Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 100 of 261
  1. #1
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    41

    Convincing your Significant Other

    Hi Everyone,

    Last night I breached the conversation with my wife that I wanted to seriously consider purchasing my dream bike in spring of 2019. I have had my 2018 Trek Roscoe 8 for the second half of 2018 and have put a bunch of miles on it and quickly got to the limits of it. My style of riding is pretty aggressive even though I have really only been mountain biking for the 2018 season. I have been riding bikes for my entire childhood though. I have put considerable miles on Huffy bikes around my neighborhood growing up (building jumps with mulch my dad ordered for the yard) and I have really fallen in love with mountain biking.

    I have a fairly decent job, but my wife and I just got married this year and we intend on having kids in a couple years so this would be my last toy purchase for a long time. I have finished paying off my student loans from college and now am working to save for a house (prospective first time home buyer in this market is not a fun time).

    Unfortunately, my wife thinks any form of cycling beyond an easy 3 miler through your neighborhood roads is insane and dangerous. When on vacation this past year, I rented her a mountain bike and tried to take her on a bit of single track and she ended up in tears after making it about 20 feet into the trail.

    $5200 for a 2019 SC Bronson is definitely a lot more than the $1250 I paid for the Roscoe. My intention was to wait for my LBS to get trek financing in march to take advantage of the 0% for 12 months.

    Is anyone in a similar position as me? How did you convince your significant other to get your dream bike?
    Last edited by natejc; 12-11-2018 at 07:44 AM. Reason: trying to add signiture but can

  2. #2
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Gasp4Air's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    3,261
    Begging, grovelling and whining. Seriously, lucky is the man whose non-riding spouse understands the passion for riding. Be honest, though. How would you feel about your wife spending 5K on something YOU thought was frivolous?

    I haven't had your exact problem, but based on years of married life, I'd say you need to discuss this. Have you come up with a financial plan that accounts for your family's future needs that can include the bike? Are there things you (not she) could give up that would help save money? Is there a passionate pastime your wife has that you can liken riding to? Is there a less expensive option for you to step up your riding game?

    All of these are just suggestions. The important thing is to take your wife's concerns and your family's financial needs seriously. Who knows, maybe she's right? If you still think it's a responsible thing to do, you need to get her on board before you spend that much money. That is, unless you ultimately care more about the bike than you do your marriage.

    Good luck!
    Use it, use it, use it while you still have it.

  3. #3
    mtbr member
    Reputation: toadmeister's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Posts
    90
    A lot of us married guys have been down this road one way or another.

    One solution that worked for me, I got my wife into biking . I see that didn't work great for you but you need to try again a little slower.

    When the problem is not a financial one, it's usually a control issue. They don't want to cut your leash to let you out for fun without them. Make sure you are addressing that.

  4. #4
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    41
    All good points! Thanks for the reply.

    And yes I agree it is a ton of money. Maybe I can only get like an AL jeffsy or something

    My thought too is to work with her on what a reasonable amount of money to spend on a bike would be. She does CrossFit at like $2k a year.
    Last edited by natejc; 12-11-2018 at 07:43 AM.
    -Nate

    Current Bike: 2018 Trek Roscoe 8
    Dream Bike: 2019 Santa Cruz Bronson C S+

  5. #5
    Cycologist
    Reputation: chazpat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    4,900
    Trying to convince her that you need a new bike when you just bought a new bike less than a year ago is understandably a hard sell. Are you sure you have gotten to the limits of it? Or have you just been seduced by the Bronson and the idea of full suspension? How is the Rosco limiting you?

    As Gasp4Air said, you'll need to come up with a plan. I take my lunch to work everyday rather than eating out so that I can save money for bike stuff. That would help, but probably not save you $5200 in a year. It sounds like you are good with money since you paid off your student loan so get creative. Why not get the aluminum version for less money, that would make it more reachable. Sometimes our dreams are not really 100% practical in real life.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oh My Sack! View Post
    Remember, there's always quilting and knitting if pedalling becomes too tough.

  6. #6
    mtbr member
    Reputation: azimiut's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    520
    When I bought my bike If I remember right it was around $3k. I told her I was going to look at an "expensive" bike. To some that is outrageous and to others its not bad. She thought it was expensive but knew I would ride the hell out of it. Down the road she saw me going out with friends, going riding, and hanging before and after rides. So now she has a bike and does different events and races with me. Also what really helped my wife with trail riding was finding a mountain bike group/class that is all women.
    Dont make me go all Jonathan Winters on this gas station.

  7. #7
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    41
    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    Or have you just been seduced by the Bronson and the idea of full suspension? How is the Rosco limiting you?
    The answer to your first question is yes. To your second, I guess that is a valid question. I do send it pretty hard off of different features on the trail, but for 80%+ of the time, I am climbing and trying to make it up rock gardens.

    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    Why not get the aluminum version for less money, that would make it more reachable. Sometimes our dreams are not really 100% practical in real life.
    I could do that. I was also looking at the trek remedy 8 as well to save some money there.

    thank you for your replies everyone!
    -Nate

    Current Bike: 2018 Trek Roscoe 8
    Dream Bike: 2019 Santa Cruz Bronson C S+

  8. #8
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    41
    Quote Originally Posted by azimiut View Post
    Down the road she saw me going out with friends, going riding, and hanging before and after rides. So now she has a bike and does different events and races with me. Also what really helped my wife with trail riding was finding a mountain bike group/class that is all women.
    Oh you might be on to something....she does CrossFit (class based) and adores it. Maybe she needs to be exposed to something class-based as well? Not sure. It might work with someone who would be open to trying it a little more than my wife.
    -Nate

    Current Bike: 2018 Trek Roscoe 8
    Dream Bike: 2019 Santa Cruz Bronson C S+

  9. #9
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Lone Rager's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    4,894
    My wife let me get a new MTB after I got her one.

    Practically speaking, I'm with Chazpat. IMO, carbon makes no discernible diff on a bike like the Bronson and you'd be much better off putting bux into components, where it will make a diff. My money goes into tires, suspension, wheels, drivetrain, and brakes...not necessarily in that order. Also riding/crashing aluminum usually involves a lot less angst. I'm all for getting high end al build rather than low end carbon build.

    Some might advocate getting a low end build and upgrading over time. That might work with your wife, but it is more expensive to do it that way, and in the interim, you're postponing and not benefiting from those future upgrades.
    Do the math.

  10. #10
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    41
    Quote Originally Posted by Lone Rager View Post
    Also riding/crashing aluminum usually involves a lot less angst. I'm all for getting high end al build rather than low end carbon build.

    Some might advocate getting a low end build and upgrading over time. That might work with your wife, but it is more expensive to do it that way, and in the interim, you're postponing and not benefiting from those future upgrades.
    I have been looking up threads on this for the last month and I appreciate your input. Especially when I want to take the bike on some trips, this might be the way to go (mitigating damage in airport baggage).
    -Nate

    Current Bike: 2018 Trek Roscoe 8
    Dream Bike: 2019 Santa Cruz Bronson C S+

  11. #11
    Out spokin'
    Reputation: Sparticus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Posts
    9,262
    Life is short. Buy the damn bicycle.

    And do it right -- get the one you want. Think about when you picked her. You didn't compromise, right? And she wouldn't have wanted you to pick a cheap one.

    Read my sig. You've got the money, live life.
    =sParty
    disciplesofdirt.org

    We don't quit riding because we get old.
    We get old because we quit riding.

  12. #12
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    41
    Quote Originally Posted by toadmeister View Post
    When the problem is not a financial one, it's usually a control issue. They don't want to cut your leash to let you out for fun without them. Make sure you are addressing that.
    I think this point hit home with me the most. She does works out at a gym, but doesn't have most hobbies beyond that. I have a lot of hobbies in addition to working.

    We do however dedicate one night a week to just being with each other. And it happens once a week without fail (unless I'm on travel for work). Its something that we prioritize in our relationship that we both look forward to each week
    -Nate

    Current Bike: 2018 Trek Roscoe 8
    Dream Bike: 2019 Santa Cruz Bronson C S+

  13. #13
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    41
    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus View Post
    Think about when you picked her. You didn't compromise, right? And she wouldn't have wanted you to pick a cheap one.
    =sParty
    This is very true! Great work with the DOD in your sig by the way. I need to get out that way to Bellingham where a buddy of mine lives.
    -Nate

    Current Bike: 2018 Trek Roscoe 8
    Dream Bike: 2019 Santa Cruz Bronson C S+

  14. #14
    Cycologist
    Reputation: chazpat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    4,900
    Quote Originally Posted by Lone Rager View Post
    My wife let me get a new MTB after I got her one.
    My wife let me get a new MTB after I got her a new car.

    I still had to pitch in some of my lunch money.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oh My Sack! View Post
    Remember, there's always quilting and knitting if pedalling becomes too tough.

  15. #15
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Uwibami's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Posts
    209
    Man, Glad my wife is into Bikes, Never thought about this but, I could see where this could be a big problem. Good Luck man.
    " What do you want for yourself?"

    2018 Roll Comp X1
    2018 Santa Cruz HT 27.5+
    2019 Kona Process 153 CR/DL 29

  16. #16
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    41
    What does it mean to "reach the limit of your bike"? Could I just be wrong in and not be at the limits of my bike and can still shred the Roscoe for another year?
    -Nate

    Current Bike: 2018 Trek Roscoe 8
    Dream Bike: 2019 Santa Cruz Bronson C S+

  17. #17
    mtbr member
    Reputation: solarplex's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    1,409
    Asking for forgiveness is easier than asking for permission.

    Guy i know only buys black bikes. Wife doesnt know about any upgrades.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Fatbike, XC bike, Gravel Bike....

  18. #18
    Flat Pluto Society
    Reputation: Finch Platte's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    15,808

  19. #19
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    41
    Quote Originally Posted by solarplex View Post
    Asking for forgiveness is easier than asking for permission.

    Guy i know only buys black bikes. Wife doesnt know about any upgrades.
    LOL. I don't know if I could swing doing that. I understand where my wife is coming from, I just wanted to get a feeler for if this is something I should consider for this coming year or just suck it up and not get caught up in (as we say in the camera world) GAS (gear acquisition syndrome).
    -Nate

    Current Bike: 2018 Trek Roscoe 8
    Dream Bike: 2019 Santa Cruz Bronson C S+

  20. #20
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Lone Rager's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    4,894
    Quote Originally Posted by natejc View Post
    (al vs carbon) Especially when I want to take the bike on some trips, this might be the way to go (mitigating damage in airport baggage).
    I don't want to assert that one or the other is less prone to damage, just that for most riders there's usually a lot less worry and uncertainty with aluminum.

    When my wife and/or I have flown with bikes, it almost always was with our high-end carbon road bikes in padded soft cases. We haven't had any issues yet, but part of that is probably just dumb luck. I'd be even less concerned with properly packed CF mtbs as they're a lot stouter than road bikes.

    This might be a bit OT as the discussion is convincing your wife you should be allowed to get a new bike, but reevaluating what you need and will be satisfied with may help.
    Do the math.

  21. #21
    Cycologist
    Reputation: chazpat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    4,900
    Quote Originally Posted by natejc View Post
    What does it mean to "reach the limit of your bike"? Could I just be wrong in and not be at the limits of my bike and can still shred the Roscoe for another year?
    Probably. But there are a couple of things. With a decent bike, it's usually more about the rider's skill level than the equipment. A skilled rider can do more with a lesser bike than a less skilled rider on a higher end bike. But sometimes, it is about having the right tool for the job; depends on the trails you ride and what you are wanting to do. I recently bought a rigid single speed; most people would probably say it is the wrong tool for the trails I ride but, it is what I want to do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oh My Sack! View Post
    Remember, there's always quilting and knitting if pedalling becomes too tough.

  22. #22
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Posts
    155
    I took my wife to a local enduro race back when I had only a hardtail. She said, "Why does everyone else's bike look so much cooler than yours?"

    I was on a FS within a few months, as I took that as permission to purchase one. Admittedly, I bought used, and it was cheap. I'm about to buy either a Stumpy or Smuggler, though... and she doesn't seem to mind.

    Part of it, though, is that our son is also really into riding, so she sees a lot of value in the sport in that he and I do it together. Our area is also HUGE into mountain biking, and it's become a networking piece (like golf back in the day) in that riding is common ground for lots of people to talk about. The fact that she has a husband and son who ride a lot and are active in the community is good for her businesses.

  23. #23
    mtbr member
    Reputation: DeadGrandpa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Posts
    238
    Personally, I would advise rethinking that whole "having kids" thing. I know many people enjoy them, but they are a very expensive hobby.

  24. #24
    CEO Product Failure
    Reputation: bingemtbr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    974
    I do not believe this a financial issue, this is a relationship issue--as in the two of you being able to relate to one another. Your SO should support and trust in you as much as you support and trust in them. Given how young you appear, some of these issues should resolve themselves as you grow-up together.

    My advice, if your SO says "no". Then respect their wishes. If your SO ask for something, (i.e. new bike, car, swimming pool, whatever), do your best to always say yes. Relationships are not quid-pro-quo. There is no convincing someone. Try to share your passion. If your SO doesn't ride, take them hiking. If they don't hike, plan a picnic. Give them the opportunity to relate to your passion.

  25. #25
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    326
    As a Bronson owner, make sure that you get to ride it before you have those kids. I bought mine, had a kid, and then barely rode it for a year. Now with a two year old, I'm slowly getting to ride a bit more, but it was really patchy for a while.

    On the bright side, when very young, my son would only sleep in one of those front pouches. Every morning, I'd take a walk with one so my wife could sleep and the dog could run. Eventually I brought a garden rake out to the forest and by the end of the year, I had built 1.5 miles of singletrack maybe 50 feet at a time. Now that my son doesn't come on my morning walks anymore, i ride that trail with the dog and keep my fitness up.

  26. #26
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    41
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadGrandpa View Post
    Personally, I would advise rethinking that whole "having kids" thing. I know many people enjoy them, but they are a very expensive hobby.
    Same here. Unfortunately, or fortunately depending on how you look at it, we are definitely looking to have kids in the future. And it will probably impact mountain biking purchases and riding availability in the future...and I am okay with that.
    -Nate

    Current Bike: 2018 Trek Roscoe 8
    Dream Bike: 2019 Santa Cruz Bronson C S+

  27. #27
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    41
    Quote Originally Posted by bingemtbr View Post
    I do not believe this a financial issue, this is a relationship issue--as in the two of you being able to relate to one another. Your SO should support and trust in you as much as you support and trust in them. Given how young you appear, some of these issues should resolve themselves as you grow-up together.

    My advice, if your SO says "no". Then respect their wishes. If your SO ask for something, (i.e. new bike, car, swimming pool, whatever), do your best to always say yes. Relationships are not quid-pro-quo. There is no convincing someone. Try to share your passion. If your SO doesn't ride, take them hiking. If they don't hike, plan a picnic. Give them the opportunity to relate to your passion.
    Awesome advice. Maybe sticking with the hardtail and going out riding with my friends when I can is the direction I should go and really put more of an investment in shared interests (trips, hiking, etc)
    -Nate

    Current Bike: 2018 Trek Roscoe 8
    Dream Bike: 2019 Santa Cruz Bronson C S+

  28. #28
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    12,374
    Quote Originally Posted by natejc View Post
    What does it mean to "reach the limit of your bike"? Could I just be wrong in and not be at the limits of my bike and can still shred the Roscoe for another year?
    Your bike has a 120mm travel RS Judy 30mm stanchion air fork. This is at the very low end of performance for an air fork.

    If you upgraded your fork you could seriously increase the scope of what you can ride. With skill development you could ride all terrains. Lots of guys here do that. Especially with the Plus wheels and tires your bike can handle. You may want to build new wheels with Chinese carbon at some time for $700 or so. But a wheelset won't make as much improvement as a fork for your bike.

    Here's an a review- https://nsmb.com/articles/manitou-mattoc-pro-fork/
    The 120mm can be adjusted with spacers for more travel.
    2019 includes a stiffer and stronger crown on the Mattoc Pro Boost. And 37 offset will be an option. Your bike currently uses 51.
    Dougal is a good resource for info on service and tuning in the Shock and Suspension forum.
    https://forums.mtbr.com/shocks-suspe...oc-899836.html

  29. #29
    CEO Product Failure
    Reputation: bingemtbr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    974
    Also, this notion that "life" stops when you have kids is complete and utter BS. Your kids don't need a tablet, TV and 22hrs indoors. They need to get dirty playing in dirt, exhaust themselves running outside, and be introduced to new people, places and experiences.

    I roll my eyes every time I hear this tripe. FWIW, I was 21 when we had our first born. I never "took time off" from riding. I'd find time in the off hours or take the kid with me (paved trail, on a Burley bugger). Today 25yrs later, my oldest son regularly rides and races mtbs with me.

  30. #30
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    41
    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusBrody View Post
    As a Bronson owner, make sure that you get to ride it before you have those kids. I bought mine, had a kid, and then barely rode it for a year. Now with a two year old, I'm slowly getting to ride a bit more, but it was really patchy for a while.

    On the bright side, when very young, my son would only sleep in one of those front pouches. Every morning, I'd take a walk with one so my wife could sleep and the dog could run. Eventually I brought a garden rake out to the forest and by the end of the year, I had built 1.5 miles of singletrack maybe 50 feet at a time. Now that my son doesn't come on my morning walks anymore, i ride that trail with the dog and keep my fitness up.
    Good point on the bike purchase timing. I would love to buy a house with some land to build a trail. The engineer in me gets excited about that.
    -Nate

    Current Bike: 2018 Trek Roscoe 8
    Dream Bike: 2019 Santa Cruz Bronson C S+

  31. #31
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    41
    Quote Originally Posted by bingemtbr View Post
    Also, this notion that "life" stops when you have kids is complete and utter BS. Your kids don't need a tablet, TV and 22hrs indoors. They need to get dirty playing in dirt, exhaust themselves running outside, and be introduced to new people, places and experiences.

    I roll my eyes every time I hear this tripe. FWIW, I was 21 when we had our first born. I never "took time off" from riding. I'd find time in the off hours or take the kid with me (paved trail, on a Burley bugger). Today 25yrs later, my oldest son regularly rides and races mtbs with me.
    Your entire response is my life goal. That's how I grew up too. Playing outside for 10+ hours a day during the summer and on weekends and playing sports.
    -Nate

    Current Bike: 2018 Trek Roscoe 8
    Dream Bike: 2019 Santa Cruz Bronson C S+

  32. #32
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Bacon Fat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    315
    You are still new to mtn biking. Ride your bike more and don't get caught up in the latest and greatest new bikes. There is always a newer and better bike, soon as you buy the SC, there will be a better bike you want.

    Plus if you are planning on getting a house and having a child, you need to put your toys on the back burner, both are extremely expensive and time consuming. Time to step up and be a Father and a husband and think about providing for your/their future. If you do this, save your money, make your family secure financially, then it becomes a non issue when you want to spend big on yourself. You and your wife will feel you deserve it.

  33. #33
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    41
    Quote Originally Posted by eb1888 View Post
    Your bike has a 120mm travel RS Judy 30mm stanchion air fork. This is at the very low end of performance for an air fork.

    If you upgraded your fork you could seriously increase the scope of what you can ride. With skill development you could ride all terrains. Lots of guys here do that. Especially with the Plus wheels and tires your bike can handle. You may want to build new wheels with Chinese carbon at some time for $700 or so. But a wheelset won't make as much improvement as a fork for your bike.

    Here's an a review- https://nsmb.com/articles/manitou-mattoc-pro-fork/
    The 120mm can be adjusted with spacers for more travel.
    2019 includes a stiffer and stronger crown on the Mattoc Pro Boost. And 37 offset will be an option. Your bike currently uses 51.
    Dougal is a good resource for info on service and tuning in the Shock and Suspension forum.
    https://forums.mtbr.com/shocks-suspe...oc-899836.html
    I want to learn more. I do love the Roscoe and could definitely ride it for another year or two while I save up for something bigger (or even when the 2019 bikes go on sale at the end of next year).
    -Nate

    Current Bike: 2018 Trek Roscoe 8
    Dream Bike: 2019 Santa Cruz Bronson C S+

  34. #34
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    41
    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon Fat View Post
    You are still new to mtn biking. Ride your bike more and don't get caught up in the latest and greatest new bikes. There is always a newer and better bike, soon as you buy the SC, there will be a better bike you want.

    Plus if you are planning on getting a house and having a child, you need to put your toys on the back burner, both are extremely expensive and time consuming. Time to step up and be a Father and a husband and think about providing for your/their future. If you do this, save your money, make your family secure financially, then it becomes a non issue when you want to spend big on yourself. You and your wife will feel you deserve it.
    Sounds like the best way to go!
    -Nate

    Current Bike: 2018 Trek Roscoe 8
    Dream Bike: 2019 Santa Cruz Bronson C S+

  35. #35
    Nat
    Nat is online now
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Nat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    13,098
    Standard formula: Actual price x 0.5 = claimed purchase price. "Honey, it was on sale!"

  36. #36
    mtbr member
    Reputation: jeremy3220's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Posts
    1,085
    Quote Originally Posted by natejc View Post
    What does it mean to "reach the limit of your bike"?
    There's no agreed upon definition. The only clear one is when your bike or components literally won't survive a trail/feature. Even then some riders are smoother than others and destroy less parts. Another definition could be when your bike is holding you back speed wise but of course that depends on the rider. You can do a lot on a hardtail and generally what holds people back from clearing a trail is skill. Unless you're riding lift access DH parks or equivalent terrain, a hardtail will probably handle it. Although not ideal you can even ride a hardtail on a lot of DH park trails. Watch some videos of people riding hardtails at Whistler.

    Why do you think you've reached the limit of your bike?

  37. #37
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    41
    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy3220 View Post
    There's no agreed upon definition. The only clear one is when your bike or components literally won't survive a trail/feature. Even then some riders are smoother than others and destroy less parts. Another definition could be when your bike is holding you back speed wise but of course that depends on the rider. You can do a lot on a hardtail and generally what holds people back from clearing a trail is skill. Unless you're riding lift access DH parks or equivalent terrain, a hardtail will probably handle it. Although not ideal you can even ride a hardtail on a lot of DH park trails. Watch some videos of people riding hardtails at Whistler.

    Why do you think you've reached the limit of your bike?
    I think it has a lot to do with the fork. I'm always bottoming out. I think that with the proper adjustment or a fork upgrade, I can probably send it off of bigger features and have a little more comfort on the way down.

    For example: I really liked riding a couple of flow trails on Cady Hill a couple months ago. I feel like I could have ridden a little longer if I had a full-sus to absorb some impact. But I do know that most of it comes down to skill on my bike and will probably stick with the roscoe for 2019 + maybe a fork upgrade.

    (Playing devil's advocate): if you take DH parks out of the question, why would anyone spend more money on a full-sus when a hardtail can do all of the same stuff? Same thing in the watch industry: why spend 8k on a rolex sub when you can spend 20 dollars on a casio to tell you the time?
    -Nate

    Current Bike: 2018 Trek Roscoe 8
    Dream Bike: 2019 Santa Cruz Bronson C S+

  38. #38
    Life's a Garden, dig it!
    Reputation: chuckha62's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    3,135
    Quote Originally Posted by bingemtbr View Post
    Also, this notion that "life" stops when you have kids is complete and utter BS. Your kids don't need a tablet, TV and 22hrs indoors. They need to get dirty playing in dirt, exhaust themselves running outside, and be introduced to new people, places and experiences.

    I roll my eyes every time I hear this tripe. FWIW, I was 21 when we had our first born. I never "took time off" from riding. I'd find time in the off hours or take the kid with me (paved trail, on a Burley bugger). Today 25yrs later, my oldest son regularly rides and races mtbs with me.
    THIS! My kids are now 28 and 30. They grew up with bikes, snow skis, water skis, snow boards, wakeboards, whatever... Whatever we were into doing, we did it as a family. My boys still ride and their spouses ride too. I just rode Saturday with my oldest and on Sunday with my youngest.

    Set the tone early and enjoy your life with your kids.
    Why Johnny Ringo, you look like someone just walked over your grave.

  39. #39
    Nat
    Nat is online now
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Nat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    13,098
    Quote Originally Posted by natejc View Post

    (Playing devil's advocate): if you take DH parks out of the question, why would anyone spend more money on a full-sus when a hardtail can do all of the same stuff?
    You're dead to me now.

  40. #40
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    41
    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    You're dead to me now.


    Honestly I would love to turn the roscoe 8 into an absolute machine and take it to insane places. Moab: on a hartail. CB: on a hardtail. Dolomites: on a hardtail. I think it would be pretty fun.

    I could put some money towards a cool trip with friends and/or my wife and do that. That's what its all about, right?
    -Nate

    Current Bike: 2018 Trek Roscoe 8
    Dream Bike: 2019 Santa Cruz Bronson C S+

  41. #41
    mtbr member
    Reputation: MSU Alum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    3,345
    30 years ago, our family moved to Park City Utah and built our dream home. Of course, right after that, the airlines (where I was a pilot) hit hard times and we took quite a pay cut. We were on a short leash and really had to pinch pennies (I worked at the airline and flew in the Navy reserves to make ends meet). It was stressful, to say the least and we considered selling the house several times. The final straw was when I was considering spending $100 on a carbon kayak paddle. She handed me the budget and said, "If you can find $100 in there, buy the paddle". A week later, the house was on the market! ....priorities....

    Fast forward 20 years and we were then in a great place in all ways including finances. At one point, my wife walked in while I was reading the news, or something and she said, hey, you're due for a new bike! $7000 later, voilą....new bike. Since then, she's gotten one, I've gotten another....and then another and now I'm trying to convince her to get a new 29er (we are both in our mid-60's).

    The point is, we can now afford to do stuff we couldn't before. That's just the way life is. We're empty nesters after putting three kids up through grad school, the house is paid for and we are debt free. Sometimes you just have to face the reality of where you are in your life. My youngest son is on a bike I got him in high school - ten years ago - because he's saving up for a house.

    Maybe you should say, honey, how about if each time we make a payment on Crossfit, let's set aside an equal amount toward a bike. It may take a few years, but then, when you have the money, get the bike. That's essentially what we have always done. Build up the money, THEN get the toys.

  42. #42
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Lone Rager's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    4,894
    My wife and I discussed having kids or getting a dog. We figured it was better to ruin our carpets and than ruin our lives.
    Do the math.

  43. #43
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    41
    Quote Originally Posted by MSU Alum View Post
    Maybe you should say, honey, how about if each time we make a payment on Crossfit, let's set aside an equal amount toward a bike. It may take a couple of years, but then, when you have the money, get the bike. That's essentially what we have always done. Build up the money, THEN get the toys.
    Sounds like a plan! I think I might go ahead and keep the roscoe for a bit.

    And I feel you on grad school. Pretty expensive, but luckily work pays for 80% of it.
    -Nate

    Current Bike: 2018 Trek Roscoe 8
    Dream Bike: 2019 Santa Cruz Bronson C S+

  44. #44
    mtbr member
    Reputation: jeremy3220's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Posts
    1,085
    Quote Originally Posted by natejc View Post
    (Playing devil's advocate): if you take DH parks out of the question, why would anyone spend more money on a full-sus when a hardtail can do all of the same stuff?
    Sometimes a FS is faster, more comfortable, more durable, etc. For example, locally there's a drop that's about 4-5 ft to a nearly flat landing. I have hit it on a hardtail a few times but it's pretty unpleasant so I just don't ride it unless I'm on my FS anymore. Mostly people buy FS bikes or any bike simply because they want it.

    A fork upgrade sounds like a good idea. That frame with a good fork should be able to handle some rough riding.

  45. #45
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    41
    Quote Originally Posted by Lone Rager View Post
    My wife and I discussed having kids or getting a dog. We figured it was better to ruin our carpets and than ruin our lives.
    Ha! Puppers are pretty great. We don't have any pets right now (really for the first time in our lives) and I have to admit it is amazing to just get up and go do stuff spontaneously.

    Obviously when kids happen, they will be coming along too.
    -Nate

    Current Bike: 2018 Trek Roscoe 8
    Dream Bike: 2019 Santa Cruz Bronson C S+

  46. #46
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    12,374
    Quote Originally Posted by natejc View Post
    I think it has a lot to do with the fork. I'm always bottoming out. I think that with the proper adjustment or a fork upgrade, I can probably send it off of bigger features and have a little more comfort on the way down.

    For example: I really liked riding a couple of flow trails on Cady Hill a couple months ago. I feel like I could have ridden a little longer if I had a full-sus to absorb some impact. But I do know that most of it comes down to skill on my bike and will probably stick with the roscoe for 2019 + maybe a fork upgrade.

    (Playing devil's advocate): if you take DH parks out of the question, why would anyone spend more money on a full-sus when a hardtail can do all of the same stuff? Same thing in the watch industry: why spend 8k on a rolex sub when you can spend 20 dollars on a casio to tell you the time?
    You got that right.
    Chris Akrigg with a Fox 36 on a hardtail.

  47. #47
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    41
    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy3220 View Post
    Sometimes a FS is faster, more comfortable, more durable, etc. For example, locally there's a drop that's about 4-5 ft to a nearly flat landing. I have hit it on a hardtail a few times but it's pretty unpleasant so I just don't ride it unless I'm on my FS anymore. Mostly people buy FS bikes or any bike simply because they want it.

    A fork upgrade sounds like a good idea. That frame with a good fork should be able to handle some rough riding.
    Sounds awesome! I have hit a couple 4-5 foot drops like that on the roscoe as well. Do you think I need to stick with a 120mm on that frame due to the geometry? Or could I go a little longer?
    -Nate

    Current Bike: 2018 Trek Roscoe 8
    Dream Bike: 2019 Santa Cruz Bronson C S+

  48. #48
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Bacon Fat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    315
    Quote Originally Posted by natejc View Post


    I could put some money towards a cool trip with friends and/or my wife and do that. That's what its all about, right?
    I took the wife and an 8 month old to Kingdom trails. We rented a house with a friend, his wife and their baby. We rode all day, then when we came back, the girls got to do what they wanted while we watched the kids.

  49. #49
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    41
    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon Fat View Post
    I took the wife and an 8 month old to Kingdom trails. We rented a house with a friend, his wife and their baby. We rode all day, then when we came back, the girls got to do what they wanted while we watched the kids.
    Seems like a solid process! I'm sure I will employ the same when the time comes.
    -Nate

    Current Bike: 2018 Trek Roscoe 8
    Dream Bike: 2019 Santa Cruz Bronson C S+

  50. #50
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Posts
    123
    That's easy to answer. Look at your skill sets, that will tell you about the limits of the bike.

    Quote Originally Posted by natejc View Post
    What does it mean to "reach the limit of your bike"? Could I just be wrong in and not be at the limits of my bike and can still shred the Roscoe for another year?

  51. #51
    Professional Crastinator
    Reputation: Fleas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    5,270
    I've had dreambike dreams - I'm on my 4th dream bike.

    But the reality is, that my dream bike is really an impractical, unreasonable monstrosity, so I've had to compromise slightly. That small compromise shows my wife that I still prioritize our family, house, and livelyhood [slightly] above mountain biking. I almost always have a backup plan. She's good with that.

    If you want to get your wife out on the trail, try a mountain tandem. My wife likes the tandem - we ride much harder trails on it than she would ride on her own. We ride much farther than she would on her own. But it took several years to develop our "style" and preferences to assure that we both have a good time.

    If you are having kids, keep a bike that hauls a trailer. Then your wife will want to ride behind you and watch the kids.

    If you haul a trailer behind the tandem it's just a big, fun show. Try to keep speeds under 30mph.



    -F
    It's never easier - you just go faster.

  52. #52
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
    Posts
    25
    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    Why not get the aluminum version for less money, that would make it more reachable.
    Second that, apart from money - developing advanced skills is usually taking some time and practice with occasional crashes, and I found it was mentally much easier to get alloy frame scratched and crashed.

  53. #53
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
    Posts
    25
    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    Standard formula: Actual price x 0.5 = claimed purchase price. "Honey, it was on sale!"
    You need some side fund to cover the difference. Not gonna fly if it is paid from joint account y'know.

  54. #54
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
    Posts
    25
    Quote Originally Posted by natejc View Post
    (Playing devil's advocate): if you take DH parks out of the question, why would anyone spend more money on a full-sus when a hardtail can do all of the same stuff?
    I prefer my ass red, not blue. So does my wife.

  55. #55
    Bikesexual
    Reputation: jcd46's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    6,157
    I would get a "bike savings acct".

    Put any extra cash (lunch as mentioned) in it, and let it build up, sell the Roscoe to help finance the next bike.

    To some people that Roscoe would be a dream bike...just saying.
    The Steel Fleet:


    '14 All City MMD
    '12 Kona Unit Rigid
    TBA - There is a hint in the Purchase thread

  56. #56
    slow
    Reputation: sgltrak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    5,620
    A year into our marriage I found a bike I wanted. I waited until it was on sale at the end of the year and then I sold my current mountain bike, 3 pairs of skis, some camping gear, and some spare bike parts I had in order for the purchase to be a net zero difference to our family budget. In the 27 years since, each of my bike purchases has been funded by selling something else of mine. I keep a bike fund with cash from bike parts and bikes I have sold, so when a good deal comes up I can buy it from that fund. My bike habit has zero effect on our family budget.

  57. #57
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Toogy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Posts
    157
    I upgraded my Roscoe 8 with a Fox Rhythm 34 130mm fork and better brakes (XT) and it's a beast! Even done some downhill park stuff with it.

    But I shouldn't talk, I ended up getting a FS bike cause I wanted to ride even gnarlier stuff, but I still love the Roscoe and part of me honestly thinks it's almost as capable as the FS I got, just a little harder on the body! lol
    My MTB adventures! Subscribe & Like!

    http://toogyhowsermtb.com

  58. #58
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    41
    Quote Originally Posted by Toogy View Post
    I upgraded my Roscoe 8 with a Fox Rhythm 34 130mm fork and better brakes (XT) and it's a beast! Even done some downhill park stuff with it.

    But I shouldn't talk, I ended up getting a FS bike cause I wanted to ride even gnarlier stuff, but I still love the Roscoe and part of me honestly thinks it's almost as capable as the FS I got, just a little harder on the body! lol
    Yeah I have been looking at the fox 34s and they look sweet. I think I might stick with the roscoe and update the brakes and fork too.
    -Nate

    Current Bike: 2018 Trek Roscoe 8
    Dream Bike: 2019 Santa Cruz Bronson C S+

  59. #59
    mtbr member
    Reputation: jeremy3220's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Posts
    1,085
    Quote Originally Posted by natejc View Post
    Sounds awesome! I have hit a couple 4-5 foot drops like that on the roscoe as well. Do you think I need to stick with a 120mm on that frame due to the geometry? Or could I go a little longer?
    Ask in the Trek sub, maybe someone has experience changing the fork travel on their Roscoe.

  60. #60
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    41
    Quote Originally Posted by jcd46 View Post
    I would get a "bike savings acct".

    Put any extra cash (lunch as mentioned) in it, and let it build up, sell the Roscoe to help finance the next bike.

    To some people that Roscoe would be a dream bike...just saying.
    Great idea. I have a few different accounts that my wife and I dump money into for house savings already.

    I might end up sticking with the roscoe and doing a fork upgrade for this next year while saving for something bigger down the road.
    -Nate

    Current Bike: 2018 Trek Roscoe 8
    Dream Bike: 2019 Santa Cruz Bronson C S+

  61. #61
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    41
    Quote Originally Posted by sgltrak View Post
    A year into our marriage I found a bike I wanted. I waited until it was on sale at the end of the year and then I sold my current mountain bike, 3 pairs of skis, some camping gear, and some spare bike parts I had in order for the purchase to be a net zero difference to our family budget. In the 27 years since, each of my bike purchases has been funded by selling something else of mine. I keep a bike fund with cash from bike parts and bikes I have sold, so when a good deal comes up I can buy it from that fund. My bike habit has zero effect on our family budget.
    I do the same thing but with camera gear. I do photography gigs on the side too and I do the same thing but put my earnings from that into more gear. I might take on more work this coming year to help fund some bike stuff too.
    -Nate

    Current Bike: 2018 Trek Roscoe 8
    Dream Bike: 2019 Santa Cruz Bronson C S+

  62. #62
    Nat
    Nat is online now
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Nat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    13,098
    Quote Originally Posted by natejc View Post


    Honestly I would love to turn the roscoe 8 into an absolute machine and take it to insane places. Moab: on a hartail. CB: on a hardtail. Dolomites: on a hardtail. I think it would be pretty fun.

    I could put some money towards a cool trip with friends and/or my wife and do that. That's what its all about, right?
    I've ridden in Moab and CB both on a hardtail and on a FS, and I recall having fun every time (but my bike of choice would be FS). What's not fun is being broke, so good job keeping to your budget.

  63. #63
    Nat
    Nat is online now
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Nat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    13,098
    Quote Originally Posted by borisotto View Post
    I prefer my ass red, not blue. So does my wife.
    What does that even mean?

  64. #64
    mtbr member
    Reputation: broncbuster's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    1,197
    Maybe it's time to reevaluate your relationship with this other person. Maybe they're not that significant...

  65. #65
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    41
    Quote Originally Posted by broncbuster View Post
    Maybe it's time to reevaluate your relationship with this other person. Maybe they're not that significant...
    She is extremely significant! It's more so about adjusting my own priorities and expectation/skill level realization with respect to MTB.

    I was wondering if anyone really had any good advice and lot of people have responded pretty positively.
    -Nate

    Current Bike: 2018 Trek Roscoe 8
    Dream Bike: 2019 Santa Cruz Bronson C S+

  66. #66
    Bikesexual
    Reputation: jcd46's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    6,157
    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    What does that even mean?
    Dunnu, but sounds kinky.
    The Steel Fleet:


    '14 All City MMD
    '12 Kona Unit Rigid
    TBA - There is a hint in the Purchase thread

  67. #67
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    1,607
    Quote Originally Posted by Lone Rager View Post
    My wife and I discussed having kids or getting a dog. We figured it was better to ruin our carpets and than ruin our lives.

    You should be very happy your parents didn't think that way.

  68. #68
    since 4/10/2009
    Reputation: Harold's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    24,402
    My wife and I are at a point where we never say "no" outright to each other when we want to buy bike stuff.

    That said, we bought a house a bit over a year ago (so there were several years of saving for the house in there), and we're currently very focused on paying down other debts. We're doing pretty well for ourselves right now. Toys can still happen, but expensive ones take much longer to save for, and they have to be written specifically into the budget. I've taken the route of building bikes for my past few. It is usually more expensive, but on the flip side, I can buy a new part with a little more frequency and feel like I'm making progress. I got an unexpected gift card in the mail recently from my parents who just felt like sending one, so I bought a part for my current build.

    I also maintain a separate "recreational spending" account for bike stuff, vacations, and whatnot. We both have access to it, but money in there is budgeted specifically for fun things.

    We don't have kids, but do have several pets. Cats are pretty easy to deal with and be spontaneous. A big bowl of water, fresh litter boxes, and an automatic feeder, and they are fine for a few days. Pay someone to check in on them (it's relatively easy to find people to check in on cats), and we can go much longer. Our current dog is more difficult. He's not good camping/hiking/riding. He just wants to lay around all the time, and he gets nervous in unfamiliar places. We can't board him, so we have to pay someone (a whole lot more money) to dogsit, and either stay at our house the whole time, or send him to stay at their house the whole time. Put him in a kennel, anywhere, for any length of time, and he absolutely loses his mind. No amount of medication can calm him down unless he's unconscious.

    Our previous dog was very good outside camping and hiking (not good for riding when it was hot out, though), so we could take him almost anywhere. I want that out of our next dog, too.

  69. #69
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    1,607
    My wife cried and we fought during her Mary Poppins days. But she was/is athletically oriented; and she eventually found a group of girls to ride with, got into limited racing (including some 24 hr and 100k events) and really enjoys mountain biking. In fact, I'm getting ready to buy her a bike right now, a nicer bike than mine because my bikes are ridden hard and get beat up pretty quickly anyway.


    Edit: And we have kids (who have mountain bikes as well). Suffice to say, she doesn't give me too much trouble about the ridiculous sums I spend on this overpriced sport (of which I'm hopelessly addicted).

  70. #70
    Snow Dog
    Reputation: sXeXBMXer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Posts
    2,194
    Quote Originally Posted by natejc View Post
    Hi Everyone,


    Unfortunately, my wife thinks any form of cycling beyond an easy 3 miler through your neighborhood roads is insane and dangerous. When on vacation this past year, I rented her a mountain bike and tried to take her on a bit of single track and she ended up in tears after making it about 20 feet into the trail.
    I had a similar situation on one of our first rides on vacation, but here "out" was more severe: a massive wipe out with her flying off the berm of a snowmobile trail and about 15' through trees into the woods. We got onto a hill that was rockier than it looked from the bottom, and she got into a trench that she could not steer out of

    That was 6 years ago, and it is a good story now, with ehr bragging about the bruising and survival...but it was definitely the end of her riding on anything other than level pavement.

    Luckily, she knows how much biking means to me, and how important it is for me keeping my health up (post Heart Attack), and loves to ride the rec trails. As far as luxury/hobbie expenditures go, we each have a separate account that we put a percentage of our pay into after necessities are taken care of. She does not question how I spend mine, and I don't question how she spends hers as long as what we buy does not break the rules of safety in the house. There is never any groveling, or asking or whatever

    Luckily here hobby (and past career) is figure skating, so there is not much cost to it, and she collects carousel horse figurines.

    For me, it is biking, and sports cards. I also spend a decent amount on drums and bass guitar stuff, but that is also my job
    " ...the moonlit swamp Krampus is a king among bikes." - geraldooka

    15 Surly Krampus
    LET IT SNOW!

  71. #71
    mtbr member
    Reputation: broncbuster's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    1,197
    Quote Originally Posted by natejc View Post
    She is extremely significant! It's more so about adjusting my own priorities and expectation/skill level realization with respect to MTB.

    I was wondering if anyone really had any good advice and lot of people have responded pretty positively.
    Was just kidding but she probably wouldn't leave u just be mad for a while if u got your dream bike. It's Christmas time though so maybe play it like a Red Ryder BB gun...

  72. #72
    since 4/10/2009
    Reputation: Harold's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    24,402
    Quote Originally Posted by natejc View Post
    Unfortunately, my wife thinks any form of cycling beyond an easy 3 miler through your neighborhood roads is insane and dangerous.
    Quote Originally Posted by natejc View Post
    she does CrossFit (class based) and adores it.
    I'm going to comment on this part, specifically.

    I know a bunch of people who do/have done crossfit. If anything, the people I know who do/have done crossfit have dealt with far more injuries than those who ride bikes (I know a lot more of those). Lots of blown joints from the crossfitters. Most injuries in cyclists I know are broken bones (usually collarbones) which seem as though they have fewer long-term problems than joint injuries.

    I think you're going to have to figure out how to get her to readjust her risk expectations of your riding. So long as you're not doing a bunch of downhill stuff and park riding in high risk situations, and you're managing the risks you do take well, what you do is really no more risky than what she does.

    So if you want to get a new bike, the answer should have more to do with managing the budget than with anything else.

    And as for managing bike budgets, I absolutely do not like financing bikes if you can't afford them otherwise. I think it's another issue if you can afford the purchase, but choose to finance it and pay it off within time for credit-building purposes. My wife and I have done that with furniture and our credit score has gone up over 100 points within a year.

  73. #73
    2x is underrated
    Reputation: richj8990's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Posts
    1,504
    Quote Originally Posted by eb1888 View Post
    Your bike has a 120mm travel RS Judy 30mm stanchion air fork. This is at the very low end of performance for an air fork.

    No...I have found the very low end of performance for an air fork; his fork is 1-2 levels above mine:

    XOSS MTB Front Suspension Forks, Replacement Bike Air Shock Aluminium Alloy Fork 26/27.5 100mm Travel $135

    GUB has some air forks for as little as $98 but it's also an extra $75 to ship from China.

    None of these have rebound adjustment. It's hard to even feel the difference between lockout and the softest setting. These are about 1/2 step above a $60 Suntour XCT coil fork. They are marginally better but certainly not twice as good for 2-3x the price.

    But otherwise I agree, he could upgrade his current bike to the max, and his wife will still see the same bike in the garage. I was thinking about getting a Manitou Mattoc later, although it's about a pound more than the Suntour Axon (but $50 less).
    Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres: quod Belgiae, quod Celtae, et quod Aquitainae.

  74. #74
    2x is underrated
    Reputation: richj8990's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Posts
    1,504
    Originally Posted by natejc View Post

    (Playing devil's advocate): if you take DH parks out of the question, why would anyone spend more money on a full-sus when a hardtail can do all of the same stuff?


    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    You're dead to me now.


    LOL because the full-suspension guys covet that extra 2-3 mph downhill. If someone can go 3 mph downhill faster than they could on a hardtail, and they are looking to break some local trail record times, 3 mph is a huge difference. Otherwise, I agree, for normal riding without big jumps and other obstacles, there is no point in buying one.
    Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres: quod Belgiae, quod Celtae, et quod Aquitainae.

  75. #75
    Life's a Garden, dig it!
    Reputation: chuckha62's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    3,135
    Quote Originally Posted by broncbuster View Post
    Was just kidding but she probably wouldn't leave u just be mad for a while if u got your dream bike. It's Christmas time though so maybe play it like a Red Ryder BB gun...
    You'll shoot yer eye out!
    Why Johnny Ringo, you look like someone just walked over your grave.

  76. #76
    2x is underrated
    Reputation: richj8990's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Posts
    1,504
    Quote Originally Posted by eb1888 View Post
    You got that right.
    Chris Akrigg with a Fox 36 on a hardtail.

    The most impressive thing was his climbing skills, hopping over large rocks while going uphill. Downhill he did some cool tricks but otherwise I'd guess he's only about 25% faster than what I would be.
    Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres: quod Belgiae, quod Celtae, et quod Aquitainae.

  77. #77
    2x is underrated
    Reputation: richj8990's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Posts
    1,504
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadGrandpa View Post
    Personally, I would advise rethinking that whole "having kids" thing. I know many people enjoy them, but they are a very expensive hobby.

    Especially when they have to live at home until they are 25, 30, 35 because the cost of college has gone up about 1000% in the last 30 years. It used to be that 'normal' kids could enroll in a university at 18, and not have 20 years of debt later. That doesn't really happen now. You either have to have a scholarship, your parents are wealthy, or you simply don't get in. A 4-year college is very exclusive now. It didn't used to be that way. Universities have become 'non-profit' money-making machines.
    Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres: quod Belgiae, quod Celtae, et quod Aquitainae.

  78. #78
    mtbr member
    Reputation: BlueCheesehead's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    1,034
    I have 3 bikes. When new, all retailed for $5k+. My wife would have shot me for paying that much on any one bike. $2,200 is the most paid for any one of them, gently used (1-2 years old). Over the years I have been able to show her that by buying used (and good deals) depreciation cost is only about $100/year per bike.

  79. #79
    2x is underrated
    Reputation: richj8990's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Posts
    1,504
    Quote Originally Posted by natejc View Post
    Awesome advice. Maybe sticking with the hardtail and going out riding with my friends when I can is the direction I should go and really put more of an investment in shared interests (trips, hiking, etc)

    You can also throw the exercise guilt trip at her. "Honey, going to the gym is boring, it's the same old routine. When I bike, I get out in the fresh air, out in nature, have a good workout, it just makes me feel so alive, happier, more content when I finish the ride". Happy husband, happy life.
    Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres: quod Belgiae, quod Celtae, et quod Aquitainae.

  80. #80
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
    Posts
    25
    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    What does that even mean?
    Saddle hits my bottom on rocky climbs and with FS its easier to handle even in padded shorts. On hardtail it is amplified. ;-)

  81. #81
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Gasp4Air's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    3,261
    I prefer my ass red, not blue. So does my wife.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    What does that even mean?
    Maybe it's a Republican vs Democrat thing? I hope not, this thread will get canned.
    Use it, use it, use it while you still have it.

  82. #82
    Nat
    Nat is online now
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Nat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    13,098
    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    Especially when they have to live at home until they are 25, 30, 35 because the cost of college has gone up about 1000% in the last 30 years. It used to be that 'normal' kids could enroll in a university at 18, and not have 20 years of debt later. That doesn't really happen now. You either have to have a scholarship, your parents are wealthy, or you simply don't get in. A 4-year college is very exclusive now. It didn't used to be that way. Universities have become 'non-profit' money-making machines.
    We're facing that right now with our high school senior. One college estimates it costs $71K/year for tuition plus room & board. Yeah...

  83. #83
    jcd's best friend
    Reputation: Battery's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Posts
    1,413
    My wife accepted cycling as part of who I am. She is very happy about it due to all of my health concerns from military service. She also encouraged me to race my bike too. I might race my Transition Sentinel in a local XC race circuit just for the fun of it. I don't care about placement. I just want to do it.

    Yeah, my bike is an enduro/freeride/DH type of bike, but it doesn't matter in my local league. People run what they brung. The XC season runs from January - April. They use a timing system so it's not like some of the XC race gaggles that are found around the world.

    I also encouraged my friends to sign up with me. I have plans to race enduro at some point next year, but I plan to do it through open sign up just to try it out.

    She is also happy to see me indoor cycling with Zwift while on my road bike so I can keep losing weight and to prepare for any potential races that are coming up. Cycling kind of runs through her family which is why I picked it up and took off down the trail with them.

    I think that if you show your wife how much joy cycling brings to your life, she will accept it despite the worries.
    Trek Emonda | Transition Sentinel

  84. #84
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    41
    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    We're facing that right now with our high school senior. One college estimates it costs $71K/year for tuition plus room & board. Yeah...
    Jeez. Luckily, I found my passion in a lucrative and stable career path in engineering. I went to my state school with an overall annual cost of 28k a year, and had internships during summer and winter breaks ever single year. Graduated with only 12k in debt and paid it off in 3 years from graduation

    Now, work pays for grad school.
    -Nate

    Current Bike: 2018 Trek Roscoe 8
    Dream Bike: 2019 Santa Cruz Bronson C S+

  85. #85
    mtbr member
    Reputation: targnik's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    4,739
    Sell the Roscoe...
    Put on 20lb's...
    Act depressed (don't really do it)...
    Put up pictures of the bike you're pining for...

    Your beloved will want you to be happy & in shape ^^

    She'll then believe it's her idea for you to get that new steed & you'll be golden.

    At least that's sort of how it played out in my relationship (minus the depression & mtb pics).

    I was overweight & family/people we knew were into mountain biking.

    My wife suggested that I ride mtb's to lose weight.

    BINGO!!

    Now, no matter what I do in regard to mountain biking (within reason o/c) it has already been pre-approved ^^

    After all, it was my better half's idea & she's never wrong!!

    (heads down stairs to dial in new Fox DPS Elite rear shock he's just purchased)

    'Born to ride!'
    "Mountain biking: the under-rated and drug-free antidepressant"

  86. #86
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    41
    Quote Originally Posted by Battery View Post
    My wife accepted cycling as part of who I am. She is very happy about it due to all of my health concerns from military service. She also encouraged me to race my bike too. I might race my Transition Sentinel in a local XC race circuit just for the fun of it. I don't care about placement. I just want to do it.

    Yeah, my bike is an enduro/freeride/DH type of bike, but it doesn't matter in my local league. People run what they brung. The XC season runs from January - April. They use a timing system so it's not like some of the XC race gaggles that are found around the world.

    I also encouraged my friends to sign up with me. I have plans to race enduro at some point next year, but I plan to do it through open sign up just to try it out.

    She is also happy to see me indoor cycling with Zwift while on my road bike so I can keep losing weight and to prepare for any potential races that are coming up. Cycling kind of runs through her family which is why I picked it up and took off down the trail with them.

    I think that if you show your wife how much joy cycling brings to your life, she will accept it despite the worries.
    Actually, my wife's family has some road cycling background as well. I might consider just a small upgrade to my roscoe 8 by the way of a new fork and maybe a used road bike under 1k to get my feet wet. Training indoors with Zwift seems super sweet (sweat).
    -Nate

    Current Bike: 2018 Trek Roscoe 8
    Dream Bike: 2019 Santa Cruz Bronson C S+

  87. #87
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    41
    Quote Originally Posted by targnik View Post
    Sell the Roscoe...
    Put on 20lb's...
    Act depressed (don't really do it)...
    Put up pictures of the bike you're pining for...

    Your beloved will want you to be happy & in shape ^^

    She'll then believe it's her idea for you to get that new steed & you'll be golden.

    At least that's sort of how it played out in my relationship (minus the depression & mtb pics).

    I was overweight & family/people we knew were into mountain biking.

    My wife suggested that I ride mtb's to lose weight.

    BINGO!!

    Now, no matter what I do in regard to mountain biking (within reason o/c) it has already been pre-approved ^^

    After all, it was my better half's idea & she's never wrong!!

    (heads down stairs to dial in new Fox DPS Elite rear shock he's just purchased)

    'Born to ride!'

    By God...you are a genius.

    Plan Z can't POSSIBLY FAIL!
    -Nate

    Current Bike: 2018 Trek Roscoe 8
    Dream Bike: 2019 Santa Cruz Bronson C S+

  88. #88
    mtbr member
    Reputation: 2obscura's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    139
    Been married 2 years now, I have a wife's worst nightmare of hobbies, MTB and drag racing. I wouldn't recommend going in debt for a hobby. Save up the cash and buy what you want or as close as you can get (reality is a B!^@&). Break it down like my wife did to make me pull the trigger. I was actually having a hard time letting go of my cash last month to buy a new bike. We took the price of my old bike (rode for 4 years) and using strava and bad memory we figured roughly how many rides I went on and it came out to something like $ 0.25 per ride minus replacing upgrading parts. Sound pretty cheap if you do it that way. Like a quarter in the rocking horse in front of the grocery store. Makes more since to drop coin when you see what it actually cost each use.

    New bike wasn't my dream but close enough, I did not want affect our financial goals and situation, it was the best fit and completely my choice. She was fine with one double what I paid. She is worse than taking your riding buddy to a bike. I used her CC and gave her my cash to buy the bike, her card has a higher cash back percentage than mine. Any % of 3500-5k is a considerably amount of cash. Something to think about if you pay it off immediately.

    Other side of the coin, you can pick your battle. I have ended two very close to marriage relationships over my racecar. its a give and take. Choose wisely.......
    I don't always listen to slayer, but when I do so do the neighbors.

  89. #89
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sturge's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    887
    I'm sure the $5K dreambike would be nice but it's good you are taking input and considering some sacrifices. That's what relationships are all about...there's give and take and you need to be understanding of what's important to each other and figure out a way to make it work. Good for you.

    I'm 59 and have been able to maintain my passions (I have more than one) by making some sacrifices. My wife is not into mountain biking but she knows it's part of me. Looking ahead and riding with your kids is also fun. I got my son riding and once his skills improved we spent a weekend at Kingdom Trails when he was 13. He ripped everything and loved it. He's 22 now and has since lost interest. I gave him the chance to catch the same passion but he's more into motorcycles which is fine (I got one of them too!).

    After all these years, I've never spent more than $2300 on a bike and still ride 3X/week. I get more bike for my dollar buying direct and do all my own setup/mntc. These days there are so many great FS bikes in the $3K that will not limit you. For me, carbon fiber is not worth the extra $ for a pound or so. Plus, being 6'4" and 220lbs I have broken my share of frames so I'm less focused on lightweight and more focused on durability.

    I was just at Cady Hill in late Sept...Florence, Snake, Bear, etc. CT terrain is pretty boney with no grooming and less flow so it was an awesome change of pace for me. Wanted to hit Millstone but it was wet/rainy so we headed to Stowe.
    12 Santa Cruz Heckler
    18 Kona Process 153 AL/DL (27.5)...

  90. #90
    jcd's best friend
    Reputation: Battery's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Posts
    1,413
    Quote Originally Posted by natejc View Post
    Actually, my wife's family has some road cycling background as well. I might consider just a small upgrade to my roscoe 8 by the way of a new fork and maybe a used road bike under 1k to get my feet wet. Training indoors with Zwift seems super sweet (sweat).
    I am doing Zwift 101 training plans and wow. They give you a damn good workout in 30-60 minutes. I do quite a bit of road cycling too, but these training plans are just flat out crazy! I now see where my true fitness lies after riding with Zwift. All you need is a basic indoor trainer and a speed sensor that uses Bluetooth or ANT+. You can find either cheap on Craigslist. I also use a heart rate sensor when I road cycle. I picked up my Cycleops Fluid2 trainer for $150 and it was hardly used.

    From what I understand, you can hook up a mountain bike to some of the trainers but you may need a special axle pin to make it work. You should be able to find them through the trainer manufacturer.
    Trek Emonda | Transition Sentinel

  91. #91
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    41
    Quote Originally Posted by 2obscura View Post
    Been married 2 years now, I have a wife's worst nightmare of hobbies, MTB and drag racing. I wouldn't recommend going in debt for a hobby. Save up the cash and buy what you want or as close as you can get (reality is a B!^@&). Break it down like my wife did to make me pull the trigger. I was actually having a hard time letting go of my cash last month to buy a new bike. We took the price of my old bike (rode for 4 years) and using strava and bad memory we figured roughly how many rides I went on and it came out to something like $ 0.25 per ride minus replacing upgrading parts. Sound pretty cheap if you do it that way. Like a quarter in the rocking horse in front of the grocery store. Makes more since to drop coin when you see what it actually cost each use.

    New bike wasn't my dream but close enough, I did not want affect our financial goals and situation, it was the best fit and completely my choice. She was fine with one double what I paid. She is worse than taking your riding buddy to a bike.

    Other side of the coin, you can pick your battle. I have ended two very close to marriage relationships over my racecar. its a give and take. Choose wisely.......
    Ah a data guy....I did the same thing but came to a number >>.25 for myself.

    My wife stated that she would never want me to stop mountain biking despite her safety concerns of it. And 5k is a lot to spend on a bike after only riding seriously for less than a year, regardless of your confidence or skill. Luckily, I have a pretty rad bike and an awesome group to ride with. I don't have a huge reason to upgrade to a dream rig quite yet.
    -Nate

    Current Bike: 2018 Trek Roscoe 8
    Dream Bike: 2019 Santa Cruz Bronson C S+

  92. #92
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    41
    Quote Originally Posted by Battery View Post
    I am doing Zwift 101 training plans and wow. They give you a damn good workout in 30-60 minutes. I do quite a bit of road cycling too, but these training plans are just flat out crazy! I now see where my true fitness lies after riding with Zwift. All you need is a basic indoor trainer and a speed sensor that uses Bluetooth or ANT+. You can find either cheap on Craigslist. I also use a heart rate sensor when I road cycle. I picked up my Cycleops Fluid2 trainer for $150 and it was hardly used.

    From what I understand, you can hook up a mountain bike to some of the trainers but you may need a special axle pin to make it work. You should be able to find them through the trainer manufacturer.
    Thank you for your insight! And thank you for your service too!
    -Nate

    Current Bike: 2018 Trek Roscoe 8
    Dream Bike: 2019 Santa Cruz Bronson C S+

  93. #93
    mtbr member
    Reputation: twd953's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    865
    Quote Originally Posted by bingemtbr View Post
    Also, this notion that "life" stops when you have kids is complete and utter BS. Your kids don't need a tablet, TV and 22hrs indoors. They need to get dirty playing in dirt, exhaust themselves running outside, and be introduced to new people, places and experiences.

    I roll my eyes every time I hear this tripe. FWIW, I was 21 when we had our first born. I never "took time off" from riding. I'd find time in the off hours or take the kid with me (paved trail, on a Burley bugger). Today 25yrs later, my oldest son regularly rides and races mtbs with me.
    Amen Brother! 4 kids (oldest is 17, youngest is 10), never stopped riding and racing because of the kids, I just brought them along. My riding time got a bit truncated for a bit due to being the swim team taxi when all 4 of my kids were swimming competitively, but now my oldest has his license so no 5AM swim practice or 7pm daily pick ups for me.

    My kids grew up in the back of a bike trailer, on tag-alongs, and on back of the tandems. They all love riding. My wife rides too, but doesn't get out all that regularly. But she absolutely loves it when I take the kids riding.

    Kids are portable, they aren't fragile, and when they are young at least, most love doing what mom and dad are into doing. Better chance of having them do things with you when you get older, if you spend time having fun with them when they are younger.
    No dig no whine

  94. #94
    mtbr member
    Reputation: mLeier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Posts
    173
    Quote Originally Posted by solarplex View Post
    Asking for forgiveness is easier than asking for permission.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    How is your marriage Solarplex?


    Nate - I feel your pain. I want a new bike too. We just got into mountain biking last year and I am lucky that both my husband and I absolutely love it and do it together, and also ride with our 9 and 11 year old kids. Since we weren't bikers when we got our bikes, we didn't know what we wanted and I feel like I have reached my bike's limitations as well for the type of riding we typically do.

    My (on paper) dream bike is the 2019, full carbon, Liv Intrigue Advanced 1 for $5,500. My husband is all for me getting a new bike, but that is still a lot of money. Especially since we DO have kids and when the oldest gets my hand-me-down FS bike, the youngest is going to need one too. He can't be the only one with a HT! That boosts the costs even more.

    Here is what I am doing to work towards my new bike. I am cleaning out our house and our lives of all of the junk that we don't need and selling that crap on Kijiji. Every penny of that goes into an envelope for my new bike fund. Bottle returns - envelope. Any other money that comes my way - envelope. When I did work, my husband and I each set aside a percentage of our pay cheques (we did 10%, but depending on your finances, more or less would work just as well) that was for our own "fun money" that could be spent/wasted on anything without the other getting upset. The rest went to our joint account to pay for everything else. That worked really well too. I haven't worked since having kids though, so not an option anymore. Also, for a while, my husband and I had considered getting a house keeper. Instead, we literally paid ourselves. We spent a few hours one day/week really cleaning the house and then put the $60 cash that we would have paid the cleaner right into an envelope. We used that money for something fun for us that we wouldn't have done otherwise. There are creative ways like this to squirrel money away, but none of them are fast.

    In the meantime, I am going to spend the summer riding the bike that I have and trying out every other bike that I can get my hands on. This next bike has got to last me a while! I am going to really try to enjoy the process of finding the perfect bike for me. As long as I have SOMETHING to ride, have of the enjoyment of getting a new bike is the anticipation and the research and the demo rides. Hopefully by the time the end of season sales start next summer, I will know what I want, get a good deal on it, and have enough money set aside to at least soften the blow of an expensive bike!

    Hope you figure out something that works for you! Remember that the most important thing is to just keep getting out there and having fun no matter what you are riding!

  95. #95
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    7,390
    Always remember: this month's $5200 bike is next months $3500 bike.

    MSRP is for suckas!
    Sinister Bikes
    Wraith Bicycles
    Sunday River Mtn Bike Park
    NEMBA
    Wachusett Brewing Co.

  96. #96
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
    Posts
    25
    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    I've ridden in Moab and CB both on a hardtail and on a FS, and I recall having fun every time (but my bike of choice would be FS).
    Slickrock should be fun on hardtail, something like Porcupine Rim is doable, but FS would really help.

  97. #97
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    41
    Quote Originally Posted by mLeier View Post
    Hope you figure out something that works for you! Remember that the most important thing is to just keep getting out there and having fun no matter what you are riding!
    A lot of great stuff in your comment, mLeier thanks for sharing!

    I think I might try something similar! But for the time being, I think I might stick with my roscoe 8 and put some more miles on it after a fork upgrade. Maybe get a bike bag and do some trips with it to.

    I am still fairly new to the sport and have a lot to learn before I jump into a bronson I think!
    -Nate

    Current Bike: 2018 Trek Roscoe 8
    Dream Bike: 2019 Santa Cruz Bronson C S+

  98. #98
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    41
    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Always remember: this month's $5200 bike is next months $3500 bike.

    MSRP is for suckas!
    Very true, this time next year it will be discounted a bunch! I'm sure you will see another wave of bronsons leave stock when the sales hit.
    -Nate

    Current Bike: 2018 Trek Roscoe 8
    Dream Bike: 2019 Santa Cruz Bronson C S+

  99. #99
    slow
    Reputation: sgltrak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    5,620
    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    Especially when they have to live at home until they are 25, 30, 35 because the cost of college has gone up about 1000% in the last 30 years. It used to be that 'normal' kids could enroll in a university at 18, and not have 20 years of debt later. That doesn't really happen now. You either have to have a scholarship, your parents are wealthy, or you simply don't get in. A 4-year college is very exclusive now. It didn't used to be that way. Universities have become 'non-profit' money-making machines.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    We're facing that right now with our high school senior. One college estimates it costs $71K/year for tuition plus room & board. Yeah...
    Our daughter is at the local state university to allow her to take advantage of lower living expenses and in-state tuition. She had some minimal acedemic scholarship help the first year and we helped with her first 4 years. Since she changed majors a few times, she is not yet done. She takes classes as she can afford to pay cash for them. If she doesn't have the cash, she sits out a semester. She will graduate next year after 6.5 years with no loans. Our son chose not to attend university, so he started adult life with no debt, too. We've had to watch the budget more carefully than if we didn't have them, but having kids has not really held us back. I was XC skiing with our daughter on my chest at 2 months and had her in the bike trailer shortly thereafter. We had our son in the trailer about the same age.

  100. #100
    Bikesexual
    Reputation: jcd46's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    6,157
    Also, save for a Gravel Bike
    The Steel Fleet:


    '14 All City MMD
    '12 Kona Unit Rigid
    TBA - There is a hint in the Purchase thread

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. How is your significant other about bike purchases?
    By Alias530 in forum General Discussion
    Replies: 62
    Last Post: 12-12-2014, 10:28 AM
  2. Has your significant other suggest you take a newbie riding?
    By Cucucachu in forum Riding Passion and Stories
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: 02-08-2013, 04:59 PM
  3. Photos of your significant other on the Net? (Prolly NSFW)
    By Drummerboy1975 in forum Off Camber (off topic)
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 05-07-2012, 08:16 PM
  4. Replies: 20
    Last Post: 03-13-2006, 06:11 AM
  5. Riding with your Significant Other
    By Lighty_ in forum Riding Passion and Stories
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 04-11-2005, 02:42 PM

Members who have read this thread: 360

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

THE SITE

ABOUT MTBR

VISIT US AT

© Copyright 2019 VerticalScope Inc. All rights reserved.