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  1. #1
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    Trailforks Pro - New app subscription service

    Big changes with Trailforks moving to app subscription model if you travel a lot outside your home area (square of 38 mile sides, which equals to 1400 square miles). App will be free to use within your home area and on the desktop.

    Sign Up:
    https://www.trailforks.com/pro/

    Pricing $3/month, special pricing if you sign up in September 2020.

    FAQs on the changes:
    https://www.trailforks.com/pro/faq/


    Last edited by OttaCee; 3 Weeks Ago at 12:28 PM. Reason: Fixed area coverage under free account

  2. #2
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    F*ck Trailforks.

    30km radius doesn't remotely cover my "home area". It's more like 30-60mi (I just measured it out on a map).

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    F*ck Trailforks.
    Are you seriously losing your sh!t over $1.50/month?

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by RMCDan View Post
    Are you seriously losing your sh!t over $1.50/month?
    When it was the same stuff they supplied without charge before, yes. Same BS Strava pulled this year, too. Taking features they didn't charge for in the past, then charging for them. It's fine to offer a premium service and a free service. But it's damn shitty to take features away from free users and begin charging for them.

    Particularly, I'm pissed that TF is making their radius so small. Oh, we're going to throw a bone to people and let them access their "local" trails on a free account. Just about everywhere I've lived, my "radius" has been roughly a 1-1.5hr drive. Some places I've lived have had zero trails within 30km of my city. With the radius TF gives, that rules out trails that I'll ride in the evening after work.

    Everybody wants subscription services now, too. Across all aspects of life. So someone exercising financial budgeting in their household needs to pick and choose subscriptions carefully and not just start paying when a formerly 100% free service they've used now requires a subscription to access what you used to access.

  5. #5
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    Yeah, this super sucks.

    If the "home" area was larger, I might be less annoyed (still annoyed though).

    But this 30 square miles... That covers exactly one of my local riding areas that I actively ride, out of at least 4-5 that I consider "local" (about an hour drive in any direction).

    Also, looking at the FAQ... I'm still not certain how Free and Pro differ. It says free can still record rides anywhere in the world, view your own rides, and check trail conditions/update them. That seems like most things?

    Or does that mean that the public facing trail maps will now be behind a paywall?

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by ocnLogan View Post
    Or does that mean that the public facing trail maps will now be behind a paywall?
    Yes, it looks like a sort of screen overlay, or graying out of content. Should become more apparent as it the implementation rolls out next week (?)

  7. #7
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    Looking more at the main page, I noticed it explicitely says "app" features for pro, are unlimited offline access to trails/etc. To me that sounds like maybe the website will still let you browse trails in other regions/etc (scouting trails/planning rides/etc).

    In fact, it looks like the app is the main thing affected here, so it might not be as big of a deal for me personally. I only record on the app, and view everything else on my PC. And I don't use any of the "social" features either (I don't "follow" anyone else, or view their rides/etc).

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    When it was the same stuff they supplied without charge before, yes. Same BS Strava pulled this year, too. Taking features they didn't charge for in the past, then charging for them. It's fine to offer a premium service and a free service. But it's damn shitty to take features away from free users and begin charging for them.

    Particularly, I'm pissed that TF is making their radius so small. Oh, we're going to throw a bone to people and let them access their "local" trails on a free account. Just about everywhere I've lived, my "radius" has been roughly a 1-1.5hr drive. Some places I've lived have had zero trails within 30km of my city. With the radius TF gives, that rules out trails that I'll ride in the evening after work.

    Everybody wants subscription services now, too. Across all aspects of life. So someone exercising financial budgeting in their household needs to pick and choose subscriptions carefully and not just start paying when a formerly 100% free service they've used now requires a subscription to access what you used to access.
    If they don't make money, they go out of business, then there won't even be a free version to use. It alway funny when people complain about having to pay for something.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by ocnLogan View Post
    it looks like the app is the main thing affected
    I think we can expect the website to follow. Trailforks has removed the sentence that said the website will be free forever from their About page.

    Before:


    After:

    I hope this will result in people using Openstreetmap instead: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mountain_biking
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Trailforks Pro - New app subscription service-trailforks-always-free.jpg  

    Trailforks Pro - New app subscription service-trailfors-not-free.jpg  


  10. #10
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    An 18 mile local area is BS. If there are trails within 18, or even 40 miles, likely you ride them all the time and as such have no need to use TF.

    Just a way to keep the operation afloat and maybe it'll help fund add'l features. I've no problem paying a small fee for a decent service. I do this with RideWithGPS as I use it all the time, so am happy paying for it. TF I don't need to use much.

  11. #11
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    I've never paid for an app as I don't use many. But TF is the one app I would pay for. And at $1.50/month, its a no brainer.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon Fat View Post
    If they don't make money, they go out of business, then there won't even be a free version to use. It alway funny when people complain about having to pay for something.
    It's always funny when people miss the point.

    It's not about there being a paid version. It's about taking away formerly free features and making you pay for them. Strava did this with leaderboards. I never used those much, so no real skin off my back, but it was still a shitty move. TF's move here is REAL shitty because the first thing that TF existed for was to show maps of the trails. And now that core functionality (the only reason I even used TF) is going paid.

    If they had planned a bit better, they could have realized that they're going to need to make money with it some way or another (if only to cover development costs), and set up free/premium services from the start (or at least planned for it and set it up that map use/planning would always be free, but new features would always hit premium first and some would always be premium). But nah, as shown above, they came in advertising "Free forever!" and now "oops, my bad, now we have to charge you for things, so technically, we lied."

    I also have issues with charging people to access GPS data that they were GIVEN or that they skimmed from other services. Maybe I should write TF a bill for the trail data that I've submitted to their website now that they're going to be charging users to access it. On trails that are also outside the 30km "home" radius. So now I can't even access map data that I've uploaded, I guess?

    And as to the point about the 30km radius being BS, it kinda is. I don't have ALL the trails in my usual riding area memorized yet (it takes awhile to memorize several hundred miles of trails within my 1-1.5hr radius), so I still consult maps from time to time. But within 30km, yeah, I've got all those memorized. So I don't NEED TF to navigate myself. Though I occasionally do pull out maps to show visitors who are lost. It just won't be TF.

    Also, considering when TF's main competitor (MTB Project) shows all the maps on its website and allows offline downloading on its app for free, it's honestly kinda hard for me to justify TF. Seems like TF is counting on people thinking it's SO MUCH BETTER that they'll feel justified in paying up and continuing to pass on MTB Project. Meh. Frankly I think TF will lose some people over it. I already used the two services fairly equally, but at this point, I'm going to be going dialing back TF use.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    It's always funny when people miss the point.

    It's not about there being a paid version. It's about taking away formerly free features and making you pay for them.
    Yeah, you're mad that you have to pay for a service that was previously free. You feel you are entitled to their hard work for free...a lot of the population feels they are entitled to others hard work and service for free.

    Start your own program and give it away for free, or stop complaining that you can't get free stuff

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon Fat View Post
    Yeah, you're mad that you have to pay for a service that was previously. You feel you are entitled to their hard work for free...a lot of the population feels they are entitled to others hard work and service for free.

    Start your own program and give it away for free, or stop complaining that you can't get free stuff
    Their hard work? They relied on the hard work of their users for that database. The bone they throw? A discount on sub fees. But I still have to pay to view data that I submitted.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    Their hard work? They relied on the hard work of their users for that database. The bone they throw? A discount on sub fees. But I still have to pay to view data that I submitted.
    Yeah, you agree to that when you used their app. Stop complaining. You aren't owed anything.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon Fat View Post
    Yeah, you agree to that when you used their app. Stop complaining. You aren't owed anything.
    It's good that there are other options out there, so nobody has to pay TF for anything. Still doesn't mean that it's not a shitty move by TF.

  17. #17
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    Progress is relentless. Can't stop it just because something used to be this way but now needs to be this way. I can't see even $3 a month covering the operating cost of paying software devs just to maintain the app and website let alone develop new features.

  18. #18
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    Itís mostly a few things for me.

    Itís hard anytime when something changes. Especially something they said would be ďfree foreverĒ.

    I hate subscription services. Iíd rather buy software outright, than pay for it in perpetuity.

    They state that the free version is because they expect people to be contributing to their local trail systems with condition information/etc. this makes sense to me, but have one problem with how itís implemented.

    Their ďhome regionĒ is incredibly small. I looked mine up. I live in the greater Seattle area, an area blessed with lots of good trail networks/systems.

    Yet most of the trails that I consider ďlocalĒ wouldnít be included in my "home region". Meaning, Duthie Hill, Tiger Mountain, and Raging river. Arguably the most popular mountain biking networks in the area.

    I have exactly one riding area that I actually ride in that radius (not any of the ones above). And thats not counting other trail systems that most would still consider "greater seattle region", like Bellingham.

    Not saying I know the ideal ďhome region sizeĒ, but just stating that their intent was to have most local trails be free, and to pay for stuff outside that, that they seem to have missed the mark.

    Maybe Iíll go give feedback on their forums, and maybe some tweaking of the numbers could happen in the future.

    And, I understand itís their prerogative. Just also stating that Iím not tied to supporting them.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by OttaCee View Post
    home area (37 square miles)...
    A circle with a radius of 3.4 miles has an area of 37 square miles. That would be an awfully small riding area. You must mean something different...perhaps 37 miles square, or something?
    What, me worry?

  20. #20
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    I agree the local area is way to small. I consider anything within a 60 mile drive as local.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lone Rager View Post
    A circle with a radius of 3.4 miles has an area of 37 square miles. That would be an awfully small riding area. You must mean something different...perhaps 37 miles square, or something?
    It's a 30km (18.6 mile) radius from your "home area" whatever that is. I am more than 18 mile from the closest trail so I may just have a blank map...

    EDIT: Apparently they changed their FAQ since yesterday with grade school level math thinking that 37 square miles was more than an 18 mile radius??? It's not, it's way less...

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  22. #22
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    More clarification on free area coverage on the Trailforks app

    Square of 60km (38 mile) sides, which equals to 3600 square kilometers (1400 square miles)

    Trailforks Pro - New app subscription service-p5pb19295274.jpg

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by OttaCee View Post
    More clarification on free area coverage on the Trailforks app

    Square of 60km (38 mile) sides, which equals to 3600 square kilometers (1400 square miles)

    Insufficient.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by OttaCee View Post
    More clarification on free area coverage on the Trailforks app

    Square of 60km (38 mile) sides, which equals to 3600 square kilometers (1400 square miles)

    Wow.

    The way they first had that written was... dramatically different/misleading, or just incorrect.

    1400 square miles is vastly different than 38 square miles.

    Another quick look at the map, means I should get Duthie Hill, but potentially not Raging River/Tiger Mountain. And means that Bellingham is a totally different region, dispite being just over an hour drive away from my neighborhood.

    Still smaller than I think I would self describe as my ďregionĒ. But at least itís not as laughably small.

    At least you get to choose exactly where it is.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    Insufficient.
    Lol It all must be free. I demand it.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon Fat View Post
    Lol It all must be free. I demand it.
    That's bullshit and you know it.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    That's bullshit and you know it.
    For the price of one small coffee a month, you too can support a Harold from getting lost on his bicycle. Won't someone please support a Harold.

  28. #28
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    It looks like they've updated the PRO FAQ since yesterday. Perhaps they saw the thread and its feedback?

    They now have a screenshot of the 1400sq mile area, and have added this clarification.

    To be clear, the website and access to maps and trail data remains free on the website. Only the map outside your free area in the Trailforks app will be greyed out unless you become a PRO subscriber.

    Some niche features on the website like Garmin basemaps become a Pro only. We are excited to have more resources in the future for many new features, some of which will be Pro only. But the website will remain largely unchanged and a lot of the apps functionalty still works as a free user.
    And this.

    The app will choose your free area automatically but you can adjust this area once to your choice. The free area is a square of 60km (38 mile) sides, which equals to 3600 square kilometers (1400 square miles). This area can be positioned anywhere you like and does NOT have to be centered where you live. It's intended to encompass your most used riding area even if that area is far away from where you live.
    Glad to hear the website trail info/location stuff will keep working as expected.

  29. #29
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    I only use Trailforks because our local club insists on using it for trail status updates.
    The app gets opened once a month at most.

  30. #30
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    I'm kind of curious how this will affect Garmin GPS units with built-in TF?

    I can probably manage $3/mo if needed, so no biggie either way.
    I started mountain biking 30+ years ago, long before smartphones.
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  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanuckMountainMan View Post
    I'm kind of curious how this will affect Garmin GPS units with built-in TF?
    That is a good questions.

  32. #32
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    I guess this kicks in Oct 1? The free account on the app will be limited but I imagine you'll still be able to access the website and unrestricted trail info via your phone's browser for free as long as you have internet connectivity.

    Though I've got the app, I haven't really used it. I do use the TF website (among other resources) to research new places to ride, but generally lay out and download courses with RWGPS.
    What, me worry?

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by ocnLogan View Post
    It looks like they've updated the PRO FAQ since yesterday. Perhaps they saw the thread and its feedback?
    That's better clarification. Still, I'll probably just remove the app from my phone at this point.

    It's still irritating that they're taking something away that was once completely free now that they've convinced a bunch of people to use it.

    Regarding the downloadable Garmin basemaps, those used to be only accessible if you "donated" to a trail org (though the transparency on that was poor, and I didn't trust it). Are they saying that now you have to pay TF to get those, INSTEAD of donating to the trail org? Or pay TF IN ADDITION to donating?

    Either way, I think a different method to monetize would make more sense. My use of the trail map apps on my phone (only the phone, not browsing maps on my computer) is pretty limited to the times I do a mtb trip somewhere brand new. At most a couple times a year. Sometimes, as in this year, it's not at all. I see the temptation that businesses have with making a subscription-based service because there's regularity to bringing in money when you get people to sign up. But for some business models and some use scenarios it's actually not good for the customer.

    This is why I severely limit the number of streaming services I subscribe to (and other subscription services of other types). I simply don't watch enough television to actually make it worthwhile to pay for more. I pay for a couple that offer specific things that I like and I skip the rest. I do like the pay-per-use type services where I can just pay a rental fee for a single show/movie that I watch. Amazon has their interesting hybrid streaming where they have individual rentals and then they have stuff included with Prime subscriptions. Though I pay for Prime for the shipping, not the streaming.

    For TF, putting their downloadable Garmin basemaps into Pro doesn't really make sense. Just charge singly for a download of a state, whether you're a free user or a Pro user. Making it a Pro feature basically just amounts to laziness for not wanting to have different fee structures.

    Given my infrequent use of their app, paying a subscription for all the time I'm not using it doesn't make sense. Make it so that the app itself is no longer free and costs a dollar or two in order to download (so ANYONE using the app has some skin in the game). Instead of severely restricting geography to free users (the area is small enough that it's not hard for most people to memorize the trail connections within it), restrict the number of offline downloads allowed. Basically, allow people to cache 1 state's worth of trail maps in the app for 1 month or 1 week per year for free (have the app automatically clear them after that time period unless the person subscribes). This allows occasional users to stay free, but the frequent users are given an incentive to go subscription. And as I said before, put new features into the premium service first. Right now, it doesn't seem like they're adding any totally new features to their premium service.

    The other reason that it's a hard sell for TF to go so heavily into a subscription service right now is because there are plenty of other places that trail maps can be accessed for free. People who have been doing this for awhile generally have a good idea where to go for this stuff. Considering the easy availability of other free data, I see those competitors gaining use, since it's not like it's TF or nothing in most areas.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon Fat View Post
    It alway funny when people complain about having to pay for something.
    Well it's not exactly like this Trailforks is providing place, people (you know, those who complain about having to pay for something) are actually providing data. Trailforks doesn't make trails, Trailforks doesn't even draw trails to maps, people do... for free, and for Trailforks to earn money. So it's not exactly so black and white as you say
    Primoz

  35. #35
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    What's Strava and Trailforks??

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  36. #36
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    Eh, I only use it when I travel. There are other comparable options available for free, some better. Good luck to them, no more trails from me....

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    Just charge singly for a download of a state, whether you're a free user or a Pro user.
    What's a state?

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by NordieBoy View Post
    What's a state?
    It's a situation, circumstance or condition. For example, I'm in a state of confusion.
    What, me worry?

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    That's bullshit and you know it.
    Kinda like expecting a service for free?
    ..now just tinker with our bikes and feed the cats. - oldbear52

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg_o View Post
    Kinda like expecting a service for free?
    Let's just make shit up that Harold isn't actually saying. Seems a fun game, eh?

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    Their hard work? They relied on the hard work of their users for that database. The bone they throw? A discount on sub fees. But I still have to pay to view data that I submitted.
    You nailed it. Bait and switch, get people to provide them the product, and then charge them to access it.

    They have the data on who has submitted what. Would not have been hard to offer additional discounts or credits for prolific contributors.
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  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon Fat View Post
    If they don't make money, they go out of business, then there won't even be a free version to use. It alway funny when people complain about having to pay for something.
    Perhaps every poor business model should be propped up with that justification?
    If it's not powered solely by you, it's motorized.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ACree View Post
    Perhaps every poor business model should be propped up with that justification?
    The poor business model is one that doesn't make money. If their product is useful, people will pay for it. The deadbeats weren't ever going to pay for it anyways, so losing that customer isn't a big deal

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon Fat View Post
    For the price of one small coffee a month, you too can support a Harold from getting lost on his bicycle. Won't someone please support a Harold.
    Iíll support a Harold, if only to stop him whining!
    TF has been a godsend for organisations that develop and maintain a trail network.
    We have 80km of local trails and TF has been very useful - far better than the app we spent a bundle developing ourselves...

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon Fat View Post
    The poor business model is one that doesn't make money. If their product is useful, people will pay for it. The deadbeats weren't ever going to pay for it anyways, so losing that customer isn't a big deal
    Hmmm....

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinkbike
    Trailforks is not just any trail mapping website, it's a user contributed database that puts the control into the hands of the people who have worked so hard to preserve and maintain the trails we love. Did you know that many trail Associations don't own the GPS data for the networks they support. Many areas have maps owned by private interests and not all, if any, of the profits make it back to the associations. Trailforks' mission is to provide a direct funding model to put 100% of the money back into the association. On Trailforks users can directly support the people that are swinging the hammers and digging the dirt to maintain and preserve the trails we all love to ride.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pinkbike
    Pinkbike will ensure Trailforks' longevity, with no requirement for it to be self supporting. So many other trail sites have come and gone, never taken off, have paid access to useful data or are locally focused. Trailforks is free, world-wide and automatically integrated with tens of thousands of photos and videos already on Pinkbike.

  46. #46
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    And now their business model has changed.

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    Trailforks Pro - New app subscription service

    Great sleuth work!!
    Quote Originally Posted by fridday View Post
    I think we can expect the website to follow. Trailforks has removed the sentence that said the website will be free forever from their About page.

    Before:


    After:

    I hope this will result in people using Openstreetmap instead: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mountain_biking

    Lots of Trailforks baseline data came for the user community, volunteers built it up via data submissions, me included.

    Iíd like a reward system for us volunteers, maybe one time fee?

    Iím not on any local trail board currently, did my multi year stint years back. So wonít get that bone either.


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    The website will still be free. Only the app has the subscription fee.

  49. #49
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    I was always amazed that TF was free. Such a great resource whenever I want to explore new-to-me trail systems, whether in my home state or those I travel to.

    Iíll cheerfully pay $1.50/mo for such an amazing resource. Iím grateful TF was free for as long as it was.
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  50. #50
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    I like TF, but... the home area is WAY to small. 1,400 square miles? Really? The metro area (with over 9.5 million peeps) where I reside where people commute across regularly, and ride nearly 40 trails, covers 9,500+ square miles! For us, 1,400 square miles means nothing.

    The other thing, for me anyway, is TF is most usable when I am out of my "home" area. After all, I know my local trails with my eyes closed. No need for TF at that point.

    I have mixed feelings about charging, but it is a business and has costs. Better than pop up ads in my opinion.

    But my guess is those that need TF for out of town trails will just create another login for that area, and call it "home"... just sayin'.
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  51. #51
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    Alright... I bit the bullet on the intro offer, half off for life. $17 a year is minuscule. Looking around out of curiously, it's a lot better than $60 a year for Strava. Does anyone actually pay that? Not a Strava user, so I have no clue. All Trails is $30. MTB Project still seems free, but I never cared much for it myself.

    I admit it, I support TF...
    You didn't quit riding because you're old, you're old because you quit riding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fredcook View Post
    Alright... $17 a year is minuscule.
    Itís $18/yr but whatever ó youíre right itís minuscule.

    If someone has to budget for an annual $18 expenditure, theyíve got bigger problems than the cost of an app.
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  53. #53
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    Look at it this way- Pinkbike promised they would never charge for Trailforks. They havenít. Trailforks is independent now. Iím glad theyíre maintaining their service rather than selling it off to another provider who doesnít care about the MTB community.

    My nonprofit is relatively modest, but Trail Karma has been surprisingly beneficial for us. It basically covered this yearís office rent.

    Iím willing to pay for things I use and value. Iíd prefer to, actually. I wish FBís model was to charge $5/month. That would solve a lot of problems.

    There is a fair amount of admin/developer chatter. One idea I saw floated was the ability for a local group to partner to sell access to a specific region for free users, much like selling a paper trail map. Iíd love to see that.

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by fredcook View Post
    Alright... I bit the bullet on the intro offer, half off for life. $17 a year is minuscule. Looking around out of curiously, it's a lot better than $60 a year for Strava. Does anyone actually pay that? Not a Strava user, so I have no clue. All Trails is $30. MTB Project still seems free, but I never cared much for it myself.

    I admit it, I support TF...
    Yeah, I do. Mostly out of inertia now, but Beacon was the easiest way to give my GF some peace of mind about my solo rides. Plus it let me download GPX files of other usersí rides.

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by fredcook View Post
    Alright... I bit the bullet on the intro offer, half off for life. $17 a year is minuscule. Looking around out of curiously, it's a lot better than $60 a year for Strava. Does anyone actually pay that? Not a Strava user, so I have no clue. All Trails is $30. MTB Project still seems free, but I never cared much for it myself.

    I admit it, I support TF...
    I pay for Strava. I use it a lot, so I feel they are worth supporting. I only use TF when I am looking for routes in new area. Not going to take the chance of not getting to ride the best trails or getting lost for $1.50 a month. So I'm happy to support them too

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    I have done rides that cost more than $18 in gas driving to the trailhead. Having moved recently trailforks is in use almost every ride so I signed up for pro.

  57. #57
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    Over here all tracks are listed on TF.
    If you are a downhiller.

  58. #58
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    I concur it is annoying that they lured all these contributors to their platform while it was free, and will now charge for the information provided by users. But I also understand that they need the revenue. I just wish they left more functionality intact. It seems to me that allowing access to maps should be free, but maybe charge for features like recording, gps location, etc.

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    MTB Project is still free. In some ways I prefer it but I use both. MTB Project at least showed their appreciation to the people who uploaded trails. They sent me a free jersey for mapping, uploading and actually putting in good descriptions for the trails. If MTB Project doesn't have a trail usually TF does.

    MTB Project was a bit nicer early on. Uploading trails was easy and you had a lot of freedom. At some point with every trail I would upload it seemed to get modified for some reason. Someone was going in after I'd upload a trail and checked to find the local outdated trail map and made alterations to my GPS literally tracking the exact route. I stopped uploading after having to fight with the mods about this trail being rerouted or the map was outdated.

    I have no problem spending $3 a month for either MTB Project or TF. I'm sure practically everyone on here wastes more than that on a monthly basis for crap that's far less useful or impulse buys.

  60. #60
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    I'll gladly pay $18/yr no problem,

    I let my AllTrails expire last month. (-$30)
    Also cancelled Disney+(-$10) and Netflix 4K premium (-$17)*

    *(Canadian pricing)
    Trek Farley Family
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  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanuckMountainMan View Post
    2020 Farley 9.8 Rage Red 2020 Farley 9.6 Matte Olive 2020 Farley 7 ROARange 2018 Farley 7 Viper Red
    Just curious... like Farleys much?
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  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus View Post
    Just curious... like Farleys much?
    =sParty


    Just picked up #4 today,
    ...a new 9.8 for $1240 off regular price.

    Wifey and I ride Fat all year round.

    Now we will each have a Rigid Carbon with Studded Gnarwhals for Winter groomed trails.
    Aluminum Frame w/Mastodon and Barbegazi's for the rougher trails the rest of the year.

    Posted here:https://forums.mtbr.com/fat-bikes/newbikeday-1150807.html)
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  63. #63
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    MTB project is a great app but the maps are far less complete than trailforks for my area. I think everyone around here adopted trailforks some time ago and really provided great data.

    According to the FAQ, they are giving free subs for pro to trail orgs. Between that and trail karma, I suppose it still makes sense for most trail orgs to use it over MTB project.

  64. #64
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    Barely use TF vs Strava for looking for or researching trails. But I sub to Strava and have just opted into TF pro. $18 a year is a bargain.


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  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanuckMountainMan View Post


    Just picked up #4 today,
    ...a new 9.8 for $1240 off regular price.

    Wifey and I ride Fat all year round.

    Now we will each have a Rigid Carbon with Studded Gnarwhals for Winter groomed trails.
    Aluminum Frame w/Mastodon and Barbegazi's for the rougher trails the rest of the year.

    Posted here:https://forums.mtbr.com/fat-bikes/newbikeday-1150807.html)
    If I lived someplace that received snow, I'd have a fat bike, too. But here in western Orygun we typically only average about one snow event per winter and it's usually the wet cement kind of snow.

    Anyway very nice bike! Er, bikes! Isn't cycling great? So many different flavors -- we can each have whatever we want. Have fun!
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  66. #66
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    So after sitting with this for a little bit of time, I've reached a couple of conclusions. First, TF really boned the implementation of this pay for pro thing. There was almost no warning that this was coming. I learned about it when I opened trailforks on my ride yesterday and suddenly the app wouldn't work unless I paid them money. I figured out how to set the free area and was able to get going, but still, implementing this with zero warning to users was pretty stupid.

    Second, the fact that TF made what was originally a free service into a pay service without adding anything is really a poor marketing tactic. It should have been very apparent to anyone planning this that there would be an immediate negative reaction. This ties into the first conclusion - there should have been a better plan with more lead time before springing this on users.

    Third, $18 a year is actually a very good deal for this, and something I am definitely willing to pay. I am concerned that a lot of volunteers are no longer going to contribute, and that will diminish the usefulness of the app over time, but if that happens then I can always cancel. But I would hope TF is very aware of the danger here and does something to encourage participation (credit toward subscriptions, for instance).

    Fourth, the biggest concern I have is what is in store in the future. Is trailforks going to get bought by garmin or someone else who makes more changes? Is the price going to be increased over time? Will we end up having to shell out $20 a month for this down the road? Who knows, but again, I guess when the time comes I can always bail.

    So I guess for now my conclusion is that I'm going to pay for the subscription. But I don't really feel that good about it, and it's largely because TF screwed up the implementation. Reading the forums, there are many who seem to feel this way. The damage done to TF's goodwill may diminish over time, but it could also make TF very vulnerable to a competitor in the near term.

    One final thing - if I could make one suggestion to TF on how to proceed from this point forward, it would be that TF should make all user-submitted data available for free on the app. That means the ability to browse any map content submitted by users and what people have posted about those trails (descriptions, difficulty level, etc). Then require a pro subscription for using GPS location, map overlays/topo, recording, ride logs, profile leaderboards, etc. I imagine most who would be willing to pay would do so just to get GPS navigation. But allowing the user-submitted data to still be accessible to all for free on the app would go a long way toward mollifying the bitter taste left in many of our mouths from the way this was done.

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    Comparison: I use tapatalk for so many forums. Daily, hourly, way more than Trailforks.
    I got tired of their ads, so now 0.99/month add free.

    IMO Trailforks at $3/month is high, Iíll probably do early bird to secure $1.5/month.
    Each monthly service plan adds up, every red cent matters.

    Oh, both my boys use it, age 14 and 16, are they under a family umbrella so to speak?






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  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post
    ... Oh, both my boys use it, age 14 and 16, are they under a family umbrella so to speak?
    Good question. I know some families that use TF collectively. And that begs another question. Does the Emergency feature work outside of home areas for free accounts. That's a feature one of those families depends on when their younger members are riding alone. I've already subscribed, so I don't know if that feature shows up on free accounts. Guess a question for TF.

    For those not familiar with the Emergency feature, it's a big red button you can tap to contact 911 with your coordinates, or send them to another person.
    You didn't quit riding because you're old, you're old because you quit riding.

  69. #69
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    Has anyone else had this (just?) occur to them? I signed up for the Pro account 9/1/2020. Have the Apple "Subscription Confirmation" email so I know I did indeed upgrade. Been working fine - same as before Pro existed. Today I went on it to research a ride I wanted to try today and I'm limited to the free version's mile restriction and it's asking me to upgrade to Pro. Rebooted, logged out, and also tried a "Restore Pro account" option in the settings which all haven't changed my free status. Really frustrating...

  70. #70
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    IME, theyíre responsive to the support tickets you generate in the app. Give that a shot.

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by evasive View Post
    IME, theyíre responsive to the support tickets you generate in the app. Give that a shot.
    Iíll agree with the responsiveness in this case. I did email support yesterday and they did reply and fix my issue in roughly two hrs from the email.


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  72. #72
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    what about single track and mtb project apps????

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob214 View Post
    what about single track and mtb project apps????
    mtbproject is still free (for now). don't know about any others.

  74. #74
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    "We Need Your Help Mapping Other Sports
    Trailforks is expanding to other sports or 'activity types'. We have a big task ahead documenting trails for hiking, moto, horseback, skiing, snowmobiling and more.

    Help add new trails or edit existing trails by selecting the activities they support.
    We are also looking for new regional Trailforks Ambassadors for these new sports."

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post
    "We Need Your Help Mapping Other Sports
    Trailforks is expanding to other sports or 'activity types'. We have a big task ahead documenting trails for hiking, moto, horseback, skiing, snowmobiling and more.
    Not really sure but sounds sort of ridiculous considering those people helping their business grow, actually need to pay to make their job. But hey it's just me, and I'm sure for most of people this is perfectly cool thing
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  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post
    "We Need Your Help Mapping Other Sports
    Trailforks is expanding to other sports or 'activity types'. We have a big task ahead documenting trails for hiking, moto, horseback, skiing, snowmobiling and more.

    Help add new trails or edit existing trails by selecting the activities they support.
    We are also looking for new regional Trailforks Ambassadors for these new sports."
    I'll pay the $3 for the app because I find it very useful for unknown trails or show routes to other people. But I'm not going to go out and do their job for them. Lol. GTFOH

  77. #77
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    There are people that like to help others in the community.

  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by the-one1 View Post
    I'll pay the $3 for the app because I find it very useful for unknown trails or show routes to other people. But I'm not going to go out and do their job for them. Lol. GTFOH
    It would be nearly impossible for the Trailforks team to do all of that tracking themselves. The $3 helps keep the app and the infrastructure going, development and infrastructure are not cheap. You donít have to help, but others that do are doing so for the good of the community


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    Quote Originally Posted by the-one1 View Post
    I'll pay the $3 for the app because I find it very useful for unknown trails or show routes to other people. But I'm not going to go out and do their job for them. Lol. GTFOH
    Their "job" is to build and maintain the app and its supporting infrastructure, which is no small task and certainly a lot more difficult than recording a GPS track while riding your bike. The overwhelming majority of users didn't and never will contribute data anyway.

  80. #80
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    Their implementation of this "PRO" service has been terrible. It's been throw it at the wall and see if it sticks since the start with seemingly no thought put into it. Between the ever changing home area to the "we never said the app would stay free" who knows what's next.

    For what it's worth, apparently if you are a TF ambassador, a local admin, or have contributed over 1000 TF points with 500 being trail additions/edits you are eligible for a free pro subscription: https://www.trailforks.com/pro/localadmin/ I am a local admin and have the minimum points so I requested and got the pro upgrade instantly.

  81. #81
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    I paid thru Apple store, got email receipt.
    Pro not registering 4 hours later.
    Other app updates happen real time.
    Both iPhone and desktop show nothing.
    Others who did pay: how long before showed up?
    Iíve restarted my iPhone also.


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  82. #82
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    My
    Issue solved via a reset Pro menu thing, I got a PM on it, now Pro active



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    Quite strong opinions on both sides. I think some people are missing the point or two.

    - Whoever thinks it's "only" $3 probably can't manage their personal finances well. Add a few "only $3"s multiply by 12 then by a few years and add interest and you will probably get enough for a new bike or very least a kickass mtb trip. Does it represent a good value for money? Is it wort it? It depends. I don't use it that often, not for my local trails. I know them well. So we're talking a few trips / weeks in a years in which case it's quite expensive imo
    - The thing that I find the most off-putting and borderline disgusting and immoral is the fact they charge for showing you trails that they contributed nothing towards. Smeone else built them, most likely for free out of passion. So TF contributes nothing really except, traffic, while making money out of it. They are leeches, just like Facebook et al. I think most people didn't think in these terms since it was free but now it's evident that TF main aim is to make money. Which brings us to...
    - TF's main priority is to make money. But they have been quite sneaky about it, which I think quite few people finds offensive. They say this "small" fee is to cover their costs. Don't believe this. It's bullĘrap. I think it's quite evident what their intentions are. They pulled off a classic trick. Made it free, hooked people and then started charging. They're so two faced to remove their "motto" which was something along the lines "we'll never charge for our services". Guess what this "small" charge will go up pretty soon. Guaranteed. If they can charge $30 / month and get away with it, they will.
    - TF's free option is a joke. Actually no, it's not a joke. It's well calculated and deceitful way of giving you false impression of choice. Not only the radius is very small but why would I want a map of my local trails?! I know them like a back of my own hand. I personally feel borderline offended by this. Clearly they don't think much about their customers.

    Will I subscribe? I don't know. Most likely not. One thing for sure, TF as a company lost my trust and respect for ever.

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    Lastly, it makes me laugh when people say TF is part of the "mtb community", whatever that means.
    If a buddy in my "mtb community" wanted to charge me a "small" fee for showing me trails (that he hasn't built himself), I would tell him to pi$$ off and go ride them himself

  85. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywalker991 View Post

    - Whoever thinks it's "only" $3 probably can't manage their personal finances well. Add a few "only $3"s multiply by 12 then by a few years and add interest and you will probably get enough for a new bike or very least a kickass mtb trip. .
    If you have trouble with 3 dollars a month, then you probably are the one with trouble managing their personal finances

  86. #86
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    I wish I had the space in my life to be this outraged about something so trivial.

    Quote Originally Posted by skywalker991 View Post
    Quite strong opinions on both sides. I think some people are missing the point or two.

    - Whoever thinks it's "only" $3 probably can't manage their personal finances well. Add a few "only $3"s multiply by 12 then by a few years and add interest and you will probably get enough for a new bike or very least a kickass mtb trip. Does it represent a good value for money? Is it wort it? It depends. I don't use it that often, not for my local trails. I know them well. So we're talking a few trips / weeks in a years in which case it's quite expensive imo
    - The thing that I find the most off-putting and borderline disgusting and immoral is the fact they charge for showing you trails that they contributed nothing towards. Smeone else built them, most likely for free out of passion. So TF contributes nothing really except, traffic, while making money out of it. They are leeches, just like Facebook et al. I think most people didn't think in these terms since it was free but now it's evident that TF main aim is to make money. Which brings us to...
    - TF's main priority is to make money. But they have been quite sneaky about it, which I think quite few people finds offensive. They say this "small" fee is to cover their costs. Don't believe this. It's bullĘrap. I think it's quite evident what their intentions are. They pulled off a classic trick. Made it free, hooked people and then started charging. They're so two faced to remove their "motto" which was something along the lines "we'll never charge for our services". Guess what this "small" charge will go up pretty soon. Guaranteed. If they can charge $30 / month and get away with it, they will.
    - TF's free option is a joke. Actually no, it's not a joke. It's well calculated and deceitful way of giving you false impression of choice. Not only the radius is very small but why would I want a map of my local trails?! I know them like a back of my own hand. I personally feel borderline offended by this. Clearly they don't think much about their customers.

    Will I subscribe? I don't know. Most likely not. One thing for sure, TF as a company lost my trust and respect for ever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon Fat View Post
    If you have trouble with 3 dollars a month, then you probably are the one with trouble managing their personal finances
    I don't see any logic in your statement. What if you don't earn much? It doesn't necessarily mean you are bad at managing your finances.

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    Quote Originally Posted by evasive View Post
    I wish I had the space in my life to be this outraged about something so trivial.
    And yet you have a space in your life to reply with a trivial comment

    I'm not outraged just sharing my views

  89. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywalker991 View Post
    And yet you have a space in your life to reply with a trivial comment

    I'm not outraged just sharing my views
    You were at least borderline disgusted- your words, not mine.

    I didnít say I donít have time to indulge my hobbies. I devote a lot of hours to bike advocacy, in fact. Many of those hours are frustrating. But there are many things far more disgusting, immoral, or outrageous out there than this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skywalker991 View Post
    I don't see any logic in your statement. What if you don't earn much? It doesn't necessarily mean you are bad at managing your finances.
    If you can't afford THIRTY SIX DOLLARS per YEAR you seriously can't afford to ride mountain bikes as a recreational activity.

    Caps for emphasis of the absurdity.

    Furthermore if you can't afford it then don't buy it.

  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fajita Dave View Post
    If you can't afford THIRTY SIX DOLLARS per YEAR you seriously can't afford to ride mountain bikes as a recreational activity.

    Caps for emphasis of the absurdity.
    It's not about few bucks, it's about being f$cked. Some folks don't mind it, some other do.

    Personally - I won't pay for Pro, I'll donate double to local trail org instead.

  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by borisotto View Post
    It's not about few bucks, it's about being f$cked. Some folks don't mind it, some other do.

    Personally - I won't pay for Pro, I'll donate double to local trail org instead.
    Great then don't pay for it.

    Especially with mapping there's developers working on apps like TF non-stop. Software development and maintenance is very expensive. Expecting it for free is insane. They at least tried to make it free and at some point realized it wasn't financially feasible.

    Personally I'm using MTB Project anyway which is still free and I uploaded the vast majority of the trails in my immediate area. Which took probably a few dozen hours of my time within the last few years. Free is nice but I won't be butt hurt if they decide a small fee is needed to keep their app running.

  93. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fajita Dave View Post
    Great then don't pay for it.
    I won't.

    Especially with mapping there's developers working on apps like TF non-stop. Software development and maintenance is very expensive.
    Dude, I'm in SW for 25 years, don't tell me how things are done there. "Very expensive" also varies wildly - from top-notch Principal engineer in SFBA to Intermediate level guy in Romania/Ukraine - could be 20x difference.

    Expecting it for free is insane. They at least tried to make it free and at some point realized it wasn't financially feasible.
    Who said I'm expecting anything?

    Personally I'm using MTB Project anyway which is still free and I uploaded the vast majority of the trails in my immediate area. Which took probably a few dozen hours of my time within the last few years. Free is nice but I won't be butt hurt if they decide a small fee is needed to keep their app running.
    I guess I'm not alone in my way of thinking, so
    1. I don't pay subs fees unless I see real value.
    2. I don't mind forking some $$ for a one time fee for the app.
    3. I don't like being lied to or taken advantage of.
    4. I support local.

    #1 - TF doesn't fit the bill.
    #2 - I'd probably paid up to $10 one time fee to keep the TF team going if things were handled differently.
    #3 - exactly the case.
    #4 - as said earlier, I better donate double to local MBA.

    Main thing I have issue with is how transition was presented and handled. They simply lost my trust, so it is not question of how many cents per year it is, it is that I don't want to do anything with them at all.

    Simple "Don't piss on my shoes and tell me it's raining" kind of thing.

    YMMV

  94. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by borisotto View Post
    I won't.



    Dude, I'm in SW for 25 years, don't tell me how things are done there. "Very expensive" also varies wildly - from top-notch Principal engineer in SFBA to Intermediate level guy in Romania/Ukraine - could be 20x difference.



    Who said I'm expecting anything?



    I guess I'm not alone in my way of thinking, so
    1. I don't pay subs fees unless I see real value.
    2. I don't mind forking some $$ for a one time fee for the app.
    3. I don't like being lied to or taken advantage of.
    4. I support local.

    #1 - TF doesn't fit the bill.
    #2 - I'd probably paid up to $10 one time fee to keep the TF team going if things were handled differently.
    #3 - exactly the case.
    #4 - as said earlier, I better donate double to local MBA.

    Main thing I have issue with is how transition was presented and handled. They simply lost my trust, so it is not question of how many cents per year it is, it is that I don't want to do anything with them at all.

    Simple "Don't piss on my shoes and tell me it's raining" kind of thing.

    YMMV
    So being in software for 25 years, how do you keep something like this afloat with new features and updates, without having the users make a payment? Not an attack, Iím genuinely curious. 2 years into software career


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    Quote Originally Posted by socalrider77 View Post
    So being in software for 25 years, how do you keep something like this afloat with new features and updates, without having the users make a payment? Not an attack, Iím genuinely curious. 2 years into software career
    Donno TF history of ownership, but there are few $$ options for app developers to keep things rolling:

    1. free app sponsored by some rich_guy/company for whatever reason.
    2. full free app with annoying ads and paid ad-less version.
    3. free 'light' app with paid full version (Bike tracks is the good example of what I've paid for and been happily using for years).
    4. paid app from the beginning (sometime with short eval time).
    5. free app with extra features for paid subscribers.

    TF went from #1 to #5 as far as I understand.

    #1 - clean but normally short lived
    #2 - clean and fair
    #3 - clean and fair
    #4 - clean and fair
    #5 - clean and fair as long as things are not moving suddenly from free to paid section.

    Now, on these new features, fixes and updates. Sooner or later every successful app (and SW product in general) is pretty much exhausting its features, reaches polished enough state and eventually the product pretty much stalls.

    After that app developer has a choice - let it be as is for foreseeable future with minimal investment or push envelope further. Popular options are to expand somewhere else (marry Call of Duty with Vegan cooking, add new activity types (scuba diving on bikes anyone?)), just make money in some other way to fund whatever expenses/RnD you need to cover. Or both at the same time.

    Here comes subs model - pay recurring fee for your extras and a promise of new great features. Unlike Patreon, where you support someone and these folks are working their asses off for your support and you do see it, app developer may simply use subs cashflow without really delivering anything new - you've got your extras, we've got your money, we have fixed these 2 very important bugs in the last month, life is good. Yes, someone has to pay for the infra - AWS, storage, web hosting and so on, but these things are pretty reasonably priced these days when set up properly.

    In short - subs cashflow is an easy predictable money (that's why TF went this way) and if you have good user-base, really good product and you push your users gently - you can expect vast majority to convert. Heck, "its just $1.50 a month, I'm not that broke". IMO, TF screwed up on the last part.

    Turned to be pretty long answer.
    As usual - YMMV.

  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by borisotto View Post
    Donno TF history of ownership, but there are few $$ options for app developers to keep things rolling:

    1. free app sponsored by some rich_guy/company for whatever reason.
    2. full free app with annoying ads and paid ad-less version.
    3. free 'light' app with paid full version (Bike tracks is the good example of what I've paid for and been happily using for years).
    4. paid app from the beginning (sometime with short eval time).
    5. free app with extra features for paid subscribers.

    TF went from #1 to #5 as far as I understand.

    #1 - clean but normally short lived
    #2 - clean and fair
    #3 - clean and fair
    #4 - clean and fair
    #5 - clean and fair as long as things are not moving suddenly from free to paid section.

    Now, on these new features, fixes and updates. Sooner or later every successful app (and SW product in general) is pretty much exhausting its features, reaches polished enough state and eventually the product pretty much stalls.

    After that app developer has a choice - let it be as is for foreseeable future with minimal investment or push envelope further. Popular options are to expand somewhere else (marry Call of Duty with Vegan cooking, add new activity types (scuba diving on bikes anyone?)), just make money in some other way to fund whatever expenses/RnD you need to cover. Or both at the same time.

    Here comes subs model - pay recurring fee for your extras and a promise of new great features. Unlike Patreon, where you support someone and these folks are working their asses off for your support and you do see it, app developer may simply use subs cashflow without really delivering anything new - you've got your extras, we've got your money, we have fixed these 2 very important bugs in the last month, life is good. Yes, someone has to pay for the infra - AWS, storage, web hosting and so on, but these things are pretty reasonably priced these days when set up properly.

    In short - subs cashflow is an easy predictable money (that's why TF went this way) and if you have good user-base, really good product and you push your users gently - you can expect vast majority to convert. Heck, "its just $1.50 a month, I'm not that broke". IMO, TF screwed up on the last part.

    Turned to be pretty long answer.
    As usual - YMMV.
    Makes sense, thanks for the info!

    Is TF not a mix of #3 and #5? They still have a free (albeit limited) version that you can use, and you pay extra for being able to see more areas? That, and you still have the web version thatís completely free for everything. Would it have satisfied you if the free version had more features?


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    Quote Originally Posted by socalrider77 View Post
    Makes sense, thanks for the info!

    1. Is TF not a mix of #3 and #5? They still have a free (albeit limited) version that you can use, and you pay extra for being able to see more areas?
    2. That, and you still have the web version thatís completely free for everything. Would it have satisfied you if the free version had more features?
    1. #3 model is Angry Birds - you have a free demo version with couple of levels and then you have paid app with all bells and whistles. You've paid once and you own your copy as-is, and if they add more - you get the update. AFAIK - its not TF model.

    2. I don't use web version (never actually been on a website ), only the app. I'd be fine with paying something like $0.99-$1.99 per map of the state/province/country/region and having all features working as before on maps I've paid for. I'm pretty sure TF has considered this approach, but decided to go after permanent cashflow solution. If they introduce this option of paid maps vs Pro subs - I may reconsider and buy what I need.

    Coming back to the topic, I've looked into the whole undertaking a bit more - it looks like TF is now owned by a separate company "Trailforks Mapping Inc" that is independent from Pinkbike. Claim is TF has over 1 million downloads on iOS/Android, assuming conservative 25% conversion rate to Pro subs (I guess it will be around 50% actually) it would be 250k subs forking $375k a month on discounted rate. Take off 30% cut for Apple/Google - that turns into ~$3m a year. For these money you can run small office with a team of 10-15 developers and QA folks in Vancouver and have some cash left. Couple years later TF may (or may not - we'll see) pull off Netflix - 'We are extremely sorry, but we have no other option but to increase our fees by that much per month'.

    All that makes me think that ppl behind this transaction want to make money, and when the money talks - you need a combination of x-ray vision and a cynicism to get the real picture. Both comes only with experience unfortunately.

    But everyone wants to have a decent life, nothing bad about it.

  98. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by borisotto View Post
    1. #3 model is Angry Birds - you have a free demo version with couple of levels and then you have paid app with all bells and whistles. You've paid once and you own your copy as-is, and if they add more - you get the update. AFAIK - its not TF model.

    2. I don't use web version (never actually been on a website ), only the app. I'd be fine with paying something like $0.99-$1.99 per map of the state/province/country/region and having all features working as before on maps I've paid for. I'm pretty sure TF has considered this approach, but decided to go after permanent cashflow solution. If they introduce this option of paid maps vs Pro subs - I may reconsider and buy what I need.

    Coming back to the topic, I've looked into the whole undertaking a bit more - it looks like TF is now owned by a separate company "Trailforks Mapping Inc" that is independent from Pinkbike. Claim is TF has over 1 million downloads on iOS/Android, assuming conservative 25% conversion rate to Pro subs (I guess it will be around 50% actually) it would be 250k subs forking $375k a month on discounted rate. Take off 30% cut for Apple/Google - that turns into ~$3m a year. For these money you can run small office with a team of 10-15 developers and QA folks in Vancouver and have some cash left. Couple years later TF may (or may not - we'll see) pull off Netflix - 'We are extremely sorry, but we have no other option but to increase our fees by that much per month'.

    All that makes me think that ppl behind this transaction want to make money, and when the money talks - you need a combination of x-ray vision and a cynicism to get the real picture. Both comes only with experience unfortunately.

    But everyone wants to have a decent life, nothing bad about it.
    Makes perfect sense now, thanks for the explanation!


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    Quote Originally Posted by socalrider77 View Post
    Makes perfect sense now, thanks for the explanation!
    NoPro, it was kinda fun to research this piece a bit, reminded me about being in start-up environment and how ugly things may turn when REAL money are on the table. Pretty much the final poker scene from 'Lock stock & 2 smoking barrels'.

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    I subscribed for $1.50 CDN a month the day I learned of the subscription. I felt fortunate to get in on it at the 50% off promo price. I am a heavy user. Maybe that puts me in a different boat than the people who are upset? Not sure.

    Just got back tonight from a whirlwind BC biking tour. Had my phone in my pocket and used it at least 10x a ride.

    I bike a lot throughout numerous regions of western Canada. That app has been, and will always be, pretty much invaluable to me.

    Maybe I have too little conviction or time to care, but I honestly have no idea why people are so upset with this. None. I am shocked I had access to this service as long as I did for free.

    I agree with the guy above - I wish my life was so near perfect that this could possibly even be an issue.
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    Trailforks Pro - New app subscription service

    Side bar. Thereís no monthly subscription option I saw, you pay yearly and they advertise how much that is per month .



    True monthly subscriptions offer it as such, correct?


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