Could this be the future of eMTBs?- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Could this be the future of eMTBs?

    So I know some dirt ebikes exist, such as the KTM one and now thereís this one: a Segway. I watched a video and it looks fun actually! This thing looks like a cross between a MTB and a dirt bike.

    Anyways, to me eMTBs are just odd with the pedal assist and I would never get one.

    Now, what if Segway took their Dirt eBike and used this formula in a MTB? Letís say 50-60 lbs, MTB geo, 20 mph max speed, etc. Make it into a full electric MTB. I know some regulations wouldnít allow it, however, if the specs stayed somewhat close to MTB specs I am sure it would be allowed in trails.

    Would something like this be the next step in eMTBs?




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    There used to be a time people would go ride their bike for exercise

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    Quote Originally Posted by Train Wreck View Post
    There used to be a time people would go ride their bike for exercise
    I agree. I do it for exercise too. But gotta admit, this would be a cool option.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Engineer90 View Post
    I agree. I do it for exercise too. But gotta admit, this would be a cool option.


    Why not just get the Segway?

    Gotta admit that thing looks pretty fun!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Engineer90 View Post
    So I know some dirt ebikes exist, such as the KTM one and now thereís this one: a Segway. I watched a video and it looks fun actually! This thing looks like a cross between a MTB and a dirt bike.

    Anyways, to me eMTBs are just odd with the pedal assist and I would never get one.

    Now, what if Segway took their Dirt eBike and used this formula in a MTB? Letís say 50-60 lbs, MTB geo, 20 mph max speed, etc. Make it into a full electric MTB. I know some regulations wouldnít allow it, however, if the specs stayed somewhat close to MTB specs I am sure it would be allowed in trails.

    Would something like this be the next step in eMTBs?




    This is the future of e-motorcycles but is not an ebike. No pedals just a throttle.

    Put this on a trail and watch your trail get shut down as soon as people see these on it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockcrusher View Post
    Put this on a trail and watch your trail get shut down as soon as people see these on it.
    Right, I'm not saying this exact model. I'm saying a much lighter and way downtuned model that is as close to MTB specs as possible.

    The Dirt eBike as is, yes I fully agree this is NOT something I'd like to see on the trails. And I've seen trails before where eMTBs are prohibited.
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Why not just get the Segway?

    Gotta admit that thing looks pretty fun!
    It does look very fun doesn't it?! I've always wondered if I should get into dirt bikes too, but they always scared me because they just bulky and big motorcycles. Now this, at 100 lbs and "compact" size... seems like a way better choice.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Engineer90 View Post
    Right, I'm not saying this exact model. I'm saying a much lighter and way downtuned model that is as close to MTB specs as possible.


    Sort of like a class 1 ebike?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Engineer90 View Post
    Right, I'm not saying this exact model. I'm saying a much lighter and way downtuned model that is as close to MTB specs as possible.

    The Dirt eBike as is, yes I fully agree this is NOT something I'd like to see on the trails. And I've seen trails before where eMTBs are prohibited.
    I mean I don't get what is so amazing about this that other ebikes don't have? is it just the moto aspect of it? I think once you added pedal assist to make it an ebike and pedals it would be much less fun. Thus the separation between e motorcycle and ebike.
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Sort of like a class 1 ebike?
    Oh wow, is this classification a Cali thing only? Never heard of it before.

    I guess yeah like a pedal-less class 1 dirt ebike MTB. Even 20 mph limit would probably still be too fast for a MTB like full ebike in single track.
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    No. Theres no question that would be Anmotorized vehicle. Im not anti class 1 e bikes, in fact i can possibly see one in my future if needed.
    The other issue is practicality, could you make what youre saying that would run more than 45 minutes? What youre proposing is basically all the specs of a class 1 ebike, but its all ethrottle. You need a bigger motor, means you need more batteries, but it would weight the same as current ebikes?
    Oh, and guarantee first thing people will do is download the hacks to remove speed limiter.
    If youre going eMX, just go eMX and run it on MX Trails.
    BTW, 20 mph on trails is pretty darn fast, i challenge anyone to do 20 mph on the flats of your trail thats shared with other users. Heck, 20mph on paved path shared with pedestrians, dog walker, etc with clear sight lines is hairy and too much!

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockcrusher View Post
    I mean I don't get what is so amazing about this that other ebikes don't have? is it just the moto aspect of it? I think once you added pedal assist to make it an ebike and pedals it would be much less fun. Thus the separation between e motorcycle and ebike.
    Yeah I think it's cool because of the moto aspect of it imo. The whole electric pedal assist is something I'd never do, but a full eMTB without pedal would be a cool toy to have.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taroroot View Post
    BTW, 20 mph on trails is pretty darn fast, i challenge anyone to do 20 mph on the flats of your trail thats shared with other users. Heck, 20mph on paved path shared with pedestrians, dog walker, etc with clear sight lines is hairy and too much!
    What's the fastest speed, on average, a MTB can reach in single track? Maybe 10-15 mph?

    I've never been able to see how fast I've gone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Engineer90 View Post
    Yeah I think it's cool because of the moto aspect of it imo. The whole electric pedal assist is something I'd never do, but a full eMTB without pedal would be a cool toy to have.
    yeah this is a pretty sensitive subject in the US. A emoto, especially if it was low powered and could get onto mountain bike trails would be very polarizing here. Heck where i live ebikes are not allowed on any county park trails, any class of them. I think it is the same as state land as well.

    I think this would be fun on a track or in an OHV area, but I think I would prefer a larger moto in an OHV area.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Engineer90 View Post
    What's the fastest speed, on average, a MTB can reach in single track? Maybe 10-15 mph?

    I've never been able to see how fast I've gone.



    Depends on the trail, anywhere from about 6 to 60 mph.


    I say just go for the Segway, it's available now for only $3,500. Why less power?
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockcrusher View Post
    yeah this is a pretty sensitive subject in the US. A emoto, especially if it was low powered and could get onto mountain bike trails would be very polarizing here. Heck where i live ebikes are not allowed on any county park trails, any class of them. I think it is the same as state land as well.
    I wonder what the consensus would be for something like this. You're very right, it would be polarizing. But, there will be some who do get them. I remember when the eMTBs first started, most MTBers hated them, myself included and still don't like them. However, I've seen a few on the trail. So maybe it's something that would encounter a lot of hate at first but might see some acceptance slowly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Depends on the trail, anywhere from about 6 to 60 mph.


    I say just go for the Segway, it's available now for only $3,500. Why less power?
    Dirt bikes are prohibited nearly in every trail system in NJ. I've seen dirt bikers literally getting their bikes confiscated and ticketed. Even with that, I've see a lot of them with the balls to do it illegally. I would have gotten into it if this wasn't the case. PA is a good option but always a far drive.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Engineer90 View Post
    I wonder what the consensus would be for something like this. You're very right, it would be polarizing. But, there will be some who do get them. I remember when the eMTBs first started, most MTBers hated them, myself included and still don't like them. However, I've seen a few on the trail. So maybe it's something that would encounter a lot of hate at first but might see some acceptance slowly.
    I doubt a non pedal ebike would make any progress on sharing trails with bikes and pedestrians. There was a lot of work to gain pedal bikes access to trails based on the fact that they were not motorized. Now people are making the argument that ebikes should be allowed as just assisted pedal bikes. A pure throttle bike would be a really tough sell. I opens the window to how you police trails to ensure that people aren't using higher and higher power motorcycles. Modded ebikes at the least can be pedaled along but a modded motorcycle would just get the trails shut down for sure. Even if it wasn't modded, the method of riding a throttle/peg bike would be much different than pedaling a bike and could contribute to trail creep or accelerated erosion.

    I would be really interested in an electric motorbike for exploring trails and riding from home without the carbon footprint but would never consider using one on any trail, even this thing, which is quite close to a mountain bike but is most definitely not one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Engineer90 View Post
    What's the fastest speed, on average, a MTB can reach in single track? Maybe 10-15 mph?

    I've never been able to see how fast I've gone.
    Itd be an eye opener to see what youre actually doing. I consider myself a bit above average fit 50+ year old rider who rides ~70 miles/week recently. On my road bike on flats with no headwind i can maintain about 20mph. With a good tailwind on my commutes i can maybe sustain 25 In spots. Going home typically its a strong headwind and ill average 13mph for entire stretch, sustaining maybe 15-17 most of it. Max i reach on dh road is 40, id be frightened to get close to that on trail!
    On technical trails its way slow. The quicky trail i do here is 3-4 miles long and if you dont stop Long can manage it under an hour.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taroroot View Post
    Itd be an eye opener to see what youre actually doing. I consider myself a bit above average fit 50+ year old rider who rides ~70 miles/week recently. On my road bike on flats with no headwind i can maintain about 20mph. With a good tailwind on my commutes i can maybe sustain 25 In spots. Going home typically its a strong headwind and ill average 13mph for entire stretch, sustaining maybe 15-17 most of it. Max i reach on dh road is 40, id be frightened to get close to that on trail!
    On technical trails its way slow. The quicky trail i do here is 3-4 miles long and if you dont stop Long can manage it under an hour.
    LOL I stand corrected.

    I guess a full eMTB might have to be limited at 10 mph.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Train Wreck View Post
    There used to be a time people would go ride their bike for exercise
    Depends on how you ride and what that bike is capable of, but it is important to note that moto/supermoto-cross is probably the most physically demanding sport in the world.
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    Quote Originally Posted by singletrackmack View Post
    Depends on how you ride and what that bike is capable of, but it is important to note that moto/supermoto-cross is probably the most physically demanding sport in the world.
    In it's own way. How do you think a supermoto-cross rider would do in the Tour de France?
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    In it's own way. How do you think a supermoto-cross rider would do in the Tour de France?
    Pretty well since he would be riding a motorcycle
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    I was test riding a Trek power fly(E-bike) ,it has a speedo . I was in the trail mode (not the highest) on a flat fire road , I look at the speedo and I was doing 16mph. Wasn't trying to go that fast. We have some steep fire roads around here ,I once hit 42 mph on my mountain bike on one of them. A friend told me of someone he knew hitting 51 mph. If you want to see what mph you do on your trails ,get one of the gps based apps , Strava or Map my ride ,there are others.

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    With all of these new e-bikes and everyone riding them, soon mountain bikers will be as fat as everyone else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Train Wreck View Post
    There used to be a time people would go ride their bike for exercise
    This is what I thought before my dad bought one and I rode it a few times. It is as much exercise as you want it to be, and if youíre climbing steep trails youíre going to get your heart rate way up no matter how much assist itís giving you.

    I love climbing, so naturally I wanted to see how fast I could climb. Fast! 20mph uphill. But thatís while pedaling as hard as I could.

    My dad rides all the time now.

    Iím not planning on getting one though.

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    I can only imagine not hearing an ebike approaching at speed and coming round the corner. I didn't hear the RM 250 that hit me head on. He motored off after we checked to make sure we were both OK. I walked out (no cell service) with a destroyed custom full sus frame and a split rim and two broken wrists. I flew 30 something feet and after we both scrubbed off speed, it was still probably a combined impact of 60mph.

    He obviously wasn't suppossed there and I was doing over double the 25mph limit so I shared fault. I posted the video on the old format here but it's long gone.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rangeriderdave View Post
    I was test riding a Trek power fly(E-bike) ,it has a speedo . I was in the trail mode (not the highest) on a flat fire road , I look at the speedo and I was doing 16mph.
    Did you do 16 mph pedaling at the highest gear with the pedal assist?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vader View Post
    I can only imagine not hearing an ebike approaching at speed and coming round the corner. I didn't hear the RM 250 that hit me head on. He motored off after we checked to make sure we were both OK. I walked out (no cell service) with a destroyed custom full sus frame and a split rim and two broken wrists. I flew 30 something feet and after we both scrubbed off speed, it was still probably a combined impact of 60mph.

    He obviously wasn't suppossed there and I was doing over double the 25mph limit so I shared fault. I posted the video on the old format here but it's long gone.
    Holy crap

    Was he in MTB trails with a dirt bike?!

    That's insane... should've pictured him or something and sued him.
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  30. #30
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    I don't know about you guys but for the kind of money an ebike costs I can buy me a bad ass dirt bike or ATV. I'm a live and let live person. But I too thought the purpose of mountain biking was exercise and fun together. Who knows?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Engineer90 View Post
    Holy crap

    Was he in MTB trails with a dirt bike?!

    That's insane... should've pictured him or something and sued him.
    It was a rutted out little used fire road. He wasn't supposed to be on it and I was well over the 25mph speed limit. He was on a clapped out POS dirt bike and didnt look to have any money. It wasnt worth the time. It was a fun DH time trial but I lost the nerve after that, went back once, tiptoed down and never went back.
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    In it's own way. How do you think a supermoto-cross rider would do in the Tour de France?
    Whatís your point? How do you think a Tour de France rider would do riding super moto? Or how do you think a Tour de France rider would do playing rugby?

    Look it up if you donít think supermoto-cross is one of the most physically demanding sports in the world. Personally, I donít really give a shit which is more demanding, just pointing out what it is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by singletrackmack View Post
    Whatís your point? How do you think a Tour de France rider would do riding super moto? Or how do you think a Tour de France rider would do playing rugby?

    Look it up if you donít think supermoto-cross is one of the most physically demanding sports in the world. Personally, I donít really give a shit which is more demanding, just pointing out what it is.



    You seem angry.
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    You seem angry.
    Why, because I used a cuss word? You do realize your avatar is of a biker giving the bird in both directions. Thatís anger.

    As I said, I really donít give a shit, just pointing out what it is. Not sure how you could think someone who doesnít give a shit about something would be angry about it.

    As a side note though, pretty sure a moto-cross racer, or rugby player (given they know how to ride a bike) could hop on a road bike and race just fine. Sure, wouldnít be anywhere as fast as a pro cyclist, but they could do it. However, I doubt a Tour de France racer would last very long or get anywhere at all on a moto-cross track or last but a few minutes in a rugby match. Those sports require an extremely high level all around full body fitness, coordination and skills. Most anyone can hop on a road bike and ride.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vader View Post
    I can only imagine not hearing an ebike approaching at speed and coming round the corner. I didn't hear the RM 250 that hit me head on. He motored off after we checked to make sure we were both OK. I walked out (no cell service) with a destroyed custom full sus frame and a split rim and two broken wrists. I flew 30 something feet and after we both scrubbed off speed, it was still probably a combined impact of 60mph.

    He obviously wasn't suppossed there and I was doing over double the 25mph limit so I shared fault. I posted the video on the old format here but it's long gone.
    never thought of the noise aspect. that's an issue. like I see the "loud pipes save lives" a lot around my area. like the people that get hit by the rail here in Phoenix. they say they don't hear it coming. It's a train....

    I used to do gas rc stuff. Now that electric is so easy I don't have any gas stuff left. everything is brushless and lipo. an eMX would be cool, but i'll keep my mtb.
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    Quote Originally Posted by singletrackmack View Post

    As a side note though, pretty sure a moto-cross racer, or rugby player (given they know how to ride a bike) could hop on a road bike and race just fine. Sure, wouldnít be anywhere as fast as a pro cyclist, but they could do it. However, I doubt a Tour de France racer would last very long or get anywhere at all on a moto-cross track or last but a few minutes in a rugby match. Those sports require an extremely high level all around full body fitness, coordination and skills. Most anyone can hop on a road bike and ride.


    By "race just fine" do you mean get dropped immediately and then ride in solo? I have a feeling a moto racer would struggle just as much in a (road) bike race as a pro cyclist would struggle in a moto race. Like I said before both sports are extremely demanding in their own ways.
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    By "race just fine" do you mean get dropped immediately and then ride in solo? I have a feeling a moto racer would struggle just as much in a (road) bike race as a pro cyclist would struggle in a moto race. Like I said before both sports are extremely demanding in their own ways.
    Yes, both very demanding. However, one also requires a great deal of other physical attributes besides endurance, like skill and coordination as well as upper/lower body and core strength and extremely fast reactions with great hand eye coordination. The other just requires endurance, like running or swimming, so no where near the level of physical fitness, skills and coordination needed as other sports.

    And yes, the moto guy would get smoked by the road bikers, but he could finish solo, while a road biker most likely wouldnít be able to get very far if anywhere at all in a moto-cross race let alone coming close to finishing something like a super motocross race. A road biker would have to go through a crazy amount of training, practicing, crashing, weightlifting etc just to be able to do a lap. Pretty much anyone can enter a marathon or ride a bike for a long distance. May not be fast, but easily done.
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    Quote Originally Posted by singletrackmack View Post

    And yes, the moto guy would get smoked by the road bikers, but he could finish solo, while a road biker most likely wouldnít be able to get very far if anywhere at all in a moto-cross race let alone coming close to finishing something like a super motocross race. A road biker would have to go through a crazy amount of training, practicing, crashing, weightlifting etc just to be able to do a lap. Pretty much anyone can enter a marathon or ride a bike for a long distance. May not be fast, but easily done.
    Why couldn't the roadie pootle round the moto course at 10kmh or even 20kmh? Pretty easy to get (slow) lap complete. It's still a motorbike, plenty of out shape people ride them all the time.

  39. #39
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    Here's the pedal version of it.

    Could this be the future of eMTBs?-sur-ron_pedal-ki.jpg
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    Based on this video, I don't think it'd be fun on some MTB trails that I call my favorite. Would be overkill...

    Some of the epics I've done would turn into a totally different kind of ride altogether, unlike MTB, if I tried them aboard this...

    I imagine that it begs for gnarlier and/or more open speedier terrain, but I can't judge for real since I haven't ridden one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varaxis View Post
    Based on this video, I don't think it'd be fun on some MTB trails that I call my favorite. Would be overkill...
    As is, yes. Way overkill.

    That's why I said it would be cool if it was downtuned and small version to become half of what it is: 50-60 lbs, MTB geo, 10 mph speed limit, 60 mile range, etc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    By "race just fine" do you mean get dropped immediately and then ride in solo? I have a feeling a moto racer would struggle just as much in a (road) bike race as a pro cyclist would struggle in a moto race. Like I said before both sports are extremely demanding in their own ways.
    A lot of MotoGP & world Superbike riders cycle. Nicky Hayden unfortunately probably the most well known. Similar lean muscle mass required for both disciplines. Where they'd finish in relation to one another on a race track -pure speculation. I'd say they will level, reaction time, hand eye coordination would be FAR greater riding a 300hp 350km/hr ground missile around a race track than pedaling up and down hills.

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    [/QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Mudguard View Post
    Why couldn't the roadie pootle round the moto course at 10kmh or even 20kmh? Pretty easy to get (slow) lap complete. It's still a motorbike, plenty of out shape people ride them all the time.
    Sorry, Iím not hip to the proper moto terminology as I donít ride moto, but I was really thinking more of what my brother-in-lawís brother used to race; endurocross. Thereís no way to pootle

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    Quote Originally Posted by singletrackmack View Post

    Sorry, Iím not hip to the proper moto terminology as I donít ride moto, but I was really thinking more of what my brother-in-lawís brother used to race; endurocross. Thereís no way to pootle
    Well you did say super motocross, which is just riding laps round a track with roll-able jumps. Pretty sure my 65 year old mother could still manage that.

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    Could this be the future of eMTBs?

    Quote Originally Posted by singletrackmack View Post
    Yes, both very demanding. However, one also requires a great deal of other physical attributes besides endurance, like skill and coordination as well as upper/lower body and core strength and extremely fast reactions with great hand eye coordination. The other just requires endurance, like running or swimming, so no where near the level of physical fitness, skills and coordination needed as other sports.

    And yes, the moto guy would get smoked by the road bikers, but he could finish solo, while a road biker most likely wouldnít be able to get very far if anywhere at all in a moto-cross race let alone coming close to finishing something like a super motocross race. A road biker would have to go through a crazy amount of training, practicing, crashing, weightlifting etc just to be able to do a lap. Pretty much anyone can enter a marathon or ride a bike for a long distance. May not be fast, but easily done.
    But if you don't meet the time cut, you aren't finishing the race. You literally don't get a result. It's the same thing as withdrawing; they mark a DNF next to your name. If you crash out, you aren't finishing the race. If you get hit by a team car because you don't know how to race, you aren't finishing the race.

    The demands of racing on the road at that level are so far above and beyond the comprehension of the average fat ass mountain biker that, well, it's really not worth discussing here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mudguard View Post
    Well you did say super motocross, which is just riding laps round a track with roll-able jumps. Pretty sure my 65 year old mother could still manage that.
    I'd pay to see that

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    Quote Originally Posted by speedygz View Post
    A lot of MotoGP & world Superbike riders cycle.


    Yep, and a lot of Roadies race moto. Vegan cyclist for one, that skinny little fkr is pretty fast on a moto.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mudguard View Post
    Well you did say super motocross, which is just riding laps round a track with roll-able jumps. Pretty sure my 65 year old mother could still manage that.
    Ya, again sorry, donít follow or ride moto at all. Had no idea something like that existed until I met my brother-in-laws brother. Always sorta thought motos were for lazier types of people as a way to get out into nature. Then I saw some videos of their multi-day several hundred mile off-road/off-grid adventures and quickly realized how wrong I was. As for ebikes, I first figured it was a way for those lazier types to now be able to ride motos on non-motorized trails (and I am sure there is some of that), but an ebike like the op posted doesnít seem like a lazy mans ebike.


    However, now that I think about it, I donít ever remember a time when I went on a bike ride for exercise anyways, so I guess it really doesnít matter.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mudguard View Post
    Well you did say super motocross, which is just riding laps round a track with roll-able jumps. Pretty sure my 65 year old mother could still manage that.
    You sir, are an idiot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    You sir, are an idiot.
    Well that's a compelling argument. I suppose you don't think older people ride bikes either?

    If someone can ride a motocross bike, then you don't think they'd be able to ride around this?
    Could this be the future of eMTBs?-supercross-track.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mudguard View Post
    Well that's a compelling argument. I suppose you don't think older people ride bikes either?

    If someone can ride a motocross bike, then you don't think they'd be able to ride around this?
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Bike trail riding is immensely physically easier than riding around an MX track and also has a much easier learning curve. You sound like one of those people that say 'well the motor does all the work'.
    I've done both extensively. I don't think an older lady could even idle a dirt bike around an amateur MX track (positively not a supercross track) but let's talk about actually riding: many of the people at the local trail head could not actually try and ride a dirt bike on a real track without leaving scared/ injured if they actually tried to 'ride'. 100% of those people if they tried would be physically exhausted after just a few minutes and sore for days (I always was and rode MX a ton for years). The same people that are capable of trail riding for hours.
    That sport, just isn't at all what you think it is. It's very physically demanding and quite easy to get really hurt.
    I love both, but let's be clear that I love Enduro style mountain biking riding precisely because it's so easy and safe comparitively.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Kuhl View Post
    With all of these new e-bikes and everyone riding them, soon mountain bikers will be as fat as everyone else.
    And trails will be smooth as glass as motorcycle riding noobs passionately remove all trail obstacles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TylerVernon View Post
    And trails will be smooth as glass as motorcycle riding noobs passionately remove all trail obstacles.
    I don't think trail sanitization is strictly something that will come with e-noobs, it just comes with entitled noobs in general. Trail threading, short cutting and sanitization all are the spectre of people that can't clean a section or don't have the skills to link together corners so they thread them or just kids racing each other and not following the lines. Potentially e-noobs will enhance this but regular noobs have been doing it for a long time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockcrusher View Post
    I mean I don't get what is so amazing about this that other ebikes don't have? is it just the moto aspect of it? I think once you added pedal assist to make it an ebike and pedals it would be much less fun. Thus the separation between e motorcycle and ebike.
    Power is what makes it amazing, plus its size makes it fun on mtb trails. It's a really blurry area, riders are sticking pedals on these, claiming they're Class 2 ebikes and there's no one to dispute it.

    A comparison of the Segway vs the Suron.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWEw0ibdhWs

    Once bikes like this get wide distribution through moto shops, we'll see lots of them. They're quiet, they're fun, relatively inexpensive and you can sneak around and ride them everywhere. Who is out there to stop them? IMO all bikes with electric motors will be lumped together by other users and land managers, only enthusiasts will be able to tell them apart. Which will ruin things for riders who only want 250w pedal assist ebikes.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Could this be the future of eMTBs?-pedals-10.jpg  

    Could this be the future of eMTBs?-sur-ron-washington.jpg  

    Could this be the future of eMTBs?-poaching-auburn.jpg  

    Could this be the future of eMTBs?-sur-ron-beacon-hill-mtb-trails.jpg  


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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    Power is what makes it amazing, plus its size makes it fun on mtb trails. It's a really blurry area, riders are sticking pedals on these, claiming they're Class 2 ebikes and there's no one to dispute it.

    A comparison of the Segway vs the Suron.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWEw0ibdhWs

    Once bikes like this get wide distribution through moto shops, we'll see lots of them. They're quiet, they're fun, relatively inexpensive and you can sneak around and ride them everywhere. Who is out there to stop them? IMO all bikes with electric motors will be lumped together by other users and land managers, only enthusiasts will be able to tell them apart. Which will ruin things for riders who only want 250w pedal assist ebikes.
    See this is what I was talking about. Taking these on MTB trails as-is is overkill and dangerous. I think if they do put this formula into a full eMTB without pedal, it would work. Like I said before, MTB geo, 10 mph speed limit with throttle, 50 lbs, 60 miles range, MTB components, etc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Engineer90 View Post
    ...10 mph speed limit with throttle, 50 lbs...
    honestly, that sounds lame as fuck...


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    Quote Originally Posted by .WestCoastHucker. View Post
    honestly, that sounds lame as fuck...
    So MTBing is lame? The highest speeds in MTB are no more than 10 mph on single track.

    Now downhill thatís another story...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Engineer90 View Post
    The highest speeds in MTB are no more than 10 mph on single track.
    Oh man

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    Quote Originally Posted by Engineer90 View Post
    See this is what I was talking about. Taking these on MTB trails as-is is overkill and dangerous. I think if they do put this formula into a full eMTB without pedal, it would work. Like I said before, MTB geo, 10 mph speed limit with throttle, 50 lbs, 60 miles range, MTB components, etc.
    Yeah, 10mph is never going to fly.... not that speed limits are obeyed or enforced.

    Ebikes like that already exist, the LMX 64 for one.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bxx2NR8zcDc

    Lots of Bafang builds out there using the BBSHD.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6tX_jNxNqM

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    Yeah, 10mph is never going to fly.... not that speed limits are obeyed or enforced.

    Ebikes like that already exist, the LMX 64 for one.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bxx2NR8zcDc

    Lots of Bafang builds out there using the BBSHD.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6tX_jNxNqM
    These are eMTBs. Of course these have been around for a while. I'm focusing on a eMTB without pedals. No pedal assist, nothing. Pure electric MTB without any pedals.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Engineer90 View Post
    So MTBing is lame? The highest speeds in MTB are no more than 10 mph on single track.

    Now downhill thatís another story...



    No more than 10 mph? That does sound kind of lame.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Engineer90 View Post
    These are eMTBs. Of course these have been around for a while. I'm focusing on a eMTB without pedals. No pedal assist, nothing. Pure electric MTB without any pedals.
    I don't know of any mtbs without pedals.....

    https://www.ubcobikes.com/us/frx1-trail-bike/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    I don't know of any mtbs without pedals.....

    https://www.ubcobikes.com/us/frx1-trail-bike/
    Yeah this isn't an MTB without pedals! This is very similar to the Segway.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Train Wreck View Post
    Oh man
    Am I wrong? What are the average fastest speeds on flat single track pedaling?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Engineer90 View Post
    Am I wrong? What are the average fastest speeds on flat single track pedaling?
    ...and its flat? In that case I'd most likely be on a curly bar bike averaging 13-17mph.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Engineer90 View Post
    Yeah this isn't an MTB without pedals! This is very similar to the Segway.
    Guess what? When you are no longer pedaling, a lot of bicycle specific things like small bike seats, kickback reducing suspension kinematics, and "seat tube" angles are no longer relevant and proven motorcycle parts and designs are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Engineer90 View Post
    So MTBing is lame? The highest speeds in MTB are no more than 10 mph on single track.

    Now downhill thatís another story...
    We used to consider 10mph average a good ride. This was on mostly technical terrain, so you're way off for a flat trail, especially if it's just hardpack or something similar.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    Guess what? When you are no longer pedaling, a lot of bicycle specific things like small bike seats, kickback reducing suspension kinematics, and "seat tube" angles are no longer relevant and proven motorcycle parts and designs are.
    Well yes architecture would be different. Point being if itís closer to MTB geo that would be fun in MTB trails.
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    The speed limit where I do most all of my riding is 15mph. Riding at that speed I get past by e-bikers like I'm standing still.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Engineer90 View Post
    Am I wrong? What are the average fastest speeds on flat single track pedaling?

    I think about 16-19 mph, if the overall net incline is 0%. On dirt, of course. Pavement then maybe 25 mph.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Engineer90 View Post
    These are eMTBs. Of course these have been around for a while. I'm focusing on a eMTB without pedals. No pedal assist, nothing. Pure electric MTB without any pedals.

    If it doesn't pedal, it's not a bicycle. That's an e-motorcycle or e-dirt bike. The kind that has all of the e-bike haters scared to death and frantically trying to separate e-bikes from mountain bikes. I really hope that's not the future of e-bikes, but I do hope that's the future of dirt bikes, so they quit their noise and pollution.

    Realistically, I don't think most rural areas care if there was an electric dirt bike out there, but they are sick of hearing gas-powered dirt bikes all times of the day and evening out there, and the no dirt bike signs at the trailhead are proof. A lot of no motorized bike/ATV signs but hardly any no e-bike signs where I'm at, because e-bikes make no noise compared to a dirt bike. It's really the noise of a dirt bike, and the trail erosion that is the bad thing. Maybe an e-dirt bike would be fine on trails but that still doesn't make it a bicycle.

    I just don't get why someone cannot understand that an e-bike with pedal assist is a bicycle that you pedal with a bit less force and get a bit more power out of it, that's the only difference from a regular bicycle. That is very, very different than just pulling on a dirt bike throttle and holding on. Or an e-dirt bike with throttle only. A normal 250-1000W e-bike that is throttle only is simply not going to be able to handle the same terrain at the same speed as a dirt bike. A 200-lb, 25 horsepower dirt bike will blow a throttle-only e-bike away, precisely because a throttle-only e-bike is still a bicycle with bicycle tires, suspension, and frame...and pedals, even if you don't use them. You don't get up steep techy inclines with a throttle-only bicycle. One tire will slip and you stop.

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    For tight trails with limited sight lines, this wont fly. I just examined my gps track on ride i finished on my cross bike, long road segment and then a singletrack trail segment. Trail segment track shows in 3min average bars ranged from below 1mph to shy of 7. This trail is shared with runners and hikers in both directions so requires attention and stopping to allow passing. I only hit 18 briefly on the final dh on wide double track.
    Once on road i was at around 12 with tye knobbies. Only briefly approached 20 and went over only a few times.
    25 average on road with slicks is still a good pace.
    Anyway, part of throttle ebike proposed is differentiating and enforcement. Too difficult to tell to allow on non OHV trails. I can only think of one exception, Martyn Ashton. I dont think many will argue if they see him on trail.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Engineer90 View Post
    So I know some dirt ebikes exist, such as the KTM one and now thereís this one: a Segway. I watched a video and it looks fun actually! This thing looks like a cross between a MTB and a dirt bike.

    Anyways, to me eMTBs are just odd with the pedal assist and I would never get one.

    Now, what if Segway took their Dirt eBike and used this formula in a MTB? Letís say 50-60 lbs, MTB geo, 20 mph max speed, etc. Make it into a full electric MTB. I know some regulations wouldnít allow it, however, if the specs stayed somewhat close to MTB specs I am sure it would be allowed in trails.

    Would something like this be the next step in eMTBs?




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    Quote Originally Posted by BansheeRune View Post
    On par with a 250cc two stroke and I'm in!
    It's just a matter of time.


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