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  1. #1
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    Are full suspension bikes the e-bikes of downhill?

    No shortage of people demonizing e-bikes here because pedal assist is "cheating". Makes it easier to go uphill, turns a mediocre rider into a fast rider, etc.

    Can the same not be said for full suspension bikes? Is bicycle suspension really just "bump assist"? Making it easier to go faster downhill, makes rough trails into smooth trails, turns a mediocre rider in to a fast rider?

    Seems like those "bad ass" riders on full suspension non-motorized bikes might be hypocrites. At the bottom of the trail, are the guys on rigid bikes the ones who "earned it"? Are the full suspension guys "cheating"?



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  2. #2
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    Motor vs human power!
    I got some bad ideas in my head.

  3. #3
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    If we follow this argument all the way, then the only "real" people at the bottom of the hill walked down.

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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by astom22 View Post
    If we follow this argument all the way, then the only "real" people at the bottom of the hill walked down.

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    On their bare feet.


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  5. #5
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    This is not a very logical comparison unless the guys on the full DH rigs are bombing down a multi-use trail, or riding them on trails that expressly prohibit DH rigs.

    eBikes have the potential to go uphill at 3-4 times the speed of an average athlete on a pedal powered bike. This changes the dynamics of multi-use trails. Now other trail users (hikers, walkers, equestrians and pedal powered bikes) have to worry about the closing speeds of eBikes going uphill at speed. Dynamics of the trail ecosystem completely change.

    I grew up riding motorcycles as a teen and the worse accidents happened when 2 motorcycles crashed head on on a blind turn.

    Put an eBike on a directional trail and the problems decrease.
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  6. #6
    _CJ
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    eBikes have the potential to go uphill at 3-4 times the speed of an average athlete on a pedal powered bike. This changes the dynamics of multi-use trails. Now other trail users (hikers, walkers, equestrians and pedal powered bikes) have to worry about the closing speeds of eBikes going uphill at speed. Dynamics of the trail ecosystem completely change.
    Why do downhill riders get carte blance to ride as fast as they like? Maybe if their suspension weren't allowing them to increase thier speeds, other users wouldn't have to be as concerned? Why is the safety of the non-motorized user placed above that of the motorized?

    And really the uphill speed argument is overblown. Just because a bike has the power to travel at a certain speed, it doesn't mean the rider has the ability, or the trail will allow it. My motorcycle can do 60+mph, but not even remotely close to that uphill on a single-track.


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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    And really the uphill speed argument is overblown. Just because a bike has the power to travel at a certain speed, it doesn't mean the rider has the ability, or the trail will allow it. My motorcycle can do 60+mph, but not uphill on a single-track..
    I don't know about it being overblown. I saw a guy pretty much fly up the hill during very windy conditions, I mean guys getting blown off their bike windy. This one guy was just cruising up the fire road. There is no way that was ALL legs.
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    Fantastic false equivalence! (Super original too.)

    Can be refuted with one word; motor. It's not about technology that makes it incrementally easier to ride, it's about what powers the vehicle - on bikes it's the rider, on motorized vehicles it's a motor. That simple.

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    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    Why do downhill riders get carte blance to ride as fast as they like?
    In my area at least, it's because we built, advocated for and continue to maintain downhill trails for specifically that purpose. If the e-bikers want to do the same then more (motorized) power to them.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDwayyo View Post
    In my area at least, it's because we built, advocated for and continue to maintain downhill trails for specifically that purpose. If the e-bikers want to do the same then more (motorized) power to them.
    Motorcycle parks are open to motorcycles.
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  11. #11
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    Ban the next mutt that posts anything "e" related outside of the moped forum please.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottzg View Post
    Motorcycle parks are open to motorcycles.
    Yup and I got no issues with motorcycles. I have no issues with e-bikes either, so long as they're recognized as motorized vehicles and regulated as such. Some day I hope to have one for commuting, they're perfect for that.

  13. #13
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    Why do these ridiculous false equivalents continue to be made?

    How can people seriously continue to convolute motorized versus non-motorized to have it somehow equal having gears or suspension? It truly is (or should be, anyway) as simple as this. It has a motor or it doesn't. Jezus!

    The thought process astounds me
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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    Ban the next mutt that posts anything "e" related outside of the moped forum please.
    You have Klurejr to thank for this. He gave them tacit permission to post anywhere they please as long as it meets some arbitrary threshold of "well thought out".

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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    You have Klurejr to thank for this. He gave them tacit permission to post anywhere they please as long as it meets some arbitrary threshold of "well thought out".

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    This is "well thought out"? Guess we just need to collectively show our collective displeasure through the rep system, that's what it's for isn't it?
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    Tires are just "traction assist" I can't believe you guys need tires are on your bike. Grips are just "hand control assist" jeez ya buncha wimps! Pedals are just "stand assist" devices...grow a pair.

    Common sense ain't too common.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckha62 View Post
    Why do these ridiculous false equivalents continue to be made?

    How can people seriously continue to convolute motorized versus non-motorized to have it somehow equal having gears or suspension? It truly is (or should be, anyway) as simple as this. It has a motor or it doesn't. Jezus!

    The thought process astounds me
    The thought process is as follows; 'I want to ride this e-bike on my local trails, no one should be allowed to stop me.' Then the bullshit arguments start up to try and make this sound less selfish and immature.

    If they would just say it's a fundamental right (which would be laughable) then the conversation would be over, no point in debating someone who admits they believe that, but they won't say it outright. They try to justify with (poor) logic what is essentially a toddler's temper tantrum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaXCarp View Post
    Tires are just "traction assist" I can't believe you guys need tires are on your bike. Grips are just "hand control assist" jeez ya buncha wimps! Pedals are just "stand assist" devices...grow a pair.

    Common sense ain't too common.
    If this logic applies, then where should we draw the line? Dirt bikes are an evolution of the bicycle, why not allow them on the trails?

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    Ban the next mutt that posts anything "e" related outside of the moped forum please.
    eAgree.
    What's wrong with him??

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    This is "well thought out"? Guess we just need to collectively show our collective displeasure through the rep system, that's what it's for isn't it?
    I didn't say if it was or if it wasn't, just pointed out the issue. The corollary of one man's trash is another man's treasure is one man's idiocy is another man's genius. Anytime someone uses subjective, non-fact based criteria it leads to issues.

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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDwayyo View Post
    If this logic applies, then where should we draw the line?
    Here.

    Are full suspension bikes the e-bikes of downhill?-image.jpg
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottzg View Post
    Here.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	image.jpg 
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ID:	1198211
    I'm thinking more Penny Farthing.

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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    I'm thinking more Penny Farthing.

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    You'll have to explain what a "penny farthing" is to most of the motorized crowd.
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottzg View Post
    Here.

    Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	1198211
    Can we work on the head angle a bit? What is that, 90 degrees?

  25. #25
    Nat
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottzg View Post

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Word up to the guy in the background who can do the splits -- in long pants no less.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    No shortage of people demonizing e-bikes here because pedal assist is "cheating". Makes it easier to go uphill, turns a mediocre rider into a fast rider, etc.

    Can the same not be said for full suspension bikes? Is bicycle suspension really just "bump assist"? Making it easier to go faster downhill, makes rough trails into smooth trails, turns a mediocre rider in to a fast rider?

    Seems like those "bad ass" riders on full suspension non-motorized bikes might be hypocrites. At the bottom of the trail, are the guys on rigid bikes the ones who "earned it"? Are the full suspension guys "cheating"?



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  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    Word up to the guy in the background who can do the splits -- in long pants no less.



    It's easier once your man bits have been removed, so I've been told.
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  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    Word up to the guy in the background who can do the splits -- in long pants no less.
    Are those bikes in the background drag racing?

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    It's easier once your man bits have been removed, so I've been told.
    When I was playing first base I could do them lenghtwise like that. But that was in stretchy baseball pants.

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  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDwayyo View Post
    Can we work on the head angle a bit? What is that, 90 degrees?
    Every new model they slack out the head angle a tiny bit. This process has been going on longer than you knew.
    "Things that are complex are not useful, Things that are useful are simple."
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  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottzg View Post
    Every new model they slack out the head angle a tiny bit. This process has been going on longer than you knew.
    🤣🤣🤣

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  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by EABiker View Post
    Are those bikes in the background drag racing?
    Or are they really tiny, like elves, fairies, sprites, and other wee folk?

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    Or are they really tiny, like elves, fairies, sprites, and other wee folk?



    Remember when we could say "midget" without imprisonment?
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  34. #34
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    The premise of this thread is stupid.

  35. #35
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    Are the "people" advocating for "ebike" access really the "hypocrites"?

    Tune in to the next exciting installment of zzzzzzzzzzz........

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    You have Klurejr to thank for this. He gave them tacit permission to post anywhere they please as long as it meets some arbitrary threshold of "well thought out".

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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    This is "well thought out"? Guess we just need to collectively show our collective displeasure through the rep system, that's what it's for isn't it?
    Just make sure the negative rep and comments go to the real source of the problem.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by richde View Post
    Just make sure the negative rep and comments go to the real source of the problem.
    Done.
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  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    Why do downhill riders get carte blance to ride as fast as they like? Maybe if their suspension weren't allowing them to increase thier speeds, other users wouldn't have to be as concerned? Why is the safety of the non-motorized user placed above that of the motorized?

    And really the uphill speed argument is overblown. Just because a bike has the power to travel at a certain speed, it doesn't mean the rider has the ability, or the trail will allow it. My motorcycle can do 60+mph, but not even remotely close to that uphill on a single-track.
    Since when do Downhill Riders get carte blanch to ride as fast as they like? Maybe on a directional trail at a Bike Park, but on a multi-directional and multi-use trail, absolutely not. In fact the guys who do that sort of thing have led to full bicycle bans in some parks (https://www.tetongravity.com/story/g...alifornia-park). That is now a precedent for other Land Mangers to use when deciding who does and who does not get trail access. The main reason for the ban, speed. If you want to bomb a trail on your full DH rig, you better be on a directional trail that allows for that sort of thing. Here in Socal if I want to do that, I need to go to Snow Summit (lift access trails, all one way directional) or SKy Park (pedal access trails, all one way directional). My local trails I ride every week are all multi-use and multi-directional. When I ride there I have to keep other trail users in mind, and because I cannot go uphill at 10-15mph, my uphill closing speed on other users is very slow. That changes when you have an eBike able to ride uphill at 10-15mph, now the closing speed with other traffic increases.

    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    Ban the next mutt that posts anything "e" related outside of the moped forum please.
    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    You have Klurejr to thank for this. He gave them tacit permission to post anywhere they please as long as it meets some arbitrary threshold of "well thought out".
    Perhaps you both need to go read the specific rules for the eBike section. Topics like this specifically belong in General or Trail access, they no longer belong in that section. If you have a problem with that please contact fc, the founder and owner of MTBR, he does not want this sort of discussion happening in that section anymore.
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  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    Since when do Downhill Riders get carte blanch to ride as fast as they like? Maybe on a directional trail at a Bike Park, but on a multi-directional and multi-use trail, absolutely not. In fact the guys who do that sort of thing have led to full bicycle bans in some parks (https://www.tetongravity.com/story/g...alifornia-park).
    Thanks to MTBR for increasing my vocabulary and literary skills. There's been times I had to look up words because I didn't know their meaning. I admit I'm somewhat illiterate.

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  40. #40
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    Last edited by IPunchCholla; 05-15-2018 at 11:39 AM. Reason: Already said
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  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    Perhaps you both need to go read the specific rules for the eBike section. Topics like this specifically belong in General or Trail access, they no longer belong in that section. If you have a problem with that please contact fc, the founder and owner of MTBR, he does not want this sort of discussion happening in that section anymore.
    You love to tell people to read things but perhaps you should read what you posted. When you say that anyone can reply or post anything anywhere due to the new posts feature you actually contribute to and cause threads like this to spring up. This has zero to do with the rules that you are ineffectually pointing to and mostly to do with your bias showing up in the way you handled something that was in the ebike forum. If you don't like constructive criticism I respectfully submit that you either A. do a better job at being an impartial personality or B. resign the position. Thanks for responding.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post





    Perhaps you both need to go read the specific rules for the eBike section. Topics like this specifically belong in General or Trail access, they no longer belong in that section. If you have a problem with that please contact fc, the founder and owner of MTBR, he does not want this sort of discussion happening in that section anymore.





    Is the e-motorbike sub-forum a defacto safe space now?
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  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    Is the e-motorbike sub-forum a defacto safe space now?
    No, it is a place to discuss eBikes and eBike parts for Class 1 eBikes. Any discussion of trail access is to be done here:
    Trail Building and Advocacy - Mtbr.com

    Any discussion outside of that is to be done in General, this thread is right where it should be.

    Any posts discussing how to hack eBikes to make them no longer a class 1 bike should be reported so they can be deleted.


    Tucker - What on earth are you talking about? What do you want to happen here? fc is the owner of the site and what I posted is what he wants. You got a problem with that take it up with him. I am just a volunteer that does what he can to keep the bickering down and the threads on topic.

    Everytime someone posts about wanting to ride a specific Class1 eBike and other users come into the thread and derail it to talk about trail access, it is just not the right place for it. If someone makes a post about how eBikes are the same as "xyz", then it is fair game to discuss and debate, just make sure you back up your points or your argument will get torn apart.
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  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    No, it is a place to discuss eBikes and eBike parts for Class 1 eBikes. Any discussion of trail access is to be done here:
    Trail Building and Advocacy - Mtbr.com

    Any discussion outside of that is to be done in General, this thread is right where it should be.

    Any posts discussing how to hack eBikes to make them no longer a class 1 bike should be reported so they can be deleted.


    Tucker - What on earth are you talking about? What do you want to happen here? fc is the owner of the site and what I posted is what he wants. You got a problem with that take it up with him. I am just a volunteer that does what he can to keep the bickering down and the threads on topic.

    Everytime someone posts about wanting to ride a specific Class1 eBike and other users come into the thread and derail it to talk about trail access, it is just not the right place for it. If someone makes a post about how eBikes are the same as "xyz", then it is fair game to discuss and debate, just make sure you back up your points or your argument will get torn apart.
    Yet just yesterday you were supporting driving them off topic, as long at it fits your agenda. If you can't see how your words are contributing to the new outbreak of threads I don't know what to tell you.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    Yet just yesterday you were supporting driving them off topic, as long at it fits your agenda. If you can't see how your words are contributing to the new outbreak of threads I don't know what to tell you.
    What on earth are you taking about? Those new rules for the eBike section wen into effect back in February. that is when the change happened. If you see something that is breaking those rules, please use the report function to let the mods know. we do not have time to read every single post.
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  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    What on earth are you taking about? Those new rules for the eBike section wen into effect back in February. that is when the change happened. If you see something that is breaking those rules, please use the report function to let the mods know. we do not have time to read every single post.
    Again, the current issue has zero to do with rules. When you make a post like the one below tacitly encouraging counter-arguments that drive a thread off-topic you invite passive-aggressive pushback. Which is what is happening and the rest of us have to deal with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post

    Also, every single time someone comments on a thread in a Sub-Forum it shows up at the top of the "new posts" section. This is a feature that many users on this site use to see what is trending on the site. The most recent 100 forum threads from all sections of the site show up there. To think that you can just make inflammatory posts in the eBike section and not draw the eyes of many who disagree with your posts is ignorant at best, to think that the moderators are going to censor someone who makes a valid well spoken argument against an eBike is willful ignorance.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    My local trails I ride every week are all multi-use and multi-directional. When I ride there I have to keep other trail users in mind.
    Soooo, the presence of a motor renders a person incapable of controlling their speed while traveling uphill and/or keeping other trail users in mind? Funny, I've never experienced that on my motorcycle.


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    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    Soooo, the presence of a motor renders a person incapable of controlling their speed while traveling uphill and/or keeping other trail users in mind? Funny, I've never experienced that on my motorcycle.


    .
    You said that downhillers (simply in the sense of a descending rider, not the specific riding discipline) have carte blanche, he disproved that... It was your argument to begin with, not his. Got that?

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    Two negative reps so far. LOL.

    Clearly you dimwits don't understand the concept of satire.

    05-15-2018 10:33 AM
    LaXCarp
    Thread: Are full suspension bikes the e-bikes of downhill?
    you're a d-bag


    05-15-2018 12:17 PM
    chazpat
    Thread: Are full suspension bikes the e-bikes of downhill?
    troll

  50. #50
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    I fail to see how what I posted there in anyway gives approval for off-topic arguments. Taking a thread off-topic is never allowed.

    I merely acknowledged that if someone makes a new thread that is inflammatory (example: http://forums.mtbr.com/e-bikes/%93-e...4-1077747.html), it shows up on the new posts section, which has eyes on it from all over the site, and it will bring attention from people all over this site. Some of the guys who regularly post in the eBike section seem to think they should be shielded from any opposing arguments and be allowed to post things like that and just have everyone agree with them. They seem to think that by posting in the eBike section only user who browse the eBike section will see it. That is not the case.

    1 - they broke the section rules by posting that in the eBike section.
    2 - before a moderator was able to address it the topic was debated back and forth.
    3 - no good was going to come of it, so I locked it.

    Personally, and this is my own opinion and does not reflect the views of fc or MTBR, I think allowing any discussion of eBikes is a bad move. It is just opening a can of worms. I would prefer there was no eBike section, it would mean less headache trying to put out the fires everyday....
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  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    Two negative reps so far. LOL.

    Clearly you dimwits don't understand the concept of satire.




    You didn't use the satire emoji.
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  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    Soooo, the presence of a motor renders a person incapable of controlling their speed while traveling uphill and/or keeping other trail users in mind? Funny, I've never experienced that on my motorcycle.
    Do you really want to have a discussion about this, or are you just trying to incite anger with the user base here?

    The presence of a motor makes it POSSIBLE for a rider to go 3-4 times faster uphill, thus changing the dynamics of a multi-direction and multi-use trail.

    Will every eBike rider go super fast uphill? No one can answer that for sure, but we can speculate that some will. The faster the closing speed from 2 different directions the higher chance of an accident or someone getting hurt.

    That IS something that Land Managers are concerned about. My local trail system already has a 15mph speed limit posted.
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  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post

    Personally, and this is my own opinion and does not reflect the views of fc or MTBR, I think allowing any discussion of eBikes is a bad move. It is just opening a can of worms. I would prefer there was no eBike section, it would mean less headache trying to put out the fires everyday....




    I propose detente. Confine e-bike discussions to the e-bike sub-forum. In return, the anti's will stay out of the sub-forum that will no longer be spoken of. Swing the ban hammer freely upon violators. Peace shall be restored to the human powered and the e-motors.
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  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    Two negative reps so far. LOL.

    Clearly you dimwits don't understand the concept of satire.
    Apparently you don't understand the concept that satire is usually meant to be humorous.

    If you have a bicycle to ride on non-motorized trails and a motorcycle to ride on motorized trails, why are you so enamored with ebikes?
    Quote Originally Posted by Oh My Sack! View Post
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  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    No shortage of people demonizing e-bikes here because pedal assist is "cheating". Makes it easier to go uphill, turns a mediocre rider into a fast rider, etc.

    Can the same not be said for full suspension bikes? Is bicycle suspension really just "bump assist"? Making it easier to go faster downhill, makes rough trails into smooth trails, turns a mediocre rider in to a fast rider?

    Seems like those "bad ass" riders on full suspension non-motorized bikes might be hypocrites. At the bottom of the trail, are the guys on rigid bikes the ones who "earned it"? Are the full suspension guys "cheating"?



    .
    Not unless the bike has a motor. And kind of a stretch to say the least. My motor runs on coffee and bacon.

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    Do you really want to have a discussion about this, or are you just trying to incite anger with the user base here?

    The presence of a motor makes it POSSIBLE for a rider to go 3-4 times faster uphill, thus changing the dynamics of a multi-direction and multi-use trail.

    Will every eBike rider go super fast uphill? No one can answer that for sure, but we can speculate that some will. The faster the closing speed from 2 different directions the higher chance of an accident or someone getting hurt.

    That IS something that Land Managers are concerned about. My local trail system already has a 15mph speed limit posted.
    Again, high speeds downhill are good, but high speeds uphill are bad? Why does the downhill rider get a pass? Last time I checked, uphill riders have the right of way.

    And no, don't take this too seriously. It's just a thought exercise, to look at things from a different perspective. For fun, believe it or not. Both are mechanical advantages offered by modern technology, but somehow the presence of a motor makes one the scourge of the mountain bike community. Why is that? Is it the electricity? Is electricity bad now? Is it cheating? If so, why isn't suspension cheating when gravity is providing the power? If the e-bike's battery is charged with solar power, is it any different than gravity? Really? Both are natural power sources.....


    .

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    Is the e-motorbike sub-forum a defacto safe space now?
    Apparently not, the rule that we can not call them mopeds is no longer in place.

    btw, here's the current ad on my sidebar (really):

    Are full suspension bikes the e-bikes of downhill?-screen-shot-2018-05-15-3.27.59-pm.png
    Quote Originally Posted by Oh My Sack! View Post
    Remember, there's always quilting and knitting if pedalling becomes too tough.

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    Again, high speeds downhill are good, but high speeds uphill are bad? Why does the downhill rider get a pass? Last time I checked, uphill riders have the right of way.

    And no, don't take this too seriously. It's just a thought exercise, to look at things from a different perspective. For fun, believe it or not. Both are mechanical advantages offered by modern technology, but somehow the presence of a motor makes one the scourge of the mountain bike community. Why is that? Is it the electricity? Is electricity bad now? Is it cheating? If so, why isn't suspension cheating when gravity is providing the power? If the e-bike's battery is charged with solar power, is it any different than gravity? Really? Both are natural power sources.....


    .
    Motors are not a natural power source and have always been the line of demarcation between HUMAN POWERED and not. Pretty simple premise and one really begins to question the real intention of this bombardment of e-threads.
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  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    If you have a bicycle to ride on non-motorized trails and a motorcycle to ride on motorized trails, why are you so enamored with ebikes?
    Who said I like e-bikes? I don't recall saying that. I have no desire to own one. If you go back and re-read the OP, you'll find my question was about weather or not suspension is "cheating", and it was the "super-moderator" who steered the discussion in the direction of e-bike access.

    In fact, I'd prefer e-bikes be confined to motorized trails, so that more motorized trails get built.

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    Two negative reps so far. LOL.

    Clearly you dimwits don't understand the concept of satire.
    Oh!

    Well then, back to the original question.

    Hahaha! No.
    Why Johnny Ringo, you look like someone just walked over your grave.

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    Who said I like e-bikes? I don't recall saying that. I have no desire to own one. If you go back and re-read the OP, you'll find my question was about weather or not suspension is "cheating", and it was the "super-moderator" who steered the discussion in the direction of e-bike access.

    In fact, I'd prefer e-bikes be confined to motorized trails, so that more motorized trails get built.
    Or in other words, you're just trolling.

    "Weather or not"? Is that more of that fancy satire stuff you're using on us? Kinda like witchcraft or voodoo or something?
    Quote Originally Posted by Oh My Sack! View Post
    Remember, there's always quilting and knitting if pedalling becomes too tough.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post

    Personally, and this is my own opinion and does not reflect the views of fc or MTBR, I think allowing any discussion of eBikes is a bad move. It is just opening a can of worms. I would prefer there was no eBike section, it would mean less headache trying to put out the fires everyday....
    Then perhaps you should recuse yourself from moderating issues like this, especially once you have commented publicly upon them. A moderator is by definition an arbitrator or mediator, both of which are supposed to be neutral, unbiased parties.

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    Two negative reps so far. LOL.

    Clearly you dimwits don't understand the concept of satire.
    Nope, just totally sick of mopeds and dimwits trying to normalize them as bicycles. Get that clickbait shit outta here. Neg reps are a good idea to control this behavior.
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  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    Two negative reps so far. LOL.

    Clearly you dimwits don't understand the concept of satire.
    I stand by my words. Thanks for returning the neg-rep in self-defense though. If you read my post history I clearly attempt to add to the body of knowledge of MTBR and not troll w/ "satire"

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonaid View Post
    And thanks for Strava for getting MTB's banned. I knew someday that data could comeback to bit us in the butt.

    Meh. While it has happened, it's incredibly rare. Los Altos is about the only example I can come up with.

    Since Strava launched, we have far more trails available to us... not less.
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  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Travis Bickle View Post
    Motor vs human power!
    Actually, human vs gravitational kinetic energy. He has a point.

    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    Why do downhill riders get carte blance to ride as fast as they like?
    Because they generally ride on purpose-built, one-way, down-hill trails, cannot go quickly on the flat and struggle to go up hills at all. eBIkes can go fast anywhere.

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    Actually, human vs gravitational kinetic energy. He has a point.



    Because they generally ride on purpose-built, one-way, down-hill trails, cannot go quickly on the flat and struggle to go up hills at all. eBIkes can go fast anywhere.
    Again, not for or against but the go fast anywhere argument is majorly flawed. Up a long straight away, sure but you have great sight lines. Around uphill turns, highly doubtful as body positioning is going to be tough pull off to be able to take a turn at a high rate of speed and maintain it. You also have the weight of the bike to contend with which makes an uphill turn more tricky.

    On a downhill, high speed turn the changes in acceleration are usually conducive to weighting the front wheel. Going up it's just going to wash out.

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  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    No shortage of people demonizing e-bikes here because pedal assist is "cheating". Makes it easier to go uphill, turns a mediocre rider into a fast rider, etc.

    Can the same not be said for full suspension bikes? Is bicycle suspension really just "bump assist"? Making it easier to go faster downhill, makes rough trails into smooth trails, turns a mediocre rider in to a fast rider?

    Seems like those "bad ass" riders on full suspension non-motorized bikes might be hypocrites. At the bottom of the trail, are the guys on rigid bikes the ones who "earned it"? Are the full suspension guys "cheating"?



    .
    Serious question. Do you think that regular mountain bikers are responsible for e-bikes being banned from trails?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    Or are they really tiny, like elves, fairies, sprites, and other wee folk?
    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    Remember when we could say "midget" without imprisonment?
    Apparently it's called "micro" now. Just today, Facebook fed me an ad for a "Micro Wrestling" event nearby.

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  70. #70
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    Unless you pedaled or hiked to the top of the hill yourself, downhill is powered by whatever did, be it a lift, shuttle, donkey, etc..
    Do the math.

  71. #71
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    So a thread based on the idea of downhill being lazy is in General?

    Sounds like it's in the wrong place...

  72. #72
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    trolls threads are fucking retarded. go crash your bike into a tree...


  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lone Rager View Post
    Unless you pedaled or hiked to the top of the hill yourself, downhill is powered by whatever did, be it a lift, shuttle, donkey, etc..
    This post has potential.
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  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    Do you really want to have a discussion about this, or are you just trying to incite anger with the user base here?

    The presence of a motor makes it POSSIBLE for a rider to go 3-4 times faster uphill, thus changing the dynamics of a multi-direction and multi-use trail.

    Will every eBike rider go super fast uphill? No one can answer that for sure, but we can speculate that some will. The faster the closing speed from 2 different directions the higher chance of an accident or someone getting hurt.

    That IS something that Land Managers are concerned about. My local trail system already has a 15mph speed limit posted.
    Why are moderators trolling?

    If you are personally against ebike discussions, why are you discussing them so much?

  75. #75
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    There is some truth. Irresponsibility is the problem. Motors, suspension, tires etc just give the irresponsible person more opportunities to chuck force around.

    What irks me is the guy who preaches human power and says a 1000w motor is a threat to anyone around it. Then he goes tearing a$$ down the road in some massive V8 with a couple beers or a joint in him.

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by knutso View Post
    There is some truth. Irresponsibility is the problem. Motors, suspension, tires etc just give the irresponsible person more opportunities to chuck force around.

    What irks me is the guy who preaches human power and says a 1000w motor is a threat to anyone around it. Then he goes tearing a$$ down the road in some massive V8 with a couple beers or a joint in him.
    Do what? Pull all that together for me, if ya could.


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  77. #77
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    Are full suspension bikes the e-bikes of downhill?

    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    Two negative reps so far. LOL.

    Clearly you dimwits don't understand the concept of satire.
    Most posts about e-bikes tick off anyone who doesn’t e-bike. So care to share how this is satire or a discussion? The demarcation isn’t clear.
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  78. #78
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    Are full suspension bikes the e-bikes of downhill?

    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    Again, high speeds downhill are good, but high speeds uphill are bad? Why does the downhill rider get a pass? Last time I checked, uphill riders have the right of way.

    And no, don't take this too seriously. It's just a thought exercise, to look at things from a different perspective. For fun, believe it or not. Both are mechanical advantages offered by modern technology, but somehow the presence of a motor makes one the scourge of the mountain bike community. Why is that? Is it the electricity? Is electricity bad now? Is it cheating? If so, why isn't suspension cheating when gravity is providing the power? If the e-bike's battery is charged with solar power, is it any different than gravity? Really? Both are natural power sources.....


    .
    If this post is supposed to be satire, as you claimed earlier, it is not a thought exercise.

    This whole thing is a logical fallacy—equivocation—satire or not.
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  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    Two negative reps so far. LOL.

    Clearly you dimwits don't understand the concept of satire.
    Maybe your satire just isn't good. You're really just trolling.

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by knutso View Post
    What irks me is the guy who preaches human power and says a 1000w motor is a threat to anyone around it. Then he goes tearing a$$ down the road in some massive V8 with a couple beers or a joint in him.
    What? Why don't you take up that argument with that dude, because there's no way you know two people that fit that bill... If you even know one.

  81. #81
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    mo·ped
    ˈmōˌped/
    noun
    noun: moped; plural noun: mopeds

    a low-power, lightweight motorized bicycle.
    Life in every breath

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by knutso View Post
    What irks me is the guy who preaches human power and says a 1000w motor is a threat to anyone around it. Then he goes tearing a$$ down the road in some massive V8 with a couple beers or a joint in him.
    Does this mythical beast exist outside of your imagination?

  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbmb65 View Post
    Do what? Pull all that together for me, if ya could.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    Motors make going faster easier. So does suspension, good tires etc.

    The faster an irresponsible rider goes, the more damage he will inflict when he collides with someone. The bike's ability to build and carry speed determines the destructive potential of the rider.

    A 1000w bicycle has a hundred times less destructive potential than an automobile. When someone preaches the imminent dangers of a 1000w ebike, and drives off in a truck, I wonder why they feel someone can use a car/truck responsibly but not a 1000w bike.

    People walk and ride bikes on the road, same as the trails. How does the distinction of road vs trail trigger such a huge shift in ethics, when the threat to life is still very much there and in fact increased many times over?

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    Meth makes me go faster.
    Stick around if you're housebroken...

  85. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    No shortage of people demonizing e-bikes here because pedal assist is "cheating". Makes it easier to go uphill, turns a mediocre rider into a fast rider, etc
    .
    We already can't ride our human powered vehicles on the roadway without risking our lives, and now motor driven vehicles are clogging or going to clog up our off road areas, filing with noobs not interested in fitness or trail maintenance.

    Leave the off road for human power.

  86. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    No shortage of people demonizing e-bikes here because pedal assist is "cheating". Makes it easier to go uphill, turns a mediocre rider into a fast rider, etc.

    Can the same not be said for full suspension bikes? Is bicycle suspension really just "bump assist"? Making it easier to go faster downhill, makes rough trails into smooth trails, turns a mediocre rider in to a fast rider?

    Seems like those "bad ass" riders on full suspension non-motorized bikes might be hypocrites. At the bottom of the trail, are the guys on rigid bikes the ones who "earned it"? Are the full suspension guys "cheating"?
    You are so right!

    I always stop people on 29 bikes on the trail and tell them: really, you think you are so "bad ass" but it is your wheels that make it easier to go faster downhill, make rough trails into smooth trails, and turn a mediocre rider into a fast rider. When I am at the bottom of the trail I am the one who "earned it"!!!!

    Perhaps surprisingly the 29-ers agree. Ashamed, many sell their bikes and pick up their forgotten 26, some, seemingly to properly repent, start using a BMX on the trail!!!

    Are full suspension bikes the e-bikes of downhill?-m15_20b_legionl20_red.1408534942.1431024980.jpg

  87. #87
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    So, here's what I've learned from this well-thought out thread:
    Quote Originally Posted by scottzg View Post
    Every new model they slack out the head angle a tiny bit. This process has been going on longer than you knew.
    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    You didn't use the satire emoji.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    Actually, human vs gravitational kinetic energy. He has a point....
    Quote Originally Posted by Lone Rager View Post
    Unless you pedaled or hiked to the top of the hill yourself, downhill is powered by whatever did, be it a lift, shuttle, donkey, etc..
    Quote Originally Posted by the one ring View Post
    This post has potential.
    I feel smarter already.

    Which should put me a good cerebral position to answer the question of:
    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    No shortage of people demonizing e-bikes here because pedal assist is "cheating". Makes it easier to go uphill, turns a mediocre rider into a fast rider, etc.

    Can the same not be said for full suspension bikes? Is bicycle suspension really just "bump assist"? Making it easier to go faster downhill, makes rough trails into smooth trails, turns a mediocre rider in to a fast rider?

    Seems like those "bad ass" riders on full suspension non-motorized bikes might be hypocrites. At the bottom of the trail, are the guys on rigid bikes the ones who "earned it"? Are the full suspension guys "cheating"?



    .
    No.

    And the closing speed argument carries a lot more weight than many believe. Why? Because nearly everyone believes that they are riding on the most gnar-bro-whoa! trail out there and can't imagine the scenario of a person riding an ebike on a smooth - dare I say featureless - [flow] trail at breakneck speed in the anti-flow direction. The mediocre rider is still a mediocre rider, but they are going faster.

    Besides, as trails get smoother, and appeal more to novices, the difference in speed between a FS bike and a hardtail or even a rigid is less - thereby negating the suspension advantage.

    Note: Ebikes are not "cheating" - unless you are riding it on a non-motorized trail.

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    It's never easier - you just go faster.

  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by knutso View Post
    What irks me is the guy who preaches human power and says a 1000w motor is a threat to anyone around it. Then he goes tearing a$$ down the road in some massive V8 with a couple beers or a joint in him.
    Which one of us are you talking about? Please tell me and I will happily decry his behavior too. As would any right-minded soul.

    Yes, anyone on any kind of bike can act irresponsibly and go too fast for the circumstances. Yes, knobheads can drive while drunk. What's your point? That we shouldn't be worried about people on eBikes being irresponsible because... other people doing other things are sometimes irresponsible too? If so, that's not a very good point.

  89. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by knutso View Post
    Motors make going faster easier. So does suspension, good tires etc.

    The faster an irresponsible rider goes, the more damage he will inflict when he collides with someone. The bike's ability to build and carry speed determines the destructive potential of the rider.

    A 1000w bicycle has a hundred times less destructive potential than an automobile. When someone preaches the imminent dangers of a 1000w ebike, and drives off in a truck, I wonder why they feel someone can use a car/truck responsibly but not a 1000w bike.

    People walk and ride bikes on the road, same as the trails. How does the distinction of road vs trail trigger such a huge shift in ethics, when the threat to life is still very much there and in fact increased many times over?
    Ok, I think I understand. So cars and gas powered motorcycles should be allowed on trails as well? As long as they’re responsible? Is that it?


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  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by knutso View Post
    Motors make going faster easier. So does suspension, good tires etc.

    The faster an irresponsible rider goes, the more damage he will inflict when he collides with someone. The bike's ability to build and carry speed determines the destructive potential of the rider.

    A 1000w bicycle has a hundred times less destructive potential than an automobile. When someone preaches the imminent dangers of a 1000w ebike, and drives off in a truck, I wonder why they feel someone can use a car/truck responsibly but not a 1000w bike.

    People walk and ride bikes on the road, same as the trails. How does the distinction of road vs trail trigger such a huge shift in ethics, when the threat to life is still very much there and in fact increased many times over?
    Laws are very specific (nearly every possible circumstance is covered by them) and strictly enforced on the roads, making collisions very unlikely and typically due to human error. On the trails there are only vague laws, some general guidelines and zero enforcement. The result is that collisions are somewhat likely and are often simply 'wrong place, wrong time' instances.

    Also, roads are necessities in our modern society. Vehicle deaths are tragic, but considered a worthwhile sacrifice for the convenience roads give us (at least that's the implied sacrifice one makes in using them). Trails are for recreation, the amount of risk we as a society should accept is decreased. We could drop all speed limits to 15 for roads and that'd save lives, but it'd hurt our society as a whole (again, at least that's the implied consensus) whereas if everyone has to take it a little easier on trails to avoid injuries that's no biggie.

    Next in the nearly never-ending line of reasoning for why your comparison is ridiculous, cars are licensed and regulated. You must be of an age our society deems responsible and then jump through some hoops to show you're responsible. If you make a poor choice with your car, you may not be allowed to drive a car for a while... Or ever again. There is no such regulation with bikes or trails.

    Then there's the difference in vehicle cost; I don't really care if I lay my bike down, I do nearly every ride. I don't like to even think about denting my car, much less wrecking it. My risk/reward calculations are very different between the two, as they are for everyone I'd guess. The guy in the monster V8 may be a jerk, but I bet he doesn't want to see a scratch on that car. Put the same guy on a bike and see how much he cares about a little scratch or ding.

    I feel like I could go on for days, but I don't think it's necessary. The fact that you either couldn't think of these on your own, or did and didn't think them significant, tells me I'm probably wasting my time here.

  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davide View Post
    You are so right!

    I always stop people on 29 bikes on the trail and tell them: really, you think you are so "bad ass" but it is your wheels that make it easier to go faster downhill, make rough trails into smooth trails, and turn a mediocre rider into a fast rider. When I am at the bottom of the trail I am the one who "earned it"!!!!

    Perhaps surprisingly the 29-ers agree. Ashamed, many sell their bikes and pick up their forgotten 26, some, seemingly to properly repent, start using a BMX on the trail!!!

    Click image for larger version. 

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    One word the anti e bike crowd likes to use is “purist”. It’s comical how they think because they pedal a long travel 29er with a 50t they’re a purist! LOL. What a joke. Anyone riding a modern full suspension bike is not a purist by any means. Everyone is looking for a gimmick to smooth out the trail and go faster easier. So in essence, everyone is riding with some sort of assist.

  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by ALimon View Post
    One word the anti e bike crowd likes to use is “purist”. It’s comical how they think because they pedal a long travel 29er with a 50t they’re a purist! LOL. What a joke. Anyone riding a modern full suspension bike is not a purist by any means. Everyone is looking for a gimmick to smooth out the trail and go faster easier. So in essence, everyone is riding with some sort of assist.
    BS. Another Red Herring.
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  93. #93
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    If purist means cyclist, I'm in.

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  94. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by ALimon View Post
    So in essence, everyone is riding with some sort of assist.



    Except for the unimaginative that keep trotting out the same sketchy reasoning in every thread that doesn't fit their e-agenda.
    Wanted, SRAM GX 2x11 rear derailleur

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  95. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by ALimon View Post
    Everyone is looking for a gimmick to smooth out the trail and go faster easier.
    That's me, baby!

  96. #96
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    :: eyeroll ::
    Bikes, lots'o bikes

  97. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDwayyo View Post
    Laws are very specific (nearly every possible circumstance is covered by them) and strictly enforced on the roads,
    This is the funniest thing I've read on the internet in years.

    Enforced

    LOL
    *** --- *** --- ***

  98. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    Except for the unimaginative that keep trotting out the same sketchy reasoning in every thread that doesn't fit their e-agenda.

    What amazes me is how much time you non e bike folk spend on ebike topics. You all kick n scream like it’s goung to make a difference. E bikes are coming with or without you.

  99. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shayne View Post
    This is the funniest thing I've read on the internet in years.

    Enforced

    LOL
    Consider the source. The dude is dwayyo out there!

  100. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by ALimon View Post
    One word the anti e bike crowd likes to use is “purist”. It’s comical how they think because they pedal a long travel 29er with a 50t they’re a purist! LOL. What a joke. Anyone riding a modern full suspension bike is not a purist by any means. Everyone is looking for a gimmick to smooth out the trail and go faster easier. So in essence, everyone is riding with some sort of assist.
    I totally agree, purist is a stupid word unless you're into steel ten speed road bikes (and even then we could debate how pure it is). I do know some of those purists, but in mountain biking it doesn't really exist.

    Also correct, everyone is riding with some sort of assist... It's called a bicycle, it's really difficult to ride without one. Every part of it is designed to assist you in using your energy as efficiently as possible. I repeat; using your energy as efficiently as possible.

    There's only one thing that can be added to a bicycle that actually brings new energy that the rider does not provide into the equation; a motor. Up until e-bikes, any attempt to add a motor has always been classified as something other than a bicycle. Why should electric motors be different again?

    If I add a motor, propeller and wings to my bike I bet I could get a few KOMs on my local tracks. Is that still a bicycle? I'll use an electric motor if that helps.

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