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  1. #101
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    Bike shop sent me the invoice. Insurance company are ignoring me until I show it so I sent it:


    TREK SHOW DEMO REMEDY 9 2 TRE51273084 $4,729.99 $2,799.99

    It actually cost more than that as I just bought a Fuel 8 at the time when I noticed the Remedy go online. I returned the Fuel at a loss because it was over 14 days.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by lynchnaut View Post
    Bike shop sent me the invoice. Insurance company are ignoring me until I show it so I sent it:


    TREK SHOW DEMO REMEDY 9 2 TRE51273084 $4,729.99 $2,799.99

    It actually cost more than that as I just bought a Fuel 8 at the time when I noticed the Remedy go online. I returned the Fuel at a loss because it was over 14 days.
    Just clarifying, your Remedy listed for about $4.7k and you paid about $2.7k?

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  3. #103
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    yes, but it was a rare find. The bike was used for a magazine shoot so i was told.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by lynchnaut View Post
    yes, but it was a rare find. The bike was used for a magazine shoot so i was told.
    When i have been in this situation before it helped to have an attorney deal with the insurance folks, as they all know each other and the hassling with “proof of ownership” “low-balling to counter inflated estimates” or “we’re not paying” is minimized.

    You can still contact an attorney and explain it and see what they say, or just treat as any negotiation. The first thing they are likely to ask you is whether you went to emergency room or have seen an MD. If you have ANY whiplash or pain issues, you need to bring it up with the insurance.

    You want your vehicle completely restored and running, your bike replaced to your satisfaction, and all medical expenses paid. Don’t give up unless you get to a point where difference is small small that it is no longer worth hassling.


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  5. #105
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    As was mentioned about the 70 posts ago....attorney. Having a lawyer manage the process isn’t always necessary, but in the cases where is it, it usually really necessary. From the beginning, the OP’s situation was moving in that direction.

  6. #106
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    Looks like I need an attorney. Their initial offer for my bike is $1400 because of "what was paid for the bike and the depreciated value. Normally it is 10% for each year, but as a company we have the cut off of 5 years".

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by lynchnaut View Post
    Looks like I need an attorney. Their initial offer for my bike is $1400 because of "what was paid for the bike and the depreciated value. Normally it is 10% for each year, but as a company we have the cut off of 5 years".
    What did you give them?
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  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    What did you give them?
    what did I give who? You mean what did I pay for the bike? About $2800

    An online attorney said this:

    "Generally, Oregon law indicates that the property should be repaired or there should be payment for the fair market value, whichever is less. Fair market value is generally determined by looking at comparable pieces of property. With the at-fault insurance company, you can attempt to show them documentation of why your valuation is more consistent with the market at that may persuade them. If there isn’t an agreement on the valuation, the next step would be litigating the difference in valuation. I could provide more detail on this during a phone call. What I can say is that property valuation following a collision is seemingly one of the most frustrating aspects of the claims process."


    There is no kelly blue book for bikes so how does one determine depreciated value?

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by lynchnaut View Post

    There is no kelly blue book for bikes so how does one determine depreciated value?
    bicyclebluebook.com

  10. #110
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    This is why its best to first get a lawyer, and let them handle it from the beginning. Us non-lawyers can make costly errors.

    Good luck! Hope it all works out.
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  11. #111
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    I don't think i made any errors. I did not accept their offer and told them I will have my attorney contact them.

    Blue book results for my bike: https://www.bicyclebluebook.com/Sear...priceMax=20000

    I didn't want to sell my bike. Now i'm being force to at their price. I will never be able to have that quality for $1400

    This completely cancels out the great deal I got in the first place.

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by lynchnaut View Post
    I don't think i made any errors. I did not accept their offer and told them I will have my attorney contact them.

    Blue book results for my bike: https://www.bicyclebluebook.com/Sear...priceMax=20000

    I didn't want to sell my bike. Now i'm being force to at their price. I will never be able to have that quality for $1400

    This completely cancels out the great deal I got in the first place.
    You don't have to accept the insurance company's lame payout. You can sue the driver either in your local municipal court or in small claims court.

  13. #113
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    Tough call.

    Are you going to spend $1000 on a lawyer when all said and done, bringing your expense on a replacement bike the $1400 you'll receive from insurance plus the lawyer fees to a similar cost of a replacement?

    Just something to consider...

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    What did you give them?
    He gave them his purchase receipt, so they k ow how much he paid.

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  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by lynchnaut View Post
    Looks like I need an attorney. Their initial offer for my bike is $1400 because of "what was paid for the bike and the depreciated value. Normally it is 10% for each year, but as a company we have the cut off of 5 years".
    Did you discuss entire claim with attorney, including your medical issues, or just bike?

    If you were selling this bike (no accident) you wouldn't disclose to a buyer what you paid, unless it was to your advantage.

    I clicked your bluebook link but can't make sense of it. Bluebook is a re-seller's vehicle, so at very least you can explain it is a low-ball and your valuation is $XXXX.

    To get an attorney motivated for the entire claim, you probably need to get into your medical issues.

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  16. #116
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    There is no official blue book for bikes. This was founded in 2011 by a group of bicycle enthusiasts who shared a common interest in the secondary bicycle market.

    I didn't accept the offer but also brought up the possibility of a diminished value of my 4runner due to the accident and asked how they handled that.

    If we decide to accept your diminished value case, we will cover all the costs of bringing you claim. Part of these costs will be hiring a Diminished Value Expert to ascertain exactly how much value your vehicle has lost. Remember, we do not get paid unless we win. You do not pay us a dime to recover the diminished value of your vehicle unless and until we win.
    They can also be responsible for my court costs and attorney fees.

    It shouldn't matter what I paid for it. What if it was a gift or I was helping someone who needed fast cash for a family emergency and I only paid $1000.

  17. #117
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    Don't think you should have shown them what you paid for the bike.... It's going to be a losing battle probably.

  18. #118
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    They were insisting on it. What if it was a gift? Does that mean they base their calculations on free minus depreciation? The thing is I can't buy another like it for what they are offering.

    I was at the right place at almost the right time when it became available. I can't afford a Porsche or other exotic car so this was my mid-life crisis mountain bike. I couldn't afford $4700 but it was like a miracle that it appeared.

    This accident is taking it away from me. They don't care and they don't understand. Perhaps some here understand. I am completely obsessed with mountain bikes and have been for many years.

    That bike became an extension of my body. It bothers me and saddens me that I can no longer ride it. Both rims are bent, the rear is actually broken completely and the frame.....it almost folded in half.

    The bike shop said they would not trust anything that's on it...not salvageable It was a dream come true at the time and suddenly it's not. I'll shut up now as I realize i'm venting and pouting.

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forest Rider View Post
    Tough call.

    Are you going to spend $1000 on a lawyer when all said and done, bringing your expense on a replacement bike the $1400 you'll receive from insurance plus the lawyer fees to a similar cost of a replacement?

    Just something to consider...
    Small Claims Court / Conciliation Court doesn't involve lawyers. It costs a nominal fee to file and that fee is recoverable if you win. If the OP doesn't want to hire a lawyer, his only option other than small claims court is to just bend over and let the insurance company have their way with him.

  20. #120
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    You should have said "piss-off", see MSRP" regarding the bike. Given they are quick to apply their own depreciation rate, they could have applied it to MSRP and done.

    Is the valuation expert for the entire claim? And what is their fee? Sadly, in this cruel world of negotiating, you need some whiplash.



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  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by cjsb View Post
    Sadly, in this cruel world of negotiating, you need some whiplash.
    My neck is hurting just reading this!

  22. #122
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    I'm always amazed by these sorts of posts. Nobody finds out they have cancer and consults the forum on how to proceed. Yet it takes as much training to become a lawyer as it does a physician, but people constantly think these are things they can handle themselves.

    When I got hit by a truck, I consulted a personal injury attorney immediately after calling the other side's insurance company over and over and they wouldn't call me back. All I wanted was my bike replaced at replacement value (I hadn't yet realized the full extent of my injuries yet). They refused to call me back, so I consulted with an attorney. Within 2 weeks, I took my bike in for an estimate, paid the bike shop about $50 for writing me that estimate, and the insurance company paid me 100% of what was quoted, which was approximately the new price of the bicycle. My attorney also did not take any fee at all on the property damage recovery and took only a portion of my personal injury settlement as a legal fee.

    They are jerking you around because you don't have an attorney and they're hoping you'll sign your right to a fair settlement away for nothing. They are not on your side.

  23. #123
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    The hard part of this thread is how most comments revolved on OP being made better than he was before.

    Yes it sucks but this is how it is in all cases. Nobody ever (as far as I know) damages a used product and is granted brand new equipment.

    I don't agree with the offer made, but in my opinion, it's not far off. I don't think $2500 insurance payoff for a 6 year old bike is reasonable.

    To add insult, the forum has been really good about recommending a new $4000 bike that you should be entitled to.

    I feel bad for you. You have this, plus dealing with your other personal life challenges. At the end of the day, it's just a bike. Understandably it is your escape, but still, with as bad as something could be, it's still just a bike.

    I'm riding a 2016 carbon bike that I paid $1000 less than retail. Because the retail price tag is 'so expensive', I would not expect even $2500 today (what I paid) for a new bike. Or worse, I wouldn't expect $4000+ to get the new 2019 model to replace the 4 year old bike.

    Like mentioned above, I guess you can forfeit the insurance claim and sue the other driver and hope a judge has the same sentimental passion as you and gifts you a new bike.
    Push for a better payout but I would't expect too much extra to come from it.

  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forest Rider View Post
    Nobody ever (as far as I know) damages a used product and is granted brand new equipment.
    Kinda lost any credibility here... That happens every day. I could go on listing people I know who have had that happen with bikes specifically for quite a while and then after a bit longer I'd think of a few more.

    The point isn't the exact dollar value of what was damaged, the point is what would it cost to get him back to where he was before. Is a bike you bought new and maintained meticulously (at least your definition of meticulous) worth the same to you as an identical bike that you have no clue about how it was maintained or even abused? Of course not. He had a reliable bike, he should not have to dip into the lower ends of the used market and risk ending up with an unreliable bike just because on paper the value is the same. That doesn't mean he should necessarily get a $4k bike brand new either, but that's a lot closer to fair in my book than $1,400 which we all know will get him a pile.

    He is out a bike because the other idiot (I think the scenario shows they were at least in that moment) did something that could have killed someone. It's not the end of the world, but he shouldn't be left worse off because of it... And yet he absolutely will regardless because of all the headaches associated with dealing with this BS. Given that, your appeal for pity for the insurance company falls flat.

  25. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by lynchnaut View Post
    I don't think i made any errors. I did not accept their offer and told them I will have my attorney contact them.

    Blue book results for my bike: https://www.bicyclebluebook.com/Sear...priceMax=20000

    I didn't want to sell my bike. Now i'm being force to at their price. I will never be able to have that quality for $1400

    This completely cancels out the great deal I got in the first place.
    You can if you find your bike used. Then guess what, you would be in the exact same place you were the nano-second before your were hit. You will be riding a 5-6 year old bike. You can also find a frame and transfer over all the other parts.

    Nothing cancels out your original good deal. Had you not gotten a good deal you would only perceive yourself to be out more money, that is all

    Read your insurance policy. Did it specifically include "full replacement value"? If not, the insurance company is fully justified to take depreciation and you will lose in court.

    Unless there are larger issues with the vehicle or health issues, hiring an attorney over the bike is a money loser.

  26. #126
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    That Remedy would have lasted a long time. Now since that lady crashed into me, I will no longer be able to ride a higher end dual suspension bike. I'll have to buy a hard tail for what they offer. Here is their reason:

    The amount to fix the bike is more than the bike is actually worth per the items sent in. so when looking into what you paid for the bike and the diminished value with the max of 50% per Safeco I can issue the 1400$ If you do choose to get an attorney please have them send over a letter of representation.

  27. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDwayyo View Post
    Kinda lost any credibility here... That happens every day. I could go on listing people I know who have had that happen with bikes specifically for quite a while and then after a bit longer I'd think of a few more.

    The point isn't the exact dollar value of what was damaged, the point is what would it cost to get him back to where he was before. Is a bike you bought new and maintained meticulously (at least your definition of meticulous) worth the same to you as an identical bike that you have no clue about how it was maintained or even abused? Of course not. He had a reliable bike, he should not have to dip into the lower ends of the used market and risk ending up with an unreliable bike just because on paper the value is the same. That doesn't mean he should necessarily get a $4k bike brand new either, but that's a lot closer to fair in my book than $1,400 which we all know will get him a pile.

    He is out a bike because the other idiot (I think the scenario shows they were at least in that moment) did something that could have killed someone. It's not the end of the world, but he shouldn't be left worse off because of it... And yet he absolutely will regardless because of all the headaches associated with dealing with this BS. Given that, your appeal for pity for the insurance company falls flat.
    You have no idea how the damaged bike was maintained. Yes, he is entitled to be made whole with the assumption it was not his fault. The insurance company is only required to go as far as the purchased policy requires. Any difference would need to come from the party at fault.

    Sure, many people do get a "new" replacement if that is what the policy they bought stipulates and that does happen all the time. I doubt a court would require the party at fault to buy "new" as that would be considered betterment.

  28. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCheesehead View Post

    Read your insurance policy. Did it specifically include "full replacement value"? If not, the insurance company is fully justified to take depreciation and you will lose in court.
    Isn't it just this simple? If the insurance policy says you get Actual Cash Value then you're going to get replacement value less depreciation.

  29. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCheesehead View Post
    You can if you find your bike used. Then guess what, you would be in the exact same place you were the nano-second before your were hit. You will be riding a 5-6 year old bike. You can also find a frame and transfer over all the other parts.

    Nothing cancels out your original good deal. Had you not gotten a good deal you would only perceive yourself to be out more money, that is all

    Read your insurance policy. Did it specifically include "full replacement value"? If not, the insurance company is fully justified to take depreciation and you will lose in court.

    Unless there are larger issues with the vehicle or health issues, hiring an attorney over the bike is a money loser.

    It's not just that I will no longer own a great dual sus bike but my car will be worth less now that it's been in an accident. There are attorneys that specialize in this type of recovery but my car may not worth enough to render a high depreciation value difference due to the accident.

    There are very little usable parts on the bike. It's really bad.

    Safeco ranked 23rd out of 24 insurers. Lots of complaints

  30. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCheesehead View Post
    You have no idea how the damaged bike was maintained.
    Correct, but he knows EXACTLY how it was maintained. Are there any used bikes out there that he can say that about? Does that not have a tangible value? It absolutely does. That was my point, apparently you missed it.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCheesehead View Post
    Yes, he is entitled to be made whole with the assumption it was not his fault. The insurance company is only required to go as far as the purchased policy requires. Any difference would need to come from the party at fault.

    Sure, many people do get a "new" replacement if that is what the policy they bought stipulates and that does happen all the time. I doubt a court would require the party at fault to buy "new" as that would be considered betterment.
    You're also missing the point here - he is talking to the party at fault's insurance company, not his. The policy he purchased is irrelevant.

    Not to be rude, but you need to pay closer attention before you come in telling people what's what.

  31. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by twodownzero View Post
    Nobody finds out they have cancer and consults the forum on how to proceed.
    You've apparently never been on medical forums... They're literally FULL of people dealing with cancer treatments and looking for input on how to proceed, or just encouraging words. I see nothing unusual about a cyclist wanting input on this from other cyclists.

  32. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by lynchnaut View Post
    It's not just that I will no longer own a great dual sus bike but my car will be worth less now that it's been in an accident. There are attorneys that specialize in this type of recovery but my car may not worth enough to render a high depreciation value difference due to the accident.

    There are very little usable parts on the bike. It's really bad.

    Safeco ranked 23rd out of 24 insurers. Lots of complaints
    If you hire an attorney that does not charge "fees" unless they win, does not mean you will not get a bill from the attorney. Any costs they incur will typically be charged: filing fees, expert witnesses, photo copies, faxes (not that may use those any more) and on and on.

    Sorry you lost your bike. Good deals do come around. Of the 5 bikes I have owned in the last 12 years, 3 of them were deals similarly as good as the one you had. Just keep your eyes open.

  33. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDwayyo View Post
    Correct, but he knows EXACTLY how it was maintained. Are there any used bikes out there that he can say that about? Does that not have a tangible value? It absolutely does. That was my point, apparently you missed it.


    You're also missing the point here - he is talking to the party at fault's insurance company, not his. The policy he purchased is irrelevant.

    Not to be rude, but you need to pay closer attention before you come in telling people what's what.
    No, I did not miss your point. What he knows about the condition of his bike is irrelevant because it is not worth bringing in an expert to prove it might be in better condition than average. His knowledge has little to no value.

    Why is the OP talking to the other driver's insurance? He should should only be talking to his insurance. Let them deal with the other insurance company.

    No worries about being rude, the internet is full of jackwagons.

  34. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCheesehead View Post
    If you hire an attorney that does not charge "fees" unless they win, does not mean you will not get a bill from the attorney. Any costs they incur will typically be charged: filing fees, expert witnesses, photo copies, faxes (not that may use those any more) and on and on.

    Sorry you lost your bike. Good deals do come around. Of the 5 bikes I have owned in the last 12 years, 3 of them were deals similarly as good as the one you had. Just keep your eyes open.

    I think those fees can be charged to the losing insurance company.

  35. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by lynchnaut View Post
    I think those fees can be charged to the losing insurance company.
    Actually, either sides costs could (could, not will) get charged to the losing party. 1.) don't be the losing party and 2.) hope the losing party has the funds (or insurance coverage) to pay the judgement in the event you win.

  36. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCheesehead View Post
    No, I did not miss your point. What he knows about the condition of his bike is irrelevant because it is not worth bringing in an expert to prove it might be in better condition than average. His knowledge has little to no value.

    Why is the OP talking to the other driver's insurance? He should should only be talking to his insurance. Let them deal with the other insurance company.
    My insurance company (costco based) told me to call them because they needed my statement to make a liability determination.

  37. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by lynchnaut View Post
    My insurance company (costco based) told me to call them because they needed my statement to make a liability determination.
    It sounds like they sucked you into going far beyond a statement. Monday morning quarterbacking is moot at this point.

  38. #138
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    Well, they accepted full liability after my statement.

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    As you already pointed out, you should thank your lucky stars that you weren't hurt and no longer able to take care of your mom. everything else is very secondary as far as I'm concerned.

    I am sorry your dream bike was trashed not of your own doing. However, your car will be fixed at their expense, and you are getting a fair value for your 5 year old bike. Surely you can salvage some items from it to help lessen the loss (i.e., brakes, shifter, DR, etc).

    P.S. You don't have to accept their offer on the bike (but I would). They are comp'ing you for the value of the loss and based on the link you provided, I think their offer is pretty close to the value. Again, sorry for all the hassle your going through.

    P.S.S. I can't believe how much damage they caused by hitting you from a standstill (stop sign). What, did they launch off of where they stopped at full throttle? How the F did they not see you coming? shakes head
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  40. #140
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    It gets worse now. They have determined my car totaled. My car and bike are totaled.

  41. #141
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    Are they repairing your vehicle? I had someone rear end a vehicle I just bought and they wanted to fix it. There was quite a bit of damage and I still had to pay over the next few years. I kept telling the other insurance company that I didn't want the vehicle anymore because I was loosing so much in value. They continued repairing it and I continued asking for loss of value compensation. They repaired it and finally sent me a separate check for $4000 for loss of value on the vehicle.

    It may be an avenue to pursue. Accept their offer for the bike then claim loss of value on the vehicle. Just a thought. Good luck with it all.

  42. #142
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    They want me to pay them $11,675 if i keep the car

  43. #143
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    As others have said, you need to get a lawyer involved.

  44. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCheesehead View Post

    Read your insurance policy. Did it specifically include "full replacement value"? If not, the insurance company is fully justified to take depreciation and you will lose in court.
    I must have missed something here. What does the OP's insurance company have to do with it? The liability for all the damages falls to the guy who hit him. He's the one that's responsible for making the OP whole again, to whatever extent the law requires. He may elect to pass payment of that liability off to his insurance company, but he's the one that's liable. If his insurance company doesn't step up, it falls to him.

  45. #145
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    My insurance company said

    We would only discuss liability with the other carrier.

  46. #146
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    That sucks about the total of the vehicle. I'm sorry to hear that.

    Life throws us interesting challenges. This one is a tough one but you sound strong and in control of hurdles.

    Good luck and keep us posted.

  47. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forest Rider View Post
    That sucks about the total of the vehicle. I'm sorry to hear that.

    Life throws us interesting challenges. This one is a tough one but you sound strong and in control of hurdles.

    Good luck and keep us posted.
    I sound strong? On top of all this, I have all the symptoms of pneumonia. I have not been sick in 20 years. After the accident I got sick.

  48. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by lynchnaut View Post
    I sound strong? On top of all this, I have all the symptoms of pneumonia. I have not been sick in 20 years. After the accident I got sick.
    One can only take so much. I know what its like to be a full time caregiver, and have to deal with your own stuff on top of that.

    Hang in there man, sometimes it can only get better.
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  49. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shark View Post
    Don't think you should have shown them what you paid for the bike.... It's going to be a losing battle probably.
    This. I kept telling the OP to just give them the model and specs and link to the trek website. What he paid was none of their business. It was a huge mistake to give them an actual receipt.
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  50. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCheesehead View Post
    You have no idea how the damaged bike was maintained. Yes, he is entitled to be made whole with the assumption it was not his fault. The insurance company is only required to go as far as the purchased policy requires. Any difference would need to come from the party at fault.

    Sure, many people do get a "new" replacement if that is what the policy they bought stipulates and that does happen all the time. I doubt a court would require the party at fault to buy "new" as that would be considered betterment.
    That isn't taken into account at all. It's either ACV or RC. The current market for the bike determines the ACV. The RC world be the MSRP.

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  51. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    This. I kept telling the OP to just give them the model and specs and link to the trek website. What he paid was none of their business. It was a huge mistake to give them an actual receipt.
    Absolutely.

  52. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by tfinator View Post
    That isn't taken into account at all. It's either ACV or RC. The current market for the bike determines the ACV. The RC world be the MSRP.

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    So find another one like his for sale for $1400. Good luck!

  53. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by twodownzero View Post
    So find another one like his for sale for $1400. Good luck!
    What do you mean?

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  54. #154
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    That's the quote from Bicycle BlueBook. Which is a weak source for this kind of transaction.
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  55. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcd46 View Post
    That's the quote from Bicycle BlueBook. Which is a weak source for this kind of transaction.
    BBB sells bikes too, usually at least 10-20% over what they say they are worth. They screw over anyone that has an insurance claim.

    I just spent about 5 min on there, they have two Trek Staches for 100-150 over what they say the highest value should be.
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  56. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcd46 View Post
    That's the quote from Bicycle BlueBook. Which is a weak source for this kind of transaction.
    Bicycle Blue Book is not accurate at all. Not one bit. I have routinely sold older bikes of mine that were valued around 150 dollars on bbb, and got close to 500 for one and 300 for the other. If a bike is well maintained and operationally perfect all you have to do is wait for the right buyer.
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  57. #157
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    The law, which is what the insurance settlement tries to replicate, only provides for the value of the bike on the day of the accident, before it was damaged. It does not provide "replacement cost."

    Valuation of a used bike is a difficult business. Their 10% depreciation formula, stopping at five years/50% is not outrageous. But you kind of screwed yourself by showing them the bargain price you paid.

    You may be able to fix your error by showing MSRP and having them apply their depreciation formula to that, bolstered maybe by a statement from the bike shop that this was a super-bargain and the fair value when you bought it was more like MSRP than what you paid.

    A lawyer can't much improve on that scenario. But his or her presence in the case may raise the stakes for the claims reps such that they don't quibble over another $1000. The lawyer will also cost a significant chunk of what you get back on the bike value.

    Sometimes you can manipulate the system a bit to come out "whole," usually by seeking medical treatment and reimbursement. But it's actually harder to do that in court than it is in the insurance system. Some may have manipulated things by preying on the inability to precisely value a used bike. But you have tainted that process against yourself by providing the receipt for a bargain purchase.

  58. #158
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    I noticed that it appeared like they stopped communicating when I couldn't produce the receipt for my bike. I'm sure they know that I know how much I paid for the bike and I could easily get a copy of the invoice from the bike shop. They are not dumb.

    If I told them to just base it off MSRP they will know something is up and may get suspicious with my car.

  59. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by lynchnaut View Post
    I noticed that it appeared like they stopped communicating when I couldn't produce the receipt for my bike. I'm sure they know that I know how much I paid for the bike and I could easily get a copy of the invoice from the bike shop. They are not dumb.
    Well, regardless of what they thought you had in terms of receipt or invoice, they have no basis on which to value the bike without it, or without MSRP or information from the bike shop on the initial or current value of the bike. So, it's not surprising they wouldn't talk to you about the bike value if you didn't have some form of documentation.

    I think the best way to go about this, for future reference, is go to an AD, get them to write up a statement that the MSRP and "new value" of the bike is X, and whatever opinion they can give that the depreciation formula is accurate or not. That is, while the new value is X, .5X is not a fair value because they are routinely sold in their shop in the same condition for .7X.

  60. #160
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    The estimate wasn't enough for them. The shop's estimate stated it was totaled and the closest replacement being a slash 8.

    All initial offerings are going to be low-ball. I watched some youtube videos and they say hold out for better and there will be a better offer.

  61. #161
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    Two weeks and this hasn’t been hashed out yet?
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  62. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by lynchnaut View Post
    The estimate wasn't enough for them. The shop's estimate stated it was totaled and the closest replacement being a slash 8.

    All initial offerings are going to be low-ball. I watched some youtube videos and they say hold out for better and there will be a better offer.
    "MSRP -$200, Can't find receipt" is how you should have started. Water under bridge now.

    I have moved a number of times and actually lost (probably thrown out by accident) purchase sticker receipts for $20k cars we still drove.

    Just because you can't find a piece of paper does not mean price or value = zero.
    As others have posted, I have also had bike claim covered through shop estimate on replacement, and with attorney directing me and negotiating with insurance.

    The sale price you paid is an outlier, it does not carry on for eternity to all new bike purchases.

    If the bean counting approach is the convention then you should be around $2400-$2800. The shop gave you reasonable estimate at what, $3400?

    Since you screwed yourself, you should insist on $3000, and thank the heavens if you can get $2400-2800.

    If you can't find an attorney for the entire claim, then you are better off trying to negotiate bike value on your own, at least for the learning experience.

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  63. #163
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    By taking some advice from this forum, watching some YouTube videos and doing what you "feel" is right, the discussion has changed from what bike you want to get to you being offered $1400 for you bike and you paying $11,675 to keep your vehicle.

    Your new strategy, based upon a YouTube video, is to "hold out for a better offer." How does this strategy work? What if the insurance company says "since you denied our initial offer, here's our final offer which is $5,000 less."
    The suspension of your bike sucks if it's different than mine. Really. It sucks. Big time.

  64. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    No, the OP is entitled to have is damaged property fixed back to the condition it was in before the accident. With an automobile that is easier to do since there are multiple parts vendors and body shops to fix them and a few different value system to value used cars in the case of a total loss. For bicycles there is nothing like that, so they just replace it. If you own a 2017 specialized enduro pro, they buy you a 2019 enduro pro. If you own a 2010 enduro pro, they buy you a 2019 enduro pro.....

    If your bike rack is a hitch mount Yakima that holds 4 bikes, they buy you a new Yakima 4 bike hitch mount. The age is not relevant. They replace what was damaged.

    Also to the OP, you should have demanded a police report.
    Police are under no obligation to complete an investigation on non injury collisions. Demand away.
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  65. #165
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    Like I said earlier, time and/or money, you'll lose on this due to the carelessness of someone else.
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  66. #166
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    The approach by an insurance company is to pay as little as possible.
    In this case they did just that. Sure the offer could (maybe should) be higher.

    But still OP is not guaranteed a free new bicycle.

    I don't know how much of a 'mistake' it was to provide a receipt.

    OP paid 37% less than MSRP.
    Lets assume for a moment the insurance company would use the MSRP value as their baseline. Without getting into too many symantec's, if you add 37% to the $1400 he was offered, the new payout would be around $1900.

    Do we feel better that if insurance used the same ratio, OP would receive approximately $2000 instead of $1400?

    Regardless of offering a receipt or not, the outcome would not be tremendously different. I know we all want the happy ending for ourselves and for OP. We want the $3500 payout!

    It does suck. Things have changed in the bike market as OP has already experienced with component group. We all know that the same bike for the same money is not available today with equally equipped components. My previous vehicle was $22000 used -if I were entitled to a new truck of equal value I'd be driving a $50000 brand new vehicle in the event of an accident. We all know that we won't be gifted a $50000 vehicle for a 5 year old vehicle we purchased for far less than that. It's the same thing, just bigger numbers.


    Heck, I paid $400 less for a new aluminum hard tail than I paid for a 6 month old carbon full suspension. XT on carbon/NX on aluminum. Decent brakes on carbon, just above entry brakes on aluminum. The two bikes are not comparable but cost was the same 3 years later.

    The only thing (I feel) that would achieve what the thread suggests should happen is if OP sues driver of other vehicle for cost of a new bike and cost of a vehicle. And that too is a gamble.

  67. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grodyman View Post
    Police are under no obligation to complete an investigation on non injury collisions. Demand away.
    Especially if there was no injury and no citations issued, they may very well not make an actual report, although the cops on the scene do file a report that they were there as part of their activity log (varies by jurisdiction). In this state at least, each driver has to file an accident report with the state within 10 days if there was death or injury, or if there was property damage greater than $1000.

    In the end, how the injured part is "made whole" in this setting depends entirely on:
    • what your attorney can negotiate with him or his insurance company
    • what the injured party can negotiate with the insurance company


    It will cost money to hire a lawyer, but suing the driver is the only way in this circumstance that the OP will end up being treated fairly. Whether that attorney costs more than it's worthwhile to pursue will depend on how much he charges. You can get that estimate up front in most cases. In this case, if the OP doesn't get an attorney, he will end up being screwed. That may be the most economical approach, but in many or most cases, attorneys' fees can be recovered as part of the settlement.
    Last edited by Cuyuna; 5 Days Ago at 02:56 PM.

  68. #168
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    I've dealt with insurance so so so much for both not-at-fault crashes, and more often for mechanical failure policy as part of my job (high end mechanic).

    If you're not at fault and the companies have already agreed, you can make whatever wild claim you want. And you should! Ask for NUTS money. Get quotes from the dealer, or an exotic car body shop. Depending on your state, you and you alone get to make the call on who fixes your car. Your local dealership is almost guaranteed to be on their approved list (but you can use whoever you want anyway, its just easier to use someone on the list).

    I was hit in a parking lot and I handled the whole case myself, and got my claim 100% paid in full. Its a hassle, but if you don't go in swinging from the first phone call they'll get you. If you let them even make you a quote, its game over. You have to basically tell them what the settlement is with documented values, amounts, and what depreciation tables you're using, and go high.

    You absolutely can demand to be made whole in a collision. You can demand they go out and find you a used, comparable bike themselves and deliver it to you (they wont, but they'll cut you the check to buy a used comparable one). This is what the lawyers do for you if you don't want to do it yourself.

    Sounds like its too late for the OP, but if anyone else gets hit dont let them railroad you.

  69. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forest Rider View Post
    The approach by an insurance company is to pay as little as possible.
    In this case they did just that. Sure the offer could (maybe should) be higher.

    But still OP is not guaranteed a free new bicycle.

    I don't know how much of a 'mistake' it was to provide a receipt.

    OP paid 37% less than MSRP.
    Lets assume for a moment the insurance company would use the MSRP value as their baseline. Without getting into too many symantec's, if you add 37% to the $1400 he was offered, the new payout would be around $1900.

    Do we feel better that if insurance used the same ratio, OP would receive approximately $2000 instead of $1400?

    Regardless of offering a receipt or not, the outcome would not be tremendously different. I know we all want the happy ending for ourselves and for OP. We want the $3500 payout!

    It does suck. Things have changed in the bike market as OP has already experienced with component group. We all know that the same bike for the same money is not available today with equally equipped components. My previous vehicle was $22000 used -if I were entitled to a new truck of equal value I'd be driving a $50000 brand new vehicle in the event of an accident. We all know that we won't be gifted a $50000 vehicle for a 5 year old vehicle we purchased for far less than that. It's the same thing, just bigger numbers.


    Heck, I paid $400 less for a new aluminum hard tail than I paid for a 6 month old carbon full suspension. XT on carbon/NX on aluminum. Decent brakes on carbon, just above entry brakes on aluminum. The two bikes are not comparable but cost was the same 3 years later.

    The only thing (I feel) that would achieve what the thread suggests should happen is if OP sues driver of other vehicle for cost of a new bike and cost of a vehicle. And that too is a gamble.
    I dont think anyone is suggesting that insurance replace a used car at new msrp value, and that is because there are multiple good resources for used car values. There are no reliable sources for used bike values, so replacement of what was lost is reasonable, just like if a bike rack was damaged the insurance of the guilty party is responsible for replacement, same if there was a very high dollar espresso machine damaged......

    Cars are valued different than other personal items.
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  70. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forest Rider View Post

    I don't know how much of a 'mistake' it was to provide a receipt.

    OP paid 37% less than MSRP.
    Lets assume for a moment the insurance company would use the MSRP value as their baseline. Without getting into too many symantec's, if you add 37% to the $1400 he was offered, the new payout would be around $1900.

    Do we feel better that if insurance used the same ratio, OP would receive approximately $2000 instead of $1400?

    ............... (I feel) .
    You're not even doing the math right. Please stop.

    I kept the "I feel" because all your posts on this topic are based on your feelings, and they mean nothing.

    Insurance policies are legal contracts and op is in a legal negotiation. Feelings of how it should or should not be have no bearing on the discussion.

    Also, Symantec's? Come on dude. I'm no grammar psycho and autocorrect can mess me up but how do you expect people to take you seriously?

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  71. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by tfinator View Post
    What do you mean?

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    What I mean is their claim of value only makes sense if you can buy the asset somewhere for that price. If nobody will sell you one for that, then that isn't market value.

  72. #172
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    OP, posts 167, 168 above have given you the best advice.

    But, you still need to decide whether you want to continue the right or make a counter offer yourself and settle from there.

    I was involved in a work case recently where another company settled litigation and all of us internally were scratching our heads. On face value, settlement made no sense to me, but for the other company who knows?

    All of us are not in the same position to "fight.". But in your case, if feasible, I'd try.

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  73. #173
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    I haven't read the responses yet because I need to leave for a while.

    Estimate for my car for a 25mph crash is $15,700. They want to total it for $19,800

    I'm sure most people know what they paid for their bike and they know I can get a copy of the receipt from the shop. If I continued playing hide the receipt, and insisted on basing on MSRP, it may have affected their offer for my 4runner.

    Pink bike has in their classifieds a 2014 Remedy 9 29 for $2000 with carbon rims or $1300 with stock rims.

  74. #174
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    ^^^ Regardless of the bike, I think you are going to have a hard time replacing the vehicle for $19,800. Granted, I do not know the mileage, condition or options of your vehicle, but similar year vehicles in the Portland area are in the mid $20k range.

  75. #175
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    If your damages are limited to a car and bike, an attorney may not be worth it. You normally have to pay them at least 1/3.

  76. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by lynchnaut View Post
    I haven't read the responses yet because I need to leave for a while.

    Estimate for my car for a 25mph crash is $15,700. They want to total it for $19,800

    I'm sure most people know what they paid for their bike and they know I can get a copy of the receipt from the shop. If I continued playing hide the receipt, and insisted on basing on MSRP, it may have affected their offer for my 4runner.

    Pink bike has in their classifieds a 2014 Remedy 9 29 for $2000 with carbon rims or $1300 with stock rims.
    The value of the replace of you bike has nothing to do with your truck. If you really wanna keep the truck, take the salvage price, get it repaired and keep the excess cash and deal with having a salvaged title. I have done that before, it was pretty dang easy, once it was fixed I just had to send my insurance a signed form stating it was road worthy by the repair shop.
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  77. #177
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    I keep going back to when my wife got rear-ended last summer. Bike was on the hitch rack, but had less than $100 of damage. Just wheel trues and a bent derailleur hanger. With our insurance, a claim for our bikes has to go through homeowner's, anyway. Hitch rack was totaled in the wreck. Our auto insurance paid for a brand new hitch rack (we had an older Kuat NV 1, and we got a brand new Kuat NV 2) which was notably more expensive than the original. But, they weren't going to hunt down a used bike rack. They bought what was available, new, and most comparable. The driver who hit my wife was uninsured, so we dealt with our own insurance company and let them deal with the other driver.

    And that's how every collision I've had has gone. I don't have many, but they were all 100% someone else's fault. I deal with my own insurance company, not the other driver's company. For that matter, every claim I've had to make from a wreck was an uninsured driver who hit me (one of which was also a hit-and-run that the insurance company managed to track down to recover their money, and they refunded me my deductible later). I guess this is where it pays off to pay for better coverage compared to shitty legal minimum coverage.

  78. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by twodownzero View Post
    What I mean is their claim of value only makes sense if you can buy the asset somewhere for that price. If nobody will sell you one for that, then that isn't market value.
    Yeah, that's how ACV works. What's your issue?

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  79. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by tfinator View Post
    You're not even doing the math right. Please stop.

    I kept the "I feel" because all your posts on this topic are based on your feelings, and they mean nothing.

    Insurance policies are legal contracts and op is in a legal negotiation. Feelings of how it should or should not be have no bearing on the discussion.

    Also, Symantec's? Come on dude. I'm no grammar psycho and autocorrect can mess me up but how do you expect people to take you seriously?

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    Thanks for checking my math dude.

    I don't have time right now to go through the thread to find purchase vs retail prices.

    What is the actual percent sale price OP was given? I wonder where my error was.

  80. #180
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    That bicycle blue book has my bike listed in excellent condition at $1644 - $1691

  81. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by lynchnaut View Post
    That bicycle blue book has my bike listed in excellent condition at $1644 - $1691
    Bicycle Blue Book is not a good resource for used bike values. That has already been discussed in this thread.

    I personally have sold 3 Bikes for more than double the BBB Value.
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  82. #182
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    To clarify on valuation. Their formula apparently depreciates a "new" bike by 10% of its value annually, which is not outrageous. The value of the "new" bike may be MSRP or it may be a heavily discounted price. It is probably not the price paid in a unique, one-off situation. Of course, if no one paid MSRP for a particular bike new, then whatever they typically paid (10-25% off MSRP) would probably be the "new" value of the bike. But that would require some evidence of that fact that neither they nor you have.

    Explain to them that the bike new was worth 4700, you got it for a steal under unusual circumstance, including credit for a returned bike, and that you would accept their depreciation based on MSRP and you would get 2777 (5 years at 10%/yr).

    Don't tell them you can't replace the bike for what they've offered. They don't give a rat's hindquarters about that, that isn't their legal obligation. Their legal obligation is to pay you what it was worth on the day of the accident, before the accident. Yes, they will lowball you, but if you feed them a plausible reason, consistent with their legal obligations, to give you more, they just might.

    And yeah the notion that they're going to adjust one valuation and take it out of the other is just not plausible. They will treat them and analyze them separately. Insurance companies will lowball, yes, but still tethered to some legal provable reality. They don't get to just make it up as they go along, even though valuation of some items, like bikes, seems to be made up.

    Remember, the word "replacement" or "replace" is a very naughty word in these negotiations. An insurance company generally has no legal obligation to "replace" anything. They have to repair or pay the value of the property at the time of the accident. If they get the idea, or you tell them, that you are trying to "replace" something, they will dismiss your claims (at least the money part) out of hand, most likely.

    What you got from your bike shop was useless because they termed it "replacement" by buying a new bike. They should have said irreparable and worth X because . . . and if the price of a Slash 8 figured into that somehow, great, but not as a REPLACEMENT. This, I guess, is where a lawyer would help you, because s/he would know not to say naughty words in negotiation. Other than that, it's not rocket surgery, once you understand the parameters.

    If you get "made whole" in an insurance settlement, you are gaming the system. It's not a typical nor the legally required outcome. You are made whole in the sense that you are as well off., approximately, as you were 10 minutes before the accident. You are not made whole in the sense of a new car and bike.

    The other thing that hurts you here, in addition to price paid being some evidence of "new" value, is that the receipt says demo. So on it's face, it appears that the shop depreciated the thing $2k to start with. Without evidence to explain why, the insurance company is within their legal, evidentiary right to assume that that depreciated demo value is accurate because some bunch of 200 lb maniacs was bombing it down lift runs on half a dozen demo days.

  83. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwiceHorn View Post
    Remember, the word "replacement" or "replace" is a very naughty word in these negotiations. An insurance company generally has no legal obligation to "replace" anything. They have to repair or pay the value of the property at the time of the accident. If they get the idea, or you tell them, that you are trying to "replace" something, they will dismiss your claims (at least the money part) out of hand, most likely.
    I disagree. If the guilty party destroyed my bike rack, his insurance is on the hook to "replace" it by paying out what a replacement bike rack would cost new from a store. So why on earth would I ever let an insurance company dictate to me what the value of a used bike is. If their client destroyed a Specialized Enduro Pro, then then need to replace that Enduro Pro with another Enduro Pro.

    No one is trying to "game" the system, the guilty parties insurance is going to try and pay as little as possible, it is the OP's job to get them to pay as much as possible, and then the 2 will find something in the middle.
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  84. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    I disagree. If the guilty party destroyed my bike rack, his insurance is on the hook to "replace" it by paying out what a replacement bike rack would cost new from a store. So why on earth would I ever let an insurance company dictate to me what the value of a used bike is. If their client destroyed a Specialized Enduro Pro, then then need to replace that Enduro Pro with another Enduro Pro.

    No one is trying to "game" the system, the guilty parties insurance is going to try and pay as little as possible, it is the OP's job to get them to pay as much as possible, and then the 2 will find something in the middle.
    Replacement value is not the standard in any jurisdiction in the US. Certain items that cant be repaired and are cheap may be replaced. For clarity's sake, "replacement value" means the value of today's equivalent product at today's price.

    But if you are fighting with an insurance company over an elusive valuation, you do not want to suggest that your number is a "replacement value." That's just wisdom. If it's a small enough number they may go for it, but if you are pushing the upper limits of valuation, you need to stfu about it being any sort of replacement. That's the wrong standard under the law and the insurance policy and gives the insurance company carte blanche to ignore the number you're now calling replacement value.

    You're dead wrong about the Enduro Pro if you mean replace a 2017 Enduro Pro with a 2020 Enduro Pro. No insurance company could be forced to do that in court. If you mean pay you the value of a 2017 Enduro Pro and thus "replace" it, you are not incorrect.

    I'm not suggesting you "let an insurance company dictate" the value, but if you think they are legally obligated to "replace" anything, as opposed to pay its fair market value on the day of the loss, you are sorely mistaken.

  85. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forest Rider View Post
    Thanks for checking my math dude.

    I don't have time right now to go through the thread to find purchase vs retail prices.

    What is the actual percent sale price OP was given? I wonder where my error was.
    They offered 50% of the original value. You added 37% to the lower value, undervaluing it by hundreds of dollars

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  86. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by tfinator View Post
    They offered 50% of the original value. You added 37% to the lower value, undervaluing it by hundreds of dollars

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  87. #187
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    I don't want to "get over" I just want to be treated fairly and not have any amount come out of my pocket as none of this is my fault.

    I don't know why the bike dealer suggested a new bike but they did say they don't or haven't dealt with an insurance company. I don't know how that can be true but that is what they told me.

  88. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by lynchnaut View Post
    I don't want to "get over" I just want to be treated fairly and not have any amount come out of my pocket as none of this is my fault.

    I don't know why the bike dealer suggested a new bike but they did say they don't or haven't dealt with an insurance company. I don't know how that can be true but that is what they told me.
    Its not an evil mistake, just inexperienced. It's pretty clear from this thread, if it wasn't before, that people don't understand how insurance works, other than to screw people.

    In Post 182, there is a strategy, using the MSRP as shown on the receipt, for going forward and getting better treatment. It may not work, but it's all you've got at this point short of hiring a lawyer. You are going to have to dance pretty fast to explain why it was worth 4700 and not 2700 as shown on the receipt, but it can be done, probably.

    A statement from the bike shop that it was discounted because it was technically "used," but in new condition and worth the listed 4729 would probably be helpful. And if they are willing to state that they gave an extra special deal because you had just returned a new bike at a loss, that would help, but the key fact is that it was worth about 4729 when you got it.

    And, just because you're a good guy, why don't you start with 4500, which gets you 2660 depreciated. Tell them if they'll give you that, you can close out the claim. After not paying out too much, closing the claim is their second priority.

    Just a note, "fair" or "fairly" is an elusive concept, just like the valuation of a five year old bike. It's in the eye of the beholder.

    In most car damage settlements, you come pretty close to not being out of pocket because there's a robust market for used cars and if you get totaled, you'll probably be able to get something comparable for the same money. But that's just a happy coincidence, that's not "how insurance is supposed to work." It's supposed to compensate you for your loss, which is not the same thing as buying you the same car, certainly not a new one.

    That happy coincidence not going to be true, necessarily, for something like a bike that isn't easily valued and a used one cannot easily be replaced with the same or an equivalent item.

    Another alternative, not as "juicy," is to dig up "comps" for 2014 Remedy 9s, like this one. https://www.pinkbike.com/buysell/2154112/ and this one https://www.pinkbike.com/buysell/2471048/

    There are actually about a half dozen on pinkbike. Unfortunately, they are running right around 2K. Or fortunately for you if you want another one.

  89. #189
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    A final note to clear up some confusion. In auto accidents, we're talking about liability coverage that reimburses losses at "ACV" or actual cash value, which in insurance lingo means fair market value immediately prior to loss. In most wrecks, unless uninsured or absent at-fault driver, or your own fault, you are making a claim on the other guy's insurance and that will be strictly ACV reimbursement, only.

    YOU personally can buy insurance for your own property, as in renter's or homeowners, in which you may choose to pay extra to have losses compensated by "replacement value" instead of ACV. I don't believe you can do this for your car though, under your "collision."

    Even on ACV claims, on occasion you will run across an insurance company or an adjuster who, for smaller items of property, will agree to pay replacement cost rather than hassle with attempting to value small property at ACV. A mountain bike is most often not going to qualify as a small item.

  90. #190
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    I forgot to mention the Easton Arc 27 rim laced to DT240s. I have the receipt for the wheel build but not for the hub. The receipt does state: "Thanks, Ken! Please have your DT Swiss hub to us by 2/24"

    Yeah I saw both of those at pink bike. I sent them links to the bikes. That one sold already and the other is a large frame. I need a 17.5.

    They are asking for receipts for everything. I don't have a receipt for the bike rack. I bought it on offer-up used. That bike rack is not available anywhere. They used to sell them at Performance bicycle but that shop closed in Portland and they are no longer available at Amazon.

  91. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwiceHorn View Post
    Replacement value is not the standard in any jurisdiction in the US. Certain items that cant be repaired and are cheap may be replaced. For clarity's sake, "replacement value" means the value of today's equivalent product at today's price.

    But if you are fighting with an insurance company over an elusive valuation, you do not want to suggest that your number is a "replacement value." That's just wisdom. If it's a small enough number they may go for it, but if you are pushing the upper limits of valuation, you need to stfu about it being any sort of replacement. That's the wrong standard under the law and the insurance policy and gives the insurance company carte blanche to ignore the number you're now calling replacement value.

    You're dead wrong about the Enduro Pro if you mean replace a 2017 Enduro Pro with a 2020 Enduro Pro. No insurance company could be forced to do that in court. If you mean pay you the value of a 2017 Enduro Pro and thus "replace" it, you are not incorrect.

    I'm not suggesting you "let an insurance company dictate" the value, but if you think they are legally obligated to "replace" anything, as opposed to pay its fair market value on the day of the loss, you are sorely mistaken.
    I have 2 friends who actually got full market replacement value for their bikes. One was just a few months ago. Their experiences tell me I am not mistaken....... take it or leave it.
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  92. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    I have 2 friends who actually got full market replacement value for their bikes. One was just a few months ago. Their experiences tell me I am not mistaken....... take it or leave it.
    I didn't say they wouldn't. In another post I acknowledged that some insurers might voluntarily pay out claims like that. But it isn't the legal or contractual standard by which they have to abide, which is ACV. If you get lucky with a generous insurer or adjuster, great, good for you, but don't delude other folks that it's going to work out that way for them.

    I'm not arguing for arguments' sake. But a lot of people on this thread demonstrate a misunderstanding of insurance and the law applicable to it and thus have mistaken or inflated expectations about what they're going to get out of an insurance settlement.

    The wild card in all of this is "soft tissue injuries" like whiplash, etc. If you go see a doctor after a wreck and they recommend some meds and PT and you do it and your insurance pays most of it, then you may have a $5000 or so medical claim that they will pay. And this will also trigger a "pain and suffering" award of some fraction of the out-of-pocket medical. You may not get to keep the medical settlement because medical insurance may ask for it (subrogation), but you get to keep that pain and suffering award and that can make up for the fact that ACV valuation isn't going to "make you whole."

  93. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    I have 2 friends who actually got full market replacement value for their bikes. One was just a few months ago. Their experiences tell me I am not mistaken....... take it or leave it.
    But at least he "cleared it up" for everyone with his post. (My experience similar to yours.)

    Not sure if there is any more help for OP. Hope he gets it resolved to something that he can live with. Fetching receipts for third parties to use against you does not bode well, at least to me.



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    I'm thinking the OP is starting to look at this thread as just one more hassle he has to deal with as a result of this accident. Well, at least I know I am anyway.

  95. #195
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    Out of curiosity are those of you getting "full replacement value" getting it out of car wrecks/car insurance or from home/renters insurance? And who are the insurers?

    Also, this may be one of those instances where, if you have collision, it behooves you to claim through your own policy and get a friendly insurer to cover your busted bike, first.

  96. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwiceHorn View Post
    Out of curiosity are those of you getting "full replacement value" getting it out of car wrecks/car insurance or from home/renters insurance
    We haven't had to exercise it often, but we have a rider on our homeowners that provides full replacement for 'extra stuff' in and out of the home (including car accidents, theft, etc.). It covers things like cameras, electronics, firearms, and of course, bikes and their racks. Our particular rider covers $50k. May need to rethink that, now that I think about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by TwiceHorn View Post
    And who are the insurers?
    USAA.

    And before you ask how much it costs... no idea. All I know is when we added it to what we already pay USAA for homeowners, auto, boat, etc., I didn't notice a significant change in annual fees. But then, I don't pay that close attention to accounts payable. Not my department.
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    As others have stated, you need a lawyer.

    From the at-fault driver's perspective, it is common for their insurance to low ball you. Best case scenario for them is you accept their first offer and case closed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cjsb View Post
    But at least he "cleared it up" for everyone with his post. (My experience similar to yours.)

    Not sure if there is any more help for OP. Hope he gets it resolved to something that he can live with. Fetching receipts for third parties to use against you does not bode well, at least to me.
    Yeah, I also hope he is able to get his bike replaced, perhaps showing the going prices for similar year and similarly equipped bikes will get him at least enough to purchase a like for like replacement.

    Quote Originally Posted by TwiceHorn View Post
    Out of curiosity are those of you getting "full replacement value" getting it out of car wrecks/car insurance or from home/renters insurance? And who are the insurers?
    In both cases of my 2 friends they were rear-ended, bikes were on a bike rack and the guilty parties insurance paid for new replacement racks and new replacement bikes. One of them is an MTBR user. I might ask him to chime in with the exact details.

    Quote Originally Posted by bingemtbr View Post
    From the at-fault driver's perspective, it is common for their insurance to low ball you. Best case scenario for them is you accept their first offer and case closed.
    Yep, as the innocent and injured party you have to be your own best advocate (if you do not have comprehensive coverage, then your own insurance goes to bat for you) and negotiate until you feel what they are offering is fair. The entire job of an insurance company is to make money, not to pay it out, so you have to stand up for yourself and make sure you get the settlement you feel is fair to cover your own losses.

    I was once hit on my motorcycle by a lady (it was low speed and minor injuries), the plastics cost more than the bike was worth, so they decided to salvage it, I accepted the first offer because it was really good and more than the bike was worth IMO. I kept the bike(they just took money off the check to cover what it would of cost to actually take it to a salvage yard) and I fixed the plastics and radiator myself and sold it with a salvage title. I actually made enough money off that to purchase a replacement bike (I actually bought the same model, just one year newer and in way better overall condition) and still had cash to spend.

    I also asked the insurance for pain and suffering money and they gave me a bit for that as well.

    It all comes down to negotiation skills and standing up for yourself as the innocent party. Keep reminding them it was their clients negligence that lead to my pain and suffering.

    In fact, maybe that is the OP's line to go down now, accept the money for the bike and push for more money to cover pain and suffering. He certainly is suffering emotional turmoil over the loss of his bike and time not able to ride while the bike is missing. I know my bike is a form of self-medication and stress relief.
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  99. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by fredcook View Post
    We haven't had to exercise it often, but we have a rider on our homeowners that provides full replacement for 'extra stuff' in and out of the home (including car accidents, theft, etc.). It covers things like cameras, electronics, firearms, and of course, bikes and their racks. Our particular rider covers $50k. May need to rethink that, now that I think about it.



    USAA.

    And before you ask how much it costs... no idea. All I know is when we added it to what we already pay USAA for homeowners, auto, boat, etc., I didn't notice a significant change in annual fees. But then, I don't pay that close attention to accounts payable. Not my department.
    Yes, that is an additional wrinkle that can make all this come out better. At some cost.

  100. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    Yeah, I also hope he is able to get his bike replaced, perhaps showing the going prices for similar year and similarly equipped bikes will get him at least enough to purchase a like for like replacement.



    In both cases of my 2 friends they were rear-ended, bikes were on a bike rack and the guilty parties insurance paid for new replacement racks and new replacement bikes. One of them is an MTBR user. I might ask him to chime in with the exact details.



    Yep, as the innocent and injured party you have to be your own best advocate (if you do not have comprehensive coverage, then your own insurance goes to bat for you) and negotiate until you feel what they are offering is fair. The entire job of an insurance company is to make money, not to pay it out, so you have to stand up for yourself and make sure you get the settlement you feel is fair to cover your own losses.

    I was once hit on my motorcycle by a lady (it was low speed and minor injuries), the plastics cost more than the bike was worth, so they decided to salvage it, I accepted the first offer because it was really good and more than the bike was worth IMO. I kept the bike(they just took money off the check to cover what it would of cost to actually take it to a salvage yard) and I fixed the plastics and radiator myself and sold it with a salvage title. I actually made enough money off that to purchase a replacement bike (I actually bought the same model, just one year newer and in way better overall condition) and still had cash to spend.

    I also asked the insurance for pain and suffering money and they gave me a bit for that as well.

    It all comes down to negotiation skills and standing up for yourself as the innocent party. Keep reminding them it was their clients negligence that lead to my pain and suffering.

    In fact, maybe that is the OP's line to go down now, accept the money for the bike and push for more money to cover pain and suffering. He certainly is suffering emotional turmoil over the loss of his bike and time not able to ride while the bike is missing. I know my bike is a form of self-medication and stress relief.
    That last is what I was alluding to. In most places, insurance companies use a fraction (sometimes a multiplier depending on the generosity of local juries) of medical expenses to cover pain and suffering. If no medical, no pain and suffering.

    For any car wreck, if you have some discomfort or an ambulance is called, take it! And then do what your doctor says in terms of PT or medications or further treatment. Your medical bills will be covered by the at-fault driver and your own medical insurance and will form the basis for an additional settlement that may make getting a satisfactory replacement vehicle/bike/bike rack etc. easier.

    Plus, you never know when something is wrong, or may crop up later, and you can't go back for more as a general proposition.

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