Transgender rider 3rd in women's DH race at Leogang- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    New question here. Transgender rider 3rd in women's DH race at Leogang

    So, curious to hear thoughts on this one? I certainly think it's absolute BS, totally unfair to the real women who work and train so hard to win, only to have a position taken away by a man, who most likely couldn't hack it against other men and so decided to give this "work-around" a go I'm not really against people do whatever they want, but you CANNOT change your gender properties, no matter what hormone treatment you undergo.
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  2. #2
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    It's BS! I posted a similar situation in the weird and whacky news thread, track/field related.

    Like you, I don't care what people do, but for competition, it's not fair to women, period.
    Last edited by jcd46; 1 Week Ago at 11:34 AM.
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    Was he/she on an Ebike?
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  4. #4
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    Wow, there is a big argument over it. You can read the comments below from the Fort William race.

    https://www.pinkbike.com/news/result...p-dh-2019.html
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  5. #5
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    If born a male you will have natural advantages if competing against most females. This is simply not a fair competition....

    But then, he cheated and did not take first ... things that make you go hmmmmm.

  6. #6
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    I did find an article from 2018 about Kate Weatherly. Apparently the testosterone medication dropped her testosterone levels below a woman's level. I still don't think it changes much even with lower testosterone levels.

    This article is quite interesting with regards to what should be a level playing field: https://interactives.stuff.co.nz/201...playing-field/
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phillbo View Post
    If born a male you will have natural advantages if competing against most females. This is simply not a fair competition....

    But then, he cheated and did not take first ... things that make you go hmmmmm.
    That is not necessarily true. Girls have almost the same amount of muscle as boys until a certain point, when boys muscle and bone mass takes off.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcd46 View Post
    It's BS! I posted a similar situation in the weird and whacky news thread, track/field related.

    Like you, I don't care what people do, but for competition, it's not fair to women, period.

    I wish the dude luck.
    You also, either intentionally or out of ignorance, portrayed that person a having had gender reassignment surgery and/or cheating.

    Which you were called out on, and apparently forgot.


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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    That is not necessarily true. Girls have almost the same amount of muscle as boys until a certain point, when boys muscle and bone mass takes off.
    Yeah, we'll take care of that by transitioning 5 year olds!
    Just let everyone compete, regardless of any restriction, in all sports so that there are no women specific sports programs. See what that does to participation by females.
    Allowing men to compete in women's sports - even if they think they are female unicorns - is nonsense.

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    Maybe I'm a luddite, but it's pretty simple to me.

    External plumbing, man. Compete in men's categories.

    Internal plumbing, woman. Compete in women's categories (even with a potential residual advantage).

    If you are, make the commitment.

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    There are some legit concerns and it'll be interesting to see how the sport handles it.

    Beings trans in our society must be really hard. It's difficult to see anything but bigotry in the suggestion that someone would take on those hardships for something as petty as competitive advantage.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSU Alum View Post
    Yeah, we'll take care of that by transitioning 5 year olds!
    Just let everyone compete, regardless of any restriction, in all sports so that there are no women specific sports programs. See what that does to participation by females.
    Allowing men to compete in women's sports - even if they think they are female unicorns - is nonsense.
    Look, I am correcting a fact not making a judgement on anything, just correcting an incorrect statement. Physically, boys and girl are pretty similar early on (actually girls have more muscle). That is why, many children that are born male - but have medical issues - are converted and live their lives as female. This happens with circumcisions gone wrong- rare but does happen. Or with boys born with abnormal penis development, etc.

    So being born male does not give you an advantage. Going through puberty does and that advantage is huge in terms of muscle development.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    You also, either intentionally or out of ignorance, portrayed that person a having had gender reassignment surgery and/or cheating.

    Which you were called out on, and apparently forgot.


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    Ok point taken, I can admit my error, and didn't realize Squeaky had quoted me.

    My comments for this thread I won't go back on.

    I think people misunderstand this as being against sexual/gender preference, which is not. It is about competing at the same level. That's all I'm referring to.

    I'm a pretty open minded person, but in essence, I see this as cheating.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcd46 View Post
    Ok point taken, I can admit my error, and didn't realize Squeaky had quoted me.

    My comments for this thread I won't go back on.

    I think people misunderstand this as being against sexual/gender preference, which is not. It is about competing at the same level. That's all I'm referring to.

    I'm a pretty open minded person, but in essence, I see this as cheating.
    This is not cheating. That would imply this person is intentionally using this to get an upper hand on the competition, which I highly doubt. Is it not fair? Probably.
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  16. #16
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    It's cheating.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Transgender rider 3rd in women's DH race at Leogang-pvu1bxv38q131.jpg  

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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    Look, I am correcting a fact not making a judgement on anything, just correcting an incorrect statement. Physically, boys and girl are pretty similar early on (actually girls have more muscle). That is why, many children that are born male - but have medical issues - are converted and live their lives as female. This happens with circumcisions gone wrong- rare but does happen. Or with boys born with abnormal penis development, etc.

    So being born male does not give you an advantage. Going through puberty does and that advantage is huge in terms of muscle development.
    That doesn't seem to be the case.

    "This was a cross-sectional study involving 312 children (10.8 Ī 0.4 years). The physical fitness assessment employed sets of aerobic fitness, strength, flexibility, speed, agility, and balance. The boys presented higher values in all selected tests, except tests of balance and flexibility, in which girls scored better. Gender differences in the physical fitness were greatest in the explosive strength "

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/22561975/

    "Even during prepuberty, girls exhibited a
    significantly higher amount of body fat and a significantly lower amount of lean body mass than their male counterparts."

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...2P0TUJ15oEvoDt

  18. #18
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    Any Man that changes to a Woman, and then enters any sport which takes grit and muscle to win is a Wanker. Things like shooting, not so much.

  19. #19
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    From the basis of this thread: Transgender folks should be disallowed to participate in sporting events?

    How does a promoter advertise that "you" are not eligible to participate without being sued for something?

  20. #20
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    If it's overt and allowed, it's not cheating.

    Sanctioning organizations establish rules and categories to try to maximize opportunities to compete against similarly capable competitors. It seems they need to figure out what do about transgenders, but what?

    Most all cheaters don't win. Only the best.
    Do the math.

  21. #21
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    TBH i don't have a lot of sympathy for MTF trans athletes. It sucks they have to choose between the body/identity they want and their athletic career, but life doesn't promise anyone anything. Life is unfair but now they can choose; that's pretty good!


    I'm totally down with letting FTM compete with the dudes, even if they took PEDs to transition.



    The 'mens' and 'womens' category names carry a lot of baggage unfortunately.
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Train Wreck View Post
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    I'm gonna go with this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forest Rider View Post
    From the basis of this thread: Transgender folks should be disallowed to participate in sporting events?

    How does a promoter advertise that "you" are not eligible to participate without being sued for something?
    There's a class for everyone. The governing bodies need to step up and make a class for those whom aren't comfortable in their skin. And BTW, the open class is taken.

    This kind of reminds me of that movie "Billy Madison" where Adam Sandler puts the hurt on elementary school kids playing dodge ball as an adult beating up on children.

    Plain and simple, to those of us who work hard, train and compete, this is simple sandbagging. It happens and we all think and know, you're nothing but dog shit.
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    So, curious to hear thoughts on this one? I certainly think it's absolute BS, totally unfair to the real women who work and train so hard to win, only to have a position taken away by a man, who most likely couldn't hack it against other men and so decided to give this "work-around" a go I'm not really against people do whatever they want, but you CANNOT change your gender properties, no matter what hormone treatment you undergo.
    I watched the Leogang race, and checked the results on Pinkbike; I didnít see a man listed in the womenís catergory.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by griz View Post
    I watched the Leogang race, and checked the results on Pinkbike; I didnít see a man listed in the womenís catergory.
    I doubt he was listed as Dave or Mike, or whatever Millens call their sons these days. (Aiden with the letter of choice in front, Jaxson, or a dog's name like Hunter or Tanner).
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  26. #26
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    ^^^So, you didnít see ďhimĒ listed either???

  27. #27
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    Hi fc...

  28. #28
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  29. #29
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    Well, this thread has not gone crazy like the comments section on PB, people have stayed with civil discourse, which I think is great and why I started the thread. I stayed away so I could see where it goes and think about it more, because quite honestly, I was in utter shock that this is something real, that is happening, not fictional stuff of the future. My thoughts on this are below.....

    This modern generation basically seems to want to have their cake and eat it along with all the ice cream and toppings they want and that isn't how it sposed to work - just because I would like a Porsche, doesn't mean that I can just walk into a dealer and demand one despite not having the funds to pay for it, you need to work until you have the means to purchase one.

    As to if a man raced in the womens field? Well, it certainly wasn't a woman standing next to Tracey Hannah on the podium, that's for damn sure. You can "identify" all you want with something else, but genetics does not change, born a male, always a male. Yes men and women ARE DIFFERENT, that has nothing to do with being treated with equal rights or respect, that is something else entirely and something people get confused. I f this was not the case, then Tracey Hannah, the winner of womens field, would not, if put into the mens category have placed 54th with her winning time, she would have been up there with the top men.

    I honestly think it is SO very unfair to all those girls and women who have dedicated their lives to working and training so hard to get to where they are, to then have some "confused" man come into their field and take away podium spots/top finishes, or any finish place for that matter. If that person really and honestly thought they are a woman, then they would do everything in their power to follow that path in earnest, not worry about their racing.
    I think that if this was ever to honestly be allowed and accepted, any athlete who wanted to do it would be required to do treatment for at least 5 years, while discontinuing training to properly let their body transition to be more like a womans and then start to train from that starting point, not just take estrogen for a couple years, while continuing to work and train, maintaining their male muscular attributes. Even then I still think it is unfair and if anything a class should be made for those who are not happy with their gender and want to do something like this.

    If you honestly think that all the female riders are cool with this, I highly suggest you take a look at the podium shot below, that should settle those thoughts.

    Transgender rider 3rd in women's DH race at Leogang-tracey-wins.jpg
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    I am fine with people doing whatever they want with their bodies. If they aren't comfortable with being a man fine change or vice versa. That's ok with me.

    However, I don't think they should be allowed to compete in a professional sport. Of course that is up to the organizing body to decide but I don't think it is fair to many other competitors that anyone is allowed to switch to another gender classification within a sport. I mean it sucks that they wouldn't be able to pursue being a professional athlete but lots of other people aren't able to be a professional athlete for one reason or another.
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    The integrity of the sport is taking a big hit this year.

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    It seems all sports will have to find a way to respect people's choices in their personal lives, while also fostering a sense of equity in competition... There are a lot of options for how to do this and I really don't know which I support.

    What I do think is clear is that simply calling anyone who points out the issues with the current state of things 'intolerant' isn't going to cut it. Every post in here (unless I missed one) seems to respect the athlete and want nothing but the best for them, but that's not mutually exclusive from also considering them to have an unfair advantage.

  33. #33
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    I feel like these events will turn into some kind of costume party attended by low-level competitors looking for an advantage, diluting the current women's elite field; which makes it an uphill battle for legit athletes who are transgender, and unfair to the elite women.
    So far I have seen nothing to convince me that there is any kind of level playing field for men who are transitioning into women. I think they should still be competing with the men until there is a separate category. The world doesn't have to change rotation for these people to compete fairly.
    It seems even women had to compete with men for awhile until they were recognized as their own group (that seems really silly to read that back, but it happened in a lot of sports)

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    It's not a level playing field. If I were a pro athlete and had to compete against transitioned women, I'd be quite disheartened.

    Or intersex women who have the build, stamina, and strength of a man.
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    A solution is pretty simple, defer to the birth certificate.

    How someone identifies later in life should have no bearing in competitive endeavors.

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    Sigh. The idea that someone would go through gender reassignment (and everything that includes) just to win a couple of races in an extremely niche sport is downright ridiculous, absurd, and laughable. It's societal issues like these that expose the fragility of people's ego, self-esteem, and mental health--can't hide your weakness no matter how hard you try.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDwayyo View Post
    What I do think is clear is that simply calling anyone who points out the issues with the current state of things 'intolerant' isn't going to cut it.
    All too often those championing "tolerance" are only tolerant of those with their shared views. Being able to accept people's right to have a differing opinion seems a bit more tolerant. Sadly the ability to have an intellectual debate gets shut down with name calling.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by matadorCE View Post
    Sigh. The idea that someone would go through gender reassignment (and everything that includes) just to win a couple of races in an extremely niche sport is downright ridiculous, absurd, and laughable. It's societal issues like these that expose the fragility of people's ego, self-esteem, and mental health--can't hide your weakness no matter how hard you try.
    I don't think the question of sincerity is important.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCheesehead View Post
    All too often those championing "tolerance" are only tolerant of those with their shared views. Being able to accept people's right to have a differing opinion seems a bit more tolerant.
    Conversely, those who hold that opinion often speak in absolutes like 'it's immoral' or 'it's unnatural' and then claim that it's intolerant not to accept their opinion...

    Tolerance (I'd prefer acceptance but for many we will have to settle for tolerance) isn't just about allowing someone to live their life - it's about accepting that it's their life to live and how you see it is irrelevant.

    That said, with competition it's a much simpler issue; where can we draw some measurable lines in the sand to try to keep the concept of 'fair' that we've been using for centuries in place?

    I would be fine with three categories; male, female and non-verified. Male and female require birth certificates, NV does not. NV may garner less sponsors and public attention and I feel that's unfortunate... But I don't see it as any great injustice.

    If you want to pursue absolute best-in-the-world status in your sport then you may need to put off that gender realignment surgery until after. There are plenty of personal decisions athletes must make that can hurt their ability to achieve the highest levels in their sport, I see no reason why this can't be one of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy3220 View Post
    I don't think the question of sincerity is important.
    It shouldn't be, but it comes up often. The idea that a man is going to become a woman physically so that they can win at a sport for a few years is just not reasonable to me.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDwayyo View Post
    That said, with competition it's a much simpler issue; where can we draw some measurable lines in the sand to try to keep the concept of 'fair' that we've been using for centuries in place?
    This is the only topic at hand. Just fair competition.
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    Let feminists have a taste of their own medicine.

    Men can enroll in women race. Woohoo

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    "who most likely couldn't hack it against other men and so decided to give this "work-around" a go"

    I really, really, really doubt that was his motivation.

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    Christ, there's some weapons grade bell ends on this thread. Some of the comments here are criminally abusive.

    Some of you need to have a long hard look at yourselves.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by 93EXCivic View Post
    .... I mean it sucks that they wouldn't be able to pursue being a professional athlete but lots of other people aren't able to be a professional athlete for one reason or another.
    This. This is what a lot of people just simply choose to ignore. Just because you want to do something, doesn't mean you're entitled to it. I've read more about this in the past few days than I have in the past few years (like a lot of others I suspect). When I read a couple articles about that track cyclist, Rachel McKinnon, and her counter-attacks on those who claimed her victory was "unfair," it made my blood boil. She basically accused anyone who said she had an unfair advantage of being a bigot. Give me a break, Snowflake. Just because someone says something is unfair, does NOT make them a bigot. It just means they have a problem with an unfair competitive advantage that makes it harder (and in some cases impossible) for those in a given class of athletics to compete with.

  45. #45
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    I'm all for people being happy and comfortable. I'm all for sports and fair competition. If the definition of "man" and "woman" is no longer considered a fair assessment in order to categorize placement in sports competition, then I suggest categorization be based upon testosterone and estrogen. If one has the ability to produce testosterone, one competes in the "Outtie" categories. Produce estrogen, you compete in the "Innies" categories.
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    In the meantime, I'm enjoying the Women's World cup.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcd46 View Post
    This is the only topic at hand. Just fair competition.
    It should be, but it's extremely difficult to remove the philosophical aspects of this issue from any discussion. Even the concept of 'fair competition' is a bit nebulous; really the only fair competition is if all people compete in one giant category, anything less is arbitrary in some way.

    A big part of this is people who can't remember reading anything even loosely 'scientific' since seventh grade science class but love to shout 'it's simple science!' If they were actually even decently well read in science they'd know that gender is a human construct and the idea that it is binary is not supported by science for a number of reasons. Physically gender can be ambiguous, psychologically it is always ambiguous. Nature didn't decide what it means to be a male/female in our society, we did.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDwayyo View Post
    Conversely, those who hold that opinion often speak in absolutes like 'it's immoral' or 'it's unnatural' and then claim that it's intolerant not to accept their opinion...
    Not accepting one's opinion is not intolerant, not accepting one's right to have that opinion is intolerant. Strict Baptists may find my consumption of alcohol and dancing immoral. While I do not subscribe to that view, they have a right to that opinion. Back to the subject at hand.

    I would be fine with three categories; male, female and non-verified. Male and female require birth certificates, NV does not. NV may garner less sponsors and public attention and I feel that's unfortunate... But I don't see it as any great injustice.
    While good in concept, it would be logistically impractical. The number of NV participates would likely be very small. It may work well in something like a marathon where it is just a mass group participating, but for bike racing (particularly road racing) where the whole races are separated by gender and ability categories it would be difficult to have a large enough field to have a competition. In events with a team component like Old Pueblo it would be easy enough to change "co-ed" to mixed gender and just require each team to have one verified male and one verified female.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDwayyo View Post
    It should be, but it's extremely difficult to remove the philosophical aspects of this issue from any discussion. Even the concept of 'fair competition' is a bit nebulous; really the only fair competition is if all people compete in one giant category, anything less is arbitrary in some way.

    A big part of this is people who can't remember reading anything even loosely 'scientific' since seventh grade science class but love to shout 'it's simple science!' If they were actually even decently well read in science they'd know that gender is a human construct and the idea that it is binary is not supported by science for a number of reasons. Physically gender can be ambiguous, psychologically it is always ambiguous. Nature didn't decide what it means to be a male/female in our society, we did.
    Quoted to repeat my opinion.

    I'll also place this year. A woman, actual woman, who is being told she is not woman enough and has to change her body:

    https://www.apnews.com/543c78d943144874a661f31e88c1f8e6

    I think we have a serious issue in sports and competitions. I don't have the answers, and I doubt few if any others out there do.

    https://www.cbc.ca/sports/olympics/t...dict-1.5160106

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDwayyo View Post
    It should be, but it's extremely difficult to remove the philosophical aspects of this issue from any discussion. Even the concept of 'fair competition' is a bit nebulous; really the only fair competition is if all people compete in one giant category, anything less is arbitrary in some way.

    A big part of this is people who can't remember reading anything even loosely 'scientific' since seventh grade science class but love to shout 'it's simple science!' If they were actually even decently well read in science they'd know that gender is a human construct and the idea that it is binary is not supported by science for a number of reasons. Physically gender can be ambiguous, psychologically it is always ambiguous. Nature didn't decide what it means to be a male/female in our society, we did.
    For simplicity and "fairness" just go with the chromosomal definition. That will cover the vast majority of people.

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    This is a difficult topic to discuss. Thumbs up to all contributors who have managed to so far keep this on track.

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    I wonder what it would feel like to bust butt on a fantastic race and come in 2nd place overall in the mens category.
    First place was a trangender man who used to be a woman.

    Would we walk away in shame saying "I lost the best race of my life to a woman?"

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    I'd be really interested to hear from some of the Pro Women on the matter. I can't imagine too many would publically address the situation but I'm sure Raphaela Richter isn't too stoked to have missed her spot on the podium because of it.

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    No shame in losing to a woman....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boulder Pilot View Post
    I'm all for people being happy and comfortable. I'm all for sports and fair competition. If the definition of "man" and "woman" is no longer considered a fair assessment in order to categorize placement in sports competition, then I suggest categorization be based upon testosterone and estrogen. If one has the ability to produce testosterone, one competes in the "Outtie" categories. Produce estrogen, you compete in the "Innies" categories.
    That doesn't work at all.
    A biological male even with lower testosterone on average will still be a much superior athlete to a bio female. There is much more than just current hormone levels that determine this. For definitive proof notice that there is not a single trans male dominating male sports but there are many trans females dominating female sports.
    If hormones alone were enough to determine your relative sex and the matching genetic athleticism, then when an athlete changed sexes they would maintain the approximate same place in the pack as they were as their former sex. But this is not what happens. Trans males fall down in the pack and trans females go way up in the pack.
    I have full respect for those trying to find their happy place/ sex, but this has become absurd.

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    Last edited by Suns_PSD; 2 Weeks Ago at 05:12 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Train Wreck View Post
    I'd be really interested to hear from some of the Pro Women on the matter. I can't imagine too many would publically address the situation but I'm sure Raphaela Richter isn't too stoked to have missed her spot on the podium because of it.
    Yeah, considering Rachel Atherton threw a hissy fit when Tracy Mosely wore a skin suit and beat her because of an "unfair aerodynamic advantage". Surprised we haven't heard anything from the elite women's field yet. Probably because they don't want to be labeled as bigoted or "insensitive" just for pointing out there is an unfair biological advantage.
    Last edited by jbadger1977; 2 Weeks Ago at 01:08 PM. Reason: spelling

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    An interesting article about the athlete in question.

    https://interactives.stuff.co.nz/201...playing-field/

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    Pretty clearly the answer is to ban racing

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    A lot of the replies here rely on the idea of gender being entirely binary, which it isn't. (How common is intersex? | Intersex Society of North America) There are all sorts of anamolies that can occur which result in differences. For instance there are people with XY chromosomes who are born presenting female (google Swyer syndrome). These individuals have female reproductive organs, and male chromosomes and cannot reproduce.

    With top levels of sport existing at the margins, there is a serious question of where are these individuals supposed to compete? How many of them even know about their condition? Are we going to require genetic testing in order to assign male/female categories?

    These are hard questions which I frankly don't have the answer to. I believe the IOC and UCI have looked at all this data and kinda said they will attack on a case by case basis and then use testosterone levels to differentiate levels. That is problematic as well, as others have said muscle that develops doesn't totally go away but also there are ranges of normal. Many women in the highest ranks of sport have testosterone levels above normal, for instance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jbadger1977 View Post
    Yeah, considering Rachel Atherton threw a hissy fit when Tracy Mosely wore a skin suit and beat her because of an "unfair aerodynamic advantage". Surprised we haven't heard anything from the elite women's field yet. Probably because they don't want to be labeled as bigoted or "insensitive" just for pointing out there is an unfair biological advantage.
    This is a total aside: I understand from a style standpoint but from a speed one.... why don't they do something to optimize aerodynamics? Events are decided by less than a second it would probably help. I'd say it's almost nonsensical not to do it.

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    What is highly unfair is banning women (born with male genitals) from sporting events from having naturally elevated testosterone. In my mind, you can't have it both ways - unless you define a women as anyone with low T. If so, Rachel, bring it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy3220 View Post
    I don't think the question of sincerity is important.
    LOL it's crucial, because people are talking like the ONLY reason this person changed genders was because they couldn't hack in in the sport in their gender of birth-- which is absolutely absurd btw. People are just people--this 'otherism' is one of the true signs of personal weakness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by matadorCE View Post
    LOL it's crucial, because people are talking like the ONLY reason this person changed genders was because they couldn't hack in in the sport in their gender of birth-- which is absolutely absurd btw. People are just people--this 'otherism' is one of the true signs of personal weakness.
    The UCI can't test for sincerity. The real question is whether competition remains fair.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vader View Post
    I doubt he was listed as Dave or Mike, or whatever Millens call their sons these days. (Aiden with the letter of choice in front, Jaxson, or a dog's name like Hunter or Tanner).
    OK, I laughed out loud at your post. My kids have played little league for years, and every one of my kid's team rosters had at least one Aiden variant, and usually several.

    Aiden
    Brayden
    Caden
    Drayden
    Graden
    Hayden
    Jaden
    Kaden
    Payden

    I'm sure I'm missing a few. And there have a been a sprinkling of Hunters, Tanners, and Jaxons mixed in.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    So, curious to hear thoughts on this one? I certainly think it's absolute BS, totally unfair to the real women who work and train so hard to win, only to have a position taken away by a man, who most likely couldn't hack it against other men and so decided to give this "work-around" a go I'm not really against people do whatever they want, but you CANNOT change your gender properties, no matter what hormone treatment you undergo.
    I am still amazed everyday by the ignorant and bigoted things I hear and read in this county.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post
    I am still amazed everyday by the ignorant and bigoted things I hear and read in this county.
    I agree that this is an absurd suggestion, that people would under go sex reassignment for moderate athletic accolades.

    It's certainly no more absurd than having bio-males compete with females and calling it fair however. That's biological insanity.

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    How in the 21st Century is there still any gender discrimination in sports? I think we evolved past this point decades ago. Women are the equal of men, and thousands of women have suffered and died to prove their equality. Why should they be forced to race as second class citizens in their own segregated category, and then make only 2/3 what a man makes? This is bigotry at its worst. #Iamwithher #believewomen

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    Quote Originally Posted by Schulze View Post
    How in the 21st Century is there still any gender discrimination in sports? I think we evolved past this point decades ago. Women are the equal of men, and thousands of women have suffered and died to prove their equality. Why should they be forced to race as second class citizens in their own segregated category, and then make only 2/3 what a man makes? This is bigotry at its worst. #Iamwithher #believewomen
    You are joking, but this is exactly the line of thinking that made possible this situation. We live in a world where we can't take a stance against a minority for the well being of the majority.

    I admit being the minority and being treated as such is an awful thing, but being the majority and bending the world for them to have a fair life is wrong in my opinion. Now, you are twisting the normal world for the benefit of a few, instead of focusing on the majority. Life is not fair to anyone, we already know that, we must accept tough decisions even if if hurts a minority for the sake of everyone else.

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    Call me neanderthal. You can't change your DNA. At least not yet. And certainly not by declaration, surgery, or hormone treatments. If your chromosomes are XY, you're a male, end of story...so you race Men's. If your chromosomes are XX, you're a woman, end of story, so you race Women's.
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    Looks to me like he/she still got beat by 4 other women in Fort William and 2 other women in Leogang so...

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    What annoys me about this discussion is there's always people arguing that because intersex people exist, then gender isn't binary and male and female categories therefore aren't normal.

    Intersex people are a genetic abnormality, by definition not normal. That arguement is terrible in defence of someone genetically normal who wishes to change categories.

    The very very rare cases of intersex people can and have been assessed on a case by case basis to determine any advantage.

    In the case of people choosing to change categories then that shouldn't be allowed, period. If someone is taking hormones that gives them an advantage then that also shouldn't be allowed, period.

    Personal struggles are unfortunate but others should not have to make accommodations for them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy3220 View Post
    The UCI can't test for sincerity. The real question is whether competition remains fair.
    Again, people think that this person ONLY changed sexes because they wanted to compete and win races. The UCI has proven to be completely inept at deciding what's 'fair'. If you really wanted fair, you wouldn't have paid pros competing against self-financed privateers.

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post
    I am still amazed everyday by the ignorant and bigoted things I hear and read in this county.
    Dude wait until you leave SF county...
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    Quote Originally Posted by matadorCE View Post
    Again, people think that this person ONLY changed sexes because they wanted to compete and win races.
    I'm not arguing with that.

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    Maybe there should be third class for them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Train Wreck View Post
    I'd be really interested to hear from some of the Pro Women on the matter.
    Or any women. Pretty sure I didn't see a single female post in this thread. Lots of guys have an opinion on woman's racing and what their rules should be tho.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mopartodd View Post
    Maybe there should be third class for them.
    He class

    She class

    They class
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    Performance enhancing drugs/supplements are banned but somehow its acceptable to take supplements to decrease performance. Is that healthy?

    I don't understand why its acceptable to alter your physical ability to race down a class. Tell me that's not what is going on.

    If I smoke a pack of cigarettes before the race can I race up in age? I just took 10 years off my life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GRPABT1 View Post
    What annoys me about this discussion is there's always people arguing that because intersex people exist, then gender isn't binary and male and female categories therefore aren't normal.

    Intersex people are a genetic abnormality, by definition not normal. That arguement is terrible in defence of someone genetically normal who wishes to change categories.

    The very very rare cases of intersex people can and have been assessed on a case by case basis to determine any advantage.

    In the case of people choosing to change categories then that shouldn't be allowed, period. If someone is taking hormones that gives them an advantage then that also shouldn't be allowed, period.

    Personal struggles are unfortunate but others should not have to make accommodations for them.
    The point is that gender isn't binary. Not physically, not psychologically. It might be 99.9% of the time, but that's not what binary means. This has a small practical effect, sure, however it should be enlightening information for those who think gender is binary and try to force everyone into one of two categories. (I'm speaking more of lifestyle here than competition, as I noted previously competitive 'fairness' is a totally different question.)

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by mopartodd View Post
    Maybe there should be third class for them.

    I have to recognize my own limitations on these matters. Iím not a sport scientist, nor a person charged with devising rules and regulations and, finally, not a trans or woman athlete or their representative. To be blunt - like most here - I donít have the expertise or a direct, vested interest in the situation to be relevant.

    With that qualifier, as a lay person, I see the situation as complicated, fluid and very difficult.

    Fluid in terms of: How does society parse the importance of: Dignity. Inclusion. Fairness.

    Ultimately, the current society gets to choose how to weigh these and any shift is uncomfortable for some.

    Complicated in terms of:

    Dignity - can you (should you) devise rules that define Ďfemaleí? Force women to prove they are ďwoman enoughĒ (add in the rules probably devised by men)? At itís core, something feels amiss with the concept.

    Inclusion - can the same rules allow for inclusion of edge-case and exceptional people? Trans people, women with high testosterone, people who have more pronounced non-binary genetic makeup?

    Fairness - can these same rules provide protections for athletes so that their respective class has some meaning? Does not give an unfair advantage or rob the category of meaning?

    The difficulty of the above is plenty - but stack on a lot of prejudice, optics and basic human nature to gravitate to the simplest Ďcategorizationí and stereotype that works most the time. Itís a lot to balance.

    I do think there is something approaching chutzpah that the mens field is basically biologically open (sans pharma) and the womenís field is governed by rules that force you to decide what constitutes being female complete with arbitrary delineations - that may exclude competitors, who as some posters put it, ďborn femaleĒ or consider themselves female.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Train Wreck View Post
    I'd be really interested to hear from some of the Pro Women on the matter. I can't imagine too many would publically address the situation but I'm sure Raphaela Richter isn't too stoked to have missed her spot on the podium because of it.
    A proxy for that outside of cycling might be Martina Navritilova, one of the winningest female tennis players in history. She's been quite vocal on the subject, even on air during her commentary, saying how unfair it is to allow such practices in her sport, and implying in any sport. I don't have any great links, unfortunately.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schulze View Post
    How in the 21st Century is there still any gender discrimination in sports? I think we evolved past this point decades ago. Women are the equal of men, and thousands of women have suffered and died to prove their equality. Why should they be forced to race as second class citizens in their own segregated category, and then make only 2/3 what a man makes? This is bigotry at its worst. #Iamwithher #believewomen
    I'll leave your obnoxious post alone because it speaks for itself, however your choice of hashtags is offensive. The political one is just unnecessary, but damn you really thought it cute to throw a hashtag referring to sexual abuse on here? You sir are an ass.

  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post
    I am still amazed everyday by the ignorant and bigoted things I hear and read in this county.
    Like any news out of Alabama This is crazy.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...=.7de3d0f90aae

  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattMay View Post
    Call me neanderthal. You can't change your DNA. At least not yet. And certainly not by declaration, surgery, or hormone treatments. If your chromosomes are XY, you're a male, end of story...so you race Men's. If your chromosomes are XX, you're a woman, end of story, so you race Women's.
    Until a better understanding is found, I think this is the standard we need to fall back on. That said, I'm curious what the rules might be like in another 30 years when they're a full generation removed from us.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MOJO K View Post
    ...I'm curious what the rules might be like in another 30 years when they're a full generation removed from us.
    One potential is simply banning competition cause it requires a winner and thus a loser. It's very psychologically damaging.

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    Arbitrary delineation? XX Chromosome, or just no Y chromosomes doesn't feel that arbitrary to me.
    As far as women's opinion, I can only relay my wife's frustration at bio men competing with bio women. My wife is liberal, particularly when it comes to the LBGT community but stated recently something like 'great, men keep us down for centuries and we get a few arenas that are just ours, and men show up and take that from us as well."

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    Once again, too much emphasis is placed on hormone levels. I was a male with very low T for years and still an above average male athlete.

    Armstrong stated something to the effect of 'the T didn't really do much, it was the XXX that made all of the difference".

    If a bio female has unusually high T levels that occur naturally, that is just genetic variance that is perfectly acceptable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    Arbitrary delineation? XX Chromosome, or just no Y chromosomes doesn't feel that arbitrary to me.k
    To you. Most salient aspect: that's not the current rule.

    2ndary: If biology was that simple, I think we'd be sorted. There are variations in XY, XXY, etc in people who live their whole lives as female, never the wiser nor does it matter. Depending on how a test is conducted, you may find variations or even completely male genetic code in a female. Intersex https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex and even testing is complicated business.

    ^maybe that's where we'll find ourselves. 80% covered and call it good - outliers cast off. But, as the song goes, these times they are a-changin. The new crop has different value system so the turbulence of old guard, new kids on the block is to be expected.

    I respect your wife's view; I can't disagree that the women's field are bearing the full the weight of the situation. From "prove you are woman enough" to "you must be inclusive".
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    Quote Originally Posted by Train Wreck View Post
    An interesting article about the athlete in question.

    https://interactives.stuff.co.nz/201...playing-field/
    Went from mid-pack male to winning the women's class by 30 seconds. I think that clearly eliminates the notion that hormone treatments revert someone to the athletic performance of a female version of themselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCheesehead View Post
    One potential is simply banning competition cause it requires a winner and thus a loser. It's very psychologically damaging.
    I love that so many (old fogeys) harp on this as if it will be the end of our society. In case you haven't noticed, competition is up in nearly every sport and things that didn't used to be competitive sports now are. Funny how the new generation is simultaneously 'banning competition' and shattering all of your generation's records.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MattMay View Post
    A proxy for that outside of cycling might be Martina Navritilova, one of the winningest female tennis players in history. She's been quite vocal on the subject, even on air during her commentary, saying how unfair it is to allow such practices in her sport, and implying in any sport. I don't have any great links, unfortunately.
    Here is a good article that talks about Martina Navritilova and how she called Rachel McKinnon's (male-to-female trans track cyclist) biological advantage "unfair" and then got lit up for it. Rachel McKinnon is a cry-baby snowflake and needs to understand the difference between being a bigot and simply calling out an unfair competitive advantage.

    https://quillette.com/2019/02/27/con...ale-athletics/

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    Lot of cavemen in this thread, I bet you still ride bikes with square wheels made out of stone.

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    Transgender-noting or relating to a person whose gender identity does not correspond to that persons biological sex assigned at birth.

    I don't understand the leniency in athletics. We're bending the rules to ensure everyone gets their participation award.

    And now I'll be accused of bigotry

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    Quote Originally Posted by Forest Rider View Post
    I wonder what it would feel like to bust butt on a fantastic race and come in 2nd place overall in the mens category.
    First place was a trangender man who used to be a woman.

    Would we walk away in shame saying "I lost the best race of my life to a woman?"
    You mean someone overcoming a huge disadvantage to see great success? I believe this is called an underdog which is quite admirable... but entirely a different scenario.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Train Wreck View Post
    Transgender-noting or relating to a person whose gender identity does not correspond to that persons biological sex assigned at birth.

    I don't understand the leniency in athletics. We're bending the rules to ensure everyone gets their participation award.

    And now I'll be accused of bigotry
    Sadly yes, although no one has mentioned anything against gender/sexual preference.

    Fair game is all that applies here, again!
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    Quote Originally Posted by matadorCE View Post
    Lot of cavemen in this thread, I bet you still ride bikes with square wheels made out of stone.
    TBH i think this is the shittiest attitude in this thread.

    While 'gay' has existed throughout known history, trans-and-it-matters is something humans has never had to face before. I haven't seen anything hateful here. Just people trying to recontextualize their understanding of gender, sexuality, and fairness. Don't use shame to steer the narrative. Let's talk like adults.
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    If anyone posts up hateful speech it will be moderated in an appropriate manner.

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    Quote Originally Posted by matadorCE View Post
    Lot of cavemen in this thread, I bet you still ride bikes with square wheels made out of stone.
    This is the kind of lowest hanging fruit BS response that is killing this country in many areas. We all know you're super woke and non-offensive bro....even if it means denying reality.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Mega View Post
    To you. Most salient aspect: that's not the current rule.

    2ndary: If biology was that simple, I think we'd be sorted. There are variations in XY, XXY, etc in people who live their whole lives as female, never the wiser nor does it matter. Depending on how a test is conducted, you may find variations or even completely male genetic code in a female. Intersex https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex and even testing is complicated business.

    ^maybe that's where we'll find ourselves. 80% covered and call it good - outliers cast off. But, as the song goes, these times they are a-changin. The new crop has different value system so the turbulence of old guard, new kids on the block is to be expected.

    I respect your wife's view; I can't disagree that the women's field are bearing the full the weight of the situation. From "prove you are woman enough" to "you must be inclusive".
    Harping on incredibly rare medical cases to try to make a point about trans genders is a false equivalency. There are just as many people born missing a limb as there are born intersex yet there is no contesting that humans are bipedal creatures. No one is contesting that there is a "spectrum" to the amount of limbs we have. Trisomy diseases don't change our definition of peoples genetic makeup either. They are considered anomalies for a reason.

    As far as I'm concerned, you're born (over 99% of the time) either male or female. Your body develops as such. Males have higher VO2 max, stronger muscles, denser bones, faster reactions, etc. It has been shown that even reducing testosterone doesn't bring a male to a females level, as much as simply reduce his overall level. My wife (an MD) finds this whole thing absurd. Of course, she has to deal with the other side of this. Trans men coming into the hospital, presenting as men, records indicating male, yet suffering from a distinctly female medical issue, all the while being told by the hospital that they have to just accept people as they present themselves, . . .
    Not everyone gets to compete professionally. We don't handicap professional sports, but we do separate by sex (and sometimes weight) because the differences are so vast. Allowing trans women to compete is essentially a handicap provided to the trans athlete; and a massive one at that. Maybe the UCI should take a page out of the US military's book and simply tell trans athletes they can be trans, but must compete as their birth sex. Then we wouldn't even have to worry about all the hormone tests.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbadger1977 View Post
    Here is a good article that talks about Martina Navritilova and how she called Rachel McKinnon's (male-to-female trans track cyclist) biological advantage "unfair" and then got lit up for it. Rachel McKinnon is a cry-baby snowflake and needs to understand the difference between being a bigot and simply calling out an unfair competitive advantage.

    https://quillette.com/2019/02/27/con...ale-athletics/
    Worth the read. It also cites the studies that show that trans women maintain: larger hearts, larger lungs, something about their blood carrying more O2, denser bones, larger hands & feet, higher muscle fiber count even with atrophy, etc...even while on Hormone Therapy.

    For those that are, you know, incapable of using their eyes I guess.

    Honestly what is most disturbing is the abuse that is heaped on anyone that tries to discuss this. The quickest way to lose your athletic career it turns out, is to tell the truth on this topic. What bullies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by driver bob View Post
    If anyone posts up hateful speech it will be moderated in an appropriate manner.
    Thus far the only hate I've read has been aimed at "cave men" "old fogies" etc. Funny how hate speech is opinionated.

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    I'm fortunate to have several transgender friends, both MtF and FtM, all of whom I've know before and after their transitions.

    Changing gender is not something one does at the drop of a hat. Transitioning gender is a process that takes years and is done under the guidance of doctors and therapists. Gender identity is largely in born: that is, our minds have a sense of being a male or being female basically from birth. For the trans folk I know, they always knew they were really a female, or really male, despite being raised with the opposite gender identity.

    For all of them, not being able to express who they are was deeply traumatic. Transitioning genders was not so much "changing" gender as it was going back to the gender identity they'd felt since birth.

    Trans people have always been around. But there is so much social stigma against it that it took even longer for them to live openly than for the gay and lesbian community.

    One of my trans friends is a great cyclist. In fact, she helped fuel my own fire for mountain biking. After she began taking testosterone blockers, her muscle mass, strength, and endurance took a huge dive. That was disappointing to her, but worth it because, living as a woman, she no longer had to deal with the massive depression and anxiety that the felt all the time while living as a man.

    To anyone who has doubts or concerns about trans people, I'd encourage you to keep an open mind and to listen to their stories. My trans friends are some of the most courageous people I know. I honestly don't know if I'd have the courage to face the challenges that they've come through.

    This podcast recently did a nice review of the scientific literature related to trans issues. It's worth a listen: https://gimletmedia.com/shows/science-vs/j4hl23
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    Quote Originally Posted by scatterbrained View Post
    Harping on incredibly rare medical cases to try to make a point about trans genders is a false equivalency.
    The only point I'm making is that the situation is complicated - particularly if you try to be definitive in definition. Trans encompasses a lot - it also includes people who have medical conditions. Blanket statements, while convenient, tend to reveal a lack of understanding so generally I don't accept them without some challenges; Sometimes I prefer a more honest "I'm not comfortable with this" rather than cloaking that discomfort in incomplete "scientific" justification.

    A good dry read is here from the world health organization:

    https://www.who.int/genomics/gender/en/index1.html

    "Clearly, there are not only females who are XX and males who are XY, but rather, there is a range of chromosome complements, hormone balances, and phenotypic variations that determine sex."

    They list out some of the "anomalies" and how the "normal" process by which one's sex manifests itself is more nuanced than XY, XX.

    Even a glib take would reveal you have some decisions to make to sort this out:

    * genetic chromosome markers for XY,XX exclusively
    * manifestation of biological sex differentiation
    * gender identification

    So - do you pick one? Two? All 3 must align? More? How about a XX person who has the sexual traits of a male and testosterone to match - they'd pass the genetic tests some posters want?

    Broader biology topic here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex-determination_system

    I feel for everyone involved - I think it's one of those things where the more your try to build rules and codify it - the more elusive that "simple definition" becomes - esp if you try to be inclusive. Inconvenient.

    Rather than focus on Kate or any one specific athlete, I'd ask a broader question: "Does the current rule serve its athletes?" Hell if I know but it does seem like it could create unfair situations and have terrible optics. Not a well received opinion but I see rules as being applicable only for the society which created them - hence my fluid comment. Be it Trans athletes or how much you can rough up the quaterback - what was once acceptable may no longer be. Its sucks from stability, consistency perspectives and offends purists but every where I look I see change.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Mega View Post
    The only point I'm making is that the situation is complicated - particularly if you try to be definitive in definition. Trans encompasses a lot - it also includes people who have medical conditions. Blanket statements, while convenient, tend to reveal a lack of understanding so generally I don't accept them without some challenges; Sometimes I prefer a more honest "I'm not comfortable with this" rather than cloaking that discomfort in incomplete "scientific" justification.

    A good dry read is here from the world health organization:

    https://www.who.int/genomics/gender/en/index1.html

    "Clearly, there are not only females who are XX and males who are XY, but rather, there is a range of chromosome complements, hormone balances, and phenotypic variations that determine sex."

    They list out some of the "anomalies" and how the "normal" process by which one's sex manifests itself is more nuanced than XY, XX.

    Even a glib take would reveal you have some decisions to make to sort this out:

    * genetic chromosome markers for XY,XX exclusively
    * manifestation of biological sex differentiation
    * gender identification

    So - do you pick one? Two? All 3 must align? More? How about a XX person who has the sexual traits of a male and testosterone to match - they'd pass the genetic tests some posters want?

    Broader biology topic here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex-determination_system

    I feel for everyone involved - I think it's one of those things where the more your try to build rules and codify it - the more elusive that "simple definition" becomes - esp if you try to be inclusive. Inconvenient.

    Rather than focus on Kate or any one specific athlete, I'd ask a broader question: "Does the current rule serve its athletes?" Hell if I know but it does seem like it could create unfair situations and have terrible optics. Not a well received opinion but I see rules as being applicable only for the society which created them - hence my fluid comment. Be it Trans athletes or how much you can rough up the quaterback - what was once acceptable may no longer be. Its sucks from stability, consistency perspectives and offends purists but every where I look I see change.
    Oddly enough we are talking about none of these rare instances. We are talking about clearly identifiable XY men self identifying as XX females in a competitive environment, which they are not.
    So these complicated situations which you site, none of these apply to the situations at hand.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Mega View Post
    The only point I'm making is that the situation is complicated - particularly if you try to be definitive in definition. Trans encompasses a lot - it also includes people who have medical conditions. Blanket statements, while convenient, tend to reveal a lack of understanding so generally I don't accept them without some challenges; Sometimes I prefer a more honest "I'm not comfortable with this" rather than cloaking that discomfort in incomplete "scientific" justification.

    A good dry read is here from the world health organization:

    https://www.who.int/genomics/gender/en/index1.html

    "Clearly, there are not only females who are XX and males who are XY, but rather, there is a range of chromosome complements, hormone balances, and phenotypic variations that determine sex."

    They list out some of the "anomalies" and how the "normal" process by which one's sex manifests itself is more nuanced than XY, XX.

    Even a glib take would reveal you have some decisions to make to sort this out:

    * genetic chromosome markers for XY,XX exclusively
    * manifestation of biological sex differentiation
    * gender identification

    So - do you pick one? Two? All 3 must align? More? How about a XX person who has the sexual traits of a male and testosterone to match - they'd pass the genetic tests some posters want?

    Broader biology topic here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex-determination_system

    I feel for everyone involved - I think it's one of those things where the more your try to build rules and codify it - the more elusive that "simple definition" becomes - esp if you try to be inclusive. Inconvenient.

    Rather than focus on Kate or any one specific athlete, I'd ask a broader question: "Does the current rule serve its athletes?" Hell if I know but it does seem like it could create unfair situations and have terrible optics. Not a well received opinion but I see rules as being applicable only for the society which created them - hence my fluid comment. Be it Trans athletes or how much you can rough up the quaterback - what was once acceptable may no longer be. Its sucks from stability, consistency perspectives and offends purists but every where I look I see change.
    Again, those links are discussing anomalies. Very rare anomalies. When you're measuring an anomaly in "births per 2,000" or "births per 65,000", that is far from normal enough to even consider when trying to make a determination about sporting rules. This issue only seems complicated to some because certain people wish it to be so. This is a fallback for people defending trans woman athletes, but again, it doesn't really apply. It's a means to obfuscate an issue (gender dysphoria). If your body goes through puberty as a male (as Kate's did) you have a distinct physical advantage over female participants. That doesn't mean you will be crushing the field, but the amount of stories out right now of trans female athletes winning consistently and setting records should make the issue pretty clear, especially when there is clear evidence of them being competitive as a male athlete before their transition. You can be compassionate and empathetic towards people without giving in to their every demand. Who are you going to be more sympathetic to, the high school athlete who trains her heart out, only to consistently finish third behind two trans girls, or the two trans girls, who are taking opportunities from biological woman?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    Oddly enough we are talking about none of these rare instances. We are talking about clearly identifiable XY men self identifying as XX females in a competitive environment,
    The rule changes for IOC included trans and hyperandrogenism. These topics are intertwined - to first know if you fall into trans, you have to define female. The policy is partially motivated as a catch-all to deal with sex-testing issues.

    re: your XY theory:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_ve...tion_in_sports

    "This tested for the Y-chromosome, and was designed to identify males potentially disguised as females. This method of testing was later abolished, as it was shown to be inconclusive in identifying maleness.[10]"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Mega View Post
    The rule changes for IOC included trans and hyperandrogenism. These topics are intertwined - to first know if you fall into trans, you have to define female. The policy is partially motivated as a catch-all to deal with sex-testing issues.

    re: your XY theory:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_ve...tion_in_sports

    "This tested for the Y-chromosome, and was designed to identify males potentially disguised as females. This method of testing was later abolished, as it was shown to be inconclusive in identifying maleness.[10]"
    BS. It's only considered inconclusive when people identify as females and actually have male chromosomes.
    If you have a Y-chromosome you are male. You might even be a deformed male, but you are a male. By scientific definition.

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  109. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    BS. It's only considered inconclusive when people identify as females and actually have male chromosomes.
    If you have a Y-chromosome you are male. You might even be a deformed male, but you are a male. By scientific definition.

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    You mad bro? You sound mad. Read the page it has plenty of instances where your superficial take is just dead wrong. Sorry to bring your world view bad news.

    Edit:

    Quote Originally Posted by scatterbrained View Post
    This is a fallback for people defending trans woman athletes, but again, it doesn't really apply.
    I think a part of my interest in bringing the complications of gender testing is it feels sort unsettling that only female athletes have the burden of proving their woman-ness - the whole things gets sort of ugly. As I wrote, I don't have answers for this - I just acknowledge my own limitations and blindspots & try to be compassionate to the athletes. My views are irrelevant- the rules are what they are - they will change yet again.
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  110. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Mega View Post
    You mad bro? You sound mad.
    Get that crap out of here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottzg View Post
    Get that crap out of here.
    LOL - Ok. This one jumped anyway. I was 100% respectful until he called me BS and keeps calling the trans athletes "men" (and deformed ! not demeaning at all - lol) to purposely be provocative.

    have at it gents!
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    Even drag racing has an altered class.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Mega View Post
    .......



    I think a part of my interest in bringing the complications of gender testing is it feels sort unsettling that only female athletes have the burden of proving their woman-ness - the whole things gets sort of ugly. ........
    Well, I think the reasoning there is self evident. For the same reason sanctioning bodies will try to identify sandbaggers and force them into the appropriate class. If a woman wants to compete with the men they are going to be at a disadvantage.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Mega View Post
    LOL - Ok. This one jumped anyway. I was 100% respectful until he called me BS and keeps calling the trans athletes "men" (and deformed ! not demeaning at all - lol) to purposely be provocative.

    have at it gents!
    'BS' was regarding your statement regarding genetic testing being an inconclusive determent of gender, not you personally. That's just an attempt by a group with a social agenda to deny science, nothing more. No different than big oil denying global warming. My worldview consists of a microbiology degree that covered this topic at length. It's not influenced by an agenda or personal bigotry, simply scientific fact.

    Just pointing out that a Y chromosome defines you as a man. If you don't have all man parts you would have a deformity, but you would be a man with a deformity. I never called trans women 'deformed' as you claimed. Far from it, they are well developed males in all cases that I am aware of.

    In the context of athletics, trans women are men, since a significant factor in athletic performance is one's birth sex. Socially, well I had a good trans friend for years and like all fellow human beings, I accept them as they accept themselves with no judgement and as a trans woman, my friend was a 'she' to me. But scientifically speaking that doesn't apply when athletics or child birth are involved, at some point you have to look at these things honestly and not through the lens of being PC.

    Really your entire post mischaracterized what I stated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GRPABT1 View Post
    Thus far the only hate I've read has been aimed at "cave men" "old fogies" etc. Funny how hate speech is opinionated.
    Since I used 'old fogeys' I guess I'll respond - Google the definition, it fits perfectly. Not hate speech at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    If you have a Y-chromosome you are male. You might even be a deformed male, but you are a male. By scientific definition.
    He provided links that show you are wrong, but clearly you didn't read or comprehend them. Science is actually quite a bit more complex than your eighth grade biology teacher taught you, go figure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vader View Post
    Even drag racing has an altered class.
    LOL I see what you did there

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    Nice to see the title to reflect the thread topic a bit more accurately.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    Once again, too much emphasis is placed on hormone levels. I was a male with very low T for years and still an above average male athlete.

    Armstrong stated something to the effect of 'the T didn't really do much, it was the XXX that made all of the difference".

    If a bio female has unusually high T levels that occur naturally, that is just genetic variance that is perfectly acceptable.
    T aids in a speedier recovery.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDwayyo View Post
    I'll leave your obnoxious post alone because it speaks for itself, however your choice of hashtags is offensive. The political one is just unnecessary, but damn you really thought it cute to throw a hashtag referring to sexual abuse on here? You sir are an ass.
    The point still stands - this whole discussion is rooted in discrimination and segregation at its very core. Stop the discrimination and the problems evaporate. Simple.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Schulze View Post
    The point still stands - this whole discussion is rooted in discrimination and segregation at its very core. Stop the discrimination and the problems evaporate. Simple.
    You say discrimination and segregation, I say rules and regulations. We're talking about athletics here, not some social injustice.

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    Athletics is an industry. You cannot pretend it doesn't matter to people's lives and happiness.

    removed inappropriate comparitor

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    Quote Originally Posted by Schulze View Post
    Athletics is an industry. You cannot pretend it doesn't matter to people's lives and happiness.

    removed inappropriate comparitor
    Post edited. Lets not go where you steered it.

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    Agreed, driver bob. I will stay on topic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mizzaboom View Post
    This is the kind of lowest hanging fruit BS response that is killing this country in many areas. We all know you're super woke and non-offensive bro....even if it means denying reality.
    Oh I'm sorry, I meant to say a lot of scared and insecure cavemen in this thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Schulze View Post
    The point still stands - this whole discussion is rooted in discrimination and segregation at its very core. Stop the discrimination and the problems evaporate. Simple.
    You missed the point of my post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Train Wreck View Post
    You say discrimination and segregation, I say rules and regulations. We're talking about athletics here, not some social injustice.
    While I agree that sports have a bit more wiggle room on this stuff, I think it's fair to say that sports are an important enough social construct that they have an impact on society as a whole. As such, I don't think it's totally unfair to say that this is a social justice issue... Especially considering the many opportunities afforded to top athletes in our society that aren't to the average citizen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schulze View Post
    Athletics is an industry. You cannot pretend it doesn't matter to people's lives and happiness.

    removed inappropriate comparitor

  126. #126
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    Kate Weatherly satisfied all the current UCI requirements to race in the category she did.

    For those familiar with Red Dwarf, the excellent BBC series created by Grant Naylor:

    In 2224: After the World Cup added rules for Genetic Alternative Sports, Scotland created a genetically engineered goal keeper that was eight feet tall and sixteen feet wide, thereby blocking the entire goal. Ironically, they still did not qualify for the second round.

    Governing bodies in all sports are in the unenviable position of having to maintain a fair playing field for all athletes and it's only going to get more complicated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by driver bob View Post
    Governing bodies in all sports are in the unenviable position of having to maintain a fair playing field for all athletes and it's only going to get more complicated.
    Yup. We all want the same thing, 'fairness' in competition, but what that looks like and how it is achieved leaves A LOT of room for debate. Unfortunately I don't think there will ever be a solution that satisfies everyone, or even a majority of people.

    What is fair in society as a whole seems to be at odds with what is fair in organized competition. As much as I hate to say it, I think probably the best thing to do is stick to birth certificates and athletes will just have to decide if that's something they're OK with. That's not fair from a societal standpoint, but it is definitely the easiest way to keep things fair competition-wise.

    No easy answers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by matadorCE View Post
    Sigh. The idea that someone would go through gender reassignment (and everything that includes) just to win a couple of races in an extremely niche sport is downright ridiculous, absurd, and laughable. It's societal issues like these that expose the fragility of people's ego, self-esteem, and mental health--can't hide your weakness no matter how hard you try.
    Finally, a post that gets it. Sad, but unsurprising, how many people line up to prove what buttholes they are.

    There's an easy solution, stop caring about racing. There are far more important issues here than cycling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Train Wreck View Post
    There's an easy solution, stop caring about racing. There are far more important issues here than cycling.
    You are playing into the hands of those you oppose perfectly. Essentially your solution is 'it's just racing, who cares?' That attitude will nullify all competition pretty quickly if we allow it to become prevalent. I'd like to think there's a way to protect individual rights while continuing the millennia-old tradition of competitive sports.

    I definitely agree that people's right to live a happy life the way they choose to supersedes any sporting event... But does that include allowing them to be in said sporting event even when it is clearly unfair to other competitors? Again, if that's your belief then we might as well abolish organized sports because it will all be meaningless.

    Funny how even my own opinion on this is a moving target.

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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    There are far more important issues here than cycling.
    Tell that to the pro racer, whose job and personal livelihood are most likely tied to their racing results, that came in 4th.
    I would advise not taking my advice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    Finally, a post that gets it. Sad, but unsurprising, how many people line up to prove what buttholes they are.
    More name calling. Closest thing to bigotry in this thread.

    We're looking at a spectrum and where you draw the boundaries. How do you feel about this woman? Do you think it's fair that she can compete with other women while this man can't?
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDwayyo View Post
    I definitely agree that people's right to live a happy life the way they choose to supersedes any sporting event... But does that include allowing them to be in said sporting event even when it is clearly unfair to other competitors? Again, if that's your belief then we might as well abolish organized sports because it will all be meaningless.
    I'm not playing into anyone's hands, I simply don't care one bit about competitive cycling and if allowing certain athletes to compete renders sports "meaningless" I'm fine with it. Good riddance.

    My opinion on who should be allowed to compete doesn't matter nor does anyone else's here. People need to defer to professionals on the subject. That's not the reason this thread was created though.

    Steroid use hasn't rendered sports meaningless so why should this? Who has a more unfair advantage, a female using PEDs or a transgendered female that competes with her? Who knows and why should anyone care? I don't oppose PEDs, I oppose all the lying surrounding them. Athletic competition is about cheating in every way possible, sexual transitioning is hardly an easy way in that regard.

    No trans person ever transitioned to gain some athletic advantage.

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    Correct me if I'm wrong, but who said anything about the original athlete in this thread becoming TG JUST to compete? I must have missed that.

    That would be a very personal reason that personally I don't have an issue with. Live your life for sure, but keep the playing field levelled.

    I like the question posted, how does girl #4 feels about this?
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottzg View Post
    More name calling. Closest thing to bigotry in this thread.

    We're looking at a spectrum and where you draw the boundaries. How do you feel about this woman? Do you think it's fair that she can compete with other women while this man can't?
    LOL talk about projection. Registered republican?

    I don't care about the boundaries and I have no feelings about either of these people because I don't know them. I also don't care what anyone on MTBR has to say about them. There are bigger issues.

  135. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    Finally, a post that gets it. Sad, but unsurprising, how many people line up to prove what buttholes they are.

    There's an easy solution, stop caring about racing. There are far more important issues here than cycling.
    Wait, so it shouldn't be a big enough deal for cisgender people to worry about... but a big enough deal for transgender people to worry about being able to compete? It is a big enough deal on both sides I think.

    Of course, you are right...it is a small issue in the grand scheme, and in one sense, it is hopeful that these smaller issues are now forefront concerns, as opposed to the basic acceptance of trans people in society that was an issue not too long ago. I don't think anyone is transitioning simply to gain an advantage in sports. Minor issue ...

    But, to say it doesn't matter I think discounts people on both sides. And it isn't just cycling. High school track is being dominated in states where trans girls are allowed to compete with cisgender girls, and state records are being decimated. https://www.foxnews.com/sports/trans...in-connecticut. It matters to these girls. As one competitor mentioned, it might have cost her college scolarships. And the transgirl's response is kinda funny -- well, try harder! lol, an ironic attitude to take, I think.

    High school is probably even more complex of an issue, as many of the competitors haven't been in transition as long and the effect of hormone therapy probably hasn't taken root. It appears in other sporting bodies, trans women are required to wait a certain amount of time. But that is not practical in high school.

    And it clearly matters to these women. https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/l...d-title-397473

    Again, another curious response by the transwoman, calling her transphobic and so forth.
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    LOL talk about projection. Registered republican?
    ...Says the texan to the californian.


    Nah, i lean hard left on social issues. So far left i recognize that the issue is nuanced, and that people that don't agree with me aren't 'buttholes.' That attitude stifles conversation, mutual understanding, and consensus. Look what it's done to our political climate.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcd46 View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but who said anything about the original athlete in this thread becoming TG JUST to compete? I must have missed that.
    Everyone who claims it is cheating is saying they are trans to compete, your insertion of "JUST" doesn't change that.

    Are athletes with genetic advantages cheating? Of course not. A trans person says their condition is no different. No one here is qualified to say differently. Don't like it, stop supporting competition. There will never be any solution that doesn't privilege someone.

    So a trans person wins a competition? I say good for them. What would I say to the #4 girl? Work harder, odds are you've done nothing in your life as difficult as what the trans person accomplished.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tystevens View Post
    Wait, so it shouldn't be a big enough deal for cisgender people to worry about... but a big enough deal for transgender people to worry about being able to compete? It is a big enough deal on both sides I think.

    Of course, you are right...it is a small issue in the grand scheme, and in one sense, it is hopeful that these smaller issues are now forefront concerns, as opposed to the basic acceptance of trans people in society that was an issue not too long ago. I don't think anyone is transitioning simply to gain an advantage in sports. Minor issue ...

    But, to say it doesn't matter I think discounts people on both sides. And it isn't just cycling. High school track is being dominated in states where trans girls are allowed to compete with cisgender girls, and state records are being decimated. https://www.foxnews.com/sports/trans...in-connecticut. It matters to these girls. As one competitor mentioned, it might have cost her college scolarships. And the transgirl's response is kinda funny -- well, try harder! lol, an ironic attitude to take, I think.

    High school is probably even more complex of an issue, as many of the competitors haven't been in transition as long and the effect of hormone therapy probably hasn't taken root. It appears in other sporting bodies, trans women are required to wait a certain amount of time. But that is not practical in high school.

    And it clearly matters to these women. https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/l...d-title-397473

    Again, another curious response by the transwoman, calling her transphobic and so forth.
    No one is losing track scholarships as a result of losing to a trans person.

    Why? Because the NCAA requires MTF trans persons to compete on the male team.

    As such, the MTF trans kid running a 2:03 800m isnít getting a scholarship. Why? Theyíd have to compete against men in college, who are running 10+ seconds faster as high schoolers.

    If a girl thinks she is losing a scholarship because she lost to someone ineligible to compete against her at the college level, she a) isnít that good and b) might consider going to a junior college for a couple years first. Because she lacks the ability to use logic, reasoning and perform research. Qualities that are essential to a successful college student.


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    Quote Originally Posted by scottzg View Post
    So far left i recognize that the issue is nuanced, and that people that don't agree with me aren't 'buttholes.' That attitude stifles conversation, mutual understanding, and consensus.
    If there's any conversation that needs to be stifled, it's this one. Not all stifling is bad and not all consensus is good.

    Also, the buttholes posting in the thread aren't buttholes because they disagree with me, they're buttholes because of the points of view they express. As a "far left" who called my comment bigoted, I'd think you'd be able to appreciate the nuance.

    Finally, I'll remind you, as a Texan to a Californian, that intolerance of intolerance is not bigotry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    Everyone who claims it is cheating is saying they are trans to compete, your insertion of "JUST" doesn't change that.

    Are athletes with genetic advantages cheating? Of course not. A trans person says their condition is no different. No one here is qualified to say differently. Don't like it, stop supporting competition. There will never be any solution that doesn't privilege someone.

    So a trans person wins a competition? I say good for them. What would I say to the #4 girl? Work harder, odds are you've done nothing in your life as difficult as what the trans person accomplished.
    Yes, "just" to do something makes a difference. A genetic advantage is different than a self-created one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    I'm not playing into anyone's hands, I simply don't care one bit about competitive cycling and if allowing certain athletes to compete renders sports "meaningless" I'm fine with it. Good riddance.
    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    There are bigger issues.
    If this is your attitude then you shouldn't be riding bikes at all, you should be out fighting social injustices with every ounce of your being. You're basically saying that anything done for enjoyment is meaningless while injustices are occurring. That's noble, but you don't actually live that way - very few do (Ghandi might be one).

    Sounds to me like you just don't like organized sports (I don't either) and would rather scrap them altogether than work to find a solution to a complex problem. That doesn't serve the trans community anymore than just banning them from sports outright would, the result is the same...

  142. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcd46 View Post
    A genetic advantage is different than a self-created one.
    ...and there's the inherent prejudice. Who are you to say that trans is "self-created"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    What would I say to the #4 girl? Work harder, odds are you've done nothing in your life as difficult as what the trans person accomplished.
    You need to spend some more time with that statement I think. You know nothing about #4, sounds like you don't even know her name, and seemingly the only thing you know about the TG person is that she is TG... And you want to tell #4 she has never done anything as difficult? This is where even liberal people like myself start jumping ship; equality should be about equality, your attitude is all about giving preference to TG people sight unseen just because they are TG.

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    You're quoting me? Those are not my words.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Train Wreck View Post
    You're quoting me? Those are not my words.
    Sorry, it's fixed now. I've got one of your quotes stuck as a multi-quote so I just got careless in deleting it out I guess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDwayyo View Post
    If this is your attitude then you shouldn't be riding bikes at all, you should be out fighting social injustices with every ounce of your being. You're basically saying that anything done for enjoyment is meaningless while injustices are occurring. That's noble, but you don't actually live that way - very few do (Ghandi might be one).

    Sounds to me like you just don't like organized sports (I don't either) and would rather scrap them altogether than work to find a solution to a complex problem. That doesn't serve the trans community anymore than just banning them from sports outright would, the result is the same...
    Well, the first paragraph is completely absurd.

    As for the second, you seem to think I'm trying to serve the trans community when I'm not. I care about them as people and want them to be happy and successful. I don't think that true for many here, but that's another subject.

    The importance of competition in society is what creates this problem and what's increasingly obvious is that there is not, and never will be, a level playing field. The solution is to stop, not to bitch about one small group or another.

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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    ...and there's the inherent prejudice. Who are you to say that trans is "self-created"?
    How many surgeries, hormones, injections, psychological visits does one have to do to transition?

    Nothing prejudicial about that, is reality. Again, nothing wrong live and let live, you can't deny in sports there is an advantage.

    That's what this thread is about.
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    I'm not playing into anyone's hands, I simply don't care one bit about competitive cycling and if allowing certain athletes to compete renders sports "meaningless" I'm fine with it. Good riddance.

    My opinion on who should be allowed to compete doesn't matter nor does anyone else's here. People need to defer to professionals on the subject. That's not the reason this thread was created though.

    Steroid use hasn't rendered sports meaningless so why should this? Who has a more unfair advantage, a female using PEDs or a transgendered female that competes with her? Who knows and why should anyone care? I don't oppose PEDs, I oppose all the lying surrounding them. Athletic competition is about cheating in every way possible, sexual transitioning is hardly an easy way in that regard.

    No trans person ever transitioned to gain some athletic advantage.
    Whoa, somehow i missed this. That's an interesting perspective, and certainly not one i would have come up with on my own.
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  149. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    The importance of competition in society is what creates this problem and what's increasingly obvious is that there is not, and never will be, a level playing field.
    Do you manufacture participation trophies for a living?
    I would advise not taking my advice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jcd46 View Post
    How many surgeries, hormones, injections, psychological visits does one have to do to transition?

    Nothing prejudicial about that, is reality. Again, nothing wrong live and let live, you can't deny in sports there is an advantage.

    That's what this thread is about.
    Is it really though? I don't think it's remotely about that.

    A trans person argues that he/she is not the gender of which he/she was born and that transitioning is a correction of that error. It is not a self-created situation but rather a difficult process to correct a problem that they didn't ask for. Therefore, it is not a "self-created" situation any more than receiving treatment for cancer is self-created.

    You, OTOH, want to think of gender reassignment as elective. Perhaps you should study the subject more.

    As for whether there is an advantage, I have not commented on that. Sports, however, has an inherently biased playing field. What I've said is that there is no solution that doesn't privilege someone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    Well, the first paragraph is completely absurd.
    It is an absurd concept, but that it follows from your post is not at all absurd. It absolutely does. If we can just throw competitive sports out the window because it's causing inequity then we should be throwing everything out with it. Every second of your day that you take to enjoy something you are ignoring a social injustice to instead serve your selfish purposes. By your logic this is inexcusable.

    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    The importance of competition in society is what creates this problem and what's increasingly obvious is that there is not, and never will be, a level playing field. The solution is to stop, not to bitch about one small group or another.
    There's not a level playing field in album sales, should we stop creating music? There's not a level playing field in the dating world, should we switch to arranged marriages? There's not a level playing field in society as a whole, should we abolish that?

    If sports are so flawed that we need to throw them out altogether then certainly that's true of the majority of human pursuits.

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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    Is it really though? I don't think it's remotely about that.

    A trans person argues that he/she is not the gender of which he/she was born and that transitioning is a correction of that error. It is not a self-created situation but rather a difficult process to correct a problem that they didn't ask for. Therefore, it is not a "self-created" situation any more than receiving treatment for cancer is self-created.

    You, OTOH, want to think of gender reassignment as elective. Perhaps you should study the subject more.

    As for whether there is an advantage, I have not commented on that. Sports, however, has an inherently biased playing field. What I've said is that there is no solution that doesn't privilege someone.
    Good post here.

    It is a tough situation because gender non-conformity is definitely not a choice - these people just feel the way they do by no doing of their own... But the surgeries are definitely a choice in that there are many options, including doing nothing at all, and literally a choice must be made. Many who identify as the opposite gender will never undergo surgery or any treatments... It is most definitely a choice, it's just that the underlying reason for it is not. Tough to parse what that means in the context of our discussion but it's worth noting.

    I'd agree that it's no different from some more standard medical procedures, but I'd argue it's more like a cosmetic one to repair a birth defect. Cancer patients will die if they don't get treatment, while those repairing a birth defect will just feel psychological effects. I'm not discounting the negative experiences of people with non-conforming gender (or of those with birth defects) but comparing them to cancer is a bit of a stretch.

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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    Is it really though? I don't think it's remotely about that.

    A trans person argues that he/she is not the gender of which he/she was born and that transitioning is a correction of that error. It is not a self-created situation but rather a difficult process to correct a problem that they didn't ask for. Therefore, it is not a "self-created" situation any more than receiving treatment for cancer is self-created.

    You, OTOH, want to think of gender reassignment as elective. Perhaps you should study the subject more.

    As for whether there is an advantage, I have not commented on that. Sports, however, has an inherently biased playing field. What I've said is that there is no solution that doesn't privilege someone.
    Is gender expression a social construct or not? The answer and reasoning to that answer will examine what the conflict is here.

    "Gender reassignment" might be the politically correct term, but it doesn't describe what the words seem to say. If gender is social and sex is biological, I don't think you need me to explain why cutting up one's genitals to install the ones from the other sex is very individual and certainly anything but "social."

    There are so many irreconcilable conflicts with what is going on here, for which there really can be no "tolerance" until we figure out what it is we're talking about.

    If gender is purely a social creature and not related to sex, then how is gender expression something other than a choice?

    Even if gender expression isn't a choice, how does one's gender expression entitle them to compete as his or her gender expression dictates?

    Why have women's sports if sex isn't relevant in determining who gets to compete?

    One can be entirely respectful of transgender people and recognize that these problems are not solved by allowing biological males to compete against biological females in women's sports. We can still recognize these people's gender identity without allowing them to compete against the other sex.

    And what about intersex people? Do they just get to compete completely based on their gender identity? There's a whole bunch of problems with that, too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by twodownzero View Post
    One can be entirely respectful of transgender people and recognize that these problems are not solved by allowing biological males to compete against biological females in women's sports. We can still recognize these people's gender identity without allowing them to compete against the other sex.

    And what about intersex people? Do they just get to compete completely based on their gender identity? There's a whole bunch of problems with that, too.
    One can argue that everyone gets to compete based on their "gender identity" as long as it is "cis". It's like saying that gay people have always been allowed to marry the opposite sex, just like straight people.

    Intersex people are the ones whose "gender" was actually "assigned at birth", at least for most of them. It's not clear that this kind of distinction really moves the needle for them any more than it does for anyone else.

    As for "these problems" not being solved, it depends on what "these problems" are. For a trans person, allowing them to compete may very well solve their problem even as it creates others.

    Ignoring sports for a second, society also has issues with trans and public restrooms. There is one simple, elegant solution to this problem...unisex restrooms. Problem solved.

    If you want to solve the trans in sports problem, you need to take a step back like you do with the restroom problem. You must see the bigger picture. What is it that people are actually fighting about and how do we eliminate it?

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    This doesn't seem to be a problem in any men's sports. Simply put there is no advantage for a woman that has transition to a man in competition. In fact it is a disadvantage. Also the drugs required usually exclude them from regulated competition.

    There is not a level playing field in most sport between men and women. If you where born a man or transition to male, then you need to compete as a man or specifically against other transgender athletes.

    Regular life is different and they should have all the rights and protections afforded everyone else.
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexbn921 View Post
    Also the drugs required usually exclude them from regulated competition.
    Not to contradict what you've said, but this alone is inherently unfair, not just to trans but to any number of athletes that may have a condition that requires treatment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    Not to contradict what you've said, but this alone is inherently unfair, not just to trans but to any number of athletes that may have a condition that requires treatment.
    Unfair to who? The people that aren't allowed to take performance enhancing drugs? Allowances can and are made for medical treatment, but are very limited and tend to be abused. There is a reason that cyclists have 10X the normal rate of asthma in the pro ranks. The drug has a very small performance boost.
    Things like testosterone offer a significant advantage.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phillbo View Post
    If born a male you will have natural advantages if competing against most females. This is simply not a fair competition....

    But then, he cheated and did not take first ... things that make you go hmmmmm.
    Like Joe Rogan says about Fallon Fox... "She" is isn't good at MMA, she is bigger and stronger which makes up for the lack of talent. The real woman that got bumped off the podium by "Kate" is the one that really got screwed over.

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    The irony of people clutching to outdated constructs and phantom ideals as if it were a lifejacket keeping them afloat in the ocean calling others 'snowflakes' or 'SJJ' or 'liberals' or 'left wing' is genuinely hilarious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by matadorCE View Post
    The irony of people clutching to outdated constructs and phantom ideals as if it were a lifejacket keeping them afloat in the ocean calling others 'snowflakes' or 'SJJ' or 'liberals' or 'left wing' is genuinely hilarious.
    ...and if a 'left winger' disagrees with your stance on this issue, what does that make me?

    Just curious, as you seem to paint with broad strokes, just like the the 'cavemen' here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    Honestly what is most disturbing is the abuse that is heaped on anyone that tries to discuss this. The quickest way to lose your athletic career it turns out, is to tell the truth on this topic. What bullies.
    Totally agree. I mean if Martina Navritilova can't point out issues like that without getting torched, then who can.

    I think the biggest thing getting lost here is the fact that when a person discusses or points out a potential or perceived "unfair" biological athletic advantage, it does NOT necessarily make them close-minded, bigoted, or insensitive to the struggles of transgender people. I have many gay and lesbian friends, and have friends of friends that are transgender, so I'm not completely ignorant of the issues transgender people go through (but by no means would I say I'm knowledgeable about it). That being said, if someone called me a bigot for saying Kate Weatherby or Rachel McKinnon had unfair biological advantages IN REGARDS TO COMPETITION, then I would take a major offense to that and tell them to their face that they are the ones being intolerant and insensitive.

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    I don't have an answer for this but it goes beyond hormones as some have stated. As a parent and coach, I've seen genders begin to diverge consistently starting somewhere around 5 years old for many sports, soccer, baseball, hockey, mountain biking, etc. There are generally outlying individuals who are exceptional or way below average, but in general boys quickly begin to outpace girls in most sports, well before they go through puberty or have drastically different hormone levels.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbadger1977 View Post
    Totally agree. I mean if Martina Navritilova (who is gay) can't point out issues like that without getting torched, then who can.
    Figured I'd add that for those who don't follow tennis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexbn921 View Post
    Unfair to who? The people that aren't allowed to take performance enhancing drugs?
    Yes, is that not clear?

    Let's say you had testicular cancer and could no longer produce T. You would want that supplemented for quality of life yet that would prevent you from competing. That would be unfair. Now say you receive an exemption. How much can you have and it be fair? There is no actual standard and individuals are all over the map. Regardless of what you can have, others will then assert that you have an unfair advantage. The fact that there are PED bans creates these intractable unfair advantages.

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    So, "a bit" more accurately WTF else could it say to make it "accurate" IYHO? As to the title being changed, I DID NOT do it, I was respectfully asked before it was changed, but I do not believe it should have been - IMO, once a man, always a man and vice versa, no matter how much you feel like whatever else you want to feel like.

    As to the turning TG for athletic advantage, I threw that in there to give those who I knew would look for anything else besides the topic of unfair advantage of the current rules, to have something else to throw at and make it stick instead of just addressing the topic, and several took it and ran far with it. Whether I believe that about this athlete, can't say 100% for sure, but I sure as hell wouldn't rule it out as something someone with an inert need to win and garner attention, at any cost wouldn't do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forest Rider View Post
    Nice to see the title to reflect the thread topic a bit more accurately.
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  166. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by matadorCE View Post
    The irony of people clutching to outdated constructs and phantom ideals as if it were a lifejacket keeping them afloat in the ocean calling others 'snowflakes' or 'SJJ' or 'liberals' or 'left wing' is genuinely hilarious.
    You are 50% of the people in this thread who are name calling, and the other guy seems to share your views.


    Quote Originally Posted by EatsDirt View Post
    ...and if a 'left winger' disagrees with your stance on this issue, what does that make me?
    Unremarkable.
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  167. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    Well, this thread has not gone crazy like the comments section on PB, people have stayed with civil discourse, which I think is great and why I started the thread.
    If you honestly think that all the female riders are cool with this, I highly suggest you take a look at the podium shot below, that should settle those thoughts.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Many people have suggested an open class; this idea could be successful. It would not discriminate; it would be open to all racers: Kate, Lance, Lopes, Palmer, midgets, monkeys...all are welcome.

  168. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbadger1977 View Post
    Totally agree. I mean if Martina Navritilova can't point out issues like that without getting torched, then who can.
    No one. If you appear to oppose any aspect of any transgender issue, this likely happens to you.

    Martina did say some ignorant things, but not bigoted ones. She's also beloved and is a lesbian. If she gets blasted, anyone will. I adore Martina and I know she didn't mean harm, but she was wrong on some things. The response, though, was pretty offensive.

    Nevertheless, don't let the animosity frequently displayed by trans activists cloud the issue.

    If you said "Kate Weatherby or Rachel McKinnon had unfair biological advantages IN REGARDS TO COMPETITION" how would you know, and if you merely assume it to be true then perhaps you are a bigot. These are, after all, statements of fact that you cannot know. One has to wonder why you think it's OK to assume this.

  169. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    IMO, once a man, always a man and vice versa, no matter how much you feel like whatever else you want to feel like.
    Sounds informed. As I said...lining up...

    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    ...I sure as hell wouldn't rule it out as something someone with an inert [sic] need to win and garner attention, at any cost wouldn't do
    so you would do it?

  170. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by driver bob View Post
    If anyone posts up hateful speech it will be moderated in an appropriate manner.
    I see quite a bit of hateful speech in this thread, starting with the very first post...

  171. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post

    If you said "Kate Weatherby or Rachel McKinnon had unfair biological advantages IN REGARDS TO COMPETITION" how would you know, and if you merely assume it to be true then perhaps you are a bigot. These are, after all, statements of fact that you cannot know. One has to wonder why you think it's OK to assume this.
    I don't understand how someone refuses to recognize that it's extremely likely they would have some advantage.

  172. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbowho View Post
    Any Man that changes to a Woman, and then enters any sport which takes grit and muscle to win is a Wanker. Things like shooting, not so much.
    How about gymnastics? Seems like a muscle and grit kinda sport.
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  173. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by EatsDirt View Post
    I don't understand how someone refuses to recognize that it's extremely likely they would have some advantage.
    There is a difference between:
    • "extremely likely" and "has"
    • "some advantage" and "unfair biological advantage"
    • observing bias in others and "refuses to recognize"

    Maybe you should not try so hard to construct a straw man.

  174. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    There is a difference between:
    • "extremely likely" and "has"
    • "some advantage" and "unfair biological advantage"
    • observing bias in others and "refuses to recognize"

    Maybe you should not try so hard to construct a straw man.
    Try hard to internet argue? Nah. That's your forte apparently.

    I just think a few people on this thread, you included, appear to have quite a firm stance on this and a self righteous tone. Maybe I'm misreading.

    I wouldn't expect you to admit there might be an advantage given how far you've gone here though...

  175. #175
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    I'm going to tie in a story from my own life to ask a question about this.

    There is a person at my office, not my department but same building and company. That person transitioned from a woman to a man, I don't know how far or anything nor do I care; I want everyone in this world to be happy. You do you. This person now uses the men's bathroom, which again, I don't care at all who comes in the bathroom when I'm in there. Never have.

    It did make me think of something though, and I have the same question on the topic at hand: at what point was this person allowed to use the men's bathroom, or the racer allowed to compete in the women's category? Was there some kind of threshold to pass, or some examination, or what? Could a regular guy that simply says "I identify as a woman" be allowed to compete against women? And vice-versa? Educate me.
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  176. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGweed View Post
    I'm going to tie in a story from my own life to ask a question about this.

    There is a person at my office, not my department but same building and company. That person transitioned from a woman to a man, I don't know how far or anything nor do I care; I want everyone in this world to be happy. You do you. This person now uses the men's bathroom, which again, I don't care at all who comes in the bathroom when I'm in there. Never have.

    It did make me think of something though, and I have the same question on the topic at hand: at what point was this person allowed to use the men's bathroom, or the racer allowed to compete in the women's category? Was there some kind of threshold to pass, or some examination, or what? Could a regular guy that simply says "I identify as a woman" be allowed to compete against women? And vice-versa? Educate me.
    Kate passed the UCI rules I believe passed on t-levels for 12 months prior to competing.

    Not saying it's a perfect system but she did comply with their requirements.

  177. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    As to the title being changed, I DID NOT do it, I was respectfully asked before it was changed, but I do not believe it should have been - IMO, once a man, always a man and vice versa, no matter how much you feel like whatever else you want to feel like.
    I changed the thread title after asking LyNx. He doesn't have to agree with why I did it but I do applaud him for being the bigger person and letting me do it.

  178. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by cogswell23 View Post
    I see quite a bit of hateful speech in this thread, starting with the very first post...
    I've had zero posts in this thread reported as hateful. Some have got close to the line, there's been some back and forth chipping between posters but I am trying to let conversation happen as freely as possible.

    If you (or anyone else) see's a post here they feel is inappropriate then use the "report post" button and all admins and mods will be notified.

  179. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by driver bob View Post
    I've had zero posts in this thread reported as hateful. Some have got close to the line, there's been some back and forth chipping between posters but I am trying to let conversation happen as freely as possible.

    If you (or anyone else) see's a post here they feel is inappropriate then use the "report post" button and all admins and mods will be notified.
    You're a good mod.
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  180. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by EatsDirt View Post
    I wouldn't expect you to admit there might be an advantage given how far you've gone here though...
    Again with the straw man. If you distort my words any more we may have to move it to another thread.

    I'm wondering how "firm" my stance can be if you can't repeat any of it correctly.

  181. #181
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    Lance Armstrong should have said he took drugs to transition into some other creature. Then no one could say he cheated or ban him from racing without being a bigot,
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  182. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    One can argue that everyone gets to compete based on their "gender identity" as long as it is "cis". It's like saying that gay people have always been allowed to marry the opposite sex, just like straight people.

    Intersex people are the ones whose "gender" was actually "assigned at birth", at least for most of them. It's not clear that this kind of distinction really moves the needle for them any more than it does for anyone else.

    As for "these problems" not being solved, it depends on what "these problems" are. For a trans person, allowing them to compete may very well solve their problem even as it creates others.

    Ignoring sports for a second, society also has issues with trans and public restrooms. There is one simple, elegant solution to this problem...unisex restrooms. Problem solved.

    If you want to solve the trans in sports problem, you need to take a step back like you do with the restroom problem. You must see the bigger picture. What is it that people are actually fighting about and how do we eliminate it?
    None of this really addresses the points I raised. It also seems that all you care about is the transgender athlete at the expense of competitive equity, even if it means destroying women's sports forever.

    I am perfectly fine with respecting transgender people. I am not fine with enabling them in such a way that just encourages resentment and ruins sports for the remaining participants.

  183. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by cogswell23 View Post
    I see quite a bit of hateful speech in this thread, starting with the very first post...
    Are you assuming the original poster's emotion?

  184. #184
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    Trans people are more likely to complete suicide and be victims of violence. That's not fair. If trans people feel like there's a place in society for them and have role models for success it would do a lot to improve those statistics. If it costs a few biological females "their" spot every once in a while then I think the good clearly outweighs the bad.

    I think it's premature to react as if MTF athletes are going to ruin female athletics. That's a possibility and if that seems to be the direction things are headed then obviously some changes need to be made...the answer won't be easy and won't please everyone. But for now I think it's best to err on the side of inclusion and remember the bigger picture when it comes to fairness - women's access to education, healthcare, childcare and equal pay and trans people's right to safety and dignity.

  185. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sidewalk View Post
    Quoted to repeat my opinion.

    I'll also place this year. A woman, actual woman, who is being told she is not woman enough and has to change her body:
    https://www.cbc.ca/sports/olympics/t...dict-1.5160106
    She has testicles.

  186. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by driver bob View Post
    I've had zero posts in this thread reported as hateful. Some have got close to the line, there's been some back and forth chipping between posters but I am trying to let conversation happen as freely as possible.

    If you (or anyone else) see's a post here they feel is inappropriate then use the "report post" button and all admins and mods will be notified.
    I reported the OP as abusive. Intentionally derogatory misgendering *IS* hateful, and this entire thread is full of it. All these dudes up in here being like, ďIím only concerned with the fairness of the athleticsĒ then turning around and implying that Kate or others only transitioned as a means of achieving greater athletic glory, or refusing to refer to her as a woman, are peddling in abusive, damaging and inaccurate stereotypes and tropes.

    I havenít seen any slurs used in this thread if thatís what you mean, but if thatís the only standard, youíre setting a really low bar.

  187. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schulze View Post
    Are you assuming the original poster's emotion?
    Of course not. But when someone does or says transphobic things, thatís really good evidence that theyíre a transphobe. I donít have to know whatís in someoneís heart to make that call.

    Iím not saying that thereís no discussion to be had about how to parse this all out in athletics. I am saying that thereís a whole lot of deeply disrespectful, abusive and bigoted views being thrown about in this thread.

  188. #188
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    Even if transgender males can suppress their testosterone, that doesnít negate their physical advantage. Athletic women are amazing, but quite simply different than athletic males.

    Serena Williams is a great female tennis player, but if she were forced to play on a male circuit, she wouldn't have made most college teams. That is why the categories are distinct. It does not make men better in some fundamental sense. They are just able to run faster and lift heavier things.
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  189. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyclelicious View Post
    Even if transgender males can suppress their testosterone, that doesnít negate their physical advantage. Athletic women are amazing, but quite simply different than athletic males.

    Serena Williams is a great female tennis player, but if she were forced to play on a male circuit, she wouldn't have made most college teams. That is why the categories are distinct. It does not make men better in some fundamental sense. They are just able to run faster and lift heavier things.
    I'm glad a woman (super woman at that) chimed in.

    Thanks CL.
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  190. #190
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    Agreed. I'm all in favor of anyone doing with his or her body whatever they want as long as no one else's right are stepped on, but this is stretching tolerance to absurd limits.

    If they want to race in another gender class so much, then they should open a class for them, not allow them to force their way into a class of athletes who genuinely deserve to be there.

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  191. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by cogswell23 View Post
    I reported the OP as abusive. Intentionally derogatory misgendering *IS* hateful, and this entire thread is full of it. All these dudes up in here being like, ďIím only concerned with the fairness of the athleticsĒ then turning around and implying that Kate or others only transitioned as a means of achieving greater athletic glory, or refusing to refer to her as a woman, are peddling in abusive, damaging and inaccurate stereotypes and tropes.

    I havenít seen any slurs used in this thread if thatís what you mean, but if thatís the only standard, youíre setting a really low bar.
    Maybe you should go find another thread to troll...Iíve got this one covered

  192. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by cogswell23 View Post

    Iím not saying that thereís no discussion to be had about how to parse this all out in athletics. I am saying that thereís a whole lot of deeply disrespectful, abusive and bigoted views being thrown about in this thread.
    Big problem with society right here. Everything is "bigoted" these days if you don't cater to the right persons point of view. That's all I've got to say about that. This thread has been very very peaceful, without a single "terrible trans-phobic" view, in my opinion of course.

  193. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    Again with the straw man. If you distort my words any more we may have to move it to another thread.

    I'm wondering how "firm" my stance can be if you can't repeat any of it correctly.
    OK

    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    If you said "Kate Weatherby or Rachel McKinnon had unfair biological advantages IN REGARDS TO COMPETITION" how would you know, and if you merely assume it to be true then perhaps you are a bigot. These are, after all, statements of fact that you cannot know. One has to wonder why you think it's OK to assume this.
    You sure can imply quite a bit without actually taking a position.

    Flimsy.

    Congrats on winning another internet argument!

  194. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by R_Pierce View Post
    Big problem with society right here. Everything is "bigoted" these days if you don't cater to the right persons point of view. That's all I've got to say about that. This thread has been very very peaceful, without a single "terrible trans-phobic" view, in my opinion of course.
    Youíre blind or ignorant if you canít see the mockery and disrespect that is rampant in this thread.

  195. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by cogswell23 View Post
    Youíre blind or ignorant if you canít see the mockery and disrespect that is rampant in this thread.
    cool story bro...

  196. #196
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    So two other women hit podium on a higher level, but it's a tragedy a trans person got 3rd?

    Ok. Are the first and second place women cheaters? Sjoukd we test how "true" they are as women? What if their natural testosterone is unusually high?

    Michael Phelps has a distinct biological difference that gives him a significant and dramatic advantage in swimming. He is biologically better than his competiton. Is he cheating because he was born different?

    I couldn't possibly care less that that person hit 3rd. Good for them.

    The female world cup champs would completely ruin any guy in this thread, but people are suggesting we have such a huge advantage that such a race would be us cheating? That's absurd.

  197. #197
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    Kate Weatherly was a mediocre, middle of the pack downhill competitor before switching to the women's field which is tiny terms of numbers. So she placed higher up in the competition and got podium. It is a dick move but still within the rules of play. She had some advantages ...but we'll have to see how this turns out.
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  198. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyclelicious View Post
    . It is a dick move but still .........
    Literally a dick move. hahahaha

  199. #199
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    Surprised that this thread is still running and not locked. On bikeforums.net, it'd have been a veritable bloodbath in the first day.

    Quote Originally Posted by R_Pierce View Post
    Big problem with society right here. Everything is "bigoted" these days if you don't cater to the right persons point of view.
    R_Pierce is correct.
    Wrong opinion = Label applied.
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  200. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Pivot View Post
    So two other women hit podium on a higher level, but it's a tragedy a trans person got 3rd?

    Ok. Are the first and second place women cheaters? Sjoukd we test how "true" they are as women? What if their natural testosterone is unusually high?

    Michael Phelps has a distinct biological difference that gives him a significant and dramatic advantage in swimming. He is biologically better than his competiton. Is he cheating because he was born different?

    I couldn't possibly care less that that person hit 3rd. Good for them.

    The female world cup champs would completely ruin any guy in this thread, but people are suggesting we have such a huge advantage that such a race would be us cheating? That's absurd.
    Again, the woman that got pushed off the podium by a man in the woman's class probably disagrees with you. Like cyclelicious said, testosterone levels aside, men have physical advantages over women in regards to sports. If that wasn't true then Kate would have gotten a mid pack finish like he did when he was racing the men's open class. That is a class down from the elite class BTW.

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