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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackbombay View Post

    I'm a spaz!
    This man speaks the truth
    "We LOVE cows! They make trails for us.....

    And then we eat them."

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  2. #102
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    its not always about fitness. I heard or read a quote many years ago that said " climbers are born, not made". My interpretation of that quote is that you are born with a certain body type( in relation to cycling) that can either climb or not. Personally, I'm not a great climber, I can climb probably better that 60% of riders in my age or fitness level, but regardless of how fit I am, I don't improve exponentially.
    I usually use something like this as an example, you take Chris Froome (great climber) and Fernando Gavaria ( great sprinter) and no matter how much you train either Froome to be a top sprinter or Gavaria to be a top climber, its just not going to happen. There has been a couple of exceptions to that rule, Lauret Jalabert, for instance.

    While I love to climb, I accept that I'm and average climber, but excel in downhill, flow, flats, rollers and sprints, I can accept that.
    Last edited by Hurricane Jeff; 2 Weeks Ago at 05:42 AM.
    EXODUX Jeff

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackbombay View Post
    None of it is easy, and it never gets easier, you just go faster ;-)



    What's the difference between a sustained heart rate of 175 on flat and a sustained heart rate of 175 on a hill? I don't think there is one.
    I don't think this is always possible. Mainly in situations where there are rocks, roots, and punchy grade changes which require you to suddenly pedal hard for short bursts to keep momentum while fighting to keep your front wheel on the ground, or things which require you to lift wheels up to get over. I know that changes my heart rate quickly, especially in the heat. Sure riding up a gravel path for a few miles it is easier to just throw it in a low gear and go slow, but get on a real steep single track trail and that is not always the case. Lower gears aren't always an answer either on real steep stuff where they give you too much leverage and make your front wheel want to come up.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackbombay View Post
    In the mountains drafting doesn't help much as you are gong slow, so it comes down to rider fitness, on the flats that is not the case.


    IMO a technical climb and a big climb are different things. A big climb with lots of tech is going to wear you down more than a big climb with minimal tech. And a non tech big climb shouldn't really wear you out any more than that same amount of time riding on flat ground.
    Pedaled in New England? Lots of chunk and tech, everywhere. Up and down. A non tech big climb? That would only be on a road bike for the most part.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by theMeat View Post
    A hill is one thing, a mountain another
    Indeed.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackbombay View Post
    Yea, and no, I mean, if you feel crappy when climbing a mountain, use a lower gear. If you don't have a lower gear buy more gears!
    That doesn't always work on steep mountain trails, except for a small percentage of non-mortals. I mean not all mountain trails are buffed out super highways that get daily traffic. Some are super steep grinds that can cook mere mortal thighs pretty quickly. Lower gears aren't always a magic bullet.

  7. #107
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    Speaking in terms of HR, I'm like one of the fellas above.
    I am an average climber at best. I can get my way up there but it's not easy.
    I'll be breathing heavier than I do on flats, but not scary heavy.

    My HR riding simple trails can't spike (unless I stand to sprint) as much as climbing a hill. My legs are not strong enough to power me fast enough to get the same HR as the steep, slow speed HR.

    No way can I get a 190, seated, cruising along on the relatively easy path but on a steep sustained climb I sure as heck can.

    So -how many watts am I producing to go fast on flats at a lower HR than a slow climb with an elevated HR?

    I don't know if it is a strength thing or what, but I have never been able to power down for long periods of time and go fast. Strength seems to weaken quickly after a burst, however I can keep climbing for an hour and keep pretty stable speeds, conditions dependent. Meaning, I will slow or speed on a climb if there is a punchy spot, or if I'm maneuvering over obstacles regardless of grade.

  8. #108
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    Couple data examples real quick. Not perfect examples, but an idea. First one I did in 45 minutes, AVG HR/PWR: 159/279. The second one was 28 minutes (long enough to get a good idea), AVG HR/PWR: 152/266. Both numbers are relatively close, not massively different. But one was on flat road, the other was a climb. Both on the same bike with the same power meter. Different days, but the weather was similarly good on both days.

    https://www.strava.com/activities/22...ts/57113715955

    https://www.strava.com/activities/23...ts/59239195391

    The hard part about pushing on the flat is the mental part. Mentally it is easier to attack a climb than a flat. The hard part about pushing on the climbs is power/weight ratio. If the climb requires more power than you are capable of producing for X amount of time, then you just can't make it.

    I was riding with a retired pro woman climber yesterday. She was producing the same power on the flats as on the climbs. But it was easier for her to attack the climbs. I was actually trying to stay on her wheel as motivation to go hard. I figured she would drop me eventually.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crankout View Post
    Eff it...I'm buying an e-bike.

    Just found out that there are direct drive motors that weigh 3-6 lbs and are removable, all you need is a large chainring on the other side of the crankset, a 2nd chain, small battery, and controller. Putting on/taking them off takes a few minutes. WTF! Shuttles may be a thing of the past soon.
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  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sidewalk View Post
    Watts and horsepower are exactly the same thing.

    Not to be anal, but that really depends on the power source and the drivetrain.

    Electric cars have watts that are converted to more torque than horsepower, compared with overhead cam internal combustion engines. Watts and torque can also be a function of speed as well:

    Torque (lb.in) = 63,025 x Power (HP) / Speed (RPM)
    Power (HP) = Torque (lb.in) x Speed (RPM) / 63,025.
    Torque (N.m) = 9.5488 x Power (kW) / Speed (RPM)
    Power (kW) = Torque (N.m) x Speed (RPM) / 9.5488
    From Ancient Times - Scarlet Skies Burn to Ash

  11. #111
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    I climbed some hills tonight. 2,650ft in 1.5 hours to be exact.
    Rigid SS 29er
    SS 29+
    Fat Lefty
    SS cyclocross
    Full Sus 29er (Yuck)

    Stop asking how much it weighs and just go ride it.

  12. #112
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    Nice job stopping at exactly 90 minutes.

  13. #113
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    Ok ok, 1:36:52
    Rigid SS 29er
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    Fat Lefty
    SS cyclocross
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    Stop asking how much it weighs and just go ride it.

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by *OneSpeed* View Post
    I climbed some hills tonight. 2,650ft in 1.5 hours to be exact.
    was it rest night?
    always mad and usually drunk......

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmg View Post
    was it rest night?
    Someone said "go", what was I supposed to do? All these guys were chasing me.
    Rigid SS 29er
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    Stop asking how much it weighs and just go ride it.

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    Not to be anal, but that really depends on the power source and the drivetrain.

    Electric cars have watts that are converted to more torque than horsepower, compared with overhead cam internal combustion engines. Watts and torque can also be a function of speed as well:

    Torque (lb.in) = 63,025 x Power (HP) / Speed (RPM)
    Power (HP) = Torque (lb.in) x Speed (RPM) / 63,025.
    Torque (N.m) = 9.5488 x Power (kW) / Speed (RPM)
    Power (kW) = Torque (N.m) x Speed (RPM) / 9.5488
    Watts and Horsepower are both measurements of power just like inches and feet are both measurement of length. I suppose they are not "exactly" the same as 1HP is about 736 watts, but both are units of power and can be used interchangeably with the right conversion factor. Torque and speed affect both in the same way. Power of any source/drivetrain can be expressed in either unit. When I am putting out 368 watts on a bike, that is about 1/2 HP.

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    Not to be anal, but that really depends on the power source and the drivetrain.

    Electric cars have watts that are converted to more torque than horsepower, compared with overhead cam internal combustion engines. Watts and torque can also be a function of speed as well:

    Torque (lb.in) = 63,025 x Power (HP) / Speed (RPM)
    Power (HP) = Torque (lb.in) x Speed (RPM) / 63,025.
    Torque (N.m) = 9.5488 x Power (kW) / Speed (RPM)
    Power (kW) = Torque (N.m) x Speed (RPM) / 9.5488
    Torque is only part of a formula for calculating HP. HP/watts is work done. Torque is just the force applied to a rotating shaft. I can put out 1000 ft/lbs of torque on a crank and not produce a single watt or horsepower.

    Electric cars produce HP the same as an ICe engine as far as work goes. They use a different energy source and convert it in a different way. But the output shaft of an electric motor produce HP just like a gas engine, or turbine engine, or any other type of engine. Watts are just a better measurement system than HP, just like meters are a better way to measure distance.

    I don't know why you specified "OHV" engines. There is nothing special about how an OHV engine produces power compared to any other sort of reciprocating ICE engine. Hell, even a gas turbine uses the same "4 stroke" model for converting fuel to output energy, just in a different fashion.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCheesehead View Post
    The argument here is all theoretical. If holding the same wattage, there is no resting whether going up hill, flat, downhill, head wind or tail wind. One must still work to maintain that wattage. If wattage and RPMs are held constant, the effort should feel that same with the exception of muscles employed due to body position.

    The problem with the theory is that is rarely reality.
    Yes, in theory but typically not in practice.
    The only important thing these days, is rhythm and melody. Rhythm...and melody.

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by *OneSpeed* View Post
    I climbed some hills tonight. 2,650ft in 1.5 hours to be exact.
    Naples? Bristol?
    The only important thing these days, is rhythm and melody. Rhythm...and melody.

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sidewalk View Post
    Torque is only part of a formula for calculating HP. HP/watts is work done. Torque is just the force applied to a rotating shaft. I can put out 1000 ft/lbs of torque on a crank and not produce a single watt or horsepower.
    One correction and one nit to pick:

    Correction - Work is not HP/watts. Work is the application of force for a distance. In cycling terms, it takes a certain amount of work to climb a hill, regardless of how fast one climbs the hill. Power is a measure of how fast work can be done. Two riders of the same weight can climb the same hill at the same speed (thus at the same power) in two ways:

    a.) Hard gear, low cadence & high force (high torque) (mashing)
    b.) Easy gear, high cadence & lower force (spinning)

    Nit - Torque dos not require a shaft to actually rotate. Applying a 1,000 ft*lb torque to a crank that does not rotate would be an example of producing zero HP (or watts).

  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    Not to be anal, but that really depends on the power source and the drivetrain.
    No watts are measure of power, So is horsepower. Just like an inch and a milimeter measure the same thing a measure of distance. Same thing just different unit of measure.

    Torque is NOT power.
    Joe
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  22. #122
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    Power = rate of force (strength) + speed

  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jetta2010 View Post
    I don't understand why you guys struggle on the ascents. I just push a button on my ebike and let technology do the work. smarter not harder
    I suppose pussies need to get up the hill, too
    "We LOVE cows! They make trails for us.....

    And then we eat them."

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  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by 101 View Post
    I invite the OP to do come do this trail and then report back on “it’s the same as riding flat but slower”

    I try to avoid entering the state of Colorado, but I may be down there for a bike ride this summer, I'll see if I can work this one in. But, as I posted earlier,

    Quote Originally Posted by jackbombay View Post
    IMO a technical climb and a big climb are different things.




    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    Even a gradual climb is harder than flat.
    Pedal harder.



    Quote Originally Posted by rideit View Post
    I suppose pussies need to get up the hill, too

  25. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackbombay View Post




    Haha...the funny thing about that comment is that I got a negative rep and comment from someone who couldn’t see that it was a sarcastic slap back to an idiotic comment.
    Just for the record, I rode my ebike (commuter with saddlebags!) up a local tough hill last week, and actually got the KOM.
    I deleted that shit as fast as I could, but it was pretty funny.
    "We LOVE cows! They make trails for us.....

    And then we eat them."

    Thrill Bikers Unite!

  26. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackbombay View Post




    Haha...the funny thing about that comment is that I got a negative rep and comment from someone who couldn’t see that it was a sarcastic slap back to an idiotic comment.
    Just for the record, I rode my ebike (commuter with saddlebags!) up a local tough hill last week, and actually got the KOM.
    I deleted that shit from Strava as fast as I could, but it was pretty funny.
    "We LOVE cows! They make trails for us.....

    And then we eat them."

    Thrill Bikers Unite!

  27. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by rideit View Post
    I deleted that shit from Strava as fast as I could, but it was pretty funny.
    A guy I know occasionally commutes by eBike. He takes a screenshot right after it uploads of his awards, then changes it to eBike

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