Eggbeater or Frog - bad knee- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1

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    Eggbeater or Frog - bad knee

    I poked around a little to see if this has been discussed directly before and couldn't find anything in previous threads. Forgive me if I'm beating a dead horse.

    I've been MTBing for close to 20 years and using clipless pedals for over half of that. I've never used anything but SPD designs our knockoffs. A year and half ago I tore my ACL and had it repaired. It's never been the same since, but that's another thread.

    My current pedals (old Ritchey WCS? TI) have been aggravating the knee quite a bit. Besides that they are pretty beat and I just don't think it's worth rebuilding them a third time. So I'm trying to figure out wghat to replace them with.

    I looking at CrankBro's Eggbeaters and Speedplay Frog's at this point. I just recently moved over to Speedplay X2's on the road bike and love them. So I was leaning towards the Frog's for the same freefloat concept. I've been reading lots of good stuff on the Eggbeaters though.

    I've seen some bad reviews on the new Frog cleat as well. I guess it is very different clip in technique then with SPD type. Also, since I ride in New England mostly now I'm a little concerned about the muck performance of the Frog's relative to the Eggbeater's which sound like they are pretty much the ultimate for Mud. I'm not worried about the small platform on the Eggbeaters since I never ride without being clipped in and my Sidi's (as you probably know) are plenty stiff. I wonder if there will be enough float in the Eggbeaters though. I don't want to end up with the same aggravation issues I have right now with the Ritchey's

    Any thought? thanks
    Last edited by Jdubya; 06-03-2004 at 06:26 AM. Reason: typo

  2. #2
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    Get the egg beaters. I love mine. Maybe not the same free-float as the Frogs but they more than make up for it in mud performance. And the 4-sided entry means I never have to deal with catching the pedal on a wrong angle..just stop and go.

  3. #3
    indigosky
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    I would say just the opposite

    I've used eggs, Time, and Frogs here in Maine. All of them work great in the mud. The Frogs definatly have a learning curve. I too have ridden clipless since forever, and I didn't like the frogs for about the first three weeks, but after that, I LOVED them. The are very easy on the knees, and do perform well in the slop and snow/ice. My only problem is that my set of Frogs was a long term loaner that I had to give back about a month ago , better start saving.

    P.S. I hated the eggs because when I smacked them on a rock or root they would eject my foot, and it's really fun to try and get your foot back in them when you are hauling a$$ down a trail.

  4. #4

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    Frogs are the way to go!

    I looking at CrankBro's Eggbeaters and Speedplay Frog's at this point. I just recently moved over to Speedplay X2's on the road bike and love them. So I was leaning towards the Frog's for the same freefloat concept. I've been reading lots of good stuff on the Eggbeaters though.

    Let me start by saying I feel both are great pedals and with either it is hard to go wrong. That said, go with the frogs. I have Sidi's as well and have been riding frogs for eight years. It is a great pedal novice to pro, I am a XC endurance racer but also do some trials in mine because I know when trouble comes they are an easy out. Mud is not much of an issue with the disc design, it self cleans whenever you engage. The new cleet has a little less float than the older one, at first I almost went back to the old cleet but now find the new one much more pleasing. It will still feel a lot better on the knee than SPD's.
    Cole

  5. #5
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    I would vote for the frogs too. Im thinking of getting them for my new bike im building up. Its either them or the eggbeaters, and I am seriously leaning towards the frog pedals.
    Herro prease

  6. #6
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    I've had one eject from my Eggs due to a rock impact. Really not that big of a deal. The ease at which you click in more than makes up for it IMO. Ever pop a foot out to scooter past/over an obstacle only to fight to get back in? I used to deal with that often prior to my Eggies. Though I have never ridden frogs so I cannot compare, only state experience with the eggs compared to SPD-based pedals.

  7. #7
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    My knees are pretty torn up too and I avoid pedals with excessive float because a bit of anchoring on the foot helps reinforce the knee. Have you had a pro set up your cleats so you know they're aligned right? That may be part of what's irritating your knees. A pro bike fit, setting saddle height, cleat alignment, etc, may help more than new pedals. Just 2 cents worth.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jdubya
    I poked around a little to see if this has been discussed directly before and couldn't find anything in previous threads. Forgive me if I'm beating a dead horse.

    I've been MTBing for close to 20 years and using clipless pedals for over half of that. I've never used anything but SPD designs our knockoffs. A year and half ago I tore my ACL and had it repaired. It's never been the same since, but that's another thread.

    My current pedals (old Ritchey WCS? TI) have been aggravating the knee quite a bit. Besides that they are pretty beat and I just don't think it's worth rebuilding them a third time. So I'm trying to figure out wghat to replace them with.

    I looking at CrankBro's Eggbeaters and Speedplay Frog's at this point. I just recently moved over to Speedplay X2's on the road bike and love them. So I was leaning towards the Frog's for the same freefloat concept. I've been reading lots of good stuff on the Eggbeaters though.

    I've seen some bad reviews on the new Frog cleat as well. I guess it is very different clip in technique then with SPD type. Also, since I ride in New England mostly now I'm a little concerned about the muck performance of the Frog's relative to the Eggbeater's which sound like they are pretty much the ultimate for Mud. I'm not worried about the small platform on the Eggbeaters since I never ride without being clipped in and my Sidi's (as you probably know) are plenty stiff. I wonder if there will be enough float in the Eggbeaters though. I don't want to end up with the same aggravation issues I have right now with the Ritchey's

    Any thought? thanks
    Take care of your knees and get the Frogs. There is no spring pressure for you and your ACL to overcome when unclipping. The Frogs have the most float and it is free float. It lets your foot / ankles / knees find their own alignment.

    The mud performance with the Frog isn't very good, but it's useable. Screw up your knees and you won't care much about mud performance

  9. #9

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    Minor Note on the Knee

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Shorts
    Take care of your knees and get the Frogs. There is no spring pressure for you and your ACL to overcome when unclipping. The Frogs have the most float and it is free float. It lets your foot / ankles / knees find their own alignment.

    The mud performance with the Frog isn't very good, but it's useable. Screw up your knees and you won't care much about mud performance

    The ACL really isn't the problem. As most who have had ACL reconstruction in the form of a Patella tendon graft the new ACL is actually stronger and more stable than the "natural" or original ACL. It's the Patella tendon that is the problem. They harvest the middle third of your Patella tendon to create the new ACL. This leaves many people with a weaker Patella tendon that is susceptible to tendonitis. This is my problem. If I'm slightly tweaked off angle my patella tendon will fatigue very easilly and start to ache.

    Based on my experince with the complete relief I got on the road bike with the X pedals I'm leaning towards the Frogs. Sounds like the clip in technique is pretty easy to master after a few rides and the mud capability is about on par with most pedals. After reading some of the shoe and cleat wear issues with the eggbeater I'm thinking the Frog is sounding better and better.

  10. #10
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    I've had two knee surgeries (ACL and meniscus) and am now using Crank Bros Mallet C's (the eggbeaters with platforms around them). Absolutely love them and my knees feel great. Plenty of float, easy to get in and out of, and mud and dirt are no longer issues.

  11. #11
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    Frogs

    I like the frogs because there is NO tension keeping you foot/knee pointing in a certain direction, it really is true free float.. My knees hurt to much to use spd's and atac's, never tried beaters but they look as tho they use spring tension, for me the frogs were great, although I prefer good platforms now, 0 knee pain that way.

  12. #12
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    I used Frogs for years because everything I heard about my knee surgeries (5 on the left knee alone) I needed more float and Frogs were the best in that regard. Now 4yrs after my last knee reconstruction, I find that my Time ATAC pedals give more stability and yes, with less float. My knee moved around too much with the Frogs but I stuck with them just because of what I heard I was supposed to need.
    I think everyone is different, and we all heal at different intervals. Finding out what works best can and should be a personal adventure.
    I have some titanium Frogs sitting in a drawer in my garage if someone wants to offer me anything for them, I'm sure we can make them yours...

  13. #13

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    Frogs

    I say go with the frogs....I been using them for about 7 yearswith no problems. As far as cliping in you just slide your foot forward, then step down.........simple. In mud and sand, sometimes it's hard to clip in...the cleat gets bunged up with stuff. I can't comment on the eggs never used them. Goodluck in your quest.

    Crusty

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by the pup
    I used Frogs for years because everything I heard about my knee surgeries (5 on the left knee alone) I needed more float and Frogs were the best in that regard. Now 4yrs after my last knee reconstruction, I find that my Time ATAC pedals give more stability and yes, with less float. My knee moved around too much with the Frogs but I stuck with them just because of what I heard I was supposed to need.
    I think everyone is different, and we all heal at different intervals. Finding out what works best can and should be a personal adventure.
    I have some titanium Frogs sitting in a drawer in my garage if someone wants to offer me anything for them, I'm sure we can make them yours...
    Wow the Time ATACS did the opposite for me, instantly hurt my knees, no matter how I set them up there was always pain, even more than SPD's, they almost seemed as tho they wanted my knee in one position only, pulling with slight tension if it left the one slot.

  15. #15
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    I use frogs on 2 bikes, mallets on the long travel bike....

    and after about 6 weeks with the mallets I definatly find my knees like the frogs a little better (but not a huge difference). My knees tend to have problems when I use pedals without enough float and I have never had issues with crank or time. Overall I am a hardcore frog user for XC (8th season on one set) and I find alot of people underate their mud performance (never had an issue with mud, only with snow, and was riding year round in new england till 1 year ago). I do believe they are the most knee freindly but there is a learning curve where your legs adapt the the totally free float of the pedal which some riders never adjust too. if possible, try to spend at least a week on each before purchasing to get a true idea about their performance (I found it takes at least 2-3 rides to fully adjust to a new pedal system, I hated the mallets until my third outing on them(mostly due to having to get the correct cleat position) While I'm spouting off my pedal opinions, I dont like eggbeaters (to minimalist) really like both mallets and candys, really like atacs and Z's, can't stand shimano or the various wellgo made pedals (ritchey, bonti, old specialized, most store brands) but frogs are still my favorite
    Help control the pet population, have you pets spayed and neutered

  16. #16
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    TIme ATAC did it for me...

    have reconstructed ACL in my left knee... With Time ATAC pedals, i have no problems whatsoever... easy to clip in and easy to clip out WHEN YOU NEED IT...



    Quote Originally Posted by Jdubya
    I poked around a little to see if this has been discussed directly before and couldn't find anything in previous threads. Forgive me if I'm beating a dead horse.

    I've been MTBing for close to 20 years and using clipless pedals for over half of that. I've never used anything but SPD designs our knockoffs. A year and half ago I tore my ACL and had it repaired. It's never been the same since, but that's another thread.

    My current pedals (old Ritchey WCS? TI) have been aggravating the knee quite a bit. Besides that they are pretty beat and I just don't think it's worth rebuilding them a third time. So I'm trying to figure out wghat to replace them with.

    I looking at CrankBro's Eggbeaters and Speedplay Frog's at this point. I just recently moved over to Speedplay X2's on the road bike and love them. So I was leaning towards the Frog's for the same freefloat concept. I've been reading lots of good stuff on the Eggbeaters though.

    I've seen some bad reviews on the new Frog cleat as well. I guess it is very different clip in technique then with SPD type. Also, since I ride in New England mostly now I'm a little concerned about the muck performance of the Frog's relative to the Eggbeater's which sound like they are pretty much the ultimate for Mud. I'm not worried about the small platform on the Eggbeaters since I never ride without being clipped in and my Sidi's (as you probably know) are plenty stiff. I wonder if there will be enough float in the Eggbeaters though. I don't want to end up with the same aggravation issues I have right now with the Ritchey's

    Any thought? thanks

  17. #17

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    I don't have knee problems per se, but at my age (46), and...

    ...the kind of riding I like best (long distance alpine epics, with lots of climbing), I found even the Shimano 747s, with 8 degrees of float (much of it having a non centering feel), was not enough to keep my knees from feeling the feedback of the springs.

    I considered the Egg Beaters like you, but after remembering the way the ATACs I owned felt like (pre 747s), I really didn't want to be feeling parallel sprung retaining bars of ANY kind.

    I went with the Frogs, and though the bike they're on hasn't quite arrived yet (only 2 more days, YIPPEE!), I did demo them in store on a trainer once, just to see if I could handle the way they clip in, float, and release, under ideal circumstances.

    I did some digging as well, on why the bad reviews on the new cleat, which if anything, looks less likely to break, and easier to fit in your shoe's cleat pocket, as well as being stainless, which resists rust well, and slides pretty smooth.

    What seems to be going on, is that Speedplay designed them to have less slop in them, so the set screw (which replaces the cam, the old ones had), is dialed in a bit closer than the cam was, to allow for break in. I have a feeling this, rather than the elastomer sprung click in tab, is the cause of a bit of finickiness in mud, when the extra mass of the dirt, makes the tolerances extremely tight.

    Keep in mind, this is a set screw people, it can be adjusted, it just has to be heated first, as it is held in place with red thread locker.

    I did see a friend's aftermath of a crash on some rocks, where his Frogs cracked, although he said he was doing something he shouldn't have. Someone had some electrical tape, which held it for the 5 or so miles on relatively mild singletrack we had to go. Some carry pedal bodies just in case.

    I have opted to wrap two 1' lengths of fiber reinforced strapping tape around the barrel of my pump, as part of my tool kit, along with a single edged razor blade I keep in my patch kit box.

    I like the smooth feel of the needle bearing construction, but if you take them completely apart, you have to reseal the edges where the pedal bodies meet with RTV. Regular grease injecting (another cool feature), helps greatly prolong their life though.
    Last edited by Gnarlygig; 06-07-2004 at 04:00 AM.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jdubya
    I poked around a little to see if this has been discussed directly before and couldn't find anything in previous threads. Forgive me if I'm beating a dead horse.

    I've been MTBing for close to 20 years and using clipless pedals for over half of that. I've never used anything but SPD designs our knockoffs. A year and half ago I tore my ACL and had it repaired. It's never been the same since, but that's another thread.

    My current pedals (old Ritchey WCS? TI) have been aggravating the knee quite a bit. Besides that they are pretty beat and I just don't think it's worth rebuilding them a third time. So I'm trying to figure out wghat to replace them with.

    I looking at CrankBro's Eggbeaters and Speedplay Frog's at this point. I just recently moved over to Speedplay X2's on the road bike and love them. So I was leaning towards the Frog's for the same freefloat concept. I've been reading lots of good stuff on the Eggbeaters though.

    I've seen some bad reviews on the new Frog cleat as well. I guess it is very different clip in technique then with SPD type. Also, since I ride in New England mostly now I'm a little concerned about the muck performance of the Frog's relative to the Eggbeater's which sound like they are pretty much the ultimate for Mud. I'm not worried about the small platform on the Eggbeaters since I never ride without being clipped in and my Sidi's (as you probably know) are plenty stiff. I wonder if there will be enough float in the Eggbeaters though. I don't want to end up with the same aggravation issues I have right now with the Ritchey's

    Any thought? thanks


    I have had eggbeaters and beebops (similar to frogs) and for bad knees I would definitely get the beebops or frogs. They have free float. Eggbeaters do not. Eggbeaters only have side to side float. They really have no rotational free float. Sure you can twist your foot a few degrees without unclipping, but the spring tension is always recentering your foot. With Beebops or Frogs your foot is rotationally in the position that you want it to be in with no tension trying to recenter your foot (rotationally).
    Last edited by lemmy999; 06-10-2004 at 09:19 AM.

  19. #19
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    Good job! Another suggestion for the Frogs

    First, I have two sets on bikes, one pre-frog-Frog that's butterscotch in color (but not a "magnum") and a brand new set of black ones. They are great for knees, engage well in mud, are very easy to kick out when needed or when tumbling down a slope and I have bashed them on rocks at speed without damage (the old ones, at least). The grease injection ports allow simple maintenance...my first set of bearings lasted ten years of water crossings, mud and dust.

    Second, the Eggbeaters are trendy, but Lemmy hit it: they DON'T have free rotational float like a Frog, because of the spring tension. I tried some, I got sore after 17 miles of singletrack. They do have a more "secure/clipped in" feeling than the Frogs, but I'm very used to the SpeedPlays. I expect and remember that the Frogs do take some learning and smoothing to get used to. If you flail your legs around in a fast spin, you'll click out, so you learn not to spaz...

  20. #20
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    Float is only one of many factors regarding knee problems...

    Pedal float is only one of many mitigating factors that effect (promote or decrease) damaging stress at the knee. As has been noted in many of the threads above, the use of identical pedals for different individuals has demonstrated varied and often opposite results and contradictory feedback from users. It is important to also understand the other factors that contribute to degenerative stress at the knee.

    When cycling (or during walking or running while the foot is in contact with the ground) the lower limbs form a closed kinetic chain, which must manage the forces coming up through the sole of the foot, the forces generated by the weight of the body, and the forces generated by the muscular energy expended during locomotion. These collective forces can stress the lower limb kinetic chain either positively or negatively. Positive stress promotes a balance of strength and flexibility in opposing muscle groups, optimal alignment at the joints, and the most efficient management of the forces (energy) generated/expended. Negative stress promotes an imbalance of strength and flexibility in opposing muscle groups, poor alignment at the joints, and a less efficient management of the forces (energy) generated/expended. These forces also contribute to the relative strength and shape of the bones with the positive stresses resulting in stronger bones and negative forces resulting in weaker bones as well as stress related growths (spurs, bunions, etc.). Pathologies typically manifest at the weakest link in the lower limb kinetic chain.

    The feet play the most significant role in the lower limbs’ management of these forces by providing a ground interface platform during walking, running, etc. (“dynamic” heel toe off activities) and a pedal interface platform (“static” locked-in-place gait activity). The foot’s (platform’s) structural integrity determines the relative alignment of the bones and joints, which in turn has a corresponding impact on muscle function.

    When bones and joints are optimally aligned, muscle “energy” is most efficient with minimal energy expended towards maintaining alignment, allowing the greatest amount of energy available for locomotion. Not only is there more energy available for locomotion, the optimally aligned structure is also synergistically more efficient, therefore, the energy is applied more directly to the activity performed––resulting in optimal performance, positive stresses, and a reduced risk of injury. When bones and joints are poorly aligned, the muscles must compensate by expending a greater amount of energy in an attempt to maintain alignment and correspondingly reducing the energy available for locomotion. The poorly aligned structure is also significantly less efficient which, when combined with the reduced energy available for locomotion, significantly reduces performance levels while increasing negative stresses and risk of injury.

    Aside from trauma, most kinetic chain problems i.e., knee problems are caused by repetitive movement in combination with poor musculoskeletal mechanics resulting from an unstable foot/platform. Chronic problems arise over time while acute symptoms manifest with sudden increases of activity levels. In either case, excessive stress (tension or pressure) is generated on, or at, a specific tendon(s), cartilage or ligament(s) and is caused by poor alignment, resulting from, and/or imbalanced muscle use. Poor structural mechanics of the foot’s arch system (flat foot or collapsing arch) can also, upon weight-bearing, cause the leg to rotate medially (to the inside) which increases the stress on the inside of the knee, as well changes the tracking pattern of the patella (knee cap).

    Cycling typically involves greater effort from the quad (thigh) muscles than the hamstrings and can result in an imbalanced tension, between the two muscle groups, at the knee. This imbalance is exacerbated by an unstable foot/platform and the repetitive movement dictated by footwear and relative position of the foot on the pedal. Changing the relative foot position on the pedal (by changing pedals, i.e., more or less float) may change the dynamics of the kinetic chain and the problem (pain) seems to disappear. The unstable structural dynamic of foot remains unchanged however, and over time, the repetitive movement in the new kinetic chain dynamic will often manifest in negative stress at a different location (i.e., the pain moves from one side of the knee to the other, or from the front to the back, etc.).

    The negative stresses generated often result in micro tears in the soft tissue (muscle, tendons, etc.) particularly around the joints and at the soft insertion points (where they connect with the bone). These micro tears build up over time into a thickening scar tissue, decreasing flexibility and increasing the imbalanced tension in the muscle and around the related joint. Areas that have been surgically repaired are particularly susceptible to micro tears. This is because, in most instances, post surgery scar tissue is not addressed during the rehab phase (other than stretching). Following knee surgery, the internal scar tissue that develops progressively thickens over time with increased activity and prevents the knee from functioning properly resulting in increased, stress and pain. Sometimes, additional surgeries are performed to address the scar tissue build up.

    The good news is that there are effective ways treat the scar tissue without additional surgery, however it is also important to address the cause of the problems and prevent lower limb kinetic chain negative stresses in the first place. And you can still ride and/or enjoy other activities throughout the process.
    Find a knowledgeable sports physiotherapist, chiropractor, or medical professional to work with you. They should be able to feel the scar tissue under the skin (lumpiness). A series of ultrasound treatments will breakdown the scar tissue. A combination of electro-stimulation and regular icing helps will help with pain, decease swelling, and increase blood flow to the area, promoting healing. I would suggest starting with 3 treatments per week for three weeks, then 2 per week for another three, followed by 1 per week for a few weeks.

    The feet are naturally capable of providing a strong stable platform, but in most instances we have trained them inadvertently to function improperly. How have we done this you ask? Why simply by wearing shoes. Not just high heeled nose pickers either; even highly touted supportive and cushioning shoes result in your feet becoming weaker and unstable. In fact, contrary to all the marketing hype, supportive and cushion footwear have the most debilitating effect on optimal foot function. Virtually all shoes have the same effect on the feet, as a cast has on any other part of the body, and their use results in muscle atrophy, loss of bone mass, and joint stiffness.

    The truth of the matter is that the sole of your feet have the same type and density of nueroreceptors that you have in your hand, called mechanoreceptors. These mechanoreceptors are stimulated by tactile skin contact and result in involuntary reflex-like muscle contractions, often called a bio-feedback response. For example in your hand they tell your muscles how much pressure to exert when you are holding a pen or glass of water, or swinging a hammer. In your feet they pick up sensory input from the ground as you walk, or run, etc. and tell the muscles how much they have to contract to align the bones of the foot and ankle to most effectively manage the forces generated relative to the activity level. The muscles naturally stimulated in this process cause the “Windlass Effect”, the raising of the toes in combination with the raising and stabilizing of the foot’s arch system.

    Cushioning shoes and insoles dampen or inhibit the stimulus required to generate the bio-feedback response necessary to stabilize the foot. In addition, footwear that inhibits the raising of the great toe (shallow toe boxes and or stiff soles) or the raising of the arch (too tight lacing, loafers, etc.) prevents the formation of the Windlass Effect. In all instances lower limb kinetic chain negative stresses are generated and various symptoms manifest in the feet, ankles, shins, knees, hips, etc. Footwear may feel loose and the feet unstable, and many individuals tighten their shoes or use supportive products to stop this movement. Unfortunately, this results in a further inhibiting of the Windlass Effect, an increased dependency on the artificial support, and an increased risk of injury.

    What is important to note is that, long-term support or bracing is not the recommended treatment of choice in any other area of musculoskeletal medicine.

    Fortunately, new technology is available that stimulates the feet mechanoreceptors while using footwear and retrains proper foot function. For more information on this technology and the supporting science, go to http://www.barefootscience.net/footc...s/a_cover.html
    While use of this new technology is more applicable to dynamic activities (walking, running, etc.) the resulting healthier foot mechanics have crossover benefits during static activities (cycling, skating, skiing, etc.) in reducing negative stress, increase athletic performance and a reduced risk of injury.

    Specifically for cycling, optimal performance and injury prevention is achievable by following the guidelines below:

    1) Retrain optimal foot function, as noted above.

    2) Make sure the feet provide a stable platform inside your cycling shoes. Persons with flat feet or collapsing arches should try using one of the customizable footbeds made for ski boots. Making sure they are made (sanded) as thin as possible to fit into cycling shoes. Orthotics are unnecessary and typically, too bulky (thick) and too costly.

    3) Once the feet are stable, use a cycling shoe with a lot of toe spring (with the heel flat on the ground the toe rises), the higher the better. This helps the bones achieve optimal alignment and stability, the Windlass Effect. Also don’t tighten the laces or Velcro straps too tightly as this causes the arch to collapse and results in a weaker less stable structure. A good rule of thumb is to raise the big toe as high as possible (which raises your arch) and snug laces or Velcro straps to that point. This allows the bones of the foot to align naturally to the forces involved while pedaling and dramatically reduces the repetitive stresses at the knee.

    4) Try to use a clipless pedal with a moderate degree of float. This will also help reduce any repetitive strain caused by having your feet locked into one position.

    5) For persons who do a lot cycling it is also important that they balance the tension between the quads and hamstrings, i.e. increase their hamstring activity. Hamstring curls at the gym is a great exercise. A great at home exercise is to take an old inner tube and hook it under the leg of the sofa (or something heavy), and hook the other end around the heel, while sitting in a chair or on something stable, and far enough away from the sofa to tension the inner tube with the leg extended. Then simply pull the heel toward the body with the foot an inch or so off the ground, then slowly extend the leg fully, repeating until failure (you can’t pull anymore) rest a minute or so and repeat again until failure two or three more times.

    By applying some or all these suggestions you can safely continue riding. I hope this helps.

  21. #21
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    Idea! The Readers Digest Version

    [QUOTE=i1dry]Pasted Tome[QUOTE]

    Summarized and Corrected Version:

    Although a free-floating pedal will not address medial rotation of the foot (which you might treat with a footbed insert, for example), it will enable the rider to eliminate stress on the knee caused by the pedal forcing the foot into one, or a limited range of, position during the rotation of the cranks. That's why SpeedPlay users like them: there's a wide range of rotational float that allows one to eliminate a common source of irritation to cyclists' knees.



  22. #22
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    holly $hit, there goes my morning large coffee...

    great read!! thanks for taking time to shed some light on this ever interesting topic...


    Quote Originally Posted by i1dry
    Pedal float is only one of many mitigating factors that effect (promote or decrease) damaging stress at the knee. As has been noted in many of the threads above, the use of identical pedals for different individuals has demonstrated varied and often opposite results and contradictory feedback from users. It is important to also understand the other factors that contribute to degenerative stress at the knee.

    When cycling (or during walking or running while the foot is in contact with the ground) the lower limbs form a closed kinetic chain, which must manage the forces coming up through the sole of the foot, the forces generated by the weight of the body, and the forces generated by the muscular energy expended during locomotion. These collective forces can stress the lower limb kinetic chain either positively or negatively. Positive stress promotes a balance of strength and flexibility in opposing muscle groups, optimal alignment at the joints, and the most efficient management of the forces (energy) generated/expended. Negative stress promotes an imbalance of strength and flexibility in opposing muscle groups, poor alignment at the joints, and a less efficient management of the forces (energy) generated/expended. These forces also contribute to the relative strength and shape of the bones with the positive stresses resulting in stronger bones and negative forces resulting in weaker bones as well as stress related growths (spurs, bunions, etc.). Pathologies typically manifest at the weakest link in the lower limb kinetic chain.

    The feet play the most significant role in the lower limbs’ management of these forces by providing a ground interface platform during walking, running, etc. (“dynamic” heel toe off activities) and a pedal interface platform (“static” locked-in-place gait activity). The foot’s (platform’s) structural integrity determines the relative alignment of the bones and joints, which in turn has a corresponding impact on muscle function.

    When bones and joints are optimally aligned, muscle “energy” is most efficient with minimal energy expended towards maintaining alignment, allowing the greatest amount of energy available for locomotion. Not only is there more energy available for locomotion, the optimally aligned structure is also synergistically more efficient, therefore, the energy is applied more directly to the activity performed––resulting in optimal performance, positive stresses, and a reduced risk of injury. When bones and joints are poorly aligned, the muscles must compensate by expending a greater amount of energy in an attempt to maintain alignment and correspondingly reducing the energy available for locomotion. The poorly aligned structure is also significantly less efficient which, when combined with the reduced energy available for locomotion, significantly reduces performance levels while increasing negative stresses and risk of injury.

    Aside from trauma, most kinetic chain problems i.e., knee problems are caused by repetitive movement in combination with poor musculoskeletal mechanics resulting from an unstable foot/platform. Chronic problems arise over time while acute symptoms manifest with sudden increases of activity levels. In either case, excessive stress (tension or pressure) is generated on, or at, a specific tendon(s), cartilage or ligament(s) and is caused by poor alignment, resulting from, and/or imbalanced muscle use. Poor structural mechanics of the foot’s arch system (flat foot or collapsing arch) can also, upon weight-bearing, cause the leg to rotate medially (to the inside) which increases the stress on the inside of the knee, as well changes the tracking pattern of the patella (knee cap).

    Cycling typically involves greater effort from the quad (thigh) muscles than the hamstrings and can result in an imbalanced tension, between the two muscle groups, at the knee. This imbalance is exacerbated by an unstable foot/platform and the repetitive movement dictated by footwear and relative position of the foot on the pedal. Changing the relative foot position on the pedal (by changing pedals, i.e., more or less float) may change the dynamics of the kinetic chain and the problem (pain) seems to disappear. The unstable structural dynamic of foot remains unchanged however, and over time, the repetitive movement in the new kinetic chain dynamic will often manifest in negative stress at a different location (i.e., the pain moves from one side of the knee to the other, or from the front to the back, etc.).

    The negative stresses generated often result in micro tears in the soft tissue (muscle, tendons, etc.) particularly around the joints and at the soft insertion points (where they connect with the bone). These micro tears build up over time into a thickening scar tissue, decreasing flexibility and increasing the imbalanced tension in the muscle and around the related joint. Areas that have been surgically repaired are particularly susceptible to micro tears. This is because, in most instances, post surgery scar tissue is not addressed during the rehab phase (other than stretching). Following knee surgery, the internal scar tissue that develops progressively thickens over time with increased activity and prevents the knee from functioning properly resulting in increased, stress and pain. Sometimes, additional surgeries are performed to address the scar tissue build up.

    The good news is that there are effective ways treat the scar tissue without additional surgery, however it is also important to address the cause of the problems and prevent lower limb kinetic chain negative stresses in the first place. And you can still ride and/or enjoy other activities throughout the process.
    Find a knowledgeable sports physiotherapist, chiropractor, or medical professional to work with you. They should be able to feel the scar tissue under the skin (lumpiness). A series of ultrasound treatments will breakdown the scar tissue. A combination of electro-stimulation and regular icing helps will help with pain, decease swelling, and increase blood flow to the area, promoting healing. I would suggest starting with 3 treatments per week for three weeks, then 2 per week for another three, followed by 1 per week for a few weeks.

    The feet are naturally capable of providing a strong stable platform, but in most instances we have trained them inadvertently to function improperly. How have we done this you ask? Why simply by wearing shoes. Not just high heeled nose pickers either; even highly touted supportive and cushioning shoes result in your feet becoming weaker and unstable. In fact, contrary to all the marketing hype, supportive and cushion footwear have the most debilitating effect on optimal foot function. Virtually all shoes have the same effect on the feet, as a cast has on any other part of the body, and their use results in muscle atrophy, loss of bone mass, and joint stiffness.

    The truth of the matter is that the sole of your feet have the same type and density of nueroreceptors that you have in your hand, called mechanoreceptors. These mechanoreceptors are stimulated by tactile skin contact and result in involuntary reflex-like muscle contractions, often called a bio-feedback response. For example in your hand they tell your muscles how much pressure to exert when you are holding a pen or glass of water, or swinging a hammer. In your feet they pick up sensory input from the ground as you walk, or run, etc. and tell the muscles how much they have to contract to align the bones of the foot and ankle to most effectively manage the forces generated relative to the activity level. The muscles naturally stimulated in this process cause the “Windlass Effect”, the raising of the toes in combination with the raising and stabilizing of the foot’s arch system.

    Cushioning shoes and insoles dampen or inhibit the stimulus required to generate the bio-feedback response necessary to stabilize the foot. In addition, footwear that inhibits the raising of the great toe (shallow toe boxes and or stiff soles) or the raising of the arch (too tight lacing, loafers, etc.) prevents the formation of the Windlass Effect. In all instances lower limb kinetic chain negative stresses are generated and various symptoms manifest in the feet, ankles, shins, knees, hips, etc. Footwear may feel loose and the feet unstable, and many individuals tighten their shoes or use supportive products to stop this movement. Unfortunately, this results in a further inhibiting of the Windlass Effect, an increased dependency on the artificial support, and an increased risk of injury.

    What is important to note is that, long-term support or bracing is not the recommended treatment of choice in any other area of musculoskeletal medicine.

    Fortunately, new technology is available that stimulates the feet mechanoreceptors while using footwear and retrains proper foot function. For more information on this technology and the supporting science, go to http://www.barefootscience.net/footc...s/a_cover.html
    While use of this new technology is more applicable to dynamic activities (walking, running, etc.) the resulting healthier foot mechanics have crossover benefits during static activities (cycling, skating, skiing, etc.) in reducing negative stress, increase athletic performance and a reduced risk of injury.

    Specifically for cycling, optimal performance and injury prevention is achievable by following the guidelines below:

    1) Retrain optimal foot function, as noted above.

    2) Make sure the feet provide a stable platform inside your cycling shoes. Persons with flat feet or collapsing arches should try using one of the customizable footbeds made for ski boots. Making sure they are made (sanded) as thin as possible to fit into cycling shoes. Orthotics are unnecessary and typically, too bulky (thick) and too costly.

    3) Once the feet are stable, use a cycling shoe with a lot of toe spring (with the heel flat on the ground the toe rises), the higher the better. This helps the bones achieve optimal alignment and stability, the Windlass Effect. Also don’t tighten the laces or Velcro straps too tightly as this causes the arch to collapse and results in a weaker less stable structure. A good rule of thumb is to raise the big toe as high as possible (which raises your arch) and snug laces or Velcro straps to that point. This allows the bones of the foot to align naturally to the forces involved while pedaling and dramatically reduces the repetitive stresses at the knee.

    4) Try to use a clipless pedal with a moderate degree of float. This will also help reduce any repetitive strain caused by having your feet locked into one position.

    5) For persons who do a lot cycling it is also important that they balance the tension between the quads and hamstrings, i.e. increase their hamstring activity. Hamstring curls at the gym is a great exercise. A great at home exercise is to take an old inner tube and hook it under the leg of the sofa (or something heavy), and hook the other end around the heel, while sitting in a chair or on something stable, and far enough away from the sofa to tension the inner tube with the leg extended. Then simply pull the heel toward the body with the foot an inch or so off the ground, then slowly extend the leg fully, repeating until failure (you can’t pull anymore) rest a minute or so and repeat again until failure two or three more times.

    By applying some or all these suggestions you can safely continue riding. I hope this helps.

  23. #23

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    Mar 2006
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    9
    Hello everyone,

    For touring i consider the Eggbeater Mallet C, or the Frog pedals. But are both compatible with Shimano MT90 shoes (see the image)?

    Greetz from Holland, Marco


  24. #24

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    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by i1dry
    Pedal float is only one of many mitigating factors that effect (promote or decrease) damaging stress at the knee. As has been noted in many of the threads above, the use of identical pedals for different individuals has demonstrated varied and often opposite results and contradictory feedback from users. It is important to also understand the other factors that contribute to degenerative stress at the knee.

    When cycling (or during walking or running while the foot is in contact with the ground) the lower limbs form a closed kinetic chain, which must manage the forces coming up through the sole of the foot, the forces generated by the weight of the body, and the forces generated by the muscular energy expended during locomotion. These collective forces can stress the lower limb kinetic chain either positively or negatively. Positive stress promotes a balance of strength and flexibility in opposing muscle groups, optimal alignment at the joints, and the most efficient management of the forces (energy) generated/expended. Negative stress promotes an imbalance of strength and flexibility in opposing muscle groups, poor alignment at the joints, and a less efficient management of the forces (energy) generated/expended. These forces also contribute to the relative strength and shape of the bones with the positive stresses resulting in stronger bones and negative forces resulting in weaker bones as well as stress related growths (spurs, bunions, etc.). Pathologies typically manifest at the weakest link in the lower limb kinetic chain.

    The feet play the most significant role in the lower limbs’ management of these forces by providing a ground interface platform during walking, running, etc. (“dynamic” heel toe off activities) and a pedal interface platform (“static” locked-in-place gait activity). The foot’s (platform’s) structural integrity determines the relative alignment of the bones and joints, which in turn has a corresponding impact on muscle function.

    When bones and joints are optimally aligned, muscle “energy” is most efficient with minimal energy expended towards maintaining alignment, allowing the greatest amount of energy available for locomotion. Not only is there more energy available for locomotion, the optimally aligned structure is also synergistically more efficient, therefore, the energy is applied more directly to the activity performed––resulting in optimal performance, positive stresses, and a reduced risk of injury. When bones and joints are poorly aligned, the muscles must compensate by expending a greater amount of energy in an attempt to maintain alignment and correspondingly reducing the energy available for locomotion. The poorly aligned structure is also significantly less efficient which, when combined with the reduced energy available for locomotion, significantly reduces performance levels while increasing negative stresses and risk of injury.

    Aside from trauma, most kinetic chain problems i.e., knee problems are caused by repetitive movement in combination with poor musculoskeletal mechanics resulting from an unstable foot/platform. Chronic problems arise over time while acute symptoms manifest with sudden increases of activity levels. In either case, excessive stress (tension or pressure) is generated on, or at, a specific tendon(s), cartilage or ligament(s) and is caused by poor alignment, resulting from, and/or imbalanced muscle use. Poor structural mechanics of the foot’s arch system (flat foot or collapsing arch) can also, upon weight-bearing, cause the leg to rotate medially (to the inside) which increases the stress on the inside of the knee, as well changes the tracking pattern of the patella (knee cap).

    Cycling typically involves greater effort from the quad (thigh) muscles than the hamstrings and can result in an imbalanced tension, between the two muscle groups, at the knee. This imbalance is exacerbated by an unstable foot/platform and the repetitive movement dictated by footwear and relative position of the foot on the pedal. Changing the relative foot position on the pedal (by changing pedals, i.e., more or less float) may change the dynamics of the kinetic chain and the problem (pain) seems to disappear. The unstable structural dynamic of foot remains unchanged however, and over time, the repetitive movement in the new kinetic chain dynamic will often manifest in negative stress at a different location (i.e., the pain moves from one side of the knee to the other, or from the front to the back, etc.).

    The negative stresses generated often result in micro tears in the soft tissue (muscle, tendons, etc.) particularly around the joints and at the soft insertion points (where they connect with the bone). These micro tears build up over time into a thickening scar tissue, decreasing flexibility and increasing the imbalanced tension in the muscle and around the related joint. Areas that have been surgically repaired are particularly susceptible to micro tears. This is because, in most instances, post surgery scar tissue is not addressed during the rehab phase (other than stretching). Following knee surgery, the internal scar tissue that develops progressively thickens over time with increased activity and prevents the knee from functioning properly resulting in increased, stress and pain. Sometimes, additional surgeries are performed to address the scar tissue build up.

    The good news is that there are effective ways treat the scar tissue without additional surgery, however it is also important to address the cause of the problems and prevent lower limb kinetic chain negative stresses in the first place. And you can still ride and/or enjoy other activities throughout the process.
    Find a knowledgeable sports physiotherapist, chiropractor, or medical professional to work with you. They should be able to feel the scar tissue under the skin (lumpiness). A series of ultrasound treatments will breakdown the scar tissue. A combination of electro-stimulation and regular icing helps will help with pain, decease swelling, and increase blood flow to the area, promoting healing. I would suggest starting with 3 treatments per week for three weeks, then 2 per week for another three, followed by 1 per week for a few weeks.

    The feet are naturally capable of providing a strong stable platform, but in most instances we have trained them inadvertently to function improperly. How have we done this you ask? Why simply by wearing shoes. Not just high heeled nose pickers either; even highly touted supportive and cushioning shoes result in your feet becoming weaker and unstable. In fact, contrary to all the marketing hype, supportive and cushion footwear have the most debilitating effect on optimal foot function. Virtually all shoes have the same effect on the feet, as a cast has on any other part of the body, and their use results in muscle atrophy, loss of bone mass, and joint stiffness.

    The truth of the matter is that the sole of your feet have the same type and density of nueroreceptors that you have in your hand, called mechanoreceptors. These mechanoreceptors are stimulated by tactile skin contact and result in involuntary reflex-like muscle contractions, often called a bio-feedback response. For example in your hand they tell your muscles how much pressure to exert when you are holding a pen or glass of water, or swinging a hammer. In your feet they pick up sensory input from the ground as you walk, or run, etc. and tell the muscles how much they have to contract to align the bones of the foot and ankle to most effectively manage the forces generated relative to the activity level. The muscles naturally stimulated in this process cause the “Windlass Effect”, the raising of the toes in combination with the raising and stabilizing of the foot’s arch system.

    Cushioning shoes and insoles dampen or inhibit the stimulus required to generate the bio-feedback response necessary to stabilize the foot. In addition, footwear that inhibits the raising of the great toe (shallow toe boxes and or stiff soles) or the raising of the arch (too tight lacing, loafers, etc.) prevents the formation of the Windlass Effect. In all instances lower limb kinetic chain negative stresses are generated and various symptoms manifest in the feet, ankles, shins, knees, hips, etc. Footwear may feel loose and the feet unstable, and many individuals tighten their shoes or use supportive products to stop this movement. Unfortunately, this results in a further inhibiting of the Windlass Effect, an increased dependency on the artificial support, and an increased risk of injury.

    What is important to note is that, long-term support or bracing is not the recommended treatment of choice in any other area of musculoskeletal medicine.

    Fortunately, new technology is available that stimulates the feet mechanoreceptors while using footwear and retrains proper foot function. For more information on this technology and the supporting science, go to http://www.barefootscience.net/footc...s/a_cover.html
    While use of this new technology is more applicable to dynamic activities (walking, running, etc.) the resulting healthier foot mechanics have crossover benefits during static activities (cycling, skating, skiing, etc.) in reducing negative stress, increase athletic performance and a reduced risk of injury.

    Specifically for cycling, optimal performance and injury prevention is achievable by following the guidelines below:

    1) Retrain optimal foot function, as noted above.

    2) Make sure the feet provide a stable platform inside your cycling shoes. Persons with flat feet or collapsing arches should try using one of the customizable footbeds made for ski boots. Making sure they are made (sanded) as thin as possible to fit into cycling shoes. Orthotics are unnecessary and typically, too bulky (thick) and too costly.

    3) Once the feet are stable, use a cycling shoe with a lot of toe spring (with the heel flat on the ground the toe rises), the higher the better. This helps the bones achieve optimal alignment and stability, the Windlass Effect. Also don’t tighten the laces or Velcro straps too tightly as this causes the arch to collapse and results in a weaker less stable structure. A good rule of thumb is to raise the big toe as high as possible (which raises your arch) and snug laces or Velcro straps to that point. This allows the bones of the foot to align naturally to the forces involved while pedaling and dramatically reduces the repetitive stresses at the knee.

    4) Try to use a clipless pedal with a moderate degree of float. This will also help reduce any repetitive strain caused by having your feet locked into one position.

    5) For persons who do a lot cycling it is also important that they balance the tension between the quads and hamstrings, i.e. increase their hamstring activity. Hamstring curls at the gym is a great exercise. A great at home exercise is to take an old inner tube and hook it under the leg of the sofa (or something heavy), and hook the other end around the heel, while sitting in a chair or on something stable, and far enough away from the sofa to tension the inner tube with the leg extended. Then simply pull the heel toward the body with the foot an inch or so off the ground, then slowly extend the leg fully, repeating until failure (you can’t pull anymore) rest a minute or so and repeat again until failure two or three more times.

    By applying some or all these suggestions you can safely continue riding. I hope this helps.
    Sweet jesus christ. Did you write that all yourself? That's... an awesome amount of knowledge.

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