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  1. #1
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    Line Choice and Trail Impact

    I bought a new frame yesterday. I've been riding a hand-me-down Peyto Wild Bill from 2002ish for the last 8 years. It finally cracked. I'll fix it, but the cost of stripping, repair, and refinish on such an old frame almost equals picking up a "New" old stock frame on closeout. I went with the budget Chromag.

    On researching the frames I found at a price I was willing to spend, I came to a review with nice glossy photos and this one really bugged me. I build a lot of trail and get paid to work on some of my local trails. Anyone who is committed to this type of thing spends a lot of time fighting trail creep anywhere a root or rock starts to poke out of the tread.

    It is astounding what riders will do to avoid a bump, a root, a rock. When I started riding the point was to ride over everything you could. Now....for many many riders....AVOID AT ALL COSTS.

    Why Mountain Bike? Why choose to ride off of a prepared surface? You're #ucking ruining it. Tight, twisty, featured trail. That is the ideal. Stay on the damn line. When I look at the picture below I see a really nice feature. On a nice steel frame I imagine a slight un-weight and feeling the pop of my back tire initiating a moment of flight. An instant of float as my tire traces over the surface with as light a touch as a painters brush....a surgeon's scalpel...like the tip of a finger reading poetry in braille.

    Instead....They leave their mark in the fauna. They push the edge of the trail out. They widen the track into some blown-out whore-version of what once was a tight, magical ribbon of virgin delight... calling us deeper into the lush, loamy forest where anything might happen.

    WTF?

    Please consider that our trails die by a thousand cuts. Every rider choosing the path of mediocrity, of stasis, holding on to a lack of skill and therefore an abandonment of personal progression.

    Please. If you find yourself making such poor choices of line...find an easier trail. Go flow bro. If you have made the choice to ride a bicycle on trails that present a challenge, take that challenge head on. Confront your fear. Progress. Fall. Fail. Give yourself the opportunity to grow, to progress as a rider, and a person.

    STAY ON TRAIL FerChrisSake. I don't want to fix your mess, and you're not fully understanding that you are, in fact, ruining the experience for the rest of us....and causing folks like me to clean up after you instead of building more new, cool $#!T to ride.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Line Choice and Trail Impact-chromag-pic.jpg  


  2. #2
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    Thanks for posting.

    My local trails are quickly becoming a series of linked figure 8's instead of curvy, sinuous singletrack. The reason is simple: People are going around every trail obstacle instead of over them. We (riders, the industry, internet forums, and especially media outlets) are failing at educating new riders about the way things are supposed to be, and have for too long turned a blind eye to the schralp-style endur-bro videos that encourage this sort of behavior.

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    Yup, all that suspension travel and modern geo and people still ride around every trivial rock on the trail.

    Worse than trail creep is sanitizing and creation of shortcuts and b-lines. I have a few trails I ride regularly and it seems every ride someone has pulled an embedded rock or two out of the tread. Or, they full on cut a switchback or ride off trail around a rock. If you try and cover the b-line it is inevitably uncovered next time. I don't get it. If you want an easy trail we have tons of those around.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    STAY ON TRAIL FerChrisSake. I don't want to fix your mess, and you're not fully understanding that you are, in fact, ruining the experience for the rest of us....and causing folks like me to clean up after you instead of building more new, cool $#!T to ride.
    A lot of that is due to ignorance. A majority of riders don't spend time on forums and aren't part of the local riding groups, and as a result are simply not aware of basic trail etiquette.

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    Thank you DaveVt 

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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by coke View Post
    A lot of that is due to ignorance. A majority of riders don't spend time on forums and aren't part of the local riding groups, and as a result are simply not aware of basic trail etiquette.
    Ignorance? Yes. But I'd put it more in an "ignorant, entitled lazy douchebag A-hole" context than an "Aw shucks, he just didn't know better" context. The latter would stop doing it once you point it out to them. Or hopefully have the common sense to figure it out on their own. What we have most of is the former, and that unfortunately comes with "growing the sport" and the proliferation of IMBA'fied flow trail that is devoid of anything technical or difficult. People are no longer forced to learn to ride technical trail and instead they inevitably take the easy way out, forcing the lowest common denominator on everyone. Joining a forum or ride group has nothing to do with it. Look around. Sure everyone here posts up their disdain for sanitizing trail but I bet you half of those people are the ones who blaze down the b-line after someone else creates it.

    I don't know what the answer is. In popular trail system or near a population center it's a losing battle. Block the b-lines and ride-arounds when you see them. Dig the rocks (bigger ones) back into the trail. Call people out.

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    Very well said!!!^^^^^^

  8. #8
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    The cycling/mtb clubs do a good job of educating newbies in my area. Through local group rides and trailhead socializing, trail stewards are always trying to educate. You can't reach everyone.

    IMO, roadies have a similar learning curve with roadie-noobs: how to hold a pace line, how to communicate debris (pot holes, glass, rocks) are in the road, how to ride in a pack, etc. Best way to educate is by setting a positive example.

  9. #9
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    I can't help thinking that somewhere there is a Wilderness nut complaining that trails shouldn't be built for bikes at all and if you're too wimpy to hike you don't belong in the woods.

  10. #10
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    Agreed. You’re probably preaching to the choir though.

  11. #11
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    I'm sorry, but what exactly is that rider in the picture doing that has you so upset? Riding a little right of center so he can pop off the root?

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by smithcreek View Post
    I'm sorry, but what exactly is that rider in the picture doing that has you so upset? Riding a little right of center so he can pop off the root?
    THat's what I see.

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    Looks like he's right at the edge of the trail to avoid the roots. Center line, he'll skip right over them. imho. Dumbing down happens everywhere. Boston area rider. Cutting corners, pulling out rocks, ugggh, it's New England, it's mostly rocks. Some dirt in between them. The worst? Spending trail time to fix this instead of building sweet single track. Sucks.

  14. #14
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    About a week ago we still had snowpack in central CT trails I ride. A buddy and I drove 1.5hrs into South/Central Mass to try a new place because there was no snow up there. It was clear that folks spend lots of time keeping things clear up there for intermediate level riders and they do a great job. Regardless, it's still fun for experienced riders because you can push your speed in the twisty's to make up for the lack of challenges.

    In 13 miles I remember ONE older 6" log laying directly across the trail. There was zero challenge for me to pop over it but I was amazed to see a well worn in 'go around' that looped around the end of it. This kinda blew me away...I could see an occasional novice being intimidated and going around but not enough where there is a completely worn in trail around it!
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  15. #15
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    we had a massive log 25 years old, everyone popped over it dead center. it only looked scary.

    well as our riding place got more popular we see these entitled d-bags riding more and more, and now cut through and trail widening happens....then guess what some a-hole of the highest order brought in a chainsaw in and cut that friggin favorite log.

    unbelievable. it was a feature, revered by all. nope. entitled d-bag had to go wreck it
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by smithcreek View Post
    I'm sorry, but what exactly is that rider in the picture doing that has you so upset? Riding a little right of center so he can pop off the root?
    A little right of center? Dudes in the bushes so far to his right the trail is barely in the pic.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by evdog View Post
    Sure everyone here posts up their disdain for sanitizing trail but I bet you half of those people are the ones who blaze down the b-line after someone else creates it.
    If past MTBR threads are an indication, not everyone here disdains trail sanitizing. And even worse, plenty of folks seem to like it enough to practice it openly.

    Couple years back, an old angry hiker/sierra club member/known MTB hater took it upon himself to start doing unauthorized trail maintenance on a what was one of the most technical local trails. He took what was a the most challenging 1 mile section of trail that a majority of riders found very challenging (all of it was 100% ridable) and removed every last root and rock, widened the trail to 3x its original width, totally screwed up the drainage, cut out live trees, put in dangerously constructed log steps that caused a number or riders to crash, and dug huge vertical walled borrow pits on a steep slope destabilizing it. All in the name of "making it safe for hikers." It changed a trail that was "self-policing" in that very very few people attempted it in the wet due to slick off camber roots on sections with exposure and slow average speeds, to a wide open super highway that people that wouldn't even ride it could not hit speeds well in excess of 20 mph (creating a danger to hikers that never existed before).

    This is the worst example of trail sanitization I've ever seen (1 mile of very old school tech changed to a dirst sidewalk without a single root or rock). First time I saw how bad it was, I was ranting about it to my freinds at the trailhead, as another group of riders rode up. Their take? "Isn't it great!"

    Unfortunately, these people are amongst us.
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by twd953 View Post
    Unfortunately, these people are amongst us.
    Yeah I know. The comment above was in reference to the often heard forum statement "no one on this forum would do that..." yet when you're out on the trail you'll see that most people do exactly that.

    So this whole time the hiker/hater was doing all this work, did no one see him? That is the exact time he should be called out, have pictures taken, have arms and legs broken (joking...sort of) or turned in to the local land manager. If the work he did was that bad, they would likely want to have a talk with him.

  19. #19
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    I think there has always been a measure of people skirting technical obstacles where there is nothing adjacent to the trail tread (rocks, trees, logs, drop off etc..) that prevents tread widening, but it surely has gotten worse in the last 5+ years.

    I think it's somewhat human nature that riders are going to take the path of least resistance, like water flowing down a hill. If you've got off camber roots and nothing on the downslope edge of the tread, riders will naturally start drifting towards (and beyond) the downslope edge. I may not like it, but at least it's somewhat understandable, and from a trail builders perspective, predictable and relatively easily remedied (even if I'd rather be building something new rather than forcing riders to stay on the trail).

    The difference I see now, that I don't recall seeing in the days before Enduro racing became popular, is riders intentionally riding outside the trail tread. If there is a chicane in the trail, people will straight line through it. If there is a tight switchback turn, you'll see people riding way up onto the backslope to widen the turn and gain an advantage. That trick is something you I've seen a lot of in Enduro race coverage/videos. I recall even seeing videos putting it out there as an acceptable or preferred method for getting around a tight turn. They romanticize it by calling it "taking French lines" where anything that isn't taped off is fair game.

    That is a difference I see nowadays, that I never saw before. Old school was to ride the trail, as is, as fast as possible (coloring between the lines) vs new school of just being the fastest at all costs.

    I liken it to the phrase I use when I'm driving my car on a road where somebody tailgates me in a straight section of road, then totally can't even stay in sight behind me when the road gets twisty. And that phrase is "Any idiot can go fast in a straight line."

    So adapt that to, "any idiot can go fast if they cut the trail."
    Last edited by twd953; 3 Weeks Ago at 02:02 PM.
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  20. #20
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    Good lord, people are a bunch of whiners.

    Theres 350 *million* people in the US, some will choose a ride a bicycle differently than you will. You'll live, they'll live, the trail will live.

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    Quote Originally Posted by One Pivot View Post
    Good lord, people are a bunch of whiners.

    Theres 350 *million* people in the US, some will choose a ride a bicycle differently than you will. You'll live, they'll live, the trail will live.
    How much time do you spend on trail work every year?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    we had a massive log 25 years old, everyone popped over it dead center. it only looked scary.

    well as our riding place got more popular we see these entitled d-bags riding more and more, and now cut through and trail widening happens....then guess what some a-hole of the highest order brought in a chainsaw in and cut that friggin favorite log.

    unbelievable. it was a feature, revered by all. nope. entitled d-bag had to go wreck it
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    How much time do you spend on trail work every year?
    I help when I can, and I still think people are whiners.

    Seriously man, take a deep breath and look at that picture. Its some guy riding his bike. Its fine. Honestly, its fine.

    Some places I ride I do a little work on every year, and some other people do a lot of work on every year, and then it rains and they bring in cattle to destroy everything. For some time, the trail is not rideable... then it smooths out naturally and we make some repairs and do it again.

    Some years the trails flood out, and wash completely out, by no fault of any person. Some years they seem pristine all season with less work than usual. Sometimes a new line appears.

    Sometimes it seems like the trail nazis are just looking for things to be upset about. Isnt riding a bike supposed to be a way to chill out and relax? Have some fun?

    Think about whats being proposed by some people... if you're building a bike trail, for bikes to ride on, and bikes riding on it is ruining the trail, I think something went wrong. Isnt that fair?

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    I see so little context in the picture, that I don't understand the freak out.

    Yes, I know I tend to take chunkier lines than most. So when I see something like this, with what little is in the picture, I imagine myself launching off that first root, then landing a ways down the trail instead of slow rolling down it.

    Maybe this guy is taking an easier option, maybe he is taking the harder option. It is a still moment in time with about 5' of trail visible. And as he is back up against a fallen log, it doesn't seem anyone can really widen the trail.

    Maybe you guys just need to ride more, and internet less. You are getting worked up with something that looks like nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by twd953 View Post
    They romanticize it by calling it "taking French lines" where anything that isn't taped off is fair game.
    This is an issue in the ultra running world because in Europe, if the course isn't taped, you are specifically allowed to cut straight through. In the states, people have been disqualified at events for cutting the course because the event organizers didn't specify that they have to stay on marked trails.

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    Quote Originally Posted by One Pivot View Post
    ....and bikes riding on it....
    Now we're on the same page. I build trails for people to ride on. Not around. If one finds they are riding off trail or out near the very edge of what-has-become the trail to avoid trail features like roots or rocks.....they need to find a more appropriate trail for their ability. Or walk on the trail through that section.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by twd953 View Post

    That is a difference I see nowdays, that I never saw before. Old school was to ride the trail, as is, as fast as possible (coloring between the lines) vs new school of just being the fastest at all costs.
    This. This is it exactly. Even when I lived in New England, which is allegedly a mecca of technical riding, I saw people cutting corners to save a 1/10th of a second here and there. Now that I live in SE MI, where the concept of technical riding is seemingly absent, it's even worse. The trails here look like the autobahn, and some jack@ss has even taken to chopping the 2"-3" roots out of absolutely straight, flat singletrack. Why?!

    It can't all be just Strava-holes. They can't have that many users. It's something different, it's a fundamental shift in attitude/perspective - a "me first" approach that doesn't give a rat's @ss about anyone else, or improving their own skills. It's sad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by One Pivot View Post
    Theres 350 *million* people in the US, some will choose a ride a bicycle differently than you will. You'll live, they'll live, the trail will live.

    Exactly, I can't see any problem with the way the guy in the photo is riding but even if I did I'd just let it go. Can't change the world.
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Pivot View Post
    I help when I can, and I still think people are whiners.

    Seriously man, take a deep breath and look at that picture. Its some guy riding his bike. Its fine. Honestly, its fine.

    Some places I ride I do a little work on every year, and some other people do a lot of work on every year, and then it rains and they bring in cattle to destroy everything. For some time, the trail is not rideable... then it smooths out naturally and we make some repairs and do it again.

    Some years the trails flood out, and wash completely out, by no fault of any person. Some years they seem pristine all season with less work than usual. Sometimes a new line appears.

    Sometimes it seems like the trail nazis are just looking for things to be upset about. Isnt riding a bike supposed to be a way to chill out and relax? Have some fun?

    Think about whats being proposed by some people... if you're building a bike trail, for bikes to ride on, and bikes riding on it is ruining the trail, I think something went wrong. Isnt that fair?
    What a calm, reasonable response. Thank you and I agree completely.
    How can anyone who's been riding as long as I have, be so slow???

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    If one finds they are riding off trail or out near the very edge of what-has-become the trail to avoid trail features like roots or rocks.....they need to find a more appropriate trail for their ability.
    It sounds to me like they found the more appropriate trail already.

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    Quote Originally Posted by One Pivot View Post
    It sounds to me like they found the more appropriate trail already.
    You don't get it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by smithcreek View Post
    I'm sorry, but what exactly is that rider in the picture doing that has you so upset?
    Isn't it obvious? He's riding a bike with a 24" rear wheel! Who does that any more???

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    Isn't it obvious? He's riding a bike with a 24" rear wheel! Who does that any more???
    No one! Now folks are riding 150mm + travel droppah post carbon wonder bikes and they still don't have the skills, or the ballz, or common sense to STAY ON THE F'ING TRAIL.

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    When I'm In the flow and at mach 3 I find these trail 'detours' a real distraction.

    When I'm out alone with no witnesses I sometimes stop and make an adjustment to those sanitized get arounds.
    When I'm done they are at least twice as hard as the original line and occasionally no longer rideable.
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  35. #35
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    OP, can you post a link to the article from which you grabbed the pic?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    OP, can you post a link to the article from which you grabbed the pic?
    It was a review of the Chromag Aperture used in a few publications. Actually a couple pics of dude evading features... https://www.pinkbike.com/news/Chroma...re-Review.html
    There's 2 photos from the same location. In neither photo is Dude taking the features head on.
    It really comes down to active line choice vs being pushed around features passively. As we ride trail we should be aware of how our line choice impacts the trail. All I'm saying. As Whitewater kayakers like to say when line choice is in doubt....Hey diddle diddle....right down the middle. Mud holes, same philosophy. General muddy conditions obviously wait for trails to dry, but those few random mud holes...right down the middle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    It was a review of the Chromag Aperture used in a few publications. Actually a couple pics of dude evading features... https://www.pinkbike.com/news/Chroma...re-Review.html
    There's 2 photos from the same location. In neither photo is Dude taking the features head on.
    It really comes down to active line choice vs being pushed around features passively. As we ride trail we should be aware of how our line choice impacts the trail. All I'm saying. As Whitewater kayakers like to say when line choice is in doubt....Hey diddle diddle....right down the middle. Mud holes, same philosophy. General muddy conditions obviously wait for trails to dry, but those few random mud holes...right down the middle.
    In the article, 2 photo up is the overhead shot of the same section. To me, I don't see how can one be off the trail right there (it's bounded) and it looks like the right line is the fun (and possibly) faster line where you can bump jump all the way down.


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    Seriously though, if you wanted to start the bi-monthly mtbr rant about trail-sanitizing you could easily have found a much better picture. Or you could just scroll 1/4 of the way down the page and find the last time the subject was beat to death and add your comment to the bottom of that one. By using the picture you did you will just come off as a trail nazi that frowns on popping off roots and rocks on the edge of the trail, or more to the point, doing anything that you "don't approve" of.

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    There are two topics here that are getting convoluted and distracting the point of this post I believe. Trail sanitizing is removing or editing a feature to make it more 'ridable', 'easier', 'imba friendly', etc. Riding on the edge of the trail (OP's point) and widening it is very different.

    Sanitizing is bad. I don't like.

    Riding around stuff - who cares?! If you and I are on a ride together, I am 100% not taking the lines that you are. I make my own decision based on how I perceive the trail and what I think is the fastest/safest/most fun/etc line.

    Did you ever think that other people go out with different intentions for their ride than you? I pull up to the trail head with my 160mm bike all Enduro'd out (lol) and there is a guy on a race hardtail in lycra. I am out here for fun - to jump off of things, to ride stupid stuff, to work on my skills. I don't care if my ride is 5 miles or 50 - its about fun and improving. The other guy is out here to go fast. He is in race mode, training and going to put as many miles behind him as possible. Is one of us wrong? If I jump those roots and he wiggles a slippery fast line around them? No. Am i more skilled than him for doing ^? Not necessarily.

    If it is that easy for someone to 'destroy' your trails by choosing their own lines, perhaps the trails weren't sustainable to begin with.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gumby_rider View Post
    In the article, 2 photo up is the overhead shot of the same section. To me, I don't see how can one be off the trail right there (it's bounded) and it looks like the right line is the fun (and possibly) faster line where you can bump jump all the way down.

    Why not try and stay on the middle of the trail and pop off the roots...in the middle of the trail....and jump the rest. That's how'd I'd attack the feature.

    People will take a different inference if they want to get it twisted. My point...always be trying to hold the center line and attack the feature head-on. Yes, even if it is off-camber or in some other way a challenge. I never mentioned sanitizing trails in my OP. I did not search out this photo to prove this point. I was searching out some reviews on the frame and observing the line choices in the photos prompted another thought. That thought was why is dude riding way out on the edges, or slightly off trail. There is some irony in the fact that that the review talks about HTs as a great way to refine skills in the "Off Season" of gravity riding. Line choices like that certainly won't.

    Trail Nazi? Guilty I guess. That's doesn't mean my thoughts have no validity in terms of minimizing impact by choosing lines that keep you within the trail boundaries as much as possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tims5377 View Post
    There are two topics here that are getting convoluted and distracting the point of this post I believe. Trail sanitizing is removing or editing a feature to make it more 'ridable', 'easier', 'imba friendly', etc. Riding on the edge of the trail (OP's point) and widening it is very different.

    Sanitizing is bad. I don't like.

    Riding around stuff - who cares?! If you and I are on a ride together, I am 100% not taking the lines that you are. I make my own decision based on how I perceive the trail and what I think is the fastest/safest/most fun/etc line.

    Did you ever think that other people go out with different intentions for their ride than you? I pull up to the trail head with my 160mm bike all Enduro'd out (lol) and there is a guy on a race hardtail in lycra. I am out here for fun - to jump off of things, to ride stupid stuff, to work on my skills. I don't care if my ride is 5 miles or 50 - its about fun and improving. The other guy is out here to go fast. He is in race mode, training and going to put as many miles behind him as possible. Is one of us wrong? If I jump those roots and he wiggles a slippery fast line around them? No. Am i more skilled than him for doing ^? Not necessarily.

    If it is that easy for someone to 'destroy' your trails by choosing their own lines, perhaps the trails weren't sustainable to begin with.
    Trail creep is considered by most to be bad. Exposing root beds of trees is considered, around here, to be one of the most negative impacts of MTBing, and as part of a pro crew, one were for instructed to address while working on public trail networks.

    In addition, the aesthetic value of MTBing is enhanced by SINGLE TRACK. There's a reason that word came into existence. It implies a narrow track. Wide enough for a single line. Is that not what we're going for in terms of the ideal trail? Maybe this is where a divergence in expectation is happening. I don't get choosing to ride trails with features, then avoiding them. That's it.

    I like to jump. I jump a lot. I build trails with all kinds of jumps and drops. People ride around them.

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    Around me, I often see where someone decides to cut around the other side of a small tree and then it gets done enough to wear in a new path, really just a wider path with a tree in the middle rather than a true alt line. And my closest trail, in a NPS park, there is a rocky descent/ascent that someone has decided is too rough and worn in a new line on the bank above it where it is smooth. It was/is one of only a couple of places on the trail that offered any technical challenge and it wasn't all that difficult, I've ridden it on my CX bike in both directions but I guess it was too hard or too bumpy for someone's liking.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oh My Sack! View Post
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    Apparently, the guy in this video is the same guy in those pictures. He definitely needs to work on his skills instead of just going around all the features.

    https://www.pinkbike.com/video/484980/

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    Quote Originally Posted by smithcreek View Post
    Apparently, the guy in this video is the same guy in those pictures. He definitely needs to work on his skills instead of just going around all the features.

    https://www.pinkbike.com/video/484980/
    Was that supposed to be impressive?
    Here's me from almost 20 years ago...on a HT with a Z1.
    Ended up moving the ramp back 15 feet in the in first pic because of over jumping. Basically landing almost out of the pic.
    Lot's of great riders out there with no trail sense.
    Carry on....
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    Sure. But without seeing where the trail goes, who is to say which is more fun for him? He is not off the trail and either ways it's still roots so why does it matter? Do you complain when people ride too low or too high on berms as well?

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    Why not try and stay on the middle of the trail and pop off the roots...in the middle of the trail....and jump the rest. That's how'd I'd attack the feature.

    People will take a different inference if they want to get it twisted. My point...always be trying to hold the center line and attack the feature head-on. Yes, even if it is off-camber or in some other way a challenge. I never mentioned sanitizing trails in my OP. I did not search out this photo to prove this point. I was searching out some reviews on the frame and observing the line choices in the photos prompted another thought. That thought was why is dude riding way out on the edges, or slightly off trail. There is some irony in the fact that that the review talks about HTs as a great way to refine skills in the "Off Season" of gravity riding. Line choices like that certainly won't.

    Trail Nazi? Guilty I guess. That's doesn't mean my thoughts have no validity in terms of minimizing impact by choosing lines that keep you within the trail boundaries as much as possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    Was that supposed to be impressive?
    Here's me from almost 20 years ago...on a HT with a Z1.
    Ended up moving the ramp back 15 feet in the in first pic because of over jumping. Basically landing almost out of the pic.
    Lot's of great riders out there with no trail sense.
    Carry on....


    Some people would argue that hauling lumber into the woods to build ramps is more esthetically displeasing than a trail that gets a little wide here and there.
    I brake for stinkbugs

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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Some people would argue that hauling lumber into the woods to build ramps is more esthetically displeasing than a trail that gets a little wide here and there.
    Mostly natural. 2 2x12....same one in both photos. Ended up taking the first feature down to build the second one. Yeah, no one uses dimentional lumber on MTB trails anymore. RollEyes.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIk5qFsUYu8
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nVqPLVUX18
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJj90-Ja7Sk
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xb9qwVrpgVQ
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDGOKGS8EOI
    They go on and on.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    Was that supposed to be impressive?
    Here's me from almost 20 years ago...on a HT with a Z1.
    Ended up moving the ramp back 15 feet in the in first pic because of over jumping. Basically landing almost out of the pic.
    Lot's of great riders out there with no trail sense.
    Carry on....
    Your main point that started all this was the picture you claimed showed a guy, with no skills, that needed to widen the trail in order to avoid a difficult line. The video shows pretty clearly you've got the wrong guy. Your jump pics look like a lot of fun! But don't tell Hacksaw Reynolds about them unless they were complete trails. If it was just a short lines off of a main trail to hit a good feature, that would get HIS panties all in a bunch and he'd have to start a thread and post your pictures with the caption "why do people have to create lines just to hit jumps? keep singletrack single!", or some other self-righteous nonsense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by smithcreek View Post
    Your main point that started all this was the picture you claimed showed a guy, with no skills, that needed to widen the trail in order to avoid a difficult line. The video shows pretty clearly you've got the wrong guy. Your jump pics look like a lot of fun! But don't tell Hacksaw Reynolds about them unless they were complete trails. If it was just a short lines off of a main trail to hit a good feature, that would get HIS panties all in a bunch and he'd have to start a thread and post your pictures with the caption "why do people have to create lines just to hit jumps? keep singletrack single!", or some other self-righteous nonsense.
    Fake news. The photo illustrates poor line choice in terms of rider impact. I know nothing about the individual and never claimed to. Stop trolling. We disagree. Those lines did in fact exist as part of a trail the went from x to y. FWIW. My point is clear for those who wish to think on it....for the trolls....Carry on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    Mostly natural.

    A wider trail is mostly natural too. I understand that people have different opinions about what qualities make the best trail, just saying that yours or mine might not line up with someone else's. It's a perfect world but not for everyone.
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    A wider trail is mostly natural too. I understand that people have different opinions about what qualities make the best trail, just saying that yours or mine might not line up with someone else's. It's a perfect world but not for everyone.
    Yes. Erosion is natural. So you like wide, highly impacted mountain bike trail as your ideal? In that case you should constantly ride off the edge of the trail anywhere you can, you'll have it.

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    I have trouble understanding what the fuss is all about, there is more change/damage/progress associated with the creation of one small American sub-division than there is done by all the bikes in the world.

    My local trails had a timber harvest last year. The feller buncher and skidder made more changes to the drainage and trail routing than a million mountain bikes could ever do, and nobody cared at all.

    Have any of you guys worked for an excavation company? They'll tell you, "it's just fn dirt, you can't hurt it".
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  53. #53
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    In the overhead photo of the rider in question he's all the way to the left. Maybe that angled root in the center freaks him out?

    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I have trouble understanding what the fuss is all about, there is more change/damage/progress associated with the creation of one small American sub-division than there is done by all the bikes in the world.

    My local trails had a timber harvest last year. The feller buncher and skidder made more changes to the drainage and trail routing than a million mountain bikes could ever do, and nobody cared at all.

    Have any of you guys worked for an excavation company? They'll tell you, "it's just fn dirt, you can't hurt it".
    Nobody cared that the timber machines changed up the trails? I bet somebody cared. People (other than developers) generally object to suburban sprawl too. People accept it because they want a nice house and neighborhood but they'd prefer to keep natural areas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    Yes. Erosion is natural. So you like wide, highly impacted mountain bike trail as your ideal?
    Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. Actually I'd prefer that all trails were 4 lanes wide and paved. (rolleyes)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miker J View Post
    There's too many men.
    Too many people.
    Making too many problems.
    And not much love to go round.
    Can't you see...
    I'm not going to look that lyric up. It will come to me later in the day.

    Regarding widening the trail, when I first started biking, I wondered what all the fuss was about. Not long after I ran across areas of trail braiding in wooded areas that made the trail 6 feet wide. Erosion issues aside, I don't know how to explain it other than it's kind of a bummer. Instead of riding a tight line, you are wandering around on a wide "road". Not the end of the world, but...

    You know what sucks? When you're not paying attention, and realize you just rode a Srava line and helped reinforce it - UGH!

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    Quote Originally Posted by smithcreek View Post
    Apparently, the guy in this video is the same guy in those pictures. He definitely needs to work on his skills instead of just going around all the features.

    https://www.pinkbike.com/video/484980/
    Well now that I have seen this video, its obvious the rider is not at fault. The bicycle manufacturer is to blame!! The bicycle is unable to hold a line! :-P

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    Quote Originally Posted by j.b. Weld View Post
    some people would argue that hauling lumber into the woods to build ramps is more esthetically displeasing than a trail that gets a little wide here and there.
    bam!

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    Fake news. The photo illustrates poor line choice in terms of rider impact. I know nothing about the individual and never claimed to. Stop trolling. We disagree. Those lines did in fact exist as part of a trail the went from x to y. FWIW. My point is clear for those who wish to think on it....for the trolls....Carry on.
    Nice try. Start a troll thread and call anyone that disagrees a troll. Do you seriously think you "won the internet" today or something? I spent some time last year figuring out who was sanitizing my local trails, I mean actually cutting out 2" diameter roots so they could remove the 100 lb rocks trapped under them that had been part of the trail for decades. I tracked down coaches of the local high school league, spoke with them, had them talk to the league who spoke with the kids and more importantly the parents of the kids because it turns out it was the parents who rode with their kids that were trying to make the trails easier for junior. A friend and I also made signs and posted them at numerous spots on the trail where the sanitizing had been happening. Results were, after a month or so it ended. That was a problem worth doing something about, but trying to herd every rider down the center of the trail? I'll leave that up to someone who enjoys beating their head against a wall.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    In the overhead photo of the rider in question he's all the way to the left. Maybe that angled root in the center freaks him out?



    Nobody cared that the timber machines changed up the trails? I bet somebody cared.
    Nope, the land was donated so it could continued to be used for traditional purposes, including timber harvesting, hunting and recreation. A couple hours with a couple of ho's to touch up drainage and a little smoothing, ready for use.

    Having access to the land includes helping to take care of it and accepting that not everything will be done my way.
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  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    Having access to the land includes helping to take care of it and accepting that not everything will be done my way.
    ^^^ READ THIS ^^^



    Now read it again.
    It pertains to trail building, maintenance, riding, hiking, who can use it, what can be done etc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JACKL View Post
    I'm not going to look that lyric up. It will come to me later in the day.
    Phil Collins
    You're entitled to your own opinion, but you're not entitled to your own facts.

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    Nope, the land was donated so it could continued to be used for traditional purposes, including timber harvesting, hunting and recreation. A couple hours with a couple of ho's to touch up drainage and a little smoothing, ready for use.

    Having access to the land includes helping to take care of it and accepting that not everything will be done my way.
    Where do you live and ride?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tims5377 View Post
    ^^^ READ THIS ^^^



    Now read it again.
    It pertains to trail building, maintenance, riding, hiking, who can use it, what can be done etc.
    So random folks doing whatever they want is a good thing? I get the best use for the majority of trail stuff. Better yet is a land manager, clear set of rules for who gets to work on the trails within guidelines set forth. Otherwise you get trail braids, 8' "paths" through the woods, rogue trails and generally a mess. imho.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. Actually I'd prefer that all trails were 4 lanes wide and paved. (rolleyes)
    Give it ten more years....

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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    Around me, I often see where someone decides to cut around the other side of a small tree and then it gets done enough to wear in a new path, really just a wider path with a tree in the middle rather than a true alt line. And my closest trail, in a NPS park, there is a rocky descent/ascent that someone has decided is too rough and worn in a new line on the bank above it where it is smooth. It was/is one of only a couple of places on the trail that offered any technical challenge and it wasn't all that difficult, I've ridden it on my CX bike in both directions but I guess it was too hard or too bumpy for someone's liking.
    Here's what I was talking about:

    Line Choice and Trail Impact-tree_around_2.jpg

    Line Choice and Trail Impact-tree_around.jpg

    Line Choice and Trail Impact-sope_widened_trail.jpg

    original trail on the right; "I don't wanna ride rocks so I'll widen the trail" on the left.
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    We get the same thing (top picture) on our trails. On ours it is a combination of A) I don't want to hit my head on the leaning tree so I'll go around and B) I went around and now I can't turn sharp enough for the trail/next tree so I'll just straighten the trail out with another braid.

    We don't really have rocks, but for the roots, someone comes in with limestone/gravel and fills in the space between the roots to smooth it out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by evdog View Post
    Yeah I know. The comment above was in reference to the often heard forum statement "no one on this forum would do that..." yet when you're out on the trail you'll see that most people do exactly that.

    So this whole time the hiker/hater was doing all this work, did no one see him? That is the exact time he should be called out, have pictures taken, have arms and legs broken (joking...sort of) or turned in to the local land manager. If the work he did was that bad, they would likely want to have a talk with him.
    Yep, he was seen. He had verbal confrontations with several mountain bikers from what I recall. At one point, the local Forest Service gave him a verbal OK to do some maintenance (why I have no idea), but he went nuts and ruined about a mile of trail and then the Forest Service didn't have the stones to reign him in. They sent him a cease and desist letter from what I was told, but that didn't stop him. He moved off to a different trail and half ruined that too.
    No dig no whine

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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    Here's what I was talking about:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Click image for larger version. 

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    original trail on the right; "I don't wanna ride rocks so I'll widen the trail" on the left.
    Such a goddam travesty^^^^^^. So no ones taken the initiative to block the tree go around braids or pu$$y highline on the bank?

    It boggles my mind that riders think that^^^^^^sh1ts ok.

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    Food for thought regarding trail braiding -- If you're a local who's lived and ridden in a place for many years then you know which line is the original line. However, when you travel to other unfamiliar riding areas sometimes you come across a section that has more than one line choice. Sometimes it's obvious which line is the main line so you take that one. Sometimes all options look equally well-used and you can't tell which was the original line and which is the new line. When that happens what is there to do? I take whichever line looks the most fun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HacksawReynolds View Post
    Such a goddam travesty^^^^^^. So no ones taken the initiative to block the tree go around braids or pu$$y highline on the bank?

    It boggles my mind that riders think that^^^^^^sh1ts ok.
    I do occasionally if it's something new getting started but I need to ask the ranger I know or our SORBA leader if I can do that as it is a NPS park and they are pretty strict on who, when and how maintenance can be done. Which is why I'm shocked at the post above yours.

    Besides the fact that I don't like that happening, I worry that hikers won't like it either and will complain about mountain bikers damaging the trails.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oh My Sack! View Post
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    Actually for me, riding narrow trail and staying centered in the only possible line looses its challenge rapidly.

    Some of the trails I enjoy most have a few sections that are comparatively wide, have multiple lines and each and every line choice is challenging. After you memorize and perfect one line, just move to a new line and it's like a whole new challenge. By the time you've perfected them all, the original line has changed and the fun starts all over.

    Sometimes a trail section widens over time for no reason that I understand. I don't like it. I notice that trail police will try and discourage the new wider section by stacking rocks or moving limbs onto the new tread. I never do this. I wouldn't want to be responsible for someone who assumes the new line and rips around the corner expecting to have it, only to find a stack of rocks or limbs. Most of the time when a new line develops spontaneously, it develops for a reason and it's an improvement. Sometimes it's a result of straight lining. I understand that even if I don't like it.

    The trails that are featureless and wide are almost always that way because of hikers. For some reason hikers really, really want to walk side by side instead of in single file.
    Consciousness, that annoying time between bike rides.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lopaka View Post
    Actually for me, riding narrow trail and staying centered in the only possible line looses its challenge rapidly.

    Some of the trails I enjoy most have a few sections that are comparatively wide, have multiple lines and each and every line choice is challenging. After you memorize and perfect one line, just move to a new line and it's like a whole new challenge. By the time you've perfected them all, the original line has changed and the fun starts all over.

    Sometimes a trail section widens over time for no reason that I understand. I don't like it. I notice that trail police will try and discourage the new wider section by stacking rocks or moving limbs onto the new tread. I never do this. I wouldn't want to be responsible for someone who assumes the new line and rips around the corner expecting to have it, only to find a stack of rocks or limbs. Most of the time when a new line develops spontaneously, it develops for a reason and it's an improvement. Sometimes it's a result of straight lining. I understand that even if I don't like it.

    The trails that are featureless and wide are almost always that way because of hikers. For some reason hikers really, really want to walk side by side instead of in single file.
    If you are bored with a trail, go find another. And stay on the trail.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lopaka View Post
    Actually for me, riding narrow trail and staying centered in the only possible line looses its challenge rapidly.

    Some of the trails I enjoy most have a few sections that are comparatively wide, have multiple lines and each and every line choice is challenging. After you memorize and perfect one line, just move to a new line and it's like a whole new challenge. By the time you've perfected them all, the original line has changed and the fun starts all over.

    Sometimes a trail section widens over time for no reason that I understand. I don't like it. I notice that trail police will try and discourage the new wider section by stacking rocks or moving limbs onto the new tread. I never do this. I wouldn't want to be responsible for someone who assumes the new line and rips around the corner expecting to have it, only to find a stack of rocks or limbs. Most of the time when a new line develops spontaneously, it develops for a reason and it's an improvement. Sometimes it's a result of straight lining. I understand that even if I don't like it.

    The trails that are featureless and wide are almost always that way because of hikers. For some reason hikers really, really want to walk side by side instead of in single file.
    I get some of this. When I ride with my kid who is now 8, I take him to some of the new excavator built trails. He starts looking for things to ride over off the edge of the trail because the trails are so featureless and boring, even to him.

    Regardless of the fact that you like line options, the land managers see trail creep as increased impact and erosion. By riding off the edge of the trail you are not helping access, and you create work for people who are attempting to keep things tight, and show the powers that be that we are cleaning up after ourselves.

    Stay on the trail please.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HacksawReynolds View Post
    Such a goddam travesty^^^^^^. So no ones taken the initiative to block the tree go around braids or pu$$y highline on the bank?

    It boggles my mind that riders think that^^^^^^sh1ts ok.
    I'll bet more harm has been done by the removal of all naturally occurring soil regenerating organic material than the alternate routes. Only pu$$ies need leaf blown trails!
    Bicycles don't have motors.

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    Hmm, to be fair, I don't know that those tree arounds were caused by bikers and not hikers, though I'm sure the on the bank to avoid the rocks is mtbrs. I see hairpin turn shortcuts developed on hike only trails. That would explain the top picture, the original trail is on the left so the path on the right would put a rider leaning into the tree when descending, though it may have developed going up the trail.

    Mileslong, I questioned if raking the trails completely clean is the best thing to do but apparently it is, it allows the water to easily run off. Wet leaves end up breaking down and clogging up the channel drains and then puddles of mud form on the trail (we have heavy clay soil). Being NPS, we're only allowed to use material native to the area for trail repair. If they were completely left unraked, people would be riding all over the place as you wouldn't know where the trail was. I rode a trail system I'm very familiar with last fall and got confused in several places looking for the trail.

    And Lopaka, I kind get what you are saying but even with a 2-3 ft wide trail, considering the width of a bike tire, you still have lots of line choices, at least around me you do.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    Having access to the land includes helping to take care of it and accepting that not everything will be done my way.
    Yep.

    We have to accept that public land is, well, open to the public.

    Many of the "rules" we builders invent and subscribe to can get silly when viewed in the larger scheme of things.

    Take a step back and take a hard look at these "rules".


    Every trail is different. Every work crew or builder is different. Each has different challenges and demands.

    Its not like there is some stone tablet handed down from the gods dictating how trails are ridden, built, changed, or maintained.

    Lawlessness is not what I'm advocating as that is on the extreme end of the spectrum.

    I'd say that trying to mandate everyone rides (or builds/maintains/changes) a trail how you expect them to is at the other end. It is very controlling and will be viewed by others as you trying to have control over them. Trying to herd mountain bikers does not work well.


    If you want to live and ride in an area where there are a lot of other people, riders, and builders you have to deal with a lot of differences. It is what it is, and stomping feet over "rules" not everyone agrees to suggests an individual has control issues.

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    Clearing leaves every year is not a black-and-white issue. Last year I started not raking our most heavily used single tracks and found traffic was more than enough to keep the line burned in and the trail reverted back to its original narrow state. As the leaves get chewed up they are a constant source of regenerated material that originally covered the trail and they hide some features that mountain bikers passively choose lines around. If traffic is low then some Leaf clearing is necessary to keep the trail easy to find, but at this point in my neck of the woods over-cleaning is much more an issue then not raking at all. No set rules every situation is different in terms of raking and leaf blowing versus not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lopaka View Post
    Actually for me, riding narrow trail and staying centered in the only possible line looses its challenge rapidly.

    Some of the trails I enjoy most have a few sections that are comparatively wide, have multiple lines and each and every line choice is challenging. After you memorize and perfect one line, just move to a new line and it's like a whole new challenge. By the time you've perfected them all, the original line has changed and the fun starts all over.

    Sometimes a trail section widens over time for no reason that I understand. I don't like it. I notice that trail police will try and discourage the new wider section by stacking rocks or moving limbs onto the new tread. I never do this. I wouldn't want to be responsible for someone who assumes the new line and rips around the corner expecting to have it, only to find a stack of rocks or limbs. Most of the time when a new line develops spontaneously, it develops for a reason and it's an improvement. Sometimes it's a result of straight lining. I understand that even if I don't like it.

    The trails that are featureless and wide are almost always that way because of hikers. For some reason hikers really, really want to walk side by side instead of in single file.

    ^that's pretty much how I feel about it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Miker J View Post

    If you want to live and ride in an area where there are a lot of other people, riders, and builders you have to deal with a lot of differences. It is what it is, and stomping feet over "rules" not everyone agrees to suggests an individual has control issues.
    also this^
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    Clearing leaves every year is not a black-and-white issue. Last year I started not raking our most heavily used single tracks and found traffic was more than enough to keep the line burned in and the trail reverted back to its original narrow state. As the leaves get chewed up they are a constant source of regenerated material that originally covered the trail and they hide some features that mountain bikers passively choose lines around. If traffic is low then some Leaf clearing is necessary to keep the trail easy to find, but at this point in my neck of the woods over-cleaning is much more an issue then not raking at all. No set rules every situation is different in terms of raking and leaf blowing versus not.
    Yes, I'm sure it depends a lot on soil type. When I rode the leaf covered trail, at first I was tense as I knew there were lots of rocks and roots hiding under there but then I just relaxed and went into ride over everything mode.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HacksawReynolds View Post
    If you are bored with a trail, go find another. And stay on the trail.
    Humm.....I reviewed my comment and can't seem to find where I describe riding off the trail as either something I do, or something I recommend.
    Consciousness, that annoying time between bike rides.

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    Quote Originally Posted by smithcreek View Post
    I'm sorry, but what exactly is that rider in the picture doing that has you so upset? Riding a little right of center so he can pop off the root?
    it's clearly illegal to have more fun on a given trail than said trail allows...


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    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I'll bet more harm has been done by the removal of all naturally occurring soil regenerating organic material than the alternate routes. Only pu$$ies need leaf blown trails!
    Don't get me started😉

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lopaka View Post
    Humm.....I reviewed my comment and can't seem to find where I describe riding off the trail as either something I do, or something I recommend.
    Go read it again. Right from the top.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lopaka View Post
    Humm.....I reviewed my comment and can't seem to find where I describe riding off the trail as either something I do, or something I recommend.
    Hacksaw doesn't believe trails with multiple lines, even when built that way with the full permission and cooperation of all stakeholders, are legitimate. Therefore riding any multiple line trail means you are actually riding off trail.


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    Quote Originally Posted by IPunchMyselfintheDICK View Post
    Hacksaw doesn't believe trails with multiple lines, even when built that way with the full permission and cooperation of all stakeholders, are legitimate. Therefore riding any multiple line trail means you are actually riding off trail.


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    Quote Originally Posted by .WestCoastHucker. View Post
    .....it's clearly illegal to have more fun on a given trail than said trail allows...
    Quote Originally Posted by Miker J View Post
    ....If you want to live and ride in an area where there are a lot of other people, riders, and builders you have to deal with a lot of differences. It is what it is, and stomping feet over "rules" not everyone agrees to suggests an individual has control issues.
    All of the rideable trails in my locale are multi-use trails. There is two track maintained by clubs, single track that's privately owned, some city sanctioned but not maintained hiking/biking and mostly land trust or conservation areas that allow non-motorized uses.

    Who has the ultimate power to decide how these diverse groups use these precious outdoor recreation areas? Should it be the dog walkers, the mountain bikers or the crusty old man whose family donated the land a hundred years ago?

    And who gets to decide how much fun you're allowed to have? The father with the chubby kid who finally wanted to go outside? The old lady who is taking her first walk of spring? Or the three year old who has seen her first squirrel squabble?

    It is not up to me how you choose to have fun, and if walking to the left of the stump in the middle of trail that I prefer to ride to the right of makes it a pleasant walk for you I say go for it!

    Any time I see something that makes me shake my head, I just remind myself that somewhere in our closed eco-system, a million other truly egregious insults to Mother Nature are happening while I ride, so I just try to have as much fun as one slowly dying organism can absorb.

    And that's all I have to say about that....
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  87. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by HacksawReynolds View Post
    Well look what it's created.
    Miles and miles of super awesome fun to ride trails?

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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    I do occasionally if it's something new getting started but I need to ask the ranger I know or our SORBA leader if I can do that as it is a NPS park and they are pretty strict on who, when and how maintenance can be done. Which is why I'm shocked at the post above yours.

    Besides the fact that I don't like that happening, I worry that hikers won't like it either and will complain about mountain bikers damaging the trails.
    If you were referring to my post about the rogue hiker, you can bet if it was a mountain biker doing that level of damage somebody would have been arrested and/or fined and banned from the forest. Being that it was a local Sierra Club member, I think FAR more latitude was given than was warranted. From what I heard, when asked to stop, he called up the local FS and went into a profanity laced tirade at them. I still saw his work continuing for a good year after that.

    Guess who stepped up to fix as much of the damage and drainage problems he created? Yep, it was the local MTB club. And we heard he was PISSED that we undid a lot of his shoddy work.

    But it doesn't surprise me one bit. Other user groups hikers, dog walkers, equestrians, trail runners get away with building rogue trails all the time, and nobody says $h1t about it. Mountain bikers are just assumed to be dirt back miscreants who are guilty by default. We often get blamed for the rogue trails built by other user groups, as soon as the first tire track appears on them.
    No dig no whine

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    Quote Originally Posted by twd953 View Post
    Other user groups hikers, dog walkers, equestrians, trail runners get away with building rogue trails all the time, and nobody says $h1t about it. Mountain bikers are just assumed to be dirt back miscreants who are guilty by default. We often get blamed for the rogue trails built by other user groups, as soon as the first tire track appears on them.
    You know why that is? Because those other user groups aren't trying to lobby for more more MORE trails thru "proper" channels using their advocacy powers by highlighting ROGUE activity and why it's so bad to try to make themselves look so responsible, legit, and PC.

    Rogue trail activity in the MTB world was hardly much of a thing before MTB advocacy became such a big thing. The NEMBA chapter where I grew up riding is dealing with stuff now with the town that was never an issue and now 30 years in, trails are al of a sudden getting closed down. The chapter never used to use the word "rogue". Now it's mentioned quite frequently. And now the town is cracking down.

  90. #90
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    Line Choice and Trail Impact-1192206d1523379652-line-choice-trail-impact-sope_widened_trail.jpg
    Looks like a lot of trail erosion to me? The 'original trail' is now where water runoff finds it's way down the trail and assuming so...this will only get worse over the years without drainage being addressed.
    Assuming the above is true, I'm not surprised there is a high line and I can understand why that high line would get more use - it now looks like natural trail flow... a nice high sweeping line around the bend in the trail. Strava line, b-line, pu$$y line... whatever you want to call it, it exists now and trail builders should do something about it.

    In cases like this, why not simply build a re-route of nice singletrack, close off the original trail and let nature consume it once again? If appropriate to fill in the old trail a little, natural growth will occur and prevent erosion any further.

    DaveVt while IMO having a valid point, it's kind of a silly photo to represent the concern. I mean, there's a fallen tree on one side forming a natural boundary, and another tree on the other side...however, I see the beauty in a narrow singletrack heading right through the same area and the look/feel would be much different.

    More importantly DaveVt - thank you for the hours you spend on trails: getting approval, marking, building, improving, watching, digging, riding. Keep fighting the fight

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    Quote Originally Posted by wrjr View Post
    Looks like a lot of trail erosion to me? The 'original trail' is now where water runoff finds it's way down the trail and assuming so...this will only get worse over the years without drainage being addressed.
    Assuming the above is true, I'm not surprised there is a high line and I can understand why that high line would get more use - it now looks like natural trail flow... a nice high sweeping line around the bend in the trail. Strava line, b-line, pu$$y line... whatever you want to call it, it exists now and trail builders should do something about it.

    In cases like this, why not simply build a re-route of nice singletrack, close off the original trail and let nature consume it once again? If appropriate to fill in the old trail a little, natural growth will occur and prevent erosion any further.

    DaveVt while IMO having a valid point, it's kind of a silly photo to represent the concern. I mean, there's a fallen tree on one side forming a natural boundary, and another tree on the other side...however, I see the beauty in a narrow singletrack heading right through the same area and the look/feel would be much different.

    More importantly DaveVt - thank you for the hours you spend on trails: getting approval, marking, building, improving, watching, digging, riding. Keep fighting the fight
    Yes, the original trail is a fall line with an erosion issue. My understanding is that it will be rerouted but since it is in a NPS Park, the reroute has to go through all kinds of paperwork before being approved, a long process. I don't think they will just adapt the new line on the bank as that would not work so well for hikers. This is an old hiking trail with bikes being allowed only about six years ago.
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    There's a 2-3 year old single track trail at my local riding area that has a good example of this. There's a very rideable 8" high rock that spanned the width of the 2 foot wide trail, but people have apparently been riding and walking around it enough that the trail has been expanded by about a foot on the side of it. I'm not sure there's any way to prevent this sort of thing, but it is annoying.

    I ride a lot in a state park that is very popular for hiking. I can echo that all the trails that people love to hike on (which are usually long and straight) get turned into wide superhighways because hikers constantly walk 2-3 abreast. The trails that are less popular with hikers tend to stay more narrow.

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    ...because I climb a completely different line than when I descend. But...

    Was inspired to revive this after recently trying some new lines...

    On trails I ride there are numerous "alt-lines", mtb-added features that have been amended to the original trail. These are lines that typically bank upslope perpendicular to the trail proper, then cut back in, often creating a banked corner or short section of alt line. Some are challenging. Most are fun. I feel so stoked when I can hit the hectic ones! But I feel guilty taking them because trail abuse will ultimately widen/deteriorate the trail. I feel like I fail the marshmallow test
    But did I mention how stoked I get when I can hit the hectic ones!

    So is it abuse. But now that the new lines are established, does that make it any better?
    Or maybe they were always intentional, original Mid Penn-sanctioned features (riiight)...

    At the end of the day I'm gonna erode the trail somewhere, so is it worse to spread the traction/erosion over more area, or confine it to the original line?

    Some one, anyone, tell me to keep hitting it, please!

    Also, back to more the OP slant- I am totally guilty of taking easy go-arounds for a LOT of those reverse drops. And I frequently by-pass severe chunk might otherwise be climbed over.
    Weak? Maybe, but working on it.
    Sorry? Not so much.
    Sue me.
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  94. #94
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    I am resisting the urge to move this thread to the Trail Building and Advocation section of this site.... I don't see how it fits as a riding story or riding passion. Really seems like advocacy.

    Can someone change my mind and convince me why it belongs in this section of MTBR?
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  95. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    I am resisting the urge to move this thread to the Trail Building and Advocation section of this site.... I don't see how it fits as a riding story or riding passion. Really seems like advocacy.

    Can someone change my mind and convince me why it belongs in this section of MTBR?
    you are right on this...
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  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    Can someone change my mind and convince me why it belongs in this section of MTBR?
    I don't think I can...

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    The important thing to remember is that, what ever generation you are, its the last good one, with hard workers that build trails and never vary from the line. After you and your generation the world's just gone to crap, no work ethic anymore, at least not like "your" generation did.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    Only pu$$ies need leaf blown trails!
    I leaf blow my 4 miles of single track(once or twice a year), but I'm the only person riding them. Crunching through 40yrs of leaf and pine straw is not fun to me, but it make good resistance training.

  99. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by karthur View Post
    I leaf blow my 4 miles of single track(once or twice a year), but I'm the only person riding them. Crunching through 40yrs of leaf and pine straw is not fun to me, but it make good resistance training.
    We do ours once or twice a year too. They completely disappear in many places otherwise.
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    Here is something of an ethical dilemma. There is a tree gate on one of my local trails that is almost exactly 760mm wide and the line between the trees is perpendicular to a relatively narrow trail (the two trees are at the edges) bound by trees and scrub. The trees are terribly scarred at bar height.

    Since the advent of wide bars, a detour is developing around this gate. The ground is scrubbed, but to use it, one must brave the brush to the right of the detour, which still hangs over/into the trail and it is small tree branches, not shrubs, so they are a bit more than face slappers, rather face and body pokers and rakers and sufficiently stiff to still hang a bar end in.

    On the one hand, the tree gate is pretty dangerous for wide bars, although one can make it through probably on 780s, 800s are a tall order at speed. On the other hand, the detour is not doing much damage. On still another hand, walking a tree gate is kind of absurd.

    For the life of me, I never can remember around which bend this gate lies, so I am constantly surprised by it and do the absurd and walk it, or go glacially slow so my turns don't endo me. I tell myself it's like trackstand practice.

    I am an older, inexperienced, chickensquat rider that often takes B, C, or D lines on some obstacles. However, I won't go off the ridden trail as a general proposition, both out of "ecology" concerns and it's a great way to catch a thorn or other puncture.

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