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Poll: Downcountry?

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  1. #1
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    Downcountry Poll

    How do you feel about Downcountry?

    https://www.pinkbike.com/news/what-t...e-opinion.html
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  2. #2
    Nat
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    He even called them "fun country" bikes. Oh the humanity!

  3. #3
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    Good lord, i just read the downcountry recommendation thread in the 29er forum. Moar subforumz

  4. #4
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    I'm kinda ambivalent. It's just continued market segmentation that marketers use to try to create more demand and sales. I would vote for a Downcountry Riding Passion forum.
    Do the math.

  5. #5
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    I hate the name as I think it is stupid (does not make me angry I just laugh at it), but I like the bikes. I think a lot XC bikes with a thoughtful build spec are in fact ideal for most riding from most riders. I think that most "trail" bikes these days are getting heavy and that many of the newer XC bike are already so capable out of the box.


    I bought 2018 Specialized Epic last year and adjusted it to my liking. 2.2 XR2 rear tire, 2.35 Ikon front on 24mm internal wide wheels. Very slight change to OE spec. I race this bike in 90 min XC sprint races, 5+ hr marathon races, stages races and I just ride it around for fun. I just picked up carbon dropper post. I have not had time to install it, but it will expand its capabilities with a minimal weight impact. Bike used to come in at 22.5lbs, but will go up. I don't know what you would call my bike. I call it cross-country since it ride it all over. It climbs well and descends really well. The lack of a dropper was the only limit on techy stuff. I don't do big air or big drops so I don't need really big bike. When I do have a first generation 5010. I like that bike, but its weight (30lbs) means it simply does not climb as well so I reserve it for the most gnar or just really casual rides.

    BTw.. if we start using downcountry can we just call it DC? Or is that too much like XC?
    Joe
    '18 Specialized Epic 29", Vassago Verhauen SS 29", '13 Santa Cruz Solo 27.5", XC, AM, blah blah blah.. I just ride.

  6. #6
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    Is 'downcountry' XC in baggies? Or just XC for those who don't identify as XC?

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDwayyo View Post
    Is 'downcountry' XC in baggies? Or just XC for those who don't identify as XC?
    I think "Downcountry" is for those that think they are tool cool for "XC" since they think XC is all about racer weenies. I will say Mike Levy is using the term in a mocking fashion so he is the exception. I don't think he cares what you call it, but he likes a light snappy bike.
    Joe
    '18 Specialized Epic 29", Vassago Verhauen SS 29", '13 Santa Cruz Solo 27.5", XC, AM, blah blah blah.. I just ride.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDwayyo View Post
    Is 'downcountry' XC in baggies?
    If it is, I've been riding downcountry all these years and never even realized it!
    By continuing to browse my posts, you agree to send me cookies.

  9. #9
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    "Downcountry" is the stupidest effing thing to hit these forums since the moon saddle. Floggings will commence at 12 sharp.
    "These things are very fancy commuter bikes or really bad dirt bikes, but they are not mountain bikes." - J. Mac

  10. #10
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    Meh. I don't care if "down country" exists. I've been spec'ing my own frames for 2 decades. Ride whatever, not sure why the industry believes they have to quantify and name every little niche.

  11. #11
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    I'm new to the sport of mountain biking, even though I've been cycling in some form or another for most of my life. So my perspective reflects the fact that "downcountry" was a term I was already reading as I was researching what first proper mountain bike to buy, so I'm probably biased because of that.

    That said, I have no problem with the term "downcountry". I think its really quite clear honestly. I can get why some people hate that "another term" is being introduced, but I think its natural/normal. Sometimes segments just change over time, and need a new term. Happens in most other industries as well (crossover vs CUV vs SUV, laptop vs convertible laptop, etc), so I guess maybe thats why it doesn't seem to bother me.

    It basically describes an overforked full suspension XC bike with a dropper, and tires and other components that prioritize fun/no flats over the lowest weight possible. But thats a lot more of a mouthful than "downcountry".

    Or, I guess I personally see it as how a casual/fun rider would spec/build a pedally bike. Or as another poster suggested, its what you'd ride in baggies :P.

    I think that at present, the range for "downcountry", is solidly in the 100-120mm rear travel realm. Anything past that and you're getting into trail bike category (~130-150mm travel "ish"), and past that, into enduro (~160-180mm travel "ish"), and then downhill (180mm +).

    I'm just waiting for the terms "Trailduro" (like my kona process 153?) and "downduro" to catch on, as I don't feel we've hit peak marketing terminology quite yet, and I need some more terms to throw around when talking about bikes with my friends to feel like I know something :P.

  12. #12
    Nat
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    When will DC racing happen? Will it be like XC racing but with mandatory smiling?

  13. #13
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    Anyone ever compete in a downcountry race? Should I pioneer a race series?

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    When will DC racing happen? Will it be like XC racing but with mandatory smiling?
    ha, you beat me to it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoePAz View Post
    I think "Downcountry" is for those that think they are tool cool for "XC" since they think XC is all about racer weenies. I will say Mike Levy is using the term in a mocking fashion so he is the exception. I don't think he cares what you call it, but he likes a light snappy bike.
    Agreed on all points. It absolutely is XC for people who are 'too cool' for XC. Spoiler alert; if they were actually that cool they'd huck something once in a while and be AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ocnLogan View Post
    I'm new to the sport of mountain biking, even though I've been cycling in some form or another for most of my life. So my perspective reflects the fact that "downcountry" was a term I was already reading as I was researching what first proper mountain bike to buy, so I'm probably biased because of that.

    That said, I have no problem with the term "downcountry". I think its really quite clear honestly. I can get why some people hate that "another term" is being introduced, but I think its natural/normal. Sometimes segments just change over time, and need a new term. Happens in most other industries as well (crossover vs CUV vs SUV, laptop vs convertible laptop, etc), so I guess maybe thats why it doesn't seem to bother me.

    It basically describes an overforked full suspension XC bike with a dropper, and tires and other components that prioritize fun/no flats over the lowest weight possible. But thats a lot more of a mouthful than "downcountry".

    Or, I guess I personally see it as how a casual/fun rider would spec/build a pedally bike. Or as another poster suggested, its what you'd ride in baggies :P.

    I think that at present, the range for "downcountry", is solidly in the 100-120mm rear travel realm. Anything past that and you're getting into trail bike category (~130-150mm travel "ish"), and past that, into enduro (~160-180mm travel "ish"), and then downhill (180mm +).

    I'm just waiting for the terms "Trailduro" (like my kona process 153?) and "downduro" to catch on, as I don't feel we've hit peak marketing terminology quite yet, and I need some more terms to throw around when talking about bikes with my friends to feel like I know something :P.
    Stick around in the sport a little longer and you'll realize very few of the terms you just threw out mean the same thing to two people.

    Personally, I think three categories cover things just fine - XC race bike, trail bike, downhill bike. Anything in between those three gets too subjective to be meaningful in any distinct way. Sure, that leaves a wide range in the trail category - but that makes sense given the wide range of 'trail riding.' Is it really such a big deal to say 'it's a long travel trail bike' or 'it's a lightweight trail bike?'

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDwayyo View Post
    Is 'downcountry' XC in baggies? Or just XC for those who don't identify as XC?
    It is just an XC bike with wider tires and perhaps a bigger fork..... not really a new segment IMO. The trend of trying to create all these "different" segments is just a marketing ploy to get people to buy new bikes.

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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by thedwayyo View Post
    personally, i think three categories cover things just fine - xc race bike, trail bike, downhill bike. Anything in between those three gets too subjective to be meaningful in any distinct way. Sure, that leaves a wide range in the trail category - but that makes sense given the wide range of 'trail riding.' is it really such a big deal to say 'it's a long travel trail bike' or 'it's a lightweight trail bike?'
    ditto
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  19. #19
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    Downcountry sounds like what my XC bikes become as I break stuff and replace broken things with more durable / burly items.

  20. #20
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    Is that a Down Syndrome country band?

    Probably better than regular country.

  21. #21
    Nat
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    Quote Originally Posted by ocnLogan View Post
    I'm new to the sport of mountain biking, even though I've been cycling in some form or another for most of my life. So my perspective reflects the fact that "downcountry" was a term I was already reading as I was researching what first proper mountain bike to buy, so I'm probably biased because of that.

    That said, I have no problem with the term "downcountry". I think its really quite clear honestly. I can get why some people hate that "another term" is being introduced, but I think its natural/normal. Sometimes segments just change over time, and need a new term. Happens in most other industries as well (crossover vs CUV vs SUV, laptop vs convertible laptop, etc), so I guess maybe thats why it doesn't seem to bother me.

    It basically describes an overforked full suspension XC bike with a dropper, and tires and other components that prioritize fun/no flats over the lowest weight possible. But thats a lot more of a mouthful than "downcountry".

    Or, I guess I personally see it as how a casual/fun rider would spec/build a pedally bike. Or as another poster suggested, its what you'd ride in baggies :P.

    I think that at present, the range for "downcountry", is solidly in the 100-120mm rear travel realm. Anything past that and you're getting into trail bike category (~130-150mm travel "ish"), and past that, into enduro (~160-180mm travel "ish"), and then downhill (180mm +).

    I'm just waiting for the terms "Trailduro" (like my kona process 153?) and "downduro" to catch on, as I don't feel we've hit peak marketing terminology quite yet, and I need some more terms to throw around when talking about bikes with my friends to feel like I know something :P.
    My biggest beef with the term "downcountry" is that it's already a real word with actual definitions:

    1. "In, into, or relating to the low-lying and generally more densely settled part of a country as opposed to hilly regions." -- Oxford English Dictionary

    2. "In, toward, or of the seaboard or peripheral regions of an area" -- Merriam Webster Dictionary

    Neither of those definitions matches the type of bike we're discussing unless we're talking about a bike designed specifically for riding along the beach in places like Tampa, FL.

    If anything, the bikes we're describing would be more appropriately termed "upcountry."

    "Downduro" just hurts.

  22. #22
    Nat
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    I've said "downcountry" in my head enough times now that I'd like to change my poll response from "makes me laugh" to "makes me angry." Grrrrrrrrr.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    I've said "downcountry" in my head enough times now that I'd like to change my poll response from "makes me laugh" to "makes me angry." Grrrrrrrrr.
    Starting to agree...

  24. #24
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    I just set myself on fire because downcountry
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDwayyo View Post
    Stick around in the sport a little longer and you'll realize very few of the terms you just threw out mean the same thing to two people.

    Personally, I think three categories cover things just fine - XC race bike, trail bike, downhill bike. Anything in between those three gets too subjective to be meaningful in any distinct way. Sure, that leaves a wide range in the trail category - but that makes sense given the wide range of 'trail riding.' Is it really such a big deal to say 'it's a long travel trail bike' or 'it's a lightweight trail bike?'
    Sure, I get that. Unless some third party enforces differences between terms, rarely does everyone define them exactly the same.

    But I mean, if a segment has a huge range, doesn't it also make sense that it could be segmented into smaller, but still distinct categories? That way you wouldn't have to say "its a sporty, efficient pedaling short travel trail bike" or a "longer travel trail bike that I race enduros with". You could just say "its an enduro bike", or similar.

    I've got no horse in this race, and honestly don't really care. Just saying, personally, I can understand how the term appeared. As you say, the term "trail" covers a huge range, and I think this is just people trying to be more precise.

    Maybe my opinion will change over time though, as I said, I am new to the sport.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    My biggest beef with the term "downcountry" is that it's already a real word with actual definitions:


    1. "In, into, or relating to the low-lying and generally more densely settled part of a country as opposed to hilly regions." -- Oxford English Dictionary


    2. "In, toward, or of the seaboard or peripheral regions of an area" -- Merriam Webster Dictionary


    Neither of those definitions matches the type of bike we're discussing unless we're talking about a bike designed specifically for riding along the beach in places like Tampa, FL.


    If anything, the bikes we're describing would be more appropriately termed "upcountry."


    "Downduro" just hurts.
    For the record, my "downduro" comment was purely a joke. Same with "trailduro".

    I understand what you mean about overloading words meanings. But I mean, thats hardly something new in English. Even downcountry already has two different meanings.

    What if it was hyphenated, or just "down country"? I mean, thats how Cross Country is, its never written "CrossCountry".

    Either way, It seems most are frustrated/annoyed at it the fact that its not different enough from current trail/XC bikes, not necessarily the wording.

  26. #26
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    Back when I started riding we had 2 kinds of "Mountain bikes". Cross country bikes and Downhill bikes. The difference was you rode cross country bikes up hills, downhills and on flat trails. Downhill bikes however were designed and built to go down fast and take abuse. They were heavy and strongly built (although many did fail given the learning curve they were on). They were not about pedalling up hill at all. Pedaling these bikes sucked due 40+lbs weight and simple suspensions designed for going down.

    Then people started racing and there was a clear difference in a bike you raced on courses where you climb and descended vs those you just went down. Over time the bikes also were more and more separated and specialized. Riders began to realize they need something in between. There was free ride which was most like DH, but not a race and more about remote places. So pedaling was needed to get there rather than always lifts or shuttles. Then All Mountain came to be where bikes were designed to be able to pedal to all the fun downhill spots (more so than free ride), but were prioritized to downhill fun. Then it was under stood that even these pedaled too poorly for simple flat trails and many of the XC bike were to racy for every day riding. Remember also that many XC races of day were pretty tame courses so you don't need lots of strong parts and progressive geometry. So then trail was born.
    So by this time we had
    XC
    Trail
    AM
    DH

    Free ride kind of merged with DH and Enduro was just starting up. Enduro was really about taking AM bikes and riding styles and racing them. Again many XC course were so smooth and so dependent pedaling up a fire road that many yearned for something new do with these very capable AM bikes. So enduro was born. Now as enduro has grown racing like always has further specialized the bikes at least for the top pro level. At this time trail bikes started getting bigger and stronger and also heavier. But XC race bikes changed too. I am not sure when the change over happened, but XC races course at the top pro level started getting more technical. There are some short sections in World Cup XC races that would make an average weekend warrior enduro racer cringe and get spooked. However for the XC Pros they had to negotiate these on light bikes that skill climbed really well and cornered really well. This has driven XC race bikes to being a little strong and with a more "Trail" geometry of a few years ago. Combining this with current trail bikes at 29-30lbs and there is a spot open for bikes in 25-28lbs range with short travel, slack head angles an really good climbing capabilities. This used to be what we called trail, but every year it seems for a trail bike to be "better" than last year's bike it had to be slacker, longer and more travel. If not how could you sell the new bike? It seems like ever time a new bike comes out is a X% Stiffer, 0.5 to 1 deg slacker, 10mm more travel, 10mm longer TT & Reach, Steeper seat angle etc. Only the XC bikes do we seem to even mention weight.

    The issue however to me is two fold. 1) I think marketing is pushing too many people into bikes that are too big. Meaning more travel and slacker than what hey need for most of the riding they will do. This results in being overbiked most of the time. That means climbing is harder and trails feel dull. 2) There are too many meaning less terms being tossed around and not be used properly. People think XC bikes are twichy and unstable and only those crazy people that like to climb. Well I can tell you I like to climb much better on my 22.5lbs XC bike than I do on my 30lbs trail bike. If the only bike I had was 160mm travel bike I would hate climbing. Now where does downcountry come in? Another useless term to be sure since all it is trail riding. Now if what are called "trail" bikes these days were not so heavy we could just call them trail. We could just call them XC bikes too, but too many people think XC is for weenies and am too cool for XC. Well XC is cool even XC racing. Ride with any Cat 1/ Expert level XC racer and you will realize two things. First they have legs and lungs and can climb fast for long periods. Yes they are fit and where is the shame in that? Second they have really good skills and can fly downhill, in turns or rocky technical climbs. While skills do vary from rider to rider you don't progress to that level without having solid skills. Some have no issues down 3ft drops at race pace going 150 bpm hear rate 60 seconds after charging up a climb.
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  27. #27
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    Does my attack position change on a Downcountry bike?
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  28. #28
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    I always found that your bike need to suit the trail. My old GT LTS with bomber triple clamp was build light. My Blur XC was built tough with a dropper and big brakes. My tallboy 3 was also build with big brakes and various tires.
    I now have identical builds from a tallboy 3 frame to a Ripmo frame. Total weight difference was under a lb in frame/shock/fork weight. I gave up a small amount of climbing for a huge bump in descending and it suits me perfectly.
    Having a 22.7 lb blur to ride and a 29.5 lb Ripmo, 99% of the time I pick the Ripmo.
    The difference in feel and climbing is massive between the bikes.
    For local trail riding super steep stuff and not having to worry about my tires the extra weight is worth it. I could get buy on a shorter or longer travel bike, but I have found my sweet spot. It's fun, nimble, plush and light enough.

    If anything my Tallboy 3 is the definition of a down country bike and I used it for everything including DH runs. I must be getting old and soft as it really started to beat me up on long shuttle run days.
    Making shit harder than it needs to be isn't awesome, it's just...harder.

  29. #29
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    Works for me. XC had too many memories of steep high hardtails with skinnies. Folks/consumers just could not get over it, and might overbike to avoid the connotation. So we needed a new term for what is essentially modern XC, to make buying the right bike seem cool again.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by ocnLogan View Post

    For the record, my "downduro" comment was purely a joke. Same with "trailduro".
    Yeah, I got you. Contrary to popular belief, sarcasm does in fact come across the internet well when the writer knows how to write and the reader knows how to read.

    Quote Originally Posted by ocnLogan View Post
    I understand what you mean about overloading words meanings. But I mean, thats hardly something new in English. Even downcountry already has two different meanings.
    However, the established meanings of "downcountry" are related, and are both kind of opposite to how author Levy is applying it to mountain biking.

    "Let's go downcountry tomorrow!"

    "Great, I'll grab my swim trunks and surfboard."

  31. #31
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    This has only been going on since forever.

    Not that long ago, pretty much every bike was an XC bike. If you were going to race it, you put light and skinny stuff on it. If you were going to thrash it, you put heavy fat stuff on it. Same bike. Same frame.
    Sometimes they broke.

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  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoePAz View Post
    The issue however to me is two fold. 1) I think marketing is pushing too many people into bikes that are too big. Meaning more travel and slacker than what hey need for most of the riding they will do. This results in being overbiked most of the time. That means climbing is harder and trails feel dull. 2) There are too many meaning less terms being tossed around and not be used properly. People think XC bikes are twichy and unstable and only those crazy people that like to climb. Well I can tell you I like to climb much better on my 22.5lbs XC bike than I do on my 30lbs trail bike. If the only bike I had was 160mm travel bike I would hate climbing. Now where does downcountry come in? Another useless term to be sure since all it is trail riding. Now if what are called "trail" bikes these days were not so heavy we could just call them trail. We could just call them XC bikes too, but too many people think XC is for weenies and am too cool for XC. Well XC is cool even XC racing. Ride with any Cat 1/ Expert level XC racer and you will realize two things. First they have legs and lungs and can climb fast for long periods. Yes they are fit and where is the shame in that? Second they have really good skills and can fly downhill, in turns or rocky technical climbs. While skills do vary from rider to rider you don't progress to that level without having solid skills. Some have no issues down 3ft drops at race pace going 150 bpm hear rate 60 seconds after charging up a climb.
    Having ridden a Process 153 recently as well as some more XC bikes (hei hei, Anthem and a shorter travel Norco) I honestly found the Process to be most fun of the full suspension and I still didn't enjoy climbing on any of them. Personally I think an aggressive hardtail is the best all rounder out there for me. I find the low, long slack to be a ton of fun but really I find the difference between 100mm and 150mm of rear travel to be less of a big deal compared to geometry. They both numb the trail to some extent compared to a hardtail.

    I think the lack of XC being "cool" comes from the fact that you see enduro/ dh riders hitting huge gaps and throwing out whips and while the speed and fitness of XC racers is insane it doesn't really look as cool. Also no man has ever looked cool in lycra and that is just a fact.

    I am just waiting for the Slopeduro bikes suggested in the other thread.
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  33. #33
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    I laugh at all the hatred for the name, and I think the bikes are pretty cool. If I had infinite dollars I'd have a couple of bikes that sit either side of my Endorphin, one for bigger terrain and something that looks a lot like a Downcountry bike for every-day and more mellow riding. SC Blur or similar with a 120mm 34, decent width rims and good rubber, and a carbon dropper of course...

  34. #34
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    Is this a late April Fools Joke...?

    WTF is happening to this world. Expensive XC bikes that weigh a lot, let's call a spade a spade.
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  35. #35
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    I did not want to get serious about this but........

    I saw Mike Levy racing the BCBR on such a bike. He was not far off the lead and obviously very skilled. What he is describing is a great choice for these types of races where there is a $hit ton of climbing and some descending that is not out of place in an enduro race. Is this a new thing? Certainly not. Has got me thinking that I should add a whip to the stable/quiver that's downcountry AF. I sure that last sentence will trigger a few folks.
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  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Legbacon View Post
    Has got me thinking that I should add a whip to the stable/quiver that's downcountry AF.
    Maybe get rid of everything else and this rig could be your "quiver killer".

  37. #37
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    What's actually happened is that all the good trail bikes got more travel, longer, lower and a slacker (because more is always better) leaving a gaping gap between them and true XC bikes. Downcountry is filling that gap.
    Do the math.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    It is just an XC bike with wider tires and perhaps a bigger fork.
    same as my xc bike for like 25 years now...


  39. #39
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    My brain read “low country boil”. I’m disappointed. Very.


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  40. #40
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    I can see the ad copy now:

    "Downcountry bikes: shorter, taller, less slack. You need this."

    "New school enduro (a.k.a. – upcountry) bikes. You need this."

  41. #41
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    I’m down, but ONLY if we remove the second “o”...

    Any votes for Down****ry? Anyone?
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  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    I can see the ad copy now:

    "Downcountry bikes: shorter, taller, less slack. You need this."
    I will finally be on the leading edge of MTB tech for the first time in 35 years!

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shartist View Post
    I’m down, but ONLY if we remove the second “o”...

    Any votes for Down****ry? Anyone?
    For the win ^^

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    I can see the ad copy now:

    "Downcountry bikes: shorter, taller, less slack. You need this."

    "New school enduro (a.k.a. – upcountry) bikes. You need this."
    It's not just marketing...the bike magazines need these new categories so they can justify rolling out the same old mass produced bikes in another "Huge! 12 Bike Downcountry Shoot-out!"
    MERCY! MERCY! MERCY!

  45. #45
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    How come there's never "i couldn't care less" option in these polls?
    NTFTC

  46. #46
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    caved in....
    just went downcountry

    and this is how it turned out

    Downcountry Poll-0616172107a.jpg
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    People have been ghetto modding their XC bikes now for a while - thinking they know better than the engineers that created them trying to turn them into trail bikes. So why not? Just make it official and give the people what they want.

  48. #48
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    The term doesn't bother me and makes me laugh.

    Now, if they come out with "downcountry" 144mm rear hub spacing my head will explode.
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  49. #49
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    I heard i9 is working on a downcountry version of the Hydra hub and engagement ring. HINT: the ring will be made from bamboo. they are still working on the pawls. they tried salami and it didn't work well, so next is possibly meow mix/banana combo
    "Put your seatbelt back on or get out and sit in the middle of that circle of death." - Johnny Scoot

  50. #50
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    Another bike category... ugh.

    My first off-road bike was called a "bike". Now, too many micro categories. Well, the four bikes in my garage right now are all called "bikes". Categorization not required.
    You didn't quit riding because you're old, you're old because you quit riding.

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by fredcook View Post
    Another bike category... ugh.

    My first off-road bike was called a "bike". Now, too many micro categories. Well, the four bikes in my garage right now are all called "bikes". Categorization not required.
    Yep, the exact reason I have ignored this thread. Categorizing has always irritated me. Every few years another “new” category that describes .. ah screw it I’m irritated.
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  52. #52
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    Do down countrybikes have a 2.35 instead of a 2.2 tire on the front? If so, sign me up! Off to buy a new bike!

    Installing a new tire on an already slacked out XC bike is unhead of! Maybe we can go wild an install a fox 34 like Trek did years ago!

  53. #53
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    I think there should be a term for each category of FS bike in 5mm rear travel increments starting at 90mm and ending at... Well as far as they can build them.

    90mm Wusspacking
    95mm hucktour
    100mm xc
    105mm shredcountry
    110mm down country
    115mm huckcountry
    120mm xc+
    125mm trail-curious
    130mm trail
    135mm sicktrail
    140mm all trail
    145mm shred Huck sick trail
    150mm shreduro
    155mm huckduro
    160mm Enduro
    165mm allduro
    170mm AM
    175mm down mountain
    180mm DH
    185mm DH+
    190mm redbull pissin
    195mm down Huck duro
    200mm sick downduro

    I think it's pretty clear

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  54. #54
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    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to tfinator again.
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  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by tfinator View Post
    I think there should be a term for each category of FS bike in 5mm rear travel increments starting at 90mm and ending at... Well as far as they can build them.

    90mm Wusspacking
    95mm hucktour
    100mm xc
    105mm shredcountry
    110mm down country
    115mm huckcountry
    120mm xc+
    125mm trail-curious
    130mm trail
    135mm sicktrail
    140mm all trail
    145mm shred Huck sick trail
    150mm shreduro
    155mm huckduro
    160mm Enduro
    165mm allduro
    170mm AM
    175mm down mountain
    180mm DH
    185mm DH+
    190mm redbull pissin
    195mm down Huck duro
    200mm sick downduro

    I think it's pretty clear

    Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk
    I like it, very clear.

    One problem though. I've got 153mm rear travel. Could you clarify what category it would be in? Does each category extend to the next size, or do the in betweeners need to further sub-categorize?

    Trailduro? Endurall? Allendure?

    :P

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by ocnLogan View Post
    I like it, very clear.

    One problem though. I've got 153mm rear travel. Could you clarify what category it would be in? Does each category extend to the next size, or do the in betweeners need to further sub-categorize?

    Trailduro? Endurall? Allendure?

    :P
    153mm no-h o m o
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  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by ocnLogan View Post
    I like it, very clear.

    One problem though. I've got 153mm rear travel. Could you clarify what category it would be in? Does each category extend to the next size, or do the in betweeners need to further sub-categorize?

    Trailduro? Endurall? Allendure?

    :P
    Any in betweens use the lower category but add another + sign.

    Jeez, I really have to spell it out for you all.

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  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by ocnLogan View Post
    I like it, very clear.

    One problem though. I've got 153mm rear travel. Could you clarify what category it would be in? Does each category extend to the next size, or do the in betweeners need to further sub-categorize?

    Trailduro? Endurall? Allendure?

    :P
    Some-mountain?

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by ocnLogan View Post
    But I mean, if a segment has a huge range, doesn't it also make sense that it could be segmented into smaller, but still distinct categories? That way you wouldn't have to say "its a sporty, efficient pedaling short travel trail bike" or a "longer travel trail bike that I race enduros with". You could just say "its an enduro bike", or similar.
    The problem is there are no hard and fast distinctions within trail. I can tell you definitively whether or not a bike is an XC race bike, trail bike or downhill bike. I cannot definitively tell you whether a bike is an all-mountain bike, enduro bike (drives me crazy, there are no enduro bikes and no enduro trails - only bikes and trails that are suited to enduro racing) or downcountry bike - no one can, it's just not a definitive term. As someone who sells bikes I'd much rather a customer ask me for long travel, burly trail bike than an 'enduro' bike. I know what to suggest with the first, the second I have to ask a bunch more questions.

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by tfinator View Post
    I think there should be a term for each category of FS bike in 5mm rear travel increments starting at 90mm and ending at... Well as far as they can build them.

    90mm Wusspacking
    95mm hucktour
    100mm xc
    105mm shredcountry
    110mm down country
    115mm huckcountry
    120mm xc+
    125mm trail-curious
    130mm trail
    135mm sicktrail
    140mm all trail
    145mm shred Huck sick trail
    150mm shreduro
    155mm huckduro
    160mm Enduro
    165mm allduro
    170mm AM
    175mm down mountain
    180mm DH
    185mm DH+
    190mm redbull pissin
    195mm down Huck duro
    200mm sick downduro

    I think it's pretty clear

    Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk
    But what about hardtails and rigid. Clearly we need about 50 categories for those too.
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  61. #61
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    Downcountry is just heavy XC or light trail. No need for a new category of bikes!

  62. #62
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    Someone needs to develop an "All-Category" category of mountain bike.

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by tfinator View Post
    I think there should be a term for each category of FS bike in 5mm rear travel increments starting at 90mm and ending at... Well as far as they can build them.

    90mm Wusspacking
    95mm hucktour
    100mm xc
    105mm shredcountry
    110mm down country
    115mm huckcountry
    120mm xc+
    125mm trail-curious
    130mm trail
    135mm sicktrail
    140mm all trail
    145mm shred Huck sick trail
    150mm shreduro
    155mm huckduro
    160mm Enduro
    165mm allduro
    170mm AM
    175mm down mountain
    180mm DH
    185mm DH+
    190mm redbull pissin
    195mm down Huck duro
    200mm sick downduro

    I think it's pretty clear

    Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk
    Damn, my Dragon is 80mm. I guess I can't ride it anymore.

    Oh, wait, it's a hardtail!
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  64. #64
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    Big brands are always late to the party. We were building these bikes twenty years ago for Super D, which then evolved into the long low slack bikes we ride today. Those who don't know history repeat themselves.

    My first Super D race bike was a 98 Rocky Mountain Element with four inches of travel front and rear with DH components.
    Ripping trails and tipping ales

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    Someone needs to develop an "All-Category" category of mountain bike.
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  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDwayyo View Post
    The problem is there are no hard and fast distinctions within trail. I can tell you definitively whether or not a bike is an XC race bike, trail bike or downhill bike. I cannot definitively tell you whether a bike is an all-mountain bike, enduro bike (drives me crazy, there are no enduro bikes and no enduro trails - only bikes and trails that are suited to enduro racing) or downcountry bike - no one can, it's just not a definitive term. As someone who sells bikes I'd much rather a customer ask me for long travel, burly trail bike than an 'enduro' bike. I know what to suggest with the first, the second I have to ask a bunch more questions.
    Sure, I can get some of that. I agree that an XC bike is easy to spot in a showroom, same with a true DH bike, and because of that, anything else you can say is likely in the trail category somewhere.

    I do think that the term "enduro" bike is likely to stick at this point though. Mostly, because in many different sports (this one included), if you have a racing/competitive series based on it, the bikes/cars/motorcycles/whatever that rule that racing series tend to be defined by that name (motocross bikes, enduro motorcycles, cyclocross bikes, time trials bikes, drag racing, etc, etc, etc)

    So, on the upside for most people disliking the term, IMO, it means that terms like "downcountry", or "small mountain" are less likely to stick.

    Unless of course Cross Country racing changes its name... and then we're all doomed.

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by tfinator View Post
    Any in betweens use the lower category but add another + sign.

    Jeez, I really have to spell it out for you all.

    Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk
    Yes please. What I thought was my DH bike has 228mm travel. I'm so confused.
    No dig no whine

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by twd953 View Post
    Yes please. What I thought was my DH bike has 228mm travel. I'm so confused.
    ...
    200mm sickdownduro
    205mm down gravity
    210mm shuttle cross
    215mm shuttleshred
    220mm gravity shuttle cross
    225mm Danny Hart's penis

    So you're Danny Hart's Penis +

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  69. #69
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    ^lolwtf
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    I ride SuperAllDownDuroMountainCross with 700c and 113.7mm travel out back and 27.5" on a rigid whalebone fork up front.



    And it's a tricycle but I traded one wheel for a dropper because SuperAllDownDuroMountainCross

  71. #71
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    I don't need bikes of all kinds, teh Pinkbikes says my bike does everything well just like all the other bikes
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  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by tfinator View Post
    ...
    200mm sickdownduro
    205mm down gravity
    210mm shuttle cross
    215mm shuttleshred
    220mm gravity shuttle cross
    225mm Danny Hart's penis

    So you're Danny Hart's Penis +

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    "How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big" - Rob Warner
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  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by twd953 View Post
    "How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big" - Rob Warner
    My buddy who does not bike at all still laughs at that and brings it up because it was such a good line after an insane few minutes of commentary (and even more insane riding).

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  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vader View Post
    Big brands are always late to the party. We were building these bikes twenty years ago for Super D, which then evolved into the long low slack bikes we ride today. Those who don't know history repeat themselves.

    My first Super D race bike was a 98 Rocky Mountain Element with four inches of travel front and rear with DH components.
    It was more than super D racing, though. I never went anywhere near that sort of event, but 20+yrs ago, all a person could find were downhill bikes and cross country bikes. I took cross country bikes and replaced worn/broken parts with their heavier duty counterparts since that suited my riding better.

    I called it "aggressive xc" back then. Avoids confusion with existing definitions of "downcountry"

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    It was more than super D racing, though. I never went anywhere near that sort of event, but 20+yrs ago, all a person could find were downhill bikes and cross country bikes. I took cross country bikes and replaced worn/broken parts with their heavier duty counterparts since that suited my riding better.

    I called it "aggressive xc" back then. Avoids confusion with existing definitions of "downcountry"
    One point though, don't most "downcountry" bikes have a bit more relaxed geo, compared to a full on race bike? I thought that was some of the point to them, instead of a 70 degree HTA, something more in the 67-68 range (at least atm)?

    Again, I'm new at all of this, but I thought they were a bit more than just "we slapped a fox 34 and some DHF's on this, and called it a downcountry bike"?

    What about calling them a "small mountain" bike, which, is a bit more descriptive than downcountry, and maybe makes more sense, which may offend people less.

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by tfinator View Post
    My buddy who does not bike at all still laughs at that and brings it up because it was such a good line after an insane few minutes of commentary (and even more insane riding).

    Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk
    Yeah....I went back and re-watched the whole run after that post. I've crossed paths with Danny a few times in Whistler, but I'm not the type to impose on someone "famous" so I never asked him how he sits down.
    No dig no whine

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by ocnLogan View Post
    One point though, don't most "downcountry" bikes have a bit more relaxed geo, compared to a full on race bike? I thought that was some of the point to them, instead of a 70 degree HTA, something more in the 67-68 range (at least atm)?

    Again, I'm new at all of this, but I thought they were a bit more than just "we slapped a fox 34 and some DHF's on this, and called it a downcountry bike"?

    What about calling them a "small mountain" bike, which, is a bit more descriptive than downcountry, and maybe makes more sense, which may offend people less.
    it's just subtleties. Lots of people who did this 20yrs ago would add a longer fork specifically to slack the bike out and get it to handle better downhill. I never did because I never had the money back then. The point is that nothing about them is new. Absolutely nothing. Just the word. And it's not a good word, either.

    All you have now is that the "modern geometry" trend confounds what makes a "downcountry" bike. Which is nothing that warrants more marketing bullshit.

  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by 93EXCivic View Post
    But what about hardtails and rigid. Clearly we need about 50 categories for those too.
    Upcountry?
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  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    It was more than super D racing, though. I never went anywhere near that sort of event, but 20+yrs ago, all a person could find were downhill bikes and cross country bikes. I took cross country bikes and replaced worn/broken parts with their heavier duty counterparts since that suited my riding better.

    I called it "aggressive xc" back then. Avoids confusion with existing definitions of "downcountry"
    I found an old pic of the 98 Element. Four inches in the front, three and a half in the back, both coil n oil. Ryno Lite DH rims. Short Azonic DH stem, Magura hydros, one of the first PUSH tuned shocks, when they were still in CA, with a Mountain Speed (MRP) spring. I later won the 2002 Cal St Super D Series with this set up.

    Funny thing is you think you're doing something unique, then a video like Kranked comes out and you find it's going on everywhere.

    Same thing with the current geo. I designed a bike with long low slack geo in 2005 and a year later see other custom bikes with the same concept at Downiville in 06.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Downcountry Poll-20160731_152700.jpg  

    Ripping trails and tipping ales

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vader View Post
    I found an old pic of the 98 Element. Four inches in the front, three and a half in the back, both coil n oil. Ryno Lite DH rims. Short Azonic DH stem, Magura hydros, one of the first PUSH tuned shocks, when they were still in CA, with a Mountain Speed (MRP) spring. I later won the 2002 Cal St Super D Series with this set up.

    Funny thing is you think you're doing something unique, then a video like Kranked comes out and you find it's going on everywhere.

    Same thing with the current geo. I designed a bike with long low slack geo in 2005 and a year later see other custom bikes with the same concept at Downiville in 06.
    I was on my 1998 RM DH race with 6” up front,5.5 out back, 3 rings....so Enduro..
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  81. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    I was on my 1998 RM DH race with 6” up front,5.5 out back, 3 rings....so Enduro..
    I had one of those too. Where'd you get yours? I picked mine up at Fat Tire Farm in Portland. One of the only RM importers at the time.

    What surprises me is that was only a one year model run and I never saw a single magazine review.

    A bike ahead of it's time. Slack head angle and 155mm of rear suspension. It was RM's DH frame but set up for trail use. It didn't even have disc tabs.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Downcountry Poll-p4pb9319171.jpg  

    Ripping trails and tipping ales

  82. #82
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    downcountry is just another type of riding I will be using my Krampus for....or I might have already been doing that
    Go practice. Figure it out. - Fleas

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  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vader View Post
    I had one of those too. Where'd you get yours? I picked mine up at Fat Tire Farm in Portland. One of the only RM importers at the time.

    What surprises me is that was only a one year model run and I never saw a single magazine review.

    A bike ahead of it's time. Slack head angle and 155mm of rear suspension. It was RM's DH frame but set up for trail use. It didn't even have disc tabs.
    Yep, that’s it. Don’t remember where I ordered it from, boxxer up front, ran Magura HS33s.

  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Yep, that’s it. Don’t remember where I ordered it from, boxxer up front, ran Magura HS33s.
    That frame wasn't mine. I had a Mr T and HS33's. A heavy bike but I was in my 20's.

    That was the last complete bike I bought. Sorry LBS's.
    Ripping trails and tipping ales

  85. #85
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    was the rocker mountain sherpa a "downcountry" bike?

    their web page labels it as "overland". will "overland" become yet another category?

    thing is, it's 27.5+.

    https://www.bikes.com/en/bikes/sherpa/2016

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    Quote Originally Posted by shekky View Post
    was the rocker mountain sherpa a "downcountry" bike?

    their web page labels it as "overland". will "overland" become yet another category?

    thing is, it's 27.5+.

    https://www.bikes.com/en/bikes/sherpa/2016
    Downcountry+?

    :P.

    Looks like a bikepacking bike to me, and, I actually think in this instance the category name fits it perfectly. "Overlanding" is essentially exactly what bikepacking is, and its the term that's been in place for years by the 4x4, ATV, and motorcycle crowds.

    Bikepacking sounds awesome. I'm going to have to give that a try sometime.

  87. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by ocnLogan View Post
    Downcountry+?
    Or just plain old Country?

    “I’m going country biking today.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by ocnLogan View Post
    Sure, I can get some of that. I agree that an XC bike is easy to spot in a showroom, same with a true DH bike, and because of that, anything else you can say is likely in the trail category somewhere.
    I'm not talking about the showroom floor, I'm talking about when looking at a specs sheet... Where does trail stop and AM start? Where does AM stop and enduro start? Why are so many people racing enduro on trail and AM bikes? There are not solid answers to those questions, which to me is a sign that the terms are BS.

    Quote Originally Posted by ocnLogan View Post
    I do think that the term "enduro" bike is likely to stick at this point though. Mostly, because in many different sports (this one included), if you have a racing/competitive series based on it, the bikes/cars/motorcycles/whatever that rule that racing series tend to be defined by that name (motocross bikes, enduro motorcycles, cyclocross bikes, time trials bikes, drag racing, etc, etc, etc)
    I would be more inclined to accept the term enduro if it were applied better. For most it means the longest travel (170ish) end of trail bikes, but that's not a very good indicator of whether or not a bike will be good for enduro. It'd be much more accurate if it applied to burly trail bikes with weight-conscious builds designed for racing - drivetrain and the rest of the build matter just as much, if not more, than suspension travel.

    That's actually where this downcountry thing comes from - recognizing that not all short travel bikes are designed for racing. In that way I think downcountry is actually more useful than enduro as a bike category.

  89. #89
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    downcountry starts here




    always have my Brommie with me, cuz downcountry can sneak up any moment

    note the Fred stiff-arm stance... true downcountry style
    "Put your seatbelt back on or get out and sit in the middle of that circle of death." - Johnny Scoot

  90. #90
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    The industry is working towards mtbing requiring a chase vehicle caring your full quiver so that you can swap out to the proper bike as the requirements change along your ride.
    By continuing to browse my posts, you agree to send me cookies.

  91. #91
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    This is the next step in mountain bike evolution. I expect to see this term used (even though it doesn't mean a God damned thing) in bike company ads within 1-2 years (or less) as a means of marketing.

    A mountain bike is a mountain bike and that it all.

    Classifications crack me up. One day, we will have to be licensed under the appropriate class in order to ride off road. Mark my words...
    life is... "All About Bikes"...

  92. #92
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    Downcountry Poll-dc.jpg
    "Put your seatbelt back on or get out and sit in the middle of that circle of death." - Johnny Scoot

  93. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDwayyo View Post

    I would be more inclined to accept the term enduro if it were applied better. For most it means the longest travel (170ish) end of trail bikes, but that's not a very good indicator of whether or not a bike will be good for enduro. It'd be much more accurate if it applied to burly trail bikes with weight-conscious builds designed for racing - drivetrain and the rest of the build matter just as much, if not more, than suspension travel.
    Somebody on here claimed that a cyclocross bike doesn't exist as type of bike unless you race it because "cyclocross" describes a race and not a bike (or something to that effect). Therefore, do enduro bikes exist if the owner doesn't sign up for enduro events?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    Somebody on here claimed that a cyclocross bike doesn't exist as type of bike unless you race it because "cyclocross" describes a race and not a bike (or something to that effect). Therefore, do enduro bikes exist if the owner doesn't sign up for enduro events?
    I'd argue that cyclocross bikes are so specifically designed for cyclocross racing (very different from gravel bikes even) that they actually do deserve their own category. Enduro on the other hand can be raced on literally any trail bike with no issue, so I don't think it's distinct enough to warrant its own category regardless of whether or not the owner races.

    Also, there wasn't an existing category for cyclocross bikes before they started calling them that. They are a new category that has developed for those types of races. Trail bikes are literally the oldest and most common category and need no modifications to be enduro ready.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    Somebody on here claimed that a cyclocross bike doesn't exist as type of bike unless you race it because "cyclocross" describes a race and not a bike (or something to that effect). Therefore, do enduro bikes exist if the owner doesn't sign up for enduro events?
    I would generally agree with that, as I’ve struggled to understand the difference between “Enduro” and “all mountain”. Same exact usage to me, the AM is one I can ride park with and still take out on big rides.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    Or just plain old Country?

    “I’m going country biking today.”
    I like where you're headed with that. As opposed to "urban assault" rides and "urban downhill" races. We can say, I'm going for a "country assault" ride, or hey, you going to do the "country downhill" race this weekend?

    Crap, two more categories, need to build up two more bikes.
    No dig no whine

  97. #97
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    This is getting too elaborate. It is just XC bikes progressing with technology/innovation just like trail bikes have in the last several years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDwayyo View Post
    Personally, I think three categories cover things just fine - XC race bike, trail bike, downhill bike. Anything in between those three gets too subjective to be meaningful in any distinct way. Sure, that leaves a wide range in the trail category - but that makes sense given the wide range of 'trail riding.' Is it really such a big deal to say 'it's a long travel trail bike' or 'it's a lightweight trail bike?'
    The average guy riding a trail bike on average trails has little in common with a AM/Enduro guy basically riding DH trails on a bike that can climb. I don't really care about categories but...

    Down country is just a different spin on a trail bike.

  99. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDwayyo View Post
    I'd argue that cyclocross bikes are so specifically designed for cyclocross racing (very different from gravel bikes even) that they actually do deserve their own category. Enduro on the other hand can be raced on literally any trail bike with no issue, so I don't think it's distinct enough to warrant its own category regardless of whether or not the owner races.

    Also, there wasn't an existing category for cyclocross bikes before they started calling them that. They are a new category that has developed for those types of races. Trail bikes are literally the oldest and most common category and need no modifications to be enduro ready.
    While I agree with your post, cyclocross isn't new, it predates mountain biking as we know it by a long shot.
    First cyclocross world championship was held in 1950, with other cyclocross races dating back to early 1900s. https://www.primaleurope.com/blogs/n...-of-cyclocross

    Commonly available mass produced cross bikes sold by most major bike brands sold in the US is somewhat new. It wasn't until the early 2000s that cross became more mainstream in the US and all the major us bike brands like Specialized, Trek, Giant added cross bikes to their lineups, though there were a few mass produced cross bikes before that like Bianchi and Ritchey to name a couple.

    I have no problem with a bike designed for a specific racing discipline being categorized by that name be it XC, DH, or CX. Enduro, as a bike category is a lot more nebulous as I don't think there is an agreed upon standard as to what an Enduro race bike is or should be.

    I do think saying I'm going for a "cyclocross ride" is silly. No, you're riding your cyclocross bike on trails. Likewise, I think saying "I'm going on an Enduro ride" is silly. No, you're riding a mountain bike that could be used for Enduro racing on trails that may or may not be suitable as an Enduro race course......you know...."mountain biking."

    You think these debates are about bike mountain bike categories are inane? I used to frequent the cyclocross forum on roadbikereview for the dozen or so years I was heavily into cross racing. There were endless debates about things like whether having bottle cage mounts on a frame disqualified a bike from being a cyclocross bike.

    Now that I think about it, maybe that is the distinction between an AM bike and an Enduro bike. AM bikes have water bottle mounts.
    No dig no whine

  100. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    I would generally agree with that, as I’ve struggled to understand the difference between “Enduro” and “all mountain”. Same exact usage to me, the AM is one I can ride park with and still take out on big rides.
    From a bike perspective they are mostly the same thing. From a riding perspective. AM is style of riding. Pace can be fast or casual. Enduro is a race format. There is starting to be new type of "enduro" bikes that are super long. Great for blasting down steeps fast, but have to be ridden hard to turn. SB150 comes to mind. Ride these more casually and they lose their feel a bit. Subtle difference, but a case of racing driving the design more than the average rider. Not saying this is bad, but just something to understand.
    Joe
    '18 Specialized Epic 29", Vassago Verhauen SS 29", '13 Santa Cruz Solo 27.5", XC, AM, blah blah blah.. I just ride.

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