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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post
    Take the same frame engineering, and apply it to a bike that gets the proportions between the rear center and front center dialed in better...

    My estimated sweet spot proportions*, that get the rider well centered without needing to hang far off the back or need to purposely weight the front:
    None of my short (or tall or any other size) friends need to hang far off the back or the opposite, they ride balanced
    - and move accordingly to stay balanced - with great flow while being comfortable on the bike with no troubles you keep describing.

    Again, it is your skills, not your bike. Learn the basics and you will realize that. Kind of like you would want to design a rifle that always hits the target without you having to aim or learn the skills to hit the target.
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  2. #102
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    Ninji, are you trying to win a bet with the most words posted in the shortest time in one thread?

  3. #103
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    Attack position for e-bikers...


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    You can't get a suntan on the moon...

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crankout View Post
    Attack position for e-bikers...


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    That right there shows when E-bikes are wonderful.
    MERCY! MERCY! MERCY!

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by MOJO K View Post
    That right there shows when E-bikes are wonderful.
    Absolutely. She's getting in her KOM's.
    You can't get a suntan on the moon...

  6. #106
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    I rode this trail last Sunday and landed a jump pretty smooth. I went and hit it again and I didn't land as smoothly as the first time.

    Then I went home and drank beer.
    Riding Washington State singletrack since 1986

  7. #107
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    The upright position is important, because at a certain angle, your head and upper body weight must be supported by your hands and back. That leads to fatigue and leads to you fighting yourself when you want to put pressure on the bars specifically to control the bike.

    That's the main reason I suggested raising the grip height, in order to tilt the upper body back so the upper body weight is more supported by the legs/feet. I tried to imply that through the saying, "light hands, heavy feet," but people like their aero positioning.

    I'd like for friends to be able to ride 6+ hours, to enjoy camaraderie, on truly epic trails, more naturally/intuitively. Had one friend fall off the side of a hillside because they were exhausted, close to the end. He works as a doctor and doesn't have time to spend countless hours adapting to one position, and narrowing down options of future bikes allow them to use such ingrained adaptation...

    Should the attack/ready position be comfortable? What should it look like?-0106191333c.jpg
    - find the rider... this could happen when your back and upper body is exhausted

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post
    I'd like for friends to be able to ride 6+ hours, to enjoy camaraderie, on truly epic trails, more naturally/intuitively. Had one friend fall off the side of a hillside because they were exhausted, close to the end. He works as a doctor and doesn't have time to spend countless hours adapting to one position, and narrowing down options of future bikes allow them to use such ingrained adaptation...
    Your bs ideas aren't going to fix this. If you want to do huge rides, you have to put the work in to be able to do huge rides. Conversely, if you're planning a big trip with people who aren't up to big miles, big elevation, or big tech, then you have to plan around the slowest, least fit, least skilled rider to ensure that they're safe and that they have fun.

    Why not just get him an emtb? That's where this is going, really.

    Why not just get him one of those exo-suits that DARPA has been testing so that he can do ultra distance running without training while you're at it.

  9. #109
    the discerning hooligan
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    You know what? Iím beginning to turn around on this. I want Ninjichor to build his magical bicycle and prove once and for all that all of us, and the entirety of the industryís research and engineering have missed the obvious..
    MERCY! MERCY! MERCY!

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post
    I'd like for friends to be able to ride 6+ hours, to enjoy camaraderie, on truly epic trails, more naturally/intuitively. Had one friend fall off the side of a hillside because they were exhausted, close to the end.
    Dude, pull your head out of your ass. You're not going to build a better mousetrap that will magically remove the fatigue factor from a 6+ hour out in the sun and wind, pedaling a bicycle. It's about fitness.

    An eMTB would help, but the battery will likely die before the day is done, so pushing the extra weight around would still cause that fatigue, so that's not the answer.

    Maybe you should work on the magic fitness pill; you'll get the same results as your magic geometry and, since we'll all buy both the pill and the bike, you'll get filthy rich!

  11. #111
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    He has the legs. He's all for climbs, mileage, and elevation. We did Noble Canyon together before which was about 5 hours, though he lagged on the descents. He didn't have the upper body muscular endurance to handle this much rough terrain. Watching him, he's often super defensive, trying not to go over-the-bars. We even took a shorter way out of this particular trail, Palm Canyon Epic (Art's Johnson?), since we had some newcomers.

    I already have a proto under production and becoming more and more confident in my ideas. I might go as far as saying stem length will return as a tuning element, in which shorter is not always better, instead just being a way to get the grips in an ideal spot. I plan on taking a lot of 3rd person side-perspective slow-mo videos of myself riding, to check my fore-aft positioning, and the angle of my back & arms, on various features with the proto. Not sure what # I am in the queue, but maybe up to 6 weeks.

    Regarding magic fitness pill, I do have my own energy drink mix, though I don't make it commercially. Got all the needed ingredients in my cupboard: maltodextrin, sucrose, sodium citrate, potassium chloride, citric acid, etc. Got a dozen containers pre-mixed ready to refill a gallon shake bottle, so I don't go on any ride without it.

    This isn't a racers' bike. It's 3.9 kg frame only. That'll put it over 8 lbs with shock. I don't know why people judge things in accordance with the racing-centric side of the industry--just jonesing to ride trails, sharing the experience with friends. We don't care about ranking, or ego-centric stuff. Newbie, expert, whatever label people call us, we just celebrate finishing safely and practice being grateful to the predecessors that provided all this for us. We salute them by enjoying the view from atop their shoulders.

    Just looking for constructive feedback. Can only tolerate so many negative nancy/debbie downer responses and insults. I like the "lazy position" idea.

  12. #112
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    Well, it sounds like I don't have to do months of training for my enduro races. I will just raise the grip height on my bike and I should podium finish easily.
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  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post
    ...
    I plan on taking a lot of 3rd person side-perspective slow-mo videos of myself riding, to check my fore-aft positioning, and the angle of my back & arms, on various features with the proto. ...
    Please do this right now on your current bike, as well as with other riders on their bikes. Then repeat with same riders, same trail features, on the new bike. I really think it will shed a lot of light on this project.

    Re: fatigue - I have ridden with very fit people who are not very good bike handlers, and less fit people who are very good bike handlers. This was more common in the early days of MTBing when many XC riders were former roadies, but many other MTBers were former BMXers - these days there seems to be more technically capable XC riders out there. In terrain where pedaling is the focus, the less fit riders suffer. But in terrain where bike handling is the focus, the very fit people are often completely gassed early on due to their inefficiency in negotiating the terrain.

    -F
    It's never easier - you just go faster.

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Battery View Post
    Well, it sounds like I don't have to do months of training for my enduro races. I will just raise the grip height on my bike and I should podium finish easily.
    Ninji is a man with a very specific plan.
    You can't get a suntan on the moon...

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Battery View Post
    Well, it sounds like I don't have to do months of training for my enduro races. I will just raise the grip height on my bike and I should podium finish easily.
    Then try this!

    Should the attack/ready position be comfortable? What should it look like?-tonysilversaventura1982.jpg

    ...or this!
    Should the attack/ready position be comfortable? What should it look like?-1-dsc09366_orig.jpg
    (it has a dropper, so it's legit)



    -F
    It's never easier - you just go faster.

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post
    ...
    I'd like for friends to be able to ride 6+ hours, to enjoy camaraderie, on truly epic trails, more naturally/intuitively. Had one friend fall off the side of a hillside because they were exhausted, close to the end. He works as a doctor and doesn't have time to spend countless hours adapting to one position, and narrowing down options of future bikes allow them to use such ingrained adaptation...
    ok this comment is just silly. You are taking an untrained rider out for a 6+ hr ride and wondering why they are fatigued? Dude are you serious? They are fatigued since they are not fit. Riding 6hrs is not easy. It is hard and takes training. No level of " bike fit" is going to make that easy. Heck sit in an airplane seat for 6 hrs and you will be fatigued. Even your "easy" chair at home.

    Really it sucks the rider had an issue, but blaming the bike for that is just silly.
    Joe
    '18 Specialized Epic 29", Vassago Verhauen SS 29", '13 Santa Cruz Solo 27.5", XC, AM, blah blah blah.. I just ride.

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post
    He has the legs. He's all for climbs, mileage, and elevation. We did Noble Canyon together before which was about 5 hours, though he lagged on the descents. He didn't have the upper body muscular endurance to handle this much rough terrain. Watching him, he's often super defensive, trying not to go over-the-bars. We even took a shorter way out of this particular trail, Palm Canyon Epic (Art's Johnson?), since we had some newcomers.
    doesn't matter if it's upper body fitness or lower body fitness. you need to build it up before doing huge rides. changing the bike geometry isn't going to change that.

    if we're talking static position seated riding, giving people a comfortable handlebar height can make improvements in fatigue. But that's what professional bike fitting is for. Don't need to design a whole new frame to accomplish that. But you have to keep in mind that screwing around with that on a mountain bike is going to strongly alter the handling of the bike. A dynamic upper body is KEY to mountain biking on technical terrain. Take away the dynamic upper body and the bike is going to ride like shit on technical trails.

  18. #118
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    How about this: ask a question regarding what you don't understand, rather than assume. Your assumptions are just plain off.

    I'm suggesting tweaking geo to make it so the optimal position to handle the bike is comfortable. I want the upper body to be minimally engaged, no death gripping, less hunched over, and not holding onto the bars to keep from falling off the back. Just a light grip, in a centralized position that gets the bike to have well distributed traction on both wheels, both sitting and just standing up. Can just maintain a position relative to the horizon/gravity, that puts your CoM right over the center point between the wheels. Good proof-of-concept would be if I can do a no-hander off a tall curb, both sitting and standing--if too much weight is on the front, the front wheel will dive, and if too little, the front would risk bouncing/losing control, while I imagine just-right would land without bouncing or drama. Not sure if people have the impression that is almost impossible, especially for a first attempt, but I recognize that small possibility and will aim for it.

    I did say something along the lines of taking away the need to assume uncomfortable positions where you can find balance and traction. That doesn't mean I'm taking away "dynamic upper body". There's a difference between holding an uncomfortable position and executing a momentary technique that involves shifting your body from a more comfortable position.

    I know it's hard to imagine if you haven't experienced it. If you tried to get into the position that I'm suggestion on your current bike, I wouldn't doubt that it'd ride like shit, at least if you're on a 29er with long CS and steep HA. There are bikes that do allow for the position I'm suggesting, but they tend to be size L 27.5 bikes, and people have their grips set really low and not far enough, seemingly out of principle. It's like grip height must be below saddle height, and stems should be as short as possible... anyone got a rational reason for this, for all around handling and comfort? These L 27.5 bikes that get the standing position good, if a bit cramped, have the seated position a bit too far back, IMO.

    Brands are going longer reach and steeper STA, but they haven't got all the proportions dialed in, in the bigger picture. They're all starting with target features, like I want 435mm chainstays and 77d STA; 500mm reach is way too long, so we'll increase them by 20-40mm as it's still better and it balances out the modest STA increase. Buyers are attracted to what has previously worked, afraid of going too different due to trade-offs they're unwilling to accept for whatever gain they might have--this is basic cognitive bias for familiarity. I'm skipping this, like some might have wanted to skip Boost, since it didn't seem to be that big of a improvement, and finding end-game geo. Brands don't make money off of pioneering by itself, they make it off of capitalizing on it when the market is accepting of it.

    I can redesign my proto with shorter wheelbase and shorter travel once I prove the concept. I don't have money for 10k carbon molds, nor the patience to find a partner to do small batches of it at an appealing price, nor have the knowledge to do on my own (1-off hand-laid wet carbon like Zerode). I doubt I'm up for the challenge of making a full size range though, maybe just 2 sizes/versions to account for different body shapes/sizes.

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post
    I like the "lazy position" idea.
    Lemme know if you need any testers!
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  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Lemme know if you need any testers!
    Taking it to 'Nam? 6+ hours there and you'll know if Ninji is onto something or if you need X-rays, right?
    MERCY! MERCY! MERCY!

  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post
    How about this: ask a question regarding what you don't understand, rather than assume. Your assumptions are just plain off.

    I'm suggesting tweaking geo to make it so the optimal position to handle the bike is comfortable. I want the upper body to be minimally engaged, no death gripping, less hunched over, and not holding onto the bars to keep from falling off the back. Just a light grip, in a centralization position that gets the bike to have well distributed traction on both wheels, both sitting and just standing up. Can just maintain a position relative to the horizon/gravity, that puts your CoM right over the center point between the wheels. Good proof-of-concept would be if I can do a no-hander off a tall curb, both sitting and standing--if too much weight is on the front, it'd dive, and if too little, the front would risk losing control.

    I did say something along the lines of taking away the need to assume uncomfortable positions where you can find balance and traction. That doesn't mean I'm taking away "dynamic upper body". There's a difference between holding an uncomfortable position and executing a momentary technique that involves shifting your body from a more comfortable position.

    I know it's hard to imagine if you haven't experienced it. If you tried to get into the position that I'm suggestion on your current bike, I wouldn't doubt that it'd ride like shit, at least if you're on a 29er with long CS and steep HA. There are bikes that do allow for the position I'm suggesting, but they tend to be size L 27.5 bikes, and people have their grips set really low and not far enough, seemingly out of principle. It's like grip height must be below saddle height, and stems should be as short as possible... anyone got a rational reason for this, for all around handling and comfort? These L 27.5 bikes that get the standing position good, if a bit cramped, have the seated position a bit too far back, IMO.

    Brands are going longer reach and steeper STA, but they haven't got all the proportions dialed in, in the bigger picture. They're all starting with target features, like I want 435mm chainstays and 77d STA; 500mm reach is way too long, so we'll increase them by 20-40mm as it's still better and it balances out the modest STA increase. Buyers are attracted to what has previously worked, afraid of going too different due to trade-offs they're unwilling to accept for whatever gain they might have--this is basic cognitive bias for familiarity. I'm skipping this, like some might have wanted to skip Boost, since it didn't seem to be that big of a improvement, and finding end-game geo. Brands don't make money off of pioneering by itself, they make it off of capitalizing on it when the market is accepting of it.

    I can redesign my proto with shorter wheelbase and shorter travel once I prove the concept. I don't have money for 10k carbon molds, nor the patience to find a partner to do small batches of it at an appealing price, nor have the knowledge to do on my own (1-off hand-laid wet carbon like Zerode).
    The upper body MUST be engaged. It provides stability and balance. And as the terrain changes, the balance point will change, too. You can certainly make a bike that has a balanced position whether seated or standing (assuming you stand perfectly straight, over the saddle, in the exact position you design for, of course), but not one that is balanced with a rider in all terrain conditions. Come to think of it, they already have bikes that are balanced for flat terrain - townies and beach cruisers. When tilted up, the balance point is different than when tilted down. Unless you're making a "transformer", riders will have to provide that balance adjustment with body movement.

    Again, you and your friends need to get some coaching so you can learn proper riding technique and positioning. So you can learn how not to need your death grip on the handlebars when riding in varying terrain. Yes, it is possible. And when you learn how to do it, more efficient and more fun. Being less hunched over will be counter productive in rough terrain because it makes your moment arm much longer and therefore overall less stable. Getting low - or hunched over - reduces that moment arm by lowering the CoM, increasing stability.

    Do you want to make a pair of skis that handle all the terrain changes, too, so all you have to do is stand there and not engage your legs?

    Or design a rowing shell where you don't have to grip the oar(s) and "hunch" your back and bend your legs as you go through your motions?

    Dynamic activities require dynamic positioning. Learn how to do it right before you try and improve on bike geometry. Otherwise, your product is going to be good for riding in exactly one, and only one, condition.

  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post
    ... Just a light grip, in a centralized position that gets the bike to have well distributed traction on both wheels, both sitting and just standing up. ...

    If you tried to get into the position that I'm suggestion on your current bike, I wouldn't doubt that it'd ride like shit, at least if you're on a 29er with long CS and steep HA...

    Hmm I get in that position all the time. On my 29er a 2018 Epic and it handles really well. Same for my 29er SS HT and my 27.5 5" bike. The 27.5 bike handles the worst of all of them though. All my seats heights are above my bars. If you as for a rational reason for this it is simple. Seat height is dictated by needs for leg extension to get maximum power with some compensation for room to move on fixed seat post bikes (2 of my 3). Bar height is set by needing to be low enough to get good front bite when cornering and climbing steeps. On my Singlespeed bar height is also influenced by need to get max power when standing. Too high/low will impact how I can transfer power in high torque situations. Bar height and seat height are pretty easy to deal with on most bikes when you pick the appropriate frame size.

    I still don't know what you are tying to do other than you need a good bike fit.
    Joe
    '18 Specialized Epic 29", Vassago Verhauen SS 29", '13 Santa Cruz Solo 27.5", XC, AM, blah blah blah.. I just ride.

  23. #123
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    I relate the grip height and distance to the hips, rather than the saddle, since I try account for both standing and sitting weight distro. I suspect that people spend 80-95% of their time sitting in the saddle because they dial in the bike for that position, compromising on standing.

    The more you angle your torso forward, the more weight you are putting onto the front. A stretched position like this when seated, offsets a slack STA (73), which generally has your CoM closer to over the BB. Old 29ers were balanced according to this seated position, from my experience. I don't know the '18 Epic (HT or FS?), but '18 sounds like there's a chance that it got shorter CS due to boost and slacker HA and reach, and maybe steeper STA due to trends.

    On these 73d STA bike, switching to a standing pedaling position moves your CoM way forward, which makes the bike now have noticeably front-heavy weight bias. You can compensate by tilting your legs back away from your standing pedaling position in sections in which a front-heavy weight bias is detrimental. From this tilted-back position, you can further shift weight back to unweight the front over obstacles, but you'd likely have to shift forward to unweight the rear too, esp if you run low pressures and don't want to damage a tire/rim. Doing this might not possible if consecutive bumps are coming fast.

    If you find the right amount of tilt, you can just plow from a fairly static balanced position. This spot takes practice to find repeatedly, and if you switch between bikes you're often left hunting for it. It changes as the bike pitches up and down, especially if you use a different position to brace for heavy braking. If you are a little too far back, the front wheel can easily be deflected, perhaps prompting an overcompensating panic move to get back forward; a little too far forward and the front can hang-up on obstacles and make your body "lurch" forward, further worsening the problem. The "dynamic" movement is chaotic, IMO.

    What if that "right amount of tilt" is just plainly standing straight up, or in a squat/dead-lift position, with your CoM aligned with gravity to be centered between the tire contact patches? This is an infinitesimally small spot, hence why none have proven to consistently find it--they find it by coincidence and trial-and-error (in specific sizes), made even harder as you also have to account for differing body size proportions. Grip position is a big variable that they expect the rider to tune, but I doubt a majority do this. I highly doubt the fitting industry has it figured out. I'm prepared to do science to find it. It might sound outrageous, but changing stem, bar, and spacer height, even 5mm, has a noticeable effect on fit and comfort. Finding the optimal compromise... I hope to better define such position/fit dialing guidelines, and simplify it as much as possible.

    The upper body doesn't need to be engaged all the time. It should be prepared to anticipate the trail, to lean the bike and steer, to loft the bike over taller obstacles, to clear a gap, etc. Allow the bike to pitch by itself while you angle your torso to weight each wheel as much as it needs to be. I have geo thought-out in advance, expecting the rider's torso to be pretty much level with the horizon when they are descending, to put enough weight on the front wheel to have control. By carefully adjusting the FC to RC proportions, I can make the rider naturally put more or less weight on the front wheel with what I consider a natural/comfortable position.

    The industry is taking baby steps in this direction. I'm basically predicting where it'll end up at. How about a bike that doesn't need instructions, nor "coaching"? Shouldn't the coaching be to make your time spent be more efficient, to progress faster and safer, not to merely learn the most basic of basics? I hear coaches saying you have to unlearn a ton of stuff because of bad habits developed on poorly designed bikes, like entry level 29er hardtails like the Diamondback Hook. I'd be more inclined to recommend a bike with more modern geo to newbies, able to give more precise rational reasons other than vaguely saying it's "better", "less outdated in comparison", "has more features" (in the long checklist of features you desire), or whatever.

    My friend would be insulted if I suggested him to get coaching. This thread's not about us, it's about whether people think the ready position should be comfortable or not. Some think you need to work hard just to maintain a position that allows them to plow, corner, jump, drop, etc.. I was hoping more have experienced and are spoiled by bikes that make it more effortless to hold such a position. There's examples of this in other threads, particularly ones discussing the newest enduro bikes. Not sure why people are so Debbie Downer in this thread. Ego, comparing yourself to some guy, who posts walls-of-text, without formal expertise, is trying to challenge the status quo, and doubt that can happen, since you find it yourself to be an unimaginable tough challenge? Can't go far, if he's "complaining" about basic "dynamic movement", needing to get over that hump first? I don't discount that you guys are able to finding good positioning easily. I've just taken this a bit far, attempting to answer the question, "if you can only have one mtb for the next 10 years, what would it be?"

  24. #124
    the discerning hooligan
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  25. #125
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    You can't eliminate the learning/fitness curve. You just can't do it. Every rider needs to find the right balance and comfort point on the bike and it is driven by a number of factors including flexibility and fitness. The less flexibility and less fitness the more effort it will take to get a good balance. Also the less confident you are in your skills the more effort it takes to ride. There is no single attack/ready position. If you think there is just one you will really struggle.

    The thing to remember is most of the body weight needs to be on the pedals. When descending you want this and when climbing. Even if you are sitting you will find that at high seated power your putting most of your weight through the pedals and not as much on your seat. Most new riders tend to use the seat too much to carry weight and when they stand they putt to much weight on the bars. Then the further compound this by trying to maintain a fixed relationship between them and the bike. This in fact takes more effort than "heavy feet and light hands" and letting the bike move under you. 90% of this is learning the skill and not as much related to bike fit. Of course if the bike fit is jacked up you will have issues, but most of that is adjustable. As for not needing to learn.... you would be amazed at what people don't know and often their ego lets them down.

    I used be high performance driving instructor and it was amazing how some people thought they were skilled and just were not. There is so much to learn about driving a car fast and safely on race track that it takes years. What an experienced driver can do with 75% effort is shocking to most new drivers. I remember taking a student on a drive and calmly telling him he needed to counter steer because we were about spin. He had no idea what to so a gentle tug on the wheel from the passengers seat and all was corrected and the car barely moved. I knew this because I could feel what was happening long before he could. My senses were tuned and his were dull. This is a learned skill. Bike riding is similar in that so much is feeling and there is a lot related to skill. Personally I would love to have skills coach look at my riding and tell me what I am doing wrong. I am sure there are number of things I can improve. That said I am faster and more skilled than most. I suspect improvements would be very limited related to bike fit and a lot more on technique.
    Joe
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  26. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by MOJO K View Post
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    This!

    Have fun guys!
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  27. #127
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    I just have to wonder why we keep getting sucked into this thread. ninja is obviously smarter and he and his friends are much better riders than the rest of us (they'd get offended if coaching were suggested, after all), so the rest of us have no idea what we're taking about. And meanwhile, he's already devised a magic potion to prevent fatigue and has designed the magic bike that will cure all the ills of mountain biking. Something teams of engineers focused on bikes all the time, with the resources of large bike companies at their disposal apparently haven't been able to do right, so far.

    You sound like Mad Mike, the flat earther building his own rocket to prove the earth is flat.

  28. #128
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    seems like a good thread for some "trust me, I'm an engineer" memes.


  29. #129
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    You could build a wall out of some of these ****ing posts.
    ITMFA

  30. #130
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    I decided to raise my grip height for this upcoming race season. We shall see how this works...

    Should the attack/ready position be comfortable? What should it look like?-1k0.jpg
    You can't get a suntan on the moon...

  31. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crankout View Post
    I decided to raise my grip height for this upcoming race season. We shall see how this works...

    Click image for larger version. 

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    those tires look light

  32. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post
    I want the upper body to be efficiently engaged, no death gripping, less hunched over, and not holding onto the bars to keep from falling off the back. Just a light grip, in a centralized position that gets the bike to have well distributed traction on both wheels, both sitting and just standing up. Can just maintain a position relative to the horizon/gravity, that puts your CoM right over the center point between the wheels.
    Crazily, I've been able to achieve this on just about every bike I've ever owned-road, MTB, 26" 27.5" and 29ers.
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  33. #133
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    I was thinking that the first sentence is my plan when out drinking.

  34. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by JackWare View Post
    I was thinking that the first sentence is my plan when out drinking.
    I know it's early, but I'm locking this in for the "Post of the Year"!
    MERCY! MERCY! MERCY!

  35. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by the one ring View Post
    You could build a wall out of some of these ****ing posts.
    Yeah, who reads that shit? This site should have a 2 paragraph max cut off. Unless itís me posting of course.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

  36. #136
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    The thread is dying and it was entertaining to a point, so lets keep giong.

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post
    I suspect that people spend 80-95% of their time sitting in the saddle because they dial in the bike for that position, compromising on standing.

    On these 73d STA bike, switching to a standing pedaling position moves your CoM way forward, which makes the bike now have noticeably front-heavy weight bias. You can compensate by tilting your legs back away from your standing pedaling position in sections in which a front-heavy weight bias is detrimental. From this tilted-back position, you can further shift weight back to unweight the front over obstacles, but you'd likely have to shift forward to unweight the rear too, esp if you run low pressures and don't want to damage a tire/rim. Doing this might not possible if consecutive bumps are coming fast.


    My friend would be insulted if I suggested him to get coaching.
    People spend 80% of their time sitting, because they spend 80% of their time just pedaling to get somewhere.

    You don't tilt your legs, you drop your heels.

    If anyone is insulted by suggesting he needs coaching, then he definitely needs coaching.
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  37. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by nya View Post
    If anyone is insulted by suggesting he needs coaching, then he definitely needs coaching.
    Great point. Probably also needs a piece of humble pie, too.

  38. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    Great point. Probably also needs a piece of humble pie, too.



    And a warm cup of shut the **** up to go with it.
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  39. #139
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    Should the attack/ready position be comfortable? What should it look like?-1idqh8.jpg
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  40. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    those tires look light
    I would like to add that whitewall tires improve efficiency.
    You can't get a suntan on the moon...

  41. #141
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    Just because itís been two days since anyone posted in here, thatís why.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

  42. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    Just because itís been two days since anyone posted in here, thatís why.

    Not cool dude, not cool.

    What, you're feeling too unbalanced in your day that you felt it necessary to post?
    Belt too tight making you too uncomfortable?

    Deep breath and you'll find a comfortable balance to the rest of your day.

  43. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forest Rider View Post
    Not cool dude, not cool.

    What, you're feeling too unbalanced in your day that you felt it necessary to post?
    Belt too tight making you too uncomfortable?

    Deep breath and you'll find a comfortable balance to the rest of your day.
    Donít you have a forest to go rake?
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

  44. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    Donít you have a forest to go rake?
    Sorry. That was meant to be a sarcastic joke since this thread was meant to be about comfort and finding a perfectly balanced bike.

  45. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forest Rider View Post
    Sorry. That was meant to be a sarcastic joke since this thread was meant to be about comfort and finding a perfectly balanced bike.
    I took it that way and so was my comment. We both needed to use a little winky dude in there, like this > .
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

  46. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    I took it that way and so was my comment. We both needed to use a little winky dude in there, like this > .
    haha okay. I thought so but had just enough of uncertainty.

  47. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    Donít you have a forest to go rake?
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  48. #148
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    Like.
    haha

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    I don't have much to ad besides the fact I was going to post a photo of Sam Hill as a perfect ideological position to be on a bike and came across this:

    https://www.leelikesbikes.com/team-c...positions.html

    To my 'untrained' eye, but having ridden with and see several top level pro's ride in person, Sam seems to have a good blend of power, balance and effortless riding style that is fairly unique.

  50. #150
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    *Comment edited/deleted*
    Last edited by PJJ205; 2 Days Ago at 06:45 PM. Reason: Misunderstanding

  51. #151
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    Here's a 65 year old rider, who's ridden tons of bikes in the past 30+ years, who you probably know, Richard Cunningham:

    https://youtu.be/2D8hF-Fxgb8?t=116

    He shows a riding position I see in others, especially those in the less than average height range. Seems exaggerated on mellower stuff, but looks as expected when he's on the Whyte at 6:38. Contrast to 9:55 on the Norco...

    With all these bikes' geo compared in size M, the Whyte's geo hits my estimated sweet spot CS to wheelbase proportions* (430mm CS, 1215mm WB). Edit: The Transition also hits my sweet spot, considering the new updated geo, with 425mm CS and 1189mm wheelbase. The two are basically compared to each other by part spec, travel and wheelbase length most friendly/compatible with specific trails and riding style. The tester called the Norco essentially a cruiser, which is how I see these long CS and short/steep front end 29ers. Its geo is not off my estimated sweet spot by much, needing just 30mm more front center/wheelbase in size M, but that amount seems enough to make the bike feel off. These cruisers just don't have the well-rounded capability of the bikes with better geo, seemingly trading this off to be a bit more safe for newbies who like to defensively get behind the saddle. Seeing this happen all over again with emtbs...

    Even a 5' 7" pro is being seen here just "cruising" with her butt hanging behind the saddle for most the vid: https://youtu.be/gDeu9AvM6DU?t=16 (she apparently has adapted well, even taking some pedal strokes from the rearward position).

    Tired of seeing so many bikes with classic/cruiser geometry. Amusing that so many people make fun of extreme examples of them here, when my premise is to point out that this geo sucks (along with the whole slammed stem trend). Would be happy to see more brands pay more attention to the rear center and front center proportions, to fine tune how centered a rider is between the wheels. Norco was brave to change cs length with size, but I'm not sure if they're making cruisers to target the mainstream or if it was luck through trial-and-error with how they hit the sweet spot before with some models, like their Range and smaller wheeled Sight.

    I'd rather not have to adapt to this defensive position, due to the bike's geo...

    * estimated sweet spot CS to wheelbase proportions listed in post #96

  52. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post
    Here's a 65 year old rider, who's ridden tons of bikes in the past 30+ years, who you probably know, Richard Cunningham:

    https://youtu.be/2D8hF-Fxgb8?t=116

    He shows a riding position I see in others, especially those in the less than average height range. Seems exaggerated on mellower stuff, but looks as expected when he's on the Whyte at 6:38. Contrast to 9:55 on the Norco...

    With all these bikes' geo compared in size M, the Whyte hits my estimated sweet spot CS to wheelbase proportions. The Transition is close, the wheelbase being about 25mm short for its CS, but hits the sweet spot in size L. The Norco is really off, with very front heavy geo. He tester called the Norco essentially a cruiser, which is how I see these long CS and short/steep front end 29ers. Just doesn't have the well-rounded capability of the bikes with better geo.
    Good form Iíll give him that. New geometry on a 29Ē wheel full squish bike, not that difficult with ďsomeĒ skill. Hint: the large wheels on a slack new geometry with full swish. Thereís a bit of body english, a ďbitĒ, not much necessary. The bike pretty much does the work with your weight back on the steeps.

    Next
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

  53. #153
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    When I was a kid, no one told us how to stand or sit on our bikes. We just rode around on them, a lot. We figured out what felt good and what worked and it would've been different for each of us. There was no 'internet' telling us what we should aspire to be.

    I think it can help, all this expert advice floating in from the other side of the planet, but most of all I think it's best to just ride your bike. Find what feels good to you. What works for you. Why does riding a bicycle have to be so complicated?

  54. #154
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    While watching the supercross race last night with all the guys moving around all over the bike for varied conditions I was thinking.....crap, we need a new motorcycle design that allows the rider to have one body position all over the track. Something these guys had to get so far back, almost on the rear fender, just to keep the bike from dropping into the whoops. Then their confused brain had to figure out how to weight the front end after the jumps.
    They guys would actually be fast if they didn't have to think about their movements all the time.

    Sorry, couldn't resist.....

  55. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forest Rider View Post
    While watching the supercross race last night with all the guys moving around all over the bike for varied conditions I was thinking.....crap, we need a new motorcycle design that allows the rider to have one body position all over the track. Something these guys had to get so far back, almost on the rear fender, just to keep the bike from dropping into the whoops. Then their confused brain had to figure out how to weight the front end after the jumps.
    They guys would actually be fast if they didn't have to think about their movements all the time.

    Sorry, couldn't resist.....
    Impossible, only one position? Only way that could be done us in a straight line on a smooth surface. Using your body positions, throttle, brake control, strength and stamina is what separates out the skill levels and determines the winner.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

  56. #156
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    Glad you brought this up, Forest Rider. The bikes in that Supercross have their own problems of fit. What's the ideal height range that can fit on a stock 450? What do riders at the extreme ends of the range give up, range of moment? Ricky Carmichael is 5' 6". Were the 250s he raced cut-down like his 450 bikes? Ashley Fiolek, 5' 2", had a cutdown CFR250R. Both had relatively lowered rear ends. Ricky had one of the most unique setups, with bars setup relatively high and levers not angled very downward.

    It took time for the moto industry to mature as well, with steady improvements up until the '08 recession. The mtb industry had GT fueling all sorts of weird innovations in the early 2000s, deviating pretty hard away from the roadie inspired stuff, but it seems that roadie influence still lingers. I wouldn't mind if MTB followed more in suit with MX. It's a shame that people can't get over the connection to motors, believing they can't pedal-power anything moto-like, and/or believing that MX-inspired stuff is no good for sharing trails.

    If anyone actually reads my posts, they'd find I'm merely saying that I like progressive geometry, but am pointing out that riders of non-average height aren't getting the full benefit. This is mainly because of how mainstream brands extrapolate their other sizes, adding/subtracting an inch here and there from their prototype sizing (usually L), making things perhaps a bit too raked out for very tall riders and too cruiser-like for short riders. I've put down a deposit on custom, trying to predict where geo will ultimately end up. I'm in line to get production updates next week.

    I'm not arguing that riders shouldn't move. I'm arguing that the ready position can be more centralized, rather than rearward (dirty toilet bowl hover/squat) or hunched forward (back angled forward). More forward for shorter riders, and not so forward for tall riders. I expect more range of movement. You can plow from a central position, but you can do so much more from it, than from a defensive behind-the-saddle position. Reduce one burden, and open up opportunity to focus your efforts into something else--it doesn't get easier, you just get radder/faster.

    I've pointed out that the most praise-worthy AM/trail bikes are usually ones that hit this sweet spot, in the sweet spot size (size L typically). I am arguing that these bikes have received different opinions by riders who chose them in different sizes, at least if they were spoiled by better (sweet spot) geo. Bikes ride differently in different sizes, for more reasons than just different ETT/reach and seat tube--people are not paying attention to the ratio between the front center and rear center, and how that can be the difference between natural/intuitive handling, and handling that demands the rider to adapt even more to get wheels properly weighted for control. Doesn't have to be that way, if brands balanced the CS length, like what YT is doing now.

  57. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    Impossible, only one position? Only way that could be done us in a straight line on a smooth surface. Using your body positions, throttle, brake control, strength and stamina is what separates out the skill levels and determines the winner.
    Yeah, but I couldn't resist stirring the pot.

    I also wondered why the motorcycle industry hasn't adapted to some sort of locked on foot design. There were one or 2 crashes where the dude was ejected cause his foot came off.
    Never catch a toe in a deep rut again if your foot is locked on the peg in the one and only preferred position. As for leg out to weight the front -meh. They are professionals. They can figure out how to ride it with the unnecessary front wheel weight situation.

    Okay -I'll quit now. Resume normal activity. I'm gonna grab a rake.....

  58. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post
    Glad you brought this up, Forest Rider. The bikes in that Supercross have their own problems of fit. What's the ideal height range that can fit on a stock 450? What do riders at the extreme ends of the range give up, range of moment? Ricky Carmichael is 5' 6". Were the 250s he raced cut-down like his 450 bikes? Ashley Fiolek, 5' 2", had a cutdown CFR250R. Both had relatively lowered rear ends. Ricky had one of the most unique setups, with bars setup relatively high and levers not angled very downward.

    It took time for the moto industry to mature as well,
    Hmm. I'm not sure I understand. How do Ricky's and Ashley's unique setups indicate that that the moto industry has matured? Ricky's setup has also been criticized by Roger DeCoster so opinions vary widely on good bike setup. Marvin Musquin prefers setups that facilitate cornering but he is compromised in the whoops. Ken Roczen likes soft and fast rebounds in the rear which is the exact opposite of what Tomac runs.

    If the moto industry is "mature" then what it's teaching us is that there is no one size fits all even for riders that supposedly are the ideal heights for the bikes. Riders spend months sometimes a year to get a bike dialed in and then they re-dial it when they switch from Supercross to outdoors.

    There is no magical one size fits all. Or even one size fits you for all situations. That is true of MX and MTB. If you want to optimize for one situation, you will be compromising for other situations. If you try to get a "jack-of-all-trades" setup, then you get an all around decent setup but a setup that is not going to be optimized for any one situation. It's all about tradeoffs and what you are willing to tradeoff in one area for gains in another is subjective.

  59. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArizRider View Post
    I don't have much to ad besides the fact I was going to post a photo of Sam Hill as a perfect ideological position to be on a bike and came across this:

    https://www.leelikesbikes.com/team-c...positions.html

    To my 'untrained' eye, but having ridden with and see several top level pro's ride in person, Sam seems to have a good blend of power, balance and effortless riding style that is fairly unique.
    Like I said in a previous post, I think most, if not all, the DH and EWS pro riders tend to ride more upright than what mtb coaches teach. Think about it like setting sag (your arms and legs are suspension), why would you set your sag to 50%+?

    Maybe since the coaches have to teach to the general public that changes what they teach. That's the impression I got when I went to a skills clinic. Most riders in the "intermediate/advanced" class didn't have basic cornering skills and poor bike-body separation.

  60. #160
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    @hesitationpoint The implication is that Ricky's and Ashley's bikes were shortened vertically to fit a shorter rider better. Is the front wheel brought in closer, like it is in mtb sizing, to fit shorter riders? I don't know, but have my doubts about it. It also opens the question, why do they have such high grip placement compared to cycling; it seems to be around hip level, while cyclists have it below the crotch.

    You can argue that DeCoster convinced Ricky to change a little, but I am seeing things in the big picture, finding concepts that can apply to mtb. I see it as a shorter rider adapting the bike to create a good balance between man, machine, and terrain, where the demands on the rider are made so he can be more efficient than his peers.

    I mention '08, in terms of the moto industry maturing, because I'm not sure the recession is to blame for the slow down in advancement. It was to imply that mtb still has room to mature, considering how it compares in R&D investment and how mtb is slowly moving in its direction. Some here think that if there were room to improve mtb geometry, it'd be done already, having faith in the industry experts.

    I'm suggesting the same thing regarding sizing, except that I'm not a fan of how mtb sizing is handled. I asked for sliding drop-outs for my custom FS. Hopefully I can demonstrate how important RC:FC ratio (or CS to WB length proportions) matters, so people can perhaps have better knowledge to help choose from the bikes on the market. I essentially narrowed down my personal list of bike candidates down to zero, from bikes that had sweet spot balance, to the travel and wheelbase I wanted, to other things like seat tube length. I could've compromised on things like seat tube length, but I decided that I had much more to gain through custom, like a bike that possibly held up better to hucks on a regular basis (this kind of riding style).

    @jeremy3220 I like that sag in the arms/legs perspective. I to, am critical of how some coaches teach things, which in hindsight, makes this thread sort of a loaded question. I don't even try to argue publicly about coaching anymore, since it becomes a farce (appeal to authority). I don't want to prove that I am a better than a coach, I just want to justify the path I'm taking to solve a problem I have identified. I'll be borrowing your perspective.

    Ever hear the stories about the beginners who avoid using the front brake entirely? xD

  61. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy3220 View Post
    Like I said in a previous post, I think most, if not all, the DH and EWS pro riders tend to ride more upright than what mtb coaches teach. Think about it like setting sag (your arms and legs are suspension), why would you set your sag to 50%+?

    Maybe since the coaches have to teach to the general public that changes what they teach. That's the impression I got when I went to a skills clinic. Most riders in the "intermediate/advanced" class didn't have basic cornering skills and poor bike-body separation.
    The general tendency is to coach an exaggerated position so the student becomes comfortable using a position near the extreme of what's possible. Doesn't mean that a rider should camp out in that position for an entire ride, but they should be comfortable getting to the position and using the position when they need it.

    The reason is never presented that this is the position the rider is always supposed to use. Rather, the point is that sometimes you'll need this, so get used to it now in exaggerated, low consequence situations.

    Talking about the skills of other riders talking clinics is a whole other ballgame. Just suffice to say that almost everybody has deficiencies in their skills. They oftentimes come from the trails they ride, and the sorts of things those trails push a rider to learn.

    And sometimes the deficiencies come from the riders themselves. Almost all of us had to figure stuff out for ourselves, and we don't always come upon the best ways to do certain things all by ourselves. Some things we learn a less effective method to start with, that might work for lower level riding, but is something that you can't build on for more advanced work, so you have to go back and re-learn some things before you can move forward.

    Also, since most skills clinic sorting that I'm aware of is done with a survey of some kind, people who tend towards overconfidence are going to overrate their skills, whereas people who tend towards modesty are probably going to underrate their skills.

    Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk

  62. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post
    It also opens the question, why do they have such high grip placement compared to cycling; it seems to be around hip level, while cyclists have it below the crotch.

    You can argue that DeCoster convinced Ricky to change a little, but I am seeing things in the big picture, finding concepts that can apply to mtb. I see it as a shorter rider adapting the bike to create a good balance between man, machine, and terrain, where the demands on the rider are made so he can be more efficient than his peers.
    I'm not sure that moto geometry translates well to cycling for the following reason:

    *The motor is different - a 450cc (and even a 250) engine produces more than enough torque and power that the efficiency gains that cyclists worry about are a non-issue. For example, moto suspension doesn't have to be designed around pedaling efficiency. Seats can be set low at about dropper post height because pedaling efficiency is a non-issue. Also, a slammed stem makes no sense in moto since it compromises high speed stability over gnarly jumps and whoops with no corresponding gain elsewhere, but in mountain biking, particularly XC, it makes perfect sense. Rolling efficiency is king. A slammed stem allows one to run semi-slicks even off road and still maintain front wheel bite. Once you set it up, like a moto bike, then good luck running Race Kings in the front. You gain comfort and bike handling but will lose a few minutes off your time in a 1.5 - 2.0 hour XC race.

    Edit: meant to say will be slower by a few minutes in a 1.5-2.0 hour XC race.

  63. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    The general tendency is to coach an exaggerated position so the student becomes comfortable using a position near the extreme of what's possible.
    That's what I assumed. They're teaching riders who are probably really stiff and some who may not even be able to ride out of the saddle. It makes sense to have them practice that position and even run through a few drills.

    The reason is never presented that this is the position the rider is always supposed to use. Rather, the point is that sometimes you'll need this, so get used to it now in exaggerated, low consequence situations.
    My issue is that this exaggerated attack position is presented as a frame of reference, a go-to position when things get gnarly.

    From Lee's book "you should have a neutral base position - a position you can start at and return to. We call it the attack position" He goes on to talk about having a level torso and says "The closer your shoulders are to your handlebars, the more control you have over your bike."

    The 'attack position' is presented as the base position you assume when things get gnarly... not simply a point you'll pass through sometimes but the starting point. However, DH racers don't use this, even in giant rock gardens. Sometimes they end up really low over the bars to absorb a hit but it's not their base position. They're more upright. They also rarely have their hips hinged that far back except coming off a drop or something. However, I think part of it comes down to bike geometry/fit as to why you'll see DH riders with hips relatively lower.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy3220 View Post
    That's what I assumed. They're teaching riders who are probably really stiff and some who may not even be able to ride out of the saddle. It makes sense to have them practice that position and even run through a few drills.



    My issue is that this exaggerated attack position is presented as a frame of reference, a go-to position when things get gnarly.

    From Lee's book "you should have a neutral base position - a position you can start at and return to. We call it the attack position" He goes on to talk about having a level torso and says "The closer your shoulders are to your handlebars, the more control you have over your bike."

    The 'attack position' is presented as the base position you assume when things get gnarly... not simply a point you'll pass through sometimes but the starting point. However, DH racers don't use this, even in giant rock gardens. Sometimes they end up really low over the bars to absorb a hit but it's not their base position. They're more upright. They also rarely have their hips hinged that far back except coming off a drop or something. However, I think part of it comes down to bike geometry/fit as to why you'll see DH riders with hips relatively lower.
    There are all sorts of variations depending on the bike and the rider. I am not going to take something a downhill rider does in a wprld cup race and apply it to my riding, because I am doing something different. Same with the ews riders. I'm not riding their bikes, and though I may occasionally ride the trails they do, I'm not doing it the same way.

    I also don't take lee as gospel. He is experienced and has some useful perspectives, but is also somewhat opinionated, and isn't always right. MTB skills instruction isn't a static thing, either, and the cert programs require coaches to recertify to keep up-to-date on language and changing methods, and to keep their skills sharp.

    Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk

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