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  1. #1
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    Why is innovation shunned?

    Post an innovation and let the MTBR community be the judge.

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  2. #2
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    Why is innovation shunned?-bikes-feet-wheels-clown.jpg
    What's wrong with him??

  3. #3
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    ^

    Low BB, long wheelbase, slack HTA, ultra short stem, and ultra short fork offset. Looks super modern, but maybe too modern? I'm ignorant to all besides what I'm on now, but I'm willing to open up to something that's a few millimeters and a few degrees different, not this. I'll wait for reports to come in.

    Steel is real. Composite wheels are all the rage too, especially with that compliance built in. I know people wonder how stealth 5.10 rubber would work; they can swap the rear tread out with Freeriders. The front having standard j-bend spokes, and plenty of them in case some break, is sure to please the "discerning cyclists". Heard people say long cranks are better, because they offer more leverage too, so it's good to see longer options, so they can go as long as possible before pedal striking.

    Bravo to this brand for not going with suspension, carbon, clipless, etc. They're crutches for lazy cheaters without fitness and skill--real athletes ride heavy steel rigid singlespeeds like this. I'll never buy from any brand that makes carbon FS bikes, since they allow idiots to go too fast and put trail access at risk. This is a human-powered sport, where the athlete should be the most important component of the competition. Even worse when they show up at the trails with the bike on the back of their big trucks, shuttling, and taking lifts, disregarding the signage regarding staying on legal/sanctioned trails.

    Shame that the chainstays are too long, because the ETT would've fit me perfectly. Crossed off my short list. I need something that can manual.

    *sarcasm alert*

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finch Platte View Post
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    I wonder what the internal diameter is on that rear rim? Also, instead of stopping to fix a flat, would you have to stop to tie the shoe?
    On MTBR, the reputation is infamous.

  5. #5
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post
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    A climb switch? I actually like that!
    On MTBR, the reputation is infamous.

  7. #7
    Nat
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post
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    That's actually kind of clever.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    That's actually kind of clever.
    Extra weight to the post. It would also change the geometry of your cockpit and frame by placing your pedal stroke further forward and height to the pedals. Other than that it’s ingenious.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post
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    That'd be great for the newer steep st° on flat. I see this catching on. I shun't you not.
    It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.

  10. #10
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    There is a fine line between innovation and fad. This is why the scientific method takes the current standard as the default in setting the null hypothesis. The burden of proof is on the new idea not the established one with the weight of more evidence. I think that is healthy. We need to balance real innovations against quakery, not just in MTB but in most fields.

  11. #11
    Nat
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    It would also change the geometry of your cockpit and frame by placing your pedal stroke further forward and height to the pedals.
    I think that's the idea. It seems similar in concept to some of these newer frames with the steep seat angle.

  12. #12
    Nat
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    Quote Originally Posted by hesitationpoint View Post
    There is a fine line between innovation and fad. This is why the scientific method takes the current standard as the default in setting the null hypothesis. The burden of proof is on the new idea not the established one with the weight of more evidence. I think that is healthy. We need to balance real innovations against quakery, not just in MTB but in most fields.
    That sounds fun.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    Extra weight to the post. It would also change the geometry of your cockpit and frame by placing your pedal stroke further forward and height to the pedals. Other than that it’s ingenious.
    Thanks for that, Mr. Obvious.
    What's wrong with him??

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    That sounds fun.
    But what is "quakery"? Only usable during an earthquake? Or is it something that just Quakers can use?
    What's wrong with him??

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    I wonder what the internal diameter is on that rear rim? Also, instead of stopping to fix a flat, would you have to stop to tie the shoe?
    Duplicate that rear wheel up front, and you can go on hiking-only trails.

  16. #16
    Nat
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finch Platte View Post
    But what is "quakery"? Only usable during an earthquake? Or is it something that just Quakers can use?
    I think it has something to do with religious persecution (which also sounds "fun").

  17. #17
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    I think it has something to do with oats.
    It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finch Platte View Post
    But what is "quakery"? Only usable during an earthquake? Or is it something that just Quakers can use?
    Tectonic plate shifts?

  19. #19
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    Gotta love the spelling police on every internet forum. Always a barrel of laughs.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finch Platte View Post
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    That's the Off-road version
    Put some running shows : road riding
    Put winter studded boots: FatBike time
    Put some sandal : Beach bike

    Still , if it's not Thru Axle & Boost , not worth it
    "There is a big difference between kneeling down and bending over" -FZ

  21. #21
    Nat
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    Quote Originally Posted by hesitationpoint View Post
    Gotta love the spelling police on every internet forum. Always a barrel of laughs.
    Speeling persecutors!

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finch Platte View Post
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    I actually bought one of these. Had to get rid of it because every time I’d descend something steep & rocky, applying the rear brake would cause me to stub my toe.
    =s
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  23. #23
    Nat
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus View Post
    I actually bought one of these. Had to get rid of it because every time I’d descend something steep & rocky, applying the rear brake would cause me to stub my toe.
    =s
    Ba dump.

  24. #24
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    I always thought that baby trailers were great, but this!!!


    Why is innovation shunned?-baby-bike.jpg
    MERCY! MERCY! MERCY!

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by hesitationpoint View Post
    This is why the scientific method takes the current standard as the default in setting the null hypothesis.
    Not exactly. Sometimes it does, but not always. Some sources state it this way with some authority. Others don't mention it at all. It just depends on exactly what you're studying/testing.

    https://www.spss-tutorials.com/null-hypothesis/
    https://opentextbc.ca/researchmethod...hesis-testing/
    https://explorable.com/null-hypothesis
    https://www.statisticshowto.datascie...ll-hypothesis/

    The burden of proof is on the new idea not the established one with the weight of more evidence.
    But, WRT the original question, I agree. If the old idea/product was sketchy to begin with, it shouldn't be too tough for the new one to be an improvement unless there are major technical limitations. But for something with a history of reliable service, it's going to take a bit more evidence to show that the new is better. I think this is compounded by the fact that in the bike industry, we're talking about more than just numbers and ideas. We're talking about tangible products that people spent hard-earned money on, and at a minimum, have invested some of themselves into the earning of that money. Some people will form an attachment to the item itself.

    A lot of innovation in the bike industry results in abandonment of old ideas/products, and those old things fade from use. Sometimes they never disappear entirely, but it becomes increasingly difficult to service them, especially with quality parts. Other things get abandoned in pretty short order. Which pushes consumers into a corner to purchase a whole new thing when maybe they would rather continue servicing their old thing. In many cases, this happens when there's a pretty subtle difference between the new thing and the old thing, and the change was driven more by the manufacturers than the consumers. So consumers get understandably grumpy and resistant to additional changes when the old thing they were happy with gets relegated to lower quality levels, or disappears entirely.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by fokof View Post
    That's the Off-road version
    Put some running shows : road riding
    Put winter studded boots: FatBike time
    Put some sandal : Beach bike

    Still , if it's not Thru Axle & Boost , not worth it
    What if you put some spiked high heels on it? Night riding bike?
    Quote Originally Posted by Oh My Sack! View Post
    Remember, there's always quilting and knitting if pedalling becomes too tough.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    I wonder what the internal diameter is on that rear rim? Also, instead of stopping to fix a flat, would you have to stop to tie the shoe?

    They only recommend a size 9 shoe on that rim, anything over that is supposed to corner poorly at speed.
    Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres: quod Belgiae, quod Celtae, et quod Aquitainae.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finch Platte View Post
    But what is "quakery"? Only usable during an earthquake? Or is it something that just Quakers can use?
    Quackery is when everyone with a chronic illness is pumped full of for-profit pharmaceutical drugs for the rest of their life.
    Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres: quod Belgiae, quod Celtae, et quod Aquitainae.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    Quackery is when everyone with a chronic illness is pumped full of for-profit pharmaceutical drugs for the rest of their life.
    This may be true but the question wasn’t “what is quackery?” ... and so it remains.
    =sParty
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  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus View Post
    This may be true but the question wasn’t “what is quackery?” ... and so it remains.
    =sParty
    Lol!
    I enjoy your command of the english language.
    It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finch Platte View Post
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    Boots spacing?
    Is this where I write something witty?

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by djlee View Post
    Boots spacing?
    Well played sir!
    No dig no whine

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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    What if you put some spiked high heels on it? Night riding bike?
    Streetwalking

  34. #34
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    Define innovation with respect to mountain bikes? Different is not necessarily innovative. Evolution may not be innovative either.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by robbnj View Post
    Duplicate that rear wheel up front, and you can go on hiking-only trails.
    Now that is brilliant!
    On MTBR, the reputation is infamous.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by djlee View Post
    Boots spacing?
    Props given...<slowclap>

  37. #37
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    Laterally moving pedal. Inspired by speed skating. Pedal moves along wave shaped groove, not free floating. Claims: reduces knee and hip pain, 2% more efficient, 7% more peak power.

  38. #38
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    Force multiplying cranks. Uses gears in the crank itself to produce a claimed increase torque equivalent to a 223.9mm crank, but with the path of a 166.5mm crank. 33% more torque at the 3 o'clock position.

    Only available on Möve Bikes.

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  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finch Platte View Post
    Thanks for that, Mr. Obvious.
    LOL
    Which I didn’t realize until Nat pointed it out. It must be a good design though if it’s intended purpose was so obvious even to the oblivious.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post
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    Laterally moving pedal. Inspired by speed skating. Pedal moves along wave shaped groove, not free floating. Claims: reduces knee and hip pain, 2% more efficient, 7% more peak power.
    I like this idea. Those of us who have to pedal a lot while MTB should be open to any gain in efficiency. I have all that motion spinning the cranks, years of trying to pay attention so I do more smooth circles/less lumpy squares. So if I'm cranking already, why not get more push out of it? That's why I buy light cranksets and wheels. I use to keep skinny tires on for that reason too, then tried some 2.2s and learned about how traction makes you faster. Currently up to 2.4 on the front, wicked sticky @ 20psi.
    oops I wasn't clipped in

  41. #41
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    Crestone dually. Powered by rubber bands!
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Why is innovation shunned?-crestone-sas-2-630x420.jpg  

    Less isn't MOAR

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by hesitationpoint View Post
    Gotta love the spelling police on every internet forum. Always a barrel of laughs.
    Oh, you'll get used to it around here.
    What's wrong with him??

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post

    Force multiplying cranks. Uses gears in the crank itself to produce a claimed increase torque equivalent to a 223.9mm crank, but with the path of a 166.5mm crank. 33% more torque at the 3 o'clock position.

    Only available on Möve Bikes.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I don't think this matters at all. Final drive gear ratio is all that matters. If you're putting out 200 watts in X gear at Y cadence it will put you at a given speed based on the final drive ratio. Gear ratios themselves are "leverage" regardless of the effective crank length.

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  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fajita Dave View Post
    I don't think this matters at all. Final drive gear ratio is all that matters. If you're putting out 200 watts in X gear at Y cadence it will put you at a given speed based on the final drive ratio. Gear ratios themselves are "leverage" regardless of the effective crank length.
    Seems you agree with the people who say that shortening the crank by 10mm is akin to going from a 32t chainring to 34t. That losing "leverage" in the crank merely increasing your gearing, similar to shifting to smaller toothed cogs in the rear, since the drivetrain is a series of levers (chainring adds leverage and cassette cogs add leverage).

    There's still the many # of people who don't see it that way and say long cranks = more leverage = ability to push a "bigger gear". Can't argue with this logic in strict context. Infamous MBA words of praise: "it's like I'm in a gear or two higher".

    Going by internet consensus, and so-called common sense... xD

    I'm not here to change people's minds, just testing my faith. Faith regarding how open people are vs how likely they are to shun things that don't jive with their beliefs. xD

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fajita Dave View Post
    I don't think this matters at all. Final drive gear ratio is all that matters. If you're putting out 200 watts in X gear at Y cadence it will put you at a given speed based on the final drive ratio. Gear ratios themselves are "leverage" regardless of the effective crank length.
    Crankarm length does play into into leverage ratio.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by root View Post
    Crankarm length does play into into leverage ratio.
    It does play into the leverage ratio but you can just choose different gears. I switched from 175mm crank arms to 170mm. Had to drop my chainwheel from 32t to 30t but now my knees are much more happy and I have the same effective gearing.

    I think if you like to mash at low cadence a longer crank arm would be preferred over short. I like to spin at 85-100.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post
    Seems you agree with the people who say that shortening the crank by 10mm is akin to going from a 32t chainring to 34t. That losing "leverage" in the crank merely increasing your gearing, similar to shifting to smaller toothed cogs in the rear, since the drivetrain is a series of levers (chainring adds leverage and cassette cogs add leverage).

    There's still the many # of people who don't see it that way and say long cranks = more leverage = ability to push a "bigger gear". Can't argue with this logic in strict context. Infamous MBA words of praise: "it's like I'm in a gear or two higher".

    Going by internet consensus, and so-called common sense... xD

    I'm not here to change people's minds, just testing my faith. Faith regarding how open people are vs how likely they are to shun things that don't jive with their beliefs. xD
    I assume any advantage gained with the crankset will be soaked up with added weight and mechanical friction. More and more I like the idea of fewer moving parts.
    MERCY! MERCY! MERCY!

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by MOJO K View Post
    I assume any advantage gained with the crankset will be soaked up with added weight and mechanical friction. More and more I like the idea of fewer moving parts.
    am I the only one who watched that video and thought that anyone riding one of those hard is going to be smoking bb's in pretty short order?

  50. #50
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    I followed up on the CyFly and I got the impression that the crank and ring are designed to work as a system. The crank helps push that non-biopace elliptical chainring, with much more ovality than current offerings, without compromising ground clearance.

    https://www.velomotion.de/2018/06/te...-neu-erfunden/

    The reviewer seemed to peg it as something between a regular bike and an ebike, also saying that it works better with a mashing pedal stroke, over a circular one.

    To put it in other words: it exaggerates the intended benefits of an oval ring. The crank is an enabler, to allow a mere mortal to push such an odd ring.

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post
    Seems you agree with the people who say that shortening the crank by 10mm is akin to going from a 32t chainring to 34t. That losing "leverage" in the crank merely increasing your gearing, similar to shifting to smaller toothed cogs in the rear, since the drivetrain is a series of levers (chainring adds leverage and cassette cogs add leverage).

    There's still the many # of people who don't see it that way and say long cranks = more leverage = ability to push a "bigger gear". Can't argue with this logic in strict context. Infamous MBA words of praise: "it's like I'm in a gear or two higher".

    Going by internet consensus, and so-called common sense... xD

    I'm not here to change people's minds, just testing my faith. Faith regarding how open people are vs how likely they are to shun things that don't jive with their beliefs. xD
    I rode cranks of 200mm-185mm in length for over 2 decades (1994-2017) and used to get in arguments all the time here on MTBR surrounding their value or lack thereof. Eventually I came to believe that while neither short nor long has a power advantage over the other, long cranks definitely enjoy a torque advantage. Sadly most of those who argued with me never actually experienced long cranks, they simply claimed that crank length makes no difference since gearing can change to accommodate the difference in arm leverage. I believe they're right with regard to outright power, but as for torque, they don't understand what they're missing. And they can't/won't until/unless they actually experience long cranks.
    =sParty
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  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post
    Post an innovation and let the MTBR community be the judge.

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    I have ridden several saddles that I found to be azz hatchets, now this one takes that to a whole other level.

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by MOJO K View Post
    I always thought that baby trailers were great, but this!!!


    Click image for larger version. 

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    That's one way to teach your kid the finer points of hood surfing at an early age.

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCheesehead View Post
    I have ridden several saddles that I found to be azz hatchets, now this one takes that to a whole other level.
    You'll note the name on that saddle is "essax" but I think this is actually a misspell of "Ass-Axe."
    =sParty
    Last edited by Sparticus; 11-01-2018 at 09:02 PM.
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    Props for a thread that provokes interesting responses.

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post
    Seems you agree with the people who say that shortening the crank by 10mm is akin to going from a 32t chainring to 34t. That losing "leverage" in the crank merely increasing your gearing, similar to shifting to smaller toothed cogs in the rear, since the drivetrain is a series of levers (chainring adds leverage and cassette cogs add leverage).

    There's still the many # of people who don't see it that way and say long cranks = more leverage = ability to push a "bigger gear". Can't argue with this logic in strict context. Infamous MBA words of praise: "it's like I'm in a gear or two higher".

    Going by internet consensus, and so-called common sense... xD
    You're simply referring to the difference between gear inches and gain ratio's. Tire size makes a difference too. https://www.sheldonbrown.com/gear-calc.html
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    Innovation is looked skeptically. There are lots of people/companies willing to sell anything to we are willing to drop money on. They will claim it so great, but often is garbage. Of course in that mix there is true innovation so seperating the wheat from the chaff is hard. Some guys have no problem dropping money on stuff that fails to pan out, but others don't want to wast time and money. Other simply don't need a 2% performance benefit at the cost of swapping out all the parts and bikes they own. Some others are just happy where they are and want to maintain what has worked for years and don't want to run the most modern crap.

    For a long time I rode a 26" HT with rim brakes. The bike was new and fresh in 2002 when I built it and then I stopped riding. I started up again in 2012 and I did not want to spend $$ on a new bike. So I kept riding the old one for 4 years. Lots of miles and in the end it became hard to find parts to keep it going. Even simple things like tires. So I was forced to upgrade. This what some riders complain about. Being forced to upgrade because of some new thing that takes their perfectly fine older bike and makes it impossible to keep it going. So instead of a $30 part replacement it turns into a $5000 bill for a new bike since you can't get the $30 part any more.

    Example... Try to find Octolink II bottom brackets. They are very hard to find in any high quality spec. Now everything is different standards and not really that much better and so soon as you start changing one part it can cascade down to every part on the bike.
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    This reminds of a quip made by a certain social commentator regarding the F-35 fighter plane, "They were so busy making it innovative that they forgot to make it work."
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post
    Post an innovation and let the MTBR community be the judge.

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    Innovation isn't shunned, but a big knife up my arse is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    Innovation isn't shunned, but a big knife up my arse is.
    LOL I was thinking the same thing. Don't need no dorsal up my portal.
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    After a look at the EssaX saddle website I’m still not sure what the thing is supposed to do. It tells you where to sit? Isolates hip movement? There’s really no point to the point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOJO K View Post
    After a look at the EssaX saddle website I’m still not sure what the thing is supposed to do. It tells you where to sit? Isolates hip movement? There’s really no point to the point.
    Seems like it would only work if you rode naked.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOJO K View Post
    After a look at the EssaX saddle website I’m still not sure what the thing is supposed to do. It tells you where to sit? Isolates hip movement? There’s really no point to the point.
    Claimed to locate the sit bones to the right place to spread weight more evenly, improve alignment of the legs/knees, and reduce hip rotation and rocking which results in comfort and increased efficiency.




    Why is innovation shunned?-l2-series-black-seat-black-rails.jpg
    Infinity seat: claimed to reduce pressure and pelvic inflammation, hyped to be ride tested over ultra long distances (e.g. RAAM/Race Across America).

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    Some of these seat designs make me cringe just looking at them.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post
    Claimed to locate the sit bones to the right place to spread weight more evenly, improve alignment of the legs/knees, and reduce hip rotation and rocking which results in comfort and increased efficiency.




    Click image for larger version. 

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    Infinity seat: claimed to reduce pressure and pelvic inflammation, hyped to be ride tested over ultra long distances (e.g. RAAM/Race Across America).
    You wouldn’t want to use that saddle naked. Your balls would slide forward into that notch and then...

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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    Some of these seat designs make me cringe just looking at them.
    I have a similar reaction. Like a scared turtle.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeDee View Post
    Seems like it would only work if you rode naked.
    Then don't buy the white version. Does it come in brown?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post

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    I use one of these so i can bunnyhop with flat pedals.
    "Things that are complex are not useful, Things that are useful are simple."
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    Those saddles should be moved to the BDSM forum.
    Bicycles don't have motors.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post
    Claimed to locate the sit bones to the right place to spread weight more evenly, improve alignment of the legs/knees, and reduce hip rotation and rocking which results in comfort and increased efficiency.
    That's what I said...The thing is that all of those issues are corrected with proper bike fit and technique. Put that saddle low and forward, and having a 2" fin digging at your anus isn't going to align anything.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MOJO K View Post
    Put that saddle low and forward, and having a 2" fin digging at your anus isn't going to align anything.
    It may align ones attitude in a hurry. Either that or give one an attitude.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

  71. #71
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    frickin a on that saddle

    crying out loud, when doing an epic I sometimes scoot forward, scoot back, scoot to the side, to rest my sitbones and prevent numbness. that saddle throws all that out the door. ergonomic my ....{arse}
    "Put your seatbelt back on or get out and sit in the middle of that circle of death." - Johnny Scoot

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    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post
    Post an innovation and let the MTBR community be the judge.

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    I don't understand the premise of your post. Your title asks a question, then you post a photo you think is an innovation and wait for the "trolls" to shun the "innovation". Do you think you'll get a mix of opinion for that saddle or are you hoping to prove your point that we're all narrow minded? I'm all for trying new things, but I don't think I'll bother trying a saddle that trys to move pressure from my sit bones to my anus.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatGuyontheTrail View Post
    I don't understand the premise of your post. Your title asks a question, then you post a photo you think is an innovation and wait for the "trolls" to shun the "innovation". Do you think you'll get a mix of opinion for that saddle or are you hoping to prove your point that we're all narrow minded? I'm all for trying new things, but I don't think I'll bother trying a saddle that trys to move pressure from my sit bones to my anus.
    To focus on the fundamentals.

    Take away the guys hyping the product.

    Examine the responses gained from just analyzing the product independently. Perhaps verifying the claims through "mental simulation".

    It's expected that there's innovations that solve problems that only some people have. Interesting to see the perspective of the people who don't have such problems...

    Also, any exposure can be considered good exposure. These things stay in people's mind. When a reiteration comes out, people tend to think "what's old is new again." Also, if they know anyone who might have the problem these innovations are trying to fix, they can refer them to it. Already have a few bites (the people recognizing a good idea).

    As a side effect, people browsing this thread learn that there's a number of people who have exaggerated fears about pointy things near their butthole, with one mentioning its use while naked. Odd bug to have within their "mental simulators". I bet they think "everybody", or a very large majority has the same bug.

    *shrug* I rather know, as opposed to staying ignorant. Was hoping more people would post innovations. The rubber band one... hah. The platform made of inner tubes... putting a baby on it as cargo... not sure whose idea it was, but I imagine they were very proud/happy of that baby and that it was more important/beautiful than the innovation itself. The cargo bike itself looks like it would work; perhaps it'd work a bit more conveniently than a design that carried its cargo behind the rider.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post
    Post an innovation and let the MTBR community be the judge.

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    Ok.. I ain't going to lie that could be the very very very best saddle ever designed ..and still basically nobody in their right mind would have one.. because it would look to all the world like it was going up your butt... 100% hard NO... they can keep that innovation..

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    this is clearly the innovation we need... hard to steal? hard to find I suppose if you forget where you left it??

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    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post

    As a side effect, people browsing this thread learn that there's a number of people who have exaggerated fears about pointy things near their butthole.

    I knew that before browsing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by atarione View Post
    Ok.. I ain't going to lie that could be the very very very best saddle ever designed ..and still basically nobody in their right mind would have one.. because it would look to all the world like it was going up your butt... 100% hard NO... they can keep that innovation..
    This reminds me of the attitude behind why basketball players stopped shooting free throws underhanded, considering that there was evidence that it was a more successful shooting style (e.g. Rick Barry).

    So this shunning is due to fears of undesirable connotations--being related to looking like a granny, or being related to "looking to all the world like it was going up your butt".

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    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post
    This reminds me of the attitude behind why basketball players stopped shooting free throws underhanded, considering that there was evidence that it was a more successful shooting style (e.g. Rick Barry).

    So this shunning is due to fears of undesirable connotations--being related to looking like a granny, or being related to "looking to all the world like it was going up your butt".


    yup... if it looks lame .. I ain't using it.. I'll take cool looking 5% less good over fool looking 5% better any day.. Plus I'm slow as heck anyways.. so it don't matter that much..

    I'm also 150% in favor of not shooting free throws underhanded... I'd stop watching if they went back to that.. =p

    being "cool" trumps progress sometimes..

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    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post
    So this shunning is due to fears of undesirable connotations--being related to looking like a granny, or being related to "looking to all the world like it was going up your butt".
    Oh. I thought this was a joke thread. I'm disappointed.



    I'll take something that's been refined over multiple iterations and masterfully executed over the next big innovation. If the innovation is truly fantastic i'll get a better version by waiting for market adoption, if it's plus tires then i save my time and money by ignoring it.

    Often innovations are different but equivalent. Those take hold thanks to marketing and weirdos who want to be first to the next big thing. That's obnoxious.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post
    *shrug* I rather know, as opposed to staying ignorant. Was hoping more people would post innovations. The rubber band one... hah. The platform made of inner tubes... putting a baby on it as cargo... not sure whose idea it was, but I imagine they were very proud/happy of that baby and that it was more important/beautiful than the innovation itself. The cargo bike itself looks like it would work; perhaps it'd work a bit more conveniently than a design that carried its cargo behind the rider.
    If that was your intention, rather than name it "Why is innovation shunned." and not "Post innovativations."
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    Post MTB Innovations:

    Here







    Happy?
    Grumpy bastards. There’s always going to be the haters and the flamers. This thread was going along nicely until a hater showed up.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    Here







    Happy?
    Grumpy bastards. There’s always going to be the haters and the flamers. This thread was going along nicely until a hater showed up.
    Not a hater at all. Just asking a question. The original thread title doesn't imply that the OP is asking for new innovations to be posted, but instead asking why innovation is shunned. Tell you what. I'll just shut up and ride and let you have your little kingdom the way you like it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    Here







    Happy?
    Grumpy bastards. There’s always going to be the haters and the flamers. This thread was going along nicely until a hater showed up.
    I'm not sure who you are referring to as a hater, I don't think you mean ThatGuy. Kind of seems like the hater is the guy who started the thread not liking the responses he got. If he wants to buy me that saddle and send it to me, I'll try it out. But I'm not going to spend money on it when I see major problems with it, like it would reduce my ability to move around on the saddle, side to side and especially returning from having moved back behind it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oh My Sack! View Post
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    on a serious note- I just like to keep things simple. bikes getting more and more complex, no matter how much more capable and fun they are, rubs me the wrong way for some reason. adding all these gizmos to a bike is something I will begrudgingly do eventually if they prove themselves worth the expense and hassle, but I would rather err on the side of a simple machine that performs or does not perform based mostly on the skill of the rider than the sophistication of the tech.

    I admit that I have a kind of Platonic ideal form of what a bicycle looks like in my head and it feels painful and wrong to deviate from that too readily. that's probably dumb, but it's part of me.

    I am riding a rigid singlespeed with a rigid seatpost. I have a dropper post, a 120mm fork, and the parts to put a 1x10 drivetrain on my bike, and I could convert my bike to use all those things in about an hour in my garage. most of the time, all those parts just gather dust. I can't seem to "allow" myself the "luxury" of riding a bike with more moving parts on it. this is just part of my personality and the personality of many of my fellow riders, but it's not the perspective of the majority of riders and the market they support. that's fine, but I hope it explains the "why innovation is shunned." not everyone wants to jump on board with the newest thing and open their wallets when good enough is good enough for having fun on two wheels.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mack_turtle View Post
    on a serious note- I just like to keep things simple. bikes getting more and more complex, no matter how much more capable and fun they are, rubs me the wrong way for some reason. adding all these gizmos to a bike is something I will begrudgingly do eventually if they prove themselves worth the expense and hassle, but I would rather err on the side of a simple machine that performs or does not perform based mostly on the skill of the rider than the sophistication of the tech.

    I am riding a rigid singlespeed with a rigid seatpost. I have a dropper post, a 120mm fork, and the parts to put a 1x10 drivetrain on my bike, and I could convert my bike to use all those things in about an hour in my garage. most of the time, all those parts just gather dust. I can't seem to "allow" myself the "luxury" of riding a bike with more moving parts on it. this is just part of my personality and the personality of many of my fellow riders, but it's not the perspective of the majority of riders and the market they support. that's fine, but I hope it explains the "why innovation is shunned." not everyone wants to jump on board with the newest thing and open their wallets when good enough is good enough for having fun on two wheels.
    I agree. I miss the old days of when you could buy a bike and swap parts over from your old bike without having to deal with so many different standards. I'm picking up a rigid SS today! But I will have to admit, I'm also getting a suspension fork with it in case I decide to go that route. And it will accommodate 29 along with the 27.5+ it comes with. And you can easily convert it to gears, though I don't plan to do that. So, it is a simple bike with lots of options.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oh My Sack! View Post
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    I have a blue-collar mentality that you should not buy cheap junk. buy once, cry once and all that. the frustration comes with you buy something like a $500 hub (that's a lot of money to most people) that was designed to last and work for decades and come to find that it's obsolete and useless in fewer than five years.

    things like that make me skeptical- is this an improvement that is going to really benefit the average (or below average) rider? it's probably beneficial when you're buying a brand new bike every other year, or if you're somehow profiting from competitive riding as someone in the industry as a rider or retailer, but not so much to use enthusiasts and tinkerers. this is why I appreciate brands like Surly, Salsa, and Problem Solvers (all QBP brands, which is probably not a coincidence) that make bikes with this issue in mind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mack_turtle View Post
    I have a blue-collar mentality that you should not buy cheap junk. buy once, cry once and all that. the frustration comes with you buy something like a $500 hub (that's a lot of money to most people) that was designed to last and work for decades and come to find that it's obsolete and useless in fewer than five years.

    things like that make me skeptical- is this an improvement that is going to really benefit the average (or below average) rider? it's probably beneficial when you're buying a brand new bike every other year, or if you're somehow profiting from competitive riding as someone in the industry as a rider or retailer, but not so much to use enthusiasts and tinkerers. this is why I appreciate brands like Surly, Salsa, and Problem Solvers (all QBP brands, which is probably not a coincidence) that make bikes with this issue in mind.
    A lot of good points Mack. My experience, until just recently, had been that the meaningful innovations cycled pretty neatly with the life expectancy of a bike. Riding hard I would just about use up a bike in 4-5 years . I'd change out the drive train every season, but after a couple seasons, suspension, wheels, brakes... everything worked poorly. In that time, the industry moved forward enough that buying new would make a lot of sense and the capability of the new bike was always significantly better than the last one. I'm easier on my gear now and it last much longer. I'm also not sure we've seen a great leap forward in the last few years.


    Perhaps a good counter to Ninja's question is, what do you think was the last big innovation in mountain biking? What are the things we've embraced?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatGuyontheTrail View Post
    Not a hater at all. Just asking a question. The original thread title doesn't imply that the OP is asking for new innovations to be posted, but instead asking why innovation is shunned. Tell you what. I'll just shut up and ride and let you have your little kingdom the way you like it.
    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    I'm not sure who you are referring to as a hater, I don't think you mean ThatGuy. Kind of seems like the hater is the guy who started the thread not liking the responses he got. If he wants to buy me that saddle and send it to me, I'll try it out. But I'm not going to spend money on it when I see major problems with it, like it would reduce my ability to move around on the saddle, side to side and especially returning from having moved back behind it.
    My comment wasn’t directed at you TheGuyOnTheTrail. Someone above you started the hate. A good thread suddenly turned because someone disagreed with the OP’s intent.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mack_turtle View Post
    I have a blue-collar mentality that you should not buy cheap junk. buy once, cry once and all that. the frustration comes with you buy something like a $500 hub (that's a lot of money to most people) that was designed to last and work for decades and come to find that it's obsolete and useless in fewer than five years.

    Not many people ride a bike that's decades old though because so many improvements have been made since then. Who wants to go back to v-brakes?

    That said I have a 30 y/o road bike and I could easily transfer most of the parts to a different frame, or get modern parts for the old frame. Same with my old Surly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curveball View Post
    This reminds of a quip made by a certain social commentator regarding the F-35 fighter plane, "They were so busy making it innovative that they forgot to make it work."
    Or, in the case of that Ass-Axe™ seat, "Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether they could, they didn't stop to think if they should." — Ian Malcolm, Jurassic Park
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    Makes more sense for people who buy a whole bike every few years. My bike has been the same bike that constantly evolves with a new frame here, a different wheel or fork there, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOJO K View Post
    I'm also not sure we've seen a great leap forward in the last few years.
    Hey MOJO K, before I respond directly to your statement above, I'll mention that I've been riding mountain bikes since '85 when I bought a (used) '84 Diamond Back Mean Streak which is now on display at the Westfir Lodge a couple miles west of downtown Oakridge, OR. Point being I've been at this for a while. I've probably owned 22-25 mountain bicycles (maybe more) since I took the sport up.

    Now to your comment about not being sure we've seen a great leap forward in the last few years.

    My latest full suspension bike is an '18 Guerrilla Gravity "The Smash" which employs a decades old rear suspension design (Horst Link). So it's not that.

    But the bike is lightyears ahead of my previous FS sled, a 2011 DW link Turner Sultan. Both these bikes' frames are made of aluminum. So it's not carbon fiber. When I bought the Sultan, I remember thinking, "This is the most awesome bike EVAR! Probably be the last bike I'll ever buy!"

    No. The following seven years produced so many changes to mountain bikes that when I bought my Smash this year, I wondered, "What my NEXT bike will be like!"

    My 2011 Sultan lacked:
    • Thru axles
    • Dropper seatpost
    • Modern frame geometry*
    • A 1x drivetrain
    • The ability to accommodate wide tires (ie: 2.5")
    • Frame construction that is up to the type of riding that's common today

    *By modern frame geo, I mean steep STA, slack HTA, long TT, short stem, wider bars, etc.

    The 2011 Turner Sultan was state of the art at the time.

    Don't get me wrong, I absolutely loved my Sultan -- in its day. But once I got my first Guerrilla Gravity bike (the Smash is my second), I was absolutely blown away at the degree to which it eclipsed my Sultan in every performance department. Particularly geometry changes, but I'd put the dropper post up there with disc brakes in terms of off-road cycling advances that changed the sport significantly.

    And yes, I know I could have put a dropper on my Sultan. In fact, I did. Beside the point. Droppers were in their infancy in '11. My first dropper had a lever under the saddle to activate it. Now I use a "lefty" style dropper lever which goes in the spot formerly occupied by the front derailleur shift lever.

    Don't get me started on front derailleurs, or as I've always preferred to call them, front defailures.

    In summary today's bikes are awesome -- there are so many excellent choices it's nearly hard to go wrong. I'm sure you agree that in contrast to bikes of merely 5 years ago, today's bikes offer huge improvements all around.
    =sParty
    disciplesofdirt.org

    We don't quit riding because we get old.
    We get old because we quit riding.

  93. #93
    the discerning hooligan
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus View Post
    Hey MOJO K, before I respond directly to your statement above, I'll mention that I've been riding mountain bikes since '85 when I bought a (used) '84 Diamond Back Mean Streak which is now on display at the Westfir Lodge a couple miles west of downtown Oakridge, OR. Point being I've been at this for a while. I've probably owned 22-25 mountain bicycles (maybe more) since I took the sport up.

    Now to your comment about not being sure we've seen a great leap forward in the last few years.

    My latest full suspension bike is an '18 Guerrilla Gravity "The Smash" which employs a decades old rear suspension design (Horst Link). So it's not that.

    But the bike is lightyears ahead of my previous FS sled, a 2011 DW link Turner Sultan. Both these bikes' frames are made of aluminum. So it's not carbon fiber. When I bought the Sultan, I remember thinking, "This is the most awesome bike EVAR! Probably be the last bike I'll ever buy!"

    No. The following seven years produced so many changes to mountain bikes that when I bought my Smash this year, I wondered, "What my NEXT bike will be like!"

    My 2011 Sultan lacked:
    • Thru axles
    • Dropper seatpost
    • Modern frame geometry*
    • A 1x drivetrain
    • The ability to accommodate wide tires (ie: 2.5")
    • Frame construction that is up to the type of riding that's common today

    *By modern frame geo, I mean steep STA, slack HTA, long TT, short stem, wider bars, etc.

    The 2011 Turner Sultan was state of the art at the time.

    Don't get me wrong, I absolutely loved my Sultan -- in its day. But once I got my first Guerrilla Gravity bike (the Smash is my second), I was absolutely blown away at the degree to which it eclipsed my Sultan in every performance department. Particularly geometry changes, but I'd put the dropper post up there with disc brakes in terms of off-road cycling advances that changed the sport significantly.

    And yes, I know I could have put a dropper on my Sultan. In fact, I did. Beside the point. Droppers were in their infancy in '11. My first dropper had a lever under the saddle to activate it. Now I use a "lefty" style dropper lever which goes in the spot formerly occupied by the front derailleur shift lever.

    Don't get me started on front derailleurs, or as I've always preferred to call them, front defailures.

    In summary today's bikes are awesome -- there are so many excellent choices it's nearly hard to go wrong. I'm sure you agree that in contrast to bikes of merely 5 years ago, today's bikes offer huge improvements all around.
    =sParty
    I've been riding Horst link bikes since "99, I've owned 3 dropper post and never used any of them ( I can't see myself ever buying another) , I've used thru axles ( or thru bolts for free riding) since 07, and my On-One Summer Season frame had a 66.5 deg. HA in 2010, and I switched back to a 2x10 on my current bike because 1x11 just doesn't last here in CT with all the rocks and the reduced ground clearance ( I also never had a problem setting up a front derailleur ) I think the big thing about 1x drive is really the narrow/wide chainring. I also have no idea what you're getting at about frame construction....modern flow trails with sculpted berms and transitions are way more gentle than the primitive trails we crushed 10 years ago and I always had a bike up to the task. Maybe you've been buying the wrong bikes up till now?

    UST and the when they got 29ers to ride well ….there's a discussion to be had there. There have been a lot of incremental changes that make sense. The Horst link patent opening up has changed the market. But no, there has not been a great leap forward.


    I bought a new Diamondback Ascent in '86...my memory is just as long as yours even if my experience and viewpoint are different.
    MERCY! MERCY! MERCY!

  94. #94
    EAT MORE GRIME
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    Diamond Back Ascent, my first MTB way back in the day, I tore that thing thru the woods so long and hard...man....
    "Put your seatbelt back on or get out and sit in the middle of that circle of death." - Johnny Scoot

  95. #95
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    Best innovation I’ve had on a bicycle were inverted forks, rear shock linkage, and a 200cc 2-stroke engine. I’d have preferred an electric start but you have to draw the line somewhere when you’re innovating. /sarcasm

    I’ve watched riders shun e-bikes, clipless pedals, flat pedals, 3x10 drivetrains, fat tires, plus tires, 27.5” wheels, 29” wheels, 26” wheels, 1x11 drivetrains, hydration packs, water bottles, and the list goes on. What is innovative in one segment of mnt biking is pure stupidity in another. Figure out what type of rider you are and innovate in ways that improve your riding.

    After decades of English bunny hopping my newest innovation is learning the American. I’ve cleared large obstacles with the English, but my taste in trails and speeds has changed.

  96. #96
    Let's just wheelie!
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    My comment wasn’t directed at you TheGuyOnTheTrail. Someone above you started the hate. A good thread suddenly turned because someone disagreed with the OP’s intent.
    That's wierd, because before you edited your post, you had a image of a thread labeled something like "Show us your innovations." Which came immediately after my post asking why the OP didn't title their post "Post Innovations." But whatever.
    Unicycle, promoting unity and cycling by being hard to ride since 1866.

  97. #97
    Self Appointed Judge&Jury
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatGuyontheTrail View Post
    That's wierd, because before you edited your post, you had a image of a thread labeled something like "Show us your innovations." Which came immediately after my post asking why the OP didn't title their post "Post Innovations." But whatever.
    I never edited my post. And that post wasn’t directed at you even though it seemed it was as I explained following that post. I can assure you though that it was never edited. I don’t know where you saw what you claim you saw. Maybe someone with some tech skills, like a mod could go in and confirm my post was never edited. Maybe you saw what you claim in someone else’s post and mistakenly thought it was mine. Post #81 is the one you claim I edited. Any technical gurus out there that can look in and see it was never edited? Not that it matters, I just don’t like to be falsely called out on something that never happened.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

  98. #98
    Cycologist
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    Hey man, what pressure are you running in your frame?



    (this was posted in the Craigslist WTF? forum)
    Quote Originally Posted by Oh My Sack! View Post
    Remember, there's always quilting and knitting if pedalling becomes too tough.

  99. #99
    Self Appointed Judge&Jury
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post


    (this was posted in the Craigslist WTF? forum)

    I give that a 5 rating.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

  100. #100
    Let's just wheelie!
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    I never edited my post. And that post wasn’t directed at you even though it seemed it was as I explained following that post. I can assure you though that it was never edited. I don’t know where you saw what you claim you saw. Maybe someone with some tech skills, like a mod could go in and confirm my post was never edited. Maybe you saw what you claim in someone else’s post and mistakenly thought it was mine. Post #81 is the one you claim I edited. Any technical gurus out there that can look in and see it was never edited? Not that it matters, I just don’t like to be falsely called out on something that never happened.
    Not edited, but the image originally present in post 81 is no longer there or in any of the quoted posts. If you didn't pull that image, I apologize for suggesting that you didn.
    Unicycle, promoting unity and cycling by being hard to ride since 1866.

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