I just read "the ellsworth warranty...thread"- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1

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    I just read "the ellsworth warranty...thread"

    And I wanted to add my 2 cents. I really would prefer if this didnt' start another round of ripping on Ellsworth or any other company or person... In fact I'd rather people viewed this post and didn't reply. But whatever.

    When I read posts like these, where at least 5 people I recognize from mtbr (pinkbike, hcor, ridemonkey, and others) piss and moan to no end about a company's problems, I feel sick. I don't get on the forum too often because of this, and primarily limit myself to reading the passion forum, lets talk shocks and occasionally one or two others.

    Here is why I feel sick. It makes a newcomer think there is no hope in cycling. That all mountain bikers are like these guys. But, these are people who would rather complain than ride. These are people who buy all the latest, greatest parts for their niche and then nitpick them to death. They are the people who spend hours on the forums rather than hours pushing themselves to ride better, those who would rather be a loud-mouthed curmudgeon with an unfounded sense of self-worth than a seasoned cyclist who is strong, smart, and flows like you and I wish we could. Guys who would rather park at the trailhead and define which category of riding they fit into best rather than go out and see how good they can be at all types of riding.

    These people are not cyclists. They are not my friends. They are not of any consequence.

    For those still reading, I am about to give some advice. If you are fuming mad about what I had to say about your posts, please stop reading.





    Advice: Get out and ride. Every epic ride is a lifetime of learning. Every 30 minute ride on the way home from work through an paved wasteland is an adventure even if you never set a wheel on dirt (case in point: I learned bunnyhop kickflips, bunnyhop nose bonks, and fakie wallrides last summer just because I spend an extra 15 minutes on the way to work every day. Guess what...I don't need a street bike to do it! I can do it on everyone of my mountain bikes)! You don't need to say you are a freerider or an XC weenie or a roadie convert or a trials rider. You can be all of these. You are still reading...you have hope, you have potential. Get out and prove it to yourself. Get aggro. Get strong. Go where you never have.

    Don't listen to these folks...they will never be what you can.

  2. #2
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    While I agree with much of what you wrote, many of the people here who are spending long hours on the forum instead of riding, do so under the constraint of gainful employment. I do not get on the forums very often except when I have downtime at work. I think alot of other people are the same way. It is not a choice between riding and being on the forum. I have to be at my desk and computer in order to have a job to support my family and the sport that I love. MTBR is a way to give me a fix during the weekdays until I can get out on my bike after work or on the weekends.

    Quote Originally Posted by ManbIKE
    And I wanted to add my 2 cents. I really would prefer if this didnt' start another round of ripping on Ellsworth or any other company or person... In fact I'd rather people viewed this post and didn't reply. But whatever.

    When I read posts like these, where at least 5 people I recognize from mtbr (pinkbike, hcor, ridemonkey, and others) piss and moan to no end about a company's problems, I feel sick. I don't get on the forum too often because of this, and primarily limit myself to reading the passion forum, lets talk shocks and occasionally one or two others.

    Here is why I feel sick. It makes a newcomer think there is no hope in cycling. That all mountain bikers are like these guys. But, these are people who would rather complain than ride. These are people who buy all the latest, greatest parts for their niche and then nitpick them to death. They are the people who spend hours on the forums rather than hours pushing themselves to ride better, those who would rather be a loud-mouthed curmudgeon with an unfounded sense of self-worth than a seasoned cyclist who is strong, smart, and flows like you and I wish we could. Guys who would rather park at the trailhead and define which category of riding they fit into best rather than go out and see how good they can be at all types of riding.

    These people are not cyclists. They are not my friends. They are not of any consequence.

    For those still reading, I am about to give some advice. If you are fuming mad about what I had to say about your posts, please stop reading.





    Advice: Get out and ride. Every epic ride is a lifetime of learning. Every 30 minute ride on the way home from work through an paved wasteland is an adventure even if you never set a wheel on dirt (case in point: I learned bunnyhop kickflips, bunnyhop nose bonks, and fakie wallrides last summer just because I spend an extra 15 minutes on the way to work every day. Guess what...I don't need a street bike to do it! I can do it on everyone of my mountain bikes)! You don't need to say you are a freerider or an XC weenie or a roadie convert or a trials rider. You can be all of these. You are still reading...you have hope, you have potential. Get out and prove it to yourself. Get aggro. Get strong. Go where you never have.

    Don't listen to these folks...they will never be what you can.
    "Son, The world needs ditchdiggers, too"-Ted Knight, Caddyshack

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by ManbIKE
    And I wanted to add my 2 cents. I really would prefer if this didnt' start another round of ripping on Ellsworth or any other company or person... In fact I'd rather people viewed this post and didn't reply. But whatever.

    When I read posts like these, where at least 5 people I recognize from mtbr (pinkbike, hcor, ridemonkey, and others) piss and moan to no end about a company's problems, I feel sick. I don't get on the forum too often because of this, and primarily limit myself to reading the passion forum, lets talk shocks and occasionally one or two others.

    Here is why I feel sick. It makes a newcomer think there is no hope in cycling. That all mountain bikers are like these guys. But, these are people who would rather complain than ride. These are people who buy all the latest, greatest parts for their niche and then nitpick them to death. They are the people who spend hours on the forums rather than hours pushing themselves to ride better, those who would rather be a loud-mouthed curmudgeon with an unfounded sense of self-worth than a seasoned cyclist who is strong, smart, and flows like you and I wish we could. Guys who would rather park at the trailhead and define which category of riding they fit into best rather than go out and see how good they can be at all types of riding.

    These people are not cyclists. They are not my friends. They are not of any consequence.

    For those still reading, I am about to give some advice. If you are fuming mad about what I had to say about your posts, please stop reading.





    Advice: Get out and ride. Every epic ride is a lifetime of learning. Every 30 minute ride on the way home from work through an paved wasteland is an adventure even if you never set a wheel on dirt (case in point: I learned bunnyhop kickflips, bunnyhop nose bonks, and fakie wallrides last summer just because I spend an extra 15 minutes on the way to work every day. Guess what...I don't need a street bike to do it! I can do it on everyone of my mountain bikes)! You don't need to say you are a freerider or an XC weenie or a roadie convert or a trials rider. You can be all of these. You are still reading...you have hope, you have potential. Get out and prove it to yourself. Get aggro. Get strong. Go where you never have.

    Don't listen to these folks...they will never be what you can.
    That is hilarious!

    The old "I don't like that you shared your Ellsworth experiences so you must not ride" idiocy.

    Ah, I LOVE the smell of idiocy in the morning!

    p.s. "I really would prefer if this didnt' start another round of ripping on Ellsworth or any other company or person..." How.........ironic.

  4. #4

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    While I didn't care much about the ellsworth thread I find your post to be the pointless one. What the heck does this have to do with anything? If someone feels the need to complain let them. For the most part I think there were a lot of valid arguments in there. They should be riding instead of complaining? What does that have to do with anything. I doubt most of those people are sitting here 24 hours a day, I'm sure they get to ride enough as well. Heck, or maybe, they're not riding because their bike is broken
    Last edited by Hecubus; 02-12-2004 at 09:57 AM.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete
    That is hilarious!

    The old "I don't like that you shared your Ellsworth experiences so you must not ride" idiocy.

    Ah, I LOVE the smell of idiocy in the morning!

    p.s. "I really would prefer if this didnt' start another round of ripping on Ellsworth or any other company or person..." How.........ironic.
    I think you missed the point. while manbike may have gone on about "get on your bike and ride" a bit much what i think he meant was, alot the threads that get alot of visibility are hotbeads of negativity, ("Ah, I LOVE the smell of idiocy in the morning!") and that repels would be newcomers to the sport. The more there are people riding trails, the healthier our sport. Giving possible newcomers to the sport the wrong idea about the kind of people that are mountain bikers only hurts us.
    All the forums generally are really good and are used as the tool they were meant to be, riders helping other riders in whatever way they can, mechanical, advocacy, experience sharing etc. But i think we all need to make an effort to not let a thread degenerate into finger pointing, name calling and the like. it only hurts us all.

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by GEEI'MGROSS
    I think you missed the point. while manbike may have gone on about "get on your bike and ride" a bit much what i think he meant was, alot the threads that get alot of visibility are hotbeads of negativity, ("Ah, I LOVE the smell of idiocy in the morning!") and that repels would be newcomers to the sport. .
    How can you possibly make this leap?

    What you perceive to be negativity in some threads on a discussion board that at the most has had 2,000 people online at once repels newcoomers to the sport? Apparently you can't understand how incredibly naive your conclusions are.

    Quote Originally Posted by GEEI'MGROSS
    The more there are people riding trails, the healthier our sport.
    And the more crowded the trails are. How do you define the "healthiness of our sport"?

    Quote Originally Posted by GEEI'MGROSS
    Giving possible newcomers to the sport the wrong idea about the kind of people that are mountain bikers only hurts us. .
    ROTFLMAO!

    Quote Originally Posted by GEEI'MGROSS
    All the forums generally are really good and are used as the tool they were meant to be, riders helping other riders in whatever way they can, mechanical, advocacy, experience sharing etc. But i think we all need to make an effort to not let a thread degenerate into finger pointing, name calling and the like. it only hurts us all.
    How does it hurt us all?

    Furthermore, how does a bunch of consumers sharing their experiences with a manufacturer "hurt us all"?

    Heck, you would think that these were "consumer review" forums or something...

  7. #7
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    Maybe they didn't ride because the bike was ... "temporarily unavailable" ?



    Maurice

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManbIKE
    These people are not cyclists. They are not my friends. They are not of any consequence.

    For those still reading, I am about to give some advice. If you are fuming mad about what I had to say about your posts, please stop reading.

    Advice: Get out and ride.
    I didn't have anything to add to the Ellsworth thread, but this post annoys me.

    I've said this before, and I'll say it again here: the whole "shut up and ride" argument is stupid. You don't know anything about these people, how much they ride, how much they WANT to ride when they're stuck at their computers pretending to work, etc. There is obvious irony in the fact that you're taking the time to post something about how those who post don't take the time to ride.

    Also, like Pete said, this is a consumer review site. It was an entirely appropriate thread, more so than the majority here. It was made especially interesting because the owner of the company posted a couple of replies. What a rare opportunity in this industry!

    I know that sometimes accepting information from Pete means reading through his acerbic wit, and often that's as much fun as a prostate exam... but when he's right, the best thing is just to relax and take it. Struggling only makes it more painful.

  9. #9
    DSR
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    Thanks Mr Thought Police... Sorry, this is a mountain bike forum where people discuss mountain biking and mountain bikes. Usually those discussion are very positive (pics of my weekend ride, question about a component selection), but they are sometimes negative (I broke my leg, my bike broke, bike company won't warranty my frame) because unfortunatley not every mountain bike-related experience is 100% happy, smiley and fun. Either way, it's discussing mountain biking and mountain bikes which is the whole point of the forum. Most people on this board are pretty passionate and discussions can sometimes get heated. But those passionites are the ones that I'd like to share my experiences with and gather information from.

    As to the whole Ellsworth warranty discussion, I don't see why some people are so offended. Again, it's discussing a relevant topic within the mountain biking community. In this case, an aggressive warranty policy (from a marketing standpoint) and folks sharing their experiences with that policy. If this isn't the forum for riders, customers, potential buyers, dealers, manufacturers, etc to discuss the topic, then what is?

    By the way, I am posting in the middle of the latest 365 Days of Adrenal Gland race via a satellite link-up brazed on to my bike, so your "ride, don't post" point is moot in my case. Gotta badge in for lap 1,123 so I'm signing off now... S

  10. #10

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    yeah dude

    right on dude. street riding kicks ass. how did you learn nose bonks? are those hard?

    if yuor ever in Chi town we'll shread it up theres a rockin bowl at the Wilson sk8 park its dope as hell smooth transitioons and a sweet skinny island in the midle....yaaaahhhowww

    dont' sweat steve3 and pete and those dudes, they just have their periods and are all running estrogen balls to the wall style. you didnt' even name them and their all flipping their sh*te. its funny as hell.

    guys are all defenisive like "WHAT DO YOU MEAN I DON"T RIDE! ASS!!! JERK!!!! I RIDE ALL THE TIME!!! SEEEEE I HAVE 500 POSTS! I KNOW WHAT I"M T ALKIN!!!"

    people are so dramatic...smoke a blunt or somethin

  11. #11
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    Lol!

    Quote Originally Posted by steve3
    Well, 26street just joined today and has a similar birthday, praising manbike in an utterly pitiful and childish Instant Messenger style. I wonder what IP's would show...
    And with that, any crediblity manbIKE/26street might have had goes up in a puff of pungent smoke...

    Man, he's really impressed with himself!

    Quote Originally Posted by 26street
    how did you learn nose bonks? are those hard?
    I wonder if he would have continued the conversation if you hadn't busted him.

  12. #12
    Who are the brain police?
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    Is that you Mr. Ellsworth?

    Quote Originally Posted by ManbIKE
    And I wanted to add my 2 cents.......they will never be what you can.
    Wow, you posted some bizarre crap. The strange nature of that post makes me think Tony's up to his weird posting again.

    Keep them coming. The laughs make my day that much easier.
    Last edited by Locoman; 02-12-2004 at 11:31 AM.
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  13. #13

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    Found out

    good detective work!

    tony in the hizouse...jk...i'm gone...see if you can figure out who i am next time...the last ones didn't get connected by you guys....

    peace, brush the sand out of your underwear...

  14. #14
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    Grow up.
    Trolls S U C K !

  15. #15
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    do you work for ellsworth?

    i see fish(y) businness...

  16. #16

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    He usually misses the point...

    Quote Originally Posted by GEEI'MGROSS
    I think you missed the point. while manbike may have gone on about "get on your bike and ride" a bit much what i think he meant was, alot the threads that get alot of visibility are hotbeads of negativity, ("Ah, I LOVE the smell of idiocy in the morning!") and that repels would be newcomers to the sport. The more there are people riding trails, the healthier our sport. Giving possible newcomers to the sport the wrong idea about the kind of people that are mountain bikers only hurts us.
    All the forums generally are really good and are used as the tool they were meant to be, riders helping other riders in whatever way they can, mechanical, advocacy, experience sharing etc. But i think we all need to make an effort to not let a thread degenerate into finger pointing, name calling and the like. it only hurts us all.
    because he spends about 99% of his time here and everywhere else looking for things he can rag on. It's a "Pete" thing. Not to be confused with a helpful response. He's the crusader of all things he considers wrong with everyone else, but don't do what he does. It's not acceptable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fred³
    because he spends about 99% of his time here and everywhere else looking for things he can rag on. It's a "Pete" thing. Not to be confused with a helpful response. He's the crusader of all things he considers wrong with everyone else, but don't do what he does. It's not acceptable.
    Ah, it's not only a midget, it's a midget that has delusions of being psychic!

    How can you possibly know how I spend my time frederica? I'm not surprised that you can't fathom the point, just like I'm not surprised that you're getting buddy-buddy with another handle swapping anonymous spaz, giving your history of cowardly posting under multiple handles.

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete
    Furthermore, how does a bunch of consumers sharing their experiences with a manufacturer "hurt us all"?
    I never said that sharing experiences with a manufacturer hurts us all. If you read a little closer the last paragraph with the sentence i put in bold letters, it said finger pointing, name calling and the like hurts us all. As you might be aware mountain biking is not as popular as it was in the mid 90's and mountain bike sales have been flat for the last couple of years. Low sales mean that there are not alot of new riders and a community that does not have new blood will wane (i.e. trail closures, etc.). More new riders doesn't have to mean crowded trails, it can and does mean people making new trails and new life in local trail advocacy in alot of places.
    if you had a choice to be part of a community that was passionate about what they did and did everything they could to keep it going or one that was passionate about what they did and then argue sophmorically about a discussion that started out as a simple and beneficial relay of experience?
    I know that a bunch of other people are going to post a decontruction of my post that misses the point and I will let them have the last word. i am not going to post on this thread after this and be part of the tit for tat.

  19. #19
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    Ummm...

    Quote Originally Posted by GEEI'MGROSS
    I never said that sharing experiences with a manufacturer hurts us all. If you read a little closer the last paragraph with the sentence i put in bold letters, it said finger pointing, name calling and the like hurts us all. As you might be aware mountain biking is not as popular as it was in the mid 90's and mountain bike sales have been flat for the last couple of years. Low sales mean that there are not alot of new riders and a community that does not have new blood will wane (i.e. trail closures, etc.). More new riders doesn't have to mean crowded trails, it can and does mean people making new trails and new life in local trail advocacy in alot of places.
    if you had a choice to be part of a community that was passionate about what they did and did everything they could to keep it going or one that was passionate about what they did and then argue sophmorically about a discussion that started out as a simple and beneficial relay of experience?
    I know that a bunch of other people are going to post a decontruction of my post that misses the point and I will let them have the last word. i am not going to post on this thread after this and be part of the tit for tat.
    At the expense of being called out for "tit for tat" or missing the point of your post, you seem to be lumping a considerable amount of assumptions on top of one another in order to make grander assumption.

    Mountain biking is more popular now than it was in the Mid 90's, not less popular. In fact, according to the Outdoor Industry Association (OIA), 46 million people participated in mountain biking in 2001 and 7.5 million people consider mountain biking their primary sport, making mountain bikers the 2nd largest trail user group behind hikers.

    1983 - Mountain bike ownership: 300,000 bikes
    2000 - Mountain bike ownership: 30,000,000 bikes

    Mountain bike sales are flat, not down. Flat sales indicate a saturated market, not a decline in the market.

    There is absolutely no connection between new riders and new trails. In fact, I suggest that riders that have been riding longer contribute more to new trails than new riders. It takes time (usually several years) for new riders to "get it". It takes them passing work crews. It takes them being brought in to the fold. They don't walk out of a LBS automatically enlightened about trails, trail building and trail maintenance.

    My parting advice: You'll receive more credibility if you know what you're talking about and can back your words up with either facts or experience. I would suggest that trying to argue advocacy with Pete is the equivelent of you bringing a knife to a gun fight. Not intented as a slight, but you'll probably take it that way.

    Ken

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    I lied, i'm posting again

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken in KC
    At the expense of being called out for "tit for tat" or missing the point of your post, you seem to be lumping a considerable amount of assumptions on top of one another in order to make grander assumption.

    Mountain biking is more popular now than it was in the Mid 90's, not less popular. In fact, according to the Outdoor Industry Association (OIA), 46 million people participated in mountain biking in 2001 and 7.5 million people consider mountain biking their primary sport, making mountain bikers the 2nd largest trail user group behind hikers.

    1983 - Mountain bike ownership: 300,000 bikes
    2000 - Mountain bike ownership: 30,000,000 bikes

    Mountain bike sales are flat, not down. Flat sales indicate a saturated market, not a decline in the market.

    There is absolutely no connection between new riders and new trails. In fact, I suggest that riders that have been riding longer contribute more to new trails than new riders. It takes time (usually several years) for new riders to "get it". It takes them passing work crews. It takes them being brought in to the fold. They don't walk out of a LBS automatically enlightened about trails, trail building and trail maintenance.

    My parting advice: You'll receive more credibility if you know what you're talking about and can back your words up with either facts or experience. I would suggest that trying to argue advocacy with Pete is the equivelent of you bringing a knife to a gun fight. Not intented as a slight, but you'll probably take it that way.

    Ken
    Thank you for posting constructive criticism and not an attack. (I'm serious, just in case you were wondering)

    craig

  21. #21
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    arguing with Pete...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken in KC
    I would suggest that trying to argue advocacy with Pete is the equivelent of you bringing a knife to a gun fight. Not intented as a slight, but you'll probably take it that way.

    Ken
    ok, let's see Pete's comments in this thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete
    Ah, I LOVE the smell of idiocy in the morning!
    Quote Originally Posted by Pete
    And the more crowded the trails are. How do you define the "healthiness of our sport"?
    Quote Originally Posted by Pete
    Ah, it's not only a midget, it's a midget that has delusions of being psychic!
    No pun intended, i am sure pete is smart guy and good information source, but these personal insults and smart ass attitude lessen his value... what do you think ken?

    i suppose this post may initiate similar reaction from pete...

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    ok, let's see Pete's comments in this thread:


    Quote Originally Posted by Pete


    ...And the more crowded the trails are. How do you define the "healthiness of our sport"?
    ... these personal insults and smart ass attitude lessen his value... what do you think ken?...
    .
    Tell me how in the world you took this sample as a 'personal insult' or 'smart-ass attitude'?

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by 26street
    right on dude. street riding kicks ass. how did you learn nose bonks? are those hard?

    if yuor ever in Chi town we'll shread it up theres a rockin bowl at the Wilson sk8 park its dope as hell smooth transitioons and a sweet skinny island in the midle....yaaaahhhowww

    dont' sweat steve3 and pete and those dudes, they just have their periods and are all running estrogen balls to the wall style. you didnt' even name them and their all flipping their sh*te. its funny as hell.

    guys are all defenisive like "WHAT DO YOU MEAN I DON"T RIDE! ASS!!! JERK!!!! I RIDE ALL THE TIME!!! SEEEEE I HAVE 500 POSTS! I KNOW WHAT I"M T ALKIN!!!"

    people are so dramatic...smoke a blunt or somethin

    Spicoli is that you? Are you *still* doing time for Mr. Hand?

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    SWEET! I nearly fell out of my chair...

    Quote Originally Posted by DSR
    By the way, I am posting in the middle of the latest 365 Days of Adrenal Gland race via a satellite link-up brazed on to my bike, so your "ride, don't post" point is moot in my case. Gotta badge in for lap 1,123 so I'm signing off now... S
    THAT was funny! Thanks for the levity.

  25. #25
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    so you didnt care about other 2 samples...

    Quote Originally Posted by lidarman
    Tell me how in the world you took this sample as a 'personal insult' or 'smart-ass attitude'?

    ok, take that one away. my bad. although it falls into smart ass category type: i want all trails for myself - at least i understood it that way. i hope i am wrong...

    will you now comment on the other 2 please?

    eh rich, just muddy the water, no?

    like, one kills 2 and rapes 1 and you say: how in the world can you call one ... ah never mind...

  26. #26
    Roy
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManbIKE
    And I wanted to add my 2 cents. I really would prefer if this didnt' start another round of ripping on Ellsworth or any other company or person... In fact I'd rather people viewed this post and didn't reply. But whatever.

    .
    .
    .
    These people are not cyclists. They are not my friends. They are not of any consequence.

    Don't listen to these folks...they will never be what you can.

    Ralph Nader ruined that whole car experience thing didn't he? He sure pissed and moaned alot, eh? I'm sure he's not your friend. I'm sure he's not of any consequence.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo
    ok, take that one away. my bad. although it falls into smart ass category type: i want all trails for myself - at least i understood it that way. i hope i am wrong...

    will you now comment on the other 2 please?

    eh rich, just muddy the water, no?

    like, one kills 2 and rapes 1 and you say: how in the world can you call one ... ah never mind...
    How's this comment on the other two?...Grow some skin!

    I love stiring up the water, it helps separate the different layers of mud!
    Last edited by lidarman; 02-12-2004 at 08:33 PM.

  28. #28
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    relatively weak...

    Quote Originally Posted by lidarman
    How's this comment on the other two?...Grow some skin!

    I love stiring up the water, it's helps separate the different layers of mud!
    and beyond the point. i like steering the crap myself. and there is nothing one can say that can insult me... just empty words, who cares...

    but when one is arguing something and trying to prove the point and contribute positively, one should not resort to personal insults like Pete did few times. that is just my opinion, of course...

    YMMV

  29. #29
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    ah, finally...

    Quote Originally Posted by steve3
    I find it funny that everyone forgot about manbike/26street and is attacking one another.

    I, for one, am entertained by Pete's excellent advice, as well as his witty comments. I don't see anything wrong with what Pete was saying here. Things were said, he refuted and backed up his words, something many of us don't do.

    Back to the topic- why are we arguing with each other when a forgotten spammer started this whole thing?
    something constructive from you ;-P

    did you fix your bike?

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    me manbike?

    Quote Originally Posted by steve3
    Oh, thank you, osokolo. I was thinking you were another iteration of manbike for a while. No, the bike isn't fixed, but significant progress has been made. I'll keep everyone posted on the situation.

    Did you break your Truth yet, obviously because you either crashed into a tree or because you improperly setup the shock? I'm sure you're riding on a cracked frame and don't even know it.

    When you break it, I'll ask you how much it cost you to get Tony to honor the warranty.
    ah, you are just being paranoid... relax, Saddam has been captured, dont you know?

    no, i didnt break my Truth yet, probably becasue i didnt ride it yet. the temperatures here in toronto are kinda low, but when they go up to -5 celsius, then there is just too much snow to ride on...

    i use my winter road bike to stay in shape... but hey, how many people can brag about the fact that have had their Truth for almost 2 months and it still didnt break? eh?

    i surely can...

    and when i finally break it, i'll just buy another one... if it wasnt for us, idiotic and foolish ellsworth owners to poop on, it'd be boring around here... dont you think?

    just kidding of course, have to have this disclaimer included before Pete comes in and posts another witty comment...

    ps. if that is going to make you feel better, you can call me manBIKE...

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve3
    Oh, thank you, osokolo. I was thinking you were another iteration of manbike for a while. No, the bike isn't fixed, but significant progress has been made. I'll keep everyone posted on the situation.

    Did you break your Truth yet, obviously because you either crashed into a tree or because you improperly setup the shock? I'm sure you're riding on a cracked frame and don't even know it.

    When you break it, I'll ask you how much it cost you to get Tony to honor the warranty.

    Holy Crap!, this thread has a life of its own, hey steve3, what happened to posting constructive info. about Ellsworth so all the readers could be informed?

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete
    Ah, it's not only a midget, it's a midget that has delusions of being psychic!

    How can you possibly know how I spend my time frederica? I'm not surprised that you can't fathom the point, just like I'm not surprised that you're getting buddy-buddy with another handle swapping anonymous spaz, giving your history of cowardly posting under multiple handles.

    If thats not arrogant and insulting, then what is?

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    i'm just gonna make a pointless reply to a pointless thread. add 1 more to my post count.

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    Quote Originally Posted by steve3
    I agree this thread is stupid and pointless. Hopefully, no one will add to it after me.
    you only think you are gonna get the last word in.

  35. #35
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    last word about what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phat_Head
    you only think you are gonna get the last word in.
    i guess we are only human afterall.

  36. #36
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    stop reviving the thread

  37. #37
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    you stop first!!!

    **********

  38. #38
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    Just in case you missed the Ellsworth Warranty discussions

    The long and short about the Ellsworth Warranty

    The Short—
    THE WARRANTY.
    Resolving accusations our warranty not being honored is about making the facts available to everyone. The warranty, is available on our website: (http://www.ellsworthbikes.com/help/2...20WarrCard.pdf) Anyone interested in the facts can read it for themselves, instead of reading only hearsay and rumors. The execution of the warranty has been directly in line with what is written.

    THE ADVERTISING.
    As to the allegations of false advertising claims that the warranty is something other then has been practiced, etc.? I’ve added an “ad archive” of every ad we’ve placed in North American media, since ‘99/’00 (http://www.ellsworthbikes.com/ellsworthianway/index.cfm) You can check it out for your self rather then take everything you read in a MTBR discussion board for fact without checking it out on your own.

    The Long—the rest of the story:
    CUSTOMER SERVICE.

    First, I appreciate customers taking time to relate their positive experiences in the discussion board. Sony did a study in the 80’s every customer service manager knows like scripture. It goes something like this:

    For every satisfied customer, 1 out of 10 will tell of their satisfaction 1 time. On the other hand, 10 out of 10 dissatisfied customers will tell no less then 10 people of their dissatisfaction…10 times!

    As for allegations or accusations of bad customer service. I have three things to say:

    First, no one is perfect, though we’re constantly striving at Ellsworth, no one there has given up taking care of our customers and dealers.

    Second, If there are 10 dissatisfied customers on MTBR (count the negative posts usernames, it’s not that diverse) they are telling 10 times the same dissatisfaction. Your hearing it 10 times amplified. On the other hand, the 10 satisfied Ellsworth owners represent hundreds of satisfied customers.

    Third, You need to know that there’s more to the story that you’re not going to hear from the dissatisfied guy claiming he was treated poorly. Here’s a couple special ones—ask yourself which parts of the story you actually read about on the discussion boards:

    Example #1. What you read in posts: Kid with Joker, warranted seven times. What you don’t hear: Come to find out his friends were taking turns dropping it off the garage roof to the driveway busting it—why not their own bikes? Because “Ellsworth has a lifetime warranty” was the answer. “Our bikes don’t.”

    Example #2. What you don’t hear: Guy drops bike on rock while lifting it over fence when it’s pretty new. Dents downtube—sends us a picture, we say, we’d watch it, but wouldn’t recommend buying a replacement right away, though it undoubtedly is a stress riser, he may ride it for years without any problems, and he could always buy a replacement at some time in the future if it became necessary. He actually posts on MTBR that he rides the heck out of it, and even despite the big dent he put in it, it’s holding up great for multiple seasons. Original dent eventually does generates stress cracks. He wants it warranted for free. He’s mad because he has to pay for replacement parts—What you read on discussion board is a rant on MTBR—flaming company for weak bikes and bad customer service.

    Example #3. Guy buys bike used, sight unseen, (MTBR, Ebay…buyer beware) bike breaks. He’s second owner—no applicable warranty. Shock that it came with isn’t a Truth part number, too short, worn out. He is offered to buy replacement parts and shock at a deep discount. He’s mad because he didn’t get shock (wear component) and frame (not original owner) for free. Flames us for not honoring warranty on a used bike and a wear component.

    Example #4. Here’s a super reasonable case I just handled myself as it isn’t very common and I didn’t want any misunderstandings about what was to be done: Three year old front triangle failure. Not current version or technology of the Truth—no like parts in stock to warranty with. Despite the fact that our destructive testing and accumulated research shows a better then 90% correlation with under inflated shock, or hydraulic lock due to lockout left on, or worn out air shock, heavier riders and large frames. User set up is considered the owner/operator responsibility—as stated in warranty and owners manual and FAQ on website. In spite of this, we are willing to warranty the front triangle with a brand new one to the original owner no charge, once with an explanation letter about shock set up and use. However, shock lengths and rockers have changed (longer shock for lower shock shaft velocity and lower leverage ratio rockers to ease the demand on the shocks—specifically benefits heavier riders ride quality and increases durability). Owner is offered to replace his three year old and likely worn out shock for dealer cost, and purchase the new rocker assembly for a deep discount off what it would be at retail (necessary to accommodate the newer shock, if something like this had happened within the first year, we’d have provided the rocker at no charge). Cost to upgrade entire frame after three years of regular use to a brand new 2004 Truth…approximately $500. Or you could look at it as a $1,500 credit toward a brand new frame (“current technology” warrantee language).

    Let’s take this last example and look at it, because here in lies a few of the frustrations with the current warranty that I am aware of. I am aware of three of these situations where I was unable to come to a meeting of the mind with the owner. Never the less, I did what was disclosed clearly in the warranty. I don’t know how to remedy the hard feelings, as what was done above is exactly what the warranty states would be done.

    This is where that whole bad rap about customer service and not honoring warranty on MTBR came from in the first place I think. This doesn't happen like this very often. But when it does, most of the time, folks are ecstatic about $500 for a brand new frame. Occasionally, someone is indignant about the $500--didn't read the warranty, or maybe doesn't understand products must evolve and change to become better over the years, like software, cars, ovens, motorcycles, shoes, and yes...bikes. And they continue to rant and complain on MTBR so that you'd think the whole world has broken Ellsworth's...and Ellsworth blows them off when it happens. These rants are half-truth’s of a vocal few. As to the idea that I change products to avoid warranty that’s ridiculous.

    You can categorize the number of times product evolutions have happened and recognize these MTBR rants if you know what incompatibilities have happened in the last decade. The allegation that I change products so I don’t have to warranty, or can make money by selling current parts at a deep discount them is untrue. Only a very small percentage of the bikes we ship world wide ever have problems, why would I spend the 18 months of R&D and the cost of retooling JUST to skirt coughing up a few free frames to warranty in the course of the year? The concept propagated by several discussion board mavens is preposterously confused and lacks any mathematical, numeric, or financial reason whatsoever.

    Here is an actual list of the product changes that involve some degree of incompatibility, only one is complete incompatibility, and we offered upgrade programs to help. Check it out.

    1996 Truth’s changed from 80mm of travel to 100mm of travel. Front triangle and shock changed so that if you had a front triangle warranty on a bike before 1997, you had to buy a new shock at dealer cost to make the frame go again. For new shock at dealer cost, you got more travel, Easton tubes, lighter stiffer stronger frame, and brand new shock.

    2000 Truth’s changed completely for the first time in almost 8 years. We maintained warranty replacements until about 2002—then parts just ran out. At that time we offered a half price upgrade to the new Instant Center Tracking, cartridge-bearing Truth to any Ellsworth owner to keep them on current and warrantee-able parts. We took a lot of heat from dealers on that, who expressed their concerns that these folks upgrading should’ve been back to the dealer to buy the new bikes, as the old one’s were likely worn out and should be replaced at the dealer. We continued to offer the half price upgrade well through
    2002. And dropped it to about a 35% discount the next year. By then the bikes being upgraded were well over three years old and not current technology, though there are still many of these old Truth’s out there that are loved and work great, and I still maintain inventory of service parts (bushing pivot kits available on website).

    2004 Truth’s started shipping in mid 2003 utilizing the longer shocks and lower leverage ratio rockers. (better ride quality, especially for heavier riders, increased durability due to lower leverage ratio).

    2002 Id’s got a new disk specific seat stay. 2001 (first year) had canti stays. Both worked great, but the disk specific stay was in high demand. We offered the opportunity for owners to upgrade at about 40% discount. Again took heat from dealers, AND took heat from owners who asserted that it was better then the old stay (which worked fine) and therefore the old stay was defective and we should give them the new stay for free—that the upgrade charge was greedy! Most people were glad to have the opportunity to upgrade the bike to disks and more tire clearance for a couple of hundred bucks. This had no affect on how Id’s were or are warranted. What you read on MTBR is the old stay was defective (not true) and we were charging to replace defective stay. The fact was the upgrade was optional—not mandatory, and the canti-boss stay worked as designed and intended on the original bike. Upgrade offer was optional.

    2003 Joker gets major upgrade after four years of production. Longer Travel, stiffer, stronger, etc.. Original owner gets upgraded on any part that fails, but would have to potentially buy a shock for it to get the full benefit of the new design.

    That’s it. I think in each case the upgrade path is more then valuable for the associated cost, IF ANY that might be applicable. The above is the ENTIRE story of how warranty is handled if parts have evolved. No more complicated then that. Again, if you read something that deviates much from the above—ask yourself what part of the story your not reading on the discussion board.

    In the last four years, we have made more alterations, or improvements to the Truth then we did in the first 6 years of production. Mostly because we sell more, and the companies resources for R&D have made it possible to break new ground with the suspension technology, which is why when you get your new '04 Ellsworth, your just going to LAUGH at the mass media frenzy stuff…concerning the “newest” suspension system. And ask yourself “what’s the possibility the “latest, greatest, newest” design will still be here in it’s current form in 5-10 years like the Instant Center Tracking four bar link has been.”

    Is there a problem understanding the warranty? I’m not sure. I’ll ramble on a bit more about it, and please take a look at the warranty on our websites FAQ section, or at the direct links above and below and email me what you think at [email protected] .

    I do think the current warranty is more complex to administrate then other warrantees, I think this stems mostly from my desire to stand behind the craftsmanship of the frame for the lifetime of the frame. Unfortunately, this gets complicated—I admit. Here's why the current warranty is potentially complicated, and may well be flawed if it’s so commonly misunderstood:

    First, let's say a guy is using the frame pretty hard. Which is OK, but his use is going to fatigue the material faster then another's use that might be more on the XC end of things. “A Truth is NOT a free ride frame.” You can see by definition alone, prescribed, or designed use is very difficult to define--what is XC? What is Freeride?...etc. No human can define it the same twice and agree with another human. Thus, I've determined that in this respect, my "lifetime" warranty is flawed and probably impossible to administrate without pissing people off at some point.

    Second, it is impractical if not impossible to spend time and oh so little precious financial resources to manufacture and inventory parts for every Truth I've made in the last 10 years. If I never changed or improved on them, no one would want them. If I change or improve it, sometimes there is incompatibility. In MY mind (again, not everyone would agree, though many have) the opportunity to ride the heck out of a truth for three years and get a BRAND new one for a deep discount is a GREAT deal. Again, think of another industry... Drive the heck out of an off road truck, and get a new one for half price! What a deal! But again, not everyone agrees with me. However, many owners have taken advantage of this to keep fresh equipment--that causes troubles with Dealers who want to sell new stuff at full price when a person has worn out the old frame (lifetime doesn’t mean it can’t be worn out). And you can WEAR OUT a Truth...although almost everything on it can be maintained, if there are parts available. It is the lifetime of the frame...and though the warranty specifically states that if the replacement part isn't available (or that frames lifetime is over) a "credit towards current product will be issued", folks get mad that we did EXACTLY what the warranty says we would do...!? In this respect also, the perception of my warranty causes problems and misunderstandings.

    Change the warranty? Help us decide. The warranty is for you—I want to give the owners and prospective owners what they want.

    If the warranty changed to a strait two years, then if we exceed expectations, folks will be happy. As it is now, due primarily to the two issues above, we risk falling short of someone's expectations on what is a generous and liberal warranty in this industry (read the collection of industry warranties in FAQ section of www.ellsworthbikes.com see links). Pretty much ALL or ANY manufacturing defect, or material defect shows up within the first year. After that, it's probably fatigue, or misuse, or something. And for the few rare times it's clearly a defect of some kind--even if it's outside 2 years--won't the guy be happy that we stepped up and honored it anyway out of warranty?!

    I know in my heart, and have verified with destructive testing and by FEAing others designs up and applying the same dynamic loading to my designs and theirs that Ellsworth bikes are more durable for the prescribed use then any in the industry by as much as double. AND they are all lighter then the same prescribed use bikes of other brands...that’s something we’re proud of and it is proof of some sweet and expensive engineering, design and materials. But nothing lasts forever, and while I'm perfectly willing to do a lifetime of the product warranty—will owners read warranty so they don’t just end up pissed off when the situation arrives that they've gotta buy replacement parts to keep it good? Please help us decide: [email protected]

    Just like my wonderful Dodge Diesel Truck. 90,000 miles of wonderful service, and I need new shocks for the second time, new springs, a bed liner...a door seal, a dome light switch--stuff needs maintenance. It's a scientific fact called atrophy, right? Bike frames are not exempt from this. Any way, when a man thinks about it like this, it's all good. But too often, as this discussion board seems to attest to folks have had false expectations concerning the warranty. And it does makes me sad, because I care, and my staff cares, and we do our level best to take care of our customers.

    Currently, the discussion boards are not an efficient way to collect honest and insightful opinions. It would be great if they could be, but that’s not what I’m seeing in the discussion boards at this time. So you’ll need to collect your thoughts and email them to [email protected].

    *Download the ads—see there’s no misrepresentation (http://www.ellsworthbikes.com/ellsworthianway/index.cfm);
    *Download the current warranty, let me know if any of it is unclear or if you think the way we’re handing or have handled warrantees is not inline with what we said we’d do (http://www.ellsworthbikes.com/help/2...20WarrCard.pdf);
    *Check out this collection of sample industry warrantees http://www.ellsworthbikes.com/help/S...Warranties.pdf ) how do these compare to the Ellsworth Warranty?
    *Finally, take a look at my potentially “more easily interpreted warranty” (http://www.ellsworthbikes.com/help/2...20WarrCard.pdf). Is this a better, clearer warranty?

    Email me your thoughts: [email protected]

    I value your input, as Ellsworth owners, as potential owners, or even if your not interested in an Ellsworth just as a fellow cyclist. I’m listening to your input and opinions to make owning a bike with my name on it a splendid experience. Even if you’re ranting on the discussion boards, and profess to know me well enough to hate me, I invite you to harness that energy and email me insightful and honest opinions about the material I’ve made available for everyone’s review. Include your contact information; the most useful suggestions or comments may receive a token of my appreciation for participating in providing valuable focus on the potential improvements or upgrades to the Ellsworth Warranty.

    In the end, it's about making people happy, healthy, and able to enjoy the planet in an environmentally healthy way. I'm a firm believer that a man reaps what he sews, and when I'm done on this planet, I will be pleased in the knowledge that I've sewn seeds of making many people healthy and happy, and not obliterated the planet in the process.

    I really appreciate your expressing your views, and your willingness to consider what I've put in print here. I remain available to any suggestions you might have to make the experience better. Thanks in advance for your time and consideration in this matter.

    Sincerely,
    Tony Ellsworth

  39. #39
    Jm.
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    Looks like Ellsworth bikes have NEVER had any kind of flaws of ANY kind..., they must be made out of fairy dust and Tony Ellsworth must be the BEST bike designer of ALL time for that to be true.

    He f*cks over his customers by making them "upgrade", making the "lifetime" warrenty a farce. Read his own words, he reaps tons of proffit doing so...so he knocks a whole 35%percent off the cost! lol.

    The lifetime warrenty that isn't...

    I'm sure glad most other industrys, and the other bike manufacturers, don't use the same ethics...

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    hoooo boy, this is as dull as a ball

    Quote Originally Posted by rroeder
    If thats not arrogant and insulting, then what is?
    a sub-par intellect (malnourished, unfit) finding humor to be intended as insult,

    that's ARROGANCE ...stretching well beyond your capacity.

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    go back to acting, Tony

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Ellsworth
    The long and short about the Ellsworth Warranty * * * Sincerely,
    Tony Ellsworth
    Tony, that's utterly pathetic. You're such a Hollywood person... all talk, no substance. I am embarrassed to have ever done business with your company. I am embarrassed that I ever bought your Isis, which you cheapened to make more profit. You should have left it as Sherwood designed it... oh wait, you got stupid with Sherwood and had to split the Aeon deal.

    Yeah, we believe you all right. Right down to the "model" issue in your warranty. Well-hidden. You sure have crafty lawyers. I wonder if they can help you write a USEFUL warranty.

    Go back to selling overpriced breakable junk with useless "lifetime" warranties, will ya? You make it so easy for us to spot the gullible.

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    Let me get this right...

    Making a paralell between Ellsworth bikes and the automotive industry does not work. Why? Because the automotive companies are not offering a "Lifetime" warranty. However, those companies ARE generally standing behind their products for the duration of their warranty.
    When my 2 year old Jekyll cracked at the st/tt junction, Cannondale shipped ALL of the parts needed to make the bike whole again. (front triangle, new hs bearings, AND a brand new FloatRL. (The stroke of the shock had changed) Free of charge. That is honoring a warranty. I constantly see the same type of cs from Specialized. Why is it that Ellsworth has a hard time with this thought process?(treat the customer right) I know that those companie are way larger, but that is only an excuse. If you are going to claim to have a better product, back it up with a decent warranty policy.
    On the positive side of things, it does sound like Tony is trying to make an effort. (at what, I have no idea.) At least this time you can semi-understand his post. Last time around, he sounded like a raving nut job.

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    hehehehehehe

    This shat is so funny!

  44. #44
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    Hope

    Quote Originally Posted by gonzostrike
    a sub-par intellect (malnourished, unfit) finding humor to be intended as insult,

    that's ARROGANCE ...stretching well beyond your capacity.

    Oh, it was SUPPOSED to be funny and witty, thank you for enlightening me with your superior intellect, isn't that ironic that it was me who was arrogant and didn't even know it.

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