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  1. #1
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    Transgender wins women’s cycling world championship.

    I feel sorry for the women that work their ass off to be the best cause their time is over.

    https://www.cbc.ca/sports/transgende...ling-1.4863381

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grooverider View Post
    I feel sorry for the women that work their ass off to be the best cause their time is over.

    https://www.cbc.ca/sports/transgende...ling-1.4863381
    Good for her. That accomplishment took a lot of hard work, for sure.

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    @grooverider I am not an expert in the subject but I think your statement might be a little misguided.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    Good for her. That accomplishment took a lot of hard work, for sure.
    So it is ok for a guy (anatomy) to compete with a woman and claim like he won it fair and square?


    Quote Originally Posted by sptimmy43 View Post
    @grooverider I am not an expert in the subject but I think your statement might be a little misguided.
    How so? It's a physical body of a man competing with women. How is that not wrong?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grooverider View Post
    So it is ok for a guy (anatomy) to compete with a woman and claim like he won it fair and square?
    So exactly what makes her competing with other women unfair?

    Are you sure she's anatomically a guy? Did you lift her skirt? Or did you mean genetically?

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    You might want to read the UCI rules, OP.


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    I read them actually and I still think separate category should be created.
    There's too much unknown to be able to determine fairness at this point.
    Just cause they artificially "sustain" certain chemicals in their bodies it doesn't mean everybody is reacting to it same way.
    There's a reason a lot of steroids are banned from athletes and if they get caught - disqualification.




    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    So exactly what makes her competing with other women unfair?


    Are you sure she's anatomically a guy? Did you lift her skirt? Or did you mean genetically?
    Do they modify bone & muscle structure in the process?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grooverider View Post
    Do they modify bone & muscle structure in the process?
    Different hormone levels in the body DO change muscle and bone composition. That's the point of the UCI's hormone rules.

    Osteoporosis has its origins with changes in hormone levels in the body, so of course.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grooverider View Post
    I read them actually and I still think separate category should be created.
    There's too much unknown to be able to determine fairness at this point.
    Just cause they artificially "sustain" certain chemicals in their bodies it doesn't mean everybody is reacting to it same way.
    There are a lot fewer unknowns than you think.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    So exactly what makes her competing with other women unfair?
    Maybe try imagining this happening in a different sport, like say women’s rugby or basketball. If there was a team made entirely of transgender men turned to women, even with hormone rules, do you think there would ever be a match or game that would end up fair or that they would loose, ever?
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    Different hormone levels in the body DO change muscle and bone composition. That's the point of the UCI's hormone rules.

    Osteoporosis has its origins with changes in hormone levels in the body, so of course.
    So they are charged with hormones and that again is ok for sports right?
    In biathlon when they find antibiotics in your system you can get disqualified unless you prove you were damn sick and needed them and here it is normal to get loads of chemicals in you and still it's fair and square? Bull.

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    Too much grey area so not fair to the other competitors IMO.
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    The ethics are clear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by singletrackmack View Post
    Maybe try imagining this happening in a different sport, like say women’s rugby or basketball. If there was a team made entirely of transgender men turned to women, even with hormone rules, do you think there would ever be a match or game that would end up fair or that they would loose, ever?
    Yep, 'cause there's going to be a flood of men transitioning so they can form a sports team and win championships. It doesn't work that way. There are trans athletes competing in many sports, and yet this is the first to win a major world championship. If they had such a competitive advantage, where is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grooverider View Post
    So they are charged with hormones and that again is ok for sports right?
    "Charged" with hormones implies unnaturally high levels. Pretty sure that's against doping regs for any sport, any gender, trans included. Pray tell, how are trans athletes "charged" with hormones above what would otherwise be natural levels?

    I guess teenagers in puberty should be banned from all sports then, since they're "charged" with hormones.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    Yep, 'cause there's going to be a flood of men transitioning so they can form a sports team and win championships. It doesn't work that way.
    It was a hypothetical question to try and help with perspective. So again...

    If there was an all transgender (male to female) women's rugby or basketball team, would it be fair for them to play all women (DNA) teams?

    If your answer is no, then please explain why a transgender women’s cyclist is fair.

    If your answer is yes, then please explain how you see there could be a fair match?
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    Quote Originally Posted by singletrackmack View Post
    It was a hypothetical question to try and help with perspective. So again...

    If there was an all transgender (male to female) women's rugby or basketball team, would it be fair for them to play all women (DNA) teams?

    If your answer is no, then please explain why a transgender women’s cyclist is fair.

    If your answer is yes, then please explain how you see there could be a fair match?
    It isn't going to happen, so how is your hypothetical useful? The more likely scenario is for a team to have at most a couple trans athletes. I don't see a problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    It isn't going to happen, so how is your hypothetical useful? The more likely scenario is for a team to have at most a couple trans athletes. I don't see a problem.

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    Man, are you a politician? That is a perfectly reasonable hypothetical that relates very well to the issue at hand and is very useful.

    Since you are having a hard time with that hypothetical and imiganing a hole team of transgender players (which is so obviously besides the point it is hilarious your trying to use that in your argument), how about if there was a transgender wrestler, boxer or weightlifter? Would that be fair?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tahoebeau View Post
    Man, are you a politician? That is a perfectly reasonable hypothetical that relates very well to the issue at hand and is very useful.

    Since you are having a hard time with that hypothetical and imiganing a hole team of transgender players (which is so obviously besides the point it is hilarious your trying to use that in your argument), how about if there was a transgender wrestler, boxer or weightlifter? Would that be fair?
    How is a hypothetical that is so unlikely to ever occur that it is likely to never happen a reasonable hypothetical scenario?

    Even in the case of other individual sports, I don't have a problem. I don't have a problem with trans people in bathrooms. I don't have a problem with trans people at all.

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    [QUOTE=Harold;13856337
    I don't have a problem with trans people at all. [/QUOTE]


    Me neither but I still don't think it's fair for them to compete against women, at least not at top level events. It probably won't matter much in a few decades anyway because I think genetically engineered athletes are coming.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    ... I don't have a problem with trans people in bathrooms. I don't have a problem with trans people at all.


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    I don’t have a problem with transgender people either. I don’t have a problem with special needs people, disabled people or people that are perfectly healthy either. But I do have a problem with perfectly healthy people competing in the special olympics because they have an unfair physical advantage just like men have an unfair physical advantage over women.

    The perfectly reasonable questions Mack and I asked clearly shows the unfair physical advantage transgender women athletes have regardless if you answer the question or not. But, by totally avoiding these perfectly reasonable questions, you clearly show you don’t think it would be fair.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tahoebeau View Post
    I don’t have a problem with transgender people either. I don’t have a problem with special needs people, disabled people or people that are perfectly healthy either. But I do have a problem with perfectly healthy people competing in the special olympics because they have an unfair physical advantage just like men have an unfair physical advantage over women.

    The perfectly reasonable questions Mack and I asked clearly shows the unfair physical advantage transgender women athletes have regardless if you answer the question or not. But, by totally avoiding these perfectly reasonable questions, you clearly show you don’t think it would be fair.
    Not sure where I stand on this personally, and I don't think your questions are unreasonable, but people who have transitioned do go through changes in musculature and in their skeleton. I don't know (well) anyone who has gone male to female, but I have a friend who is going female to male. His hips have narrowed and he is far more able to obtain muscle mass (though he says his overall strength hasn't gone up allot). The changes are not superficial but reach deep down, both physically and psychologically.

    I also have issues with the notion of fairness being sexually divided. Why is that the line? In some sports that might make sense but in others it makes less and I think it puts people into class that are far too limiting and also creates a situation where it being "fair" because it is all one sex is absurd.

    I'm a medium guy at 5' 9" but I have the legs of a 5' 3" guy. Is it fair for me to race sprints against 6' tall long legged women? What do we mean by fair in athletic competition? How many classes would it take to make something fair?

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    Whatever the rules state is fair. Would it be fair for a 26 year old basketball player to compete against a 17 year old? What about a 17 year old versus a 14 year old? You can't eliminate every advantage. A line will be drawn somewhere. A professional sports organization should be able to make whatever rules they want.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy3220 View Post
    Whatever the rules state is fair. Would it be fair for a 26 year old basketball player to compete against a 17 year old? What about a 17 year old versus a 14 year old? You can't eliminate every advantage. A line will be drawn somewhere. A professional sports organization should be able to make whatever rules they want.
    Reminds me of dutee chand, a female runner who has been barred from competition because she naturally produces too much testosterone.
    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/04/s...?module=inline


    Personally, i feel like anyone who willfully changes sexes should compete with the men. If the sex change harmed your performance then it was a choice you made, not your competitors.
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    To put this into perspective, this competition couldn't possibly be more niche. Women's masters track cycling aged 35-39.

    I'm certain that the 12 people who qualify globally for this category are outraged.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    How is a hypothetical that is so unlikely to ever occur that it is likely to never happen a reasonable hypothetical scenario?

    Even in the case of other individual sports, I don't have a problem. I don't have a problem with trans people in bathrooms. I don't have a problem with trans people at all.

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    Harold, I appreciate you on this forum, and I am honestly a little surprised to find myself disagreeing with you, because I rarely do. However, this issue is one that is growing, and hypotheticals are becoming reality. Here is an example that recently occurred in Connecticut high school sports:
    https://newyork.cbslocal.com/2018/06...debate-ensues/
    There are physiological differences other than hormonal between body types of transgender women and non-transgender women that will commonly give transgenders a physical advantage. I don't think it is fair, and I foresee many debates about this issue in the future.

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    Given all of the classifications, regulations, and genetic differences at every level of every sport, maybe we need to realize that competition is fun and whatnot, but in the grand scheme of things matters very little. I quit baseball, basketball, mountain bike racing, etc when I realized I was never going to be the best, and competition wasn't going to define me as a human. Since it is highly unlikely that competition will go away, then maybe we need to get rid of all classes and regulations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by phlegm View Post
    I'm certain that the 12 people who qualify globally for this category are outraged.


    Maybe true but you'd have to ask those 12 people to really know.
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    Not well educated on this subject but men do have a larger lung capacity which I don't think hormones will change. For cycling that could be a decent advantage. I'm sure it will be sorted out in time as details are discovered. Until then enjoy competing within the rules! Congrats to her on her world championship win.

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    Quote Originally Posted by singletrackmack View Post
    Maybe try imagining this happening in a different sport, like say women’s rugby or basketball.
    MMA?

    TBH I don't follow MMA or know a heck of a lot about it, but this very subect has come up on several Joe Rogan podcasts and, from what I've gathered in the discussions, there was a fairly mediocre male MMA fighter who transitioned and then kicked arse in the womans division for several fights. Also a Russian [IIRC] girl who is transitioning to male and taking testosterone but because of her schools regulations she still has to compete in the womans wrestling class, where she kicks arse.

    It's a massive clusterf**k of potential complications, and while I'm all for trans rights within every day life I feel there needs to be some sort of balance [based on science] when it comes to competitive sports, especially those involving physical contact or professionally where there's money on the line.

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    Quote Originally Posted by splitendz View Post
    There are physiological differences other than hormonal between body types of transgender women and non-transgender women that will commonly give transgenders a physical advantage. I don't think it is fair, and I foresee many debates about this issue in the future.
    There are far too many variables to be able to make blanket statements. Biology is not binary. An example was cited above of a woman (born that way) who produces large amounts of testosterone naturally, and has been prohibited from competition. I don't think she should be banned from competition, either.

    It's easy for people who fit into the traditional binary male/female to claim one way or another that competition "should" be this, or it "should" be that. What about those people who don't fit into the male/female binary structure exactly? What about people who are somewhere between those extremes? In the case of transgender people, they TRULY feel the opposite of what their DNA says they should be. It's extremely dehumanizing to force them into the opposite box for any reason. What about people who are genetically and physiologically both? Where do they compete? A lot of these people may not even be aware of it, because for so long (and they still do, I believe), doctors surgically modified their genitalia at birth. Do we have to do genetic testing on all athletes to weed out these people? No, that's ridiculous.

    When it comes to physiology, hormones rule the roost. You change the hormones, and everything changes along with them. Some changes take longer than others, but nothing changes that basic biology of things.

    I don't see the problem, honestly. IMO, if putting different genders together in competition doesn't HURT anyone, then have them compete together. Once you get enough people who fit a certain category, then you can split them off into their own category for final standings. I would prefer to see men and women competing together more frequently, anyway. Especially when comparable women's competitions receive so little money/support from sponsors and broadcasters.

    Take the Iceman Cometh mtb race, for example. Racers get split up in starting waves based on how fast they've demonstrated that they are in the past. Everybody. Groupings for final standings depend on how many people raced in your class. If you've got one person in a particular group, they don't get their own class. They get grouped with some other class. So what if that one person is faster than the rest of the people in the class they were grouped with? A new class doesn't get formed until there are enough people to warrant it. Other XC races I've done operate on a slightly different, but still somewhat similar principle. Classes with a similar speed (male and female) get sent out onto the course together. The classes depend on how many people who fit that grouping actually show up. So if there's one lady between 20-29 and 5 who are between 30-39, the two will get grouped, even if the younger lady is the faster one.

    Look at the actual results of the race in question.
    McKinnon finished the last race with times of 12.554 and 12.903sec Bronze medal winner finished in 13.291 and 12.888sec. The winner of the 5-8th place final was in 12.983sec.
    For the men in the same age class, the winner had times of 11.304 and 11.227sec, and the bronze finisher was 11.606 and 11.529sec. And the 5th-8th place final was 11.362sec.

    McKinnon's times are still competitive with the women in her age class.

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    I saw this really hot mountain biker chick on the trail today. I couldn't catch up to her. Apparently, she rides XC and was on her 5th lap on the circuit.
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    I just have to throw a bit of lol at this!

    For the record I could careless about what people do with their bodies, but let's face it, there would be an advantage.

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    Honestly they ban women athelete who NORMALLY have high levels of testosterone. But not men.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    YThere are trans athletes competing in many sports, and yet this is the first to win a major world championship. If they had such a competitive advantage, where is it?
    It's early days. Trans people form a fairly small part of society and of that group an even smaller part are active in competitive sports.

    Personally, I'm looking at that picture and thinking... that's a bloke. I believe people should be free to live their lives as they wish but there has to be a line. At the moment the wishes of minorities are being served even if it means the rights of others are being compromised and I don't agree with that.

    This is an extreme example but it makes the point: LINK

    Karen White was a sexual predator and rapist as a man from a young age. He/she has not had any surgery but, identifying as a woman, he/she was sent to a woman's prison. I have heard interviews with former inmates and their family member recounting the impact of that decision. He/she would share showers with women where he/she ogled other inmates. They were uncomfortable and intimidated by his/her presence and prison staff were powerless to do anything due to fears of being accused of discrimination. Unsurprisingly, Karen sexually assaulted the women who were locked in the same building as him/her.

    How can this happen? Clearly it shouldn't happen but if you are afraid to challenge the demands of the sexual revolutionaries then it's inevitable. The basic rights of these female prisoners were thrown out of the window in order to pacify the demands of a convicted rapist, because he/she found shelter under the iron dome of transgender equality.

    We need to stop being afraid to speak out against the confusion and problems being caused by this unprecedented identity revolution. Yes, you are free to live as you want to but you are not free to insist I agree with your choices. You are not free to trample the rights of others to assuage your own. Why is that so unreasonable?

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    XX, you race with the women. XY, you race with the men.

    That's pretty simple, isn't it?

    I'm certain that there are genetic outliers that can be dealt with on a case by case basis.
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    In high school, which was several decades ago, I set a state hs record in the 400m running race.

    It's still faster than the current women's world record time.

    Yeah, elite men are stronger than elite women - shocking.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    We need to stop being afraid to speak out against the confusion and problems being caused by this unprecedented identity revolution. Yes, you are free to live as you want to but you are not free to insist I agree with your choices. You are not free to trample the rights of others to assuage your own. Why is that so unreasonable?
    Whose rights are being trampled?

    You realize that rape doesn't depend on a person's gender or sexuality, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by juan_speeder View Post
    XX, you race with the women. XY, you race with the men.

    That's pretty simple, isn't it?
    It's not that simple. Your chromosomes aren't the ONLY determinant. It's one, and it's a major one, but there are many other things that have a significant affect on a person's biology and personhood.

    What do you think it does to a person to reject their personhood and shove them into a box they strongly do not identify with? Repeatedly. Over the course of their entire lives?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    Whose rights are being trampled?

    You realize that rape doesn't depend on a person's gender or sexuality, right?
    If you are going to be this obtuse I don't see any point in remonstrating with you.

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    I've thought about this question before, and a ready answer eludes me.

    One question is whether being transgender gives one an advantage for a given sport (think height, strength, etc). If so, there's an argument to be made that it's an unfair advantage. But I don't want to rely on my intuitive guesses, I'd want knowledgeable sports physiologists to educate me before I came to any conclusions. i doubt there would be clear answers on this.

    Let's say there is a demonstrable advantage. Is that necessarily unfair? If a man changed to a woman for the sole purpose of gaining a competitive advantage in a sport, then I'd say yes - however I expect that would happen rarely if ever. If a man changes to a woman because they feel that is truly who they are, then what's the difference between them and a woman born with larger bones, height, muscles and an adams apple?
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    Fair or not, if I were the silver medalist i would take solace in that I would never trade my medal for the life the winner has to live.

    I do think one should compete with the sex with which they were born. For the rare few born with both sets of plumbing, they can complete with the gender with which they identify.

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    I keep coming back to lung capacity. I believe men have a 30% greater capacity than women. That wouldn’t change, and it’s a key factor to performamce.

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    I'm all for equality! No question!

    There has to be some common sense when we are dealing with competitive sports.

    Biologically, if you were born a man, you are a man! It doesn't matter how/what you feel "as" you were born a man, therefore there is a LOT of work to become the opposite.

    Psychologically, I understand what Harold is saying, but physically is another story.

    Let's not forget this was a competition, not a "what rights do I have as tg" which is a whole different talk show.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muirenn View Post
    I keep coming back to lung capacity. I believe men have a 30% greater capacity than women. That wouldn’t change, and it’s a key factor to performamce.
    Not in the event that is being discussed here. Pure anaerobic.

    And, lung capacity has little to do with VO2 max, aerobic power, etc. Most people don’t process anywhere near all the oxygen they take in.




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    Quote Originally Posted by jcd46 View Post
    I'm all for equality! No question!

    There has to be some common sense when we are dealing with competitive sports.

    Biologically, if you were born a man, you are a man! It doesn't matter how/what you feel "as" you were born a man, therefore there is a LOT of work to become the opposite.

    Psychologically, I understand what Harold is saying, but physically is another story.

    Let's not forget this was a competition, not a "what rights do I have as tg" which is a whole different talk show.
    So, a 5' 5" male b-ball player should have no problem besting a 5' 11" female b-ball player because a man is a man no matter what his brain identifies his sexuality as?


    Point being, it's far too complex a discussion than to categorize people based simply on the sex organs they are born with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by robbnj View Post
    So, a 5' 5" male b-ball player should have no problem besting a 5' 11" female b-ball player because a man is a man no matter what his brain identifies his sexuality as?


    Point being, it's far too complex a discussion than to categorize people based simply on the sex organs they are born with.
    Who says this has to do with sexual organs? A male's anatomy is stronger than a female's, period.

    Otherwise, sports wouldn't be divided into M/F categories.

    A 5'6" male bb player would be stronger than a 5'11" female.
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    Quote Originally Posted by robbnj View Post
    Point being, it's far too complex a discussion than to categorize people based simply on the sex organs they are born with.
    You need to categorize them somehow and so far, that's worked reasonably enough for hundreds of years and is still the best we've got.

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    Quote Originally Posted by robbnj View Post
    So, a 5' 5" male b-ball player should have no problem besting a 5' 11" female b-ball player because a man is a man no matter what his brain identifies his sexuality as?


    Point being, it's far too complex a discussion than to categorize people based simply on the sex organs they are born with.
    This is kinda like the e-bikes problem, isn't it? Is it still a moped when the engine is turned off? Is it still a moped when it's only providing 250w of assistance?

    Stupid questions that we like to struggle with.
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    Just looked up her cycling stats. Her FTP is 270 watts / 3.39w/kg. She is far BELOW the average power amongst pro women. Which means she had absolutely zero competitive advantage by being a trans athlete in her category.

    Road and track cycling is isn't stricktly about power. Some of the most successful pros don't put out the highest power numbers which is a pure measurement of fitness. They win with excellent race craft.

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    Quote Originally Posted by robbnj View Post
    So, a 5' 5" male b-ball player should have no problem besting a 5' 11" female b-ball player because a man is a man no matter what his brain identifies his sexuality as?


    Point being, it's far too complex a discussion than to categorize people based simply on the sex organs they are born with.
    You ever heard of Muggsy Bogues?

    It's also far too complex to allow people to categorise themselves based on their feels. But it's far, far too small of a sample size to bother making exceptions for. At the rate we are going we'll have 72 podiums for all genders in a field of 50 riders.

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    Trans people have no place in sports unless they are willing to compete on their biological gender, to which they are just 2, which can be mayorly defined as XX and XY.

    Other extreme cases such as the girl who produces a lot of testosterone, people with more than 2 chromosomes and any other exception should and can be treated on a case by case basis and either be allowed or excluded from a certain sport category and that should be fine with society.

    Life isn't fair, we can treat everyone the same when they have known differences. You don't see people who suffer from spine bifida competing in elite sports, mostly because they can't and that is just a fact of life.

    Should a trans people born male, turned female be barred from competing in elite women sports? Absolutely. They were unlucky enough to be born with such an issue, but you can't bend the world just to please them or give them a fair treatment in elite sports.

    Society must ensure all this disabled or special individuals get to live a life with dignity, but that doesn't mean they should be able to compete in elite sports.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Not in the event that is being discussed here. Pure anaerobic.

    And, lung capacity has little to do with VO2 max, aerobic power, etc. Most people don’t process anywhere near all the oxygen they take in.




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    Neither of those comments make any sense. Why don't the women in the World Cycling Championships need aerobic endurance? Why is anaerobic endurance equal among women and men? Come on. Have you met any women?

    And yes, increased lung capacity leads to increased endurance. And gender is a factor.

    https://www.sportsscience.co/sport/how-to-increase-lung-capacity/



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    The point of having similar groups of people compete against one another is to have as level a playing field as possible. A transgender woman among cisgender women is not a level playing field. But hey, we'll smile publicly and act like it's okay, we are accustomed to being dismissed and trampled by men. No biggie.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcd46 View Post
    Who says this has to do with sexual organs? A male's anatomy is stronger than a female's, period.

    Otherwise, sports wouldn't be divided into M/F categories.

    A 5'6" male bb player would be stronger than a 5'11" female.
    Well, I guess you don't go to the same gym as me. Plenty of women there stronger than me and many of the other guys there. Yes the strongest male is stronger than the strongest female, but the overlap of strength curves between men and women is massive.



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    Quote Originally Posted by David R View Post
    MMA?

    TBH I don't follow MMA or know a heck of a lot about it, but this very subect has come up on several Joe Rogan podcasts and, from what I've gathered in the discussions, there was a fairly mediocre male MMA fighter who transitioned and then kicked arse in the womans division for several fights.

    Fallon Fox is her name. She fought several UFC sanctioned fights BEFORE announcing that she was transgender. She dominated all of her matches against women. The women that she faced are all in agreement that she hit harder than any other woman they had faced.
    Now that Fox has come out as transgender, no women will face her in the ring. A couple of guys have challenged her however.
    There is no denying that the male skeletal structure is different than females. The bones are denser. They are bigger. That all may or may not go away with estrogen use, however, that loss of density and strength takes years and years to take effect.
    Men also have wider shoulders, which gives them better leverage when swinging a punch. That does not go away with estrogen use.

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    Transgender wins women’s cycling world championship.

    Quote Originally Posted by Muirenn View Post
    Neither of those comments make any sense. Why don't the women in the World Cycling Championships need aerobic endurance? Why is anaerobic endurance equal among women and men? Come on. Have you met any women?

    And yes, increased lung capacity leads to increased endurance. And gender is a factor.

    https://www.sportsscience.co/sport/how-to-increase-lung-capacity/



    https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...69904805002685
    Dude. Look up the event she competes in. The specific event.

    Come on. You can do it.

    Hint: it’s less than a minute long. Significantly less, actually.



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    I guess everyone just skipped over my post showing her power output proving she had no competitive advantage? Her power output is lower than most of the people she raced against. Her large frame is an aero disadvantage both for dealing with drag and her competitors get a better draft.

    She won with a great race strategy. Might not be the case for all trans atheletes who might win world champs but it will be obvious when they have a 375+ FTP pushing over 5w/kg.

    Until a trans woman wins with more power output all of this talk against her doesn't hold any merit.

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    By some of the thought logic exhibited in posts here, this person should be allowed to compete in women's sports since he was born a woman and will always be a woman, no matter what his brain "thinks" he is.
    Interesting.

    -transgender-man-before-after-jamie-wilson-15.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fajita Dave View Post
    I guess everyone just skipped over my post showing her power output proving she had no competitive advantage? Her power output is lower than most of the people she raced against. Her large frame is an aero disadvantage both for dealing with drag and her competitors get a better draft.

    She won with a great race strategy. Might not be the case for all trans atheletes who might win world champs but it will be obvious when they have a 375+ FTP pushing over 5w/kg.

    Until a trans woman wins with more power output all of this talk against her doesn't hold any merit.
    The man masquerading as a woman had better spacial and motor abilities, giving him the advantage. To deny this is to deny science.


    https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...ly-than-women/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Schulze View Post
    The man masquerading as a woman had better spacial and motor abilities, giving him the advantage. To deny this is to deny science.


    https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...ly-than-women/
    I like how the article is littered with "mays" and "could bes" and never once quantifies the amount of the difference or even if it was statistically significant. But it does end with this:

    When the researchers compared the young people by age group, they saw the most pronounced brain differences among adolescents (13.4 to 17 years old), suggesting the sexes begin to diverge in the teen years. Males and females showed the greatest differences in inter-hemisphere brain connectivity during this time, with females having more connections between hemispheres primarily in the frontal lobe. These differences got smaller with age, with older females showing more widely distributed connections throughout the brain rather than just in the frontal lobe.

    I like how the differences begin as teens but get smaller with age. Even though they didn't test younger groups.

    And masquerading is pretty crappy way to describe what goes on in sex reassignment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Schulze View Post
    The man masquerading as a woman had better spacial and motor abilities, giving him the advantage. To deny this is to deny science.


    https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...ly-than-women/
    Really grabbing at straws now aren't we? Are you suggesting pro women aren't capable of the same strategic decisions in a race as men? The article says the "typical" woman's brain has better intuitive abilities which is generally the trademark of someone with excellent strategic choices in a race. Since the article uses the word "typical" are there any women who's brain activity closely resembles man's? Should women with brain activity that more resembles a man's be disqualified from racing?

    As Cholla pointed out the article is pretty inconclusive especially in the age 35-44 age bracket the race was in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by robbnj View Post
    By some of the thought logic exhibited in posts here, this person should be allowed to compete in women's sports since he was born a woman and will always be a woman, no matter what his brain "thinks" he is.
    Interesting.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Being born a woman he should compete with women, under the rules governing the women's sport. Now if he is taking hormones that would be illegal for women to take per the sport, the he would be disqualified.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fajita Dave View Post
    I guess everyone just skipped over my post showing her power output proving she had no competitive advantage? Her power output is lower than most of the people she raced against. Her large frame is an aero disadvantage both for dealing with drag and her competitors get a better draft.

    She won with a great race strategy. Might not be the case for all trans atheletes who might win world champs but it will be obvious when they have a 375+ FTP pushing over 5w/kg.

    Until a trans woman wins with more power output all of this talk against her doesn't hold any merit.
    Yeah I can fudge figures too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Battery View Post
    I saw this really hot mountain biker chick on the trail today. I couldn't catch up to her. Apparently, she rides XC and was on her 5th lap on the circuit.
    Unicorns don't exist.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IPunchCholla View Post

    And masquerading is pretty crappy way to describe what goes on in sex reassignment.
    I usually refer to them as mentally ill.

    The increased spatial and motor abilities that the mentally ill individual possessed may have helped him plot and execute a better strategy than his competitors.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fajita Dave View Post
    I guess everyone just skipped over my post showing her power output proving she had no competitive advantage? Her power output is lower than most of the people she raced against. Her large frame is an aero disadvantage both for dealing with drag and her competitors get a better draft.

    She won with a great race strategy. Might not be the case for all trans atheletes who might win world champs but it will be obvious when they have a 375+ FTP pushing over 5w/kg.

    Until a trans woman wins with more power output all of this talk against her doesn't hold any merit.
    I make 375w FTP. I'm a shitty athlete cuz i eat too much. She's a shitty athlete cuz she decided to take a cocktail of drugs and surgery and crippled her performance. We were both born men, and have enjoyed the benefits as we've chosen. I have as much right to compete as a woman as he does.

    A crippled man is still a man, even if it's self inflicted.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottzg View Post
    I make 375w FTP. I'm a shitty athlete cuz i eat too much. She's a shitty athlete cuz she decided to take a cocktail of drugs and surgery and crippled her performance. We were both born men, and have enjoyed the benefits as we've chosen. I have as much right to compete as a woman as he does.

    A crippled man is still a man, even if it's self inflicted.
    All of the most up to date research on the subject shows gender isn't a "black and white" kind of thing. Besides the fact that 1 in 20,000 males are born with two X chromosomes (female) instead of XY; being transexual is NOT a mental illness. It generally happens during neurological development as a fetus. The irony is anyone assuming this is a mental illness issue is most likely the one with a phobia or mental illness themselves. Schulze, before making rediculous assumptions do some research which is literally what I just did within 5 mins to find this info.

    Theories of the Causes of Transsexualism

    Most pro women hover around 4+ w/kg. Being at 3.5 McKinnon didn't have any performance advantage in the field she was competing in within the UCI rules.

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    My turn to chime in. I actually am transgender. Male to Female. My opinion on this is unclear to be honest. I don't know what to think or where to stand. Probably why I'll never enter into races or the sort. I do take hormones. I take two to increase my estrogen and one to decrease my testosterone. I've been on them for over a year and I have noticed significant muscle loss. Skeleton is still the same since I started so late.

    Now a lot of this depends on when a person begins the hormone treatment. The younger they are the better to a degree. Of course being an adult or a late aged teenager is required in my opinion.

    Also going by XY and XX alone is impossible since there is a small population of females born with just XY chromosomes.

    So again I see this from both sides and I wish there was a simple answer. I don't see one coming any time soon.
    Will swerve for leaves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Schulze View Post
    I usually refer to them as mentally ill.

    The increased spatial and motor abilities that the mentally ill individual possessed may have helped him plot and execute a better strategy than his competitors.
    And I usually call people like you, who feel free to define other people on the smallest pieces of information insecure humans hiding behind a totalitarian mindset, usually too stupid to understand nuance and shades of grey. Or an asshole for short.

    Even the article that was linked explicitly said you can't draw conclusions about the individual from their highly inconclusive study.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muirenn View Post
    A transgender woman among cisgender women is not a level playing field. But hey, we'll smile publicly and act like it's okay, we are accustomed to being dismissed and trampled by men. No biggie.
    Good to hear a view from a woman, thank you. It highlights the point that we are all so caught up with the principals that we are ignoring the outcome. But to stay with the principals, what we are talking about here is transgender rights. That's what they are fighting for, and getting. Legal and societal rights, but honestly, I don't get it.

    Up until very recently it was impossible to change your gender. You could argue that it still is but that aside, without very advanced surgical and chemical techniques it would not be possible for a man who decided they wanted to be a woman and do anything about it. This option has only been possible for the last few decades. For the vast majority of people in the world today who do not have access to this technology it is still impossible today.

    How can it be your right to have something which has only just become possible through advanced technology? For most of human history any man who announced that they wanted to be allowed to compete as a woman would have been laughed out of the room. Why has that changed because we now have medical interventions that can make a man look quite like a woman?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muirenn View Post
    The point of having similar groups of people compete against one another is to have as level a playing field as possible. A transgender woman among cisgender women is not a level playing field. But hey, we'll smile publicly and act like it's okay, we are accustomed to being dismissed and trampled by men. No biggie.
    There was no need to sneak in an anti-male cut there. Let's keep this civil.

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    Quote Originally Posted by phlegm View Post
    There was no need to sneak in an anti-male cut there.
    She was making a point and I think a valid one. While we're all debating the rights of transgender people we should be considering the rights of the women affected. How do they feel about this? Should their feelings and rights be ignored? Because right now it seems like they are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Dude. Look up the event she competes in. The specific event.

    Come on. You can do it.

    Hint: it’s less than a minute long. Significantly less, actually.



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    I am not a 'Dude.'

    Honestly, it doesn't matter. Until I was 18 years old, I was a serious ballet dancer. At the end, I was an apprentice at a major company. I was also a cyclist. When I was 18, I decided to join the Marine Corps. (yeah, I know, that doens't make sense. Whatever). When I was 29 years old, I started doing mixed martial arts. I also went to the gym a lot throughout. You know I'm still a cyclist. I'm 49, btw. With the exception of ballet, all of those activities are male-dominated.

    I have never seen any evidence that men were not physically superior in any situation where they were pitted against women. Women do usually have better dexterity and flexibility, but not always. The very idea that a trans woman competing among cisgender woman is physically fair is laughable.

    I provided a sports study, and a refereed study. You provided an opinion that duration matters. I provided examples from my own cisgender female sports training life. You have nothing to compare.

    The End.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    She was making a point and I think a valid one. While we're all debating the rights of transgender people we should be considering the rights of the women affected. How do they feel about this? Should their feelings and rights be ignored? Because right now it seems like they are.
    Not saying there's no point, but it can be made without insults.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    She was making a point and I think a valid one. While we're all debating the rights of transgender people we should be considering the rights of the women affected. How do they feel about this? Should their feelings and rights be ignored? Because right now it seems like they are.
    Well, I found this and she wasn’t happy about it.

    https://www.foxnews.com/sports/not-f...oman-wins-gold

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    Quote Originally Posted by phlegm View Post
    I'm certain that the 12 people who qualify globally for this category are outraged.

    Apparently at least one of them was.


    Quote Originally Posted by Grooverider View Post
    Well, I found this and she wasn’t happy about it.

    https://www.foxnews.com/sports/not-f...oman-wins-gold
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muirenn View Post
    I provided examples from my own cisgender female sports training life.
    I object to the term cisgender and I won't use it. Heterosexual people make up the vast majority of the world's so there is nothing wrong with calling a woman normal, natural, real etc. This fabricated terminology is agenda driven and aims to blur the lines. The goal is to foster the idea that there is no 'normal' and that all identities are equal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muirenn View Post
    I am not a 'Dude.'

    Honestly, it doesn't matter. Until I was 18 years old, I was a serious ballet dancer. At the end, I was an apprentice at a major company. I was also a cyclist. When I was 18, I decided to join the Marine Corps. (yeah, I know, that doens't make sense. Whatever). When I was 29 years old, I started doing mixed martial arts. I also went to the gym a lot throughout. You know I'm still a cyclist. I'm 49, btw. With the exception of ballet, all of those activities are male-dominated.

    I have never seen any evidence that men were not physically superior in any situation where they were pitted against women. Women do usually have better dexterity and flexibility, but not always. The very idea that a trans woman competing among cisgender woman is physically fair is laughable.

    I provided a sports study, and a refereed study. You provided an opinion that duration matters. I provided examples from my own cisgender female sports training life. You have nothing to compare.

    The End.
    I use "dude" to refer to men and women. It has nothing to do with your gender.

    My opinion that "duration" matters is not an opinion; it's a scientific fact that in the event that Dr. McKinnon won, the anaerobic energy pathway, fueled by ATP and creatine phosphate, is what provides the energy to propel the athlete.

    In that case, please tell me how LUNG CAPACITY, the point that I was addressing, has anything to do with physical performance. If oxygen is not being used as fuel, lung capacity, and the ability to take in that substance NOT being used as fuel, has no bearing on physical performance in that realm.

    I'm not arguing any of the other points you seem to think I am; I am only arguing your "point" that lung capacity was an issue here. It wasn't, isn't today and never will be in this event.

    DAVIS, B. et al. (2000) The Interrelationship of the energy system and their threshold points [Diagram]. In: Physical Education and the Study of Sport. London: Harcourt Publishers p.139

    Or, a website that cites that author, with some simple charts:

    https://www.brianmac.co.uk/energy.htm

    Note that we are only concerned with the first three rows here, given the event that Dr. McKinnon participated in.
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    A complicated issue. Interesting points being made. My takeaway? I blame Canada.

    In all seriousness, I can’t help but feel some degree of sympathy for the silver and bronze finishers who have possibly been devoting the better parts of their lives to competitive cycling. To me at least, there is something inherently unsettling about the outcome.
    Last edited by mtnbkrmike; 3 Weeks Ago at 11:32 AM.

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    Now, to address the other half of your statement. Don't have any access to databases at the moment, but here's a pretty good article from the rowing world, from a high level elite athlete who happens to be a physiologist.

    Making sense of breathing, VO2max and lung capacity - worldrowing.com

    Simply put, if lung volume were the only driving factor in human performance, we'd measure lung volume and then hand out medals. We do not do that.

    The ability to actually PROCESS the oxygen taken in, produce power and remove it from the system? Yes, that's far more important. Which is the reason why people measure VO2 max, not lung volume, when trying to get an idea about an individual's physiological capacity and potential. VO2 max is an actual measurement of liters of oxygen consumed per minute per kilogram of body weight.
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    I’m surprised this thread hasn’t been moved to the “Transgender Fairness in Competing” forum.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
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  81. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    I object to the term cisgender and I won't use it. Heterosexual people make up the vast majority of the world's so there is nothing wrong with calling a woman normal, natural, real etc. This fabricated terminology is agenda driven and aims to blur the lines. The goal is to foster the idea that there is no 'normal' and that all identities are equal.
    Why? Some very ancient cultures on this planet of ours recognized more than 2 distinct genders. ALL of it is "normal" using your words.

    A Map of Gender-Diverse Cultures | Independent Lens | PBS

    But the thing is, words like "normal" and "natural" are so vague that they're meaningless. Not just in relation to gender. In relation to everything. Define "normal" and "natural" as a thought experiment and let's see where this goes. Hint: I've played this game many times. You can't define "normal" or "natural" without using more vague language. Other words are always better used, with clearer meanings.

    Cisgender and Transgender are actually really clever words to describe how people are that refer to chemical structures. cis- and trans- molecules have the same chemical formula, but their shapes, and therefore, their chemistry in biological systems differ. When doing reactions in a lab, you'll get both cis- and trans- molecules. However, enzymes in a biological system are able to control whether a molecule produced is cis- or trans-. Biological systems tend to produce mostly cis- molecules. Therefore, using cisgender to refer to the most common gender/sexuality combinations in a population makes perfect sense.

    Frankly, I think the vague language is absolutely intentional. I think the whole point of this thread was to belittle transgender people. Look at the title. "Transgender wins..." No reference to transgender WOMAN wins women's cycling world championship, because that language would confer at least SOME respect to McKinnon's personhood. No, there is none of that in the OP. And I see none of that from you in your responses, either.

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    But the thing is, words like "normal" and "natural" are so vague that they're meaningless.
    Harold, is there something you're not telling us? Like the name Haroldina? If 95% of the population is a certain sexual demographic then yes, you can say that it is normal. The term is perfectly meaningful and well understood by anyone without an agenda.

    I'd like to highlight something from the article linked to above. From that article:

    McKinnon labeled critics as “transphobic bigots” and pointed out that Wagner could face sanctions for allegedly violating the USA Cycling’s policy against harassment for “creating hostile environments or disparaging remarks against people on the basis of gender identity.”
    This is very typical of how sexual revolutionaries are fighting their war on anyone who dares to question their skewed minority views. Label them as bigots and threaten them with legal action. What happened to free speech? What happened to the right to hold opinions? They don't care about that. They will use any tactics available to silence those who disagree with them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IPunchCholla View Post
    And I usually call people like you, who feel free to define other people on the smallest pieces of information insecure humans hiding behind a totalitarian mindset, usually too stupid to understand nuance and shades of grey. Or an asshole for short.

    Even the article that was linked explicitly said you can't draw conclusions about the individual from their highly inconclusive study.

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    Well you are free to spit out whatever hyperbole satisfies your altruism impulse, but we have people mutilating their body and injecting themselves with compounds to pretend to be something they can never be. Considering that almost half of them attempt suicide, it is reasonable to assert that it is a mental illness. Maybe if it were treated as such and they got the psych help they needed, this wouldn't happen....



    https://www.syracuse.com/crime/index...pinion_article

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    Harold, is there something you're not telling us? Like the name Haroldina? If 95% of the population is a certain sexual demographic then yes, you can say that it is normal. The term is perfectly meaningful and well understood by anyone without an agenda.
    I'm just not an asshole.

    What about the other 5%? Are they NOT normal?

    In statistics, NORMAL is a very specific thing, and it means the WHOLE population, with a very specific distribution. 100% of the sampled population. AVERAGE is a single value on that distribution. You can divide the distribution into "middle 50%" or whatever subset you really like, but "normal" doesn't describe any subset of the population. When it comes to gender descriptions, "normal" doesn't really reflect what's going on, anyway. Bimodal would be a more accurate description, but there are still the less numerous folks at the various tails and low points in that distribution. They're still part of the distribution.

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    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ion/717758002/

    Transgenderism is no longer considered a mental health disorder.


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    Last edited by Leafkiller; 3 Weeks Ago at 11:02 AM. Reason: Added info
    Will swerve for leaves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Schulze View Post
    Well you are free to spit out whatever hyperbole satisfies your altruism impulse, but we have people mutilating their body and injecting themselves with compounds to pretend to be something they can never be. Considering that almost half of them attempt suicide, it is reasonable to assert that it is a mental illness. Maybe if it were treated as such and they got the psych help they needed, this wouldn't happen....



    https://www.syracuse.com/crime/index...pinion_article
    LGBT people have high suicide rates because they're marginalized by assholes in society. They feel like they can't be themselves, and that puts enormous strain on a person.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Schulze View Post
    Well you are free to spit out whatever hyperbole satisfies your altruism impulse, but we have people mutilating their body and injecting themselves with compounds to pretend to be something they can never be. Considering that almost half of them attempt suicide, it is reasonable to assert that it is a mental illness. Maybe if it were treated as such and they got the psych help they needed, this wouldn't happen....



    https://www.syracuse.com/crime/index...pinion_article


    Try being subjected to the vitriol, bigotry, discrimination and outright hatred that many of these people experience daily and tell us about your mental state. Little wonder that the rate is so high. It has nothing to do with mental illness in most cases imho.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    LGBT people have high suicide rates because they're marginalized by assholes in society. They feel like they can't be themselves, and that puts enormous strain on a person.
    Actually, they are LGBT because they are mentally ill, and that illness also contributes to their suicide rates. I see LBGT doing most of the persecuting, anyway. Bake my cake or else, bigot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Schulze View Post
    Actually, they are LGBT because they are mentally ill, and that illness also contributes to their suicide rates. I see LBGT doing most of the persecuting, anyway. Bake my cake or else, bigot.
    science does not agree with you, jackass

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    science does not agree with you, jackass



    You are wasting your time, people that have that much hatred in them cannot be reached.
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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    Try being subjected to the vitriol, bigotry, discrimination and outright hatred that many of these people experience daily and
    That doesn't happen unless your town got overrun by ISIS. Daily? lol. You're must be trolling and trying to make pro LGBT people seem unhinged.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    I'm just not an asshole.
    So, you are saying that anyone who thinks it might be unfair for a man who decides he's a women to compete against women is an asshole? Epic.

    LGBT people have high suicide rates because they're marginalized by assholes in society.
    So again, it's everyone else's fault? No possibility that they kill themselves because they are fundamentally confused and disturbed people? I work beside gay people and in my experience no one marginalises them. They are treated like anyone else, as they should be. Really Harold, I think I'm going to have to ignore you again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    science does not agree with you, jackass
    Implying that it agrees with you....

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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    You are wasting your time, people that have that much hatred in them cannot be reached.
    Let's see, the pro LGBT people want to keep denying the illness and let them continue their 40% attempted suicide rate while spewing hatred against normal people who mostly don't care one bit who is LGBT

    vs

    Me, who wants them to get the help they need and seek real healing.

    Sounds like you have more hatred than me. A LOT more!

  95. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    So again, it's everyone else's fault? No possibility that they kill themselves because they are fundamentally confused and disturbed people? I work beside gay people and in my experience no one marginalises them. They are treated like anyone else, as they should be. Really Harold, I think I'm going to have to ignore you again.
    There's a good chance that they have not chosen to share with you the kinds of shit they've had to deal with in their lives. I can't imagine why not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    There's a good chance that they have not chosen to share with you the kinds of shit they've had to deal with in their lives. I can't imagine why not.
    This persecution is like UFO sightings. Only the person experiencing it knows about it and its totally unverifiable by anyone else, but there are a bunch of smug people who are just SO SURE it's an epidemic driving people to kill themselves.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post

    So again, it's everyone else's fault? No possibility that they kill themselves because they are fundamentally confused and disturbed people? I work beside gay people and in my experience no one marginalises them. They are treated like anyone else, as they should be. Really Harold, I think I'm going to have to ignore you again.
    Mine, too. I've never seen a gay be treated different. I think we're going to see an uptick of LGBT persecution false flag events to match the Muslim persecution and racial persecution fakes that happen regularly. In the absence of real hate, manufacture some!

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    Not really, I saw my friend bashed because he was gay, chased the people off but didn't catch them. I've been with my trans friend when people called him a freak. He stopped me from doing anything about it, because it happens to him almost every he goes out. Most of my LGBTQ friends have been assaulted at some point by people they don't know, just for being who they are. I haven't witnessed all of them, but sure, they are punching themselves in the face repeatedly just to trick people.

    What happens when they go to the cops? Half the time they are ignored, no statement is taken, unless they bring a straight male friend with them. Even the people who are supposed to help them, humiliate them.

    But it is LGBTQ people who have the problem, not the mental reprobates who commit crimes against our fellow human beings. Whatever. I'm going back to biking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IPunchCholla View Post
    Not really, I saw my friend bashed because he was gay, chased the people off but didn't catch them.
    hold on, someone said something mean so you tried to physically assault them? Man that doesn't sound good. That sounds really totalitarian and controlling.

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    I can't believe the times we live in.. and that some of you actually think this is ok. It's not right.. Politically correct babies. Yes it's unfair.. and yes, I have A LOT more I can say regarding the whole transgender topic but I will reserve that for a different forum, lest I sound too "religious". God help us.

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