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  1. #101
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    I suppose some of you are ok with girls in the BOY scouts too.. because we can't discriminate now can we?

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by mannyfnz View Post
    I suppose some of you are ok with girls in the BOY scouts too.. because we can't discriminate now can we?


    Why should we be okay with discrimination?
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  3. #103
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    Iíve been biting my tongue long enough in this thread. Ahhh. . screw it, Iíll keep biting, itís not worth the back and forth banter to me anymore. Itís one of those topics that will never be accepted one way or the other by all.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schulze View Post
    Let's see, the pro LGBT people want to keep denying the illness and let them continue their 40% attempted suicide rate while spewing hatred against normal people who mostly don't care one bit who is LGBT

    vs

    Me, who wants them to get the help they need and seek real healing.

    Sounds like you have more hatred than me. A LOT more!
    What illness do LGBT people have, exactly?

    And, what are your qualifications, that help you assess and diagnose these conditions?



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  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    So, you are saying that anyone who thinks it might be unfair for a man who decides he's a women to compete against women is an asshole? Epic.



    So again, it's everyone else's fault? No possibility that they kill themselves because they are fundamentally confused and disturbed people? I work beside gay people and in my experience no one marginalises them. They are treated like anyone else, as they should be. Really Harold, I think I'm going to have to ignore you again.
    You sound like the white people who say that racism no longer exists because they donít see it.


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  6. #106
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    When I meet a transgender person, I admit a can be a little weirded out. Same as when I think about gay men having sex. But that's my problem, not theirs, and it's up to me to handle it and get over it. I believe the only thing wrong with being gay or trans is the grief and rejection it engenders from intolerant people. These are people who don't like different, especially when it comes to fundamental things like sex. It's okay to be uncomfortable. It's not okay to turn that into hatred and rejection of those who have hurt no one. And to use religion as an excuse for such behavior is wrong.
    Use it, use it, use it while you still have it.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muirenn View Post
    I keep coming back to lung capacity. I believe men have a 30% greater capacity than women. That wouldnít change, and itís a key factor to performamce.
    Lung capacity is strongly related to frame size. Men tend to have a higher lung capacity than women because men generally have larger frames. However, there's considerable variability in this. When I conduct cardiopulmonary exercise testing (VO2 peak), I vastly prefer to conduct pulmonary function tests, particularly Maximal Voluntary Ventilation (MVV), as well so that I can more accurately estimate lung capacity - but it's still just an estimate.

    One of the variables that is calculated from MVV is "Breathing Reserve" or BR. Most people that poop out on a cardiopulmonary stress test still have > 50% of their BR left. This actually makes sense - most of us we quit because we're tired, not because we can't move air in and out anymore. Some people, usually elite athletes, will have BR that are < 10%. They are the exception, not the rule. Hell, some even have BR that are a negative percentage, something that's only possible because somewhere there is an error in an estimate. All of this is just a long way of saying that lung capacity is poorly correlated with performance.

    When I write cardiopulmonary stress test reports on transgendered individuals (it's happened a few times) I compare their results to the age and gender based norms for their biologic gender, especially if they transitioned after puberty. It's not a perfect comparison, because hormone therapy does change muscle and fat ratios, but it's the best we can do until there is enough data to develop specific transgender norms. I tell the transgendered person why I'm doing it that way, and to date every one has understood completely. Out of respect for the individual, I do use the pronouns that are appropriate for the gender they identify as.

  8. #108
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    I think this thread has veeered way off course from its original intended purpose. Putting discrimination aside for a minute.

    The question is: Should transgenders be allowed to compete in sporting competitions against the gender they were transformed into? A male transformed into a female competing against female athletes, is that fair or not? Many varied opinions on the topic and it will never be determined one way or the other on a mountain bike website.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairbanks007 View Post
    Lung capacity is strongly related to frame size. Men tend to have a higher lung capacity than women because men generally have larger frames. However, there's considerable variability in this. When I conduct cardiopulmonary exercise testing (VO2 peak), I vastly prefer to conduct pulmonary function tests, particularly Maximal Voluntary Ventilation (MVV), as well so that I can more accurately estimate lung capacity - but it's still just an estimate.

    One of the variables that is calculated from MVV is "Breathing Reserve" or BR. Most people that poop out on a cardiopulmonary stress test still have > 50% of their BR left. This actually makes sense - most of us we quit because we're tired, not because we can't move air in and out anymore. Some people, usually elite athletes, will have BR that are < 10%. They are the exception, not the rule. Hell, some even have BR that are a negative percentage, something that's only possible because somewhere there is an error in an estimate. All of this is just a long way of saying that lung capacity is poorly correlated with performance.

    When I write cardiopulmonary stress test reports on transgendered individuals (it's happened a few times) I compare their results to the age and gender based norms for their biologic gender, especially if they transitioned after puberty. It's not a perfect comparison, because hormone therapy does change muscle and fat ratios, but it's the best we can do until there is enough data to develop specific transgender norms. I tell the transgendered person why I'm doing it that way, and to date every one has understood completely. Out of respect for the individual, I do use the pronouns that are appropriate for the gender they identify as.
    Thank you.

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  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    I think this thread has veeered way off course from its original intended purpose. Putting discrimination aside for a minute.

    The question is: Should transgenders be allowed to compete in sporting competitions against the gender they were transformed into? A male transformed into a female competing against female athletes, is that fair or not? Many varied opinions on the topic and it will never be determined one way or the other on a mountain bike website.
    After much consideration the only solution I can come up with just having a co-ed division on any competition. This I would enter into.

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  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    I think this thread has veeered way off course from its original intended purpose. Putting discrimination aside for a minute.

    The question is: Should transgenders be allowed to compete in sporting competitions against the gender they were transformed into? A male transformed into a female competing against female athletes, is that fair or not? Many varied opinions on the topic and it will never be determined one way or the other on a mountain bike website.
    Agreed. As I said earlier, I canít help but feel some degree of sympathy for the silver and bronze finishers who have possibly been devoting the better parts of their lives to competitive cycling. To me at least, there is something inherently unsettling about the outcome.

    This has nothing to do with me being intolerant, because I am not. Far from it. I couldnít care less what people choose to do with their lives, so long as it doesnít unfairly impact others.

    I have not read the underlying rules but where is the line to be drawn here? What criteria are to be employed? What about someone who was born genetically as a male (please pardon my nomenclature, to the extent it is unintentionally insensitive) but who relates or equates themself as a female but who has not undergone any hormonal treatment or other medical intervention? Should that person be allowed to compete against females? I appreciate this is at the extreme end of the spectrum but it is confusing to me what criteria are to be employed in determining these issues.

    And what about those who have ulterior motives? I heard about someone who used this to their advantage so as to secure cheaper auto insurance.

    Hopefully that makes sense, and apologies again for any unintentional insensitivity or inappropriate nomenclature.
    Last edited by mtnbkrmike; 4 Weeks Ago at 03:25 PM.

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leafkiller View Post
    After much consideration the only solution I can come up with just having a co-ed division on any competition. This I would enter into.
    The funny thing is if that happened, based on the world record times/results for pretty much anything sort of physical sport you would see men dominating about 99% of everything, which would thoroughly disprove the feminst types who claim that everyone is all equal in every aspects.

    The real problem is the identity politics involved with the subject means that we can't even have a rational science-based discussion about the differences between men and woman and how that effects the in-betweens when it comes to something like gender-based competition.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by mannyfnz View Post
    ... lest I sound too "religious". God help us.
    [Ends rant about not wanting to be too religious with deity reference.] Classic.

  14. #114
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    Transgender wins womenís cycling world championship.

    Quote Originally Posted by David R View Post
    The funny thing is if that happened, based on the world record times/results for pretty much anything sort of physical sport you would see men dominating about 99% of everything, which would thoroughly disprove the feminst types who claim that everyone is all equal in every aspects.

    The real problem is the identity politics involved with the subject means that we can't even have a rational science-based discussion about the differences between men and woman and how that effects the in-betweens when it comes to something like gender-based competition.
    Being married to a feminist, and being for equality myself, I donít think many feminists would say that men and women are physically equal. Most women want the opportunity to compete, not to compete against men. They want equality of opportunity, not outcome.

    Now, as science goes, the line between man and woman is significantly blurred when a man undergoes a hormone therapy program. As are the physical capacities after that treatment. If people donít understand this, I canít help them.

    That said, the multiplicative or subtractive impacts of hormone therapy arenít well quantified. So, personally, if you go that route, you should have to compete with the men.


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  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Being married to a feminist, and being for equality myself, I donít think many feminists would say that men and women are physically equal. Most women want the opportunity to compete, not to compete against men. They want equality of opportunity, not outcome.

    Now, as science goes, the line between man and woman is significantly blurred when a man undergoes a hormone therapy program. As are the physical capacities after that treatment. If people donít understand this, I canít help them.


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    Well said. I'm in the same boat (marriage-wise).

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