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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatGuyontheTrail View Post
    Not edited, but the image originally present in post 81 is no longer there or in any of the quoted posts. If you didn't pull that image, I apologize for suggesting that you didn.
    Apology accepted, but to reiterate there was never a photo there. I purposely gave that post a large space between my next sentence as part of the suspense.

    Hereís a screen shot of the post for reference. Never was a photo there.

    Why is innovation shunned?-db693649-398d-4d15-9564-70dccb76505a.jpg
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

  2. #102
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    And now, back to our regularly scheduled program.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post


    (this was posted in the Craigslist WTF? forum)
    It's being developed by Ford....found a pic. of the working prototype...

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    Can I be the one to say it?

    Looks flexy.
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  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post


    (this was posted in the Craigslist WTF? forum)
    Looks far superior to one of those silly aftermarket car racks for transporting your bike. Love the "tune-able suspension charactics" concept. Genius, I tell you.
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  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by endurosquatch View Post
    This is puzzling.

    Droppers were not in their infancy in '11.

    I had a remote dropper on my 2005 5Spot. In 2006.
    PowerPost would be the 'infancy' of MTB dropper posts. 1995ish.




    Also, evolution and innovation aren't the same thing.
    True innovation is almost non-existent. Goofy seat designs aren't it.
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  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by MOJO K View Post
    It's being developed by Ford....found a pic. of the working prototype...

    Name:  th.jpg
Views: 413
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    Can I be the one to say it?

    Looks flexy.
    But worth it. I filled mine with helium and it weighs negative 2 pounds! It literally "floats" down the trails.*


    *not for use where thorns may be present. Or with a rider onboard.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oh My Sack! View Post
    Remember, there's always quilting and knitting if pedalling becomes too tough.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vandals View Post
    Best innovation Iíve had on a bicycle were inverted forks, rear shock linkage, and a 200cc 2-stroke engine. Iíd have preferred an electric start but you have to draw the line somewhere when youíre innovating. /sarcasm

    Iíve watched riders shun e-bikes
    not sure if serious. I know this has been discussed to death, but an emtb is not a mountain bike. I'll accept any gizmo you can put on a bike to make it more capable and more fun, but as soon as you put a motor on it, all bets are off. keep that sh*t off our trails, too.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by mack_turtle View Post
    not sure if serious. I know this has been discussed to death, but an emtb is not a mountain bike. I'll accept any gizmo you can put on a bike to make it more capable and more fun, but as soon as you put a motor on it, all bets are off. keep that sh*t off our trails, too.
    Some of the motor integrations are pretty innovative. If an electric assist gets or keeps more people biking then I donít see why it is shunned. If it is just an electric dirt bike then I agree that it shouldnít be on a bike only trail.

  9. #109
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    I don't think we need more people on my local trails. it's already full of idiots who constantly sanitize the features and ride muddy trails. these same idiots with motorized bikes would make the problem much worse.

    while we're at it, lets use drones to fly discs more accurately into the goals at disc golf courses. I'll start riding a Segway in the local road foot races instead of running. why bother reading when you can just watch the movie? instead of hitting the gold ball with a club, i'll just drive the cart over to the hole and drop it in by hand- hole in one, every time!

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hikers in the 1980s
    I don't think we need mountain bikers on my local trails. it's already full of us good hikers, we don't need bicyclists which would ruin the trails. these idiots with bicycles would make the problem much worse.
    Modified that for ya, Mack. AKA "I've got mine" Syndrome.

    Sorry my friend, but this thing is all perspective. There are idiots within every discipline. As my favorite USFS trail manager has said, "It's not what we ride, it's how we ride." This land manager hikes, mountain bikes and rides off-road motorcycles and more. On PNW singletrack. Where legal only, of course. He's responsible for creating new local trails on USFS land in recent years. He builds bridges, literally and figuratively. He inspires many of us to get out and steward the land.
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  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by mack_turtle View Post
    I don't think we need more people on my local trails. it's already full of idiots who constantly sanitize the features and ride muddy trails. these same idiots with motorized bikes would make the problem much worse.

    while we're at it, lets use drones to fly discs more accurately into the goals at disc golf courses. I'll start riding a Segway in the local road foot races instead of running. why bother reading when you can just watch the movie? instead of hitting the gold ball with a club, i'll just drive the cart over to the hole and drop it in by hand- hole in one, every time!
    I agree that the way to limit the number of people on trails is to make mountain biking less appealing or less enjoyable. Personally I donít believe that anything more advanced than a 1980ís era BMX has any place on my trails. I believe that if we can make biking into a thoroughly negative experience the trails will be empty and my LBS wonít have a backlog of work that would prevent them from tuning up my Schwinn Stingray before the next Enduro race.

  12. #112
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    time will prove me right, and prove the e-mtb apologists wrong. there's nothing I can do about it so I'll stop complaining. I've said my bit for the record.

    I'll never understand this drive to wussify everything. give everyone a participation trophy for buying an expensive toy.

    get off my lawn

  13. #113
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    Adding a motor to a bicycle hasn't been an innovation for well over a century.
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  14. #114
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    Innovation shunned *gasp*. Amazing how some ingenious innovations never made it past the prototype.

    Why is innovation shunned?-0a72b474-abf1-430f-83f7-e9c8ca826864.jpeg
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mack_turtle View Post
    time will prove me right, and prove the e-mtb apologists wrong. there's nothing I can do about it so I'll stop complaining. I've said my bit for the record.

    I'll never understand this drive to wussify everything. give everyone a participation trophy for buying an expensive toy.

    get off my lawn
    The current trend in Europe and sales in the US is clearly proving you wrong. There's no reason to believe that will change unless it's made illegal against popular demand.

    It's about recreation; not some macho BS to "wussify everything." No one cares about your macho attitude and nor do they want a participation trophy. Just to get out an enjoy themselves.

    I don't have an e-bike and currently have no intention on getting one. I recognize it's just a pedal assit bike and doesn't do any more or less harm to trails than any other user.

    New e-bikes aren't an innovation anyway.

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fajita Dave View Post
    The current trend in Europe and sales in the US is clearly proving you wrong. There's no reason to believe that will change unless it's made illegal against popular demand.
    I am not saying they are not selling. I am saying that the overall effect on mountain biking will be negative. Yes that is my subjective judgment and I stand by it. Putting motors on anything and everything is dragging humanity down. there's nothing macho about telling people that they would be better off in the long run by challenging their bodies rather than relying on technology to make everything as easy as possible. it will also be better for the rest of us in the long run to keep those shitty motorized bikes off public trails for a variety of reasons that have already been discussed a million times.

    Why is innovation shunned?-dcb699613957429f9a8b33ee87cb3cd0.jpg

  18. #118
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    If you think about it, most inventions (including bicycles) were designed to reduce work. Pick something around you and see if it qualifies.

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    If you think about it, most inventions (including bicycles) were designed to reduce work. Pick something around you and see if it qualifies.
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  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    If you think about it, most inventions (including bicycles) were designed to reduce work. Pick something around you and see if it qualifies.
    But let's face it, a lot of it was designed so we can do more work, not less!
    Quote Originally Posted by Oh My Sack! View Post
    Remember, there's always quilting and knitting if pedalling becomes too tough.

  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    But let's face it, a lot of it was designed so we can do more work, not less!
    Hmm, what you two imply is similar, but I suppose there are slight differences:

    - Do a standard task with less energy/effort/time spent.

    - Do more with the same energy/effort/time spent.

    The amount of how much more you can do with the same effort can gauge how great the innovation is. Probably why "innovations" like Boost are criticized--there's just not much gained, especially considering for how much you pay to upgrade to it (frame and wheels, and the cost of divesting).

    Makes me wonder which things motivate/inspire you to put out even more effort. I think this feeling, for me, is the "new bike stoke effect". "Innovations" that really change things up for the better, being very well suited for the task at hand, give me this motivation to put out more effort for at least a couple seasons. Pretty rare/special to find something so awesome that you go out of your way to look for opportunities to put it to use.

  22. #122
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    I was referring to "inventions" in the work place. I remember seeing things written long ago about how machinery, etc would reduce a person's workweek down to 30 hours. But of course, they don't; you're just expected to get more work done with fewer people.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oh My Sack! View Post
    Remember, there's always quilting and knitting if pedalling becomes too tough.

  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post
    Probably why "innovations" with small windows like Boost are criticized. There's just not much gained for how much you pay for it.
    You see this point frequently and always makes me roll my eyes. People who update a component just because itís new are the problem theyíre complaining about.

    If youíre someone who absolutely canít ride their bike anymore because some new standard has come out, then yes, itís expensive to update for no reason. Otherwise itís just in the cost of a new bike whenever you replace your current one. People flipped out over the cost of an XX1 drivetrain when it was released. How many people completely replaced their drivetrain and rear hub on their existing bike or bought a new bike just for that? But now many people are riding single ring drive trains after replacing a bike in that 5 years.

    Or the classic complaint about ďthe industryĒ trying to convince you that you need a new bike. Who cares. Bike companies need to sell bikes. I subscribe to Bike and Dirt Rag. Most months I donít bother reading the bike reviews. Theyíre irrelevant when Iím not in the market.

  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fajita Dave View Post
    The current trend in Europe and sales in the US is clearly proving you wrong. There's no reason to believe that will change unless it's made illegal against popular demand.

    It's about recreation; not some macho BS to "wussify everything." No one cares about your macho attitude and nor do they want a participation trophy. Just to get out an enjoy themselves.

    I don't have an e-bike and currently have no intention on getting one. I recognize it's just a pedal assit bike and doesn't do any more or less harm to trails than any other user.

    New e-bikes aren't an innovation anyway.





    The overwhelming majority of e-motorbikes sold are for paved road and path use. E-motormtb's make up a minuscule number of those sales and the numbers that have legal places to ride them on trails is even smaller yet.
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  25. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    I was referring to "inventions" in the work place. I remember seeing things written long ago about how machinery, etc would reduce a person's workweek down to 30 hours. But of course, they don't; you're just expected to get more work done with fewer people.
    "It doesn't get any easier, you just get faster."
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  26. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    Apology accepted, but to reiterate there was never a photo there. I purposely gave that post a large space between my next sentence as part of the suspense.

    Hereís a screen shot of the post for reference. Never was a photo there.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DB693649-398D-4D15-9564-70DCCB76505A.jpg 
Views:	34 
Size:	84.5 KB 
ID:	1223715
    I'm waving the BS flag on that. There was a screenshot present or there would have been no reason to post the "Here" and the big space. Sorry, I don't buy any of that. I know what I saw.
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  27. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatGuyontheTrail View Post
    I'm waving the BS flag on that. There was a screenshot present or there would have been no reason to post the "Here" and the big space. Sorry, I don't buy any of that. I know what I saw.



    It should be archived, no?
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  28. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    It should be archived, no?
    I dunno. It was there when I replied with quote.
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  29. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    I remember seeing things written long ago about how machinery, etc would reduce a person's workweek down to 30 hours.
    Nothing's changed there, they still pitch the same nonsense. Infact the latest is the worforce will become so efficient in the future do to automation we will need large scale social welfare to make capatalism work.
    It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.

  30. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatGuyontheTrail View Post
    I'm waving the BS flag on that. There was a screenshot present or there would have been no reason to post the "Here" and the big space. Sorry, I don't buy any of that. I know what I saw.
    You guys... Seriously.

  31. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatGuyontheTrail View Post
    I'm waving the BS flag on that. There was a screenshot present or there would have been no reason to post the "Here" and the big space. Sorry, I don't buy any of that. I know what I saw.
    All I can say is, WOW!


    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    It should be archived, no?
    Anybody tech savvy enough to prove to him there was never a photo or screen shot there? Please be my guest as this is getting ridiculous.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

  32. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    All I can say is, WOW!
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bL1Xt3T9ZnY



    Anybody tech savvy enough to prove to him there was never a photo or screen shot there? Please be my guest as this is getting ridiculous.
    I specifically didn't see anything in that space -- ever. There.

    I mean... Here.














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  33. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by mack_turtle View Post
    I am not saying they are not selling. I am saying that the overall effect on mountain biking will be negative. Yes that is my subjective judgment and I stand by it. Putting motors on anything and everything is dragging humanity down. there's nothing macho about telling people that they would be better off in the long run by challenging their bodies rather than relying on technology to make everything as easy as possible. it will also be better for the rest of us in the long run to keep those shitty motorized bikes off public trails for a variety of reasons that have already been discussed a million times.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	dcb699613957429f9a8b33ee87cb3cd0.jpg 
Views:	28 
Size:	73.1 KB 
ID:	1223767
    People benefit much more from reduction in stress and an increase in happiness. For many people the exercise we find fun would increase their stress and decrease happiness (probably won't find them on any trails either way). You also have those who would enjoy the pain and effort we put ourselves through but their bodies aren't capable of it for various reasons.

    If it isn't wrecking the trail I'm not going to stand in someone's way for trying to enjoy life.

    Back to the thread. I've been thinking about useful innovations within cycling since this thread started and slowly realized it covers my entire mtb and road bike.
    Tubeless rims/tires, disc brakes, dropper posts, bigger tires, geometry/fit, stronger rim construction, 1x drive trans, road bikes with 650b tires that can go anywhere, electronic shifting and tons of other things have made modern bikes nothing short of awesome. They're all updates from the original inventions which is what innovation is.

    It's way more than just the bikes themselves too. Training apps with smart trainers make staying in peak fitness easy and leave you with one less excuse to skip a workout. GPS devices and trail apps that help you navigate back country trails you've never been on before. Gels, waffles, drink mixes and other various sources of energy keep us riding longer without needing to pack 4+ sandwiches for 8 hours in the saddle.

    I think the innovations that usually get shunned are those just trying to make a buck off something they can sell to suckers. The zip on tires kinda fall into that. I've ridden in snow/ice, gravel, and single track trail with pure summer road cycling tires on a road bike. Ice could use studs but you certainly don't need a zip on tire for every different surface and condition. For the shark fin saddle, it's tough to find a comfy road bike saddle for 100+ miles so people will try desperate things.

  34. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatGuyontheTrail View Post
    I dunno. It was there when I replied with quote.
    Ok, I don't want to get in the middle of this however, when you quoted him, the image would have appeared as well. Now if he went back and deleted the image from his post, it would still remain in your quote. I guess if he went in and deleted the image from his library, it would probably delete from your quote. But I believe it would show as a missing image, the little icon with a question mark as the code would still be there for an image but it could no longer locate the image.

    I don't know what happened and I don't think either one of you meant/means the other ill. I think it would be best if we could all just move on and forget about it.
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  35. #135
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    I found the missing "image"!













    Why is innovation shunned?-fb_img_1540516690117.jpg
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  36. #136
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    I thought innovation was shunned when someone started calling a basic bicycle an "analog bike."
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatGuyontheTrail View Post
    I'm waving the BS flag on that. There was a screenshot present or there would have been no reason to post the "Here" and the big space. Sorry, I don't buy any of that. I know what I saw.
    You do know that in forums you can use the return/enter key to make multiple ďblank spacesĒ, right?










    Like this, I mean here


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  38. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Battery View Post
    I thought intelligence was shunned when someone started calling a basic bicycle an "analog bike."
    fify
    Quote Originally Posted by Oh My Sack! View Post
    Remember, there's always quilting and knitting if pedalling becomes too tough.

  39. #139
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    I resisted tubeless tires at first, but they were kind of a PITA when they started out.

    disc brakes and suspension were totally mainstream when I started riding mountain bikes a little over a decade ago. coming from a BMX background, I wanted a minimalist bike that would give me the most unadulterated experience of just pedaling and conquering the terrain. I have slowly, gradually accepted things, but only after they have proven to be minimally error-prone and economically accessible. I set a low bar for how much I am willing to spend on something that I know has a short life and needs a lot of maintenance. that bit rubs me the wrong way too- it seems irresponsible, economically, socially, personally, environmentally, to buy stuff you know is not going to last and end up in a landfill in 1/10 the time a more durable, cheaper alternative would. honestly, when someone says that the life of a frame they just bought for $2-3k is 4-5 years, that sounds absolutely insane to me. throw-away society and all that.

    I was profoundly affected by Brave New World when I ride it as a teenager, and several times after that. in chapter 2, the director demonstrates how babies are trained to subconsciously hate nature, he says "We condition the masses to hate the country, but simultaneously we condition them to love all country sports. At the same time, we see to it that all country sports shall entail the use of elaborate apparatus. So that they consume manufactured articles as well as transport." sounds familiar.

    give it a few years and I'll probably be on a mid-fat carbon e-droppered e-shifting bike if i can afford it, but I'll be the last person to adopt those things. if money was no object, I'd give those things a try, but buying some new whiz-bang item means I have to take money out of the budget for things that I know will benefit my experience. that's a big driving factor for most of us with average incomes- you have to pry money out of our greasy working-class hands first. putting a motor on the bike is where I draw a red line.
    Last edited by mack_turtle; 11-06-2018 at 01:22 PM.

  40. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    I wonder what the internal diameter is on that rear rim? Also, instead of stopping to fix a flat, would you have to stop to tie the shoe?
    OMG I about died with laughter on the "... stop to tie a shoe" part.
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  41. #141
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    I wonder why the buzz around Allite Super Magnesium isn't more widespread.

    I got the impression that it had strong potential to be the most popular material on the market for things currently made of aluminum and carbon fiber, as long as supply kept up. It's the tweener option between the two, that people may have been demanding.

    20% more dense than carbon. 33% less dense than 6061-T6 (stiffer and stronger, w/20x the shock absorption). 50% less than Ti. 75% less than steel.

    They state that it melts and is corrosion resistant, unlike typical magnesium.



    Wonder what else holds possibilities, besides the 3D lattice printed stuff...

  42. #142
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    Why is innovation shunned?

    It's mostly chemical. Check out 'What the Bleep do we know anyway?"

    People are wired to want repeat hits of the same stuff over and over, even though there are diminishing returns to be had there.

    With a teeny, tiny mental tweak they could get the same hit from new things. But few do.

  43. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vandals View Post

    .....Iíve watched riders shun e-bikes....innovate in ways that improve your riding.
    You had me going except for that. e-Bikes don't improve your (bicycle) riding. You can't put them in the same category as other technological advances because, among other things, they detract from cycling making it a motor sport like any other.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post
    Hmm, what you two imply is similar, but I suppose there are slight differences:

    - Do a standard task with less energy/effort/time spent.

    - Do more with the same energy/effort/time spent.

    The amount of how much more you can do with the same effort can gauge how great the innovation is. Probably why "innovations" like Boost are criticized--there's just not much gained, especially considering for how much you pay to upgrade to it (frame and wheels, and the cost of divesting).

    Makes me wonder which things motivate/inspire you to put out even more effort. I think this feeling, for me, is the "new bike stoke effect". "Innovations" that really change things up for the better, being very well suited for the task at hand, give me this motivation to put out more effort for at least a couple seasons. Pretty rare/special to find something so awesome that you go out of your way to look for opportunities to put it to use.


    Mountain biking is a sport and a hobby, not a job. Efficiency for it's own sake is not the point of it, nor is "making it easier."

    I could get an e-Bike to help me up the hills but that kind of defeats the point of riding a bicycle. There is nothing macho about it, either. I ride on multi-use trails in the company of motorcycle and ATV riders. They are having legitimate fun and I wouldn't even think of criticizing their leisure pursuits.

    But it ain't cycling.

  45. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailuropoda View Post
    Mountain biking is a sport and a hobby, not a job *semantics alert*. Efficiency for it's own sake is not the point of it, nor is "making it easier." *personal beliefs*

    I could get a [bike equipped with modern innovations and refinement, to get more capability with less trade-offs] to help me up the hills but that kind of defeats the point of riding a bicycle *contradiction alert*. There is nothing macho about it, either *ego alert*. I ride on multi-use trails in the company of motorcycle and ATV riders. They are having legitimate fun and I wouldn't even think of criticizing their leisure pursuits *you sure don't hold back much when it comes to criticizing ebiker's leisure pursuits*.

    But [e-biking] ain't cycling.
    Sooo... innovation is shunned because it claims to be cycling, despite motor assistance?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailuropoda View Post
    You had me going except for that. e-Bikes don't improve your (bicycle) riding. You can't put them in the same category as other technological advances because, among other things, they detract from cycling making it a motor sport like any other.
    The assist e-bikes make commuting in windy areas a lot more enjoyable, much like suspension makes downhill more enjoyable. E-bikes that do not require the rider to provide most of the power via the pedals are just another motorsport. But having commuted in an area with temperatures over 100 degrees and winds over 20mph on a regular basis, an assist would lower the misery index.

    As Ive sarcastically alluded to before, my goal is to get more people on bikes. Bicyclists make better drivers when they arenít biking and bicyclists are more likely to back a mountain bike park like the one that was added in St George.

  47. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vandals View Post
    E-bikes that do not require the rider to provide most of the power via the pedals are just another motorsport.



    I don't know this for a fact but I would bet that for the average person a class1 (US) ebike provides at least 50% of the power, if not it has to be pretty close.

    Electric assist bikes are cool, and for sure they're innovative but I'll never consider them an upgrade on a bicycle like suspension, gears, dropper posts, etc. Just a different thing.
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  48. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fajita Dave View Post
    I think the innovations that usually get shunned are those just trying to make a buck off something they can sell to suckers. The zip on tires kinda fall into that. I've ridden in snow/ice, gravel, and single track trail with pure summer road cycling tires on a road bike. Ice could use studs but you certainly don't need a zip on tire for every different surface and condition. For the shark fin saddle, it's tough to find a comfy road bike saddle for 100+ miles so people will try desperate things.
    I think the Hite-Rite would have fallen squarely into this category if this thread occurred 30 years ago. A novelty item. Many innovations come through evolution such as this even if they aren't appreciated at the time. At they very least, they can spur more creative thinking which leads to innovation.

  49. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    I don't know this for a fact but I would bet that for the average person a class1 (US) ebike provides at least 50% of the power, if not it has to be pretty close.

    Electric assist bikes are cool, and for sure they're innovative but I'll never consider them an upgrade on a bicycle like suspension, gears, dropper posts, etc. Just a different thing.
    I used to think the same thing about full suspension, 27.5, fat bikes, dropper posts, 1x drivetrains, etc. when I didnít understand where the little innovation was most useful I considered it one more piece of bike magazine fodder.

  50. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vandals View Post
    I used to think the same thing about full suspension, 27.5, fat bikes, dropper posts, 1x drivetrains, etc.


    Not me, the difference has always seemed clear. None of the things you mentioned changes the definition of a bicycle.

    Anyway, dead horse. Studies have conclusively proven that I'm right and you're wrong so we might as well both let it go and move on.
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  51. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Not me, the difference has always seemed clear. None of the things you mentioned changes the definition of a bicycle.
    Ah, but they do change the category and application of the bicycle.


    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Anyway, dead horse. Studies have conclusively proven that I'm right and you're wrong so we might as well both let it go and move on.
    Good thing about studies is there's always a new one showing the old ones were flawed. That's how researchers get their money. And the latest studies show that bicyclists that don't get bent out of shape about e-bikes live longer, happier lives.

  52. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vandals View Post
    Ah, but they do change the category and application of the bicycle.




    Good thing about studies is there's always a new one showing the old ones were flawed. That's how researchers get their money. And the latest studies show that bicyclists that don't get bent out of shape about e-bikes live longer, happier lives.



    E-motorbikes aren't "innovative", they've been around as long as the safety bicycle.
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  53. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    E-motorbikes aren't "innovative", they've been around as long as the safety bicycle.
    The way batteries and motors are being applied in pedal assist bikes now is definitely innovation.

  54. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fajita Dave View Post
    The way batteries and motors are being applied in pedal assist bikes now is definitely innovation.


    That would be evolutionary.
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  55. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    That would be evolutionary.
    Innovation is the improvement of an existing invention.

    Batteries inegrated into the downtube and easy to swap out is innovation. So is the computer controlled pedal assist allowing the user to adjust how much did they want.

  56. #156
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    Why is innovation shunned?-p5pb13548608.jpg

    Are the "anti-hydration pack" people looking for new methods of carrying stuff like this?

    Did anyone ever consider getting the Alpinestars Paragon Vest, which had a removable back protector, storage pockets (on side and back), plus a hydration bladder compartment on front?

    Why is innovation shunned?-alpinestars-paragon-vest-first-look-4-von-11.jpg



    Personally, my main issue with hydration packs is that they either have two shoulder straps or none (hip pack). Without the straps, they risk sagging (floppy vertically) and compromise on cargo carrying ability (and back protection). With the straps, you have to remove both shoulder strap to access your gear inside.

    Why not have one strap, so you can have the best of both worlds, and optimize the access zippers to accommodate access with the pack swung in front of the body (side-loading, instead of top loading).

    Why is innovation shunned?-21952615_10155778934091974_1243829929_o-1.jpg

    Take this Camelbak Repack LR, and combine with the design of an Everest Luggage Sling Bag:



    The fusion of these two products... can just lift the shoulder strap, swing it around, and put it on your other shoulder, and access everything inside. Preferably able to easily refill it from this position too. These sling-style packs are known to be parkour friendly too.


    Tweener options for everything. xD

  57. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fajita Dave View Post
    Innovation is the improvement of an existing invention.

    Batteries inegrated into the downtube and easy to swap out is innovation. So is the computer controlled pedal assist allowing the user to adjust how much did they want.


    innovation noun
    in∑​no∑​va∑​tion | \ˌi-nə-ˈvā-shən \
    Definition of innovation
    1 : the introduction of something new



    As I posted, nothing new.
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  58. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fajita Dave View Post
    Innovation is the improvement of an existing invention.

    Batteries inegrated into the downtube and easy to swap out is innovation. So is the computer controlled pedal assist allowing the user to adjust how much did they want.
    Agreed! Lots of innovation with mopeds!

    But I thought we were talking about bicycles.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oh My Sack! View Post
    Remember, there's always quilting and knitting if pedalling becomes too tough.

  59. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    Agreed! Lots of innovation with mopeds!

    But I thought we were talking about bicycles.
    Keep the BS to yourself. E-bikes are e-bikes, not a moped and not a bicycle. Get over it.

    Don't plan on using e-bikes for a long time but very happy they should be around when I'm 70 or if I get some sort of injury.

  60. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    innovation noun
    in∑​no∑​va∑​tion | \ˌi-nə-ˈvā-shən \
    Definition of innovation
    1 : the introduction of something new



    As I posted, nothing new.
    You're confusing innovation with invention. Innovation is the creation of something new from an existing idea. The bicycle has already been invented. Anything used to modify or enhance a bicycle is innovation.

    Quick change batteries built into the downtube of a pedal assist bike is a new idea which makes it innovation. Along with tubeless tires, dropper posts, suspension, pinion gearboxes, disc brakes, etc. Your definition of "innovation" wouldn't be a bicycle or even bicycle related because it would be a new invention.

  61. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fajita Dave View Post
    You're confusing innovation with invention. Innovation is the creation of something new from an existing idea. The bicycle has already been invented. Anything used to modify or enhance a bicycle is innovation.

    Quick change batteries built into the downtube of a pedal assist bike is a new idea which makes it innovation. Along with tubeless tires, dropper posts, suspension, pinion gearboxes, disc brakes, etc. Your definition of "innovation" wouldn't be a bicycle or even bicycle related because it would be a new invention.
    I think innovation should involve more than just finally wising up and using old technology in a very slightly different application.

    Using disc brakes to slow down a wheel? Tubeless tires? Dropper posts? None of that stuff has been innovative for decades.

    And a battery that can be changed is an innovation? Everything I've ever owned that has a battery allows for changing it out. How this was left out as part of the original design is baffling; changing it now is just fixing an obvious design flaw and not remotely innovative.
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  62. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fajita Dave View Post
    Keep the BS to yourself. E-bikes are e-bikes, not a moped and not a bicycle. Get over it.

    Don't plan on using e-bikes for a long time but very happy they should be around when I'm 70 or if I get some sort of injury.
    Keep talking to people like that and your injury that puts you on ebikes may come sooner than you think.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

  63. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    Keep talking to people like that and your injury that puts you on ebikes may come sooner than you think.
    He recognizes that an ebike is an ebike and not a bicycle, I'll give him credit for that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oh My Sack! View Post
    Remember, there's always quilting and knitting if pedalling becomes too tough.

  64. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    He recognizes that an ebike is an ebike and not a bicycle, I'll give him credit for that.
    True, he just needs to work on his bedside manners.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

  65. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    True, he just needs to work on his bedside manners.
    Not many people on this site have good manners .

    Besides I'm from Jersey. My version of normal conversation can offend some people.

    No interest in violence. Well trained in self defense.

  66. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    I think innovation should involve more than just finally wising up and using old technology in a very slightly different application.

    Using disc brakes to slow down a wheel? Tubeless tires? Dropper posts? None of that stuff has been innovative for decades.

    And a battery that can be changed is an innovation? Everything I've ever owned that has a battery allows for changing it out. How this was left out as part of the original design is baffling; changing it now is just fixing an obvious design flaw and not remotely innovative.
    That's kind of my point. There really isn't anything you can put on or do to a bicycle that doesn't already exist in some fashion. Which is where my comment came in saying your version of innovation wouldn't be a bicycle or bicycle related.

    Occasionally innovation can be more than just wising up and using existing technology but generally new technology is simply a new invention. Innovation is improving apon or finding a new application for existing technology.

    The OP's post is a perfect example. Saddles have clearly been around for centuries. Geometric shapes like a wedge have been around since the beginning of time. Putting a wedge shaped piece on a saddle for lateral stability of your butt is innovation.

  67. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    innovation noun
    in∑​no∑​va∑​tion | \ˌi-nə-ˈvā-shən \
    Definition of innovation
    1 : the introduction of something new
    Doesn't have to be new, it can be better, faster, or cheaper (pick 2).

    Look at what SpaceX is doing in the space industry.
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  68. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fajita Dave View Post
    The OP's post is a perfect example. Saddles have clearly been around for centuries. Geometric shapes like a wedge have been around since the beginning of time. Putting a wedge shaped piece on a saddle for lateral stability of your butt is inappropriate.
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  69. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post
    Sooo... innovation is shunned because it claims to be cycling, despite motor assistance?
    No, e-biking is shunned because it claims to be cycling. Period.

    Not despite motor assistance but rather because of it.

    When e-bikes appeared I was 100% against them. For the record I'm an off-road motorcyclist, have been since 1990. I have zero problem with responsible use of powered equipment on trails. Anyway when e-bikes first showed up my response was like most other mountain bikers these days. I said, "E-biking! WTF! That's not mountain biking!"

    And I was right. As is everybody else who says e-biking isn't mountain biking. It isn't mountain biking because mountain biking is 100% human powered. E-biking isn't. Period.

    Anyway now I'm in the other camp. I've become pro-e-bike during the past year or two. Why? Because I was right -- it's not mountain biking. I let go of the rest. Just like off-road motorcycling isn't mountain biking but I don't hate responsible off-road motorcyclists. Let me explain.

    E-bikes are a new trail user. And traditional trail users ALWAYS resist new trail users. Hikers hated mountain bikers when we appeared in the 70s & 80s. And now mountain bikers are doing the same thing to e-bikers -- hating. This is simply the way of the world.

    People don't shun e-bikes because e-bikes are innovative. It has nothing to do with innovation. It has to do with traditional trail users hating on a new trail user. The fact that e-bikes masquerade as mountain bikes does make things worse, tho.

    Anyway I say let e-bikers earn their place on the trails just like mountain bikers did. Let them stand on their own merit -- good or bad. They should earn their reputation and stand on it, not ride in on the coattails of mountain bikers. If e-bikers are good trail stewards, great. If not, then kick them out.

    Meanwhile let's not confuse e-biking with mountain biking.

    Now back to innovation. E-bikes are WAY innovative! But common hate from mountain bikers keeps much of the mountain biking community from recognizing the innovation or even caring. But the NEXT generation... THEY sure as hell recognize it and they care. They'll be the ones riding e-bikes more than any other age group. Will existing mountain bikers work with this upcoming trail user group or will we alienate them and thereby suffer the same fate that the hiking community has suffered in recent years? That being assumption of the role of a distant second user group.

    If we can keep our emotions out of it and share, we might have a chance.
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  70. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fajita Dave View Post
    Not many people on this site have good manners .

    Besides I'm from Jersey. My version of normal conversation can offend some people.
    The first step is admitting it.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

  71. #171
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    You guys had a chance to revive the late, great, huckin' kitty back there but everyone was so "listen to me, I'm important and so are my thoughts and words!" that you missed it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrashbarg View Post
    You guys had a chance to revive the late, great, huckin' kitty back there but everyone was so "listen to me, I'm important and so are my thoughts and words!" that you missed it.
    Huckin' kitty ain't got time for innovations. Huckin' Kitty don't give aÖ
    Quote Originally Posted by Oh My Sack! View Post
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