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  1. #1
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    E-Bikes & Strava controversy hits WSJ


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    Reads like a bit of teenage drama.

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    Haw haw! Put the blame where it belongs -- on Stravaddicts.

    Ride whatever you want and save the KOMs and such for race courses.
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    Quote Originally Posted by toadmeister View Post
    Reads like a bit of teenage drama.
    does it involve vampires?

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    This just reaffirms my thoughts about electric bikes, the bikes themselves are fine but some of the people riding them are truly @ssholes.
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    I never will understand why someone enjoys getting a victory by cheating. How does that give any satisfaction at all? How can they possibly justify that in their minds as any type of accomplishment? I guess "seeing their name lights" is enough for them without any true meaning to it?

    I have a competitive streak but virtual racing doesn't have much appeal to me. I'm not on Strava, though I'm thinking about joining just for better tracking of my rides. Though I'm faster than average, I think I'd be disappointed if I see where I rank in regards to "racing", etc. And I don't want the drive to rank higher to take away from my cycling experiences; I like going hard at times but I also enjoy riding more relaxed at times; all in the same ride.
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    I read the article, donít use Strava, donít own an e-bike, either.

    Win win.




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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    This just reaffirms my thoughts about electric bikes, the bikes themselves are fine but some of the people riding them are truly @ssholes.
    True. And the same can be said for human powered bikes.

    I'll stand by my reply to another thread on the same subject in the NorCal forum:
    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus View Post
    "Comparison is the thief of Joy."
    -Theodore Roosevelt

    The problem isn't the e-biker, the problem is the Strava user who isn't satisfied with his or her own performance without comparing themselves to others via a smartphone app.
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    I love strava, turn it on even when I ride around with my dog. I just love stats. I don't care who is faster than me, or what they are riding. I ride from home a lot and usually make those rides private only for me to see, not that anyone follows me on strava but I don't need to advertise where I live. Its a great tool, its free, it enhances my biking experience, and sure, its fun to see your name high on the leaderboard when it happens.

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    Nat
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    The root of the problem is in letting someone elseís ride, especially a virtual ride, have an effect on your spirit.

    If you had what you thought was an awesome ride then suddenly felt defeated the moment you found out someone else rode faster then thatís silly. You just negated your own real experience because of a stupid data point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus View Post
    True. And the same can be said for human powered bikes.

    I'll stand by my reply to another thread on the same subject in the NorCal forum:
    +1 I have no need for Strava as I do not compare my riding times to anyone else, or even against my own times. I ride as fast as I want, as long as I want. I ride to have fun. When I get to the point I cannot ride long enough to have fun on a regular bike, I will probably get and e-bike. IMHO, the best mountain bikers, like the best surfers, are the ones having the most fun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus View Post
    I'll stand by my reply to another thread on the same subject in the NorCal forum:
    The problem isn't the e-biker, the problem is the strava user who isn't satisfied with his or her own performance without comparing themselves to others via a smartphone app.

    =sParty


    Disagree. It seems that many here who either don't like strava, don't use strava, or use strava but aren't competitive enjoy pointing out to those do/are how their experience is being diminished by it, and that they would be a better person if they also didn't care and/or weren't competitive. Another thing repeatedly pointed out is that signing up for a race (and spending $100 entry plus travel and expenses) is honorable and worthy but trying to climb up the leaderboard of your favorite segment is somehow the opposite.

    I'm really not all that serious about it but it is good fun. For me. I'm not concerned about others who don't like it and am only asking the same consideration from them. I see it like this, if you don't like basketball don't play basketball, or concern yourself with it. Don't piss on their court and laugh while they slip on it because you think it's a dumb game, what kind of person does that?
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    Nat
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    If you love basketball and play basketball would you care what some non-baller thought of it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    If you love basketball and play basketball would you care what some non-baller thought of it?



    Absolutely not. As long as they don't piss on the court. Or harp on me about how it's bad for my soul.
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    Nat
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Absolutely not. As long as they don't piss on the court. Or harp on me about how it's bad for my soul.
    So there you go. If you view someone else's Strava time as "pissing on your court" then it's a problem of your own making (which is bad for your soul). If you use Strava to set personal goals that's one thing but if you let it get you pissed off and in a funk then that's a problem. Look inward.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Don't piss on their court and laugh while they slip on it because you think it's a dumb game, what kind of person does that?
    I don't know. Not me. That's not what I said, not even what I implied here. Not all Strava users are the same. I described one specific type. The offensive ones.

    I was talking about the Strava user railing down a multi-use trail at mach chicken yelling "STRAVA!" at the uphill traffic -- be they on foot or wheels -- recklessly trying to blow other trail users out of the way as they "striva" to get their name at the top of some meaningless who's who list. The ones who turn a multi-use trail into their own private race course. Yes, this happens in my neck of the woods. Happened to my ride clique while riding Maiden Peak Trail and King-Castle Trail. These are just two first hand examples. I've heard of several others second hand.

    If you lumped every Strava user into the group I described, then you construed my words to mean something I didn't intend. I believe there are plenty of Strava users out there who don't act like chimps. I was talking about those who are so egocentric that they don't care about other trail users. The ones who need to find competition in everything they do in order to feel adequate.

    I certainly didn't believe I was describing you, J.B.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus View Post
    I don't know. Not me. That's not what I said, not even what I implied here. Not all Strava users are the same. I described one specific type. The offensive ones.


    I was referring to your quote, "comparison is the theif of joy....."

    That seemed to be aimed at all strava users. I wasn't suggesting that you're the "piss on the court" type, that was directed at the article in the op and the comments following it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    So there you go. If you view someone else's Strava time as "pissing on your court" then it's a problem of your own making (which is bad for your soul). If you use Strava to set personal goals that's one thing but if you let it get you pissed off and in a funk then that's a problem. Look inward.
    That's funny. I thought he was talking about you pissing on the court. You're taking extensively about an app you don't use.

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    Strava is a fun way to compete and make rides more interesting by comparing your performance to others. I'm mainly a road cyclist and most/all of my friends are on strava. None of us base our self worth on it. None of us are shetchily riding on MUPs (or riding on them at all?).

    That said it IS annoying when people on e-bikes (or people in cars - yes it happens) are on the leaderboards. You can think of strava like a game and these people are cheating at the game which makes it less fun for everyone. If someone doesn't want to participate in strava then that's totally fine, it's not for everyone. If you want to ride an e-bike then good for you, but I just don't see how any rational person can claim it's OK for people on e-bikes to compete on an otherwise level playing field againt people on conventional bikes. It's ridiculous and it's completely understandable that some people are getting worked up about it.


    There is a local guy that must weigh a solid 350lbs and he has numerous top 10's in the area. I encountered him once on a commute... I was riding a solid 22-24mph, putting in accelerations, and I couldn't drop the guy. He would roll up to me at lights barely breathing hard and trying to chat me up like he's one of the guys or something. Makes me wonder what kind of self delusion that takes.


    Don't get me wrong I'm not ANGRY, but I think there's clearly a right and a wrong in this situation.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by tfinator View Post
    That's funny. I thought he was talking about you pissing on the court. You're taking extensively about an app you don't use.

    Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk
    What?

  22. #22
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    I thought he was talking about you pissing on the court. You're taking extensively about an app you don't use.

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  23. #23
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    This shits getting deep.
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    So there you go. If you view someone else's Strava time as "pissing on your court" then it's a problem of your own making (which is bad for your soul). If you use Strava to set personal goals that's one thing but if you let it get you pissed off and in a funk then that's a problem. Look inward.

    Strava has a separate selection for e-biking, separate from mountain biking, after the ride is over. The good boy e-bikers exclusively log their e-bike rides in the e-bike section. It will still show it as a 'ride' but it will not show up in any mountain bike segment stats. If someone on there consistently (as on not lazily or accidentally) posts e-bike rides as mountain bike rides, then they should be banned. Whether or not that ban actually happens I don't know.

    In the article: Users who suspect cheating can flag a ride as suspicious, which yanks the virtual trophy from the rider. Alleged cheats are notified when a ride has been flagged. They can use a pull-down menu on the app to acknowledge they were on an e-bike, delete the entry or clear their nameóand get their trophy backóby choosing: ďThe activity is fine, trust me.Ē


    If Strava payers threaten to quit using the app if the e-bikers are not banned from posting their segment rides on the mountain biking option, the problem will be quickly solved. Money talks.




    As of 2019 there are no e-bike segments because there are not enough riders:

    https://support.strava.com/hc/en-us/...as-no-segments


    I personally don't care what time I get on a segment with an e-bike, that was NEVER the purpose of getting one, and yes that does feel like cheating. But some more 'motivated' e-bikers want to know how they stack up. They can at home on their computer (not on their phone), temporarily switch the ride to mountain bike, log the stats on something else like Microsoft Excel, and then switch it back to e-bike and have the segment disappear from their ride. They need to switch it back to e-bike every time or there will be even more e-bike haters. Current e-bikers can be the new ambassadors to a new sport, or they can be antisocial jerks that ruin the biking experience for everyone. It's their choice.
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    I was referring to your quote, "comparison is the theif of joy....."

    That seemed to be aimed at all strava users. I wasn't suggesting that you're the "piss on the court" type, that was directed at the article in the op and the comments following it.
    Ah, gotcha. Thanks.

    The quote I referenced was indeed aimed at all Strava users. As well as all non-Strava users. Plus everyone else on the planet. Everyone. All the insecure shiny SUV owners and over-consumers and habitual shoppers and... well, everyone. Even you & me.

    But not in a superior way. Simply because I perceive it to be an axiom, that's all.

    I'll admit that I don't like anyone who brings universal competition to multi-use trails. By "universal competition" I mean looping unwitting bystanders (byriders?) into a rivalry they don't even know they're a part of. A contest they don't even WANT to be a part of but are, simply by virtue of their proximity to those who choose to create an impromptu race course, a race course unknown to those outside the Strava loop.

    There's a place for this competition. I enjoy friendly competition whenever my mates & I go out for a spin that turns mildly competitive. That's just between us and I admit I do love trying to get away from them or trying to not let them get away from me. I was also an endurance racer for a dozen years or so and was proud whenever I managed to ascend the podium. But neither of the situations I just described drag unsuspecting nonparticipants into the fray simply because they happen to be in proximity. A designated race course is marked and whenever my mates and I ride, we observe & obey trail etiquette. We stop trailside to greet other trail users. We're not competing against a clock.

    Maybe one of the things I find offensive about Strava is that it creates this racing atmosphere 24/7. If I'm out there engaging in friendly competition with my mates, then it's just right there, right then, just us. But with Strava, IT'S ON -- all the time. Even if the Strava competitor is all alone. Look out other trail users, you didn't know it but you're on a race course.

    My experience. With SOME Strava users. Granted, the worst ones.

    Again, I'm not talking about you, J.B.
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  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    So there you go. If you view someone else's Strava time as "pissing on your court" then it's a problem of your own making (which is bad for your soul).


    You misunderstand me. I like strava because it's open to all competors, that's the main appeal for me. Other people's times aren't pissing on the court, they are the players, they are what makes it fun.

    Of course I was talking about those who take kom's with motorbikes because they think it's funny. Ha, ha.
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  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    This just reaffirms my thoughts about electric bikes, the bikes themselves are fine but some of the people riding them are truly @ssholes.

    I agree with that 110%. What's weird about the e-bike forum here is that people come in there and don't even have an e-bike (yet) and still completely fly off the handle about any little discussion or argument. You don't see that happening in any other forum. There are arguments elsewhere, but, for example, you don't see someone who doesn't even own 29" tires coming into the wheels and tires forum and making this huge drama about 29" tires. Just doesn't happen. That happens all the time in the e-bike forum, it's like there is a lot of negative energy around it, or bad karma.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    The root of the problem is in letting someone elseís ride, especially a virtual ride, have an effect on your spirit.

    If you had what you thought was an awesome ride then suddenly felt defeated the moment you found out someone else rode faster then thatís silly. You just negated your own real experience because of a stupid data point.

    Well, you underestimate the will and obsession of a competitive person.

    I remember in school, my first 'real' biology class, I stayed up all night studying for the first test and got an 87%. A lot of the pre-med guys had a slightly lesser score. My lab partner got an 86 and heard I got an 87. I didn't even tell him about it, because I really didn't care how I stacked up against anyone, they do their thing, I do mine. This guy immediately comes up to me and says "Dude, it's only one point, it's not a big deal", and then slinks away defeated. I didn't even talk to him about it!!! I never said anything to him, it was a 100% one-sided conversation. What a weirdo. Those people really need help. They base their whole identity on competition.

    Or another example, this lady that did actually have an MD, from Harvard no less, working in a laboratory for 3 years next to me. I learned from a previous lab that adding glycogen to DNA helps precipitate it much better, so more is recovered from the centrifuge to do the subsequent experiment. I didn't 'think it up', I learned it from someone else. She kept losing her DNA samples. I borrowed her samples, added glycogen, recovered all of them, ran the experiment, gave the results to her. And what does she say? "You made it work, when I couldn't, I'll kill you!" Excuse me? I just helped her with something, big frigging deal. She's not even in the same field of technical work I was in, and she thought everything would work perfectly by the book? No, you learn from experience, by doing, by trial and error. Some of these straight-A graduates have a pretty scary outlook on life.
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  29. #29
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    Ah..typical Strava thread.

    I'm glad I use it just to track my rides, mileage, and elevation, and see where people ride.

    I'm always at 775 out of 820 anyways!
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  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus View Post
    I'll admit that I don't like anyone who brings universal competition to multi-use trails. By "universal competition" I mean looping unwitting bystanders (byriders?) into a rivalry they don't even know they're a part of. A contest they don't even WANT to be a part of but are, simply by virtue of their proximity to those who choose to create an impromptu race course, a race course unknown to those outside the Strava loop


    I can understand that but imo it's a different discussion than the op. Luckily it's pretty sparse where I glive and I've had very few issues, and often I won't see another trail user during the entire ride. Always friendly if I do though and if ever I'm mid-segment and going for a good time it's over the moment I spot anyone else. It's never a big deal, there's always next time.
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    As for users who get upset and/or defensive, bitter, or whatever about their times getting bumped I haven't seen it amongst anyone I know. I've received my fair share of "uh, oh" emails from strava and although something like, "dang it!" is usually the first thing that crosses my mind it's quickly followed by admiration and kudos, also a mental note to train a little better and maybe snag it back someday.
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  32. #32
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    The article is pretty bogus, some guy Brisbow, spends hours flagging people who beat his KOM times. Its funny how this tread turns to bickering so fast, but really if you read the article its just a bunch of bologna.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    I can understand that but imo it's a different discussion than the op. Luckily it's pretty sparse where I glive and I've had very few issues, and often I won't see another trail user during the entire ride. Always friendly if I do though and if ever I'm mid-segment and going for a good time it's over the moment I spot anyone else. It's never a big deal, there's always next time.
    Awesome, totally cool that you get your trails to yourself most of the time.

    As for this portion of the thread being a different discussion than the op, I can't say for sure as I admit I didn't read the entire article. I got to the part where the article said the Strava user called the e-biker a cheater and bristled; took a side. (Tho I probably could debate either side of this argument.) While I agree that a motorized user should not post his ride result in a human powered category, I also look at the bigger picture. Why are there even categories? What are we doing here anyway? We're all using the backwoods and we need to get along. Only Strava makes it matter who gets to the top or bottom of the hill fastest. Only Strava makes the forest a race course. Who cares if I'm on foot, on a motorcycle, on an e-bike, on a human powered bike or atop a horse? I'm in the backcountry. Let's enjoy it the way we want to without infringing on someone else's chosen way to enjoy it. I don't call anyone I meet in the woods a cheater. But if they tell me to get out of their way, well, they're picking a fight.

    If I was a Strava user, I'd use the app any way I saw fit. If the app is clumsy enough to make it difficult to tell which mode of transportation someone employs, that's the apps fault. I won't go bagging on hikers because they're slow anymore than I'd squeal if an equestrian rides to the top of the mountain before I arrive.

    I need to go ride my bike. Nice talkin' with ya, J.B.
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  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    I never said anything to him, it was a 100% one-sided conversation. What a weirdo. Those people really need help. They base their whole identity on competition.
    So true, that's exactly what I'm saying. It's an internal problem.

  35. #35
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    My take.

    If someone is ahead of me on an uphill segment, I either know them or can easily find real world results for them. Same with a round trip, zero net gain/loss segment.

    If someone on an e-bike is ahead of me, that isnít the case.

    But, hereís the kicker. I donít care. Iím not running over little old ladies to take the KOM on some segment in NorCal, Moab or my home trails. Iím not planning my daily ride around taking a KOM or retaking one, either. I donít record the vast majority of my rides; most of the ones that get recorded on my phone exist because my Garmin battery died.


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  36. #36
    Nat
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    Quote Originally Posted by langster831 View Post
    Its funny how this tread turns to bickering so fast, but really if you read the article its just a bunch of bologna.
    I don't see anyone bickering.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus View Post
    Only Strava makes it matter who gets to the top or bottom of the hill fastest. Only Strava makes the forest a race course.
    Strava makes things worse, but I recall the mentality being there long before the technology. It's not just in the forest either. You can see it on the roadways with aggressive drivers, in the classroom as richj8990 brought up, and probably a lot of other places if you think about it awhile.

  37. #37
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    "I learned from a previous lab that adding glycogen to DNA helps precipitate it much better, so more is recovered from the centrifuge to do the subsequent experiment. "

    This reminds me of when Hulk Hogan stole the championship belt from the Iron Shiek because his uncle was reffing that night. Cheater!!!!

    Btw, I'd normally be all upset about this thread but I'm at a new barber shop that has a fridge full of free beer. I love Strava. I love ebikes. I love ewoks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    I don't see anyone bickering.

    Strava makes things worse, but I recall the mentality being there long before the technology. It's not just in the forest either. You can see it on the roadways with aggressive drivers, in the classroom as richj8990 brought up, and probably a lot of other places if you think about it awhile.
    By golly you're right, Nat. We're seeing more and more rats chewing their own tails off, aren't we.
    Thank goodness there's mountain biking, the place we go to get away from such behavior.
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    oh who gives a flying **** if someone is faster than you on strava anyways,...

    bikes are expensive, mainly older people can afford them at this point.. old guys /ladies may need e-bikes to get out on the trails at all..

    I'll be 50 next year and for now I do "ok" on a non ebike..but I'm hesitant to go on rides with my younger friends because I simply can't keep up with them on the climbs.. with an e-bike I could ..

    if e-bikes were not banned on 1/2 the trails I want to ride around here... it is hard to justify spending thousands of dollars on a e-bike I can't ride on 50% of the trails around here.. i might buy one.

    it seems in other parts of the world e-bikes are more allowed on the trails.. personally I'd like to see them allowed much more here in the USA..

    /ducks... for fear of flying 5-10 freeriders being thrown at me...

    old dudes may well be the future of mtb... the key to keeping bike stores / brands alive older dudes may want / need e-bikes to have access to trails..

  40. #40
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    Just returned from 25 mile ride, 2,400'. Zero achievements, zero pr's, zero kom's. Great ride!

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  41. #41
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    Ebikes and racing on strava both belong on the road and the road only. The primary focus of multi use trails is not going as fast as you can. It is enjoying your ride and taking some sections slow so you don't blow someone's life out going around a hard turn. If you wanna be a racer, pay to be on a closed course or get on the road with the metal monsters.

    How many strava racing mtb guys agree with roadies going on paved multi use trails and razzing women and children?

    Take it easy on the trails, you never know when some kid is crouched in a corner checking out a salamander or something.

  42. #42
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    Me and my friends were riding trails as fast as we could long before strava, before smartphones, even before v-brakes. If strava goes away I'll still be pushing the pace, for whatever reason, good, bad, or ugly that's just how I'm wired.

    Anyway, I try to use good judgement, never hurt no one and have made no enemies one the trail. ymmv.
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    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    You don't see that happening in any other forum. There are arguments elsewhere, but, for example, you don't see someone who doesn't even own 29" tires coming into the wheels and tires forum and making this huge drama about 29" tires. Just doesn't happen. That happens all the time in the e-bike forum, it's like there is a lot of negative energy around it, or bad karma.
    The simple difference, which you obviously cannot comprehend, is that 29" tires don't have the potential to jeopardize hard-won MTB access, 29" tires aren't banned on many USFS and BLM trails, you don't have folks riding 29" tires making specious claims about access, etc.

    You need to work on your analogy game.

  44. #44
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    Lame piece by WSJ in my opinion.

    I don't give a rats arse about "cheating" or blowing away Strava KOM's of human powered riders. I'm not obsessed with seeing if I've beat out other riders on segments and for those that are motivated by competition, trophies, group challenges, etc.- whatever floats your boat...

    E-bikes can be a way for those who no longer have the endurance to ride far due to medical or age-related issues to continue riding. I have no problem with that group of riders (or commuters who travel long distance and extend their range using an e-bike).

    I do have a problem with other sorts of riders who get e-bikes and proceed to hot-rod/hack the firmware so they can go faster than intended/designed. Not only are they a danger to themselves but also to other riders who aren't expecting an e-bike to be hurtling toward or climbing past them at 22+ MPH.
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  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus View Post
    If the app is clumsy enough to make it difficult to tell which mode of transportation someone employs, that's the apps fault.


    I don't think technology exists that could differentiate between modes of travel, I do think strava should do a better job of addressing this issue though.

    They could make it more clear that the leaderboards are intended for athletes and make it easier for e-bikers to use their own category. Give them their own leaderboard or give them an E designation on the regular leaderboard that's easy to see.

    It will always rely on the honor system but I think strava could at least make it easier for users to know how they're are supposed to be using it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    Strava makes things worse, but I recall the mentality being there long before the technology. It's not just in the forest either. You can see it on the roadways with aggressive drivers, in the classroom as richj8990 brought up, and probably a lot of other places if you think about it awhile.
    This is very true. I know I'm not the only one who has gone out on an easy day and then noticed a rider up ahead (road or trail) and all of a sudden it's game time. No idea who it is or even why they're riding (just started a recovery ride? 50 miles into a century?). Doesn't matter. I'm going to try to catch them.

    I don't even think that the mentality is a bad one to have. It's just having a competitive drive. However pairing that with Strava certainly has it's consequences.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    The root of the problem is in letting someone elseís ride, especially a virtual ride, have an effect on your spirit.
    EXACTLY!

    I use Strava and have for years. I love to compete with myself and my friends. It is nice to have top 10 or KOM and a have a few, but in the end I know I am not the fastest of all and I will get beat every by anyone. I am happy if I get a top 10, but if I don't it does not bother me. If I get a KOM and it gets beat so what. I won't let it ruin my ride. Now I love getting PRs that means I beat myself. But some places I have ridden enough to make it really hard to get a PR anymore. Conditions sometimes have to be just right as well as my fitness mood etc.
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  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus View Post
    ....
    I was talking about the Strava user railing down a multi-use trail at mach chicken yelling "STRAVA!" at the uphill traffic -- ...

    =sParty

    I really have to say I have NEVER ever heard anyone yelling "STRAVA" on a trail except as joke with friends. never never never in thousands of miles of trail use. I have see people riding fast and not be respectful, but never heard "STRAVA" yelled. I think that is urban legan created and perpetuated by boards like this. And to be honest if you are and a-hole on the trail it not "Strava made you do it". No is you a-hole self that let you do it.
    Joe
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  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoePAz View Post
    EXACTLY!

    I use Strava and have for years. I love to compete with myself and my friends. It is nice to have top 10 or KOM and a have a few, but in the end I know I am not the fastest of all and I will get beat every by anyone. I am happy if I get a top 10, but if I don't it does not bother me. If I get a KOM and it gets beat so what. I won't let it ruin my ride. Now I love getting PRs that means I beat myself. But some places I have ridden enough to make it really hard to get a PR anymore. Conditions sometimes have to be just right as well as my fitness mood etc.




    That's exactly how I feel about it and it's pretty much the same with everyone else I know who uses strava. Contrary to Nat's post I've never known anyone who would let someone else's time on a leaderboard ruin their spirit, though I suppose a few people like that exist.
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  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott O View Post
    I love ewoks.
    Im pretty sure those little hairy bastards cheated at something, so I hate them
    always mad and usually drunk......

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmg71 View Post
    Im pretty sure those little hairy bastards cheated at something, so I hate them
    I had a buzz on and Star Wars was on the TV at the barbershop so I take back what I said. I. Was. Wrong!

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoePAz View Post
    I really have to say I have NEVER ever heard anyone yelling "STRAVA" on a trail except as joke with friends. never never never in thousands of miles of trail use. I have see people riding fast and not be respectful, but never heard "STRAVA" yelled. I think that is urban legan created and perpetuated by boards like this. And to be honest if you are and a-hole on the trail it not "Strava made you do it". No is you a-hole self that let you do it.
    It happened at least once that I know of first hand -- couple years ago on Maiden Peak Trail near Waldo Lake, OR. The other time they weren't yelling "STRAVA," they were simply using Strava, trying to win some virtual medal. (Verified by mutual acquaintances who use Strava and know the individual.) For the record this second incident was on Goodman Creek Trail; I was mistaken previously when I said King-Castle Trail. The K-C experience was yet another downhill bad actor blowing hikers off the trail and yelling "Mountain bike trail!" at them as he sped toward them but I don't know that Strava was involved in that case.

    I was blown away to find out the K-C bad actor actually worked for the USFS, McKenzie River Ranger District! Unbelievable. Members of the victimized hiker group reported the offensive rider's behavior to his employer the following business day. Meanwhile words were exchanged on the trail. I was there. I was furious at the damage to the entire sport of mountain biking that this rider and his two friends had done as they represented off-road cyclists in the minds of those hikers. Coincidentally I work at REI with one of the hikers.

    Turns out the Maiden Peak incident -- actually yelling "STRAVA!" while descending at high speed -- was a sponsored rider from Bend, OR. I won't mention the name of his sponsor because I don't believe they would have tolerated his behavior had they known about it. Anyway the rider nearly took out a couple uphill riders who were attempting to clean the climb. Strava dude was a total jackass and I imagine you're right Joe, he's probably a jackass in all facets of his life, whether Strava-ing or not. But he sure was Strava-ing that day.

    I don't like the way Strava encourages (some) people to consider the outback their race course 24/7. I'm sure not every Strava user gives in to the temptation, but even one is too many.
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  53. #53
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    I use strava in my coffee, it's much healthier than regular sugar.
    By continuing to browse my posts, you agree to accept my use of cookies.

  54. #54
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    Cheating is lame and for the weak.

    Is there an ebike category on Strave? I'm not a user.
    You can't get a suntan on the moon...

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott O View Post
    I love ewoks.
    Reported.
    ITMFA

  56. #56
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    To come clean:

    In 7+ years of this, the only person I've ever actually yelled "Strava!" at was the KOM holder of the segment I was riding at the time.

    So yeah, he deserved it... but I didn't beat him, anyway.
    The above statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by the one ring View Post
    Reported.
    I said I was drinking! Mods, please delete any of my posts when I was under the influence! With a clear mind I can tell you that I'd like to see every ewok get caught in the wheel of an ebike and die a slow painful ewok death.

  58. #58
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    Never mind... Nothing to see here. Move along, folks
    Why Johnny Ringo, you look like someone just walked over your grave.

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    As for users who get upset and/or defensive, bitter, or whatever about their times getting bumped I haven't seen it amongst anyone I know. I've received my fair share of "uh, oh" emails from strava and although something like, "dang it!" is usually the first thing that crosses my mind it's quickly followed by admiration and kudos, also a mental note to train a little better and maybe snag it back someday.

    It's going to be really hard to flag all e-bike riders that log it as a mountain bike ride, because, for example, the level-4 hill I do every few weeks has me pedaling on a normal bike at 2.5-3.0 mph, my e-bike can do it in 4-5 mph, and the KOM on a normal bike is 8.2 mph.

    Even a $7000 mid-drive e-bike may not be able to average 8 mph up a level-4 hill. A guy I follow that lives on the other side of that same hill borrowed his wife's e-bike and averaged 10.5 mph overall, but I'm sure his level 4 climbs were much less than 8 mph. He said the front tire was very light and was concerned about manualing accidentally. So an e-bike doesn't automatically take the KOM, it just supplants everyone's time below it. It can skew the intermediate, 30th to 200th place data too. I don't like that either. I am going to try really hard to be a good e-bike ambassador and to help punish the cheaters if I find them on there.
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  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    It's going to be really hard to flag all e-bike riders that log it as a mountain bike ride, because, for example, the level-4 hill I do every few weeks has me pedaling on a normal bike at 2.5-3.0 mph, my e-bike can do it in 4-5 mph, and the KOM on a normal bike is 8.2 mph.

    Even a $7000 mid-drive e-bike may not be able to average 8 mph up a level-4 hill. A guy I follow that lives on the other side of that same hill borrowed his wife's e-bike and averaged 10.5 mph overall, but I'm sure his level 4 climbs were much less than 8 mph. He said the front tire was very light and was concerned about manualing accidentally. So an e-bike doesn't automatically take the KOM, it just supplants everyone's time below it. It can skew the intermediate, 30th to 200th place data too. I don't like that either. I am going to try really hard to be a good e-bike ambassador and to help punish the cheaters if I find them on there.



    Did you mean to quote someone else? Your post has nothing to do with the quote it follows.


    I do agree that it would be impossible to flag all abusers though.
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  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by og-mtb View Post
    The simple difference, which you obviously cannot comprehend, is that 29" tires don't have the potential to jeopardize hard-won MTB access, 29" tires aren't banned on many USFS and BLM trails, you don't have folks riding 29" tires making specious claims about access, etc.

    You need to work on your analogy game.

    No, I get it. A lot of the people making a big stink in that forum are supporting e-bikes, not trying to ban them. I should have explained that better. I understand why people are paranoid about access going away.

    However, mountain biking has been around what, 25 years now? That's an entire generation of hikers, families walking on the trail, dog-walkers, neighbors, rangers, and everyone else seeing mountain bikes on trails. And a bike comes along that looks very similar, almost identical to a normal mountain bike, and because they are a bit faster, a bit heavier, all access will be lost to all bikes? Some access, maybe, maybe not. All access? Please. You guys act like access was granted yesterday. Most people walking on the trail could not care less what bikes we ride. You don't get that? A group of a dozen normal bike riders in a pack, acting obnoxious and running hikers off the trail at 12 mph will cause a lot more complaints than a single e-bike rider going by at the same speed. Look at it from a hiker's perspective, instead of from your MTB pedestal. If you are going to worry, worry about what 'the bros' do and say to the hikers while they ride by. Worry about how polite or how rude they are. Start with your own kind first.
    Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres: quod Belgiae, quod Celtae, et quod Aquitainae.

  62. #62
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    ^Na see 25 years ago was when access was a huge deal, mtbing had been around long before that, but thats maybe when people started acting like "stravaholes" more often. Huge areas were closed to mtb's and a lot of people have had to fight very hard to get a lot of access back. Now things change again and people are worried that access will get clamped down on again.
    All the gear and no idea.

  63. #63
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    When it comes to strava or any form of competition an e-bike is cheating. Adding 50, or 100, or 200 watts of power makes a big difference and does not represent what you as a rider can do. Sure you can argue the same about 20lbs bike vs a 30lbs bike, but I think the expectation is you will go for a lighter bike. Still a percentage 10lbs of bike is big for bike vs bike, but 150 or 140lbs rider weight is pretty small compared to 250 watts and 250watts + 100 power adder.

    There are good things and bad things about e-bikes and trail useage/access etc that can be debated for years, but there is simply no way to say there is anything "fair" about a competition vs and e-bike. Strava should simply seperate bike vs e-bike like they do running and biking. Heck they have a "running" activity type and a "hiking" activity type. Running has segments and hiking does not. Presumeably because running is more competitive and hiking is more about the experience and overall distance/elevation gain.

    Anyone that rides and e-bike and logs it as normal ride is cheating. However it just one form of cheating and in the end I don't care about. For Strava roadies there are things like "wind doping" where you hit a segment when you have an unusally strong tail wind. Or only attacking segments in pack or motor pacing etc. In the dirt there is "hero dirt" doping too where you wait for best dirt conditions and hit a segment. Really so many ways sneak up a leaderboard if you really want that are not or are borderline cheating that you can't get upset about strava. It is just a plaything to create a little more interest in rides. If you really want to know how is fast then sign up for a race.
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  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    No, I get it.
    No, you've proven over and over that you don't get it. All one has to do is read what you posted below to find more examples.


    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    And a bike comes along that looks very similar, almost identical to a normal mountain bike, and because they are a bit faster, a bit heavier, all access will be lost to all bikes?
    Because they have motors. MOTORS. Get it? They have motors.

    And if they are used on existing non-motorized trail systems then there is the chance that they could affect bicycle access since, as you noted, the motor bikes can look very similar to real bicycles.

    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    Some access, maybe, maybe not. All access? Please. You guys act like access was granted yesterday. Most people walking on the trail could not care less what bikes we ride. You don't get that? A group of a dozen normal bike riders in a pack, acting obnoxious and running hikers off the trail at 12 mph will cause a lot more complaints than a single e-bike rider going by at the same speed. Look at it from a hiker's perspective, instead of from your MTB pedestal. If you are going to worry, worry about what 'the bros' do and say to the hikers while they ride by. Worry about how polite or how rude they are. Start with your own kind first.
    'Whataboutism" is a dodge used by folks who can't address the issue at hand. The issue at hand is access concerns as a result of putting motors on bikes.

    I get it. I've sat across the table from HOHAs and spent years differentiating MTBs from the motorized crowd so I could keep on riding the narrow trails that I prefer.

    If you had that kind of experience, which is not unique to me nor my area, you would get it. But you don't.

  65. #65
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    Strava and e-bikes arguments in one place?

    Finally, a single repository for all the heated disagreements on MTBR.
    Riding Washington State singletrack since 1986

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crankout View Post
    Cheating is lame and for the weak.

    Is there an ebike category on Strave? I'm not a user.
    Strava does have a specific e-bike category. They have their own segments too.

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott O View Post
    I said I was drinking! Mods, please delete any of my posts when I was under the influence! With a clear mind I can tell you that I'd like to see every ewok get caught in the wheel of an ebike and die a slow painful ewok death.
    That's weird, why did Scott O's post count just go to zero?
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  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    No, I get it. A lot of the people making a big stink in that forum are supporting e-bikes, not trying to ban them. I should have explained that better. I understand why people are paranoid about access going away.

    However, mountain biking has been around what, 25 years now? That's an entire generation of hikers, families walking on the trail, dog-walkers, neighbors, rangers, and everyone else seeing mountain bikes on trails. And a bike comes along that looks very similar, almost identical to a normal mountain bike, and because they are a bit faster, a bit heavier, all access will be lost to all bikes? Some access, maybe, maybe not. All access? Please. You guys act like access was granted yesterday. Most people walking on the trail could not care less what bikes we ride. You don't get that? A group of a dozen normal bike riders in a pack, acting obnoxious and running hikers off the trail at 12 mph will cause a lot more complaints than a single e-bike rider going by at the same speed. Look at it from a hiker's perspective, instead of from your MTB pedestal. If you are going to worry, worry about what 'the bros' do and say to the hikers while they ride by. Worry about how polite or how rude they are. Start with your own kind first.
    I always thought e bikes went faster than regular mt bikes. Isn't that the whole idea?

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    I always thought e bikes went faster than regular mt bikes. Isn't that the whole idea?
    No, no no!

    The idea is to have the extra power to haul a couple cases of beer on a rack to drink up while riding.

    You know, for hydration purposes.
    Riding Washington State singletrack since 1986

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by atarione View Post
    oh who gives a flying **** if someone is faster than you on strava anyways,...

    bikes are expensive, mainly older people can afford them at this point.. old guys /ladies may need e-bikes to get out on the trails at all..

    I'll be 50 next year and for now I do "ok" on a non ebike..but I'm hesitant to go on rides with my younger friends because I simply can't keep up with them on the climbs.. with an e-bike I could ..

    if e-bikes were not banned on 1/2 the trails I want to ride around here... it is hard to justify spending thousands of dollars on a e-bike I can't ride on 50% of the trails around here.. i might buy one.

    it seems in other parts of the world e-bikes are more allowed on the trails.. personally I'd like to see them allowed much more here in the USA..

    /ducks... for fear of flying 5-10 freeriders being thrown at me...

    old dudes may well be the future of mtb... the key to keeping bike stores / brands alive older dudes may want / need e-bikes to have access to trails..
    I'm older than you. I have no desire or plan to buy or ride an ebike recreationally. I wouldn't mind commuting on one if I needed to or if it was practical or made sense economically but short of that, if I "can't keep up" I'll ride with people with who I can or, barring that, ride alone like I do mostly anyway.

    And if I have a heart attack and can't ride I'll take up another sport that won't tax my diminished physical abilities. Motoring along a trail has no interest for me in the same way I have no interest in riding motorcycles.

    ebiking is a separate sport or recreational activity from mountain biking. I don't mind seeing ebikes on trails because it doesn't bother me particularly

  71. #71
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    I still do not own an electric anything but I may soon. All issues aside, there is one pressing fact....ebikes are a ton of fun and more. They are just a blast if you own a Specialized Turbo S or similar machine. Maybe you will get less of a boast in your exercise benefits (maybe) but you will have fun especially is you crave speed.

  72. #72
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    meh...

    the whole topic doesn't really bother me as I only use Strava to track my mileage and feet and to check relative personal improvement... and maybe some good natured ribbing of buddies at the biergarten afterward, but

    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    It's going to be really hard to flag all e-bike riders that log it as a mountain bike ride, because, for example, the level-4 hill I do every few weeks has me pedaling on a normal bike at 2.5-3.0 mph, my e-bike can do it in 4-5 mph, and the KOM on a normal bike is 8.2 mph.
    I agree...

    The only thing I can think of is an algorithm that compares the relative power output of the whole individual ride to see if it jives. Strava could probably flag this and ask the "athlete" to confirm, but

    In the end it's not going to ID someone (like in the article) who's bent on tweaking KOM-level athletes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fajita Dave View Post
    Strava does have a specific e-bike category. They have their own segments too.
    Gotcha; thanks. I really don't want to publicize my life that much.
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    E mountain bikes don't make a lot of sense. They seemed to be banned everywhere.

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    Mark my words, E-bikes are the future

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    15 years from now e-bikes will be the predominant mountain bike.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    15 years from now e-bikes will be the predominant mountain bike.
    ...less

  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by langster831 View Post
    Mark my words, E-bikes are the future
    ... because old people will always uses them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    15 years from now e-bikes will be the predominant mountain bike.
    .... in geriatric centers.
    Last edited by fokof; 2 Weeks Ago at 06:29 AM.
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  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    15 years from now e-bikes will be the more common than mountain bikes.
    fify

    Not 100% sure I agree that will happen. Motorized bikes have been around a long time yet people still choose to ride road bikes despite no restrictions due to noise, tearing up roads, etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oh My Sack! View Post
    Remember, there's always quilting and knitting if pedalling becomes too tough.

  80. #80
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    Yeah, Iím not sure either but when I look at European mtb channels they seem like theyíve embraced electric bikes, and with the auto industry delving into electric vehicles I think two wheeled vehicles will follow. I just saw that Harley Davidson has a few electric motorcycles now. Whoíd have ever thought that would happen? Harley! Iíd be all for an electric dual sport dirt bike if it had decent range.

    In four years Iíll qualify for residence at the assisted living facility down the street, lol, so in fifteen years maybe Iíll get to show off my sweet electric ride to my geriatric crew.

  81. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    You guys act like access was granted yesterday. Most people walking on the trail could not care less what bikes we ride. .
    Ummm...access is an ongoing process; be clear about that.
    Most people might not care about sharing trails with bikes, but the ones that don't like it are always looking for ammo.
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  82. #82
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    I finally read the article, what a load of crap.
    Those old fellas need to get a life, and stop bitchin about nothing.

    Wheres that Grandpa Simpson pic of him yelling at a cloud? because those idiots fit into that category.

    now get off my lawn!!!


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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    .... I just saw that Harley Davidson has a few electric motorcycles now. Whoíd have ever thought that would happen? Harley!
    Yep
    I read somewhere that these Harley will have a badass sound system to reproduce the noise , but engineer are still working on how to increase battery life because of that.

    "There is a big difference between kneeling down and bending over" -FZ

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    Quote Originally Posted by fokof View Post
    Yep
    I read somewhere that these Harley will have a badass sound system to reproduce the noise , but engineer are still working on how to increase battery life because of that.

    Mattel had that nailed 50 years ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLZe3LzHQVY

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    Yeah, Iím not sure either but when I look at European mtb channels they seem like theyíve embraced electric bikes, and with the auto industry delving into electric vehicles I think two wheeled vehicles will follow. I just saw that Harley Davidson has a few electric motorcycles now. Whoíd have ever thought that would happen? Harley! Iíd be all for an electric dual sport dirt bike if it had decent range.

    In four years Iíll qualify for residence at the assisted living facility down the street, lol, so in fifteen years maybe Iíll get to show off my sweet electric ride to my geriatric crew.
    what is really he the difference between e-bike/e-motorcycle/and gas powered dirtbike/motocycle? I mean really. All of them have motors that power the wheels. The fact that "e-bike" are sitting on a bicycle frame and have only 250w of power is not really a barrier. Over 100 years ago the first motorcycles were simply modificed bicycle frames with small motors and pedals. In time the realized the pedals were pointless when you have a nearly limitless supply of mechanical power from the motor. E-bikes are just the same. Their evolution can only lead to more power and greater range requiring more deviation from the tradition bicycle frame.

    What separates bicycles (dirt or road) from motorcycles is in fact the motor. One class is human powered where the max power output is limited by the human body. The other is power in part or whole by a motor (gas or electric) and there is no absolute limit to the power. This is why e-bikes are not really bicycles because they are not solely human powered. The are in fact light, quite low powered motorcycles. Their may be a place for these things in the world, but they are NOT bicycles despite how their manufactures try to push them. The sky is blue not red despite how much some folks my try to say otherwise. The fact is we all know this because we can use our own eyes.

    What needs to be done ASAP (but the MFG won't do it since they just want to sell crap) is clearly state e-bikes are NOT bicycles. They are new class of silent, low powered motor bike. They should advocate on their own for access and to create the distinction, but would rather take the easy way to just ride coat tails of bicycles and try to "sneak in" as just the same thing when they clearly are not.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoePAz View Post
    what is really he the difference between e-bike/e-motorcycle/and gas powered dirtbike/motocycle? I mean really. All of them have motors that power the wheels. The fact that "e-bike" are sitting on a bicycle frame and have only 250w of power is not really a barrier. Over 100 years ago the first motorcycles were simply modificed bicycle frames with small motors and pedals. In time the realized the pedals were pointless when you have a nearly limitless supply of mechanical power from the motor. E-bikes are just the same. Their evolution can only lead to more power and greater range requiring more deviation from the tradition bicycle frame.

    What separates bicycles (dirt or road) from motorcycles is in fact the motor. One class is human powered where the max power output is limited by the human body. The other is power in part or whole by a motor (gas or electric) and there is absolute limit to the power. This is why e-bikes are not really bicycles because they are not solely human powered. The are in fact light, quite low powered motorcycles. Their may be a place for these things in the world, but they are NOT bicycles despite how their manufactures try to push them. The sky is blue not red despite how much some folks my try to say otherwise. The fact is we all know this because we can use our own eyes.

    What needs to be done ASAP (but the MFG won't do it since they just want to sell crap) is clearly state e-bikes are NOT bicycles. They are new class of silent, low powered motor bike. They should advocate on their own for access and to create the distinction, but would rather take the easy way to just ride coat tails of bicycles and try to "sneak in" as just the same thing when they clearly are not.
    I don't disagree but I think people as a whole will gravitate towards e-bikes because most people won't care about the semantics of what is a bike and what isn't. People want fun and people seek the path of least resistance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    I don't disagree but I think people as a whole will gravitate towards e-bikes because most people won't care about the semantics of what is a bike and what isn't. People want fun and people seek the path of least resistance.
    Then buy a motocross bike. They are already out there. Fast and fun. I have a road bike and mountain bike because I want to pedal. Really that is the point... to pedal.

    BTW... I know plenty of people with both Mtn Bikes and Motos.

    It is not semantics, but what an object is. a bicycle does NOT have motor. a Motorcycle HAS a motor.
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  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoePAz View Post
    Then buy a motocross bike. They are already out there. Fast and fun. I have a road bike and mountain bike because I want to pedal. Really that is the point... to pedal.

    BTW... I know plenty of people with both Mtn Bikes and Motos.

    It is not semantics, but what an object is. a bicycle does NOT have motor. a Motorcycle HAS a motor.
    Just to be clear, I'm speculating about people in general. I get the feeling you're talking directly at me looking for a foe.

    I would actually gladly buy a motorcycle if someone were to make an electric one with decent battery range. I don't want the noise pollution of the gas motors.

  89. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoePAz View Post
    Then buy a motocross bike. They are already out there. Fast and fun. I have a road bike and mountain bike because I want to pedal. Really that is the point... to pedal.

    BTW... I know plenty of people with both Mtn Bikes and Motos.

    It is not semantics, but what an object is. a bicycle does NOT have motor. a Motorcycle HAS a motor.
    I'm just curious, because I've never seen an e-bike that you don't pedal, and I know there electric motorcycles out there but that's not what were talking about.

    If you did a 30 minute effort on a 10 mile climb with an average grade of 9%, other than how far you made it up the climb would there be any difference in the physical output your body produced between an e-bike and mechanical bike?

    I just don't see any con's when it comes to e-bikes, but a lot of pros

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    Quote Originally Posted by langster831 View Post
    I just don't see any con's when it comes to e-bikes, but a lot of pros
    Cons for me are that theyíre really heavy (so less agile) and that thereís limited singletrack on which to ride them where I live. Iíve borrowed one once and it was pretty damned fun

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    Cons for me are that theyíre really heavy (so less agile) and that thereís limited singletrack on which to ride them where I live. Iíve borrowed one once and it was pretty damned fun
    The bikes will get lighter, so right now the only thing stopping me from getting one is price, and trail access.

  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by langster831 View Post
    I'm just curious, because I've never seen an e-bike that you don't pedal, and I know there electric motorcycles out there but that's not what were talking about.



    My neighbor has one, it has pedals, a throttle, fat tires... pretty cool but imo clearly a motorbike.
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  93. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by langster831 View Post
    The bikes will get lighter, so right now the only thing stopping me from getting one is price, and trail access.
    I'm pretty sure one will be in my future at some point. Singletrack access is minimal here but I might want one to cruise the jeep roads (all by myself away from the crowds then post about it online for camaraderie). Then again, if a moto manufacturer were to make an e-dirt bike I'd probably just go that route. The YouTubes featuring Alta motos look really fun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by langster831 View Post
    I'm just curious, because I've never seen an e-bike that you don't pedal, and I know there electric motorcycles out there but that's not what were talking about.

    If you did a 30 minute effort on a 10 mile climb with an average grade of 9%, other than how far you made it up the climb would there be any difference in the physical output your body produced between an e-bike and mechanical bike?

    I just don't see any con's when it comes to e-bikes, but a lot of pros
    What is the power output of the motor? For bicycle how far you got in 30 mintues is down to the human. For the e-bike it down to the power of the motor.

    And to tie back in to the original post. This why Strava needs to class e-bikes differently. Strava is about measuring human achievement and the segments do that. No their is no reason get up in arms about KOMs as life is not fair, but fact still remains. Once you have a motor you are not looking at human achievement. You are looking at motor output.
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  95. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoePAz View Post
    It is not semantics, but what an object is. a bicycle does NOT have motor. a Motorcycle HAS a motor.
    This is something that moped proponents just don't get.

    Never underestimate laziness.
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  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Travis Bickle View Post
    This is something that moped proponents just don't get.

    Never underestimate laziness.
    Laziness will find a way.

    lol!
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoePAz View Post
    What is the power output of the motor? For bicycle how far you got in 30 mintues is down to the human. For the e-bike it down to the power of the motor.
    I'm not sure, what is the power output of the typical e-bike on the market? Aren't they motor assist? Meaning you would have to pedal to keep the bike moving, but the motor adds a little boost. So after that 30 minute effort on a mechanical bike you might only cover 3-4 miles but on an e-bike you might cover the whole distance, but the effort from the cyclist would be the same.

    Or can you just grab a hand full of throttle and cruise to the top?

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    Quote Originally Posted by langster831 View Post
    I'm not sure, what is the power output of the typical e-bike on the market? Aren't they motor assist? Meaning you would have to pedal to keep the bike moving, but the motor adds a little boost. So after that 30 minute effort on a mechanical bike you might only cover 3-4 miles but on an e-bike you might cover the whole distance, but the effort from the cyclist would be the same.

    Or can you just grab a hand full of throttle and cruise to the top?
    I believe class 1 e-bikes must have pedals and those must be turning for the motor to add power. I believe those power levels are selectable by the rider on the fly. So they can choose to use all 250w to burst up a climb at the risk of running the battery down or can just a 50watts for little boost, but go for much longer. In the end again it comes down to in large part motor output and battery life/rating. 200 watts is not unreasonable for rider to put out powerwise. Some are stronger and many are weaker. So "adding" 200w is doubling the power output and that makes a significant change. It is not like a little 10% bump from 200 to 220 watts. Of course people are already looking to find ways and have found ways to "mod" the bikes for more power. This is the nature of people, Americans especially. If a little power is good more must be better right? That is why we have 180hp 200+ mph motorcycles on the street. Frankly I don't care about people doing that because it IS fun. But it NOT cycling. It is different.


    Now some Class 2 and class 3 e-bikes have different rules on max power assist speeds and throttles etc, but these are just artificial limits rather than practical limits. Enforcing artificial limits never really works well. Enforcing piratical limit nearly all the time works much better. I used road race cars and was a director and rules coordinator for the class. The idea was to have everyone in equal cars to let driver skill be the determination in who won. I spent lots of time crafting rules to ensure the cars were as equal as possible despite everyone's desire to mod the cars to make them faster. We allowed some mods and not others. I always worked to find practical limits where to go further required a step change that was clear and obvious. That clear and obvious line of demarcation is motor vs no motor. If your bicycle has no motor is it a bicycle. If it has a motor is different and an entirely different set of rules apply.
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    Quote Originally Posted by toadmeister View Post
    Reads like a bit of teenage drama.
    Agree!

    Do people really care that much what other people put in their fitness apps? And the article mentions people are "hacking" fitness apps by forgetting to enter what they eat. Seriously? Who cares! The WSJ must be out of new material (or out of reporters/writers).

    For me, this falls into the same category as people Facebook posting that they took a big dump.

    Quote Originally Posted by chuckha62 View Post
    Never mind... Nothing to see here. Move along, folks
    +1
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    Quote Originally Posted by langster831 View Post
    Mark my words, E-bikes are the future... for the road!
    Fixed it for you.

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