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  1. #1
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    Supporting the U.S.economy with American made bikes/purchases

    I would like to buy American made bike products but is this hard to accomplish if you don't have alot of money? I own a bike that is under $700 and obviously isn't American made, but is it possible to buy American made bikes that are under 1K?? How about bike parts?

  2. #2

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    how about buy from an american lbs in an american made store full of american employees who get their bikes sent in from the american shipping company who also has american employees?

    seriously, dont buy into that ridiculous crap. imported goods put TONS of money directly into the american economy and support american jobs.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomsmoto
    how about buy from an american lbs in an american made store full of american employees who get their bikes sent in from the american shipping company who also has american employees?

    seriously, dont buy into that ridiculous crap. imported goods put TONS of money directly into the american economy and support american jobs.
    exactly right

  4. #4
    mikeb
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    that's what i was going to say. here's where most of your bikes come from nowadays unless it is a very expensive hand-built boutique manufacturer frame...
    Attached Images Attached Images

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomsmoto
    how about buy from an american lbs in an american made store full of american employees who get their bikes sent in from the american shipping company who also has american employees?

    seriously, dont buy into that ridiculous crap. imported goods put TONS of money directly into the american economy and support american jobs.
    Your idea is so ****ing awesome! I love these threads!
    Hey lets buy overseas bikes, and take away American jobs @ $18/hr so those guys can go work at the coffee shop/LBS for $9/HR.
    IF we kept Mfg'ing here, those high paying jobs would make bikes for those people too!
    Your no economist my friend!
    Too bad they got sold. The brain trust will eventually be sucked dry too.

    CDT

  6. #6
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    In all due respect, listen to almost any economist or even someone who has taken basic econ classes and they will tell you free trade is generally a good thing in the long run. Sure some manufacturers have a tough time competing with outsourced labor but that doesn't mean their arn't benefits like lower prices, and higher efficiency.

  7. #7
    mikeb
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    i don't know if you're being sarcastic or not tony, but if low end bicycle frames were mass produced in the states, how much would those workers really be getting paid? would there be labor unions with their bennies and all driving the cost to the manufacturers up?

    i guess the question is that if the buyer wants a good domestic bike at say, six and a half bills, what has to happen in the united states to build that bike in the united states by the hundreds of thousands or even millions?

    whatever needs to happen obviously isn't happening...look where most MTBs on the market are made today.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomsmoto
    how about buy from an american lbs in an american made store full of american employees who get their bikes sent in from the american shipping company who also has american employees?

    seriously, dont buy into that ridiculous crap. imported goods put TONS of money directly into the american economy and support american jobs.
    I see your point but I also want to say that unless you have or are willing to shell out big bucks for a made in the US frame, it's not possible. Even more now because my taxes are going to go through the roof.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by RookieBeotch
    In all due respect, listen to almost any economist or even someone who has taken basic econ classes and they will tell you free trade is generally a good thing in the long run.
    Who said anything about restricting trade? The OP asked whether there were any affordable, domestically-made bikes; as consumers, some of us seek choices rather than monotonous sameness. Besides, making bike frames near the point-of-use IS free trade since there are components on it from all over the world...what could be more inclusive than that? I say that's closer to free trade than a bike which is totally made in China.

    The answer is: there was an affordable US-made choice till Cannondale announced closing their US factory. Now, the only options are high-end frames made in small numbers (no economy of scale).

  10. #10
    discombobulated SuperModerator
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    I am curious what people make for the various jobs at Bedford.
    But also Cdale is successful, they have grown hugely lately and they were profitable.
    Change didn't seem necessary.
    Being in Mfg'ing makes me painfully close to these harsh realities..

  11. #11
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    I think my chances of buying an American car is a little better than buying an American bike.

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    Quote Originally Posted by steadite
    Who said anything about restricting trade? The OP asked whether there were any affordable, domestically-made bikes; as consumers, some of us seek choices rather than monotonous sameness. Besides, making bike frames near the point-of-use IS free trade since there are components on it from all over the world...what could be more inclusive than that? I say that's closer to free trade than a bike which is totally made in China.

    The answer is: there was an affordable US-made choice till Cannondale announced closing their US factory. Now, the only options are high-end frames made in small numbers (no economy of scale).
    I was referring to the post made about taking a manufacturer's job here and sending it to China forcing them to take a lower paying job for 9 dollars an hour instead of 18 hours an hour. Where I got the concept of free trade agreements is the fact that these companies are out sourcing because the labor is cheaper which also allows them to sell the bikes for less. If he wants them to be made here, there would have to be some sort of tariff placed on say Chinese frames, which would make American frames more competetive. Any sort of trade restrictions becomes a slippery slope that no importer/exporter wants to see. If you want American made products you will usually have to pay more, by choosing the American product you are essentially voting with your dollar that you want more American made products, so hats off to you. That is what I was getting at when I mentioned free trade, people do not usually consider the consquences, when they say they "dont want to outsource" these are also the same people who would complain when the prices at wal-mart skyrocketed because of their proposed trade restrictions. Yikes I just lookd back and it's hard to beleive I'm writing about a topic of this nature on mtbr, hopefully you understand where I'm coming from and what I meant now.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by RookieBeotch
    In all due respect, listen to almost any economist or even someone who has taken basic econ classes and they will tell you free trade is generally a good thing in the long run. Sure some manufacturers have a tough time competing with outsourced labor but that doesn't mean their arn't benefits like lower prices, and higher efficiency.
    Yea i am wondering what this has to do with free trade
    No one is restraining any trade here.
    First things first. Cdale isnt having a hard time competing, huge revenue growth, profits etc.

    Outsourcing beneifts? Only time will tell, let's all write down the prices in our little notebooks and see if there some big price drops in 2010. Bookmark this thread. I'm betting not.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by RookieBeotch
    I was referring to the post made about taking a manufacturer's job here and sending it to China forcing them to take a lower paying job for 9 dollars an hour instead of 18 hours an hour. Where I got the concept of free trade agreements is the fact that these companies are out sourcing because the labor is cheaper which also allows them to sell the bikes for less. If he wants them to be made here, there would have to be some sort of tariff placed on say Chinese frames, which would make American frames more competetive. Any sort of trade restrictions becomes a slippery slope that no importer/exporter wants to see. If you want American made products you will usually have to pay more, by choosing the American product you are essentially voting with your dollar that you want more American made products, so hats off to you. That is what I was getting at when I mentioned free trade, people do not usually consider the consquences, when they say they "dont want to outsource" these are also the same people who would complain when the prices at wal-mart skyrocketed because of their proposed trade restrictions. Yikes I just lookd back and it's hard to beleive I'm writing about a topic of this nature on mtbr, hopefully you understand where I'm coming from and what I meant now.
    Man you did alot of assuming there.. Basically, in the static bubble that is now, Cdale is doing fine. they are holding their own , making money.
    The ONLY thing this proves is Dorel wants more than $20M net on $200M sales for their $200M purchase.
    If you think this outsourcing will save YOU money, I doubt it and only TIME will tell.

    And as far as voting with dollars, I try to do it as much as possible, but I am a small fish swimming against a mighty, uninformed, apathetic, consumerist American current...
    Like I said in another thread, we will be the foreign call centers for Chinese consumers in the future.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by CdaleTony
    Yea i am wondering what this has to do with free trade
    No one is restraining any trade here.
    First things first. Cdale isnt having a hard time competing, huge revenue growth, profits etc.

    Outsourcing beneifts? Only time will tell, let's all write down the prices in our little notebooks and see if there some big price drops in 2010. Bookmark this thread. I'm betting not.
    You'll see my rational on how I related it to trade above. I'm not claiming prices will drop, but I think if you could look at their books their profit would be up by 2010. Think of it like this manufacturer was missing out on profit by spending more on frames here than they will be by next year.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by RookieBeotch
    You'll see my rational on how I related it to trade above. I'm not claiming prices will drop, but I think if you could look at their books their profit would be up by 2010. Think of it like this manufacturer was missing out on profit by spending more on frames here than they will be by next year.
    Bottom line, they eviscerated one of the key points of Cdale, for a measly 2-3% points.
    Whored it out really. But in doing so I think they will in the long run lose alot of what Cdale stands for and end up with another GT or Schwinn....Along with kicking another couple hundred people out of their jobs.
    It is not all copacetic, it is the way things are, and have been, but it's not all good.

    Cdale was fine they way it was...

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by CdaleTony
    Bottom line, they eviscerated one of the key points of Cdale, for a measly 2-3% points.
    Whored it out really. But in doing so I think they will in the long run lose alot of what Cdale stands for and end up with another GT or Schwinn....Along with kicking another couple hundred people out of their jobs.
    It is not all copacetic, it is the way things are, and have been, but it's not all good.

    Cdale was fine they way it was...
    That I won't disagree with, I never fealt like I was in true disagreement all along, just wanted to present another viewpoint. Now people will have to choose how important that feature of Cdale was and if it'll stop them from a future purchase. Thats the beauty of America no one makes you buy one over the other, you get to spend how you please.

  18. #18
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    I would like to buy a nice new, quality, american made car for under $7000. How is this possible if you don't have a lot of money?

    No, it's not possible. Goods manufactured in this country have a higher price tag, because in this country, we do things to standards other countries don't, and like always, you get what you pay for. Buy a bike or anything made here, you pay, well, ok, you pay a lot for blood-sucking lawyers and insurance companies to protect you and the mfg and anyone whose ever been within 50 feet of that bike from other blood sucking lawyers, but what's left goes to ensure the product was made with decent environmental controls, quality and safety standards, and employees paid livable wages. That's what's in an American product. You're paying to encourage Americans to keep innovating and valuing trades. Every time you think you're cheating that by saving a couple bucks, you're not actually cheating anything, you're just paying less and getting less, and voting with your wallet, for the devaluation of skilled trades, encouraging a growing culture of talentless middle-managers skimming off the top of foreign workers actually doing the work. It's a complete debasement of the hard-working ethic that made this country a success in the first place.

    But Americans are mainly concerned with themselves, and more specifically, their own money. Wages are down, but spending is up. Businesses are dead, but the Wal-mart parking lots are full. I don't have a lot of faith that people will recognize that their actions have consequences until we are fully dependent on China and India for not only for their consumer markets but our suppliers as well, when we suddenly realize that we're not needed at all, and are only left to bleed the money out as powerless dependents.

    That's the direction we've been happily headed for decades. Sympathy is not (ahem, not supposed to be) a function of the marketplace, and we'll reap what we sow.

    Hooray for Dorel. They're going to make some money for a little while. Someone will have gotten a raise, and a new Lexus. And a thousand qualified people will no longer be bicycle builders. Typically though, mfg's aren't evil, they're just selling what people are buying. If people stop buying american made bikes, they stop making them, as they have done.

    If you've been saving for a decent bike, a $700 taiwanese bike will be just fine if all you're concerned with is the amount of money leaving your pocket, and the bikes ability to do its function under your feet. If you want a decent American bike, keep saving, and get an American bike. I'd argue that this is the difference between someone who rides a bike and someone who has a passion for riding a bike.

  19. #19
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    Somebody opened up a bicycle manufacturing facility on Alcatraz???

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeb
    that's what i was going to say. here's where most of your bikes come from nowadays unless it is a very expensive hand-built boutique manufacturer frame...

  20. #20
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    What I hear most often is "I can only afford a $1000 bike, because I'm so po (...just as you can only afford a $18,000 car, and not a Ferrari)".

    Well, then the reality is, you can afford a $16,000 car, which isn't much of a difference in quality, and a $3,000 bike, which is a giant flying leap in both quality and performance.

    Just depends where your priorities are, as always.

  21. #21
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    people buy the best product they can or are willing to afford. Is a hand built frame made by a skilled artisan in America better then a mass produced frame ? sure it is,
    is a mass produced frame made in America better than the same one made in Taiwan? no it isnt.
    as long as there are people willing to do the same job for less money the manufacturing will go to them. As their standard of living goes up their conpetitivness goes down untill finally they are the same (think of Japan or Korea ) now its Taiwan or Vietnam. Protectionism doesnt work , never has , never will. Look at it this way, we sell the steel & aluminum, we do the design work. Taiwan produces the frames , ships them back to us we also buy build kits (Japan) Tires (Malaysia). We sell it all to the LBS they build it up and sell it to the consumer. Whats wrong with that? seems like everyone gets a piece of the pie.
    If you think that there is a market for a mass produced American bike no one is stopping you from making one.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by dan0
    people buy the best product they can or are willing to afford. Is a hand built frame made by a skilled artisan in America better then a mass produced frame ? sure it is,
    is a mass produced frame made in America better than the same one made in Taiwan? no it isnt.
    as long as there are people willing to do the same job for less money the manufacturing will go to them. As their standard of living goes up their conpetitivness goes down untill finally they are the same (think of Japan or Korea ) now its Taiwan or Vietnam. Protectionism doesnt work , never has , never will. Look at it this way, we sell the steel & aluminum, we do the design work. Taiwan produces the frames , ships them back to us we also buy build kits (Japan) Tires (Malaysia). We sell it all to the LBS they build it up and sell it to the consumer. Whats wrong with that? seems like everyone gets a piece of the pie.
    If you think that there is a market for a mass produced American bike no one is stopping you from making one.
    I agree with every point in your post. You're right, since trades were devalued when everyone realized it was easier to make your money on some other suckers work, MFG centers have danced around from one third world country to the next, as they will continue to do.

    As often as we hear the reassuring claims that the brilliant Americans will be a country of brilliant designers and even more brilliant managers, I have yet to see anyone illustrate how realistically they think that Americans are going to with the emerging superpowers overtaking us at the rate and ferocity they are, especially with both ends of the rug being pulled out from under us, by everyone including ourselves, simultaneously.

    I'd only add that the things you pay for in an american mass produced bike extend beyond the bike. They were higher quality levels applied to everything up stream. Again, if all you're concerned with is the bike, then by all means, make laws that protect the environment and workers health and safety, etc, but then circumvent those laws by sending your production to backwaters in Asia where such standards are not practiced. Again, you get what you pay for. In a bike, and in your country, and in your world. No way around it.

    The unexpected irony of your last sentence being directed at me is actually pretty cool. I'm hanging it up in my office. Thx!

  23. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by CdaleTony
    Your idea is so ****ing awesome! I love these threads!
    Hey lets buy overseas bikes, and take away American jobs @ $18/hr so those guys can go work at the coffee shop/LBS for $9/HR.
    IF we kept Mfg'ing here, those high paying jobs would make bikes for those people too!
    Your no economist my friend!
    Too bad they got sold. The brain trust will eventually be sucked dry too.

    CDT
    yeah lets promote factory jobs. hell, lets tell everyone to drop out of college so they can make crappy money in crappy mindless factory jobs! we can rebuild america on low paying mindless work and call it progress.. then we can all pay 10x as much for essential goods that no one can afford anymore because overhead skyrocketed!

    i seriously doubt you're an economist (or english major ).

    besides, go buy your botique american hand made frame and pack it full of imported japanese/taiwanese parts

    dont want to lose your job in the factory? dont work in one to begin with. times are changing, we cant halt the world because people want to cling to 1950's ideals.

    Protectionism doesnt work , never has , never will.
    exactly. nor is it ever necessary.

  24. #24
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    My only comment is that good paying American jobs pay taxes into the U.S. Treasury from whence cometh all that stimulus money. No good paying jobs, no tax revenue for the Federal Gov. U.S.A goes bankrupt, Chinese buy Treasury we all speak Chinese.

    Jobs going overseas is what got us into this mess, period.
    Happy Trails
    Jolly

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomsmoto
    yeah lets promote factory jobs. hell, lets tell everyone to drop out of college so they can make crappy money in crappy mindless factory jobs! we can rebuild america on low paying mindless work and call it progress.. then we can all pay 10x as much for essential goods that no one can afford anymore because overhead skyrocketed!

    i seriously doubt you're an economist (or english major ).

    besides, go buy your botique <sic> american hand made frame and pack it full of imported japanese/taiwanese parts

    dont want to lose your job in the factory? dont work in one to begin with. times are changing, we cant halt the world because people want to cling to 1950's ideals.


    exactly. nor is it ever necessary.
    We'll see what kind of America mindless consumerism builds in the next 20-30 years.
    As if the current one is better by many measures than it was 20 years ago.

    Your confusing preserving high paying, skilled jobs with all jobs. I appreciate you wanting to rant and attribute all those points to me, but that's not what I said.

    And I see nothing contradictory buying an American frame and hanging import parts on it. Who ever said life is going to be 100% MUSA?
    I make an American-conscious decision when I can.
    And as for the majority of people that don't, at least I can say I have a minimal part on outsourcing losses.Let's not even look at the impact of trade imbalances and national debt we sell overseas to finance our lifestyles.
    But then again these little internet arguments aren't going to prove much until 20 years of hindsight is behind us.

    Let me know how it feels when your life is in upheaval over nothing more than greed.
    You would think with all the problems we are facing because of GREED, people would be a little more conscious of it , instead of being so cavalier and apathetic.
    CDT

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by dan0
    Look at it this way, we sell the steel & aluminum, we do the design work. Taiwan produces the frames , ships them back to us we also buy build kits (Japan) Tires (Malaysia). We sell it all to the LBS they build it up and sell it to the consumer. Whats wrong with that? seems like everyone gets a piece of the pie.
    Reckon that's the way Santa Cruz saw it. Just bought myself a good old Taiwanese SC Nomad. Would have liked for it to be still made in the US, however that is not to be. Liked the bike and wasn't prepared to compromise just to buy an "American" made bike. That is the way of the world.
    "Though my life is changing fast,
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  27. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by CdaleTony
    Let me know how it feels when your life is in upheaval over nothing more than greed.
    You would think with all the problems we are facing because of GREED, people would be a little more conscious of it , instead of being so cavalier and apathetic.
    CDT
    the second i feel my job is in jeopardy of being outdated and obsolete ill start looking for other work instead of clinging on to the past and dragging dead ideals and playing a victim roll.

  28. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by jollybeggar
    My only comment is that good paying American jobs pay taxes into the U.S. Treasury from whence cometh all that stimulus money. No good paying jobs, no tax revenue for the Federal Gov. U.S.A goes bankrupt, Chinese buy Treasury we all speak Chinese.

    Jobs going overseas is what got us into this mess, period.
    The only limitation on this statement is that we have a government that's wildly out of control on many levels, from town to federal. Many levels are raising taxes and that there is a sign of the government being out of control and too big...

    ...yet Americans are here, fighting over Cannondale and Dorel on a message board, rather than organizing protests for accountability and the shrinking of our government that has become a whale that has essentially beached itself due to its girth and inefficiency. The government needs to raise taxes to remain operational, not so much as to pay for the stimulus.

    We should be using the emotions and the energy here to demand accountability and demand the president follow through on his promises, rather than modify or bury them. This country was founded on making the people part of the process, but over time, government has become less transparent and more autonomous, like European governments we were trying not to be.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotBlack
    What I hear most often is "I can only afford a $1000 bike, because I'm so po (...just as you can only afford a $18,000 car, and not a Ferrari)".

    Well, then the reality is, you can afford a $16,000 car, which isn't much of a difference in quality, and a $3,000 bike, which is a giant flying leap in both quality and performance.

    Just depends where your priorities are, as always.
    that's why so many people are in debt today. champagne taste with beer pockets.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by RookieBeotch
    That I won't disagree with, I never fealt like I was in true disagreement all along, just wanted to present another viewpoint. Now people will have to choose how important that feature of Cdale was and if it'll stop them from a future purchase. Thats the beauty of America no one makes you buy one over the other, you get to spend how you please.
    "Thats the beauty of America no one makes you buy one over the other, you get to spend how you please."
    ---------------------------

    this might be in jeopardy with our current administration.

  31. #31
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    [Your confusing preserving high paying, skilled jobs with all jobs.

    In this economy $10 an hour is a high paying job. What some consider low wage jobs ok for outsourcing others need just to be able to survive. All those outsourced jobs use to be the jobs our young people cut their teeth on, now our teens are competing for McJobs with out of work professionals. All so we can make a few extra bucks on our investments and the rich money handlers can make few extra millions handling our money.

    Wake up people!
    Happy Trails
    Jolly

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    The only limitation on this statement is that we have a government that's wildly out of control on many levels, from town to federal. Many levels are raising taxes and that there is a sign of the government being out of control and too big...

    ...yet Americans are here, fighting over Cannondale and Dorel on a message board, rather than organizing protests for accountability and the shrinking of our government that has become a whale that has essentially beached itself due to its girth and inefficiency. The government needs to raise taxes to remain operational, not so much as to pay for the stimulus.

    We should be using the emotions and the energy here to demand accountability and demand the president follow through on his promises, rather than modify or bury them. This country was founded on making the people part of the process, but over time, government has become less transparent and more autonomous, like European governments we were trying not to be.
    AMEN!!

  33. #33
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    Huh?

    [Buy a bike or anything made here, you pay, well, ok, you pay a lot for blood-sucking lawyers and insurance companies to protect you and the mfg and anyone whose ever been within 50 feet of that bike from other blood sucking lawyers...[/QUOTE]

    Care to provide some verifiable facts to support your statement?
    "One often finds their destiny on the road taken to avoid it" - Master Ugway

  34. #34
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    When are Americans going to get over the Antiquated idea of supporting the "American" economy. That is like preserving one acre of dense forest growth and letting the stream that feeds it dry up. It cannot be done.The world is one giant economy now and it's time for the most capable nation to adapt.

    I do not see anyone pissing and moaning when cabinet makers go the CNC route to cut labor cost and increase productivity or when a grocery store puts in self check out lanes to cut your wait while still cutting back on the need for clerks. I guarantee these things cost America jobs. While we are at it let's address Netflix and Itunes. How many retail, shipping, manufacturing, packaging, and inventory jobs have they destroyed displaced? Yet, no one is screaming,"Buy CDs!".

    Seems to me that people arbitrarily choose what jobs are important to save, not based on any real economic value , but upon some notion of what things they would like to stamp 'Made in America' on.

    Our only real hope of maintianing jobs in America is to create new industries and find new markets in this new economy.
    Come along and ride on a fantastic voyage! Slide, slide,slippitty slide!

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  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny M
    Our only real hope of maintianing jobs in America is to create new industries and find new markets in this new economy.

    Thank god that at least a few people get this. The others are simply not living in reality if they think we're going to "keep manufacturing jobs".
    Last edited by Jayem; 04-04-2009 at 09:29 AM.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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    That's exactly another angle about it people don't see. Other countries have moved in and out of this, from agrarian economies to finance, manufacturing, intellectually based, etc. Sometimes they last more than our generations or lifetimes, unfortunately. What we're seeing is America moving from a manufacturing society to one that's based more in intellectual resources. What it takes is the people becoming adaptive, or at least teaching their kids that they won't get jobs unless they get the proper training growing up, simply put. Just because manufacturing jobs are gone, that doesn't mean there can't be expansion in other sectors, but of course, it can have casualties in the interim.

    However, America needs to make better stuff. The death of the auto industry from the 70's to now really messed things up for other industries as well. Hell, I even got laughed at once mentioning American bike frames as some of the best in theworld.

    It's also interesting to see the free passes given to European and Canadian manufacturers, but not to Asian ones. I'm just playing all angles because this isn't the easiest thing to categorize as A or B.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomsmoto
    how about buy from an american lbs in an american made store full of american employees who get their bikes sent in from the american shipping company who also has american employees?

    seriously, dont buy into that ridiculous crap. imported goods put TONS of money directly into the american economy and support american jobs.
    American shipping? You've got to be kidding. Long gone.
    "...the people get the government they deserve..."
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    Saying "American employees" gets dangerously close to xenophobia and racism. That should be qualified, really. If they are legal, paying taxes, etc, they are equal to Americans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    The only limitation on this statement is that we have a government that's wildly out of control on many levels, from town to federal. Many levels are raising taxes and that there is a sign of the government being out of control and too big...

    ...yet Americans are here, fighting over Cannondale and Dorel on a message board, rather than organizing protests for accountability and the shrinking of our government that has become a whale that has essentially beached itself due to its girth and inefficiency. The government needs to raise taxes to remain operational, not so much as to pay for the stimulus.

    We should be using the emotions and the energy here to demand accountability and demand the president follow through on his promises, rather than modify or bury them. This country was founded on making the people part of the process, but over time, government has become less transparent and more autonomous, like European governments we were trying not to be.
    THERE'S A REVOLUTION EVERY FOUR YEARS!

    I'd pay an extra $200 for an American frame, extra $50 for an American part, and I pay a lot for American service all on what I make with my $8/hr job after school. Regrettably these products just plain and simple don't exist.

    Wouldn't it be great to have representatives that represented us? (I'm in High school right now so yes the idealistic part is still there, but after living solo over seas, going through some pretty crazy **** in the Canadian wilderness, I'm by no means naive) This is something to work for - our government is totally out of control at this point. Check out what local governments have been handing out to Walmart, and what the Fed has been handing out to car manufacturers, insurance companies and everything in between - pretty frightening.

    But while the majority of America are apathetic, poorly educated, and not internationally aware it is really hard to make a change. Obama has been a celebrity so far, no doubt - but is he the president we need right now to shrink the government, increase transparency, and correct the trade deficit? I truly doubt it. He is an incredible orator and an eloquent leader, but so far what has he done? Implement taxes on (legally bonding) bonuses to executives on bailed out companies, bailed out the Detroit three, and talked a lot. Oh and putting another $878 billion on the government tab on top of the debt we are already in. As the next generation this is scary.

    So long as China / Taiwan are cheap the majority who are conscience of nothing but themselves will buy from China and Taiwan. That simple. Really hope to help change this in my lifetime. We need representatives in state, local and federal who come from middle class families and have had a middle class experience to represent this nation. We do not need more wealthy disconnected officials like Bush, Kerry, Clinton, (to name the most well known) and the list goes on and on and on.

    Protests do nothing. We have a revolution every 4 years.
    A medical student who wandered into Iowa

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    Really, for a 16 year old, you're incredibly aware of what's going on, and if I'm not interpreting incorrectly, not siding your questions and comments on a party basis, but what's right for the US.

    ...on top of that, you can read and write! Hell, better than most adults on this site, or on the internet, for that matter!

    However, I will disagree somewhat. When the government knows people are houding their ass, they will change. On one side of that, look at what happens when election or reelection time comes. The politicians and incumbents start throwing legislation and bills down for votes. If we didn't have that much capability to oversee things, as was intended, that would never be the case. It would be like Europe, where people really don't know, don't care, and just vote on a sort of track record based on what they sort of think. For example, I now live in the former East Germany. This place is filled with controls from top to bottom, and 22-25% unemployment. They still blame "certain groups" to make one think it's 1940. They fought the Soviet Socialist government, but voted for National Socialists to represent this state, based on the blame of certain groups taking everyone's jobs. Things won't change here, but they can and will change over there. People think the news is biased there, but it's way more transparent than we think. It just takes going to countries where the government controls you down to your personal life to see such things.

    Hell, Austria just had a revolution in their government and if people in the US knew or paid attention, they'd probably be pretty scared. However, there's no reason we can't have a real election and demand such things as legitimate elections between more than two people or parties.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikinfoolferlife
    American shipping? You've got to be kidding. Long gone.

    UPS, FedEX, rail, container, etc...

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    Thanks JerkChicken,

    I hope to put my skills to good use after I get out of school and have real world experience. 22% unemployment is huge! We're freaking out in the US over 7.2%...

    I'll let you know how it goes. This is important and something needs to be done.
    A medical student who wandered into Iowa

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by dan0
    UPS, FedEX, rail, container, etc...
    I was referring to shipping, in ships. Still some US air carriers, yes. But bikes come in foreign (did you know Hyundai is the largest manufacturer of containers?) containers on foreign carriers...
    "...the people get the government they deserve..."
    suum quique

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    Quote Originally Posted by lampy29
    Thanks JerkChicken,

    I hope to put my skills to good use after I get out of school and have real world experience. 22% unemployment is huge! We're freaking out in the US over 7.2%...

    I'll let you know how it goes. This is important and something needs to be done.
    Keep the grades and communications skills up and you'll do ok. You've seen the inability to read and write, I'm sure. It shouldn't be too hard for you to stand up above the rest, if only in that respect.

    And keep your interests up, too! You'll learn a lot through them!

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    lampy do you have a certain school in major in mind and list of schools you want to get into?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikinfoolferlife
    American shipping? You've got to be kidding. Long gone.
    what? is your local UPS completely ran out of the country?

    I was referring to shipping, in ships. Still some US air carriers, yes. But bikes come in foreign (did you know Hyundai is the largest manufacturer of containers?) containers on foreign carriers...
    .. who port at american docks with more american workers and blahblahbalhblahb. same thing. we have american companies on foreign soil doing commerce in the same manner too..

    you know what i meant man.. buying imported goods transfers tons of american money into american hands, and pays tax dollars. also employs a LOT of people. the largest employer of americans in this country sells mostly imported goods.

    .. think about it. its the future of commerce, absolutely nothing wrong with that either. you can live in the past and fail or find new opportunities.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomsmoto
    what? is your local UPS completely ran out of the country?


    .. who port at american docks with more american workers and blahblahbalhblahb. same thing. we have american companies on foreign soil doing commerce in the same manner too..

    you know what i meant man.. buying imported goods transfers tons of american money into american hands, and pays tax dollars. also employs a LOT of people. the largest employer of americans in this country sells mostly imported goods.

    .. think about it. its the future of commerce, absolutely nothing wrong with that either. you can live in the past and fail or find new opportunities.
    Oh don't even get me started on the f*cking ILWU. I was in the logistics business, am a licensed Customs broker...you're not telling me anything new
    "...the people get the government they deserve..."
    suum quique

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    Quote Originally Posted by lampy29
    We need representatives in state, local and federal who come from middle class families and have had a middle class experience to represent this nation. We do not need more wealthy disconnected officials like Bush, Kerry, Clinton, (to name the most well known) and the list goes on and on and on.
    bias? conflict of interest?

    the LAST thing i want is some moron in power with no experience, no education, and absolutely no qualifications at all making financial decisions.

    people who devote their lives to business, tend to know how it works. those same people tend to make money doing it. people who study law tend to grasp law better than joe blow the racist farmer who doesnt want "them damn mexicans!" plowing his field.

    we need to be hiring the most talented, most educated, most qualified people to run government. we dont need this bs "hes the guy i want to have a beer with!" system.

    you have EVERY opportunity to make millions upon millions of dollars in this country. all you have to do is go out and get it.

    plus your post rages of xenophobia and americanism. you know other people in other countrys are humans too right? what makes them worth less than americans? i have absolutely no problem what so ever lining the pockets of some mexican, taiwanese, or chinese factory worker. they're people too, and deserve a living wage. the major difference is that they've found a market thats actually in demand, and can be competitive at it instead of whining and demanding people buy their stuff for a loss.

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    Blahblahblahblah....

    If things were getting bad, there'd be rioting in the streets. If the proles are fat, happy and fed, they're not going to start a revolution of any kind.

    Obesity is the leading cause of death in America. My guess is we have a ways to go before the bullets start flying. And before they do, the masses need to starve long enough to loose all that excess poundage so they can actually run more than three blocks and fight effectively.

    If you think America's government has gotten too big or is in the process of unwinding, you really need to get a passport and travel a little. You simply have no idea how much worse things get before people actually consider toppling the status quo.

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    we have fat homeless people here

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by lampy29
    But while the majority of America are apathetic, poorly educated, and not internationally aware .
    Yeah, that's not much of a problem....
    "...the people get the government they deserve..."
    suum quique

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    [QUOTE=lampy29]THERE'S A REVOLUTION EVERY FOUR YEARS!

    I'd pay an extra $200 for an American frame, extra $50 for an American part, and I pay a lot for American service all on what I make with my $8/hr job after school.


    Talk to me 15 years from now when you have a mortgage, retirement planning, children in private schools and/or college, health insurance, and several other human beings that you are obligated to feed and clothe.

    I am sure at your age a few extra dollars means another fancy part or a good time, but for a responsible grown up the option to spend wantonly on luxuries usually is not there. We must trim our spending to make sure that we can pay for ALL of our needs not just our passions.

    Do you even realize that cheap foreign labor is what has made your lifestyle possible? Would your family have a $12,000 all American industry computer? Could you have that 50 inch plasma if it had an NYC wage attached to it?

    I applaud your socioeconomic awareness, but I must say that it seems as though you have latched onto a particular view point with out a full understanding of how things work and the factors that make our lives possible.
    Come along and ride on a fantastic voyage! Slide, slide,slippitty slide!

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    If we're talking historically, those numbers are not even close. Had the country not outsourced starting some decades ago, the economy would be extremely strong. Such countries that won on keeping many things at home are Switzerland, for example. Though they are in different areas, they protected many of their homeland manufacturing businesses, which includes watch manufacturing and precision tools as they graduated from an agrarian society to banking, insurance, manufacturing, and chemicals. Those industries are vigorously protected, and it paid off for their country.

    The US is well past that point, but we have significant resources, and had the US continued keeping things at home, answering the questions of how to maintain the strength of the economy and the nation, as opposed to answering to the few in the form of stockholders and corporate chairpeople, we would not be talking about this right now.

    ...and this discounts the problems with poorly made goods in the US that ruined the rep of American manufacturing as a whole.

    The argument in the post above also doesn't place any respect to relative income and buying power.

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    [Do you even realize that cheap foreign labor is what has made your lifestyle possible? Would your family have a $12,000 all American industry computer? Could you have that 50 inch plasma if it had an NYC wage attached to it?]

    Cheap foreign labor makes investors and CEO's lifestyles possible, it helps the rich get richer, it robs the U.S. Treasury of tax revenues. The excuse that it make products cheaper is just a justification to use slave labor to make stuff and sell it at enormous profits.

    Wake up people. We are saving a few buck on toys and selling our lives down the toilet.
    Happy Trails
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  55. #55
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    [QUOTE=Johnny M]
    Quote Originally Posted by lampy29
    THERE'S A REVOLUTION EVERY FOUR YEARS!

    I'd pay an extra $200 for an American frame, extra $50 for an American part, and I pay a lot for American service all on what I make with my $8/hr job after school.


    Talk to me 15 years from now when you have a mortgage, retirement planning, children in private schools and/or college, health insurance, and several other human beings that you are obligated to feed and clothe.

    I am sure at your age a few extra dollars means another fancy part or a good time, but for a responsible grown up the option to spend wantonly on luxuries usually is not there. We must trim our spending to make sure that we can pay for ALL of our needs not just our passions.

    Do you even realize that cheap foreign labor is what has made your lifestyle possible? Would your family have a $12,000 all American industry computer? Could you have that 50 inch plasma if it had an NYC wage attached to it?

    I applaud your socioeconomic awareness, but I must say that it seems as though you have latched onto a particular view point with out a full understanding of how things work and the factors that make our lives possible.
    Hey Lampy,
    Don't let this old guy fool you. I fit most of his prerequisites and yet I have a few hundo here or there that I can lavish on high priced US made goods (When I can find them).
    Age has little to do with it. I just happen to make good money and I have always lived within my means, and planned for the future.
    Adulthood doesn't mean poverty.
    CDT

  56. #56
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    [QUOTE=Johnny M]
    Quote Originally Posted by lampy29
    THERE'S A REVOLUTION EVERY FOUR YEARS!

    I'd pay an extra $200 for an American frame, extra $50 for an American part, and I pay a lot for American service all on what I make with my $8/hr job after school.


    Talk to me 15 years from now when you have a mortgage, retirement planning, children in private schools and/or college, health insurance, and several other human beings that you are obligated to feed and clothe.

    I am sure at your age a few extra dollars means another fancy part or a good time, but for a responsible grown up the option to spend wantonly on luxuries usually is not there. We must trim our spending to make sure that we can pay for ALL of our needs not just our passions.

    Do you even realize that cheap foreign labor is what has made your lifestyle possible? Would your family have a $12,000 all American industry computer? Could you have that 50 inch plasma if it had an NYC wage attached to it?

    I applaud your socioeconomic awareness, but I must say that it seems as though you have latched onto a particular view point with out a full understanding of how things work and the factors that make our lives possible.
    No - my family doesn't have large screen plasma TVs, a $12,00 computer. And no, a few dollars does not equal a new part - it comes out to another couple days of college I can afford. My bike is full Deore - would I love to upgrade? Yes. I'm setting aside some cash to do this, but by no means everything I earn.

    Yes, I understand that cheap labor supplies us with lower cost items, and that Americans become rich off their labor - and thus the owners make a windfall while these US profits do not benefit the lower class because they have fewer jobs - these have gone over seas - but have access to cheaper goods. Cheap labor overseas benefits the middle and upper class short term while in the long run undermining our economy.


    Thank you jollybeggar for that ounce of reality.
    A medical student who wandered into Iowa

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deme Moore
    Blahblahblahblah....
    If you think America's government has gotten too big or is in the process of unwinding, you really need to get a passport and travel a little. You simply have no idea how much worse things get before people actually consider toppling the status quo.
    I've spent a good amount of time in a poor South American and European countries. I've seen that things are much worse over there. I have friends in Palestine, Lebanon, Egypt, Israel, Jordan, Germany, Spain all around the world. I know their lives are equal to an American. So I have a passport and I have traveled a lot.

    In America, because we live well right now does not mean that complacency is a safe option. Money is pouring out of the country to pay for cheaper goods, our federal government is adding dangerously to national debt, and many states are in dangerous financial situations. It's like the concept of a frog being boiled.
    A medical student who wandered into Iowa

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    [QUOTE=lampy29]
    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny M

    No - my family doesn't have large screen plasma TVs, a $12,00 computer. And no, a few dollars does not equal a new part - it comes out to another couple days of college I can afford. My bike is full Deore - would I love to upgrade? Yes. I'm setting aside some cash to do this, but by no means everything I earn.

    Yes, I understand that cheap labor supplies us with lower cost items, and that Americans become rich off their labor - and thus the owners make a windfall while these US profits do not benefit the lower class because they have fewer jobs - these have gone over seas - but have access to cheaper goods. Cheap labor overseas benefits the middle and upper class short term while in the long run undermining our economy.


    Thank you jollybeggar for that ounce of reality.
    $12000 computer? you can buy a laptop for $400 and a desktop for even cheaper, thanks to offshore manufacturing
    who do you think benifits from lower prices? Wallmart & target are booming right now
    most of the jobs that went overseas were lower paying to begin with, just because someone is poor doesnt mean they are stupid, if you have any brains you can go to school and get a "better" paying job. in fact , if youre poor its easier to get in because the middle class has to arrange their own financing, the poor get grants and tax money
    why do you want to keep low paying manufacturing jobs?
    I work in construction and we cant get enough Americans who want to learn any trades. There are plenty of good paying jobs available

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    walmart is the largest AMERICAN employer in the country. local walmarts absolutely flood their local economy with sales and property tax revenue, not to mention provide jobs for locals (not many people commuting in to work walmarts ) who buy more local stuff and pay rent for that area.

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    1) what is so wrong with being rich or wanting to be? There are several posts in this thread targeting wealthy people as being bad. Saying things like "the rich get richer" is nothing more than class envy. Personally I hope to be rich someday and build my company to offer jobs to lots of people!

    2) A large part of the jobs that have gone overseas are jobs that A) people feel are beneath them, or B) in fields that unions would cause large hardships for.

    Make no mistake about it, unions have played a huge part in the downfall of major American manufacturing companies such as GM. Can you imagine what the cost of bikes would go up to if they were not only manufactured in the US but had to cover all of the bloated benefits and salaries of union laborers?

    Don't misunderstand, I am a patriot and many times I will go the extra mile to support American made products so long as I can afford it. What I don't like to do is pay money to support labor unions, their bloated muscle and crooked management.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tomsmoto
    walmart is the largest AMERICAN employer in the country. local walmarts absolutely flood their local economy with sales and property tax revenue, not to mention provide jobs for locals (not many people commuting in to work walmarts ) who buy more local stuff and pay rent for that area.
    Trying to figure out if this is a joke. Of course no one is going to commute to walmart. They pay **** wages. Why drive 40 miles to walmart if your going to get 30 hours @$8/hr?
    $240 a week, pre-tax - $50 net for gas alone..... not many people commuting in to work walmarts der.
    And as far as "floodling" local economies, let's not forget some of those locales provide all kinds of incentives to get them there in the first place. Hm, could it be because they are desperate for ANY kind of employers, since MFG'ing jobs have dried up?
    CDT

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    Quote Originally Posted by tomsmoto
    walmart is the largest AMERICAN employer in the country. local walmarts absolutely flood their local economy with sales and property tax revenue, not to mention provide jobs for locals (not many people commuting in to work walmarts ) who buy more local stuff and pay rent for that area.
    They also have an unfortunate habit of using local tax resources beyond that of most other employers...not to mention their reliance on foreign made products. They don't flood any sort of tax revenue, but rather soak it up IMHO.
    "...the people get the government they deserve..."
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    Hm, could it be because they are desperate for ANY kind of employers, since MFG'ing jobs have dried up?
    CDT
    sure, maybe.. makes sense that people working one junk job lose it and move to another junk job.

    They also have an unfortunate habit of using local tax resources beyond that of most other employers...not to mention their reliance on foreign made products. They don't flood any sort of tax revenue, but rather soak it up IMHO.
    you cant dodge sales tax. you cant dodge employee payroll.

    id like to see you back up that walmart takes in more than they put out..

    but still, thats glazing over the point. thats fluffing up protectionism. my point is that people who are smart, and want to make money, have AMAZING opportunities in the united states.. 100k, 200k, 500k, multi million dollar salaries, right this very second, are up for grabs. you just have to apply yourself and take them.. but some people want to fight to keep antiquated jobs instead of being innovative and moving forward? not just that, but they want to fight to keep those jobs at my expense? no way.

    why should i support dead industries? why should i pay extra for people to remain in obsolete jobs?

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomsmoto
    sure, maybe.. makes sense that people working one junk job lose it and move to another junk job.


    you cant dodge sales tax. you cant dodge employee payroll.

    id like to see you back up that walmart takes in more than they put out..

    Oh, how about demanding lower costs for their presence in terms of various taxation, no charge for access infrastructure, other tax breaks along those lines. Payroll taxes do nothing for localities generally, and the businesses they displace likely create a negative tax picture at the local level. Sales tax, at least in California, generally creates a state benefit, not a local one (not sure how that works elsewhere). Not to say they're not a picture of the future under a global economy, just that they're not necessarily good for a local economy. I'd bet overall tax picture ain't so rosy in established economies Walmart moved into as compared to expanding sh*tf*ck suburban areas.

    Cheaper goods is all the average consumer looks for, same reason we outsourced in the first place. It's called shooting yourself in the balls. There has been no successful economy in the capitalistic world that doesn't excel in exporting, rather than importing. A consumer based economy was a fantasy from the Republicans to explain their support of their major benefactors, not to say the Democrats didn't jump on board either...just who was first in foisting the stupid idea in the first place.
    "...the people get the government they deserve..."
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    not talking about payroll tax.. talking about payroll itself. that money goes somewhere. for most people that tends to be locally spent.

    i agree with a lot of what you say.. but still, its wandering from the original topic. theres no reason for protectionism of dead industries.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tomsmoto
    not talking about payroll tax.. talking about payroll itself. that money goes somewhere. for most people that tends to be locally spent.

    i agree with a lot of what you say.. but still, its wandering from the original topic. theres no reason for protectionism of dead industries.
    see heres the problem, your making claims, and your not providing the evidence. Show me how much wally marts PUMP into local economies.
    Show me where I wanted protectionism.
    Cdale makes $20M on $200M sales. It is not failing, not facing bankruptcy.
    They are moving not out of economic pressure, but out of greed. Its not some kinda smart business move to save money for a FAILING business...
    CDT

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    Quote Originally Posted by CdaleTony
    see heres the problem, your making claims, and your not providing the evidence. Show me how much wally marts PUMP into local economies.
    Show me where I wanted protectionism.
    Cdale makes $20M on $200M sales. It is not failing, not facing bankruptcy.
    They are moving not out of economic pressure, but out of greed. Its not some kinda smart business move to save money for a FAILING business...
    CDT
    I guess if you want to tout them as a US "success", feel free. But the business decisions are now being made by a far different group of suits than the original Cannodale (who made less than ideal business decisions that forced them to go bankrupt in 2003).

    As you know and since somebody referred to it earlier in the thread, they are moving all manufacturing from Bedford, PA to Taiwan. Nearly 200 of the current 300 employees will be cut from the Bedford location by 2010 as a result of this shift.

    SportsOneSource Media Posted: 4/2/2009

    Cycling Sports Group (formerly the Cannondale Sports Group) plans to consolidate all North American product development, marketing and business management functions for the four cycling brands Cannondale, Schwinn, GT and Mongoose to Bethel, CT, said Dorel Industries in a press release this week. Bike frame manufacturing will shift from the Bedford, PA location to the new Taichung, Taiwan CSG location. Nearly 200 of the current 300 employees will be cut from the Bedford location by 2010 as a result of this shift.

    CSG plans to focus its existing Bedford operations on final bicycle and Headshok assembly, CNC machining, testing and quality control, bicycle warranty repair, inside sales/service, distribution and customer support/administration.
    --------------------

    Pretty much like all successful bike companies these days. It's not a bad thing - it's a business model that works in this global economy. There is excellent work being done in Taiwan and this is not a "bad" thing.

    Hey, at least the customer service will remain in the US.

    BB

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    Quote Originally Posted by CdaleTony
    see heres the problem, your making claims, and your not providing the evidence. Show me how much wally marts PUMP into local economies.
    Show me where I wanted protectionism.
    Cdale makes $20M on $200M sales. It is not failing, not facing bankruptcy.
    They are moving not out of economic pressure, but out of greed. Its not some kinda smart business move to save money for a FAILING business...
    CDT
    .. are you suggesting that companies wait until they're failing before they make financial moves? no wonder you dont get it.

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    [QUOTE=dan0]
    Quote Originally Posted by lampy29

    $12000 computer? you can buy a laptop for $400 and a desktop for even cheaper, thanks to offshore manufacturing
    who do you think benifits from lower prices? Wallmart & target are booming right now
    most of the jobs that went overseas were lower paying to begin with, just because someone is poor doesnt mean they are stupid, if you have any brains you can go to school and get a "better" paying job. in fact , if youre poor its easier to get in because the middle class has to arrange their own financing, the poor get grants and tax money
    why do you want to keep low paying manufacturing jobs?
    I work in construction and we cant get enough Americans who want to learn any trades. There are plenty of good paying jobs available
    Most of the jobs that went overseas were lower paying, to begin with. Now we're seeing the engineering, design, and manufacturing jobs move overseas too. Those are not $6/hr jobs. What jobs are 'safe' to outsourcing? Waste removal, teaching, construction, health and food services... what else? Seriously. We were fed the line that only the jobs we didn't want would dissaper, and we believed it, until it was proven wrong.

    IT, Engineering, and Design work is normally something that people go to school to learn, something that was supposed to be 'safe' because they were jobs that were based on knowledge and ideas. I've seen engineering work move overseas, and seen publishing work offered there too. I remember hearing that those were the jobs we were 'allowed' to be ours in return for letting the 'lesser' jobs go.

    I want to keep a good chunk of jobs stateside to keep a solid tax base, to keep a manufacturing base that will allow us to manufacture in a crisis (and to reduce dependancy on - take your pick, oil, natural disasters, governments we don't agree with, etc.)

    We've had corporations racing to the bottom for years. It hasn't gotten better. We reward them for it too. We reward Wal-Mart for their cheap prices, while they demand their suppliers produce goods in China. We reward Wal-Street for cutting corners - how many auto execs thought it was a good idea to move their factories overseas (They've already determined that Mexico is too expensive because the standard of living will raise from better jobs.). I've heard of parts runs that had to be rejected, then re-run, and OVERNITED from China to make sure the line didn't shut down. Something that was less likely to happen stateside, and something much quicker, and cheaper to fix, if it did happen stateside. Just one time for that to happen would erase months, if not years of savings when the additional shipping costs and time were factored in.

    We are tangled up in treaties, the WTO, and have to make sure we are not writing protectionist law, but we are still having to deal with protectionism on other sides.

    As mentioned elsewhere in the thread - the race to the bottom is being done in search for the last penny of every dollar, and it's normally done by the people in the upper offices. I have no issue with the welder in Tiwan who's doing the same job that was done in PA or WI. I do have issue with the mentality that made it necessary for us to put the job there, and the reasons why it's cheaper. We now call that those who profited off of the backs of the people who worked for them were Robber Barons, but we only worry about that if they did it to people in OUR country. If GM or GE or Shimano made their profit because they produced in areas were people made a dollar a day, and polluted the entire countryside, are they any different? Does it really matter if that place was in the mid-west or in Asia?

    It won't be long before companies decide that Asia is too expensive too, and that Africa is the place to be. What happens in 20 years, after that is played out too, and skills and wages start rising there too. Where will corporate America (and Europe, and even Asia) turn next?

    The complaints when the textiles moved overseas were not that loud, and when our electronics moved overseas, it still wasn't a big deal. We're just now waking up that in the quest to find that last penny, we're finding that a large number of those jobs that used to make those goods are gone, and we have a lot fewer people who can afford to buy the things they used to make.

    And the reason I'm pissed isn't because it's just one more company moving a hundred or two hundred jobs overseas. It's because Dorel isn't doing anything different, anything unexpected. It's because it has become business as normal.

    There should be pride in being self sustaining, and in doing something yourself, as good, and better, than those around you. I don't dismiss those who do good work elsewhere, but I think it's good to have craftsmen here too.

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    "The race to the bottom" is being made with respect to keeping money in the hands of the few, the shareholders and the executives of corporations. It's not a conspiracy theory like those 9/11 conspiracy theorists want people to believe, and not a conspiracy against bankers to malign them, as they want people to think. It's fact. Once money goes into the hands of corporations, it's irreversibly lost, in many respects, and one of the things that let to the collapse was the fact that the regulators were unable to find where the money went because the structures are very complicated. Essentially, the money goes into the corporation, and then is lost, used, distributed, and if the company even decides to give dividends, they are small. Many rely on the stock value instead of an actual dividend for shareholders. The rest, as we've seen, goes to funding the compensation of executives, whether the company does ok or not.

    What we're seeing is Trickle Down economics, with the bail outs that no one can figure out who is receiving, despite suits for disclosure. Trickle Down is exactly why people didn't want McCain, among other reasons, and that's what we have. PLus the lack of anything that came out of the G20 summit, as I prediced. They did come to a last minute agreement to throw 1 trillion more of our collective money to the IMF to fund developing countries while we're suffering!

    The government has become a joke and really, no one is to blame but us for letting it happen because we can't be bothered until it's too late and they become whales.

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    I just moved my business from Philadelphia, PA to Wilmington, DE. Delaware will not charge me 8% sales tax on my raw materials or charge me a business privilege tax(wtf).
    I can also hire employees for probably 15% less. The Philly economy has lost a few jobs along with the payroll taxes that go with them, along with approxiately 6-8 K in sales taxes annually on my raw materials.

    This is all money that I, the investor and business person, will keep. My family will be that much more secure and have a better standard of living. A good chunk of my savings will no doubt find its way back into our economy.

    By many of your arguments I should have stayed put and decided that it was okay to make less money, while supporting an economy that wasn't the best for my business.
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    [QUOTE=dan0][QUOTE=lampy29]

    $ if youre poor its easier to get in because the middle class has to arrange their own financing, the poor get grants and tax money

    This statement is pretty silly. There is nothing "easier" about being poor. Trust me , I know.
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    It's a downward spiral for sure, and scary to think how it will end up, the worst part about sending jobs overseas (aside from draining the US of jobs and a healthy base for the economy) is how American consumers have voted with their wallets that they want the cheapest price available without regard for working conditions or the environmental damage that will result from the item being manufactured in China, Taiwan, Vietnam, etc.

    Protections on child labor in the US and Europe (yes, we have sweatshops), environmental controls, hour and job restrictions for workers 16-18, and minimum wage have made American and European manufacturing non viable because consumers have shown that they do not value paying human beings a wage they can live a dignified life on, or providing basic environmental protections. While nations that provide cheap labor do not protect their workers or the environment and consumers are apathetic to these factors the US and Europe will lose.

    We're paying people into poverty the world over while domestic CEOs become richer. Recently the US has adopted a wealth distribution pattern similar to that of Saudi Arabia, Mexico and Venezuela. The poor are getting poorer, the business owners are taking away their jobs and make a windfall on the difference. There truly should be shame in this.
    A medical student who wandered into Iowa

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    Wow Lampy, you're quite the idealist! Is this what they teach in school now? Poor people are poor because evil CEOs take all the money? Are you saying that there is a finite amount of money in the world to go around and it should be distributed evenly? Sorry, but that's just not true.

    There are many reasons that people in the US, as well as around the world, are poor, and it has very little to do with the evil money grubbing CEOs (who are the people who make jobs by the way). The majority of the people in the United States that are poor are that way by choice. They choose to screw around in their childhood, drop out of high school, spend their time doing drugs instead of going to college or trade school. Then they complain that they are poor and that they should be paid a "living wage" for a job that requires no more skill than breathing. Jobs at Wal-Mart and McDonald's were never meant to be used as a means to support a family. Now, however, the idiots of this country try to force the corporations to pay them more through government intervention. With government intervention comes additional costs, and then we say goodbye to more jobs. The loss of jobs in this country is less related to jobs going overseas than it is businesses in this country are under fire for trying to make a profit. If the regulations become too much, more and more companies will fold, and more jobs will be lost.

    In 3rd world countries the reasons for poverty can be attributed to other things. Governments who keep the wealth for themselves while the people of the country work to keep the money flowing. All the while saying how glorious there style of government is while their people are starving. The US does not put these people in place, and when we try to liberate people from these circumstances, we are again evil!

    Right now it very sheik around the world to hate America and talk bad about us. In reality, our country provides more for the other nations on this planet in the form of aid, food, and security than anyone else. If I were the president, I'd stop the aid to countries who professed their hate for us while taking cargo loads of grain and medical supplies. It's a sure bet I'll never be president!

  75. #75
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    [QUOTE=jayhawk261]1-302-384-5654

    The majority of the people in the United States that are poor are that way by choice. They choose to screw around in their childhood, drop out of high school, spend their time doing drugs instead of going to college or trade school.


    So if one chooses not to do these things prosperity is guaranteed? This is an example of the kind of oversimplified reasoning that keeps our government and our society from getting anything positive done. How can complex problems be fixed when people want to accept simple explanations? I might as well try to debug my computer with a screwdriver.
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    I don't agree with you that the poor in the US are poor because of choice. Jobs suited to their talent level / amount of work they will do have been moved to other countries and the business owner has benefited enormously because all of the sudden he's making a comparable product for much less. And what about the people who used to work in his factory? In the past manufacturing jobs must have seemed quite stable so the pressure to work hard in school for poor families in this period wouldn't have been as great as it is now - there always was the safety net of a factory job.

    However because of the very rapid shift in the US from manufacturing to IT and other technology driven endeavors (about when China and other nations now used for cheap labor stabilized opening up cheaper manufacturing options) put business owners in a position to shift manufacturing to these other nations with a profit margin impossible if these goods were made in the USA. So the rich got richer. Those who had worked in the closed factories were years behind the middle and upper class who didn't saw a factory job as a viable option and had instead gone on to learn trades and open business adapted to these new opportunities. So the poor got poorer as they couldn't assimilate to the climate quickly enough.

    EDIT: this song by Springsteen says it nicely. Worth listening to.

    <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/BpHCwKGu8eg&hl=es&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/BpHCwKGu8eg&hl=es&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>


    And guess what, these new venues created by the internet opened enormous opportunities to make money, but the poor didn't have the opportunity to invest. So they missed out because they didn't have the means to take advantage of opportunity, even if they did see it. The rich were in a good position so guess what? The rich / poor divide widens!

    It's really not simple Jayhawk.

    What they teach in school is total benign crap btw, and yes I am an American citizen. I'm not bashing the USA - I think it's the greatest place to live, even though it does have problems.
    Last edited by lampy29; 04-08-2009 at 02:54 AM. Reason: add video
    A medical student who wandered into Iowa

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    [QUOTE=Johnny M]
    Quote Originally Posted by jayhawk261
    1-302-384-5654

    The majority of the people in the United States that are poor are that way by choice. They choose to screw around in their childhood, drop out of high school, spend their time doing drugs instead of going to college or trade school.


    So if one chooses not to do these things prosperity is guaranteed? This is an example of the kind of oversimplified reasoning that keeps our government and our society from getting anything positive done. How can complex problems be fixed when people want to accept simple explanations? I might as well try to debug my computer with a screwdriver.
    You are assuming statements are implied that I did not make. Nothing is guaranteed in this life, ever! Over simplified or not, the basic fact is that if one works hard to become the best he/she can be at whatever they choose to do, they have GREATLY improved chances at being successful. I can't believe that I have to explain this to anyone. I know you understand it, but you can't bring yourself to say it.

    In our society, at least up until recent history, the people who have worked the hardest have been able to enjoy the rewards of their labor. In the last 20 years or so, there has been a strong push by politicians with a socialist agenda to create a divide between the haves and have nots. Failed social policies and programs along with throwing the blame around has worked remarkably well to create an atmosphere of hate for those that work hard and succeed. What should be happening is that the people who succeed should be seen as setting an example of what can be had in this country if only you're willing to do the work. It is stupefying for me to think that you believe that all of the problems are caused by the people who succeed in this land.

    Most of the arguments on this thread are based on an incorrect belief that ALL business owners are ruthless lazy people who were born to money and given their positions. They continue to grow their empires on the backs of the poor and indigent peoples who have no choice but to schlep to a job at a very low wage because they weren't born into money. This is such socialistic hogwash I can hardly believe what I am reading. No one ever wants to take responsibility for themselves any more. It is always someone else's fault! Poor little me, I am poor because the head of a corporation made a prudent business move and did some outsourcing. Never mind that without those moves, every job in the company could be lost when they have to shut their doors due to not looking ahead and identifying ways to overcome upcoming financial hardships.

    There is more opportunity in the United States of America than anywhere else on the globe, and yet for some reason there is a fair number of people who want to sit around and be mad at people who have worked hard rather than work hard themselves. Class envy will do NOTHING to put money in a poor person's wallet. You want jobs? Give these companies incentives to keep the jobs here. Make it so that there is no advantage to sending the work overseas. Allow companies to pay laborers what laborers are worth, not what the unions demand to fill their union boss's pockets. And, let's not forget that over 90% of the available workforce in this country is still employed. Sometimes you have to look at the glass half full ( or 90%+ full).

  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by lampy29
    I don't agree with you that the poor in the US are poor because of choice. Jobs suited to their talent level / amount of work they will do have been moved to other countries and the business owner has benefited enormously because all of the sudden he's making a comparable product for much less. And what about the people who used to work in his factory? In the past manufacturing jobs must have seemed quite stable so the pressure to work hard in school for poor families in this period wouldn't have been as great as it is now - there always was the safety net of a factory job.

    However because of the very rapid shift in the US from manufacturing to IT and other technology driven endeavors (about when China and other nations now used for cheap labor stabilized opening up cheaper manufacturing options) put business owners in a position to shift manufacturing to these other nations with a profit margin impossible if these goods were made in the USA. So the rich got richer. Those who had worked in the closed factories were years behind the middle and upper class who didn't saw a factory job as a viable option and had instead gone on to learn trades and open business adapted to these new opportunities. So the poor got poorer as they couldn't assimilate to the climate quickly enough.

    And guess what, these new venues created by the internet opened enormous opportunities to make money, but the poor didn't have the opportunity to invest. So they missed out because they didn't have the means to take advantage of opportunity, even if they did see it. The rich were in a good position so guess what? The rich / poor divide widens!

    It's really not simple Jayhawk.

    What they teach in school is total benign crap btw, and yes I am an American citizen. I'm not bashing the USA - I think it's the greatest place to live, even though it does have problems.
    Whether you agree with me or not, that doesn't mean I'm incorrect. Somehow you are tied up in the thought that it is an even sum game. That there is only so much money to go around, and if the rich people get a bigger slice of the pie, then that will leave less for the poor. That is so wrong I don't even know how to respond to it. It is the culmination of years of socialists telling you that everyone has to be equal and fair. Guess what, nowhere in the constitution of the US does it say that all people have equality of outcome. It says that we all have equality of opportunity. That's it. What people choose to do with their opportunity is up to them. If they squander it, it's a sure bet they won't be successful. As always, there are exceptions. Whether you believe it or not, the majority of people who are poor DO choose that lifestyle. There are some who are poor through no fault of their own even though they have done all the right things. It happens sometimes unfortunately. But the basic fact is that (as I said in my last post) over 90% of the available workforce in this country is employed and working. If people are poor only because manufacturing companies have shipped jobs overseas, don't you think there would be a much larger amount of unemployed people?

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    [QUOTE=jayhawk261][QUOTE=Johnny M]


    In our society, at least up until recent history, the people who have worked the hardest have been able to enjoy the rewards of their labor.

    Are we both talking about the same nation? I love my country, but I know its greatness was built upon the backs of slaves and and in the pre-union sweatshops. What we are seeing now is that American capitalism cannot be sustained without cheap labor and under to much regulation. Since our society will no longer accept slavery, unfair treatment of workers, or general industrial misbehavior, our modern day robber barons are going to places where American Capitalism still works the way it was designed.
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    I don't even know what to say to that. those things happened long before the US became a financial powerhouse and a world superpower and have absolutely nothing to do with capitalism and our economy today.

    I know your answer, but what do you believe needs to happen in order to keep manufacturing jobs in the US? Government regulation? Government mandated maximum salaries? Government stipulation of business day to day decisions? Once the government steps in and tells companies who they have to hire and how much they have to pay, what happens when the company is no longer economically viable? More stimulus? More taxpayer money thrust into companies to keep them moving even though they should be out of business?

    I can't express how far apart you and I are on this issue. It isn't possible. You are anti-capitalism, and pro socialism. You believe the government should provide for your needs. I believe in individual responsibility. I look for solutions when I have problems. I hope and pray that the government will do nothing more than get out of the way and let the economy happen.

  81. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by jayhawk261
    I don't even know what to say to that. those things happened long before the US became a financial powerhouse and a world superpower and have absolutely nothing to do with capitalism and our economy today.

    I know your answer, but what do you believe needs to happen in order to keep manufacturing jobs in the US? Government regulation? Government mandated maximum salaries? Government stipulation of business day to day decisions? Once the government steps in and tells companies who they have to hire and how much they have to pay, what happens when the company is no longer economically viable? More stimulus? More taxpayer money thrust into companies to keep them moving even though they should be out of business?

    I can't express how far apart you and I are on this issue. It isn't possible. You are anti-capitalism, and pro socialism. You believe the government should provide for your needs. I believe in individual responsibility. I look for solutions when I have problems. I hope and pray that the government will do nothing more than get out of the way and let the economy happen.
    And the nation having been built on the backs of domestic slaves in the past is different from the US getting rich off the back of international slavery in the present? I'm sure you know the clothes you're wearing right now were made in a sweatshop.

    I am absolutely pro capitalism - I am trying to show that the poor are poor not only because they do not work as hard and are not as smart (cut throat as well?) as the more affluent in our society but because of other factors as well (it is possible to escape poverty in the US with hard work through our free education system) and that exporting jobs is undermining our economy. Capitalism results in taking advantage of opportunity, and that opportunity right now is taking jobs away from the domestic poor, and the result is that they are having difficulty adapting making them poorer and making the wealthy richer.

    The individual is absolutely responsible for themselves. The free health care system in Europe has me boggled. The government should do no more than maintain the peace and infrastructure. It has no more responsibility- at this point it has become a whale.

    To keep manufacturing jobs in the US - countries providing cheap labor would need to adopt similar regulations and rules mandating minimum wage, and other worker protections as we have in the US. Regrettably, this would result in huge loss for the US as the factories are overseas at this point. These regulations would improve quality of life for its workers, but the cost of goods would increase dramatically, and with no (or little) economic gain for the US we would be buying the goods at a higher price, business owners would lose a chunk of their profit margin, but at least we would have a chance for domestic manufacturing to continue. Take away government worker protections and you have a situation like you find in 'Grapes of Wrath.'

    This would also result in huge inflation - an equal amount of goods produced but all of a sudden everyone has more money. It just doesn't work. When everyone has money the system would fall apart.

    Slavery at some level has always been a part of history and will continue so long as money holds more sway than respect for human dignity. That is the harsh reality. There are always losers.
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    Well, you guys might be right. Perhaps the world will be much better off with America as a bunch of incapable but slick middle-managers selling non-tangibles to each other. Won't that be precious. Hard work, actually building real things, with your hands, is for poor people and suckers. Dirty people. Foreigners. Who needs a balanced country capable of producing goods & services? Let's see just how lopsided we can get. Maybe China will build us some nice jetfighters and tanks to equip our military with too. Or maybe that's again too blue-collar, too hands-on. Perhaps as the priviledged nation of cerebral citizens, we'll just be too cool, to smart, for anyone to dare defy...

    I'll do my part by laying off all our employees tomorrow, ceasing domestic production, sending 30mil next year to china instead of spending it here. I'll use the very accounting practices I've sworn I don't even want to hear about over the years, because while it costs us a bit, it's still cheaper than paying taxes. In addition, we won't purchase 9 million in machinery or other services. We will spend it on advertising instead. ...in Europe and Asia. ...where there's three times the demand for our products than here anyway, and they're actually willing to pay for quality. I'll personally make enough the first year to retire in the Caymans. Not officially, of course, or I'd have to pay taxes as well. Taxes are for the poor, who can't afford better accountants. Oh but we'll hire a couple $7/hr high school dropouts (exploitation & cheap labor is the American way, right?) to ship boxes. That'll even everything out. Ahem, and I'll do it all for the good of the country.

    Realistically, America will very soon be neither worth the trouble of buying from or selling to anymore. Then what will a nation of overeducated and unskilled Americans do? Bleed money (redistribute wealth (gasp!)) to the poorer nations you are dependent upon, until the same gigantic lump of Old Money that came here from Europe over the last few hundred years & made our country rich (& still comprises the vast majority of the "nations wealth"), identifies a country with a better balance of safety/profitability, and to there it will go. On to yet another in a long line of homes to turn empire, until that country too scews the pooch and becomes too volatile. Then you all will come to know just how little money and skills you actually have, and what bondage means.

    Since I actually need none of what I have, and already give most of it away, I care less and less each day about the struggles of poor upper-middle class Americans who just can't feed their greed fast enough. Live like kings, and all they do is complain. Still, it's at least a little sad to see where this country was and where it was going just a generation ago, to see where it is today, and to see you all so eager to do it to yourselves for a little instant gratification.

    It's not about protectionism. Since politics dorks have to compartmentalize everything with an ism, it's about balance-ism. Balance works, but is hard to acheive. Imbalance leads to our current situation and worse. Going from balanced to imbalanced requires some doing. But, you're all doin it, one dollar at a time.

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    if we cant offer anything competitive and marketable, maybe the american experiment failed? you're on a wild, unfounded tangent not backed by anything.

    the MARKET doesnt want overpriced goods when it can buy the exact same thing for less. that means we need smarter businesses selling smarter goods. that doesnt mean we need to force people to buy things to save jobs. that doesnt mean if we outsource things that we're all going to middle management. that just means those who innovate will profit, just like it should be.

    my job is providing skilled labor, at a VERY VERY high cost. $165 an hour.. average 2.5 hours per job, average 15 hours a day. my job cant be out sourced, my job is necessary, in demand, widespread and not easy to learn or master. you're barking up the wrong tree with your silly argument, lots of us know the value of hard work, of providing goods and services.. the difference is some of us understand how to provide things people actually want.
    I don't agree with you that the poor in the US are poor because of choice.
    well.. you're wrong. they are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tomsmoto
    if we cant offer anything competitive and marketable, maybe the american experiment failed? you're on a wild, unfounded tangent not backed by anything.

    the MARKET doesnt want overpriced goods when it can buy the exact same thing for less. that means we need smarter businesses selling smarter goods. that doesnt mean we need to force people to buy things to save jobs. that doesnt mean if we outsource things that we're all going to middle management. that just means those who innovate will profit, just like it should be.

    my job is providing skilled labor, at a VERY VERY high cost. $165 an hour.. average 2.5 hours per job, average 15 hours a day. my job cant be out sourced, my job is necessary, in demand, widespread and not easy to learn or master. you're barking up the wrong tree with your silly argument, lots of us know the value of hard work, of providing goods and services.. the difference is some of us understand how to provide things people actually want.

    well.. you're wrong. they are.


    Thank you! I'm glad somebody gets it!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by tomsmoto
    well.. you're wrong. they are.
    So, in your opinion, there's a livable amount of money for every person in the country or world, and persons not getting their share of it is simply the result of thier choosing not to? ...and a person taking more than this fraction doesn't take from someone else? That money comes from... a magical money tree? Jesus?

    Or have you not heard, that most people who start businesses lose them within 3 years, and most people who start successful ones have lost more than two before. So on this account, all these people who chose to have money but didn't get it and lost everything, simply cease to exist in your world? ...until they do? I sincerely hope, at the risk of your own existential crisis, that your business survives this recession.

    Or is it that there is simply a squeeze on the amount of money actually in circulation, and those of us making a hundred times what we need do so while taking away from someone else, which all keeps everyone racing along clawing and tearing each others eyes out by design? It's wild, unruly evolution, where there is only cause and effect, and nothing is guaranteed. Those who are fit and lucky, survive, those who are fit might, and those who are not fit, won't, with a minority of cases overlapping over each. If you are not fit, for any of a million reasons, you do not survive. It's by design. You do not get to believe in and worship a free market without also worshipping its very high cost in lives.

    The beauty of Capitalism is seen through the eyes of fortunate and the complacent. It both eats itself and chokes itself simultaneously, in a delicate balance. For the few of us in between, life is good. Get too close to either edge though, and you'll feel it. Those who have not felt it, do well for themselves to not boast of their inexperience.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HotBlack
    So, in your opinion, there's a livable amount of money for every person in the country or world, and persons not getting their share of it is simply the result of thier choosing not to? ...and a person taking more than this fraction doesn't take from someone else? That money comes from... a magical money tree? Jesus?
    hilarious, but go ahead and try to find a quote of me saying anything even remotely close to that.

    if you're POOR and STARVING in the united states, its your fault. mcdonalds is always hiring. someone always needs some **** shoveled. theres always a toilet to scrub. i didnt say and never meant that theres a 500k salary waiting for everyone who wants to half ass it and has no skills. i said theres a minimum wage job that'll get some bills paid and feed you for everyone in this country.

    if you're genuinely poor here, its 99% of the time because you gave up even trying. i saw a amputee with just one working arm (no legs, no other arm), albeit cut off at the elbow with a mechanical hook tearing tickets at the movie theatre a week ago.. and you're going to try to tell me for a second fully functional intact people cant find a job?

    then again people have no concept of "poor" in this country. true poverty is damn near unheard of. like i said earlier, we have fat homeless people here
    Or have you not heard, that most people who start businesses lose them within 3 years,
    where on earth did you get the impression that i think people should start their own businesses? starting a small business is the best way to work yourself to death for a few years and end up poorer than when you started. it works for some people, its a huge risk, its also absolutely not the only way to make a living.
    I sincerely hope, at the risk of your own existential crisis, that your business survives this recession.
    im booming! making more money now than i ever have in my entire life.

    oh i also work 4 days a week.. and none of those 4 days are weekends. i busted my ass to get here.. and like i said earlier, if/when i even get the impression this market will fail, ill bail and find another similar job that pays me well.. and ill bust my ass to succeed in that.

    why should i bust my ass, put in effort, make a smart career choice to give my paycheck to people who dont want to innovate and drag dead industries along?

    Or is it that there is simply a squeeze on the amount of money actually in circulation, and those of us making a hundred times what we need do so while taking away from someone else, which all keeps everyone racing along clawing and tearing each others eyes out by design?
    you'd be a great candidate for another soviet russia, comrade! hate the rich and successful, they're evil and stealing YOUR money!

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    greed drives people to get phd's. greed drives people to open up new businesses. greed drives people to work harder for that promotion, to put in the extra effort to get what they want. a little greed is a strong motivator.

    jealousy/envy is what drives people to want what other people have without working for it themselves. its the most disgusting human trait.

    why ***** and whine about how much a high paid exec makes when you could be using that effort to make yourself a high paid exec and change the game, if you think its so wrong? be warren buffet and donate billions of dollars to charity.. but it certainly is easier to just complain instead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tomsmoto
    jealousy/envy is what drives people to want what other people have without working for it themselves. its the most disgusting human trait.
    +100.

    Greed is driving jobs away from the US and has created enormous wealth for those in a position to take advantage of this.

    For the poor to improve their condition and have a reasonable life they now need to work harder than before - fewer jobs that would be able to support a family are available, though there is always **** shovelling to be done. Being poor is a choice for the most part - I totally agree with that.
    A medical student who wandered into Iowa

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    Or the trait where someone thinks they are a "Have" and better than the have nots by the number of toys they have. In fact, someone flamed me here, because, as he explained it, "I was jealous of his forks". Elsewhere, he mentioned that I was something buying frames the moment new models come out. Oddly enough, i'm quite happy on my 2006 bike.

    greed drives people to get phd's.
    Sorry to tell you, but most PhD's are not making the kind of money you think they are. Their compensation is very far from the experience they've invested into themselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tomsmoto
    you'd be a great candidate for another soviet russia, comrade! hate the rich and successful, they're evil and stealing YOUR money!
    Define rich. If by rich, you merely mean merely having a greater than average amount of money pass through your hands, then I'd be saying those things about myself. But that's a pretty shallow definition of rich. But nice try, avoiding the topic with a personal attack. Also, look into whose money "YOUR" money is. You'll find that it's no more my money than it is yours or the governements...

    You still haven't explained how in a system designed to keep people working under the very real threat of starvation and homelessness, people aren't going to wind up starving and homeless. All the steps taken that result in the thinning of the "middle-class" ensure exactly that.

    ...Would you hire a penniless, mentally ill homeless person who hadn't bathed or shaved in three years to serve food at your McDonalds?
    You really have no idea how many people from birth have no means to receive even an elementary education in this country?

    Such blanket statements as "anyone who is poor chooses to be" says that you have an absurdly glorified view of "the market", simply because it worked in your favor, never spent so much as two seconds in anyones shoes but your own, and zero class, with a big mouth to announce it, typical of people new to money.

    But go ahead and assume I'm just some broke hippie communist, and dismiss everything that doesn't fit into your narrow world-view. Pride cometh before...

  91. #91
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    You kids stop fighting back there or, so help me god, I'll pull this thread over and leave you all by the side of the Internet.
    -The world breaks everyone and after some are strong at the broken places.

  92. #92
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    **Such blanket statements as "anyone who is poor chooses to be" says that you have an absurdly glorified view of "the market", simply because it worked in your favor, never spent so much as two seconds in anyones shoes but your own, and zero class, with a big mouth to announce it, typical of people new to money.**

    statements like tomsmoto's provide more evidence that the san francisco bay area is NOT the bastion of "forward thinking liberalism" that it's made out to be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kafromet
    You kids stop fighting back there or, so help me god, I'll pull this thread over and leave you all by the side of the Internet.
    Ok.

    I'll apologize.

    Tomsmoto, you are a brilliant economist, and having gleaned the one true recipe for success through your obvious years of dedicated study, it is a tragedy for our nation that you are not in a position of power where all could bask in the undying glory of your wisdom. Have a wonderful day!

    hb

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    [QUOTE Tomsmoto where on earth did you get the impression that i think people should start their own businesses? starting a small business is the best way to work yourself to death for a few years and end up poorer than when you started. it works for some people, its a huge risk, its also absolutely not the only way to make a living. /QUOTE]

    Uh, because you're a proponent of capitalism in America? This statement is awfully communistic, comrade. Glad you ended up a worker with an ongoing job, but it'd be much more impressive if you took a capital risk and did your own thing...
    "...the people get the government they deserve..."
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    Is there any way this scenario will end well?

    What do you do with the poor that don't adapt ie work hard and learn new traits? The American experiment certainly seems to be failing, and it doesn't look like there's a damn thing to do to save it.
    A medical student who wandered into Iowa

  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by lampy29
    Is there any way this scenario will end well?

    What do you do with the poor that don't adapt ie work hard and learn new traits? The American experiment certainly seems to be failing, and it doesn't look like there's a damn thing to do to save it.
    You can already see your answers in many US cities...
    "...the people get the government they deserve..."
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeb
    statements like tomsmoto's provide more evidence that the san francisco bay area is NOT the bastion of "forward thinking liberalism" that it's made out to be.
    *gasp* got called a nazi conservative.

    im very liberal. i like social programs. i voted no on prop 8. i dont even have the red scare like so many people and kinda dig the idea of collectively paying for things that better everyone. i see how subsidizing education benefits us all.. i dont even mind paying the extra few points for tax we have now. i just happen to not like handouts, and i happen to be quicker to point the finger at individuals instead of the government.

    in a country of billions theres no hard set rules.. whats our unemployment now, 8%? we'll round over and say 15% because the stats dont take into account temp workers or people no longer looking for employment. 85% of the billions of people here are employed. thats pretty good, that gives you a pretty damn good chance of making it even if you're not trying.

    to me it sounds like people want to keep chiseling out stone wheels for horse drawn carts just for the sake of keeping a job. im saying if something is dead and dated, lets just let it go and move on. as it stands now we cant compete globally for manufacturing jobs.. i havent seen anyone suggest how we change that fact and again tackle that field competitively.

    whats so wrong with being innovative?

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    Quote Originally Posted by HotBlack
    Define rich.
    i like the rich dad poor dad definition. the amount of time that you can stop working and maintain your lifestyle. if you can stop working today and indefinitely afford your lifestyle, you're rich. if someone wants to pay all their bills off and move into a hippy commune at a cost of pennies a day, sure they're rich.
    Such blanket statements as "anyone who is poor chooses to be" says that you have an absurdly glorified view of "the market", simply because it worked in your favor, never spent so much as two seconds in anyones shoes but your own, and zero class, with a big mouth to announce it, typical of people new to money.
    what do you know about me? ive been poor most of my life. ive been on welfare at the worst. my parents lost their house right before i was born. i struggled until i decided not to struggle anymore and work for it.. and even then i struggled for a few years before i got anywhere..

    not just that but theres people whove had many times worse situations than me and have gone on to achieve drastically more.

    the fact that you even think the market worked "in my favor" shows what im saying. it didnt fall in my lap and im lucky, and the "market" is screwing everyone else. i stopped and thought about what i could do, and whats in demand and went for it.

    would it have been more noble if i went into manufacturing instead and fought to keep it alive?

  99. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomsmoto
    i like the rich dad poor dad definition. the amount of time that you can stop working and maintain your lifestyle. if you can stop working today and indefinitely afford your lifestyle, you're rich. if someone wants to pay all their bills off and move into a hippy commune at a cost of pennies a day, sure they're rich.

    what do you know about me? ive been poor most of my life. ive been on welfare at the worst. my parents lost their house right before i was born. i struggled until i decided not to struggle anymore and work for it.. and even then i struggled for a few years before i got anywhere..

    not just that but theres people whove had many times worse situations than me and have gone on to achieve drastically more.

    the fact that you even think the market worked "in my favor" shows what im saying. it didnt fall in my lap and im lucky, and the "market" is screwing everyone else. i stopped and thought about what i could do, and whats in demand and went for it.

    would it have been more noble if i went into manufacturing instead and fought to keep it alive?
    What's my father got to do with me being able to retire? There are still hippie communes?

    You went on welfare? Isn't that...gasp....socialism?
    "...the people get the government they deserve..."
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    your signature is painfully correct. lol bush admin.

  101. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomsmoto
    *gasp* got called a nazi conservative.

    im very liberal. i like social programs. i voted no on prop 8. i dont even have the red scare like so many people and kinda dig the idea of collectively paying for things that better everyone. i see how subsidizing education benefits us all.. i dont even mind paying the extra few points for tax we have now. i just happen to not like handouts, and i happen to be quicker to point the finger at individuals instead of the government.

    in a country of billions theres no hard set rules.. whats our unemployment now, 8%? we'll round over and say 15% because the stats dont take into account temp workers or people no longer looking for employment. 85% of the billions of people here are employed. thats pretty good, that gives you a pretty damn good chance of making it even if you're not trying.

    to me it sounds like people want to keep chiseling out stone wheels for horse drawn carts just for the sake of keeping a job. im saying if something is dead and dated, lets just let it go and move on. as it stands now we cant compete globally for manufacturing jobs.. i havent seen anyone suggest how we change that fact and again tackle that field competitively

    whats so wrong with being innovative?
    oh good god, come on! don't put words in people's mouths! if you go back and read your own words, you don't come off as being the typical bay area liberal--with your talk of poverty being a personal choice. i'm sure if you wore a sandwich board with quotes from your posts here at MTBR in east oakland (or east palo alto) you'd be showered with gifts from adoring locals.

    what kind of handouts don't you like? if it's along the lines of bailing out industries like american automakers, i'm right there with you. i am in complete agreement with you that the united states needs to stand back and take a hard look at the way we do and think about things. that's a given. but hey, before you go spouting off about folks being poor by choice, maybe it might be a good idea for you to talk to some who are less fortunate (and ambitious) than yourself, spend a little time with those to whom the odds seem to be insurmountable.

    i don't disagree with you that anybody can at least carve out a comfortable existence for themselves in this country. i just think you should look at things from a different perspective before you make blanket statements.

  102. #102
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    oh, really?

    Quote Originally Posted by CdaleTony
    I am curious what people make for the various jobs at Bedford.
    But also Cdale is successful, they have grown hugely lately and they were profitable.
    Change didn't seem necessary.
    Being in Mfg'ing makes me painfully close to these harsh realities..

    Bankrupt Cdale bought

    ...Now owned by Canadian Juvenile Furniture Mfr. Dorel Industries, along with Pacific, Huffy, Schwinn, and many more.

    Jim

  103. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimC.
    Bankrupt Cdale bought

    ...Now owned by Canadian Juvenile Furniture Mfr. Dorel Industries, along with Pacific, Huffy, Schwinn, and many more.

    Jim
    Jim
    Oh really what?
    Feb 5, 2008

    New Division established exclusively for Independent Bicycle Dealer channel - Pacific Cycle to concentrate on mass merchant category.

    Dorel Industries Ltd. (TSX: DII.A, DII.B) today announced it is re-organizing its Recreational/Leisure segment to create two distinct bicycle divisions to deal separately with the Independent Bicycle Dealer (IBD) and mass merchant channels. The changes are being made to coincide with today's announced acquisition of the Bethel, Connecticut-based Cannondale Bicycle Corporation. The purchase also includes the Sugoi Performance Apparel Company.
    A new Dorel Independent Bicycle Dealer (IBD) Division, the Cannondale Sports Group, is being established and will devote all of its energies and resources exclusively to this channel. The Cannondale Sports Group will encompass Cannondale, Sugoi, GT and other premium-oriented brands, and will seek acquisitions in similar high quality, performance bicycle companies
    .


    I'll ask, what exactly is your point, that PR is from over a year ago, when Dorel bought Cdale from Pegasus.

    This Pegasus.
    Under Pegasus' leadership, Cannondale revenues grew by 30% to $200 million and the company went from operating losses to EBITDA of approximately $20 million. In early 2008, Cannondale was sold to Dorel Industries, a publicly-listed Canadian company, for what Buyouts Magazine called a "stellar return."
    Pegasus Capital Advisors Wins Buyouts Magazine's 'Turnaround of the Year' Award for Cannondale Bicycle

    Pegasus brought Cdale out of bankruptcy. They did so in such fashion they won some turn around of the year award. Dorel bought them for the name , and will now offshore production in an effort to maximize shareholder value.
    We'll see how That goes

    But in an effort to understand, I CnP'ed that whole press release into Word. It failed to find bankrupt or bankruptcy anywhere in there.
    CDT

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    Thanks for saving me the efforts of putting out the big picture of the facts CdaleTony. FWIW the original Cannondale bicycle operation was also profitable from what I remember, it was the venture into motorcycles that cost the company (and the Montgomery dad and son team.
    "...the people get the government they deserve..."
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  105. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikinfoolferlife
    Thanks for saving me the efforts of putting out the big picture of the facts CdaleTony. FWIW the original Cannondale bicycle operation was also profitable from what I remember, it was the venture into motorcycles that cost the company (and the Montgomery dad and son team.
    Yep, that's the history I remember. Oh well I wonder if MUSA Cdale-heads will become like Klein geeks?
    IE.. For sale 2004 Cdale F600. Pre-Dorel Frame! Old USA craftsmanship...

    CDT

  106. #106
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    Personally got no love for Cannondale, never did, especially after what the Montgomery boys did to a viable company...
    "...the people get the government they deserve..."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikinfoolferlife
    You can already see your answers in many US cities...
    Know what you mean there.

    Still consider C'Dale the Porsche of mass manufactured bikes when it comes to XC. Don't like that they'll be made in Taiwan though... look at what happened to GF quality when that happened... Superfly anyone?

    Screw it. Until I can do something I'll be riding my bike.
    Last edited by lampy29; 04-08-2009 at 03:00 AM.
    A medical student who wandered into Iowa

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeb
    oh good god, come on! don't put words in people's mouths! if you go back and read your own words, you don't come off as being the typical bay area liberal--with your talk of poverty being a personal choice. i'm sure if you wore a sandwich board with quotes from your posts here at MTBR in east oakland (or east palo alto) you'd be showered with gifts from adoring locals.
    it was a joke im not the stereotypical liberal. im well aware how its received.. oh well.

    before you go spouting off about folks being poor by choice, maybe it might be a good idea for you to talk to some who are less fortunate (and ambitious) than yourself, spend a little time with those to whom the odds seem to be insurmountable.
    like i said.. ive been there. ive seen my parents make poor financial choices and ive seen them pass those habits to me. ive strugged with debt that seemed unpayable. sure other people absolutely have it worse.. others dont and still dont make it because they dont even try.

    i have absolutely zero problem giving to bring people out of poverty. i think we should have an assload more grant money to send people to school (even trade school).. and ill even vote up a tax and see the money out of my check to do so. its not like im saying we should attempt to bring down the poor. im saying the poor largely bring down themselves. glorification of living in the ghetto? how many apartment complexes have you driven by filled up with mercedes and bmws? watch tv at night and count the debt agency commercials and get rich quick schemes.

    we live in a country of something like 4 billion people. no blanket statements are 100% accurate. theres obviously exceptions to everything.. majority of people who are doing financially terrible somewhere buried themselves along the way. no one forces you to sign that balloon rate mortgage, or charge up 50k on a benz when you pull 15 dollars an hour, or credit card shopping sprees. bad credit and severe debt is extremely common.

    how many people do you know that didnt go to college because they filled out all the grant papers they possibly could and got denied at every turn? how many didnt go because they tried every source for financial aid and couldnt make it happen? most people in bad situations just.. dont even try.

    to me, thats poor by choice. dont you think? all things considered, i dont see how anyone could make the opposite argument that the majority of poor people got there from repeated strokes of amazingly bad luck.

    maybe it just puts a bad taste in peoples mouths to hear "you failed because you failed". this is the place where people sue mcdonalds for getting them fat. this is the place where you have to have a giant warning that mountain biking is dangerous to ward off liability. this is the place where you can break into someones house and sue them when you hurt yourself on the window you smashed. maybe its time we all stop and really ask if were getting screwed or if were screwing ourselves.

    if you lose your job, is the world out to get you, or should you maybe not taken that 5th vacation this year and stashed away some cash instead? maybe this is the same thing.. if your industry goes away.. it just might be time to find the next one that still pays. nothing wrong with progressing forward.

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    all my lbs's are either going out of business, or slashing prices below profit just to bring in some income to stay floating. one just closed up its doors, rumors are another one is going out soon. that leaves FIVE bike shops in about 5 miles. the 5th is new, showed up early last year.

    so i went to check out the new one.. big store, 50% packed full of womens cycling clothes. maybe 10% is components, tools, tune up junk that comprises all the other lbs's, and the rest are tandems. none of it is cheap, its maybe the most expensive store in town. weird i thought, but they have awesome service.. so i get to bs'ing about the owner and he makes some great points.

    .. hes the only bike shop in the area that specializes in womens cycling stuff.. they get all the women from here and other cities. hes one of the very few shops that sell tandems. tandems are freaking expensive, and he can ship them internationally. so instead of relying on selling 10 low end bikes a month to the locals and competing with the other 5 shops for service jobs, he needs to sell a couple tandems a month and hes got the entire world as a market! they do repairs too, but its not their bread and butter like most shops. he said they're doing better by the month and turning profit.. impressive for anyone to be doing well in a start up business this year.

    smart business makes money. the same rehashed ideas either dont, or are too competitive.

    im done. as fun as internet bickering is, ive made my point. whether its misconstrued or not is fairly irrelevant as well. i just hope that one day more people hold themselves accountable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jayhawk261
    2) A large part of the jobs that have gone overseas are jobs that A) people feel are beneath them, or B) in fields that unions would cause large hardships for.
    Point #2 hits it on the spot. While I agree with tom about everyone should be able to go to College, all that is going to do is drive up what Americans think they should be paid. I am from a family of rednecks in the South East and all I hear from them is why I get paid so much and they do not, well maybe it has something to do with having a MS degree. Not everyone can be paid $15+ an hour to be a janitor. We are trying to move away from a manufacturing economy to a more service based one, but guess what, that is not working. We need to go back to focusing on having a solid foundation in our economy that supports all the skilled and non-skilled workers we have and we need to let those people that only make $8/hr that they are just as important as someone that makes $100/hr, everyone is equally important to the economy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tomsmoto
    how many people do you know that didnt go to college because they filled out all the grant papers they possibly could and got denied at every turn? how many didnt go because they tried every source for financial aid and couldnt make it happen? most people in bad situations just.. dont even try.
    It's amazing how many grants you can get to go to college if you study / want to study the right things. (Here's an example) Arabic is in huge need and the government will pay you to learn it, you need to be smart to be able to figure out the language, but if you have the talent and the focus it's doable. Seriously anyone who's smart and can work hard has the chance to go to college. There is an Arabic SUMMER CAMP - and the US government foots the bill for many many many high schoolers who attend, not just those who need the cash, mostly anyone who applies gets the grant. They need native citizens who can speak Arabic badly - and they'll pay for it.

    Oh, I'm poor and can't afford college. (Whiner)

    ROTC is an awesome program, you can join the military and take advantage of the GI bill. Or you can get your hands on a 'regular' scholarship if you've got the grades. Absolutely no excuse in the US to not go to college.
    A medical student who wandered into Iowa

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    Quote Originally Posted by tomsmoto

    we live in a country of something like 4 billion people. no blanket statements are 100% accurate.

    .

    Well, it's been fun, Tom, and I'm seriously thinking about making that part of my signature to go along with that other part you liked !
    "...the people get the government they deserve..."
    suum quique

  113. #113
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    zoooooom...

    c'mon now, the thread is entitled Supporting US Economy-w/American made bikes.

    Except it isn't American any more.

    Successful? I'll let you be the judge. Cutting the work force by 2/3 isn't exactly what the OP had in mind I don't think. But hey, who am I to judge? Jim

    http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...tQz4QD97B55K01

  114. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomsmoto

    we live in a country of something like 4 billion people. no blanket statements are 100% accurate. theres obviously exceptions to everything..

    I believe the US population is somewhere around 300 million!

  115. #115
    mikeb
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomsmoto
    it was a joke im not the stereotypical liberal. im well aware how its received.. oh well.


    like i said.. ive been there. ive seen my parents make poor financial choices and ive seen them pass those habits to me. ive strugged with debt that seemed unpayable. sure other people absolutely have it worse.. others dont and still dont make it because they dont even try.

    i have absolutely zero problem giving to bring people out of poverty. i think we should have an assload more grant money to send people to school (even trade school).. and ill even vote up a tax and see the money out of my check to do so. its not like im saying we should attempt to bring down the poor. im saying the poor largely bring down themselves. glorification of living in the ghetto? how many apartment complexes have you driven by filled up with mercedes and bmws? watch tv at night and count the debt agency commercials and get rich quick schemes.

    we live in a country of something like 4 billion people. no blanket statements are 100% accurate. theres obviously exceptions to everything.. majority of people who are doing financially terrible somewhere buried themselves along the way. no one forces you to sign that balloon rate mortgage, or charge up 50k on a benz when you pull 15 dollars an hour, or credit card shopping sprees. bad credit and severe debt is extremely common.

    how many people do you know that didnt go to college because they filled out all the grant papers they possibly could and got denied at every turn? how many didnt go because they tried every source for financial aid and couldnt make it happen? most people in bad situations just.. dont even try.

    to me, thats poor by choice. dont you think? all things considered, i dont see how anyone could make the opposite argument that the majority of poor people got there from repeated strokes of amazingly bad luck.

    maybe it just puts a bad taste in peoples mouths to hear "you failed because you failed". this is the place where people sue mcdonalds for getting them fat. this is the place where you have to have a giant warning that mountain biking is dangerous to ward off liability. this is the place where you can break into someones house and sue them when you hurt yourself on the window you smashed. maybe its time we all stop and really ask if were getting screwed or if were screwing ourselves.

    if you lose your job, is the world out to get you, or should you maybe not taken that 5th vacation this year and stashed away some cash instead? maybe this is the same thing.. if your industry goes away.. it just might be time to find the next one that still pays. nothing wrong with progressing forward.
    trust me, tom, i've lived in the bay area for twenty five years and i'm far from being the "stereotypical liberal" as well.

    now that you make yourself clear, i agree with you on every point except one...and that is that many are born into poverty. yes, if you're poor and live in the ghetto you can work your way out but it takes almost superhuman dedication and effort (for some, maybe most) to do so.

    we should remember that the original topic of this thread was how can the OP support the american economy by buying american made bikes and components. your response was this..."how about buy from an american lbs in an american made store full of american employees who get their bikes sent in from the american shipping company who also has american employees"

    we live in a global economy now. there's no going back. that's the way it is.

  116. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomsmoto
    we live in a country of something like 4 billion people.
    Brilliant AND well researched, Tomsmoto.

  117. #117

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    haha, i think thats the global population.. 6ish billion. whatever, same idea :P i guess were more like 303mil.

  118. #118
    discombobulated SuperModerator
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    when in doubt, google is your friend.

    http://www.census.gov/main/www/popclock.html

  119. #119
    Old man on a bike
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    Just a bit of food for thought...in 1950 the estimated population of the planet was about 2.6 billion, now it's about 6.7 billion. Kinda scary.
    "...the people get the government they deserve..."
    suum quique

  120. #120
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    We don't need to worry about any of this. obama is going to single-handedly fix everything.

  121. #121
    Old man on a bike
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    Yep, multi trillion dollar deficits are nothing, no problem for your kids to pay that back someday....let's see, just 1 trillion dollars additional debt means 3333 dollars for each man woman and child (whether a taxpayer or not). We're now at approximately 11 trillion in debt, so that's only 36,600 each or so. No problem, except that there are less than 100,000,000 taxpayers (not tax filers, tax payers), so make those debt figures about triple. Ouch.
    "...the people get the government they deserve..."
    suum quique

  122. #122
    discombobulated SuperModerator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikinfoolferlife
    Yep, multi trillion dollar deficits are nothing, no problem for your kids to pay that back someday....let's see, just 1 trillion dollars additional debt means 3333 dollars for each man woman and child (whether a taxpayer or not). We're now at approximately 11 trillion in debt, so that's only 36,600 each or so. No problem, except that there are less than 100,000,000 taxpayers (not tax filers, tax payers), so make those debt figures about triple. Ouch.
    Looks like our share here is a cool $100k. Lemme root around for some 'change'.
    bahaha

  123. #123
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    You normally don't find such intelligent comments on the internet.
    A medical student who wandered into Iowa

  124. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikinfoolferlife
    Just a bit of food for thought...in 1950 the estimated population of the planet was about 2.6 billion, now it's about 6.7 billion. Kinda scary.
    it's going to be a complete zoo if they sign an illegal immigrant bill. can't wait for that one.

  125. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by bwheelin
    it's going to be a complete zoo if they sign an illegal immigrant bill. can't wait for that one.
    Yeah, that will have a HUGE impact on world population. God help us!

  126. #126
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    We're pretty much ****ed. Deficit, overpopulation, Africa is in ruins, China is in a dangerously unstable position, US is not doing well by any means - an unstable economy through national AND state deficits, something no one has talked about yet. California is nearing bankrupcy like many other states, as are many citizens, so we're in the hole for MUCH more than *just* the federal deficit. ****.

    check out worldchangeforum.org if you want to keep up conversations like this one.
    A medical student who wandered into Iowa

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