Why does Santa Cruz get a free ride(made in Taiwan)!- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1

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    Why does Santa Cruz get a free ride(made in Taiwan)!

    am i missing something?...please shed some light..does Santa Cruz say they make their bikes here in the USA..i think they are made in Taiwan from what ive read..so which is it..are they made here or in taiwan...and also i realize they are not grouped together with turner, intense, ellsworth, and titus for handmade boutique made bikes..but does made in taiwan take some of their quality away...no one mentions it and i thought i would since i was curious...anywa, thx in advance and happy holiday..although im stuck at work instead of riding! bew well everyone!...Vic

  2. #2

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    There's nothing wrong with

    Quote Originally Posted by victorhoffman
    am i missing something?...please shed some light..does Santa Cruz say they make their bikes here in the USA..i think they are made in Taiwan from what ive read..so which is it..are they made here or in taiwan...and also i realize they are not grouped together with turner, intense, ellsworth, and titus for handmade boutique made bikes..but does made in taiwan take some of their quality away...no one mentions it and i thought i would since i was curious...anywa, thx in advance and happy holiday..although im stuck at work instead of riding! bew well everyone!...Vic
    bikes made in Taiwan. It doesn't even mean that the quality is any less that bikes made in the USA.

    You should expect bikes made in Taiwan to be cheaper that those made in the USA. It all depends on which factories Santa Cruz uses and the specs they give the manufacturer......plus the level of QC at the factory and here in the US.

    Santa Cruz does make some bikes in the US.

  3. #3
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    read here....

    from www.chrisking.com

    Thoughts on Manufacturing Overseas
    In 2001, China and Taiwan together accounted for 85% of the $1billion of bicycles and parts imported into the US. 62% of imported bicycles and parts come from China.1
    Serious concerns about humans rights and environmental responsibility in Asia are justifiable. “Respiratory diseases related to air pollution are the leading cause of death in China. Almost all of the nation’s rivers are considered polluted to some degree, and half of the population lacks access to clean water.“2 The decision makers at bike companies whose design and marketing is based in the US, but whose manufacturing is based in China, Taiwan and elsewhere can and will shape policies and practices, including the treatment of their workers and the environmental practices of their factories. The influence of foreign industry in Asian countries is very real.

    Some companies think that you will confuse “designed and tested in USA” plus a little clever wording with “Made in the USA”. We don’t think that you are so gullible. If it doesn’t say “Made in the USA”, it wasn’t. This is not to say that you should only buy American made products, that would be unreasonable, nearly impossible and totally unnecessary. But look beyond the marketing and catalogs. Full knowledge of where and how a thing is made, by whom and under what conditions, that is the requirement of the responsible enlightened consumer.

    For many Asian manufacturers, fair treatment of their workforce is a big deal. There are many Asian factories that treat their employees well. They work in clean, dignified environments with sophisticated equipment, they are well paid and cared for with good benefits and training. However, this is not the norm, nor is it common. Since the governments of most Asian countries have not yet developed far reaching worker’s rights laws or environmental pollution laws and meaningful enforcement (Japan is an obvious exception), the decision to be a decent and dignified employer is left up to the managers of the factories (Asian factories) and their customers (the bike companies). This makes it incredibly difficult to know whether you are buying a product made by a 12 year old boy working 70 hour weeks under a bare light bulb with no safety equipment or training, or by a 40 year old, trained professional working in a clean factory. Especially difficult if the company has a polished “Americanized” image. Most companies will go to some lengths to mislead the consumer into thinking that their product is of US manufacture. Watch carefully for “designed and tested in the USA” and “assembled in the USA”, that doesn’t mean it was made in a sweat shop, but it does mean that it wasn’t made in America. To further confuse the issue, a company could put a “made in the USA” decal on a bike frame that was made in China but painted in the US.

    As potential consumers of those companies’ products, it becomes your responsibility to ask and be informed about the labor management and environmental practices involved in the manufacture of your bike part or frame. In many cases, the outlook is good. Some Asian manufacturing companies pay careful attention to health and work safety issues, training and wages. But there will always be those that will do anything to maximize a profit. Expressing your concerns about fair and responsible manufacturing to your favorite bike company is the best way to promote positive change in Asia.
    The governments and trade unions of China, Taiwan and other emerging economies are competing among themselves -- and they are themselves partially responsible for the decline in wages and labor standards among their own workers. Countries bent on economic growth through export markets are pursuing policies that foster the rapid and unregulated building of foreign-invested factories. As a result these countries have gained millions of new jobs in their export industries.

    However, more jobs have not necessarily lead to higher wages or rising labor standards for workers in these export industries. In many areas, wages have fallen, and working conditions have worsened as a result of intensified competition (to demonstrate lower labor and operational costs) in order to attract new factories that produce goods to sell in the US markets. Bicycle parts and frames are certainly among them.

    Many US companies have been taking advantage of this discount labor pool and loose environmental and safety regulations, and in turn, passed the savings to you the consumer. They are also passing the buck, saying the US domestic labor pool’s output can not meet the ravenous demands of the American consumer. Or that they simply can’t compete in the bike market without taking advantage of the savings that Asian manufacturing offers them. It is a circular argument and it leads back to some simple questions: What is the true cost of making something with the economic, social and environmental costs included? Are consumers willing to face the facts about why that Taiwanese or Chinese part is so much cheaper than the US made one? If everybody is absolutely intent on making things as cheaply as possible, and the consumer buying the product doesn’t care about the economic, social and environmental costs of making things in poorly run factories, then we are doomed to continue this ridiculous charade.
    1. www.ita.doc.gov/td/ocg/imp37511.htm: Top 24 US Import Sources for Bicycles and Parts.
    2. Source: www.state.gov
    The typical bike-related purchase is based on 3 factors:
    Price
    Color
    Weight.

    What about the social cost of your purchase? What is life like for the people who made your bike part? Does the worker that made your bike part have insurance, an opportunity to get promoted at work or a way to save for his family or future? Does he work in a factory that is safe and dignified towards its employees? Do they get reasonable breaks and work a decent number of hours a week?
    What is the environmental cost of your purchase? Is the country where it is made regulating manufacturing waste and emissions? Does the factory where your bike part was made take pollution control seriously or are they contributing to the enormous problems of pollution in Asia?
    The enlightened list has 5 factors:
    Price
    Color
    Weight
    Working environment and social conditions where the part was made
    Environmental responsibility of the manufacturer of the part

    The bike part you bought last week for $60, that was made in the USA
    Was made by a skilled worker, earning between $12-20 or more/hr.
    Who works a 40 hour week (with nationalized overtime laws), with health insurance and retirement benefits.
    Works in a safe environment that is heavily regulated and monitored by local, state and federal agencies.
    They are trained. They are likely on a track that promotes growth, increases in pay, and increases in responsibilities.
    The US has highest literacy (above 99.9% of the population), highest education level (95%) and GDP ($34,142 per capita) in the world.3

    That same bike part that you almost bought last week at such a great low price of $40, that was manufactured and/or assembled in an Asian NIE (newly industrialized economy)
    Was likely to have been made by an untrained worker, earning less than one fourth of his US counterpart ($2-5 per hour).4
    He is unlikely to have health insurance or retirement benefits. Complex, under-funded and erratic reforms have so far failed to increase the number of people genuinely insured.
    His workplace environment and its safety regulations are inconsistent and not well enforced. He’ll work a 60-70hr work week and is not allowed to join or create a trade union.5
    He is likely to "retire” by the age of 27, due to injury, burnout or fatigue.6
    He is working in an environment where rapid industrial development is leading to increased pollution and degradation of natural resources, without adequate governmental regulation or oversight.7
    Only 84% of China’s people are literate, 73% have some form of education, GDP $8976 per capita.3

    "One of the most serious negative consequences of China’s rapid industrial development has been increased pollution and degradation of natural resources. A 1998 World Health Organization report on air quality in 272 cities worldwide found that seven of the world’s 10 most polluted cities were in China. According to China’s own evaluation, two-thirds of the 338 cities for which air-quality data are available are considered polluted."9
    3. Source: U.N. - The Human Development Report, 2002.
    4. Source: U.S. Department of Labor, Bureau of Labor Statistics, September 2001.
    5. Source: http://www.fpif.org/outside/commenta...abor_body.html
    6. Source: web.amnesty.org/ai.nsf/Index/ASA170222002?OpenDocument&of=COUNTRIES\CHINA
    7. Source: www.state.gov
    8. Source: U.N. - The Human Development Report, 2002.
    9. Source: www.state.gov
    Growing labor unrest in China is being met with repression, including imprisonment and torture, and a denial of basic human rights such as freedom of association and expression. Protests by angry workers over layoffs, wage arrears, poor working conditions and management corruption have been met with repression and force. Clashes between workers and armed police have resulted in casualties and arrests. Independent trade union movements have been suppressed since the late 1980s. As of April, 2002 Independent Trade Unions are not permitted in China.10

    About 53% of the Peoples Republic of China population lives on $2/day US.
    Estimated earned income for an American female/male for 2000 = $26,255/$42,246 ($US) 11
    Estimated earned income for a Chinese female/male for 2000 = $3,132/$4,773 ($US) (about than 1/8 of their US equivalent) 12

    Beijing, Shanghai, Seoul, Guangzhou, Shenzhen, Taipei were among the top 15 highest cost of living cities in the world in 2002. Higher than: Los Angeles, Chicago, San Francisco, Washington DC, Boston and Denver. 13

    As the global labor market supports our nation’s fabricated need to consume cheap junk, as foreign labor conditions grow harsher, as living wages around the world lessen, consumers seem less interested in these issues than ever. We feel that it is the responsibility of every thinking person to know exactly what it is that they are buying, where it came from and what is the real cost of that product and its production. Was it made in a dignified and decent working environment? Are the people working in that factory being treated and paid fairly? Is their health and well being a concern for their employers? Are they paid enough to support their families and save for their future? Please consider these factors whenever you buy something at the store. Bike parts or anything else.

    Emerging Asian economies have no real choice but to build themselves via utilization of their natural resources (mining, timber, oil and coal) and their vast expanses of land and willing labor. That China and other Asian countries must manufacture hard goods in order to grow is obvious. The rest of the world should not benefit from this situation without taking an informed and firm position on the human and environmental costs to the people that live in these developing countries. Asian manufacturing needs oversight and it needs concerned consumers to keep it from oppressing its workers and destroying its own environment.

    Do not avoid Asian made products. Call or email your favorite bike companies before you buy. Insist on fair treatment of people and the environment regardless of nationality.


    Please buy consciously.

  4. #4
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    Some SC models (i.e. Juliana, don't know about others) are made in Taiwan, some are made in the USA. I imagine most people probably don't know or just don't care as long as the quality is up to expectations.

  5. #5
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    I think they get a "free ride" because they just started building in Taiwan in the last year or two. Plus they only make some of their frames there (chameleon, Juliana, new hecklers) and their frames are priced lower than comparable frames from people like intense, turner, ellsworth, etc. If you email SC they are very up front about where all of thier products are made (unlike some bike companies). I do think that if they move too much production overseas they will lose their "boutique bike" status and people won't be willing to pay so much for their frames.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by victorhoffman
    am i missing something?...please shed some light..does Santa Cruz say they make their bikes here in the USA..i think they are made in Taiwan from what ive read..so which is it..are they made here or in taiwan...and also i realize they are not grouped together with turner, intense, ellsworth, and titus for handmade boutique made bikes..but does made in taiwan take some of their quality away...no one mentions it and i thought i would since i was curious...anywa, thx in advance and happy holiday..although im stuck at work instead of riding! bew well everyone!...Vic
    I'm not sure about all of Santa Cruz's line, but I'm pretty sure their 6069 bikes (Blur, SL) are US. To my knowledge, Ano Inc is the only framebuilder that's currently working with 6069 tubing. I know they built the Schwinn "enlightened" Homegrowns and the M4 Specialized (both 6069 bikes), but that was a couple years back. Anyone know if any other factories are using that tubing yet?

    Anyhooo, still not an "in house" bike, but US none the less. Ano Inc builds nice bikes.

    my $.02
    Redstone Cyclery
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  7. #7
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    Both........

    VPP is Made in the USA and the other bikes are outsourced to Taiwan.
    I beleive the number one reason for sending the Single Pivot bikes overseas was to allow the US factory to get production off the VPP bikes up due to all the demand.

  8. #8
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    I personally don't see what the big deal about outsourcing labor to Taiwan(notice I specifically say Taiwan, not China or Vietnam) the work they do is excellent, on par with 90% of US made frames. The "but what about U.S. jobs?" argument is valid, but how much money do you think the average guy on Cannondale or Treks's line makes an hour. Health insurance? You can almost bet these companies aren't union(i'm not pro-union in anyway) Maybe this is why so few people have no major problems with SC's warranties as opposed to Ellsworth etc... If you manufacture overseas, you can afford to put more time and money into developing great bikes, replacing broken ones... etc..

  9. #9
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    While I agree on being carefull in buying oversea stuff, I have to say that Taiwan is certainly not as bad as China for instance in regard to social rights, freedom, democracy and workers' condition, certainly not heaven but more respectable than many others. Kinesis is a taiwainese company I think that owns a subsidiary in Portland Oregon which itselfs owns moutain cycle and makes high end bikes for many manufacturers, one of which is apparently Santa Cruz. Bike company do not advertise too much they are mostly designers and components matcher rather than frame builders except for they prototype. But from what I heard it is also good news, Kinesis has a pretty good score on its products quality. Well I'll feel relatively ok buying something made in Taiwan (i'm sure all the computers you people use to post have some taiwanese parts) but i'm also aware it's not always the same quality than made in the USA and that Taiwanese worker are not as protected as US workers. However they are not slaves like in Mainland China and unfortunately sometimes company like SC have no choice to manufacture abroad to remain competitive against true global companies, people keep ranting about prices and avaibility of SC bikes, but if the only solution is Taiwan to get their bike on time and if SC is watching what's going on in the factories I do not see the problem. I'm not sure the quality difference is that bad.
    well just some thoughts.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve3
    aren't superlights made by SC themselves, while Blurs are made by Kinesis USA in their Oregon factory?
    Santacruz is a bunch of former skateboard makers... they've never had a bicycle factory. Its always been outsourced production. Really, making skateboards is something any good furniture maker could do (as well as building some aircraft - it was done on both sides in WW2). Making bicycles out of aluminium takes quite a bit of expensive equipment. At most santa cruz might assemble the pieces themselves. Otherwise all they do inhouse is R&D work. Frame manufacture is done by Kinesis in their Oregon and Taiwan factories. Annodizing Inc does the annodizing and powdercoats after they get the frames from Kinesis. Then they go to the santa cruz headquarters.

  11. #11
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    Not to diss King, but this stat. is pure BULL

    "The US has highest literacy (above 99.9% of the population), highest education level (95%) and GDP ($34,142 per capita) in the world.".
    I know COLLEGE grads that are barely literate, not to mention high school. It is all about standards. Highest education level? Give me an average Finnish, Dutch, or Slovakian 9th grader over an average Duke (Just an example) freshman anyday. 70% or so of populations in other countries are at least bilingual, if not tri or quad, by education, or culturalization. Not so in the "English" world. Math stats in the US are abysmal, just look at our president's comprehension regarding fiscal responsibility, Deficit spending, and Social Security theft. (Cheney on the other hand, must be a genius..he has found a way to keep it all for himself) And oh, you ever listen to Dubya speak off message? It hurts if you happen to be literate yourself.
    As to the claim that US production jobs are generally "Upward Track" oriented, just ask you average US production worker. And look at many of the US products, from trucks to Huffy's, general production (Non Boutique) items are often a step behind in Quality, Cost, And Durability. Not casting any (More) aspersions, but does anyone know exactly where King's Aluminum is smelted, and bearings manufactured? I really don't know myself, but would like to know. Stay in school, kids, even though your teacher may be an idiot. Teaching here does not pay enough for geniuses to be interested...Rant Over.
    Last edited by rideit; 02-16-2004 at 02:18 PM. Reason: clarification

  12. #12
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    Furthermore...

    Bahrain has a GDP of 8.4 billion, with a population of 656, 000. You do the math. It's not even funny. BTW, Bahrain's second largest industry is....ALUMINUM SMELTING! Ironic, really.

  13. #13
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    Yes you're missing something

    Santa Cruz doesn't make bicycles; they outsource them to a firm that makes them in Oregon and Taiwan. The US made ones carry a sticker that sez made in USA.

    This subject has been beaten to death, specifically over Santa Cruz 2 x in the last 6 months.

    Who cares where they're made? The drive train is predominately Japanese, tires are ?, and assorted parts from around the world are used.

    Free ride? YES, that's exactly what I do with my Bullit.

    Jim

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by victorhoffman
    am i missing something?...please shed some light..does Santa Cruz say they make their bikes here in the USA..i think they are made in Taiwan from what ive read..so which is it..are they made here or in taiwan...and also i realize they are not grouped together with turner, intense, ellsworth, and titus for handmade boutique made bikes..but does made in taiwan take some of their quality away...no one mentions it and i thought i would since i was curious...anywa, thx in advance and happy holiday..although im stuck at work instead of riding! bew well everyone!...Vic

    Are you really curious or are you just trying to slam Santa Cruz??

    C'mon man, we're not that stupid. You're not really Vic. You just created this account so you can be anonymous and take pot shots. Records show that you are Serpico and you make statements to make your bike look good.

    http://forums.mtbr.com/member.php?u=236423

    It's one thing to love your bike but what you're doing is crossing the line. Just a heads up.

    francois

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeEight
    Santacruz is a bunch of former skateboard makers...
    They still make skateboards.

  16. #16
    Tear it all out! SuperModerator
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    Link still works for me.

    You can also go to the user profile by selecting "S" in the members list.

  17. #17
    fc
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve3
    Thanks for the heads up, Francois, but that link doesn't come up with anything. Oh yeah, what sparked you to look into it?
    I fixed the link, thanks for the note.

    I checked it out since this was happening before and some folks have alerted me to it. It just seems really slimey to pretend to be asking a question when promoting a hidden agenda.

    francois

  18. #18
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    Maybe........

    You should make this thread a "sticky" and post it on all of the boards as a warning to all the frauds out there that the Moderators & Administrators are looking out for this type of post & won't tolerate it.

  19. #19
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    I was actually thinking the very same thing ...

    Sorry, this was supposed to be a reply to the original post.

    Not that I don't like SC, but I was wondering why they were being grouped with Ventana, Titus and a few other boutique framebuilders as alternatives to Ellsworth. To be sure, SC is not a boutique framebuilder in the same category as Ventana or Titus or even Ellsworth. They are more like Jamis or Trek - companies that get everything made overseas and then try to dupe consumers into thinking they're American made by plastering their products with American flags and slogans like "Assembled in the USA" or "Designed in the USA". How SC has managed to keep the price of its imported frames up their with the likes of truly USA made frames like Titus and Ventana is a bit of a mystery to me. But good for them, I suppose.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philber

    How SC has managed to keep the price of its imported frames up their with the likes of truly USA made frames like Titus and Ventana is a bit of a mystery to me. But good for them, I suppose.
    Last I checked, Santa Cruz's frames were about 20% cheaper than their competition. It could also be since there is no decrease in quality from building a frame in Taiwan, look at Specialized.

  21. #21
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    Well let me educate you.......

    Quote Originally Posted by Philber
    Sorry, this was supposed to be a reply to the original post.

    Not that I don't like SC, but I was wondering why they were being grouped with Ventana, Titus and a few other boutique framebuilders as alternatives to Ellsworth. To be sure, SC is not a boutique framebuilder in the same category as Ventana or Titus or even Ellsworth. They are more like Jamis or Trek - companies that get everything made overseas and then try to dupe consumers into thinking they're American made by plastering their products with American flags and slogans like "Assembled in the USA" or "Designed in the USA". How SC has managed to keep the price of its imported frames up their with the likes of truly USA made frames like Titus and Ventana is a bit of a mystery to me. But good for them, I suppose.
    ALL Treks $500.00 and up ARE Made in the USA - outsourced materials like tubing? - Probably.
    Santa Cruz IS making bikes in Taiwan, The Single Pivot Line & Hardtail. ALL VPP bikes are Made in the USA.
    It's called supply & demand in SCB's case...And as far as SCB getting "High Prices", have you really checked out the prices of Ellsworth, Ventana, Titus or Turner??? I wouldn't say their pricing is high at all.

  22. #22
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    A lot of people whine about....

    Made in the US versus made in wherever...here is something to consider. For those who consider overseas manufacturing a "problem" :

    Have you ever purchased a part because it was more affordable? If so, you are part of the "problem".

    Supply and demand like a previous poster said. If you want it cheaper, someone will find a way to make it cheaper. This means cheaper labor.

    Nothin' more to it than that. If you don't want to drop $5000 on a full Deore bike with single wall rims, or $20000 on a decked out superlight, don't whine about cheaper labor.
    I AM HERE TO IRRITATE YOU SO THAT YOU POST MORE AND STAY OFF YOUR BIKE.

  23. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by DMFT
    ALL Treks $500.00 and up ARE Made in the USA - outsourced materials like tubing? - Probably.
    Santa Cruz IS making bikes in Taiwan, The Single Pivot Line & Hardtail. ALL VPP bikes are Made in the USA.
    It's called supply & demand in SCB's case...And as far as SCB getting "High Prices", have you really checked out the prices of Ellsworth, Ventana, Titus or Turner??? I wouldn't say their pricing is high at all.
    As far as I know, only Trek's carbon bikes are made in the US. Most of the other models I have sold have that "Made in (a country other than the US)" on the headtube. I may be mistaken, however.

  24. #24
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    Yes, I guess that's true ...

    I suppose the SC frames are considerably less expensive than those of the boutique builders. But I'm still wondering why people were grouping SC with builders like Ventana and Titus. I mean, why include SC and not all the others - Trek, Giant, etc. etc.

    And by no means am I knocking bikes made in China. I'm riding a Giant and a Jamis, so I'd be quite the hypocrite if I was knocking them. But if I had unlimited funds would I be riding a Giant or a Jamis? No, I'd be riding a Ventana or a Titus or something like that, to be sure. Heck, maybe even a Truth. Everyone I know who actually has one loves it.

  25. #25
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    No good hmmm, answer me this

    So are you saying that money in your pocket is more important than:

    worker treatment

    pollution(you can barely see accross the street in Shanghai)

    lost US jobs(do you know anyone in the bike industry that has lost their job because a company decided to manufacture in asia)

    generally a lower quality part (I'm not saying Asian vendors aren't skilled, but you get what you pay for)

    Read the article from Chris King again and then answer my questions. Keep sending your money to Asia and guess where all the money will be someday. Guess where it won't be.

    This is a much bigger deal than most of you think.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by funkenstein
    So are you saying that money in your pocket is more important than:

    worker treatment

    pollution(you can barely see accross the street in Shanghai)

    lost US jobs(do you know anyone in the bike industry that has lost their job because a company decided to manufacture in asia)

    generally a lower quality part (I'm not saying Asian vendors aren't skilled, but you get what you pay for)
    funkenstein, unless you have never bought a product from overseas/Asia because it was cheaper, than the answer to your own question is also...YES.
    People don't think it be like it is, but it do - Oscar Gamble

  27. #27
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    it's impossible

    Quote Originally Posted by The Weasel
    funkenstein, unless you have never bought a product from overseas/Asia because it was cheaper, than the answer to your own question is also...YES.
    Sure, I've bought Asian made parts. It's unavoidable. At least I think about the ramifications before doing so. Especially now. I'll be buying Asian made products only as a last resort. I'll gladly pay a little more for a US made part because I personally know people that have lost jobs because of the cheap skates that buy Asian made products. I mean, the mountain bike was "invented" in the US and within the next few years not many will be made here. How sad is that?

    and you can't include most Shimano parts in this discussion, Japan is a different story.

    where would the US be if everything was made overseas? We would be broke, homeless and no one would be employed. Are you willing to give your job up to someone in Asia because they can do the same work for cheaper? This has to stop somewhere. Take care of you and yours first then worry about the extra few pennies in your pocket.

  28. #28
    Yummy
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    Frankly, I don't buy into the whole "Buy (insert your country here) to save (same country) jobs".

    A job is a job and a person is a person. Who's to say a starving human being in a third world country should be denied a job because a (insert first world country) wants job security? At least the first world countries have some sort of social safety net. Without the job, the third world worker starves.

    The starving worker looks at a job in a sweatshop as an opportunity. That doesn't mean we shouldn't strive to improve worker conditions around the world, but taking away the work opportunities in the third world out of some perverted sense of patriotism doesn't sit well with me.

    This is my opinion. It is mine. It is an opinion.

    Kn.
    I used to be with it. Then, they changed what "it" is, and now what I'm with is no longer "it". And whatever "it" is, is strange and confusing.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by funkenstein
    Sure, I've bought Asian made parts. It's unavoidable. At least I think about the ramifications before doing so. Especially now. I'll be buying Asian made products only as a last resort. I'll gladly pay a little more for a US made part because I personally know people that have lost jobs because of the cheap skates that buy Asian made products.
    Don't get me wrong. I too prefer to keep ourselves employed. But as you said, it's unavoidable. Simple macro-economics mandate supply/demand pricepoints and somebody will find a way to hit them. I too will gladly pay a little extra for an american made product, but only when the quality is equal or superior. Who would be foolish enough to pay more for less? Otherwise what is the incentive for these manufactorers if everyone bought solely on origin?
    K'Endo also makes a strong point.
    People don't think it be like it is, but it do - Oscar Gamble

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by funkenstein

    Read the article from Chris King again and then answer my questions. Keep sending your money to Asia and guess where all the money will be someday. Guess where it won't be.

    This is a much bigger deal than most of you think.

    Actually, it is not a big deal. It is part of globalization. What do think happens to the money that goes to Asia, they put it in little boxes?? They hide it? No, it comes back to the US to purchase little items like Boeing 747's, Microsoft Windows, and John Deere Tractors.

    The arguement that by buying products manufactured overseas that we are hurting american jobs is simply a falacy promulgated by people that understand nothing about basic economics.

    CDMC

    Pr oudly looking at my BA in Economics from UCLA and my Doctorate from University of Oregon.

  31. #31
    blame me for missed rides
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    Quote Originally Posted by funkenstein
    So are you saying that money in your pocket is more important than:

    worker treatment
    read my reply in "american made bikes" thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by funkenstein
    pollution(you can barely see accross the street in Shanghai)
    where in Shanghai is the manufacturing plant you are talking about? most plants are NOT in the cities because the land is too expensive.

    Quote Originally Posted by funkenstein
    lost US jobs(do you know anyone in the bike industry that has lost their job because a company decided to manufacture in asia)
    ask Bush to create more.

    Quote Originally Posted by funkenstein
    generally a lower quality part (I'm not saying Asian vendors aren't skilled, but you get what you pay for)
    LOL! wrong. for the same money you get HIGHER quality part. "you get what you paid for" means $500 bike is inferior compared to $2000 bikes, but for the same money, $1000 Asia-made bikes are generally better than $1000 US-made bikes.

    Quote Originally Posted by funkenstein
    Read the article from Chris King again and then answer my questions. Keep sending your money to Asia and guess where all the money will be someday. Guess where it won't be.
    read my reply and learn about Asia. the real one.

    remember that those companies outsourcing their frames/parts pay tax as well.

  32. #32
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    DeeEight wrote...

    Santacruz is a bunch of former skateboard makers...
    I'm pretty sure you are wrong here. Santa Cruz skateboards is a different company which still exists and makes skateboards, surfboards and snowboards. They are loosely tied and share the same logo, but they have separate HQs down the street from one another. The bike designers are NOT all former skateboard makers.

    That misconseption comes from the fact that Rob Robscopp works there, and he was once a pro skateboarder.

  33. #33
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    yeah, you guys are right

    Quote Originally Posted by weather
    read my reply in "american made bikes" thread.



    where in Shanghai is the manufacturing plant you are talking about? most plants are NOT in the cities because the land is too expensive.



    ask Bush to create more.



    LOL! wrong. for the same money you get HIGHER quality part. "you get what you paid for" means $500 bike is inferior compared to $2000 bikes, but for the same money, $1000 Asia-made bikes are generally better than $1000 US-made bikes.



    read my reply and learn about Asia. the real one.

    remember that those companies outsourcing their frames/parts pay tax as well.
    My freind that lost his job because the company he worked for moved production to Asia was a figment of my imagination. I suppose he can get a job at Boeing or John Deere now. "That's OK, it's globalization" is what I will tell him. Weather and CDMC, you guys should volunteer to give up your high paying jobs because there is someone is Asia that can do the same work for next to nothing. Or, actually it would be higher quality for less money.

    Just how would you feel if YOU lost YOUR job to someone in another country? good for them? I bet they didn't teach you that in school doc. Maybe the company you work for will do just that while you're staring at the fancy degrees on your wall? I'm done with this thread. Buy conciously. Ignore at your own demise.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by funkenstein
    My freind that lost his job because the company he worked for moved production to Asia was a figment of my imagination. I suppose he can get a job at Boeing or John Deere now. "That's OK, it's globalization" is what I will tell him. Weather and CDMC, you guys should volunteer to give up your high paying jobs because there is someone is Asia that can do the same work for next to nothing. Or, actually it would be higher quality for less money.

    Just how would you feel if YOU lost YOUR job to someone in another country? good for them? I bet they didn't teach you that in school doc. Maybe the company you work for will do just that while you're staring at the fancy degrees on your wall? I'm done with this thread. Buy conciously. Ignore at your own demise.
    Boy that was such a mature response. The bottom line is there is more opportunity in this country than any other place in the world, it is just that most people are to lazy to put in the work neccessary. Don't believe me, then why are there people dying (literally) to get in this country from all over the world. Tell your friend to get an education and he won't find his low paying job being outsourced to a foreign country. I bet you the executives at the company your friend worked for didn't have their job outsourced!!! Before you go off on the crap that he can't afford to go to school, I don't want to hear it. My dad was going to pay for my College and dropped dead right after I started, I had to pay for it myself with loans, grants and working 30+ hours a week.

    As far as giving up my job for someone in asia that is impossible since 1) it is hard to them to show up in court, and 2) they are not admitted to the BAR association for the jurisdiction that I practice law and therefore cannot represent clients.


    P.S. This is Funkenstein's picture from his profile, need I say more about the level that his brain functions?
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  35. #35
    jcw
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    I hate to get involved in this thread...

    Quote Originally Posted by damion
    As far as I know, only Trek's carbon bikes are made in the US. Most of the other models I have sold have that "Made in (a country other than the US)" on the headtube. I may be mistaken, however.
    but I just hate seeing uninformed people (no slam against you Damion) making false statements about Trek. Sorry, I used to live about 20 miles from their factory, and knew many people (including my brother) that worked for them. Trek makes a majority of thier models in the US. I have a friend that is a welder in their Waterloo, WI factory. I don't think he welds any carbon frames . All frames on bikes priced over ~$550 are made in Wisconsin.

  36. #36
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    As far as I'm concerned...

    ...there's plenty of work in the US for higher-paying positions. We export significantly more low-paying jobs (manufacturing, low-skill jobs) and keep the specialized positions (bio-tech, IT, engineering). Also, we create more jobs net each year than lose them. For example:

    * Each year more people enter the workforce than leave it and job growth has kept pace. As proof our employment rate has maintained a steady state of ~6% for the past 16 years yet each presidential election the politico's use the argument the incumbent has watched millions of jobs disappear.
    * The government receieves more tax revenue than it ever has in spite of all these lost jobs, yet federal tax rates have fallen (thanks Bush).

    It's true, people have been put out of work because of what's been sent overseas. But it's really more an issue of job displacement. A factory worker may have lost work at a textile work, but if they had the ambition, they could re-education themselves to become IT workers. In fact, 70% of all IT workers did not receive their education originally in IT.. That's the beauty of the US system and that is why people come here to work. A father who works as a baker in other countries knows his son will more likely be a baker as well. No one is locked into the work they do here.

    We import high-paying manufacturing jobs as well from other countries. Honda employs directly 24,000 non-union workers in the US. Honda has invested almost 7 BILLION dollars in capital on US soil. Honda sources from more than 440 US suppliers and of course indirectly employs those suppliers' workers. (Unions have attempted to unionize the Honda Ohio plants at least three times in the last 7 years by employee vote and each time they fail miserably.) Honda must be doing something right. Doesn't sound like much but the auto industry employs almost 20% of the US workforce directly/indirectly.

    Then there are the Nissan plants, Toyota plants, Mercedes plants, BMW plants, Hyundai plants, and so on.

    Time and time again people refuse/choose to ignore reality when the clues are readily apparent their job will soon become extinct/move and it's their own damn fault for not seeing it coming. Horse-traders/breeders and cart makers refused to see it when the occcasional car rolled down the dirt roads in the late 1800's. Then more and more cars started appearing and so one. Does anyone cry for them today? Nope. Where did they go? Who know and who cares. If they were smart enought to re-educate themselves to become let's say car mechanics, then more power to them. If they starved (which I'm sure they didn't) then so be it.

    In my opinion, this country is about competition. Are you afraid to compete. Then boo-hoo, run to your mommy 'cause believe it or not, we're pretty spoiled and life can get rough. We compete amongst ourselves, our co-workers, other companies, other countries. So why not against other workers in other coutnries. What are you so afraid of? Busting your ass to keep your job? Showing value to your company by making yourself unique enough to convince your employers they need of? Fear, fear, fear. That's what drives too many of us. Let's grow some balls and figure out what it's going to take to beat whoever to make sure you can survive, whether on an individual, corporate, or national level.

    Anyway, the fact is this country has more to offer than any other country yet many never realize the potential they have to fulfill their dreams here. People on the outside recognize it and clearly so. You may see an individual from some distant land badmouth the US, but hand them a greencard and the next thing you''ll see are their footprints where they once stood. Have you heard of anyone willing to die to get back to any African nation? Eastern European nation? Western European nation? In other words, poorer nations. Absolutely, but they're in the minority because there are always exceptions. For the most part, the answer is no.

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    Wink I didn't know SC was made in taiwan...

    but now i really feel good about buying the Haro X3 over the Heckler. I tested them both and thought the Heckler was nice, but not $1000 premium for the name and a few pounds lighter. And they're both made in Taiwan!

    I drove my german car made in brazil to work to type this message on a computer made mainly in taiwan while thinking about my bike which was built in taiwan, japan, china, and the usa. Welcome to the real world. The USA only makes customer service these days, which is why people cry and moan so much when a "made in USA" company can't even do that well.

  38. #38
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    I have talked to a few people about this, One being Pippin from Banshee, and he has been to the pacific factory in Taiwan (where his bikes are made...) and he said that they are paid VERY well and that the conditions in that factory was better than some he has seen in N. America. Just because it was not made here does not automaticly mean that the workers are sub-standard or the conditions suck, do your homework and make the decision based on what you find out.

  39. #39

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    Taiwan is not a third world backwater anymore. The per capita income is ranked 21st in the world, ahead of several European "first world" countries like Switzerland, Belgium, and Sweden. Quite frankly, having lived in Los Angeles, there are some things like public transporation there that make the US look like the 3rd world country. There are plenty of labor legislation. I don't think you have to worry about 10 year old kids working 16 hours a day in sweatshops building your Blur frame.

    The bigger problem with Taiwan now is that unscrupulous businesses there are now setting up sweatshops in China and SE Asia.

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