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  1. #1
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    So, did 29ers win? We going back to 1 wheel size again?

    Full year mtb sales numbers for 2018 just came in and last year “there was a dramatic switch-over from sales of 27.5-inch full suspension bikes back to 29-inch full-suspension.”

    https://www.bicycleretailer.com/stud...s#.XE_pxySIahA

    Not really that surprising given that 29ers had just about doubled 27.5” sales last year already by October with BRAIN showing that by “October (2018), wholesalers sold $9.4 million in 29ers and only $5.6 million in 27.5-inch bikes.”

    And by November BRAIN was showing that “on the inventory side for mountain bikes, suppliers appear to have an excessive amount of 27.5-inch front-suspension bikes on hand. They had $25.1 million worth of those bikes in stock in November 2018, up from $16.5 million at the same time last year, a 52 percent increase. Sales in that category have been soft in 2018, down 17 percent YTD from 2017.”


    So does anyone see a shift back to the non-plus 27.5”?
    And if not, will/can the industry fully support the dying 27.5”wheel size?
    Last edited by tahoebeau; 3 Weeks Ago at 07:32 AM.

  2. #2
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    Most sheeple will buy what they are told to buy. When they start to see that ebikes are coming out in 27.5 (for good reason) and put 2&2 together the pendulum will swing back

  3. #3
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    Aren't they bringing out 28ers?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    Aren't they bringing out 28ers?
    You mean 700cers or 622ers?

  5. #5
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    I think the trend will continue for another year or two then stabilize with the majority of bikes sold being 29 and a smaller but significant percentage being 27.5. There's a healthy percentage of people who want 27.5. I think we're also at the end of an evolutionary phase in bike design where they're finally figuring out the geo and making good handling long travel 29ers. Over the last couple years we've seen bike manufacturers come out with their 1st 29er enduro or downhill bike and that effect is on two levels - availability and marketing. 5 years from now...I have no clue.

  6. #6
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    what about the bikes that can handle both...wouldn't that skew the numbers.

    does it all really matter in the end? I think bikes will be around in some form as life goes on, and what you ride is only "right or wrong" for you...

    would be interesting to see how many people in those results were first time buyers vs. veterans....
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy3220 View Post
    I think the trend will continue for another year or two then stabilize with the majority of bikes sold being 29 and a smaller but significant percentage being 27.5. There's a healthy percentage of people who want 27.5. I think we're also at the end of an evolutionary phase in bike design where they're finally figuring out the geo and making good handling long travel 29ers. Over the last couple years we've seen bike manufacturers come out with their 1st 29er enduro or downhill bike and that effect is on two levels - availability and marketing. 5 years from now...I have no clue.
    Solid statements and thoughts in there that I support.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    Aren't they bringing out 28ers?
    I am holding for 30ers .. That will revolutionize mtn biking forever and leave all other wheel sizes on ash heap of history. Sell your 29ers now while they are still worth something. The 26er and 27.5 already worthless.



    [or until the next big thing]
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy3220 View Post
    I think the trend will continue for another year or two then stabilize with the majority of bikes sold being 29 and a smaller but significant percentage being 27.5.
    I see what your saying but, wonder what % of mtb sales will need to be non-plus 27.5” for it to still be viable to continue to make components for that size. There is a lot more to keeping the 27.5” wheel size going besides having some mtb manufactures still willing to make that size frame.

    If the % of 27.5” sales drops low enough, will there be enough companies making components to support the fewer 27.5” frames being made? If this happens, what companies will still be making advancements in the 27.5” wheel size for things like forks, wheels and tires? And how much R&D are mtb manufactures really going to put into a frame with a 27.5” wheel size given what these sales trends are showing?

    Seems to me that 27.5” has not been around long, only about 5 years. If sales of that wheel size start to slow down dramatically now, just a few years after it cam out, I don’t think that there will be enough 27.5” specific bikes out in the wild it to be worth it for most companies to keep making components like forks, wheels and tires. And once that starts, then even less people will want to buy a 27.5” frame than now, putting the nail in the coffin even further for the dying wheel size.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by tahoebeau View Post
    I see what your saying but, wonder what % of mtb sales will need to be non-plus 27.5” for it to still be viable to continue to make components for that size. There is a lot more to keeping the 27.5” wheel size going besides having some mtb manufactures still willing to make that size frame.

    If the % of 27.5” sales drops low enough, will there be enough companies making components to support the fewer 27.5” frames being made? If this happens, what companies will still be making advancements in the 27.5” wheel size for things like forks, wheels and tires? And how much R&D are mtb manufactures really going to put into a frame with a 27.5” wheel size given what these sales trends are showing?

    Seems to me that 27.5” has not been around long, only about 5 years. If sales of that wheel size start to slow down dramatically now, just a few years after it cam out, I don’t think that there will be enough 27.5” specific bikes out in the wild it to be worth it for most companies to keep making components like forks, wheels and tires. And once that starts, then even less people will want to buy a 27.5” frame than now, putting the nail in the coffin even further for the dying wheel size.
    if you think about this like you would cars, there are tons of car models that are no longer made, but that you can still get parts for...Oldsmobile comes to mind for me. Our family has a historic connection to Oldsmobiles, and my uncles still race, rebuild, and collect old models from the 50's and 60's, and can still get parts for them.

    it will be interesting to see if there is a resurgence - for whatever reason - in 26ers down the road...just like there was a resurgence of muscle cars in the mid 2000's with the Dodge Charger/Camaro etc coming back out. I remember when they discontinued the Camaro, I though I would never see it again
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy3220 View Post
    I think we're also at the end of an evolutionary phase in bike design where they're finally figuring out the geo and making good handling long travel 29ers.
    I agree bikes have gotten better and better, but my 2012 Tallboy Ltc has 5.5" rear and 6" front travel. With the angleset headset I've had installed for a couple years now, I've got a 67.5 degree HTA.

    I've ridden several newer bikes since I bought the tallboy, and have yet to ride one that I thought was significantly better in any way for the kind of riding I do.

    I'm a fairly undemanding rider, so I get that opinions will differ greatly, but that's how I see it.

    Keeping the money in my pocket rather than following the marketing hype.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by sXeXBMXer View Post
    if you think about this like you would cars, there are tons of car models that are no longer made, but that you can still get parts for...Oldsmobile comes to mind for me. Our family has a historic connection to Oldsmobiles, and my uncles still race, rebuild, and collect old models from the 50's and 60's, and can still get parts for them.

    it will be interesting to see if there is a resurgence - for whatever reason - in 26ers down the road...just like there was a resurgence of muscle cars in the mid 2000's with the Dodge Charger/Camaro etc coming back out. I remember when they discontinued the Camaro, I though I would never see it again
    I believe when you enter the US auto market, you have to agree to support the parts market for your vehicle for a certain number of years. There is no such requirement for the bike market. I've read that the Chrysler Crossfire has run into issues though, with Daimler and Chrysler both pointing at each other and saying it's the other's responsibility.

    But as long as there is a demand for 27.5 components, they will be manufactured. It could taper off but that will take awhile. And I guess you could swap on a 27.5+/29 fork and just run a bigger front wheel/tire.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by tahoebeau View Post
    I see what your saying but, wonder what % of mtb sales will need to be non-plus 27.5” for it to still be viable to continue to make components for that size.
    I think we'll see more bikes come with 27.5x2.6" tires that can fit up to 2.8" and down to a 2.3". The plus crowd is likely to want a higher BB anyway. I think the real decrease in production will be dedicated plus bikes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ladmo View Post
    I agree bikes have gotten better and better, but my 2012 Tallboy Ltc has 5.5" rear and 6" front travel. With the angleset headset I've had installed for a couple years now, I've got a 67.5 degree HTA.
    I consider 5.5" midtravel. I'm talking 150mm+ with 66° or less HTA.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by sXeXBMXer View Post
    if you think about this like you would cars, there are tons of car models that are no longer made, but that you can still get parts for...Oldsmobile comes to mind for me.
    I am sure we will still be able to get lower end parts just like with 26” mtbs now, but would we see much of any advancement in those parts or just be buying new items with old tech to keep things going. I don’t know of many comapnies bringing out new advancements or even new models of 26” forks, tires or wheels.


    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post

    But as long as there is a demand for 27.5 components, they will be manufactured.
    Like I said above, lower end forks, tires and wheels will still probably be made to keep things going for older bikes, but how much new advancements and tech will companies be willing to spend if the standard is no longer popular? Without new, we as mtbrs loose interest quickly further killing the standard.

    We killed the 26” wheel size really fast and it was around for 3 decades. 27.5” has barely been around for half a decade and it is already on the same sales path trajectory as the 26” took. The big difference is that there is 3 decades of 26” frame mtbs out there for component companies to make and sell parts for and just 5 years for 27.5”. That is a lot less demand for parts than 26” which it’s already hard getting parts for.

    I don’t see bike manufactures putting much if any r&d and new tech into 27.5” frames if there going to have to put components with older tech on the bike to get the standard to work.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by tahoebeau View Post
    put components with older tech
    Besides rims, I can't think of a single component that is specific to non-plus 27.5 bikes.

    This has been mentioned as an issue a couple times here; what am I missing?
    Aside from MTBR subforums for wheel-size specific components ( ) I don't see any basis in reality.
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  16. #16
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    I miss my old 26'rs....
    Don't say what you mean, you might spoil your face...

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Besides rims, I can't think of a single component that is specific to non-plus 27.5 bikes.

    This has been mentioned as an issue a couple times here; what am I missing?
    Aside from MTBR subforums for wheel-size specific components ( ) I don't see any basis in reality.
    Are you saying I got ripped off when my shop sold me 27.5 specific bars, stem, saddle and grips?
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by VTSession View Post
    Are you saying I got ripped off when my shop sold me 27.5 specific bars, stem, saddle and grips?
    Yup. All old tech. You need to go out and replace them all with 29er specific parts.
    Don't forget a new drivetrain and brakes!
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  19. #19
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    People like my wife and a some others have absolutely zero interest in big-wheeled bikes.

    If the industry stops making bikes with 26 AND 27.5" wheels, then I suppose she's just going to have to be happy with what she has now (a 26er and a 27.5) and keeping them alive.

    It seems to me that a couple of factors combined to hasten the abandonment of 26ers. Wheel size is one, and rim manufacturers actually held on for awhile. I think the adoption of the tapered steerer tube is a bigger factor, tbh. The tapered steerer hit the industry hard and fast, and straight steerers on high end forks disappeared almost instantly compared to how 26er wheels lingered for awhile. The other, lesser factor, would be adoption of boost hub spacing. It seems that there are actually more straight steerer forks available now than there were a few years ago, as some companies have realized that there ARE people keeping old bikes alive and they need forks.

    Combine all 3 of those factors, and you've got mtb riders preferring a new bike over buying a lightly used 26er and keeping it in service. So in addition to 26ers disappearing from the new bike market, the resale value of 26ers also plummeted. I don't see that storm happening with 27.5 bikes. Fewer new ones might be getting sold now, and so if manufacturers reduce the number of frames/models they offer to adjust, it's not like critical components like forks will be suddenly impossible to source new. Worst case, you put a 29er fork on, which will affect geo and fit some, but isn't a deal breaker most of the time.

    I, frankly, don't see the complete abandonment of smaller wheel sizes altogether. There are always going to be kids and adults who just aren't comfortable on 29ers.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by sXeXBMXer View Post
    It will be interesting to see if there is a resurgence - for whatever reason - in 26ers down the road...just like there was a resurgence of muscle cars..
    Interesting comparison. Neither make sense on paper and yet are still a blast because they say 'feck you' to convention.

  21. #21
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    My 29er is way faster than my 27.5. If they make a 27.5 that's faster than my 29er, I won't hesitate to go back.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    Interesting comparison. Neither make sense on paper and yet are still a blast because they say 'feck you' to convention.
    yep...or the people who had the original idea to make a thing "obsolete" gain some wisdom and come back around and say "maybe that thing was not as bad as we thought", and they also miss some of the 'feck you' the original model had as well
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haggis View Post
    Most sheeple will buy what they are told to buy.
    exactly. when someone walks into a bike shop and the only thing on the floor is a 29" bike, of course that's what is going to be purchased. we aren't talking science here...


  24. #24
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    The used market dictates what I ride. I've been happy with the 27.5, so it sounds like i'll have plenty of options for the next few years.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    People like my wife and a some others have absolutely zero interest in big-wheeled bikes.
    same. i'm short and also have short legs, big wheels make zero sense and i will never make the switch. relevant 26" rims and tires will always be around...


  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSU Alum View Post
    My 29er is way faster than my 27.5. If they make a 27.5 that's faster than my 29er, I won't hesitate to go back.
    When going slightly faster is more important to me than having fun, I won't hesitate to buy a 29er.

    Or a car..

  27. #27
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    I just lived through what some of you are speculating. I'm a veteran rider of full-suspension 26ers. Last year I was in the market for a new bike, and felt like I wanted the "spunkiness" of a 27.5er instead of going to a 29er which I figured would be a little slower feeling due to geometry, having more tire, etc.

    Looking for a lightweight trail 27.5er proved difficult. They were all + bikes. Or pretty heavy for serious enduro. And a lot of them seemed to be 27.5" bikes with fat tires put on 29er frames and I didn't want that. I really couldn't find reasonably lightweight, 27.5" full-suspension bikes with a 2.3 or 2.4 tire and about 120mm suspension. The only ones closest to that were like dedicated xc bikes.

    Over the fall and winter I noticed some reviews of 29ers that had the latest geometry and supposedly handled very well. I found one that was pretty light, 2.3 tires, not overly suspended, and bought it. So, 27.5 lost that sale because no one seemed to make a high-quality "normal" trail bike. They were all pushing me to accept a 29er geometry with 27.5" fat tires, or overly built for enduro capability. (Okay, maybe there is one out there, but I mean walking into a bike shop and seeing what's on their floor or being able to demo one... and voicing my displeasure to several bike shop employees, they admitted there wasn't much out there like I was looking for. I guess I was looking for about a 7-year-old mindset 27.5" bike, but with modern 27.5" geometry, 1x11 or 1x12, Boost, 34 forks, etc.)
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  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by VTSession View Post
    Are you saying I got ripped off when my shop sold me 27.5 specific bars, stem, saddle and grips?



    At least you didn't go down the rabbit hole of 650 specific valve stems.
    Wanted, SRAM GX 2x11 rear derailleur

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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by VTSession View Post
    Are you saying I got ripped off when my shop sold me 27.5 specific bars, stem, saddle and grips?
    No, but the 27.5" specific derailleur fluid was a total rip off.
    No dig no whine

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    At least you didn't go down the rabbit hole of 650 specific valve stems.
    I wonder what wheel size specific brake levers he ended up with.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
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  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crankout View Post
    I miss my old 26'rs....
    Still riding my old 26ers.
    Quote Originally Posted by .WestCoastHucker. View Post
    exactly. when someone walks into a bike shop and the only thing on the floor is a 29" bike, of course that's what is going to be purchased. we aren't talking science here...
    Or perhaps nothing gets purchased, if the bikes on the floor don't fit,
    and customer who was stoked to buy a bike walks out disgusted and decides to take up hiking instead.
    Quote Originally Posted by .WestCoastHucker. View Post
    same. i'm short and also have short legs, big wheels make zero sense and i will never make the switch. relevant 26" rims and tires will always be around...
    This. I hope.

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  32. #32
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    I still remember when I replaced my '98 Mongoose NX 8.5. Anyone remember those? That thing coast me $1,500 in 1998. Couldn't afford the NX 9.5... which cost $3,500, again in 1998! They were, of course, 26".

    Anyway... I replaced the NX in 2003 with a new Gary Fisher Sugar 3+. Also a 26". But I remember, since I was looking at Fisher's, that Fisher at the time had the Supercaliber, which was a 29". That thing felt enormous. It felt like riding a 1800's high wheeler. Fisher came out with their first 29" called the Two Niner in 2001, as I recall. I have ridden several 29's beyond those early years. Hard to believe it's already been 18 years since the first 29's. But I am currently on, and will most likely forever stay with, 27.5. I just can't feel as playful on 29 as I can 27.5. The trails I like, and the way I like to ride them, on a regular basis just feel better on 27.5's for me. I'm not concerned about being able to keep my 27.5 up and running for many years. Guys used to tell me on every ride... "Man Fred, you better replace that 26" Sugar soon 'cause you'll never get parts for it". That was years ago. It's 2019, and I can still get parts for my '03 26" Fisher. Heck, just last year, I replaced its year/frame specific pivot bushings, which Trek (who bought Fisher many years ago) still have in stock. Evan as an '03, I can still easily get BBs, cranks, drive trains, wheels, tires, etc. So, I'm not concerned with being able to keep my current daily ridden 27.5 in good shape for years to come, even if the new bike industry abandons them.

    This has nothing to do with saying 27.5 is better or worse than 29. 29 just isn't for me.
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  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Besides rims, I can't think of a single component that is specific to non-plus 27.5 bikes.

    This has been mentioned as an issue a couple times here; what am I missing?
    Aside from MTBR subforums for wheel-size specific components ( ) I don't see any basis in reality.

    Tires? And too a lesser extent forks, although most 26” forks would probably work.
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  34. #34
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    I have zero interest in wagon wheels 29'ers


    been there, done that.

    27.5 suits me fine, will stay with them, since they are --not-- going away

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  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by .WestCoastHucker. View Post
    exactly. when someone walks into a bike shop and the only thing on the floor is a 29" bike, of course that's what is going to be purchased. we aren't talking science here...
    ...not exactly the way it works, demand comes from consumers...if someone walks into a bike shop wanting a 27.5 and there are none, they walk out and go to the other shop that has them. Ask Giant if having gone almost totally to 27.5 for a bit caused people to buy those in Giant shops....it didn’t. Consumers took their demand for 29 to other shops and Giant suffered and had to reverse course. Consumers may be marketed to effectively, but they drive demand. Bike companies abandoned 26 because consumer demand disappeared almost completely very quickly, and a shop selling only those would have been out of business in 6 months. Now it seems demand is swinging back to 29, forcing companies to react and sell what consumers demand....whether they intended to or not.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haymarket View Post
    ...not exactly the way it works, demand comes from consumers...if someone walks into a bike shop wanting a 27.5 and there are none, they walk out and go to the other shop that has them..
    except that most people walking into a bike shop looking for a bike, have no idea what they are actually looking for....


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    Quote Originally Posted by .WestCoastHucker. View Post
    except that most people walking into a bike shop looking for a bike, have no idea what they are actually looking for....
    The truth behind what led to the 29er revolution.
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  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by .WestCoastHucker. View Post
    except that most people walking into a bike shop looking for a bike, have no idea what they are actually looking for....
    Then I can assume that Giant dealers thrived with their 27.5 approach? And I guess the big wholesale backlog of 27.5 refered to can be quickly sold...just send them to the dealers, right? Should go like hot cakes if the dealers create demand as you opine, right?

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    Sounds like 29er is faster and they’ve figured out how to make the geometry work with the bigger wheels and higher travel so objectively speaking a 29er seems like a better choice. That said I bought a 27.5 because it cost half of what a similar 29er would have cost me being as it is used and considered obsolete

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    ----------------------------------------------------

    Giant Bicycles 2019 USA offroad Lineup

    12 models in 27.5 shoe size
    only 8 in 29 shoe size

    ----------------------------------------------------
    can't explain that
    Giant banked on 27.5 taking over 29ers in the trail and enduro market. They were wrong and are now playing catch up. Which is why they brought back the Trance 29. I'll be surprised if they don't come out with one or two longer travel 29ers this year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Haymarket View Post
    ...not exactly the way it works, demand comes from consumers
    and marketing is how manufacturers create demand. sometimes the marketing resonates with consumers. sometimes not.

    it's really not very common for consumers to drive product development 100%, but it happens. usually from consumers deciding that they want something that the market doesn't offer, so they make it themselves. but they still have to market that product to generate interest from possible customers (and thereby demand for the product). if there's enough demand, other manufacturers will try to offer something similar.

    Where does product development come from with mtb's?

    Some comes from the racing side. Manufacturers testing products for racers, developing products at the direction of racers who have specific needs, etc.

    Some comes from the engineers trying to solve problems. For example, wimpy 29er wheels were a driving force (maybe not the only one) behind boost hub spacing. If you notice, 29ers remained soundly in the xc categories until manufacturers started adopting wider hub spacing for them. Tapered steerers allowed for longer travel single crown forks.

    Some of it comes from a desire for cost savings on the manufacturing side. What consumer in their right mind would demand pressfit bottom brackets? That was something that was adopted at the direction of manufacturers. Threaded bb's still exist because some consumers vehemently demand them.

    Some of it comes directly from consumers, but not that much.

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    I ride a 27.5 bike from 2015. At the point now where I am window-shopping, not going to buy but always working on what I would buy if....
    I get to demo a few times a year and have yet to ride a 9'r that I can turn the way my Process does. According to Bike and Pinkbike reviews I will be riding them soon as that is what all the manufactures have managed to do with their new 4-6 inch bikes. Fork offset combined w/ short CS and mid to high 60's head angles are supposed to make them nimble. Sounds great
    oops I wasn't clipped in

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy3220 View Post
    Giant banked on 27.5 taking over 29ers in the trail and enduro market. They were wrong and are now playing catch up. Which is why they brought back the Trance 29. I'll be surprised if they don't come out with one or two longer travel 29ers this year.
    yes as mentioned before Giant went all in on 27.5 and well... oops.. so they are bringing out new 29ers..

    I'm riding a Trance 27.5 right now.. but I'm going back to 29 I think...

    Luckily I didn't pay for the 27.5 but I've have it to use for a basically opened ended time frame.. I honestly think I like my old 2012 Anthem x29er better than the Trance Advance 2 ...=\

    I'm tall however 6'3"

    one would hope that 27.5 stays on the market as for smaller riders it makes sense / and or makes sense for those that prefer it..

    maybe I need to move my SWEET Answer 810 3" riser bars to the trance??? and I'll like it better??

    So, did 29ers win? We going back to 1 wheel size again?-trance1.jpg

    So, did 29ers win? We going back to 1 wheel size again?-mud_2.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    I have zero interest in wagon wheels 29'ers


    been there, done that.

    27.5 suits me fine, will stay with them, since they are --not-- going away

    ----------------------------------------------------

    Giant Bicycles 2019 USA offroad Lineup

    12 models in 27.5 shoe size
    only 8 in 29 shoe size

    ----------------------------------------------------
    can't explain that
    Very easy to explain and your just proving the OP’s point. In 2016 Giant had 2 models of 29ers and now, as you pointed out, they have increased to 8. It will be more next year after they play catch up and release a long travel 29er and other 29ers.

    Head over to the Giant forum and check out some recent threads. Big focus on 29ers even threads about putting 29” wheels on 27.5 frames.

    Funny, I seem to remember a lot of people putting 27.5” on their 26er frames right as the 26er was fading out. History repeats itself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by singletrackmack View Post
    Tires? And too a lesser extent forks, although most 26” forks would probably work.
    Ya, tires would be the big one. Soon you will be just buying whatever 27.5” tire you can find that will fit a non-plus 27.5” frame. Things like tread pattern, compound and weight will be last on the list when looking for a new non-plus 27.5” tire.


    Quote Originally Posted by .WestCoastHucker. View Post
    exactly. when someone walks into a bike shop and the only thing on the floor is a 29" bike, of course that's what is going to be purchased. we aren't talking science here...
    And you have shown you have no idea how retail works. And that you missed this part of my original post...

    “on the inventory side for mountain bikes, suppliers appear to have an excessive amount of 27.5-inch front-suspension bikes on hand. They had $25.1 million worth of those bikes in stock in November 2018, up from $16.5 million at the same time last year, a 52 percent increase. Sales in that category have been soft in 2018, down 17 percent YTD from 2017.”



    So, what do you think is going to happen here? Do you think retailers are going to order up on 2019 non-plus 27.5” model bikes to add to all the excesses 2018 27.5” non-plus bikes that they can’t sell for a profit and are tying up their inventory dollars?

    What are manufactures going to do? Tell suppliers to get ready to increase units of non-plus 27.5” bikes for 2020 because of the “excessive amount” of non-plus inventory out in the market?

    Here is a quick retailer lesson on new product life cycle. Retailers that are smart will have already gotten out of the non-plus 27.5” market. Those that haven’t yet will be the ones that struggle. This is retail 101.

    So, did 29ers win? We going back to 1 wheel size again?-fdcc387d-8b6c-41f8-93a1-8cfce3f4e2c4.jpg

    Look at where non-plus 27.5” is on the life cycle and then take a look at the profit line below it and where is is going. Haymarket did a great job of summing it up below. If retailers don’t get out now, it will be a struggle to stay afloat.


    Quote Originally Posted by Haymarket View Post
    ...not exactly the way it works, demand comes from consumers...if someone walks into a bike shop wanting a 27.5 and there are none, they walk out and go to the other shop that has them. Ask Giant if having gone almost totally to 27.5 for a bit caused people to buy those in Giant shops....it didn’t. Consumers took their demand for 29 to other shops and Giant suffered and had to reverse course. Consumers may be marketed to effectively, but they drive demand. Bike companies abandoned 26 because consumer demand disappeared almost completely very quickly, and a shop selling only those would have been out of business in 6 months. Now it seems demand is swinging back to 29, forcing companies to react and sell what consumers demand....whether they intended to or not.

  46. #46
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    I test ride the 29ers that I build at the shop and always think, "Why would anyone buy a piece of shit like this for trail riding?"

    I could see if you're tall, but for twisty singletrack, no way. I tried a new Intense a couple days ago and swapped it right back.
    Ripping trails and tipping ales

  47. #47
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    I’ve got both wheelsizes in the garage, but my latest purchase was 27.5. Monster trucking isn’t why I ride...

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    I have all 3 sizes in my garage.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Kuhl View Post
    I have all 3 sizes in my garage.
    And then some.
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  50. #50
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    You can keep your wagon wheels on your farm gates. I like turning corners on tight steep tracks.

  51. #51
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    Short person here.

    29ers aren’t made for me. I don’t like them, mainly because of the way they corner. If you like them, great. Go ride.

    As far as all the new 29ers coming out; a lot of it feels like marker fragmentation. Anything to create demand, real or perceived.

    I really like the plus 650b tire though. I didn’t think I would be a convert but I really like them.

    I also have a 26” DJ, and that’s just for pump tracks. I would love to see the 26” bike make a comeback as something other than a kids bike or DJ, but that’s just me

    That said, parts are still easily available for both the 26” and 650b. Both are round, just the line the 29er and aren’t going away anytime soon (especially in the used world).
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    Quote Originally Posted by dundermifflin View Post
    Sounds like 29er is faster and they’ve figured out how to make the geometry work with the bigger wheels and higher travel so objectively speaking a 29er seems like a better choice.
    Pretty much.

    29ers are becoming even easier to ride quickly and aggressively than 27.5s or even 26" bikes ever were.

    "Lighter" and "quicker" steering isn't always a good thing, there's a spectrum of stability and you want to stay away from either extreme. That's why a luxury car has light steering/high boost power steering and a sports car doesn't, but it's not heavy like a big truck either. The sports car's heavier, but not too heavy, steering provides the confidence to really lay into it (like a mountain bike), the luxury car's lighter steering is more vague, and doesn't (like a road bike).

  53. #53
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    Having now ridden a 29" (2015 Trek Remedy 9.9) and a 27.5"+, I have zero interest in the 27.5.
    I thought I'd really like it, but the lower bottom bracket is ridiculous.
    4 light pedal strikes on a 29 vs. 25 (stopped counting at 25 in 4 miles) medium to heavy pedal strikes in the 27.5.
    Perhaps it's not all the wheel diameter, but I'm sure it doesn't help.
    Plus, my Remedy is so insanely good at everything, I sure don't see any drawbacks.....

  54. #54
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    That’s either an extremely low BB or bad technique. Neither of which has anything to do with wheel size

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by tahoebeau View Post

    So does anyone see a shift back to the non-plus 27.5”?
    We're bumping in to that point where some people aren't able to physically fit on to well designed bikes with the largest wheel size. The roadies ran into that problem 30 years ago, and their solution was to make shitty compromised bikes for everyone under ~5'5. We'll see what the mtb market does, but my impression is that mtb consumers are more attuned with the machine than roadies are. ...but also the terrain and individual preferences of mtb'ers is more complicated. Marketing may not be able to push everyone to do what's convenient for manufacturers. We'll see.

    My 6'3 self has a similarly sized bucket of popcorn prepared for the show. (I think short riders will be intrigued by the maturation of big wheels, their curiosity will kill demand for 27.5 in the short term, and manufacturers will stop producing them. Suckers.)
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  56. #56
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    Frame???

    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Besides rims, I can't think of a single component that is specific to non-plus 27.5 bikes.

    This has been mentioned as an issue a couple times here; what am I missing?
    Aside from MTBR subforums for wheel-size specific components ( ) I don't see any basis in reality.

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    OK, 99% of bike riders around the world probably fall within the range between 5'2" and 6'4", basically a 23% gap.

    Wheel size however is only 5-6% apart between 275 and 29 (w/ tires).

    With respect to the claim that "bigger wheels are faster", why aren't y'all on 34ers?

    I suspect the truth is "just-right" wheels are fastest.

    But the industry don't really have to patience to do a full wheel size range like some Italian manufacturers do with road frame sizes. So people have to generalize to make their marketing dept happy.

    A 6'4" guy on 275s is as ridiculous as a 5'2" guy on 29ers.

    To use a milder example, if a 5'9" guy prefers 29ers, then does that mean a 6'3" guy should be on 31ers?

    Judging from the comments in this thread, MANY people have already bought into the marketing BS.

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by DethWshBkr View Post
    Having now ridden a 29" (2015 Trek Remedy 9.9) and a 27.5"+, I have zero interest in the 27.5.
    I thought I'd really like it, but the lower bottom bracket is ridiculous.
    4 light pedal strikes on a 29 vs. 25 (stopped counting at 25 in 4 miles) medium to heavy pedal strikes in the 27.5.
    Perhaps it's not all the wheel diameter, but I'm sure it doesn't help.
    Plus, my Remedy is so insanely good at everything, I sure don't see any drawbacks.....
    You probably just needed to get adjusted to it. Way back when I got my 26er SS, I got a lot of bad pedal strikes, crashed once. But after a couple of rides, I wasn't, even when switching back and forth between it and the geared bike I had been used to. And I didn't have to consciously adjust, I just rode. I think it's kind of like handlebar width, the bike becomes part of your body and knows where the parts are being placed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oh My Sack! View Post
    Remember, there's always quilting and knitting if pedalling becomes too tough.

  59. #59
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    It is a huge jump for kids to go from 24" to 29". I could see manufacturers producing 26" for kids and maybe that would lead to a bit of a resurgence with some offering for adults as well. Or they could stick with 27.5 to fill that same market, that would probably make more sense at this point. Some of the road bike manufacturer's produce 650s for their smaller road bikes still, don't they? And 650 gravel bikes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oh My Sack! View Post
    Remember, there's always quilting and knitting if pedalling becomes too tough.

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    In case you haven't noticed, there is a subforum "29er components".

    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Besides rims, I can't think of a single component that is specific to non-plus 27.5 bikes.

    This has been mentioned as an issue a couple times here; what am I missing?
    Aside from MTBR subforums for wheel-size specific components ( ) I don't see any basis in reality.

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by threefire View Post

    With respect to the claim that "bigger wheels are faster", why aren't y'all on 34ers?
    Who are you quoting? Is his name Scarecrow?

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    No one wins if there are no choices.

    Ive ridden and own 26", 27.5 and 29ers....I still prefer 27.5.

    I hear all the bs about 29ers being faster, which maybe they are at rollout( transition from a downhill to a flat) but that is very temporary or over rocky areas( baby head size), maybe a little faster. But 27.5 dominates in tight, twisty trails, both up and down, which consists of most of my riding.
    My main bike is a 170mm front, 160mm rear,DW link enduro bike, rolling 2.4 tires, which I use pretty much for everything, from xc to downhill, I dont think Id go back to my 130mm 29er. If I were strickly racing xc, I probably would be on a 29er, although in 2012 and 2013, I dominated the local xc scene riding a 27.5 xc bike.
    Funny story...all my friends ride 29ers and always tease me about riding 27.5. We did the Palm Canyon Epic a few weeks ago, there is a section in which a few of the riders stated that they havent, or seen anyone clear in the first try. I cleared it on my first try...I think after that ride, and clearing other sections, as well as hanging on the climbs, they had a little more respect for 27.5

    I believe and hope that 27.5 is here to stay, but with 29er DH bikes coming on strong, I dont know. AS it is now, we are in a better place because we do have a choice of wheel size.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gumby_rider View Post
    In case you haven't noticed, there is a subforum "29er components".
    Yes, I was making fun of that fact.
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  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by threefire View Post
    Frame???
    Ummmm....'component'???
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  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    When going slightly faster is more important to me than having fun, I won't hesitate to buy a 29er.

    Or a car..
    I'm 66. I ride in the Wasatch with my son, who is 39 years younger than me on trails that start at 6500 feet and top out at 9500 feet. Riding with my son, still, is more fun than I can imagine and I hope to continue into my 70's. But, I need every trick in the book to hang with him - or at least make it interesting for him.

    Also, I ride with my 65 year old "lovely bride" here and in Moab and St. George. While she is slower, riding with her is also incredibly rewarding, and I want to set her up for success. Anything that improves pedalling efficiency for her will make the ride more fun for her and, after being together for over 40 years, will make it more likely that, going into my 70's, she'll be there with me as well.

    Having gear that allows you to ride harder, faster and longer does not decrease the fun level!
    Last edited by MSU Alum; 3 Weeks Ago at 08:55 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hurricane Jeff View Post
    No one wins if there are no choices.

    Ive ridden and own 26", 27.5 and 29ers....I still prefer 27.5.

    I hear all the bs about 29ers being faster, which maybe they are at rollout( transition from a downhill to a flat) but that is very temporary or over rocky areas( baby head size), maybe a little faster. But 27.5 dominates in tight, twisty trails, both up and down, which consists of most of my riding.
    My main bike is a 170mm front, 160mm rear,DW link enduro bike, rolling 2.4 tires, which I use pretty much for everything, from xc to downhill, I dont think Id go back to my 130mm 29er. If I were strickly racing xc, I probably would be on a 29er, although in 2012 and 2013, I dominated the local xc scene riding a 27.5 xc bike.
    Funny story...all my friends ride 29ers and always tease me about riding 27.5. We did the Palm Canyon Epic a few weeks ago, there is a section in which a few of the riders stated that they havent, or seen anyone clear in the first try. I cleared it on my first try...I think after that ride, and clearing other sections, as well as hanging on the climbs, they had a little more respect for 27.5

    I believe and hope that 27.5 is here to stay, but with 29er DH bikes coming on strong, I dont know. AS it is now, we are in a better place because we do have a choice of wheel size.
    A lot of what you mentioned with competing against your friends has a lot to do with rider technique and skill.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

  67. #67
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    "Tired of that 'SUV feeling' of those wagon-wheels lumbering over all in its path? Want something that brings fun back to your biking, with rowdy, dynamic handling that puts an even bigger grin on your face? That is the promise of the new smaller wheel movement that manufacturers are now pursuing. Bike designer Mike Hunt recently told us, 'we hear riders say they like what 29ers bring to the game, in terms of overall speed and roll-over capability, but the same thing that makes those things possible bring with them design constraints, and a ride feel that, while hugely capable, isn't as dynamic as what you can get with a smaller wheeled bike. We are taking a no-holds barred approach to taking advantage of what 27.5" wheels allow, to bring our customers the most fun bikes on the planet.' After a period of strong dominance of the 29 in format, many manufacturers are now turning to 27.5 as the wheel size of the future..."
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  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by andytiedye View Post
    Still riding my old 26ers.

    Sent from my SM-P900 using Tapatalk
    My wife uses one, and when I hop on it now, it feels so odd to me! I went 29 some years ago.

    I raced an S-Works HT back in the day, and it was a rocket. Wish I held onto it, but sold it off to fund another bike.
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  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by tahoebeau View Post
    Full year mtb sales numbers for 2018 just came in and last year “there was a dramatic switch-over from sales of 27.5-inch full suspension bikes back to 29-inch full-suspension.”

    https://www.bicycleretailer.com/stud...s#.XE_pxySIahA

    Not really that surprising given that 29ers had just about doubled 27.5” sales last year already by October with BRAIN showing that by “October (2018), wholesalers sold $9.4 million in 29ers and only $5.6 million in 27.5-inch bikes.”

    And by November BRAIN was showing that “on the inventory side for mountain bikes, suppliers appear to have an excessive amount of 27.5-inch front-suspension bikes on hand. They had $25.1 million worth of those bikes in stock in November 2018, up from $16.5 million at the same time last year, a 52 percent increase. Sales in that category have been soft in 2018, down 17 percent YTD from 2017.”


    So does anyone see a shift back to the non-plus 27.5”?
    And if not, will/can the industry fully support the dying 27.5”wheel size?
    from what I can understand of that link is the value in dollar and not the number of bike.

    So it probably tells that people who buys 700 bikes pay a lot more than 650 bikes.
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  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by IPA Rider View Post
    "Tired of that 'SUV feeling' of those wagon-wheels lumbering over all in its path? Want something that brings fun back to your biking, with rowdy, dynamic handling that puts an even bigger grin on your face? That is the promise of the new smaller wheel movement that manufacturers are now pursuing. Bike designer Mike Hunt recently told us, 'we hear riders say they like what 29ers bring to the game, in terms of overall speed and roll-over capability, but the same thing that makes those things possible bring with them design constraints, and a ride feel that, while hugely capable, isn't as dynamic as what you can get with a smaller wheeled bike. We are taking a no-holds barred approach to taking advantage of what 26" wheels allow, to bring our customers the most fun bikes on the planet.' After a period of strong dominance of the 29 in format, many manufacturers are now turning to 26 as the wheel size of the future..."
    There , I corrected it for you
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  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hurricane Jeff View Post
    No one wins if there are no choices.

    Ive ridden and own 26", 27.5 and 29ers....I still prefer 27.5.

    I hear all the bs about 29ers being faster, which maybe they are at rollout( transition from a downhill to a flat) but that is very temporary or over rocky areas( baby head size), maybe a little faster. But 27.5 dominates in tight, twisty trails, both up and down, which consists of most of my riding.
    My main bike is a 170mm front, 160mm rear,DW link enduro bike, rolling 2.4 tires, which I use pretty much for everything, from xc to downhill, I dont think Id go back to my 130mm 29er. If I were strickly racing xc, I probably would be on a 29er, although in 2012 and 2013, I dominated the local xc scene riding a 27.5 xc bike.
    Funny story...all my friends ride 29ers and always tease me about riding 27.5. We did the Palm Canyon Epic a few weeks ago, there is a section in which a few of the riders stated that they havent, or seen anyone clear in the first try. I cleared it on my first try...I think after that ride, and clearing other sections, as well as hanging on the climbs, they had a little more respect for 27.5

    I believe and hope that 27.5 is here to stay, but with 29er DH bikes coming on strong, I dont know. AS it is now, we are in a better place because we do have a choice of wheel size.
    If you're the rider you claim to be, you'd be faster on the right 29er.

    They roll faster. There's not much else to it and nobody is going to deny it. When packaging in the right frame, they give up nothing while still rolling faster. If I wanted things to be harder, I'd start trail running.

    Some people don't realize you can like what you have while still acknowledging that something else might be better.

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by fokof View Post
    There , I corrected it for you
    indeed
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    Quote Originally Posted by richde View Post
    If you're the rider you claim to be, you'd be faster on the right 29er.

    They roll faster. There's not much else to it and nobody is going to deny it. When packaging in the right frame, they give up nothing while still rolling faster. If I wanted things to be harder, I'd start trail running.

    Some people don't realize you can like what you have while still acknowledging that something else might be better.
    Pick a wheel size and...
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  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Pick a wheel size and...
    I don't even have a traditional 29er, so try again. Different, more specialized 29ers, would be better for the things I use my bike for, but I don't want different, more specialized, bikes.

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by IPA Rider View Post
    "Tired of that 'SUV feeling' of those wagon-wheels lumbering over all in its path? Want something that brings fun back to your biking, with rowdy, dynamic handling that puts an even bigger grin on your face? That is the promise of the new smaller wheel movement that manufacturers are now pursuing. Bike designer Mike Hunt recently told us, 'we hear riders say they like what 29ers bring to the game, in terms of overall speed and roll-over capability, but the same thing that makes those things possible bring with them design constraints, and a ride feel that, while hugely capable, isn't as dynamic as what you can get with a smaller wheeled bike. We are taking a no-holds barred approach to taking advantage of what 27.5" wheels allow, to bring our customers the most fun bikes on the planet.' After a period of strong dominance of the 29 in format, many manufacturers are now turning to 27.5 as the wheel size of the future..."
    Are 29ers dead now?

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    I am riding a 27.5 hard tail. If I want a 29er, I would buy another bike... Maybe a FS one too....

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by richde View Post
    If you're the rider you claim to be, you'd be faster on the right 29er.

    They roll faster. There's not much else to it and nobody is going to deny it. When packaging in the right frame, they give up nothing while still rolling faster. If I wanted things to be harder, I'd start trail running.

    Some people don't realize you can like what you have while still acknowledging that something else might be better.
    This sounds all too familiar…
    Quote Originally Posted by Oh My Sack! View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wheelspeed View Post
    I just lived through what some of you are speculating. I'm a veteran rider of full-suspension 26ers. Last year I was in the market for a new bike, and felt like I wanted the "spunkiness" of a 27.5er instead of going to a 29er which I figured would be a little slower feeling due to geometry, having more tire, etc.

    Looking for a lightweight trail 27.5er proved difficult. They were all + bikes. Or pretty heavy for serious enduro. And a lot of them seemed to be 27.5" bikes with fat tires put on 29er frames and I didn't want that. I really couldn't find reasonably lightweight, 27.5" full-suspension bikes with a 2.3 or 2.4 tire and about 120mm suspension. The only ones closest to that were like dedicated xc bikes.

    Over the fall and winter I noticed some reviews of 29ers that had the latest geometry and supposedly handled very well. I found one that was pretty light, 2.3 tires, not overly suspended, and bought it. So, 27.5 lost that sale because no one seemed to make a high-quality "normal" trail bike. They were all pushing me to accept a 29er geometry with 27.5" fat tires, or overly built for enduro capability. (Okay, maybe there is one out there, but I mean walking into a bike shop and seeing what's on their floor or being able to demo one... and voicing my displeasure to several bike shop employees, they admitted there wasn't much out there like I was looking for. I guess I was looking for about a 7-year-old mindset 27.5" bike, but with modern 27.5" geometry, 1x11 or 1x12, Boost, 34 forks, etc.)
    Did you set 120mm as your maximum travel? Below that it seems pretty dedicated to 29 I agree. My favorite sector for a trail bike is 130mm travel and there are a few great options in that space - 5010, SB5, Evil Calling, etc. All pedal great and handle a wide variety of terrain.

    I hope you're happy on your 29 though. There are some great options out there now that weren't there even a couple of years ago. That said, I love my mid-travel 27.5 and hope it sticks around for a long time.

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by richde View Post
    ... you'd be faster on the right 29er.

    They roll faster. There's not much else to it and nobody is going to deny it...
    In my opinion, while that is true, it's only a part of what some of us (I don't pretend to know how many) ask of our bikes. If I strictly rode XC kinda trails, I might consider a 29 full time. But I don't. I like to (and commonly do) ride tight twisty stuff, with quick immediate and technical transitions from going up to going down... sometime in the middle of a tight turn. I am definitely slower on a 29 doing that as I am on a 27.5. Generally speaking, neither is better or worse. Each has its pros and cons for the particular situation. And whatever situation is the common occurrence should dictate what size fits best.

    This is kinda like wide bars. Everyone asks me why I always cut down my wide bars, "Wider is better!" they screech. I say, "that may be, wide bars do me no good when I can't fit between the trees". Again, it's about the situation, and whatever is most important to us that we ask of our equipment.

    Full suspension/hard tail, semi slick/knobby, 120mm/150mm... situation, expectation...
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    Quote Originally Posted by fredcook View Post
    In my opinion, while that is true, it's only a part of what some of us (I don't pretend to know how many) ask of our bikes. If I strictly rode XC kinda trails, I might consider a 29 full time. But I don't. I like to (and commonly do) ride tight twisty stuff, with quick immediate and technical transitions from going up to going down... sometime in the middle of a tight turn. I am definitely slower on a 29 doing that as I am on a 27.5. Generally speaking, neither is better or worse. Each has its pros and cons for the particular situation. And whatever situation is the common occurrence should dictate what size fits best.

    This is kinda like wide bars. Everyone asks me why I always cut down my wide bars, "Wider is better!" they screech. I say, "that may be, wide bars do me no good when I can't fit between the trees". Again, it's about the situation, and whatever is most important to us that we ask of our equipment.

    Full suspension/hard tail, semi slick/knobby, 120mm/150mm... situation, expectation...
    You're comparing complete bikes, not the wheels. Like I said, "When packaging in the right frame, they give up nothing while still rolling faster."

    I ride a Stache, which has the biggest tires you can get, and that bike can turn. I feel it, the reviews say it, my results say that. It can do that because of the frame. Stick those big wheels in a different frame, it's going to act differently. People thought the Full Stache would be the same as a Stache, just with full suspension...didn't turn out that way because the wheels aren't what make a bike, they just allow it to roll and grip.

  81. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by richde View Post
    You're comparing complete bikes, not the wheels. Like I said, "When packaging in the right frame, they give up nothing while still rolling faster."
    They give up acceleration (and arguably precision), which matters in slow, punchy tech riding where you don't often find yourself just rolling along at speed. Stall moves and trials hops are a still a thing around here on tech trails, and bigger wheels don't like that stuff as much as small wheels do IME.
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  82. #82
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    New trend- wagon wheel emtbs. Stamp it.😂
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    They give up acceleration (and arguably precision), which matters in slow, punchy tech riding where you don't often find yourself just rolling along at speed. Stall moves and trials hops are a still a thing around here on tech trails, and bigger wheels don't like that stuff as much as small wheels do IME.
    No, they really don't. When you accelerate, you accelerate your wheels, the rest of your bike, your body, and all the crap you carry, a few ounces here and there simply don't matter...especially when you consider that they CARRY more speed.

    That theory might work with cars, when you have 40lbs of wheel and tire rotating however fast they have to rotate to reach car racing speeds, all that mass IS going to affect braking. But bikes are light, and slow, so the benefits far outweigh any tiny cost. Besides, it's not as if race cars use SMALLER wheels, they just want LIGHTER wheels. They could easily get lighter wheels by using a smaller size, but they don't do that.

    If that was the case, you'd see smaller wheels in XCO racing. But you don't, do you? That's actually the place where everyone agrees that 29ers work best. Crazy, huh?

  84. #84
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    What ever wheel size you roll, you're biking... you win.
    I don't know why,... it's just MUSS easier to pedal than the other ones.

  85. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by richde View Post
    No, they really don't.
    Sure. Screw physics, right?

    A few ounces farther from the hub matter just as much as a very slightly better angle of attack on "obstacles" smaller than 6" I'd say. The whole rollover advantage of big matters less and less as speeds go down and obstacles turn into actual obstacles rather than just chatter. Or do you see 29ers taking over trials too?
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  86. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by richde View Post
    They roll faster. There's not much else to it...
    only if you are riding in a straight line...


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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    S The whole rollover advantage of big matters less and less as speeds go down and obstacles turn into actual obstacles rather than just chatter.
    ^This^ plus the advantage which stiff/light carbon wheels provide makes it very confusing. Some 29'rs seem to deal with slow speeds better than others, the difference is in the wheels. Now I'm dying to ride a Stache and see the light too.
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  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by jim c View Post
    ^This^ plus the advantage which stiff/light carbon wheels provide makes it very confusing. Some 29'rs seem to deal with slow speeds better than others, the difference is in the wheels. Now I'm dying to ride a Stache and see the light too.
    signed Not Convinced Yet
    My Stache, which is closer to a 31er, turns much quicker than any of my 26ers ever did. I wouldn't want it to turn much quicker if possible - maybe just a touch and I could probably get there by moving the rear tire up a little more in the dropout. It also rolls over obstacles much better. The only downside is it weighs as much as a F/S bike, but I never notice when riding. It's all about the full package. Geometry has come a long way from the early 29er days.

  89. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Sure. Screw physics, right?

    A few ounces farther from the hub matter just as much as a very slightly better angle of attack on "obstacles" smaller than 6" I'd say. The whole rollover advantage of big matters less and less as speeds go down and obstacles turn into actual obstacles rather than just chatter. Or do you see 29ers taking over trials too?
    Screw physics, that's what you're doing.

    Do race cars use smaller wheels? No. What about mountain bike racing where acceleration is crucial? Nope, that doesn't work either. So you drop that argument.

    Next up is that only 6" obstacles matter, those are going to stop any wheel. What matters isn't the rare big rock you run into, it's the countless small ones that 29ers will undeniably roll over easier that matters. That's why they roll faster, not because they'll go up a curb so much easier, but because those thousands of little pebbles/roots/whatever everyone runs over don't slow them down as much as they do a smaller wheel.

    This isn't just my opinion, and I didn't come up with it, this is what people who depend on these things think and do. So excuse me if I find your keyboard vomit unconvincing.

    Why don't trials bikes use big wheels? Because rollover doesn't matter in that application and you can't fit them in a frame optimized for trials riding. It may be possible to package them in that way, but why reinvent the wheel?

    The way you'll twist and turn your easily dismissed arguments, because they're based on motivated reasoning, is very entertaining btw.

  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by .WestCoastHucker. View Post
    only if you are riding in a straight line...
    Nope, they're faster on the straights, more grip in corners, faster overall.

    Quote Originally Posted by jim c View Post
    ^This^ plus the advantage which stiff/light carbon wheels provide makes it very confusing. Some 29'rs seem to deal with slow speeds better than others, the difference is in the wheels. Now I'm dying to ride a Stache and see the light too.
    signed Not Convinced Yet
    You should try it, and give it a real chance, because they definitely got the geometry right.

    Quote Originally Posted by goldsbar View Post
    My Stache, which is closer to a 31er, turns much quicker than any of my 26ers ever did. I wouldn't want it to turn much quicker if possible - maybe just a touch and I could probably get there by moving the rear tire up a little more in the dropout. It also rolls over obstacles much better. The only downside is it weighs as much as a F/S bike, but I never notice when riding. It's all about the full package. Geometry has come a long way from the early 29er days.
    It's the bike that dispels all the bunk being thrown around the internet about wheelsize. Definitely move the dropouts up, it becomes even more of a hooligan machine. A little less stable under heavy braking, but worth it.

  91. #91
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    Since tire width/volume/compound/tread is obviously way more important to how a bike rides than the ETRTO, that's what I decided to pay attention to.

  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by richde View Post
    Screw physics, that's what you're doing.

    Do race cars use smaller wheels? No. What about mountain bike racing where acceleration is crucial? Nope, that doesn't work either. So you drop that argument.

    Next up is that only 6" obstacles matter, those are going to stop any wheel. What matters isn't the rare big rock you run into, it's the countless small ones that 29ers will undeniably roll over easier that matters. That's why they roll faster, not because they'll go up a curb so much easier, but because those thousands of little pebbles/roots/whatever everyone runs over don't slow them down as much as they do a smaller wheel.

    This isn't just my opinion, and I didn't come up with it, this is what people who depend on these things think and do. So excuse me if I find your keyboard vomit unconvincing.

    Why don't trials bikes use big wheels? Because rollover doesn't matter in that application and you can't fit them in a frame optimized for trials riding. It may be possible to package them in that way, but why reinvent the wheel?

    The way you'll twist and turn your easily dismissed arguments, because they're based on motivated reasoning, is very entertaining btw.
    So you say what matters with cars doesn't matter with bikes, then go ahead and use what matters with cars as an example in multiple posts? Uh...okay.

    Maybe where you ride, things are generally very smooth and you rarely run into anything bigger than six inches. Not like that where I ride. We have lots of actual obstacles, not just chatter. Granite glacial erratics and till all over the place, and our trail builders love to incorporate them. The closer things get to a slightly bumpy sidewalk, the more bigger wheels' advantages matter (and the more boring things are).

    Don't care about convincing you, or about XC racing. You obviously are stuck with mainly non-technical terrain where you ride, so keep sitting and rolling those wagon wheels along as fast as you want Speedy.
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  93. #93
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    Ride what you have. If you're shopping for a bike, ride what appeals to you most.

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    I dont agree....and yes Im the rider I claim to be, whatever that meant.

    I believe that there are some places where 29ers are faster and places where 27.5 are faster...hell, probably places 26ers are faster, but for most of the places I ride, I think the 27.5 is faster, or just as fast in most places.

    I have a running joke with my friends who say that I should ride 29ers exclusisely, because they claim they are faster, my response is " you should be glad that I am riding 27.5, because if 29ers are faster as they claim, Id be way ahead of them on rides"
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  95. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    Aren't they bringing out 28ers?
    So, did 29ers win? We going back to 1 wheel size again?-28er.jpg

    Waaaaaayyyy ahead of you.
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  96. #96
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    99% of the riders I know either ride 29ers or 27.5+ (2.6" or 2.8"). I personally liked the 29er revolution earlier in this decade (I owned a 2011 Trek Rumblefish for 3 years), but 27.5+ has more grip/speed/maneuverability of any 29er I've ever seen or heard of. I personally will never go back to 29ers.
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  97. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thustlewhumber View Post
    but 27.5+ has more grip/speed/maneuverability of any 29er I've ever seen or heard of. I personally will never go back to 29ers.
    That's why you never see racers on 29ers, they're all on plus bikes. DH, enduro, XC... all on 27.5+. I just ordered the Santa Cruz V10 with 27.5x3.0 tires. Should compliment my XC race fat bike well.

  98. #98
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    The current “trend” is going back to 29ers with improved geometry, obviously. But who cares who’s faster? Unless you’re getting paid to ride, it’s just a hobby.
    Last edited by Gutch; 3 Weeks Ago at 09:01 PM. Reason: Spell check!
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    I thought it was all about the rider?
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  100. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    The current “trend” is going back to 29ers with improved geography, obviously.

    Improved geography is probably the best thing for increasing my mtb enjoyment.
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