Expectations of Privacy when in public- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Expectations of Privacy when in public

    Recently someone reported a post that had pictures of someone performing trail sabotage, supposedly with the intent to harm mountain bikers.

    Pictures were posted of the sabatuer in the act that were taken with a trail camera. The face was blocked out.

    The pictures were removed(not by me) with the complaint being that a specific user was inciting violence against the person who was caught sabotaging a trail with the supposed intent to cause violence to the MTB community.

    I need to make a strong comment here, and these are my beliefs and have nothing to do with any direction the site leadership has given. (each moderator has the freedom to respond to reports as they see fit)

    When you are in public you have no expectation of Privacy. If you get caught setting up traps on a trail with the intent to harm other trail users, you are a bad person and deserve to spend time in jail. If posting your picture on Forums and Social media helps the public identify you and turn you into the authorities, GOOD.

    DO NOT TRY to hide under some false premise that you deserve to be able to vandalize trails and get away with it.

    Recently the CDFW posted video and screen shots of Mountain Bikers on public news programs in San Diego. Those videos and pictures showed Mountain Bikers taking down signs and vandalizing trails. This was run on multiple news outlets. The CDFW was sending a strong message to the local MTB Community; "we are watching you and have video evidence to use against you if we want to". Why would it be any different to post similar videos and images here? It is not. Stop pretending that criminals need to be protected from their actions under some guise of privacy. If you don't want to face the consequences of vandalism and trail sabotage.... DONT DO IT.

    The claim is that posting someones picture has the possibility to bring them direct harm.... NO, going out and getting caught setting up traps that can hurts others is going to bring them harm.

    Do not try and protect those who are trying to harm you or your trail access rights.
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  2. #2
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    In a broader sense, while I would like to have some degree of privacy in public, I don't have any real expectation of it.

    I'll play devil's advocate on the picture posting. It seems that a good many law enforcement programs blur the faces of those being arrested in order to protect their privacy, presumably to protect their "innocent until proven guilty" rights. Perhaps this concept would also apply to game camera footage of trail saboteurs.
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    Recently someone reported a post that had pictures of someone performing trail sabotage, supposedly with the intent to harm mountain bikers.

    Pictures were posted of the sabatuer in the act that were taken with a trail camera. The face was blocked out.

    The pictures were removed(not by me) with the complaint being that a specific user was inciting violence against the person who was caught sabotaging a trail with the supposed intent to cause violence to the MTB community.

    I need to make a strong comment here, and these are my beliefs and have nothing to do with any direction the site leadership has given. (each moderator has the freedom to respond to reports as they see fit)

    When you are in public you have no expectation of Privacy. If you get caught setting up traps on a trail with the intent to harm other trail users, you are a bad person and deserve to spend time in jail. If posting your picture on Forums and Social media helps the public identify you and turn you into the authorities, GOOD.

    DO NOT TRY to hide under some false premise that you deserve to be able to vandalize trails and get away with it.

    Recently the CDFW posted video and screen shots of Mountain Bikers on public news programs in San Diego. Those videos and pictures showed Mountain Bikers taking down signs and vandalizing trails. This was run on multiple news outlets. The CDFW was sending a strong message to the local MTB Community; "we are watching you and have video evidence to use against you if we want to". Why would it be any different to post similar videos and images here? It is not. Stop pretending that criminals need to be protected from their actions under some guise of privacy. If you don't want to face the consequences of vandalism and trail sabotage.... DONT DO IT.

    The claim is that posting someones picture has the possibility to bring them direct harm.... NO, going out and getting caught setting up traps that can hurts others is going to bring them harm.

    Do not try and protect those who are trying to harm you or your trail access rights.
    I will just say that I took those photos out as there was a legal proceeding regarding them.

    I agree however that if you do dumb things from trail vandalism to citizens arrest and it is filmed you should expect to have those images shared with the public. We live in a time where people take high powered cameras to any and all locations including the bathroom and can immediately share videos from those devices.

    While they are not immune from the consequences of them sharing the video or images, you are also not immune to them sharing them. Assuming that you are somewhere without a camera is a stupid assumption. If you chose to break laws you should protect yourself appropriately, chose to not break the laws, or accept that you might be identified and held as an example on the forum of public opinion.
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  4. #4
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    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Klurejr again.

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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curveball View Post
    In a broader sense, while I would like to have some degree of privacy in public, I don't have any real expectation of it.

    I'll play devil's advocate on the picture posting. It seems that a good many law enforcement programs blur the faces of those being arrested in order to protect their privacy, presumably to protect their "innocent until proven guilty" rights. Perhaps this concept would also apply to game camera footage of trail saboteurs.
    Wouldn't we have to first identify, pursue and arrest a suspect for that to be applicable here?

    They don't blur out the faces of people on wanted posters, particularly when they don't have a name (police sketch) for the person.
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  6. #6
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    My common sense overrides my principles in this case. Mindless witch hunting (mobbing) happens a lot. All sorts of people out there and it's easy to witness the history of the internet community who like to take justice into their own hands. In more than one case, I found negative reviews spammed on some private business that went out of favor for firing someone who did something nasty, where their story got published on the net and people believed the target of nasty behavior deserved it.

    I leave it to the professionals and experts regarding justice. Wanting to damn others to suffering as justice is just a distraction from any discussion. Maybe the intent of these topics was to discuss something more peacefully...
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockcrusher View Post
    I will just say that I took those photos out as there was a legal proceeding regarding them.
    I'm not sure that that alone is a great reason to do so. Now, if the person who shared those images was involved in the legal proceedings or otherwise did not have authorization to share the images, then they shouldn't have shared them to begin with.

    Put it this way - how often does video get shared of something happening to a cyclist on the road, that video goes online, and then the person shown in the video gets charges filed? Happens with some regularity. Happened just a few miles from my house, actually. The driver who assaulted the cyclist was found and charged. The local news didn't pull the footage from their websites.

    Here ya go:

    https://wlos.com/news/local/candler-...lty-to-assault

    Here's one from before the guy was caught.

    https://www.citizen-times.com/story/...ist/730627001/

  8. #8
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    Yeah they would get sued, and tangled up in court.

    Commercial enterprises (mtbr) gotta take that down or have a good legal team on salary that have nothing else to do.

    No expectations of privacy in public but the courts are filled with frivolous law suits, its a waste of time and money.

  9. #9
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    I believe there have been numerous legal cases that there is no expectation of privacy in locations such as that.


    A lawyer or a citizen can send you a letter asking you to cease and desist, but that doesn't make their request legal. Recently, one did this in one of our FB groups, but it was an invalid complaint.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Wouldn't we have to first identify, pursue and arrest a suspect for that to be applicable here?

    They don't blur out the faces of people on wanted posters, particularly when they don't have a name (police sketch) for the person.
    Oh I agree with you. I was just trying to consider other aspects of the situation.

    I suppose a possible risk with posting pictures of people doing bad things on-line would be if the photos were doctored in some way to make the person look guilty.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curveball View Post

    I suppose a possible risk with posting pictures of people doing bad things on-line would be if the photos were doctored in some way to make the person look guilty.
    Eventually if not already it will be impossible to distinguish between the two.



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  12. #12
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    I would be careful posting any footage these days since technology advanced in a way that is possible to alter video and sounds in a way that it is hard to know if that clip is real or not.
    Doubt that someone will go through that effort to frame a person sabotaging a trail but the more that technology trickles down to the end user the less you can believe what you see and hear and some people go through great effort to get even with someone.

    That astronaut lady driving through state lines in adult diapers so she would not had to stop comes for some to me strange and I am used to some strange thoughts and twists reasons to my mind.
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  13. #13
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    I'm with Kleurjr on this one, I'd post them up and let the sh!t fall where it may. It's not like there isn't a precedent of amateur video of people doing bad things being seen on the internet forcing police to finally take action where they otherwise couldn't be bothered......

    If at some point some lawyer serves up a cease and desist, or a threat of a lawsuit, then you could think about pulling them, but until then, I'd leave them.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    If at some point some lawyer serves up a cease and desist, or a threat of a lawsuit, then you could think about pulling them, but until then, I'd leave them.
    Excellent point Harryman. I am quite certain no such letter was presented to MTBR, nor do I think it would be in this particular case.


    If the person who posted the pics had not blacked out the face, it was a solid black box, and had posted up any personal information about the person, then I would probably stop that. But it is going a bit far to claim that a photo of a human body with no distinguishable facial features and no other personal information is a personal attack on someones privacy that could lead to their direct harm. That was the claim made about the pictures in question.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    I'm with Kleurjr on this one, I'd post them up and let the sh!t fall where it may. It's not like there isn't a precedent of amateur video of people doing bad things being seen on the internet forcing police to finally take action where they otherwise couldn't be bothered......

    If at some point some lawyer serves up a cease and desist, or a threat of a lawsuit, then you could think about pulling them, but until then, I'd leave them.
    but until then, its too late and its all out in the public domain.

    Post the picture without the blurred out section and post it without any changes to the image. Get a group together to raise some reward money, sling posters up in the area, trail head parking lot, community.

    That shooting of the black kid by white people was filmed, and arrests were made only after the cell phone image came out.

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    So MTBR is going all out for vigilantism then? What happened to 'following the rules/law' and reporting this type of stuff to the appropriate authorities/agencies or does that only apply when it's convenient to the individual making the accusations? You can't have your cake and eat it too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by matadorCE View Post
    So MTBR is going all out for vigilantism then? What happened to 'following the rules/law' and reporting this type of stuff to the appropriate authorities/agencies or does that only apply when it's convenient to the individual making the accusations? You can't have your cake and eat it too.
    You talking MTBR users or MTBR website itself
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    Other users dont care, its not their back yard
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    Who is accusing who, do we know the photographers identity seems so anonymous with the internet age, can post it up without no hassle. Inquiring minds need to know, others just down their beer, hop in their truck and grab their fourth 6 pack of beer for the day doing the one eye road test.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    I'm not sure that that alone is a great reason to do so. Now, if the person who shared those images was involved in the legal proceedings or otherwise did not have authorization to share the images, then they shouldn't have shared them to begin with.

    Put it this way - how often does video get shared of something happening to a cyclist on the road, that video goes online, and then the person shown in the video gets charges filed? Happens with some regularity. Happened just a few miles from my house, actually. The driver who assaulted the cyclist was found and charged. The local news didn't pull the footage from their websites.

    Here ya go:

    https://wlos.com/news/local/candler-...lty-to-assault

    Here's one from before the guy was caught.

    https://www.citizen-times.com/story/...ist/730627001/
    Their legal already had archive of them anyway. The idea was that the OP was accused of inciting violence/retaliation against the person in the photo and leaving them up continued the threat.

    Legally there was nothing he could do but certainly didn't want to be continuing what he was being accused of doing.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    Excellent point Harryman. I am quite certain no such letter was presented to MTBR, nor do I think it would be in this particular case.


    If the person who posted the pics had not blacked out the face, it was a solid black box, and had posted up any personal information about the person, then I would probably stop that. But it is going a bit far to claim that a photo of a human body with no distinguishable facial features and no other personal information is a personal attack on someones privacy that could lead to their direct harm. That was the claim made about the pictures in question.
    I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm on the lookout when out in the woods for a trail saboteur with a black block for a head. I see that black block and I'll know right away that they're up to no good.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by matadorCE View Post
    So MTBR is going all out for vigilantism then? What happened to 'following the rules/law' and reporting this type of stuff to the appropriate authorities/agencies or does that only apply when it's convenient to the individual making the accusations? You can't have your cake and eat it too.
    He is following the rules. What he's doing isn't illegal. I can literally go out and buy cake, and then eat it. If you don't want to be caught sabotaging the trail, don't sabotage the trail. And from my experience, the authorities absolutely love when these types of things are posted on social media-makes evidence collection easy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by matadorCE View Post
    So MTBR is going all out for vigilantism then? What happened to 'following the rules/law' and reporting this type of stuff to the appropriate authorities/agencies or does that only apply when it's convenient to the individual making the accusations? You can't have your cake and eat it too.
    Huh?

    I'm hoping that people recognize and report the saboteur, and that he/she is arrested, charged, and convicted.

    Who said anything about vigilantism? Is informing the police that someone you recognize committed a crime the act of a vigilante now?

    I don't believe anyone here (in this thread, at least) has advocated for any kind of illegal or violent action against the suspect.
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Huh?

    I'm hoping that people recognize and report the saboteur, and that he/she is arrested, charged, and convicted.

    Who said anything about vigilantism? Is informing the police that someone you recognize committed a crime the act of a vigilante now?

    I don't believe anyone here (in this thread, at least) has advocated for any kind of illegal or violent action against the suspect.
    Really? Read up on some of the comments, the undertone is pretty clear. More worrisome, there are claims that posting a picture of someone will not bring them any direct harm which isn't necessarily true. You never know who's reading this site and what mental state they're in; it's a hell of a slippery slope IMO. If someone is clearly caught doing bad shit to hurt others on the trail, then they deserve to be outed but what happens in cases where the evidence isn't so clear? Again, slippery slope.

  23. #23
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    If the police are blurring a face, I bet 99% it would be a juvenile. It would not make any sense to say, we are looking for this person and have their face blurred out.


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  24. #24
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    The camera footage reminds me not to kick the shit out of someone sabotaging trails.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vader View Post
    The camera footage reminds me not to kick the shit out of someone sabotaging trails.
    Now isn't that a potentially concerning consequence of all this? The impacted becoming the accused seems to be the modern way.

    Dude that sabotaged our trails back in the day caused me a cracked elbow. I'm pretty sure he also kicked in the front and hood of my car whilst I was doing trail work. Cops were pretty sure who it was and some riders confronted the likely perp covered in evidence (charcoal arms from moving burned logs over trail in bad places). No revenge was perpetrated by riders and the cops did not arrest anyone. What stopped it was mass of numbers. Too many riders and trails too popular made it impossible for the jerk to survive without being caught (and tried by bush justice). Only one pic was ever put up online. I always wondered what would happen if more appeared.

    Seems the only answer is to take lots of pics, provide them to the authorities and hope for the best.

  26. #26
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    I believe in this case the saboteur's face was blurred because she was fugly.

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  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockcrusher View Post
    Their legal already had archive of them anyway. The idea was that the OP was accused of inciting violence/retaliation against the person in the photo and leaving them up continued the threat.

    Legally there was nothing he could do but certainly didn't want to be continuing what he was being accused of doing.
    That video was all over the internet before the guy was caught. I remember seeing it. Nobody removed it from anywhere I saw it posted because of some nebulous "the presence of the photo is inciting violence/retaliation against the guy punching the cyclist".

    This is something we need to talk about in our community (the larger trail user community, not just mtb community). I can't tell you how many times I've seen on a local Facebook group about someone who found trail vandalism (nails on the trail, clotheslines strung up, etc), who stated outright that they just tore it down and did nothing else. No reporting to LEOs. Only complained in a Facebook group. WTF do these people think is going to actually stop this trail vandalism? Certainly not pretending it isn't happening. People vandalizing trails like this are TRYING TO HURT PEOPLE! That, to me, qualifies them for every recourse at my disposal. Meaning, if I have pics/video, it's going to the police AND it's going online. If I catch them in the act, I'm confronting taking pics, confronting them, and THEN going to the police.

    The general trail user population needs to know that this kind of thing is unacceptable. Vandals need to know that trail users are watching, and they will be caught.

    The only inciting violence I would buy would be any words written by the person who posted the pic. I didn't see the post, so I don't know what was written, but words inciting violence can be removed without removing the picture. With the picture already blurred, I don't see a problem with it.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    That video was all over the internet before the guy was caught. I remember seeing it. Nobody removed it from anywhere I saw it posted because of some nebulous "the presence of the photo is inciting violence/retaliation against the guy punching the cyclist".

    This is something we need to talk about in our community (the larger trail user community, not just mtb community). I can't tell you how many times I've seen on a local Facebook group about someone who found trail vandalism (nails on the trail, clotheslines strung up, etc), who stated outright that they just tore it down and did nothing else. No reporting to LEOs. Only complained in a Facebook group. WTF do these people think is going to actually stop this trail vandalism? Certainly not pretending it isn't happening. People vandalizing trails like this are TRYING TO HURT PEOPLE! That, to me, qualifies them for every recourse at my disposal. Meaning, if I have pics/video, it's going to the police AND it's going online. If I catch them in the act, I'm confronting taking pics, confronting them, and THEN going to the police.

    The general trail user population needs to know that this kind of thing is unacceptable. Vandals need to know that trail users are watching, and they will be caught.

    The only inciting violence I would buy would be any words written by the person who posted the pic. I didn't see the post, so I don't know what was written, but words inciting violence can be removed without removing the picture. With the picture already blurred, I don't see a problem with it.
    Oof. I guess in the fun that is the internet there was another incident that was not related to this one that I had participated in. Hooray for society!

    So then I didn't remove this one but a different issue from a game camera of a trail saboteur in a different but similar incident in which legal proceedings had started. My bad.

    I also agree that if you do something bad, and it is caught on camera, then you should not be immune to the consequences of your actions, even if the solution is litigation because someone put your personal information or your likeness out there for information.
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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ridnparadise View Post
    Dude that sabotaged our trails back in the day caused me a cracked elbow. I'm pretty sure he also kicked in the front and hood of my car whilst I was doing trail work. Cops were pretty sure who it was and some riders confronted the likely perp covered in evidence (charcoal arms from moving burned logs over trail in bad places). No revenge was perpetrated by riders and the cops did not arrest anyone. What stopped it was mass of numbers. Too many riders and trails too popular made it impossible for the jerk to survive without being caught (and tried by bush justice). Only one pic was ever put up online. I always wondered what would happen if more appeared.

    Seems the only answer is to take lots of pics, provide them to the authorities and hope for the best.
    Agreed, take the evidence you can collect, get it to the Authorities and hope they can catch the guy. The world does not need more Mike Vandemans running around harming trail users.

    When it comes to identifying the person, I believe the point of posting a picture of the vandal online is the same as posting a wanted poster, it is not to incite the public to become vigilantes, it is to hope the public recognizes the perpetrator to help the Police identify them. If we allow criminals to keep their identities hidden because someone who is mentally unstable "might" hunt them down and attack them for their criminal acts.... we have our priorities wrong. Anyone who thinks it is okay to go out an hunt down an accused criminal on their own as a vigilante is ALSO a criminal. No one here or in the Thread where the pictures were removed are suggesting that anyone take the law into their own hands and attack or harass another human being. There are not even undertones of that sort of suggestion.

    Anyone who decides to harass or attack someone accused of Trail sabotage is also a Criminal.

    Lets not pretend otherwise.

    Collect the data, spread the data and hope it helps the Police in their investigation and hope for some justice.

    Do not engage in or exchange criminal behavior for criminal behavior.
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  30. #30
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    We get people dumping tires in our local state park all the time. I asked the manager if he put up any trail cams. The state won’t allow him to. It’s “entrapment” if an employee does it.

    It’s not if I ( a citizen ) does it. And no one has an expectation of privacy in public.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Curveball View Post
    I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm on the lookout when out in the woods for a trail saboteur with a black block for a head. I see that black block and I'll know right away that they're up to no good.
    Watch out for the blurry face people too, they can get ugly.
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  32. #32
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    I agree and was surprised to see their faces blocked out. But the pics were removed? Silly.

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    There’s a hundred and sixty two pages of trespasser pages on archerytalk in the bow hunting section as a sticky. AT is the mtbr of the archery world. For perspective at one time (at least) it was in the top 100 bulletin board websites in the world.

    Taking down pictures is a forum decision, not a legal decision. Pics away!

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vader View Post
    The camera footage reminds me not to kick the shit out of someone sabotaging trails.



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    Thanks Klurejr for the explanation. The fact that these people are accusing me of inciting violence/retaliation against them is just ludicrous. The live in an alternate reality and can't be reasoned with. Nobody is going after this person nor was a description provided. It was all intentionally left vague.

    The upside to all this drama is that the booby-trapping of trails has mostly stopped. It appears the mtb community caught the right person. There is quite a bit more to this story that will eventually come out. Since I know they are reading this and probably taking a screen shot right now to use against me in some rant to the USFS go ahead. Make my day.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockcrusher View Post
    I will just say that I took those photos out as there was a legal proceeding regarding them.
    Just so you know there was never a legal proceeding. Law enforcement investigated and spoke to the person in the pictures but they were not cited or served a summons to appear in court. The pictures tell the tale but apparently that wasn't enough.

    Apparently it's ok to alter trails to dissuade use or block b lines, even if it potentially results in injury but by all means don't get caught building an illegal trail. For that it's going to be a fine and a ban from the national forest.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    Apparently it's ok to alter trails to dissuade use or block b lines, even if it potentially results in injury but by all means don't get caught building an illegal trail. For that it's going to be a fine and a ban from the national forest.
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  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    potentially results in injury
    guess it needs to cause actual injury.

    I'd keep the cameras up (hiding/securing them better). that person will be back at it eventually.

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    Personally, I believe anything you say, do, and write outside your home and online is public. You should be held accountable for your actions.

    However, if its a crime--while I believe the perp should be outted and shamed--there's a very thin line here. Internet bullying is very dangerous and destructive with a huge risk of punishing/shaming the wrong person. The most recent being this poor cyclist. Read the article, imagine being him, and then revisit your position on the subject:

    https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/l...1-5433778f4483

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    Just so you know there was never a legal proceeding. Law enforcement investigated and spoke to the person in the pictures but they were not cited or served a summons to appear in court. The pictures tell the tale but apparently that wasn't enough.

    Apparently it's ok to alter trails to dissuade use or block b lines, even if it potentially results in injury but by all means don't get caught building an illegal trail. For that it's going to be a fine and a ban from the national forest.
    Bummer sorry about all that. As a southern AZ resident I would often come up to Flagstaff trails and ride them with the understanding that the lines that I rode would be open and not blocked. Especially the more technical lines. I can only imagine riding a line down a trail that looked used only to come around a corner and have a log or pile of logs or rocks being there and relying on my skills to not OTB. Worse also communicating to those that are behind me to check up and not come plowing through.

    Too many variables too many assholes in the world.
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  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by bingemtbr View Post
    Personally, I believe anything you say, do, and write outside your home and online is public. You should be held accountable for your actions.

    However, if its a crime--while I believe the perp should be outted and shamed--there's a very thin line here. Internet bullying is very dangerous and destructive with a huge risk of punishing/shaming the wrong person. The most recent being this poor cyclist. Read the article, imagine being him, and then revisit your position on the subject:

    https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/l...1-5433778f4483
    I read the article and don't see the problem. a few people thought it was a police officer, but once it was confirmed it was not said police officer the police made a statement to that effect.

    I did not read (in that particular article) where this false accusation lead to anything detrimental in the falsely accused life. Don't forgot Police routinely arrest innocent people who then must post bond or bail to get out of prison. This can happen from misleading or just wrong descriptions of people and cars they might be driving. Check out this article: https://jalopnik.com/why-i-had-to-ba...ted-1843986595

    No one is suggesting to advocating for Vigilante type actions. The sole purpose here is to identify and turn it over to authorities so it can aid their investigation.

    Maybe I missed it, was the falsely accused person physically harmed?
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  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockcrusher View Post
    Bummer sorry about all that. As a southern AZ resident I would often come up to Flagstaff trails and ride them with the understanding that the lines that I rode would be open and not blocked. Especially the more technical lines. I can only imagine riding a line down a trail that looked used only to come around a corner and have a log or pile of logs or rocks being there and relying on my skills to not OTB. Worse also communicating to those that are behind me to check up and not come plowing through.

    Too many variables too many assholes in the world.
    I presume the one that contacted you is also the same that posted this comment in a trail planning document in response to my request to add language regarding the placement of obstacles on trails to dissuade use is an illegal, unauthorized activity and due the same law enforcement and prosecution as illegal trail building. Frankly, these folks don't feel what they are doing is wrong and have no issue with civil disobedience if it furthers their objectives or suits their agenda.

    Expectations of Privacy when in public-medl-draft_20200311_crop.jpg

    Here's a screen shot of one many examples of letters we have obtained through FOIA. They use inflammatory rhetoric, fear, and misinformation to push their agenda. Either way, nobody in my town or associated with my advocacy organization is going after this person or engaging in social media bullying. What the community wanted by placing the cameras in the forest was to get alteration of trails to stop. And they largely have despite the lack of a prosecution, fine, or citation.

    Expectations of Privacy when in public-eb_2012-letter.jpg

    Yep, we all smoke and shuttle and are incapable of riding our bikes to the top in order to ride down. We can do better. Engaging in tit for tat is not productive either. Best thing to do is take the high road and engage with the land manager in a productive manner to ensure access and meet community needs. Some of that may be recreation-based and some actions might be protecting sensitive areas. But come to the table with good science and studies that back up your claims and stop altering trails.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    I read the article and don't see the problem
    Read this perspective:

    https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020...bike-ride.html

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by bingemtbr View Post
    Thank you, I had not heard about that mans experience, only that of the police officer wrongfully accused. At least he is okay. What is currently happening with Protests and the major clash of people is a very different thing than the trail sabatoge we are describing. I don't see anyone taking a trail cam shot with the face totally blacked out and starting a Doxing campaign against someone.

    In another note, I started this thread BEFORE former Officer Chauvin took the life of George Floyd while on camera. I am glad he was filmed and hope Justice is served for his heinous crime.

    I stand by my comments, Do not expect any sort of privacy when in public if you do something bad.

    In the end with the cyclist in Maryland, they found the right guy and hopefully justice is served there too.
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  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    That was a good read.

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    Coming across a rude mountain biker is pretty rare, possibly because when you meet them they're having a really good time. But use conflicts are still a real problem, and when it comes to our own behavior we tend to judge ourselves on our best days and other people on their worst.

    You may interact safely and courteously with other trail users 99 out of 100 times, but that one time in a hundred where you're out of control or don't see them in time will be what represents the sport in their mind. And dismissing *all* trail use conflict concerns holding up a ridiculous example is really doing the same thing.

    I think you can do what marketers do, and *segment* the other trail users. There are trail users who won't be happy until bikes are gone; you'll never change their mind, so you don't have to worry about what they think. On the other extreme are live-and-let-live people who are fine sharing the trail. All you have to do with them is keep them feeling that way. But where trail access and use conflict is a problem, I think you do have to pay attention to the concerns of people in the middle, who aren't convinced but are persuadable.

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