty and really appreciate it. A good product can stand on its own. Apparently, the Haros are getting good reviews, so there's no reason why they can't stand on their own with the weight spec to allow some form of comparability.

    "Seatclamp, bolts, shock, no bulls*it".
    It's actually my decision based on what we believe in as a group and how we've weighed frames from the day we started making FS bikes.

    In all fairness to the original poster of this thread, we've gotten way off topic. I'm as guilty as everyone else; guess that's just how "conversation" goes sometimes. I don't the mod to lock it so others can comment on the original subject at hand if they wish. If anyone would like to discuss our frame weights, please contact me directly or start another thread.

  48. #48
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    I noticed you responded to jerk's comment about "reputable" but you didn't actually answer my question of naming these other brands that weigh the frames without the shocks. Either name them or I'm gonna start to think you manage Haro the same way TE does/did with EW.
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    Quote Originally Posted by downhilljill
    I did not mislead you. Many manufacturers weigh their frames without shock. Our intent isn't to mislead anyone, just to provide facts.

    If the extra 1/2 lb bothers you, don't buy the frame.
    Do the bikes come without shocks?
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

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