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  1. #1
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    Rapidly losing faith in the industry

    I have posted about this before in other, more specific subs so it may sound repetitive and whiny to some. I just wanted to open a dialogue here and hope that some people from the industry may stumble up on it.

    At this point, I have all but lost faith in the industry when it comes to warranty issues and companies standing behind their products. Mountain biking is not my only hobby, so I have dealt with warranty issues in other realms and never really had an issue. I have literally never had a good experience dealing with warranties in the cycling world. Ever.

    I have broken a handful of frames over the years, always steel frames because they get ridden a lot. Rigid SS has always been my main ride, and they see a lot of miles. In all of the frames and parts I have broken, I've yet to get a replacement for any of them. Not only that, but the correspondence is always so spotty that I never can get a good read on what's actually going on with the process.

    I work part time as a mechanic in a local shop, and I always go through the proper channels for these warranties. They're always legitimate, and they're always catastrophic failures. If it's something that can be boogered back together, I generally do it strictly to avoid downtime.

    I have had companies straight up tell me no, they will not cover a part. Companies drag me through a long, arduous process of taking frames to other local shops to prove the validity of my claim, and most recently a company who responds to my update requests MAYBE once every 1-2 weeks. This case was opened almost 3 months ago, and with this one I even spent $40 shipping the frame back for "evaluation".

    I am honestly about to thin out my stable and buy a brazing setup to start building my own frames, just so I don't have to deal with this anymore. I am constantly amazed that an industry of people who claim to be riders themselves, generally seem to have no issue with letting people miss out on half of their riding season due to awful warranty policies.

    Sorry to vent here, but it really bothers me how much money I have put into this sport and how much time I miss riding every season because of this BS.

  2. #2
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    I agree that it seems bad, but you can't base that on the number of people who complain on the internet about botched warranty claims.

    I have found one practical solution that speeds up the process a lot: CALL the manufacturer on the phone. in this day and age, you'd think that businesses would pay more attention to emails, but they don't. call them on the phone and talk to a person and you'll shorten the BS by quite a bit. it's more work on your end at the beginning, but I have found it to be worth it.

    I really want to support smaller "rider-owned" companies, but some of them come off as so flaky that you don't want to deal with them. my next bike/frame will likely be from someone that I know has money behind them such that each warranty issue is not driving them toward bankruptcy. it's likely that some of these companies are under-staffed, overworked, and hanging onto their business with a shoestring budget to keep it from going under, and that's why you don't hear back from them about warranty issues. that's not a good enough excuse from a customer's perspective, but it's very likely the truth.
    Last edited by mack_turtle; 07-05-2018 at 02:10 PM.

  3. #3
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    I've never had an warranty issue with Trek - I've busted 2 frames, snapped a couple pivot bolts and warranteed without issue.

    * knock on wood *

  4. #4
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    Aside from a warranty in place and a company not backing it up. Look at the sport itself. A mtb frame is meant to be ridden “off road”. How can anyone in any company determine if a frame was abused or not? I’m surprised any mtb manufacturer places a warranty on a product meant to be used in the outback.

    Rant on:
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

  5. #5
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    Curious who the "problem" companies are? I know people are probably hesitant to call them out specifically, but that's what word of mouth is all about. Good companies are rewarded with good word of mouth, bad companies are rewarded with bad word of mouth. I'm a software consultant, and if I don't come through for a client, they're not going to be quiet about it.
    2019 Stumpy 27.5 Alloy Comp (med). And green grips.

  6. #6
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    Agreed. I have only had one experience trying to get a frame warranties and it was a let down.

    My first bike was a 1998 Specialized FSR that I bought used. after 1 season I sold it and went out and purchased a brand new Specialized Enduro Pro from Surpergo in Santa Monica. I purchased it as part of a July 4th sale in 2002. I did not have the cash for a $2700 top of the line bike, so I used their 90 days same as cash program through a lender.

    Fast forward to 2013/2014 and I discover a crack in the frame where the seat connects to the frame., being nearly 12 years later, 2 home moves and general life busyness I cannot find my original receipt from Supergo, so Specialized won't do a thing for me even though the frame should have a lifetime warranty.

    I call up the financial department of Performance(who purchased Supergo) and they don't keep records that old. I contacted the lender and they don't keep records that old.....


    I ended up finding a really good welder who could work on aluminum and got him to not only repair the crack, but he built in a gusset to make the area stronger than it was from the factory. I had a buddy who does car spot painting match the paint for me and rode it another season before I ended up selling it.
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  7. #7
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    Yes, I'd like to know also.

    I just dealt with a warranty myself. It wasn't as painless as I'd hoped, but I'm getting something out of the deal.

    I'm hesitant to bad mouth any of my experiences because I know what I experienced was typical of someone running a business, not a charity. But they also need to honor their warranty claims or they will lose business down the road.

    Sometimes I also wonder how much some of these frames actually get ridden. Having found out about a common issue with one specific bike, I can't see how other riders wouldn't have the same issues I had unless they simply weren't putting the hours on the bike. Perhaps what I use a DD is a couple times a year bike for someone else, and the issues that crop up won't come until long after warranty is up.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    Aside from a warranty in place and a company not backing it up. Look at the sport itself. A mtb frame is meant to be ridden “off road”. How can anyone in any company determine if a frame was abused or not? I’m surprised any mtb manufacturer places a warranty on a product meant to be used in the outback.

    Rant on:
    I won't argue against you too much, but they do offer these warranties and they need to stand behind them. As someone who has been in the mechanical engineering field for quite a few years, there's no reason a weld shouldn't hold up to the stresses of mountain biking. The frames I have broken have always been at the weld, which to me says that either their welds aren't being done right/tested vigorously enough, or the frame design is bad and designed in a way that's over-stressing welds.

    There are a lot of factors, but clearly they understand it enough to think it's worth standing behind.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by SingleSpeedSteven View Post
    I won't argue against you too much, but they do offer these warranties and they need to stand behind them. As someone who has been in the mechanical engineering field for quite a few years, there's no reason a weld shouldn't hold up to the stresses of mountain biking. The frames I have broken have always been at the weld, which to me says that either their welds aren't being done right/tested vigorously enough, or the frame design is bad and designed in a way that's over-stressing welds.

    There are a lot of factors, but clearly they understand it enough to think it's worth standing behind.
    I agree, I was only saying that I’m surprised they offer a warranty on items used off road. It’s their fault that they offer them and then don’t stand behind them.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

  10. #10
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    In the case of one the frames I broke since other bike owners were experiencing the same thing conveniently the company filed bankruptcy and went out of business.. DWL Ironhorse

  11. #11
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    I remember back when I had a Giant Anthem 29... can't remember which year - 2013 maybe - they were experiencing a high rate of failures (the joint between the TT and ST was stupid small and just not up to the task). The only reason I held onto that bike was because despite a higher incidence of issues (as seen on forums and as reported by various outlets), not one single person had a problem getting a replacement. Giant has lifetime warranties on their frames - aluminum and carbon - and they're well known for standing behind it and providing quick turnaround.
    2019 Stumpy 27.5 Alloy Comp (med). And green grips.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by habsfan View Post
    I've never had an warranty issue with Trek - I've busted 2 frames, snapped a couple pivot bolts and warranteed without issue.

    * knock on wood *
    I've not broken a frame yet but I've also had no warranty issues with Trek and it's one of the reasons I've bought further Trek bikes. My first Trek bike had a Gates carbon belt drive which failed prematurely although out of warranty, I asked the LBS to check with Trek whether this was normal so I could decide whether to stick with the carbon belt or change to a chain drive. Without me asking, Trek replaced the belt and paid for the labour.

    I had a Manitou through axle fail on the Stache again out of warranty and asked Trek to check the part number as it was £60 and had failed on the second use so I also asked if there was an alternative part. They confirmed the details of the bike then sent me one out as a goodwill gesture.

    When there was a suspected issue with the front fork they not only replaced it under a recall but also gave £80 credit towards Bontrager/Trek parts.
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  13. #13
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    I'm guessing smaller companies are a lot more concerned about word of mouth, but I had a warranty claim with Nox on a rim (not a frame, I know) and it couldn't have been an easier or better experience for me. FWIW.

  14. #14
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    The shop I work part time at deals mainly Specialized. While I have never submitted a claim through them, I have processed quite a few and they are almost always no questions asked. That's why I bought an Enduro for my full suspension bike recently.

    Unfortunately, like I mentioned above the majority of my time is spent on rigid SS. The big companies who actually acknowledge their warranties don't find it necessary to sell steel rigid bikes anymore. I am basically stuck buying small "boutique" frames at this point.

    I honestly may look into building my own frame over this next winter. That way when I break it, all I have to do is throw it in the jig and re-braze. No more losing 3+ months of riding or having to chop a frame up for art projects because the company stopped responding to me.

  15. #15
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    The other frame I broke was a specialized but since I wasn't the original owner was told it wasn't covered...
    Quote Originally Posted by SingleSpeedSteven View Post
    The shop I work part time at deals mainly Specialized. While I have never submitted a claim through them, I have processed quite a few and they are almost always no questions asked. That's why I bought an Enduro for my full suspension bike recently.

    Unfortunately, like I mentioned above the majority of my time is spent on rigid SS. The big companies who actually acknowledge their warranties don't find it necessary to sell steel rigid bikes anymore. I am basically stuck buying small "boutique" frames at this point.

    I honestly may look into building my own frame over this next winter. That way when I break it, all I have to do is throw it in the jig and re-braze. No more losing 3+ months of riding or having to chop a frame up for art projects because the company stopped responding to me.

  16. #16
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    I don't know if it's my imagination or not, but I think companies are beginning to preemptively build their products stronger in an attempt to curb these warranty claims. Has anyone seen the latest aluminum Bronson build (NX) from Santa Cruz? It has a stated weight of 34lbs! Without pedals! I've been looking into wheels recently, and I see the same thing. It appears, anecdotally at least, that weights are creeping up. Race Face and WTB just added "Tough" versions of their popular rims, too.
    The cake is a lie.

  17. #17
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    I've never broken a frame but I've had very good service from Specialized over a number of issues. I had tyres that delaminated. They were a few years old, no receipt, well worn but they still gave me a new pair.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by kubikeman View Post
    I don't know if it's my imagination or not, but I think companies are beginning to preemptively build their products stronger in an attempt to curb these warranty claims. Has anyone seen the latest aluminum Bronson build (NX) from Santa Cruz? It has a stated weight of 34lbs! Without pedals! I've been looking into wheels recently, and I see the same thing. It appears, anecdotally at least, that weights are creeping up. Race Face and WTB just added "Tough" versions of their popular rims, too.
    We as consumers cry and crave lighter weight frames and components yet they fail and it falls on the manufacturers and their warranties. One can hardly blame the manufacturers for building stronger frames and components to avoid the issues, It’s a vicious circle. Plus each manufacturer in competition with the others in producing lighter stuff to please the consumers.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    We as consumers cry and crave lighter weight frames and components yet they fail and it falls on the manufacturers and their warranties. One can hardly blame the manufacturers for building stronger frames and components to avoid the issues, It’s a vicious circle. Plus each manufacturer in competition with the others in producing lighter stuff to please the consumers.
    There is a time and place for light frames. Endurance guys understandably like lighter frames, and endurance courses are generally not super chunky. For most people though, I would think you'd want to go tougher vs lighter.

    This last warranty issue I am dealing with is taking so long, that I just bit the bullet and bought a new frame so I don't lose out on half of my riding season or more. I wanted something well built with gussets to hopefully curb dealing with this again. It's a beast, but if it lasts then I can deal with a couple extra lbs.

  20. #20
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    I have had two broken frame warranty claims and even though it was a known issue, it still took over 3 weeks to get a decision from the manufacturer both times. In the meantime, the LBS is leaning heavily on me to take the paltry credit and upgrade to a new bike. Yeah right.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Aswell View Post
    I'm guessing smaller companies are a lot more concerned about word of mouth, but I had a warranty claim with Nox on a rim (not a frame, I know) and it couldn't have been an easier or better experience for me. FWIW.
    I've read that a lot, about NOX.

    That's why I have 4 wheels with their rims.
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  22. #22
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    I broke a very expensive 853 steel single-speed frame, and while it was repaired, and some sweet gussets were added on the chainstay/bb joint, the builder blamed the failure on my pedaling style.
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by juan_speeder View Post
    the builder blamed the failure on my pedaling style.
    I’m not buying what you’re selling.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    I purchased it as part of a July 4th sale in 2002.

    Fast forward to 2013/2014 and I discover a crack in the frame where the seat connects to the frame., being nearly 12 years later,
    You, the OP, and others seem to have trouble understanding that warranties for manufacturing defects don't cover failures due to fatigue, crashing, etc.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by bloodypalms View Post
    You, the OP, and others seem to have trouble understanding that warranties for manufacturing defects don't cover failures due to fatigue, crashing, etc.
    Crashing I get, but tell me exactly how you would go about determining if something fails because of a bad weld or because of say, someones "pedaling style" as mentioned above.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by SingleSpeedSteven View Post
    Crashing I get, but tell me exactly how you would go about determining if something fails because of a bad weld or because of say, someones "pedaling style" as mentioned above.
    Frames don't have an infinite life. Failures due to fatigue are not a manufacturing defect.

    You would need to ask the guy who blamed "pedaling style" for his explanation.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by bloodypalms View Post
    Frames don't have an infinite life. Failures due to fatigue are not a manufacturing defect.

    You would need to ask the guy who blamed "pedaling style" for his explanation.
    I am asking you how you would go about determining the difference between a botched weld and "fatigue". You're using a very loose, broad definition to play devils advocate here.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    Fast forward to 2013/2014 and I discover a crack in the frame where the seat connects to the frame., being nearly 12 years later, 2 home moves and general life busyness I cannot find my original receipt from Supergo, so Specialized won't do a thing for me even though the frame should have a lifetime warranty.
    I honestly don't think that's unreasonable. Without the receipt, how can they work it if you are the original owner, or the fourth?

  29. #29
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    Singlespeed Steven, Sorry to hear your having these issues. 1st of all, I think you are correct, they should at least stand behind their warranties. Or small claims court here in CA. It would not cost much, and they cannot hide behind a lawyer. Moving on to your choice of frame material, Maybe Aluminum or Carbon would be a better fit. I am kinda anti carbon, but its great to see how well the carbon frames do. I did a ride experiment with a NINER SIR 9 frame. It was a great steel frame for me for a year or so. I switched all of my parts over to a NINER ONE 9 Scandium frame. At 22 PSI in tires, there was no difference in ride feel. The bottom bracket was slightly stiffer side to side on the new Scandium frame. Then I switched all the same parts to a NINER AIR 9 Hydroformed frame. Once again, no difference in ride feel at low PSI. I then bought a 4th frame! Same parts again, same ride feel. Dont drink the cool aid that steel is "better", try a modern ride or material. I remember NINER offered a 5 year warranty on carbon frames, I have no interest in carbon frames really. But the ride feel between frames with a 140 fork and modern 2.4 tires at low 20's PSI , is mostly perceived vs reality. I can tell you one thing, steel frames dont work for you.
    Last edited by hoolie; 07-05-2018 at 02:56 PM.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by bloodypalms View Post
    Frames don't have an infinite life. Failures due to fatigue are not a manufacturing defect.

    You would need to ask the guy who blamed "pedaling style" for his explanation.
    Ummm... steel does exhibit infinite life if designed and manufactured properly. Infinite life is not infinite, as we all know, but it should sustain hundreds of millions of cycles or not fail in fatigue.
    Life is too short to ride a bike you don't love.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by hoolie View Post
    I can tell you one thing, steel frames dont work for you.
    I think that judgement is a bit premature. a bit of a thread derail thread too. carry on here: http://forums.mtbr.com/singlespeed/w...l-1002851.html

  32. #32
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    In 2012 my 2008 Kona HeiHei developed a frame crack around the rocker pivot on the seat tube. Took it to the shop I bought it from and pictures were taken and sent to Kona. No question they were willing to replace the frame but none were available and the newer models would not fit my fork or wheels. Was offered a 2012 frame or a 2012 bike at distributor cost (from the Kona Rep.). Ended up getting a 2012 HeiHei deluxe ($3,000 retail) for a little under $1,100 + only had to surrender the frame to Kona and was able to buy a hardtail frame and build up a bike for my son with the rescued parts. I've seen that shop warranty many frames with no questions asked (Kona, Fisher, Spec.) so surprised to here this is a big issue for some.
    Mole

  33. #33
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    Gotta disagree with the OP...

    Most every time I've had a potential warantee issue, and I've spoken with the company on the phone, I've been extremely pleased with not only their positive professional attitude but also the efforts made to remedy any problems.

    I've had excellent encounters with...

    Pivot (the best customer service I've ever had)
    Lezyne
    Cane Creek
    Fox
    Santa Cruz
    Competetive Cyclist / Backcountry
    Schwalbe
    Shimano

    MRP - forgot to add them first time through.

    SRAM is frustrating as they force you to have things managed through the LBS/retailer, but still they've generally come through in the end.
    Last edited by Miker J; 07-15-2018 at 06:58 PM.

  34. #34
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    Sorry, steel frames seem to be working awesome for OP.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by hoolie View Post
    Sorry, steel frames seem to be working awesome for OP.
    I am actually looking heavily at the Pivot LES for the 2019 season. My only beef is that I would have to upgrade my (annoyingly expensive) rear hub to Boost along with the frame...

  36. #36
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    Yep. Me too. I haven't had an issue with any legit warranty claim I've had. Often I was surprised by the length the mfgr went to to make me happy. Even Sram has been great, though like Trek, Spec and others, you need to go through an authorized retailer (LBS). I know others who have had other issues with frames wheels etc. and that have had great service too.
    Do the math.

  37. #37
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    Had two GT frames crack 6 months apart in the exact same spot. The old iDrive seat tower flaw. First time it cracked GT did a warranty replacement and I had a new frame and back on the trail in a week. Second time I was SOL. It cracked at the time GT went bankrupt back in 2002. Superego the lbs was nice enough to step up and offer me a frame from another manufacturer at cost. Shit [life] happens.
    Last edited by DIRTJUNKIE; 07-05-2018 at 04:37 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    Had two GT frames crack 6 months apart in the exact same spot. The old iDrive seat tower flaw. First time it cracked GT did a warranty replacement and I had a new frame and back on the trail in a week. Second time I was SOL. It cracked at the time GT went bankrupt back in 2002. Superego the lbs was nice enough to step up and offer me a frame from another manufacturer at cost. Shit [life] happens.
    3.0 Whatever it was version (brushed aluminum with red decals)? As I recall there was an entire batch that didn't get heat treated.

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  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by juan_speeder View Post
    3.0 Whatever it was version (brushed aluminum with red decals)? As I recall there was an entire batch that didn't get heat treated.

    God, am I getting old, but at least my memory is stlil sharp...
    Different flaw. The seat tower mass of all early first gen iDrives had a weak point. Mine was the XCR-LE [Limited Edition] model. The top end iDrive which had Easton 6061 Taper wall tubing and was hand built out of the Santa Ana plant. Even so, it still had the same design flaw on that section of the frame as all the lower end models.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by bloodypalms View Post
    Frames don't have an infinite life. Failures due to fatigue are not a manufacturing defect.

    You would need to ask the guy who blamed "pedaling style" for his explanation.
    Incorrect. Steel and aluminum both can exhibit infinite lifespans when designed properly.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by bloodypalms View Post
    Frames don't have an infinite life. Failures due to fatigue are extremely rare.

    You would need to ask the guy who blamed "pedaling style" for his explanation.
    Fixed that for you (for the mountain biking world).

    Fatigue failures are ultra-rare. Most people aren't going to put the number of cycles/loading on a frame in 20 years to come close to these limits.

    What will usually happen is some part of the frame will fail at far less than the intended stress of the frame.

    This is usually due to either a flaw, as in poor QC/manufacturing, or poor design (manufactured exactly as designed).

    Chainstays and chainstay yokes seem to be a consistently troublesome area.

    You either have under-stress failures or over-stress failures. Dramatic over-stress failures are also very rare. In these cases, it looks like the metal was "torn apart", as if it was plastic or semi-liquid. They happen, but they are usually easy to spot.

    The under-stress failures are more common. Some part of the frame is the "weak link" due to one of the above issues, and there's an overload on a very small scale, sometimes microscopically. This causes a crack to form, crack propagates with every subsequent cycle or load, then it suddenly fails down the road when the structure can no longer hold up to the loads imposed. Essentially, the bike failed at less than the design load, hence, "under-stress". What if part of the frame simply "gave way" before the other parts, well then you trace it back to the beginning of the crack and analyze it. NTSB and others do it all the time. These failures tend to start at a flaw and you will see scalloped rings like those of a tree, where the crack propagated with each cycle. It's usually a dead-give-away for this type of failure (and cracks in general). They do have to be looked at on the microscopic level to determine this usually.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mudguard View Post
    I honestly don't think that's unreasonable. Without the receipt, how can they work it if you are the original owner, or the fourth?
    They can't.

    ...but that is also a choice of the manufacturer. Some manufacturers (not just talking bikes) have lifetime warranties, and some have lifetime warranties to the original owner.

    Some companies will just replace the product under warranty whether you're the 1st or 21st owner.

  43. #43
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    IMO at the crux of this issue are two things: customer service and economic pressures. Customer service in that a lot of companies make this an after-after-after thought, either because they're cheap or because they simply can't afford it. The economic pressure is that most (if not all frames) are manufactured in a single place, and it's up to the individual companies to make sure of the quality of what they're getting and to have a good policy in place when things go wrong. If you're a company that can afford to replace things no questions asked, then good for them but you put yourself at risk of people abusing your policy (and they will). I do think there is a huge gray area in how people really use a product vs what the manufacturer thinks people are using the product.

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  45. #45
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    Cool-blue Rhythm

    From my experience, the warranty is only as good as your LBS. Of course, there are stand out exceptions to this statement (i.e. Ventana). However, by and large, the relationship your shop has with the manufacturer (and the relationship you have with the shop) will prevail in doing what's right regardless.

    To be completely transparent here is a partial listing of gear my LBS has warrantied over the years:

    1996 LTS Team Frame - warrantied 5 times.
    2000 Ellsworth Joker frame - warrantied 7 times.
    XTR drive side pedal - warrantied 3 times.
    CranksBro's Candiess - warrantied 2 times.
    SRAM XO Cranks - warrantied once (knock on wood).
    SantaCruz TB CC frame - warrantied twice.
    Fox Talas 34 RLC - warrantied once.
    Specialized saddles (1 Toupe, 1 Avenir?) - both warrantied.
    Specialized Renegade tire - warrantied once.
    Specialized FatBoy (no name) rear hub - warrantied three times.

    ...this is a partial listing off the top of my head. And yes, there were several 6-packs of cold beer given to the LBS in gratitude.

  46. #46
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    This attitude that you have to jack off the LBS to help you with a warranty claim, or even give you decent service in general, is puzzling.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by bloodypalms View Post
    You, the OP, and others seem to have trouble understanding that warranties for manufacturing defects don't cover failures due to fatigue, crashing, etc.
    So you, new to the site with just a handful of posts are some sort of expert on what the definition of lifetime warranty means?

    Also, please explain how to define the difference between a manufacturing defect and fatigue? If someone makes a frame and is confident enough in the design that it will not fatigue over the lifetime to a breaking point and they provide a lifetime warranty on it..... They should back up that warranty. That is the crux of this conversation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mudguard View Post
    I honestly don't think that's unreasonable. Without the receipt, how can they work it if you are the original owner, or the fourth?
    yep, and that is why I did not make a big stink to Specialized about it. I understood that the one requirement to get a frame warrantied as the Original owner was to provide proof of purchase, something I could not do even though I tried very hard to do so.


    But that does take us back to the original intent of a lifetime warranty..... Perhaps it should not be called that, but rather an Original owner lifetime warranty. ;-)
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  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by mack_turtle View Post
    I've seen this before and is perhaps a large issue. Bike companies are nothing more than "specifiers" and what you specify is not always what you get.

    Also working a large scale industry I can shed some light on some of this. Just think for a second. Say you are a medium-sized bike company sourcing product from Taiwan. You specify a frame with a set of drawings and QC checks you want the supplier to meet. You dole out a wad of cash to front the operation with the balance due on delivery. You order a fairly large quantity of frames to handle that years sales and warranty supply. Say something like 5000.

    So then say said Taiwanese supplier builds all your frames, does what they claim is QC and passes them all. They get to you and you inspect some at random and find they don't meet you specifications. What do you do? You can withhold payment and sue them until they provide you with products that meet your specs, in which case you won't have any product to sell that year of that model. You can try to negotiate some kind of rework, if possible, to fix the issue. Or you can do what most companies probably do and bend over, take the shitty bikes, sell them and hope you don't get a ton of warranty, or at least can cover your sales with your warranty stock.

    This is how most businesses run, bike industry or not. The OEM often has many layers of suppliers they deal with and any one of them could miss the mark and you have a shit product on your hands. And a lot of how the power is handled is dictated by the business. I'd bet most bike OEMS don't have a lot of power, especially the smaller to medium sized ones with their suppliers in Taiwan. It's not like those suppliers are going go out of business if they lose one small, fly-by-night bike company.

    This is really why it's much better to see a small company that actually has control over its manufacturing, and isn't just subletting it out to Taiwan.

    I think the next bike I buy is going to be a custom. I can't see dealing with this nonsense anymore to save a few hundred bucks and ultimately getting a bike that if you're lucky lasts you a few years.
    Life is too short to ride a bike you don't love.

  49. #49
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    learn HOW to ride. ive never broken anything. been riding mtb for 20 years, bmx before that. never bent a fork, broke a frame or bent a wheel. flow, dont smash thru stuff

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by nauc View Post
    learn HOW to ride. ive never broken anything. been riding mtb for 20 years, bmx before that. never bent a fork, broke a frame or bent a wheel. flow, dont smash thru stuff
    Not always the case. I don't even flat tubes at moderate pressures. I'm pretty smooth. But stuff still fails occasionally because it wasn't built right.
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  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by nauc View Post
    learn HOW to ride. ive never broken anything. been riding mtb for 20 years, bmx before that. never bent a fork, broke a frame or bent a wheel. flow, dont smash thru stuff
    There is actually something to be said for flow. Unweighting your body from hard impacts and becoming one with the bike does give you fluidity through the gnar. Many, as you said, just smash through stuff.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
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  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by nauc View Post
    learn HOW to ride. ive never broken anything. been riding mtb for 20 years, bmx before that. never bent a fork, broke a frame or bent a wheel. flow, dont smash thru stuff


    Oh please...
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    Quote Originally Posted by l'oiseau View Post
    I've seen this before and is perhaps a large issue. Bike companies are nothing more than "specifiers" and what you specify is not always what you get.

    Also working a large scale industry I can shed some light on some of this. Just think for a second. Say you are a medium-sized bike company sourcing product from Taiwan. You specify a frame with a set of drawings and QC checks you want the supplier to meet. You dole out a wad of cash to front the operation with the balance due on delivery. You order a fairly large quantity of frames to handle that years sales and warranty supply. Say something like 5000.

    So then say said Taiwanese supplier builds all your frames, does what they claim is QC and passes them all. They get to you and you inspect some at random and find they don't meet you specifications. What do you do? You can withhold payment and sue them until they provide you with products that meet your specs, in which case you won't have any product to sell that year of that model. You can try to negotiate some kind of rework, if possible, to fix the issue. Or you can do what most companies probably do and bend over, take the shitty bikes, sell them and hope you don't get a ton of warranty, or at least can cover your sales with your warranty stock.

    This is how most businesses run, bike industry or not. The OEM often has many layers of suppliers they deal with and any one of them could miss the mark and you have a shit product on your hands. And a lot of how the power is handled is dictated by the business. I'd bet most bike OEMS don't have a lot of power, especially the smaller to medium sized ones with their suppliers in Taiwan. It's not like those suppliers are going go out of business if they lose one small, fly-by-night bike company.

    This is really why it's much better to see a small company that actually has control over its manufacturing, and isn't just subletting it out to Taiwan.

    I think the next bike I buy is going to be a custom. I can't see dealing with this nonsense anymore to save a few hundred bucks and ultimately getting a bike that if you're lucky lasts you a few years.
    It is a very competitive industry and the main thing the Pinkbike article underscores is how relatively easy it is to enter. There are plenty of companies that stand behind what they sell.

    Going custom is an option, and I can think of a custom frame builder who is active on this site and whose work has generated a ton of positive feedback. But going custom, at least for the bike industry, does not automatically resolve your problem. Do your due diligence as you would with any bike company because it is just as easy to exit, when you are are small and custom, as it is to enter. And these forums have seen their share of the custom nightmare builders.


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  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by cjsb View Post
    It is a very competitive industry and the main thing the Pinkbike article underscores is how relatively easy it is to enter. There are plenty of companies that stand behind what they sell.

    Going custom is an option, and I can think of a custom frame builder who is active on this site and whose work has generated a ton of positive feedback. But going custom, at least for the bike industry, does not automatically resolve your problem. Do your due diligence as you would with any bike company because it is just as easy to exit, when you are are small and custom, as it is to enter. And these forums have seen their share of the custom nightmare builders.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    I know there is no guarantee either way but my thought would be to work with someone who stands behind their work and wouldn't let garbage go out of their shop. I'm not saying there aren't bike companies that don't, but I think (and know) that some sell their product knowing there are issues with their fingers crossed that it won't fail within their warranty period. This happens in every industry I've worked in.
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  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    We as consumers cry and crave lighter weight frames and components yet they fail and it falls on the manufacturers and their warranties. One can hardly blame the manufacturers for building stronger frames and components to avoid the issues, It’s a vicious circle. Plus each manufacturer in competition with the others in producing lighter stuff to please the consumers.
    spot on...so if everyone would just lose a bunch of weight so they are all under 150lbs, we should have very few problems with light bikes
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  56. #56
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    I ride with a guy who is pretty experienced and who can clean most of the stuff we do together, but he just breaks stuff all the time...rear hub, rear derailleur, pedals, chains, and frames. He isn't bombing and smahsing at all, but flow???? Now way. Finesse? Nope.

    He shifts under load all the time and basically has no clue why things go wrong, even when it is his fault.

    He complains all the time that mtn. bikes aren't made well, and is always working an angle on warranties (he is on his 3rd or 4th frame, purchasing just the 1st, riding each for multiple years, breaking one, and getting some sort of replacement).

    I just keep riding my same bike, same parts, no problems.

    It is hard to take care of both of us, but most of the time, the industry is skewed to cover themselves because of my friend, and I get to haul a bunch of extra weight because of it...
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  57. #57
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    on a roll...and to the OP's point, I am coming off a few very bad experiences, where I try to take a problem to "customer service" and their default response is to:

    1. Deny there is a problem ("I have never heard of that happening" - despite there being long mtbr threads full of others reporting the same thing).
    2. Blame the user.
    3. Ignore/delay - the battle of attrition
    4. Engage in polite back and forth while not responding to the repeated, direct questions based on documented evidence of the problem. (Really a method of doing #3)

    Etc.

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  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by nauc View Post
    learn HOW to ride. ive never broken anything. been riding mtb for 20 years, bmx before that. never bent a fork, broke a frame or bent a wheel. flow, dont smash thru stuff
    This is enlightening. We should apply this to all sports.

    Climbing: Just don't fall.

    Skateboarding: Just don't fall, and don't hit guard-rails.

    Skiing: Just don't fall and don't hit a tree.

    Trail running: Just don't twist your ankle or break your leg.

    Kayaking: Just don't get caught upside down.

    Driving: Just don't crash.


    Damn, if I had just known it was this simple all these years...
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  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by nauc View Post
    learn HOW to ride. ive never broken anything. been riding mtb for 20 years, bmx before that. never bent a fork, broke a frame or bent a wheel. flow, dont smash thru stuff
    Very different background from me, and i broke EVERYTHING.

    I started riding MTB seriously in my early 20s, about a dozen years ago. No bike skills to draw on from when i was a kid. I'm also unusually large and unusually strong; thanks mom and dad. I'd love to ride smoothly and flow and whatever, and i'm an expert by any measure... but i can't. I make so many mistakes, but i'm experienced and can compensate- i put enormous loads in to my bike and ride it out. It's like there's something missing from my brain that i can't put in there cuz i'm just too old. It's frustrating. If i ride below my ability i'm still an expert, and i 'flow,' but i'm also bored. I've bought a BMX and DJ bike as an adult, but they don't fit me at all because i'm too tall, so it's tough to ride them. I don't have the interest/patience/time to go custom for a genre that i'm too old for.


    My MTBs are (not really) overbuilt and nowadays i almost never deal with mechanicals. It's been stupid and expensive to figure out what parts hold up for me, and i generally don't trust newest thing to be an improvement over an older product that has served me flawlessly.




    Anyway, the big production companies have to strike a balance for people who fall between our extremes, while keeping costs down and weight competitive. Screwing someone like me is a sensible business decision. Eventually it's hard to be mad.


    Quote Originally Posted by cjsb View Post
    Going custom is an option, and I can think of a custom frame builder who is active on this site and whose work has generated a ton of positive feedback. But going custom, at least for the bike industry, does not automatically resolve your problem. Do your due diligence as you would with any bike company because it is just as easy to exit, when you are are small and custom, as it is to enter. And these forums have seen their share of the custom nightmare builders.
    Agreed. That said, i went custom (doing them myself) and i don't need to add thaaaat much weight to get a frame that's exactly what i want and i'm confident i'll be riding until i'm sick of it. Previously i broke every frame eventually, so that's a pretty huge deal.
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  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by broncbuster View Post
    In the case of one the frames I broke since other bike owners were experiencing the same thing conveniently the company filed bankruptcy and went out of business.. DWL Ironhorse
    Same issue here...I bought a GT iDrive in 2003, 3 years later snapped frame. Brought it into shop where I bought it and they said GT sold out to another company and all previous sales with lifetime frame warranties were voided 1 year after the 'reorg'.

    On the plus side...I have buddies who have ridden Trek for 30 years and they have always had good results with frame replacements.
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  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by bingemtbr View Post
    From my experience, the warranty is only as good as your LBS. However, by and large, the relationship your shop has with the manufacturer (and the relationship you have with the shop) will prevail in doing what's right regardless.
    This is accurate. It's particularly true with borderline cases. To give one example: the '15 Specialized Tarmac has a seat wedge that's notorious for causing frame cracks when it's over-torqued. Whether the frame is processed as a crash or warranty replacement depends entirely on how the tech submits the claim.

    I haven't had any memorable support issues with new products. Here's how a few played out:

    Cannondale - 2X same frame part, various Lefty recalls. Through my shop, no questions asked, quick turnaround when parts were available.

    Raleigh - 1X shifter, 1X frame. Shifter arrived defective, they paid my shop to replace it. For chain drop frame damage, they sent a new bike.

    Giant - 2X cartridges for the same dropper. Longer turnaround because the post had to be sent to Giant both times, but no questions asked. However, they didn't install the cartridges and the shop wasn't that motivated. Easy enough to do on my own.

    Specialized - 2X recalled road forks. This isn't warranty per se, but still impressive since I wasn't the original owner of the forks. Quite slow though.

    Ritchey - 4X pedal cages. Out of warranty, very responsive tech agent.

    Hydrapack - 1X water bladder. Responsive, quick replacement.

    Raleigh in particular went above and beyond. I'd bought a carbon road bike with the typical, metal stick-on chainstay protector. One chain drop destroyed it and gouged the frame two months in. They initially offered to send a new frame and have the shop rebuild the bike, but when they couldn't verify the geometry of the replacement, they just had me pick out another bike from the catalog instead. The damaged frame was binned and they left me with all the old parts.

    On the MTB side, Diamondback is much the same. Without a shop network, they live and die on support, and they know it. They're also large enough that any particular claim has an insignificant bottom line impact, so they're disinclined to dicker. I'd sooner buy from them than most other brands.

  62. #62
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    Let’s not over think this gentleman. And I use that term lightly. Things break, warranty in place there should be a no hassle exchange, granted you have followed all the guidelines of said warranty. If there’s a hassle, get what you can out of them and move on. They either gained or lost a future customer on how they handled it. Plus many more customers gained or lost by word of mouth.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
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  63. #63
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    Here's the difference:

    Race Face Next SL, just under a year the pedal insert becomes un-bonded and cracks the end of the cranks. Cranks show no hits on the carbon or bottom, they were used on a fat-bike which generally sees less abuse than summer mountain stuff. Got them repaired and about a month later, they start making crackling noises and have massive creaks. I had to take them off they were so bad and I'm going to send them in again. This is not right. This part should not be so unreliable and it should be able to last longer without un-bonding and having things crack.

    SRAM XX1 cranks, over 4 years old, have taken all kinds of massive hits, been used for full on DH races, enduro races, park days, lots of aggressive riding, look like they've been beat to hell with lots of impacts. A few days ago I hit one of my pedals with a root and the interior metal skeleton fractured, ripping that out about 1" of the skeleton (the part with the petal insert) out of the carbon exterior. I'm totally fine with this failure. I've had these cranks for a long time and beat them to hell and back. I'd say I got my money's worth and this is no warranty issue, it's just my cumulative usage of these cranks.
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  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by l'oiseau View Post
    I've seen this before and is perhaps a large issue. Bike companies are nothing more than "specifiers" and what you specify is not always what you get.

    Also working a large scale industry I can shed some light on some of this. Just think for a second. Say you are a medium-sized bike company sourcing product from Taiwan. You specify a frame with a set of drawings and QC checks you want the supplier to meet. You dole out a wad of cash to front the operation with the balance due on delivery. You order a fairly large quantity of frames to handle that years sales and warranty supply. Say something like 5000.

    So then say said Taiwanese supplier builds all your frames, does what they claim is QC and passes them all. They get to you and you inspect some at random and find they don't meet you specifications. What do you do? You can withhold payment and sue them until they provide you with products that meet your specs, in which case you won't have any product to sell that year of that model. You can try to negotiate some kind of rework, if possible, to fix the issue. Or you can do what most companies probably do and bend over, take the shitty bikes, sell them and hope you don't get a ton of warranty, or at least can cover your sales with your warranty stock.

    This is how most businesses run, bike industry or not. The OEM often has many layers of suppliers they deal with and any one of them could miss the mark and you have a shit product on your hands. And a lot of how the power is handled is dictated by the business. I'd bet most bike OEMS don't have a lot of power, especially the smaller to medium sized ones with their suppliers in Taiwan. It's not like those suppliers are going go out of business if they lose one small, fly-by-night bike company.

    This is really why it's much better to see a small company that actually has control over its manufacturing, and isn't just subletting it out to Taiwan.

    I think the next bike I buy is going to be a custom. I can't see dealing with this nonsense anymore to save a few hundred bucks and ultimately getting a bike that if you're lucky lasts you a few years.
    I think your scenario is more likely to happen if you're having your frames manufactured in mainland China. In Taiwan, it is my understanding that there are just a few frame manufacturers. If you are a medium-sized bike company, they are not going to want to produce bad products for you and lose your account. In China, a lot more likely to have a company just looking for a fast cash grab without regards to the future.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oh My Sack! View Post
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  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by IPA Rider View Post
    spot on...so if everyone would just lose a bunch of weight so they are all under 150lbs, we should have very few problems with light bikes
    I've often wondered how light my bikes could be if they didn't have to be engineered for all you clydes.

    Only frame I've broken was a DBR V-Link 3.0, at a known problem spot where the chainstay clamped that I believe was probably the death of most of them. But Diamondback had been sold by then and I hadn't bought it new anyway.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oh My Sack! View Post
    Remember, there's always quilting and knitting if pedalling becomes too tough.

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archi-Magus View Post
    Incorrect. Steel and aluminum both can exhibit infinite lifespans when designed properly.
    Might be the case but there is much stated about a
    finite life span for aluminum frames,

    just nothing specific about type, style or what is or isn't "designed properly".
    In the Middle Ages, the biggest mistake was not putting on your armor because you were 'just going down to the corner.'

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    I've often wondered how light my bikes could be if they didn't have to be engineered for all you clydes.
    That is so funny !! I met a guy on a local trail last year who was riding a bamboo bike (anesthesiologist I think).... Could not envision him turning left or right without the bike bending like a piece of liquorice.

    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    There is actually something to be said for flow. Unweighting your body from hard impacts and becoming one with the bike does give you fluidity through the gnar. Many, as you said, just smash through stuff.
    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Oh please...
    No, DJ has it right to concur .... f-sake, I'm almost 58 years old- Ride smart. If you think Me, my bike or my body is smashing though versus finess or a smarter path, YOU BE YOU.

    Co-pay, meds, pain, warranty fights or broken bikes is someone else's Badge of Genius.
    Last edited by bachman1961; 07-08-2018 at 01:37 AM.
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  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    I've often wondered how light my bikes could be if they didn't have to be engineered for all you clydes.
    As a hobbyist frame building clydesdale, it's kind of amazing how little weight i have to add to a frame to make it basically indestructible. Less than 250g, and my being unusually tall makes that number artificially large. I also need heavier tires and wheels; with wheels the additional weight is similarly inconsequential, but tires add a bunch of weight.


    IMO if you're a 140-190 lb intermediate/advanced rider you have it GOOD. You don't even know.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottzg View Post
    Very different background from me, and i broke EVERYTHING.

    I started riding MTB seriously in my early 20s, about a dozen years ago. No bike skills to draw on from when i was a kid. I'm also unusually large and unusually strong; thanks mom and dad. I'd love to ride smoothly and flow and whatever, and i'm an expert by any measure... but i can't. I make so many mistakes, but i'm experienced and can compensate- i put enormous loads in to my bike and ride it out. It's like there's something missing from my brain that i can't put in there cuz i'm just too old. It's frustrating. If i ride below my ability i'm still an expert, and i 'flow,' but i'm also bored. I've bought a BMX and DJ bike as an adult, but they don't fit me at all because i'm too tall, so it's tough to ride them. I don't have the interest/patience/time to go custom for a genre that i'm too old for.


    My MTBs are (not really) overbuilt and nowadays i almost never deal with mechanicals. It's been stupid and expensive to figure out what parts hold up for me, and i generally don't trust newest thing to be an improvement over an older product that has served me flawlessly.




    Anyway, the big production companies have to strike a balance for people who fall between our extremes, while keeping costs down and weight competitive. Screwing someone like me is a sensible business decision. Eventually it's hard to be mad.




    Agreed. That said, i went custom (doing them myself) and i don't need to add thaaaat much weight to get a frame that's exactly what i want and i'm confident i'll be riding until i'm sick of it. Previously i broke every frame eventually, so that's a pretty huge deal.
    DIY is another level of insight into your product and sounds like an amazing learning experience—right on!


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    Quote Originally Posted by bachman1961 View Post

    No, DJ has it right to concur .... f-sake, I'm almost 58 years old- Ride smart. If you think Me, my bike or my body is smashing though versus finess or a smarter path, YOU BE YOU.
    Some terrain beats bikes a lot more.
    Some people like that sort of terrain.
    In our area, you would need to avoid many trails, and even entire systems, if you're only willing to ride places with a guarantee of smooth lines available. When I used to break stuff constantly, I was riding places like Lynn Woods and Vietnam trails in MA, back before there were things such as transitions and any thoughts of making trails 'flowy'. If you ride that sort of terrain regularly and aren't the type of person to get off you bike and walk sections constantly, you WILL break things. You could go ride the Kingdom Trails in VT for years and years and not put the sort of beating on your bike that Lynn or similar places do in an afternoon, regardless of talent level.

    When someone says they've been riding for decades and never broken anything, that just means they're not riding hard on rugged terrain.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottzg View Post
    As a hobbyist frame building clydesdale, it's kind of amazing how little weight i have to add to a frame to make it basically indestructible. Less than 250g, and my being unusually tall makes that number artificially large. I also need heavier tires and wheels; with wheels the additional weight is similarly inconsequential, but tires add a bunch of weight.


    IMO if you're a 140-190 lb intermediate/advanced rider you have it GOOD. You don't even know.
    Yeah, I'm on the very bottom end of that range, sometimes I fall beneath it, though I try not to. How much can you take off my frame?
    Quote Originally Posted by Oh My Sack! View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottzg View Post
    As a hobbyist frame building clydesdale, it's kind of amazing how little weight i have to add to a frame to make it basically indestructible. Less than 250g, and my being unusually tall makes that number artificially large. I also need heavier tires and wheels; with wheels the additional weight is similarly inconsequential, but tires add a bunch of weight.


    IMO if you're a 140-190 lb intermediate/advanced rider you have it GOOD. You don't even know.
    Did I read that right, you build your own frames? Or take frames and add gussets to beef them up?
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

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    There's some truth to that. Riding SoMo shuttles on the weekend, I'd often get a spot on the shuttle (coming from 2hrs away) because someone's bike was already damaged and out of action. You'd just be riding along (at a fairly high speed) and you'd side-swipe your derailleur. Gone. And I don't mean like, go back up the trail and pick up the pieces. I mean like gone, you can't find the damn thing because it likely got flung way off the trail onto the cactus and rock hillside. Luckily those have gotten much better, now being tucked better under the dropout, but even still, that kind of **** happens. I think the more experience we have, the better we manage this, throttle back a bit when we don't have the right gear, choose our lines and try to ride "lightly", but still, **** happens.

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    I've warrantied 2 frames, a Turner and a Banshee. The Turner I dealt with Dave himself and had a new triangle in 3 days. Banshee I actually dealt directly with the distributor and had a new frame in about 2 weeks. I've never warrantied a component as it's just not worth my time but know guys who really take advantage of sram for example. People are people good and bad. Loosing faith in the industry as a whole seems a little shortsighted to me.
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    We all know it's a short shelf life product but we gladly go back for more time and time again...

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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    Did I read that right, you build your own frames? Or take frames and add gussets to beef them up?
    I glue the tubes together with brass. I've done about a half-dozen, it's a hobby. Here is the last one i did- a road bike i finished last winter.

    I'm not sure i would be making a frame stronger by adding gussets; from what i've read it's very easy to just make a stress riser with them. I'd probably screw it up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Some terrain beats bikes a lot more.
    Some people like that sort of terrain.
    In our area, you would need to avoid many trails, and even entire systems, if you're only willing to ride places with a guarantee of smooth lines available. When I used to break stuff constantly, I was riding places like Lynn Woods and Vietnam trails in MA, back before there were things such as transitions and any thoughts of making trails 'flowy'. If you ride that sort of terrain regularly and aren't the type of person to get off you bike and walk sections constantly, you WILL break things. You could go ride the Kingdom Trails in VT for years and years and not put the sort of beating on your bike that Lynn or similar places do in an afternoon, regardless of talent level.

    When someone says they've been riding for decades and never broken anything, that just means they're not riding hard on rugged terrain.
    Yeah, I get that.
    I was never much of the downhill bomber. Maybe I was traumatized by that Caesar's Palace Evel Knievel video.

    I do ride more of the easy-going terrain always looking for the line I prefer and the trails that don't b-slap me or the bike.
    We have a lot of both here that fits the bill and I do see the riders with great ability and great bikes articulating the rocky boulders, drops and roots with success- mostly on the full sussers. I just don't feel like I'm missing out and the bike I have works well for my riding pref's.
    I do avoid some rough trails sometimes and other times, just pick my way through a bit slower, walk it or find challenge in picking a better-for-me line.

    Much of what the bike transfers to my wrists, neck or shoulders is what I'm probably tailoring to my likes and limits and for me, that and a bit of stretching myself on some uphill sections is what my challenges involve. The plus bike has been a nice upgrade for the added cush on a h/t in these respects.

    I might be a different sort of rider these days, faster, bigger trail dynamics etc.. with a full sus if I hadn't taken a few big hits years ago that spooked me and are starting to haunt me in the bones and range of motion some.
    When I see or hear bikes taking those big hits or impacts, it's nearly impossible for me to not envision the flesh and bone drama or the repetitive bone, joint or muscle ringing I'd likely incur. Maybe that's what will keep me riding into my later years.
    Last edited by bachman1961; 07-09-2018 at 05:07 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    Yeah, I'm on the very bottom end of that range, sometimes I fall beneath it, though I try not to. How much can you take off my frame?
    Well i'm 80lbs heavier than you. I have no idea what it's like to be you, but i'd guess ~150g, depending on material. Meaningless. I'd also assume you can run pretty light duty tires without them feeling like ping pong balls, and that there's a lot more to gain there. Me, i recently stuck a 1300g DH tire on the front of my hardtail, and i totally can't tell the difference other than the handling is better. I have no idea.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottzg View Post
    I glue the tubes together with brass. I've done about a half-dozen, it's a hobby. Here is the last one i did- a road bike i finished last winter.

    I'm not sure i would be making a frame stronger by adding gussets; from what i've read it's very easy to just make a stress riser with them. I'd probably screw it up.
    Cool hobby and a great way to beat the manufacturers at their own game price wise.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

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    Have folks actually read the warranty for their bike and understand what is covered etc.? I have never warrantied anything major myself that I remember (I guess I just don't break stuff) since starting this game in 1991. I wrenched/worked/managed in a shop for ~4 years in the mid-90s and saw plenty of warranty stuff come through and understand how the process works with both the bikes themselves and components etc. At some point you pay to play this game and going back to the manufacture each time something breaks from normal wear/tear/use is abusing the system. The warranty is there for defects under "normal" use which doesn't include racing, jumping, etc. (it doesn't matter what you think "normal" means). Most defects, like with cars, present themselves shortly after the part/bike/whatever is purchased and put into service. Keeping your receipt to prove ownership is always stated and falls 100% on the buyer to have the responsibility to maintain. The warranty is not there for when you f up working on your bike and over-torque a bolt and break something. The warranty isn't there when you buy a jacket that is too small and the zipper breaks. It really is for JRA cases which we all know are pretty rare but do happen. For frames cracks are usually good for warranty replacement frames, breaks are often scrutinized more but still warrantied regularly. Things that come to mind as examples of defects worthy of warranty replacement are Sram's Guide brakes and their seal problems causing them to swell in hot weather. All the abuse (I broke X and now you will replace under warranty) is why this system can be a $hitshow.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottzg View Post
    Well i'm 80lbs heavier than you. I have no idea what it's like to be you, but i'd guess ~150g, depending on material. Meaningless. I'd also assume you can run pretty light duty tires without them feeling like ping pong balls, and that there's a lot more to gain there. Me, i recently stuck a 1300g DH tire on the front of my hardtail, and i totally can't tell the difference other than the handling is better. I have no idea.
    Well, my hardtail, SS, CX and road bikes are all steel so I'm not really a weight weeny. I don't think I have any carbon parts outside of forks on a couple of the road bikes and a couple of carbon seatposts. My fully is aluminum.
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    okay
    Last edited by tealy; 10-27-2018 at 08:13 AM.
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    Warranty means if they boogered up the manufacture or design then they'll make it right.

    You cannot knock a product around for six months, break it, and expect to cry "warranty".

    I've learned that to millennials, "warranty" means "insurance plan".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post

    SRAM XX1 cranks, over 4 years old, have taken all kinds of massive hits, been used for full on DH races, enduro races, park days, lots of aggressive riding, look like they've been beat to hell with lots of impacts. A few days ago I hit one of my pedals with a root and the interior metal skeleton fractured, ripping that out about 1" of the skeleton (the part with the petal insert) out of the carbon exterior. I'm totally fine with this failure. I've had these cranks for a long time and beat them to hell and back. I'd say I got my money's worth and this is no warranty issue, it's just my cumulative usage of these cranks.
    When I got back into mountain biking 5 years ago, I was jra and clipped a pedal on a rock hidden in the grass. The force of the impact gave me something to think about. I have superlight carbon cranks on my road and cx bikes, but I'm sticking with cheap Shimano forged aluminum for mountain!

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    I've never really had a bad warranty experience. I've warrantied 4 frame over 20+ years of riding and the "worst" response I've gotten was being offered half price on a new frame when I was the second owner and it cracked.

    Its pretty generous that bike companies offer warranties on products that are essentially hammered down steep rocky, rooty trails for every use. Its also remarkable for well how well modern bikes hold up to regular use/abuse. If the OP is still not convinced, pick from one of the many companies that offer lifetime warranties, buy from a dealer, register it with the company and go ride the snot out of it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TiGeo View Post
    The warranty is there for defects under "normal" use which doesn't include racing, jumping, etc. (it doesn't matter what you think "normal" means).

    No, it's not that simple. They can write BS like that into the warranty, but if someone takes them to court and shows that they have all sorts of vids and promotion showing the bike being jumped around, that's the "normal use". You can't take something like a enduro bike and say "not warrantied for jumping". It's OBVIOUSLY meant for it, it may not be meant for the same size and intensity of a full-on DH bike, but you can't just insert BS into a contract or warranty that isn't based on reality like that. It falls apart in court rather fast with a preponderance of evidence contrary to the manufacturer. It does matter. It doesn't mean that you can abuse it beyond it's intended use. Racing is a bit more of a grey area, some cars are warrantied for it, some are not. The ones that are covered are usually obviously intended for it, so that helps to navigate the grey area a bit, but in general you can't design a bike for a certain purpose and they say "haha no!" when the consumer goes to warranty it for that same purpose.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schulze View Post
    When I got back into mountain biking 5 years ago, I was jra and clipped a pedal on a rock hidden in the grass. The force of the impact gave me something to think about. I have superlight carbon cranks on my road and cx bikes, but I'm sticking with cheap Shimano forged aluminum for mountain!
    I don't know why everyone sees these pictures and instantly assumes these broke on one ride.

    I've slammed the pedals into so many rocks and gotten thrown from the bike in the process with these things that I have no issues with them eventually breaking. IMO, anything would have broken, including forged hollow aluminum cranks. These things did SoMo, Tiger Mtn, Colorado, etc., multiple times and with many many hits over the years. No problems. I ordered some X01s to replace them, due to the similar construction.

    These are solid. I would not run Nexts on this Enduro bike though, for the same reason you state.
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  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottzg View Post
    I glue the tubes together with brass. I've done about a half-dozen, it's a hobby. Here is the last one i did- a road bike i finished last winter.

    I'm not sure i would be making a frame stronger by adding gussets; from what i've read it's very easy to just make a stress riser with them. I'd probably screw it up.
    Slight thread jack. Here's a fillet brazed six inch travel frame I had built in 2006.(my first dabble into low, long and slack custom frames) I knew the HT was going to be short because of the 24" TT so I asked for gussets top and bottom. I hit a moto riding as fast as I could down a fire road head on. He was hauling A up the road. Maybe this helps.

    I've never had a warranty with bikes. I've had awesome customer service with Magura and Marzocchi over the years.

    I have with Burton. Broken bindings and a delaminated board (separate occasions) were replaced with the only questions asked being, "What color bindings do you want?" and, "Do you want the same board length?"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    No, it's not that simple. They can write BS like that into the warranty, but if someone takes them to court and shows that they have all sorts of vids and promotion showing the bike being jumped around, that's the "normal use". You can't take something like a enduro bike and say "not warrantied for jumping". It's OBVIOUSLY meant for it, it may not be meant for the same size and intensity of a full-on DH bike, but you can't just insert BS into a contract or warranty that isn't based on reality like that. It falls apart in court rather fast with a preponderance of evidence contrary to the manufacturer. It does matter. It doesn't mean that you can abuse it beyond it's intended use. Racing is a bit more of a grey area, some cars are warrantied for it, some are not. The ones that are covered are usually obviously intended for it, so that helps to navigate the grey area a bit, but in general you can't design a bike for a certain purpose and they say "haha no!" when the consumer goes to warranty it for that same purpose.
    That reminds me of Rocky Mountain. I bought a DH Race and Element Race in 98. The owners manual stated the warranty would be void if the bikes were used in competition, at the same time Kranked was released, lol. I never had an issue with any RM I've owned
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vader View Post
    I hit a moto riding as fast as I could down a fire road head on...
    Ugh it hurts to see that damage. Sometimes you're gonna break something and it doesn't matter how it was made, this sounds like one of those times. My solution is to design around a 5" or longer head tube; the forces get much larger when you dip down to 4".

    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    Cool hobby and a great way to beat the manufacturers at their own game price wise.
    Quality production frames cost close to what building my own custom one does now that i have the tools, and that doesn't include labor hours. It's not really cheap. Custom frames from a builder can be a great value.

    It's pretty fun though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schulze View Post
    Warranty means if they boogered up the manufacture or design then they'll make it right.

    You cannot knock a product around for six months, break it, and expect to cry "warranty".
    That's exactly what a warranty is for. If a product breaks from normal use within the expected lifespan, there's a de facto assumption of a defect. This is implicit to the warranty promise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Schulze View Post
    You cannot knock a product around for six months, break it, and expect to cry "warranty".
    Australian consumer law makes the point that its all dependant on what is reasonable for the purpose and price. a $5000 mountain bike designed for going off road it is certainly reasonable to expect it to last some years in it's intended use. It doesn't stop shops trying to deny claims though (and it's also a part of why things cost so much more here)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vader View Post
    That reminds me of Rocky Mountain. I bought a DH Race and Element Race in 98. The owners manual stated the warranty would be void if the bikes were used in competition, at the same time Kranked was released, lol. I never had an issue with any RM I've owned
    I can see the competition issue to a point. If you take a lower-end ride and race it as hard as anything else, something is probably going to give out. Most of the lower end components and suspension will break when you push it hard. Racing can push your equipment right to the breaking point, there is no doubt. I'm amazed at how hard I can ride my XC bike while doing "XC". If you have a rough downhill, isn't the point to go as fast as possible in a race? So You are obviously going to try to ride just as fast, if not faster, than if you rode the same hill on an enduro bike. In some cases, this is more than possible due to the enduro bike carrying extra weight and slowing down more, and the hill doesn't get any smoother when you go faster, in fact you are probably doing it with less travel on the XC rig. Such is racing IME. I think the companies are trying to balance out people that know what they are doing vs. people that are just being downright dangerous and ignorant to their bike's build and capability.

    But yeah, if you build a bike called the "DH Race", what do you expect (as well as any other top-end frame and build offered by manufacturers that is raced by the "team")?

    Here was mine:
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    Eventually what killed it was the lack of a replaceable derailleur hanger and inability to get parts. Those early bushings were pretty bad too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    No, it's not that simple. They can write BS like that into the warranty, but if someone takes them to court and shows that they have all sorts of vids and promotion showing the bike being jumped around, that's the "normal use". You can't take something like a enduro bike and say "not warrantied for jumping". It's OBVIOUSLY meant for it, it may not be meant for the same size and intensity of a full-on DH bike, but you can't just insert BS into a contract or warranty that isn't based on reality like that. It falls apart in court rather fast with a preponderance of evidence contrary to the manufacturer. It does matter. It doesn't mean that you can abuse it beyond it's intended use. Racing is a bit more of a grey area, some cars are warrantied for it, some are not. The ones that are covered are usually obviously intended for it, so that helps to navigate the grey area a bit, but in general you can't design a bike for a certain purpose and they say "haha no!" when the consumer goes to warranty it for that same purpose.
    The grey area is how does the manufacturer decide at what weight, distance, height, etc. the bike will be designed to jump for AND how to you deal with that on the warranty end? This bike is ok for warranty b/c the jump was less than 4' and the ride was within the designed weight range blah blah blah There is just no way to put warranties in place for things that are used for these purposes and have everyone get taken care of. Are you really going to go to court for a broken frame? Breaking something doesn't mean it was manufactured incorrectly. I think people are using "warranty against manufacturer defects" and "guarantee" interchangeably. I "guarantee" our bike will hold up when you send it or your money back. I "warranty" our bike from defects in craftmanship for X years to the original owner add list of disclaimers i.e. no racing, no jumping, etc. I still say "pay to play". The post above was spot on - it's being used as insurance by many.
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    Steven,
    You're complaint to us is lacking in details and facts. What is the make/model/year of the broken frame? Show us some pictures of the failure.

    If the resolution to your problem would be to buy a welding outfit, there's no downside to doing it yourself. Send us pictures of that project, too.

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    I had a chainstay break on an FS Specialized. The bike was just a year or two old and since it was a fully, the chainstay was considered a suspension component. I had to pay for it. While disassembling the frame, I found cracks in the webbing that the rear suspension pivoted on. Now, the main triangle was cracked.
    Speshy covered it and sent me a whole frame.
    Then, a few years ago, I cracked my 907 frame right where the top tube and seat post meet. I'm 6'5", so I had a lot of seat post showing, plus it was a setback post and I was running 29+ wheels instead of fat. 907 offered to sell me a frame for 299. I thought it was fair but my wife balked so I had a friend weld it. Still riding that bike today. Without the setback post or skinny wheels.
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  97. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexdi View Post
    That's exactly what a warranty is for. If a product breaks from normal use within the expected lifespan, there's a de facto assumption of a defect. This is implicit to the warranty promise.
    Yup.

    I've lost count of how many chainstays I've broken across different FS bikes, at least 6 or 7 Specialized, a couple Haros and a Kona . Both Specialized and Haro took care of replacements in a timely manner, no charge. Kona took care of it, but was it bit more of a PIA to deal with. Specialized also gave me complete (and upgraded) frames a copule times when I cracked main "triangles'.
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  98. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    I've often wondered how light my bikes could be if they didn't have to be engineered for all you clydes.
    Or riders with skill.

    I've rode with a ~150 lb pro who has broken just about every bike he's ever owned.

  99. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    I don't know why everyone sees these pictures and instantly assumes these broke on one ride.

    I've slammed the pedals into so many rocks and gotten thrown from the bike in the process with these things that I have no issues with them eventually breaking. IMO, anything would have broken, including forged hollow aluminum cranks. These things did SoMo, Tiger Mtn, Colorado, etc., multiple times and with many many hits over the years. No problems. I ordered some X01s to replace them, due to the similar construction.

    These are solid. I would not run Nexts on this Enduro bike though, for the same reason you state.
    I hope you aren't assuming that I'm assuming. I reasoned that with the forces involved, I'd rather break a cheap crank than an expensive one, which is going to happen with the impacts it sees. If I was just racing XC then I'd go super light carbon for sure.

  100. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexdi View Post
    That's exactly what a warranty is for. If a product breaks from normal use within the expected lifespan, there's a de facto assumption of a defect. This is implicit to the warranty promise.
    Warranty is not a blanket term, and there is always fine print. Some people hear warranty and think it covers everything, while the reality can be much different.

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